Week 2 (Days 008-014): What did Job's friends believe?

Hey Bible readers! Welcome to TBR Deep Dive. I'm Emma Daughter. I'm Kirsten McCloskey. And we are so excited to dive into this week's questions. Yeah. We read a lot of Job this week and I heard Job is your favorite book of the Bible, Kirsten. Is that right? I like Job. I wouldn't necessarily say it's my favorite, but it has a lot of gold in it. It does. A lot of nuggets. It does. It's hard, but it has the nuggets. Hopefully we can uncover some more of those nuggets in this episode. So the first question is really just a general Job question. I don't have a passage to pair it with, but the question is, is it possible that Job is a parable or other type of moral story instead of a real story? Now, I know the most common view is the real story, and we can get to that in a second. Yep. Why might somebody think that this is a parable or moral teaching? Yeah. This is something that actually happened. Right. So, yes. Okay. So that's a really good question. And let me – okay. So let me kind of start there and then we'll circle back because we do need to kind of clarify some things with this question. Let's clarify. So first of all, when people view Job more as a moral teaching or as a myth, keyword myth, not historical account, it in essence comes down to the mindset about they see the events in Job as unrealistic. So we have Satan walking around in heaven at the beginning, and then we have God answering Job out of the whirlwind at the end. So the miraculous, kind of the supernatural qualities that we see are what some people would point to to be like, there's no way that this happened. But what I would say to that is that we see that all throughout Scripture. And both of us, obviously, would take the side that this is a real historical event. Job was a real person. I do think it was. This happened to him. Yeah. And so there is, you know, there are some people that are on the other side. But I think one thing that we really need to remember is kind of what the Bible is doing. So the Bible has historical information in it, but it's also not a history book. It's not a textbook. Right. That's not the goal of what these authors and what God through these authors as their writing was trying to do. and so what we want to see with Job is we we want to recognize that Job was a real person there's there's lots of evidence to point towards him being a real person and also we want to see like what the theological interpretation of his story is and that can be kind of interesting but interesting yeah so I do also just one one kind of other thing that I think is important here is that most Bible scholars who hold a high view of scripture, meaning it's authoritative, it's God's word. They trust the Bible to be the Bible. They trust the Bible to be the Bible. Do not think that Job is a parable or a myth or a moral teaching. And that would be where I would fall as well. And I think you as well. Yes, likewise. Yep. So holding a high view of scripture, we see the Bible as authoritative and this, and we see what's in it as describing true historical events. But again, with that, with those different kinds of interpretations, that the way that the author is writing the story, the way that God is using these words on the page to do something with what's happening here, you know, that's what makes it unique. So for those people who don't, who are less traditional, who maybe don't view the Bible as God's authoritative word, why might they think? And I want to be careful because I don't want us to be mutually exclusive because I do think there are Bible-believing Christians who think that Job is – the book of Job is God's word but who think it's a parable, not a historical story. So you could be a Christian and think, a Bible-believing faithful Christian, and hold the conviction that Job is a hypothetical example of some kind. Right, right. In the way that Jesus does parables. Yes, but generally speaking, that's not a very common viewpoint. And it should cause us to ask some questions. I think so. So why might someone hold that viewpoint? Why might they think it's a parable or a moral story? I mean, I think because some of the events that take place in it are just, they're pretty extreme. Okay. What happens to Job is very intense. And so some people would maybe think, okay, well, there's no way that this could have actually happened. I see. I see. Okay. Yeah. So maybe some – then it would be helpful to look at some reasons why people would say, hey, no, this is not a parable. This is true. One of those reasons would be the character profile of Job at the beginning of the book. We learn a lot about him. We get where he's from. The land of ooze, us. How do you say it? I think I say us. Us. He's from the land of us. I like ooze, though. Ooze. He's from the land of ooze. His financial situation. We know that he's loaded. I mean, he's – There's a lot of information about him. He's wealthy. His character and his faith in God is solid. The details about his family, they're healthy and flourishing. All of that is not normal in a parable. Exactly. Right. Parables in scripture don't typically use names or major details like this. So this probably means he was a real person. Another reason why it's probably not a parable or an allegory is that both Ezekiel and James reference Job in situations