381: From Tinder Match to Deadly Stalker: The Murder of Molly McLaren

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And somebody who's trying to figure out where you are and follow your every move, both online and in real life. Right. So this, yeah, this particular case though, also deals with mental health issues as well. There's a major question here with the perpetrator, Joshua Stimson, whether he was suffering from a mental health crisis at the time that he committed this very heinous murder of a beautiful young woman named Molly McLaren. It's a very tragic, very sad case. But as Kendall said, an important one at that. Yeah, it's one that I had stumbled across years ago. I remember very late at night coming across it on my phone and was so disturbed by it. It's truly just heart-wrenching. I don't think, I mean, I think people in her life and her knew that this, I don't know, I really don't think they could have ever predicted that it would have gotten to this point. You know, it was so shocking and sudden. No, he snapped. I mean, it's just, I don't think there was really any way to foresee just how violent this would become. Right. Like they, you know, people were worried about her. She was worried about herself and taking precautions as much as she could. But I still don't think anyone could have imagined it would have turned out the way that it did. It's just so horrific. And she was so young. Yeah, just really getting started with her life. Yeah. And yeah, the worst case scenario unfolded. So let's just, yeah, this one's just really, really rough. Yeah. Really sad. It's very tough. And a tragic story overall. But we are joined today by our producers, Ian and Janelle. Hey, guys. What's up, guys? Hey, guys. Howdy-do. But let's, yeah, let's hop into this. Because, you know, there's a lot more to Molly's story than just her death, right? She still lived quite a bit of life, and it's important to talk about who she was in life as well. Yeah, she was a wonderful person. So Molly Joanne McLaren was born on May 26, 1994, and primarily raised in and around Kent, England. Now, unfortunately, we do know very little about her early life, but we do know she had a great relationship with her mother, Joanne, and spent a lot of time with her extended family as well. There were many family gatherings, and Molly was super close with several of her cousins, and her father, Doug, was often away working on offshore drilling rigs, but he, even with the distance, remained extremely close to his daughter, and their family was really known for its happy, lively home. Sam, who's Molly's cousin, said that Molly was the happiest person I've ever met. She always made me laugh. She was always up for a good time. There were numerous videos posted to social media websites like Instagram and Snapchat that all show Molly laughing and having a great time with friends, no matter the situation. Molly's close friend Amy said that there's nobody that's ever met her that didn't like her. She was the kind of person that you relied on to cheer you up. She was the life and soul of the party. And Molly was well known on social media. She was constantly uploading running or exercising videos with inspiring messages underneath. She seemed to be someone who really loved spreading positivity to others. And as a student at Kent University, Molly had a keen interest in nutrition and the goal of eventually becoming a personal trainer, which I think she would have been excellent at. Molly was a very beautiful young woman as well. She often received a lot of attention at pubs, bars, and clubs. And in 2016, Tinder was relatively new in the UK, and Molly and her friends thought it might be fun to see if they could meet anyone new outside of their regular social circles. That's why in July of 2016, Molly met a man named Joshua Stimpson. Now, similar to Molly, we know very little about Josh's early life. We do know that he grew up in Stoke-on-Trent, but later moved to Woodham, near the larger city of Rochester. And while his profile said that he worked in sales, in reality, he also held a job at a warehouse in Woodham. Now, at first, their relationship remained entirely online. According to her friends, he was her type, but still not the kind of guy that she usually went for. Now, he was just as interested in the gym and staying active as Molly was, so obviously they had that in common, and initially she really liked him. The two of them spoke online for nearly four months before they did eventually meet up in November of 2016, and Molly told one of her friends, remember that guy I matched with when I was in a bad place? Well, we finally met up. After that initial meeting, Molly and Josh spent every day together for a week straight. Her friend said that the honeymoon phase was really good fun and that Molly was in a really happy place. They texted one another saying, no one has ever made me as happy as you do. And Josh even said, I'm scared how much I like you. In December 2016, Molly's parents got to meet Josh. Joanne said he came into the house and he sat down and he seemed quite comfortable. He was easy to talk to and he just seemed like a nice guy. You know, no immediate red flags or anything like that. But Josh said he had never had a girlfriend and Joanne thought he might be a bit lonely. Whereas Molly was not. Molly's very social, has a lot of friends, you know, has had relationships before, but it seemed like Josh had a very different background. Joanne said that while Molly was looking for love, it seemed like Josh was looking to be wanted by someone. Doug noticed that as the relationship progressed, Josh always seemed to be coming over to their house and Molly never seemed to be going over to Josh's house. And it's unclear what Josh's living situation was like or if Molly's family ever met his family, which is kind of weird. I think, and let me ask you this guys like is it a red flag for you if you're dating somebody and you never go over to their house and they're always insisting on coming over to your house or have you ever dated somebody like that yeah i think it's probably a red flag especially at their age definitely yeah i think it's a bit odd for sure i would say like the only time i've encountered that where it was normal was because of very strict parents or honestly religious reasons sometimes. But for it to be seemingly like him hanging out with her family basically 24-7 and her not even going over there, that's where it gets odd to me. Yeah, definitely. It makes you wonder, is he hiding something? Is there something he doesn't want her to see? Or is there information she might get from... family members of his like why is he insisting on only coming over to her house i mean obviously we'll never know but well we do know that he claims he was abandoned by his mother so it's possible that it's just not a good home situation but i mean that's what he claims in court right right right but why not at least have her come over see where you sleep you know like it's weird Yeah. To be dating somebody and not even know where they, you know, rest their head at night. You were always anxious for me to go to your house. Yeah, well, to Ian's point, when Ian nailed it on the head, I had strict religious parents. Yeah, that's why. And no fun at my house. We still had fun. Yeah, well, you only came over like one time. Yeah, that's true. Maybe like three. And I hung out at your house all the time. Yeah, you like lived there. You actually did for a while, so. But I had a valid reason. I wasn't hiding anything. Mm-hmm. But anyways, Doug didn't seem to mind that Josh was coming over because like Joanne, he thought Josh was just