that point to him being real. Yeah. I think that's a really key point. For instance, in Ezekiel, God includes Job in a list of people who are righteous, like Noah is among them. And it would be weird to put a fictitious character, possibly Job, in a list of real people. So that leads scholars to say, hey, this seems to be a real story about a real person. And if you do think Job is a parable, the important thing to remember is that parables are stories that teach truth or stories used to teach truth. So if you think it's a parable, you can't throw out the truth as the book of Job teaches us. The truth remains either way. Yep. Yep. I think that's a great point. Yep. Good. That's all I got. Yeah. And so just for clarity for the rest of this episode as we talk about Job, we're viewing Job, his situation, his story as a true historical event that took place. Agreed. Good. Okay. Here we go. Next question, also more of a general question. so about Job the only thing you read this week can you give an overview of each of Job's friends and what they believe or do they each basically say the same thing I get lost in the speeches thank you for that honesty that's real that is real we appreciate that honesty and can I say me too me too but we studied it we dove deep let's unpack Okay. So we've got the friends Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu. How about I take the first two? Okay. So let's start with Eliphaz. He talks a lot about how the innocent prosper. I mean, a lot. And so he believes that Job must have done something wrong to cause his own suffering. And when Job says, hey, that's not true, Eliphaz then changes his tune a bit and says, this happened because you didn't fear God. That's kind of the two main things, the innocent prosper and you must not be fearing God. And then when Job is like, no, I do fear God. That's not it. He just goes back to the first one. You're not innocent. So Eliphaz is offering worldly wisdom. You can sum it up. His message is do good, get good. Do bad, get bad. That's wrong. This isn't good advice. Then we get Bildad. He reiterates Eliphaz's argument that Job has done wrong. But the distinct difference is that Bildad urges Job to repent, which Eliphaz does not. And if Job repents, Bildad thinks, then God will restore everything. So Bildad's like, hey, the problem is still on you. You're in the wrong. But if you repent, things will get better. And then he warns Job. He's like, hey, God, you got to pay attention. and God punishes people who don't repent. You don't want to be that person. And his third speech seems to be evidence that all three friends are running out of ideas, the first three friends, because he starts to focus more on the brokenness of humanity and all people are sinners. And he might have thought if Job realized, like sin is a problem for all people then certainly it a problem for me too which honestly isn terrible logic I know But that not the issue here as we know So both Eliphaz and Bildad they aren doing a great job at advising Job At advising Job, yes. Okay, so then we have Zophar, which is Job's third friend to weigh in. And he is probably the strongest in his rebuke of Job. And so he basically is like, Job, you got off easy. You deserved way worse than what happened to you, which is kind of interesting that that's the take that he has. And then later, Zophar says if Job committed some kind of wickedness, which we know that Job didn't, but Zophar feels certain that he did, then Job should suffer for it. So Zophar basically is seeing Job's situation as Job being rightly punished for his sin or his wickedness. So there's obviously these streams that are kind of running through all of these guys, each with their own little hint of, oh, I'm focusing on this more than this. But they're all wrong. They're all wrong and they all have that general principle. Okay. And so they're similar message. So the way that Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar all have that similar message is this. Job is suffering because he did something wrong. Okay? So that's kind of the underlying. So if you're suffering, it's because you're an unrepentant sinner. Because on the other hand, God blesses the righteous and he punishes the wicked. And that's the only way to think about the world. And that's kind of where they go off the rails is that that is not the only way to do that. That's not the only option. It's not the only option. Okay, and then finally, we have Elihu. Things get a little better. Yeah, a little better, which is interesting. A tiny bit. Yeah, because Elihu doesn't end up getting rebuked at the end. So he must be a little bit more on track. But so he's the last of Job's friends to speak, and he has two concerns or rebukes. So the first is for Job, and then he also actually rebukes Job's friends. So Job 32, 2-3 says, Elihu burned with anger at Job because he justified himself rather than God. So Elihu's basically saying, no, like God is always in the right. You should not be justifying yourself. And then Elihu also burned with anger at Job's three friends because they had found no answer, although they had declared Job to be in the wrong. So that's what we— They didn't have a reason. Yep. Yep. That's good. So that sums it up. That sums it up. So some things I think we can learn from Job's friends. Presence matters more than words. Like at