this nice, normal guy. It seems like Molly was happy. And so, you know, you're just going to kind of support it at this point. He said that in the early days of the relationship, he even shared a beer with Josh and kick back, talk about football, you know, man stuff. And Doug said we had no reason to believe that anything was amiss with him. One of the bonding factors in the relationship was that both Josh and Molly suffered from mental health issues. Molly had anxiety and dealt with bulimia, and Josh would often speak about his bipolar disorder. Molly would also speak openly about her struggles on social media and really felt that her posts helped people and, you know, people that interacted with her that knew her, especially with Josh, who hadn't thought he could be honest about the issues he'd faced since he was a teenager. So he's finally met somebody who he felt like he could open up to about some of his mental health struggles. But Josh would later say that his mental issues stemmed from his mom leaving their family when he was a teenager. His father, Paul, said that Josh often talked about suicide and that once in 2010, he found Josh in a flat he shared with his brother with paracetamol all over the place. So there's that. But Molly had a distinctly positive effect on Josh's condition and really his life in general. She encouraged him to get into a new job and he even ran a marathon to support a mental health charity. He also claimed to have taken medication for his condition, which Molly supported 100%. And this connection drew the two together on more than just a physical level, but on an emotional level. And Josh even told Molly that he had two girls stop talking to him the moment they found out he was bipolar. And Molly responded to this by saying, I will help you any way I can. So it really kind of paints a picture of what the relationship was like. And they're supporting each other on multiple fronts. And Doug said it was a shock when they first learned about Josh's situation. But eventually, he and Joanne came to understand it as well. And he said, It might even be a good match because they both dealt with personal mental health issues so they could support one another and allow each other an event, ultimately making each other feel good. However, by February 2017, cracks were beginning to show in their relationship. Molly had become quite busy with schoolwork, studying for exams, and working on her dissertation. However, Josh would just show up at her house completely uninvited and he'd be persuasive, telling her that he would just come. I'm going to come hang out, sit on your bed while you just continue to do what you need to do. And at first it's kind of a bit strange, but Molly didn't mind because it just kind of seemed like Josh just wants to spend time with her. Yeah, but how fucking annoying. He just wants to sit there and watch her study. And how distracting would that be? Even if he's not saying anything, but he's just lurking in the background, like sitting on the bed or the couch or whatever it is. It's definitely concerning, right? Because it's like you really have nothing else. you could be doing. No, he just wants to watch her. Did you know that your liver is your body's largest solid organ and vital gland? It's roughly the size of a football and it performs over 500 essential functions, including filtering over a liter of blood per minute. Without your liver, it's no good. It's an extremely important an organ that you need to take care of. And Dose is here to help get your liver in tip-top shape. Dose for your liver is a clinically backed liver health supplement. 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I've had dose a few times and I got to say it does taste like orange juice. And I was very surprised at just how good my body felt after I could feel my liver wagging its tail in my body telling me how happy it is that it is getting all of the things it needs to work as best as it can. So if you're ready to solve the mystery of why you've been feeling off, check out Dosedaily.co slash mile higher or enter mile higher to get 35% off your first subscription. Your body does so much for you, so let's do something for it. That's D-O-S-E-D-A-I-L-Y dot C-O slash mile higher for 35% off your first month subscription. However, after one of these instances, Josh texted Molly and said, It's unfair. Me wasting hours of my weekends sat on your bed in silence, which Molly simply responded. I didn't make you stay yesterday. What a fucking. So to then take that and then, you know, put it back on her of like, I just am wasting time here when he invited himself over is very manipulative. Right. Molly began to recognize that Josh is controlling. I mean, all she's trying to do is study. she's just going about her normal life he's like it's unfair he's so guilt tripping her being like you need to spend more time with me very possessive but things unfortunately only get worse from here then he texted molly to say he had quit his job and molly responded what and he told her not to be mad because he was doing this to you guessed it spend more time with her that's probably what he wants her to do as well quit school and just spend all her time with him right right and of course molly is livid about this decision and told him dude we can't be together 24 7 like what are you what are you doing we have i have obligations and things i have to do she told him and her friends that she was beginning to feel suffocated by the relationship and she wanted space something just wasn't quite right and she told close friends that quote i'm not sure I feel the same way about Josh as I did. And according to her father, Molly seemed to be getting cold feet about the relationship. And so she decided at this point that the relationship just wasn't a good fit for her. She texted Josh and said, it's probably best if we have a bit of space right now. But Josh was letting his true personality show now that he, you know, feared losing her. He bombarded Molly with messages saying, please don't break up with me. One chance is all I'm asking for. I will do anything. I will literally beg. I know this can work. And for Molly's part, she was feeling very intensely too, telling people that she hadn't stopped crying all day and night since the breakup. So in the end, after only a brief period of separation, Molly did end up taking him back. And other people said it was easier to take him back than not. And for Josh's part, he had seriously manipulated her into thinking that he wasn't the problem in their relationship, but it was her mental health that was, which is super fucked up, that the thing that they bonded over is the thing that he used to manipulate her to get her to get back together with him. She even reached out to her general practitioner about her anxiety and depression, who ended up prescribing her with medication, and she told Josh that the medication wasn't helping. Obviously, it takes time for medications to help, or maybe she was on the wrong one, whatever it is. But he responded, you are going to feel worse. That horrible pill is making you feel a million times worse. I think this is such a red flag on so many levels because like for one, what are you doing? You're not a doctor. For two, he's basically alluding like nothing's going to make you feel better except for me. Yes. Like nothing's going to help you in life. And in fact, it's only going to make it worse except for me. And that's just so creepy and manipulative. That is 100% what he is saying there. And I also think, whether he even acknowledged, like, subconsciously did this or not, if she does take the meds and they do work, then