first, Job's suffering, his friends did the right thing by showing up. But then the longer they were there and the more they started to talk, the more trouble and harm they caused. So I think there's a warning for us when our friends are suffering. How are we meeting them in their suffering? When the inclination might be to just fill the space or the silence with words. That's not always best. I also think the key mistake the three made was assuming suffering means sin. Exactly. Suffering does not necessarily mean sin. And a cause and effect theology can get you in a lot of trouble. It's really dangerous. Yep. And then lastly, I think trying to use theology without compassion misses God's heart. That's a great point. And they were going to Job and trying to logically justify or explain his suffering. but God's heart is truth with grace. Yep. Not just truth or what they thought was truth. Right? Yeah. That's a really good point. Yeah. I think Job can be a book where when we read a lot of speeches that are bad examples, it can be really hard to relate or to know even what I'm reading. Like, this is right. This is wrong. So I shouldn't do this. Pulling out those takeaways can be a challenge. But I found that studying this section to be really encouraging. But we got to go to the next question. It comes from day eight. And the text is Job 19.25. In this recaptain, in the recaptain's Facebook group, they asked, or they noticed, I should say, terribly mentioned that this verse was foreshadowing the resurrection of Christ, which is cool. But would Job really have known this? Job 19.25 says, For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last, He will stand upon the earth. Yep. Yeah, that's a great question and probably one that will maybe come up kind of throughout our readings of the Old Testament because this is actually something that happens a lot where God's people say things about God that in the end ends up having like a double meaning. And so it means something to them in their present situation, and then it also means something to us later in our bigger context of having the whole of Scripture and church history to see all these different things. Totally. So, yeah, keep going. Yeah. So think of these Old Testament prophecies that had double meanings where what was said God was going to do in their immediate context, and that was probably all they understood. And then in hindsight, earlier New Testament writers, so like, you know, we see Paul doing this a lot. We see even— Matthew? Yep. Matthew does this. We see Peter and Acts when he's referencing back to Joel. People have this new—it's like— As they're opened. Yes. As this unfolds, they're like, oh, that's what you meant. You know, you meant something then, God. God meant something then to the people that he spoke to or people meant something then as they were speaking. But we see the bigger picture. Totally. I think getting at the like what would this have culturally meant for Job. So the word Job used to describe redeemer or the word specifically that he used for redeemer is the same word that leads our English translations to kinsman redeemer when we get to the book of Ruth. And this just describes a love that is willing to pay the price for the object of its affection. So in Exodus, the word is used to describe God as the God who redeems his people from slavery. He rescues. So whatever Job was expecting, he was expecting that it would be for his benefit. Yeah. And that may be as much as he knew. Right. And I also when I was looking at that word, it can also be a relative who was going to pay for someone to be released. So redeeming, buying back. And so Job could have potentially been thinking about some person who would have redeemed or restored his honor. Yes. Yes. But also it could have been redeeming or restoring his honor after he died. Yeah. So – or the way that someone could have, like, handled his estate. But again, there is some sense of an afterlife here. So there's some sense where Job has, like – maybe there's something beyond the grave for him. But we don't know exactly, like, what he was thinking. Yeah. Yeah. And some people think it could be another friend. Another friend who would come and speak in contradiction to these friends. I think a helpful Bible study principle is to always look at what comes before and after the verse in question. I know you know this and do this yourself. Verses 25 through 26 say, I know that my Redeemer lives and at the last he will stand upon the earth. Some translations say the dust. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God. God. So when you put those two verses together, that's where we get to this picture of Job being vindicated after death, like you pointed out. And I think Job certainly thought he would see God, but it's not super evident that Job knew anything about the bodily resurrection for himself. He probably just knew he'd see God at some point. And of course, Jesus is and has always been God, even before he was born in Bethlehem. Jesus was there at the creation of the earth. And just like all the Old Testament saints, the believers in Yahweh who died before the death and resurrection of Christ, they had a forward-looking faith. Today, we have a backward-looking faith. And for both groups of people, the object of our faith is Jesus. So today, we have the benefit of knowing his