there's a chance that she may be doing better, feeling better, and realizes, like, oh, actually, I think my life is probably going to be better without you in it and like I would like to move on or separate or whatever you know this relationship isn't giving me anything positive anymore and obviously that's not what he wants either so it's best if she's like not feeling well mentally and is you know needing him in all facets of her life yeah that is a great point you know I was kind of thinking the same thing in my head and didn't know how to explain it but that makes total sense that is definitely what he is afraid of that these medicines or her pill will work and she'll realize, I don't need him. He wants her to remain weak in his eyes. Yeah, exactly. Do you think this is stemming from abandonment issues or is this just an inexperienced boyfriend? I don't know what Joshua's issues stem from. I'm not a doctor and it seems like even after multiple doctors look at him, which we'll get to, no one really truly knows what the fuck is wrong with this guy. But I think that certainly could be it. Maybe it's part of it. It's probably a mix of things. I mean, if the abandonment story is even true. Right. We don't even know if it's true. Yeah, that was my thing. We don't know the extent of it. Because that could just be a convenient excuse for him to use. Yeah. But it is true that like a lot of people who have abandonment issues that rolls over in their relationships as they grow up. But again, we don't really know what his upbringing was or how severe these abandonment issues were, what they really looked like. So it's kind of hard to like, hard to tell. Because that is also something that defense attorneys probably thought about and said, here we go. So anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves. But on May 20th, 2017, things only escalated when Josh joined Molly at a large family party. Claire, one of Molly's cousins, met Josh for the first time at this party and was really taken aback by his demeanor. While Molly was enjoying herself being the life of the party like she always was, Josh never joined in. To Claire it seemed like Josh couldn relax Sounded like he was just kind of like sulking around and being negative And as the party ended and everyone started walking back to their rooms Josh walked ahead of the family and Claire said, he wouldn't walk with us. Then later into the evening, Molly texted Joanne and said, can you come into our room? Josh is kicking off. Apparently, Josh was yelling at Molly for having a good time at the party and trying to record her reaction so that he could use it as ammo. She told him, I just feel you keep trying to catch me out, recording me, hoping you catch me saying something I'd regret. And now Molly's becoming increasingly concerned that Josh might share some of their private conversations on social media and via text messages. Plus, the two are consistently arguing. One text exchange between the two highlights this. Josh, he sarcastically texted Molly after a fight saying, have a good weekend, to which Molly responded, fucking grow up. It was once again becoming a relationship Molly didn't want, especially as Josh continually uses mental health to manipulate her. He texted her saying, I'm on three tablets a day for bipolar, which is also known as manic depression. I'm signed off with a mental health problem. I'm not going to feel like skipping down the street singing. Those close to Molly said that he manipulated her because he knew that Molly wanted to support his struggles with mental health. She didn't want him to be unhappy, but he had to be the center of her world. Then on May 31st, the couple left for a beachside vacation, although we don't know exactly where they headed to. But for Molly, this trip was going to be a bit of a test for the relationship. She's going to try to figure out, you know, kind of get out of the normal routine and just really see if this is right for her. Plus, it kind of provides this reset from all the fighting and manipulation, you know, maybe a change of scenery would be good. So, they go on this trip and almost immediately, Molly began messaging her friend saying that something felt wrong in the relationship still. She told her friend Sam, God, I am having a dilemma on holiday. She also said she was suffering from anxiety attacks while on the trip. She told her that she thought these feelings are going to pass, but they hadn't. She still felt stuck and stressed and on a trip that was supposed to get them back to how they felt for one another at the beginning of the relationship. On the 18th of June, after they had returned from their trip, Molly officially told Josh that the relationship was over. She texted her friends and told them she immediately felt relieved. However, Josh relied on his old tactics to try and win her back. He started bombarding her with calls, text messages, and other just DMs again. He blamed her mental health, asked her for a second chance, basically the exact same playbook he ran through the first time. And while Josh posted about the relationship being over, signaling that he might finally be able to work through this, his emotions towards Molly shifted from sadness to anger and rage. 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Regardless of the truth of his statements, Molly recognized these posts as manipulative behavior and decided the best way to handle this situation was to block Josh across social media. No more access to her Facebook, to her Instagram, and to her Snapchat. And of course, Josh was still looking to control his now ex-girlfriend, and this was not going to fly. This pissed him off. So, Josh ends up devising a plan. he reaches out to an old match on tinder and while the two had never become romantic in any capacity they had created a friendship and of course this friend only knew about the relationship from josh's point of view so she saw molly as a liar who seemingly ended a happy relationship with her friend and you know who knows what josh told her probably made up a bunch of shit but he reached out to this unnamed friend to ask why Molly's accounts weren't showing up across his social media, because apparently he's too stupid to know that that means you're obviously blocked. And she informed him that Molly has likely blocked you. And since Josh still wanted to monitor her movements and what she was doing, he asked his friend to check on her accounts for him and send screenshots. And this friend, perhaps innocently, I think most likely that is the case, even said, I love a good stalk. I think that was meant very sarcastically. You know, it seems like, I guess I didn't, I've never really had exes on social media beyond like Facebook, because I've been with Josh since I was 17. But do you think, I mean, Ian, I know you had some thoughts on this as someone who is still actively dating. Yes. Oh, yes. I mean, I would say that That's why I honestly do think the friend is rather innocent in this. It's a behavior. Most people I know my age who are single, when you break up with someone, you keep up with them on social media somehow. Even if a friend does it for you. Even if a friend does it for you. Even if you use anonymous websites to view stories, all that. I try my best not to, not because of the stalking thing, but because I kind of feel like it's a form of self-harm like to to constantly try to keep up with your exes definitely digital spaces um but i don't know i i i kind of see why like i mean we we know other people who certainly when they go through a breakup or a friend does they're like yeah let's fucking let's check on what's going on with them i was gonna say like i feel like we can all relate to quote unquote and i use this term lightly stalking someone's social media um it whether that's an ex-friend an ex romantic relationship whatever it may be i think that's very common in our um you know society now and our generations to do that because it's just we have the access at our fingertips and like i know i've definitely looked at other people i mean i can literally I think of something recently my friend got out of a relationship and I was like trying to I looked at their story because I wanted to know what they were doing and my friend didn't want to look. And obviously that was the extent extent of it. In a very innocent way. Like I think everyone can relate to doing that. And I think that's what the friend meant when they said a good stock. They had no idea the extent that Josh is actually stopping Molly. 