name. Job wouldn't have known about Jesus specifically, but he may have known about the serpent crusher from the Garden of Eden. So this doesn mean that his words can be the foreshadowing of Jesus We just see things like this all throughout the Old Testament And like we talked about in the last question there are some things that are better understood retroactively when we can look back and say, yeah, Job's friends were wrong and wrong and wrong and wrong now that we've got the fuller picture. And one exciting thing about this, I think, is that even with as much information as we have today, we still see through the mirror dimly. In many ways, we're like these faithful others as well. According to Paul, 1 Corinthians 13, there's still so much more we can come to learn about Scripture, what Scripture means, and who God is as time unfolds, which is exciting. Yeah, that's really awesome. Good. All right. Let's move on to the next question. This question comes from day 11 and a couple different verses. So Job 31, 9, 13, 29. And here's the question. In Job's final appeal, it seems like he might have had the same bad theology as his friends. It sounds like he's saying, if I had done bad things, then it would have been okay if these bad things happened to me. But aren't we not supposed to believe that? And so a couple of these places where Job kind of does the if. So if I have rejected the cause of my manservant or my maidservant when they brought a complaint against me, what then shall I do when God rises up? Later, he says, if I have rejoiced at the ruin of him who hated me or exalted when evil overtook him. So that's where we can see this kind of playing back and forth. I think this question, it's a longer question. Yeah. You could sum it up by asking, was Job saying that our sin always warrants physical consequences? Like immediate physical consequences? Yeah. And the answer is no, that's not what he's saying. Sometimes arson leads to consequences, but it's not a guarantee. I think about the conversation between Job and his friends as kind of like a scene in a courtroom. Like Job's on trial. His friends are coming in as the prosecutors and they're like, you're guilty for all of these reasons. And Job's on defense. He's got to address the charges that are being thrown at him. And in the ancient Near East, it was common for the accused, that was the ancient Near East, think, region and time period in which Job lived. It was common for the accused to present what was called a negative testament to the court. So that meant that the court would be responsible for proving that all of the accusations were true. So the accused had to show that the proof was missing, which means Job had to show that there was no proof. Yes. And so that's what he's doing here by paraphrasing his friend's arguments. He's actually showing them that they're wrong. Yeah. And this chapter, we see a lot of if this was true, then this would be true. If this was true, then this would be true. If this was true, then this would be true. And Job's point is that he didn't actually do any of the ifs. Yep. And so he's showing that this isn't a lack of understanding. He knows that the wicked deserve consequences or punishment, whether they actually receive it or not. Right. He's showing that he didn't commit these sins to begin with. The accusations are wrong. Yeah. And I think let's zoom out a little bit bigger, too, as we're talking about this with just this book, the book of Job, is really trying to broaden our perspective. And so it's considered wisdom literature, which talks about the way the world works. OK. And we think about the different other wisdom literature that we have. So something like Proverbs, very different than Job. something like Ecclesiastes, but they're all showing like one facet of the way that the world works. And so what's going on here with Job is that he's not necessarily talking about bad theology at this point, like what you're saying, he's probably trying to vindicate himself. But we do see kind of overall that his understanding of God is too small and it's too simplistic. So even though he can kind of stand on trial and say, well, yeah, if I would have done that, then this, he's still looking at it too simplistically and to kind of this is like the equation. This plus this equals this. And so in some ways, he's agreeing with his friends that basically only bad things should happen to wicked people, even though he knows that's not the reality. But I think what we see is that all of these men just want to give us a picture of life that's a little bit too black and white. It's a little bit more proverbial in the sense that like you have a proverb like 1120 Proverbs 1121 that says, be assured an evil person will not go unpunished, but the offspring of the righteous will be delivered. And so, yes, that's true. But also we don't necessarily see that lived out in the moment in every way, which is, I think, what we see with Job a lot. So in TBR, we've talked about this before, that Proverbs are not promises. They're general wisdom for living. Yes. Yes. I've taught it to kids before and said Proverbs aren't promises. They're general principles that usually prove true. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You ready for the next question? Yeah. Okay. This one comes from day 14, and it comes from Job chapters 38 through 39. And the question is, is there any meaning to the order of questions that God presents to Job, or is it just emphasizing that God made everything? Good question. Good question. Okay. So I definitely think there's an emphasis on creation in God's response. And again, like what I was talking about then in the end of our last question, And it's broadening Job's perspective on who God is. So as God speaks to Job, God is highlighting his creation on a massive scale. Totally. So God starts out by saying, where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Uh-huh. It's like, were you there, Job? Did you know? No, you weren't. I think about this like God knows everything. Yep. And he never asks people questions because he doesn't know something. Yeah. So the earliest example of this is the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve, they eat the fruit and God asked Adam where he was. And it's like certainly God knew where Adam was. God's questions are purposeful. They aren't like our questions. So he's not trying to gain information. He already knows all. He's trying to show whoever he's leading something in that moment. Exactly. Yeah. And God later highlights things in creation that are chaotic or dangerous. So that's also kind of another way that he's showing just the bigness of who he is and his sovereignty and what he has control over. So he asked Job, can you send forth lightnings that they may go and say to you, here we are? And Job cannot. Exactly. So it's all meant to demonstrate to Job that God is sovereign over weather, creation, things in the world that seem chaotic and out of control. And these are all under God's rule. They are not outside of his understanding, his control, or his purposes. And what that's meant to say to Job is, and neither is your situation, Job. That's good. It's God responding to every single thing that's happened to Job. And this isn't a random speech for God. It's really more of a response than actual questions. So while Job might have thought God had forgotten about him. Exactly. Or that God wasn't just in the way that he should have been. Yeah, or that God was too busy running the universe to care. God makes it clear through these rhetorical questions that he is very much attentive to all the happenings in and of the universe and still very much in control of all things. Yes. Which I think ultimately God wasn't neglecting Job. God holds all things and he holds all things together. Even when life looks more like Job's than life in the Garden of Eden. Yeah. That's a really good point. Yeah. I think God is really letting Job know in no uncertain terms that he has everything under control. That's right. And if we zoom out, this should be really comforting to us as well. Like the enemy doesn't get to win in Job's story and he doesn't get to win in our story either. God is in control of our lives. God sovereignly sees and knows what's going on in our situations. Like you said, he has not forgotten us. So what do you do when it feels like God has forgotten? We talked about a lot of bad examples from the friends Yeah I mean you have to remind yourself of the truth Because the reality is like there so many places in the Bible where we see people who are suffering And the response to them is encouragement. It's keep going. It's cling to the truth so that you remember what you believe. You remember who God is. and I mean I think sometimes that's really all that you can do I mean I know I've been in some very dark seasons where really all I can do is be like okay God is with me today in this moment in this moment right now like I know that that's true but yeah that's a great question and it's so it can be so challenging and easier said than done it's so easier said than done and that's why I think it's so helpful to have other people like friends have friends that aren't going to be like Job's friends who are around you in those times that can also remind you of the truth. Yeah, friends that are full of really godly wisdom. Yeah, that's good. Okay, so Emma, big week of Job. Big week, only Job. Only Job. And this— Job was the main character this week. He was. And we know that this can be a hard book. And so what is something about this book in particular that has helped you love God more, love others more, trust God more? Yep. I have a few just like rapid fire thoughts. One is that it teaches us to trust God when life hurts. So I think it's Job 13, 15, though he slay me, I will trust him. or though he allows me to be slayed or to encounter trouble, I will praise him. I will trust him. I think Job is a demonstration of what real faith looks like. When his friends are telling him, hey, it's all your fault, he's like, no, I know how my God works and I know how I've been walking with the Lord. This is not what this is. I also think it reminds us that our worship isn't based on our circumstances. That's a good one. When Job lost everything in chapter one, which was I think last week's reading, but his first response was to worship. And then it shows us that God's wisdom is greater than ours. Because at the end, like God never tells Job why he suffered. Like Job never knows. He never gets the answer. He never knows about the question that happened at the beginning. Yeah. And sometimes loving God means trusting in his wisdom and his character, even when we don't understand