100%. Yeah. I really don't like put a lot of fault on this friend. I think that they were just doing what, yeah, what everyone kind of does after you get out of a relationship. Yeah. And, you know, I think it might be kind of an unhealthy behavior, honestly. Sure, yeah. That we're normalizing, but I do think it is normal. Yeah. A lot of people do it. It's human nature to want to know, right? Right. I mean, I definitely was, even back in the day, like, looking at my high school boyfriend's Facebook and, like, his mom's Facebook. to see what they were up to at Christmas and stuff. Like, it's just, you're curious. Ian, you said that there's a website where you can view people's story anonymously now? Yeah, I do not want to reveal the name of it. I don't want, I mean, you can find it easily. But yes, I learned that not from, for you guys, not most recent X, but X long before. I found out that's how she was keeping up with me because she didn't have social media. So I didn't, I was like, oh, I can post whatever. I want. And then she informed me like, nope, I've been looking at your shit through this secret website, basically. What the hell? So does it show up as another view or just nothing? It shows up as a porn bot. As a porn bot. Oh, so your page has to be public. Your page has to be public for it to work. That's another reason why my page is private right now. I see. So in one exchange with this friend, Josh asks her to check Molly's Instagram as he believed she had gone to the beach and he wanted to know who she was with. And when the friend sent screenshots of Molly's post without anyone else pictured, Josh responded, the fact that she hasn't posted who she's with has me a bit paranoid. I don't know how to take that. Maybe he's like, is she with someone that his mind is wandering type of thing? Or is it more of she's clearly not posting who she's with because she knows I'm looking at it and doesn't want me to see. who knows what's going on in Josh's sick mind. But anyway, on June 21st, 2017, he took this cyber harassment to a whole new level when he made a public Facebook post and tagged Molly's mother, Joanne. He said, funny how you've tried to make me look bad by accusing me of being with another girl and taking drugs, which has later been said isn't true. Have you been honest that you are a coke head and I have been trying to get you to stop sniffing gear. Funny how you hadn't told people these bits of it, even lying to your own mom. Molly's cousin Claire saw Josh's post and immediately reached out to Molly, who hadn't seen it because she had Josh blocked on Facebook. And Molly immediately asked Joanne to look at her phone as she deleted Josh from her friends list before she could see the post. And this wouldn't be the last of Josh's harassing posts. In one, he posted a photo of Molly and said, quote, perfect photo, another night that I have proof of Molly admitting to having cocaine on. He also posted private texts between the two of them in which Josh asked Molly if she had been using narcotics. And she said yes. At this point, Molly and her family realized that Josh had been gathering ammunition throughout the relationship by having her reveal this intimate information. So it was more calculated than what, you know, instead of just being this sort of, you know, casual conversation they're having, he was digging to try to get bits and pieces of information to use against her. Molly and Joanne reached out to Facebook about removing those posts that he had made. Initially, they agreed. So Josh's posts were taken down and they told them that if his behavior continued, they would ban him from the platform. And while he went quiet for a moment, Josh immediately got back to posting his harassing messages saying, quote, you have been proved to be a coke head who lies to her own mom. and once again Molly and Joanne reached back out to Facebook to request the removal of the posts however in an about face they decided that this time Josh wasn't doing anything wrong and let him keep the posts up Joanne said that they were looking at these posts in isolation from the previous ones and not in Josh's larger pattern of stalking and harassment so they weren't they were just looking at it like individually as opposed to going back getting the full story the full history of messages have been posted which is so stupid you'd think Facebook would be able to figure that out. But Facebook does have the world's worst support. So it's no surprise, really. But yeah, did not take those posts down. Joanne would even later say, Facebook takes no responsibility at all, which I think is, I think these platforms have a responsibility. I know we've talked about this before, but I think they definitely have a responsibility, especially when things are shared that are potentially damaging to someone, right? So Molly and Joanne decided to escalate the issue. And on June 22, 2017, she was preparing to file a report to the Kemp police. And at the station, Molly and Joanne were taken into a room and asked about Josh's stalking and harassment that was going on via social media. And then they contacted him over the phone. According to Joanne, over the phone, Josh sounded very cool, calm, and collected. Came across as cold. Police told him that he had to stop posting about Molly on social media or they would arrest him. he just kept on repeating during this call i've done nothing wrong i've done nothing wrong and even after the phone call he posted there's more to come on june 25th he posted threatening messages on facebook once again and molly and joanne went back to the police who were again told that josh if he continued that they would arrest him they searched for him in the police files and since there was no other reports they assumed that this incident with molly was the only time he had engaged in stalking and harassing behavior. So now I had the police not doing a proper job at like documenting this stalking that Josh was doing. But even though he had been warned twice by the police to stop, his behavior towards Molly continued. He tried to monitor her every move after this. He even messaged his friend, how do I do the Snapchat thing? Meaning how could he look at her public posts without Molly knowing? And it's unclear if he was using another account to view her post since his was still blocked, but she messaged him. Top stalker, just don't get obsessed with it. Molly then got a job at the Chatham Dockside, and then suddenly Josh started going to that gym constantly. He would just be pacing around as if he was looking for her, and the question remained, how did he know she was there? Feeling paranoid at this point, she deleted all of her social media accounts, then created new ones, accepting follows only from people she knew personally. Josh's friend, who he was getting, you know, intel from, no longer had access to Molly's posts. And so Josh becomes even more desperate. He has now lost his connection, essentially, to Molly and knowing what she was up to. As you guys know, we are expecting our second child. 