his ways. Yeah. There's a Spurgeon quote that it says, when we can't trace his hand, we can trust his heart. Yes. Which I think is a beautiful picture of what's happening here at the end of Job. And then lastly, I think Job points us to a Savior who also suffered. So even though Job, like we talked about, Job probably wasn't thinking of Jesus when he said Redeemer lives. Right. But we can look at Job and see that Jesus is the better Job in how he suffered. He suffered to rescue us. That's such a good point. So that's, I think, when it comes to loving God, those are some things that come to mind. When it comes to loving others, I think it's the being present with your friends. Be present before you preach, we could say. Oh, I like that. I think don't assume, ask. Like this whole time, Job's friends assume that he did something wrong. I think we also make other assumptions when it comes to caring to our friends who are hurting. So we may not be trying to solve the why for them. We might just assume, oh, they want me to call them every two hours. And that may be really annoying. That may not be what they need. We might assume, oh, I need to come over and spend every waking moment with them in the hospital. They may need a second. I think it's the tendency to assume and to rush doesn't typically go well. Ask. Ask for something we can learn from Job's friends. And then I also think we can pray for people who hurt us. Job prays for his friends at the end. And loving others can mean forgiving them when they fail to care for us well. And our flesh wants to cut them off or write them off. But Job chooses to pray for them and forgive them even though they're wrong. Yeah. That's really good. Those are some really good points. I think with how Job helps me love God more and understand God more, I think just recognizing how big God is and how under control he has everything. Yeah, like that last section. Yeah, it just – I control the universe. I know. I got you. Yeah, doing that research was really interesting just with all the different things that God talks about in the world that he created. I think it also helps remind me that God created the world good and sin has destroyed that. And there's a better reality coming for us. So it does really actually fill me with a lot of hope. and it's such an interesting thing like that might not have been your experience this time and it's okay if it wasn't totally fine if that's not your experience but I I do think there's there's just a sense the more and more you read through scripture and the more you consider the goodness of God and like what he actually had planned I mean again plan a was Jesus from the beginning but like the the way that the way that the world was supposed to be yeah God's best for us. Yeah. God's best for us is just, it's really remarkable. And it's so hard to see that in the midst of times of pain or suffering, like what Job's experience or like, I've experienced that. I'm sure you've experienced that. But yeah, I think just focusing on how big God is and yet he loves us and yet he in Jesus came down to be with us. Like it's just crazy, you know? So great. Beautiful too. Yeah. And I think also just in terms of loving others and just out of that, like suffering is such a reality in life. And if we pretend that it's not or we think that suffering only comes when it's A plus B equals C, we're going to be pretty hard on people. Oh, yeah. And pretty hard on ourselves. And so I think that's a really important thing to remember. Like suffering is in many ways the normative. We should expect it as Christians. And I think many of us are very lucky. I feel very lucky to have truly felt like I've suffered very little. But in those times when I am suffering, it's very painful. You know, but I think just recognizing that as the norm, but knowing that Jesus went before us in that. Jesus suffered on our behalf so that we wouldn't have to ultimately suffer. Like it's just, it's incredible. And then what was the third? Loving. Loving others. Loving others. How does Job help you love others? Yeah. Learn to love others. I mean, I think part of that is kind of connected to what I was saying with the suffering where it's like people recognize that other people are suffering. Recognize that someone that you know right now might be in a Job type experience. You know? And so how do I, yeah, how do I have grace for their situation? How do I truly practically love them? Yeah. What would you say to the person listening who is in that Job situation right now? Yeah. You got to hold on to hope. They're in the hospital. I know. What do they do? You're living for a different kingdom. God is with you 100%. And he loves you. And there's hope. And the hope is not in the present circumstance. The hope is in Jesus. Amen. But it's not trite. You know, like it's. Yeah, it's not trite. Right. Like may those words encourage and affirm you in this moment. And you might need to say those things to yourself over and over again for the rest of today. You know? Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's great. I think that's all we got. Yeah. Thanks so much, Emma. Great work today. Thank you. Likewise. Good deep diving. Great deep diving. All right. Thanks for taking a deep dive with us. We'll see you next week as we continue to read, understand, and love the Bible and the God who wrote it.