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We spend basically most of our life sleeping. So don't sleep on dirty ratchet sheets from wherever you got them from. Throw them away and take advantage of this exclusive offer from Bull & Branch. I promise you won't be disappointed because they are going to elevate your sleep experience. sleep sound with bull and branch get 15 off your first order plus free shipping at bullandbranch.com slash mile higher with code mile higher that's bull and branch b-o-l-l-a-m-d branch.com slash mile higher use code mile higher to unlock 15 off exclusions apply josh yes guess what's for dinner tonight. You tell me. One of my new favorites, this has been a pregnancy favorite. It's the Hungry Root Cheesy Pesto Chicken Baguettes. Oh yeah. Because I love a sandwich and these days all I'm having is like a tuna sandwich. And yes, you can heat up deli meat, but I don't know. It's like a pain. So I just haven't had deli meat. But a chicken baguette is an approved meal for me. Why is Hungry Roots so easy? Because it takes all of the thinking out of the process of making food at home. We don't have to come up with meals to make because there's options already there for us. We don't have to build out our grocery list. We don't have to think about what we're going to have that specific night because we already have our options laid out. Like tomorrow we have our steak and arugula Italiano salad, which is another one of my favorites with their sous vide proteins, which are excellent. But the best part is all their meals are really easy and quick to make. So quick. You can do it in 15 minutes or less. And there's no cleanup. And that's yeah, that's not even a joke. It's that easy. But it tastes like I was working on it for an hour plus. Yeah. and they have things for everybody pastas they have so many sandwiches it's actually crazy all cuisines they actually now have over 50 000 chef crafted recipes to choose from each week bro 50 000 hungry root has the top quality foods groceries because they screen out 200 additives including high fructose corn syrup yuck artificial sweeteners eh preservatives hell no they make sure you're eating clean, eating healthy, and eating good, baby. Thanks, Hungry Root. You're going to love Hungry Root as much as we do in our house. For a limited time, get 40% off your first box plus a free item in every box for life. That's HungryRoot.com slash mileheart. Code mileheart for 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. So on the 27th of June, Molly had created a new account that was dedicated to her fitness journey and also supporting other people who suffer with mental health issues. And since Josh and his friend couldn't access this new account, once again, she felt safe to post on it on her own social media platform as she had in the past. Plus, the police had forced Josh to remove all of his threatening and harassing posts about Molly, so she felt like maybe things were getting back to normal. However, while Molly was enjoying this newfound sense of freedom, Josh was unfortunately planning something. He was caught on CCTV visiting an Asda supermarket where he purchased a single kitchen knife. And then 30 minutes later, he visited a home-based department store and he bought a pickaxe. But for Molly, at this point in time, she really felt like they had finally reached a point of closure and the police had made Josh delete every single post related to her from his social media. And finally, the online harassment had stopped. So she thought she's moving on with her life. Someone even showed Molly a photo that Josh had posted to his social media, and it was him drinking a beer with a pigeon on his hand, and he captioned it one week single and already chatting up the birds And this photo made Molly feel like ah it was finally over She celebrated and said it felt like a weight had been lifted Her friend Sam said it's a funny pic, but he's still a dick. Unfortunately, according to others, that post was actually a trap. On the 28th of June, Molly had a lot to celebrate. She had enrolled in a physical training course, and another friend was promoted, and she had posted to her Instagram, to the new account, that she and her friends were going to the Ship and Trades pub and hotel. Meanwhile, Josh had actually arranged to go on a date with another woman that he had met on Tinder for their first date. However, after Molly posted on Instagram, Josh reached out to his date to inform her of a change in plans. He asked the woman to instead meet him at the ship and trades instead of their original date, for obvious reasons. And at the restaurant, Molly had gone up to the bar to order some food, and when she came back to her friends, according to them, it looked like her face had just seen a ghost. She told everyone that she had just seen Josh on a date. She even snapped a picture of him and sent it to another friend, saying, Josh is at the fucking ship and trades. He even had tried to smile at Molly, apparently. And her friends did try to make her feel better, cracking a joke and saying, if he's going on a first date, he'd probably pick somewhere you'd never been. And she laughed along with everyone else, but still, she was feeling very uneasy. I mean, of course, she knows him best. And after a few minutes, Molly made an excuse saying she wanted to go home and watch Love Island, and she left. Which just tells me this creeped her out immensely. I mean, who wouldn't it, you know? You're not expecting to see him there, and then he's there. Especially after she's just seen this photo of him chilling with a bird and a beer thinking, and he's like, I've only been single for a little while and I'm already chatting it up, whatever the hell he said. And in her mind, she's probably like, oh, and then she sees him. He's moving on, right. And she knows he's not there by chance. Especially when he is making eye contact and smiling. Right. Like, huh, I'm actually still following you. Scary stuff. While texting her friends that night, Molly's friends asked if he had seen her Instagram story. Molly responded, fuck knows, I blocked him so I don't know how. It's very unclear how Josh knew she was going to be at the pub. The next day, June 29th, 2017, Molly woke up early in the morning to head to the gym. Her mother Joanne was up with her and the two had a brief conversation. Joanne said that whenever she spoke to Molly, the two had a little routine and at the end of the conversation, Joanne would say, love you Molly, and Molly would respond, I love you more. And then Joanne would say, love you mostest. What she didn't know is that these would be the last words that they ever said to each other in person. At 9.57, Molly's car was spotted by a roadside camera she headed to the gym at Chatham Docks. 13 minutes later, Josh's car was seen on the same camera headed in the same direction. It's clear that he was following Molly, although we don't know how he knew when she left her home which is even scarier. At 10.06 Molly arrived at Pure Gym just before Josh pulled into the parking lot at 10.14. He was then seen entering the gym walking up the stairs and waiting beside the door where Molly was. He waited a few moments before he went inside. It was just the two of them in the gym and understandably Molly was pretty freaked out. She sent a photo of Josh and said, WTF he's just turned up at the gym and come right next to me. Her friend responded, OMFG restraining order time. All in all, Molly sent over 120 text messages alerting people that Josh had shown up at the gym. Molly texted Joanne saying, mom, he's turned up at the gym and come next to me. How would he know I was here? Joanne told her to ignore him and just come home. However, Molly got up and briefly spoke to Josh as he was doing exercises on the floor. Molly asked him if he was following her. He responded, it's none of business. Here's some CCTV footage of Josh following Molly into the gym. This was a narcissistic individual who was evil and should be locked up for a very long time. And I think 26 years does reflect that fact. When CCTV cameras captured Stimson following Molly up into a gym in the dockside area of Chatham, he was already guilty of stalking her. The 26-year-old, who'd been warned about his obsessive behaviour by the police, appears to turn and leave, only to return and take revenge for his rejection. The jury was shown pictures of Stimpson entering the gym where sports student Molly was working out, placing his own mat on the floor. A worried Molly messaged her mother, saying, Mum, he's turned up here. There was a brief exchange between the two before Stimson left and waited for her in the car park. God, that is just so eerie. Facty is just so bold and goes right up next to her. He's, I mean, purposely trying to terrify her. But Molly then left the room. Her friend asked if she had posted on Snapchat. And while Molly hadn't posted a public story, her Snap Map location was on. Meaning if you followed her, you knew her exact location at all times. After Molly left, Josh went down the stairs and waited for a while. He then turned, as you saw in the footage, go back up to the room, but then seemingly changed his mind and went back downstairs. Josh then exited the gym and went out to the parking lot at 11.01, and then he proceeds to slowly drive his car around the parking lot, waiting for Molly to exit the gym. Molly texted, I've left now. As people responded, he is a freak, stay away from him. Molly sent, I feel like I'm looking over my shoulder all the time. And right as she got to her car, Josh pulled up, he yanked her car door open, and began attacking her with a knife, the same knife he purchased two days prior. Ben Morton, who had just dropped off his wife at the movie theater that shared the same parking lot, was in his car with his dog, and he's just fiddling on his phone, you know, figuring out some music to play when he heard a commotion in front of him. He then jumped out of his car with his dog, walked forward, trying to get a better look to see what was going on, and that's when he saw Josh was attacking Molly with a knife. He then handed his dog to a stranger and tried to intervene. And at first, Ben yelled, he's killing her, and he told people to call police. Ben then started banging on the car's window and hood, trying to distract Josh. He even slammed the car door on Josh's leg, but this still didn't stop the attack. Josh just moved his leg fully inside the vehicle. Finally, Ben just tried to pull Josh off of Molly, but his hand slipped off of Josh's leg because it was covered in blood. At this point, Ben looked at Molly and he knew that she was gone. He then ran back to his car and blocked Molly's vehicle, preventing Josh from escaping. And with minutes, police and emergency services were on the scene. Joanne, meanwhile, had no idea what was happening at the Chatham Docks. It normally took Molly 15 minutes to return home from the gym, and after half an hour, she texted Molly, If you're stuck in traffic, pull over and let me know you're okay. Then Joanne got a text from one of her friends. Have you seen there's something happening at the Chatham dockside? She pulled up Snapchat and it showed that Molly was still at the dockside. Molly sadly passed away at the scene after Josh stabbed her more than 75 times. 75 times. Just unbelievable brutality. There's defensive wounds on Molly's hands from where she tried to defend herself from this brutal attack. and she was only 23 years old at the time of her death. God, there are just no words. So devastating. I can't imagine what her mom felt like just pulling up her Snapchat and seeing that she was there and knowing he was there too. Just terrifying. And when police pull up, Josh is just pacing up and down the parking lot near Molly's car. He's covered in blood and he doesn't make any attempt to try to flee the scene. They recovered the murder weapon along with two other knives as well as that pickaxe he had purchased the two days prior as well. Doug, who was on a drill ship 100 miles off the coast of Senegal, he received a text from Joanne saying, Call me straight away. Doug went to the bridge deck, called Joanne, and she told him that Josh had murdered Molly. Oh my god. Unimaginable panic. Can't even imagine how horrible that moment must have been. Molly's friend Sam said I screamed so much that my body was shaking They didn't even have to tell her who had done it She knew it was Josh That evening a community psychiatric nurse met with Josh to understand and evaluate his mental state He told her that he had previously taken medication for his bipolar disorder four years prior but he was no longer medicated She asked if he had thoughts of harming Molly before the attack and he responded maybe yesterday, but I didn't act on them. He told her that during the attack, there was something in his head telling him to do it. More of a thought than a voice. She observed that he showed no symptoms of psychosis or a mood disorder, only that he was in shock and he had not been sleeping well since their breakup two weeks prior. Yeah, I don't believe that for a second. I really don't. I think he just thought that was something that would possibly help him. He just thought of to say, you know, something told me to do this. Okay, dude. Well, I mean, I guess, of course, there's a possibility that. I don't know. I just don't believe it personally. Well, and she's saying that he showed no symptoms of psychosis or a mood disorder. So there you go. The next day, June 30th, Joshua Stimson was charged with the murder of Molly McLaren. So Josh's trial began on January 23rd, 2018, which was seven months after Josh had murdered Molly. And he sobbed as he entered the defendant's dock. He pleaded not guilty, of course, to the murder charge due to diminished responsibility as he claimed his mental condition left him temporarily out of control of his actions at the time of Molly's murder. How convenient. And do you think when he was sobbing, that was for, do you think any of that was for Molly or just for himself? I think it's for himself. He knows his life is over at this point. Yeah, I do too. Molly's family even said he wasn't the same man because he had put on, quote, loads of weight and had different colored hair and a beard. Joanne wanted to have direct eye contact with Josh as he sat in court, but like a little bitch, he refused. And according to Joanne, he just sat there looking like nothing and showed no remorse or emotion. And because Josh was trying to argue his charge down to manslaughter due to his mental conditions, He was driven to court every day by a private security service. However, it is likely that at his defense's direction, the security guards were all wearing medical uniforms. Prosecuting definitely plays up his mental conditions, right, to have everyone wearing these uniforms around him. Well, I think it's very calculated because he knows if he can put this on his mental condition, his punishment is going to be far less severe. Yeah. And so does his defense teams. They're like, all right, let's have all the security wear these medical uniforms. So prosecuting barrister, which means attorney, Philip Bennett's approached the judge and said that this was sending subliminal messages to the jury that Josh was mentally unwell, because of course it was. And so after that, thankfully, they made the security service wear proper uniforms for the rest of the trial. The psychiatric counselor who had spoken to Josh immediately after the murder made their statement, as well as psychiatrist Dr. Shahid Majid, who had cared for Josh while he was in custody. Dr. Majid said that Josh was, quote, emotionally unstable and driven by the highly abnormal personality he has developed. He went on to say that this did not impair his ability to understand the nature of what he did, but would have impacted his judgment before and during the act, as well as his ability to show self-control. The court then heard how Josh's mental issues began following the abandonment by his mother, which we touched on earlier. So we don't really know. any details about his mother beyond she sounds like she just left the entire family, although they may have played that up or even just said that in court. But there's, yeah, no details there. But he had been referred to a mental health clinic in Gillingham multiple times, but refused counseling and opted for the pill, which, of course, he only used for about four years. Dr. Majid explained that Josh had a hypersensitivity to any rejection and would do anything to keep a relationship going. He explained when rejected, he feels absolutely abandoned, so the best way to cope is to think the person isn't perfect. They become an object of hatred. However, Dr. Joseph said he clearly has a serious problem relating to women, but that doesn't mean he's got a personality disorder. With a personality disorder, you don't carefully plan something. If he's got a disorder, it's got no link with the killing. The killing is too premeditated. I'm not sure how much remorse he's shown after the death of Molly. I think he's been more concerned about himself. Agreed. Dr. Joseph officially said that in his opinion, Josh did not meet the threshold for bipolar or any personality disorder. He simply had narcissistic tendencies and showed that he premeditated the murder through threats and the purchase of a knife only two days before killing Molly. Do you all agree with Dr. Joseph? I do. I think he hit the nail on the head. I think he has narcissistic tendencies. And nothing else. And I mean, the thought behind this plan was fairly extensive too. To plan it out the way that he did, to have it to show up at all the places, to monitor her the way that he did, definitely seems very premeditated to me. I think he was probably thinking about it in different ways for some time. And he just couldn't stand the fact that if I can't be with her and she doesn't want to be with me, then I don't want her to be with anybody. And even though Josh had told Molly's family she was his first girlfriend, two ex-girlfriends spoke to the court saying that Josh engaged in a similar pattern of harassment and stalking with them as well. Leah Hubbard, who had dated Josh just months before he started talking to Molly in 2016, described him as her stalker and said that she ended the relationship once he started to make her feel uncomfortable. She was then at a club with friends when Josh found her and spat a drink all over her. He was thrown out of the club by bouncers. And when Leah left the club five hours later, he was still sitting outside. She said, I felt like he was waiting for me. Then he knocked on her flat window at 2am saying that he needed to charge his phone. He also repeatedly told her she couldn't hang out with any men, even though they had broken up. So that piece of information right there just confirms what I just said about he is possessive over these women. He doesn't want them. He only wants them to himself. And if they try to do, you know, talk to even other men, it's a big problem for him. He also followed her around without her knowledge, taking pictures and later messaging her asking why she was wearing certain clothes. Leah said the pictures came as a surprise to me. I didn't even know he was in the same club as me. She also received a picture of her back garden and later as she was preparing to go on vacation, he messaged her, I'm going to fly out and drown you. Leah contacted the police and finally the messages stopped. The other ex said that after breaking up with Josh, she was at a party when she received a text from him saying something was waiting for her at home, which, how scary is that? And when she got home, all four of her car tires had been slashed. However, since the Staffordshire police never filed Josh's previous stalking behavior as a crime, which is a crime in itself that they didn't do that, and there was no additional evidence, the complaint was never logged and the Kemp police had no way to access these earlier reports. The court also heard testimony from the friend who helped Josh stalk Molly. She said it was normal for people her age, but she was completely unaware of the impact of what she was doing. So kind of that conversation we were having a little bit earlier amongst ourselves of like, she didn't really understand fully what was going on. I mean, do we take her word for that? I don't I mean, it seems like she was just helping a friend out, so to speak. I believe her. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side Personally I mean to some degree I don't know the whole extent I can definitely see how you would be very innocent in a situation like that I think even without her though Josh is going to find her This guy is insane, he's done this multiple times He's like a pro stalker at this point He knows how to find them And he has, I'm sure he has all sorts of methods that he used to do it Clearly nothing's going to stop him. No. He's going to get what he wants. Right. Even without the friend, like when the friend couldn't monitor her post, that's when he ramped shit up. That's when he actually was starting to follow her. Right, right. And the day of the murder, you know, the friend had nothing to do with that. Right. Then on February 6, 2018, the jury deliberated for less than four hours before, thankfully, they found Joshua Stimson guilty of first degree murder and not a manslaughter charge, which would have been. abysmal to God. any family member or friend of Molly because what on earth? This was absolutely premeditated murder. So I'm glad they got the conviction. I'm surprised it took them four hours, honestly. Just, I guess here in the US, I don't think it would have taken that long. But I don't know. Maybe. I guess with mental health it does make things more complicated. Joshua will be 52 or 53 years old when he is released. I believe there's a possibility they can keep him in longer. There'll be some type of hearing or, you know, they'll do some type of hearing at that point to see if he should stay, which obviously I think we all agree he should stay locked up for sure. It's, I was honestly really disturbed to only hear 26 years. Yeah, he is a danger to society. after stabbing someone 75 fucking times. Are you kidding me? Definitely needs life, I think. I mean, I feel like there's probably a good chance that his behavior in prison won't be that good. Surprisingly in the UK, though, they release people like this. I know, God, it is. The UK, I have covered several cases where I've been shocked by the outcome in the UK specifically. Yeah, where people don't even serve that long, but I hope he's in there at least for 26 years, but even then, I don't know if I could ever feel comfortable knowing that he's out free. No. But let's take a look at the family's brief statement that they gave to the press after the trial. I was just Googling what the average is for first-degree murder in the UK as far as the sentence goes, and it says 15 to 30 years. God! Though average time served has risen to over 20 years. Okay. Wow. That's really scary. Says, the most serious cases often result in a 30-year or whole life. The verdict has brought us a small measure of comfort, but it seems that nothing will take away the pain or allow us to come to terms with our Molly being taken from us. We are serving a lifetime of pain anguish and loss In the wake of Molly murder Joanne said I miss Molly I can believe how much I miss her I miss our relationship. I miss what she was going to be, what she was going to do with her life. God, thinking about the times you're missing out on, everything that you're missing seeing your kid do and what they were meant to do with their life is just absolute torture. I just really, really feel for them. Doug said he couldn't imagine what she went through in that car. He said, I wish I could have done more to protect her as a father. Doug and Joanne started the Molly McLaren Foundation in her honor, which looked to fund charities that educated, raised awareness, and provided support for people affected by eating disorders, something that is very needed. And they held an annual festival on Molly's birthday called Molly Fest. However, after providing therapy and support for 25 people and their families, pretty huge. The charity did cease operations in 2024 after the final Molly Fest. Now, because Josh had been reported to the police in the past and had been forgotten, Joanne called for further communication between police jurisdictions, saying that if Kent police were aware of Josh's previous behavior, her murder may have been prevented. And I fully agree. While reflecting on Molly's death, Joanne said, I wish I had told her to go and be with other people, not to be on her own. I don't hold myself responsible. There's no one responsible but him. She was the light of their lives. And I'm glad she does not hold herself responsible. No one could have predicted that he would do what he did. Here's Joanne and Doug describing the impact Molly's death has had on their family and how they feel about Josh's actions five years after the murder. I just said, look, don't converse with him, don't talk to him, just leave everything and come home. Which actually was the worst thing I probably could have said to her, but she thought she'd be safe just getting into her car. To begin with, we were both really strong and there for each other, but now Doug seems to be on his own and doesn't let anyone in. It's just bad memories and the more you think about it, the more you hate it. She would want us to try and be happy together for the rest of our lives, but we're finding that really tough. The only time I go out is now I will go to the supermarket once a week or once every two weeks. People have said, let's go for a walk around the village. I can't do that. I find it hard to, I suppose, go to places that I went with Molly because although I love the memories, I don't need to physically go there to have the memories. So are stalking protection orders, do you think, doing enough? Well, I think anything that improves the situation has got to be worthwhile. There have been 356 applications. That is 0.3% of the 103,000 crimes recorded. It's not much, is it? It's unbelievable. Why? It's not good enough, is it? No. Why only that few? One of the charities involved said it's a disaster waiting to happen. But it's not waiting to happen. It has happened and is happening. There's a complete lack of communication between different police forces. if man or woman goes to the police frightened about someone, even though that person might not be arrested, there should be a notes, there should be a database with their name on it. Had there been one then with his name on it for things he did up in Staffordshire, then when Molly went to the police, they would have seen his name. You're wearing the T-shirts. Tell me about Mollyfest and the Molly McLaren Foundation. It's basically music, food, drink, people getting together. At Molly's Wake, it was so lovely having all family and friends together. And a few of her friends said, wouldn't it be lovely to do this once a year? And that's where we got the idea from. Let's have a Mollyfest because Molly loved festivals. We formed the foundation after Molly died. Molly had suffered with bulimia. but she'd largely overcome it and she showed us and she showed other people that you can beat it Looking around, the sunflower is everywhere I know it's a symbol of Molly but why? Sunshine it's beautiful it's sunned up in a flower what Molly was Do you feel that the victim isn't given priority in our legal system? the perpetrators seem to get a better deal. He's going to be looked after for all the time he's in there. They're going to make sure he's safe. We're not all right. Who's looking after us? I feel I always need to know what prison he's in, but we're not allowed to know. And it just seems to be he always gets the better deal. Do you think about him day to day? I try not to, but he creeps into my thoughts, especially because of the effect he's having on Doug and I now. I don't want to give him the pleasure, and I'm determined he's not going to get the better of us. We will get through this together. I'm not having it any other way. God, they are incredibly strong. I don't understand. Man, they can't know where he is, what prison he's in. Why is that? In a lot of other countries, all that's very private. Really? Yeah, they don't just give out that information. I would assume it's for the inmate's safety. Yeah, I mean, fuck their safety, though. If you killed, I just can't imagine if someone, I don't know. That's just insane to me. Who cares about them at that point? I mean, I can see it not being public information, But I feel like if your loved one was murdered, that you should have the right to know where they are and know that they are not near you and locked up. Just insane. She made a really good point, though, of who's looking after us. Right. We lost our daughter. He's going to be looked after by, you know, the judicial system, the government, the prison. Yeah. But nobody's like we're just expected to move on with our lives. Yeah. just have you know just because there was quote-unquote justice doesn't mean that fixes anything it's like her dad said it feels like he got the better deal i would feel that way too and it seems like they perhaps also feel and this is just my opinion that the punishment was not not enough here yeah have they made any statements specifically surrounding that Not that I could find. This was the most recent statement they made regarding Josh. I'm sure that is the case, though. I agree with you. I know there's definitely some people in the UK who are upset that there's no capital punishment. I would be. I was just going to say, yeah, it looks like there's a thing called the Data Protection Act of 2018. And the UK does not publicly disclose where an inmate is in prison to protect their privacy, security, and safety. and inmates must get permission for the location to be shared. That's so fucked up. What about Molly's privacy, security, and safety? That's why there's a lot of people in the UK unhappy with the government. It's bullshit, in my opinion. Yeah. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Well. Stocking is a huge issue though. It is. It is crazy. I mean. Thousands and thousands of people. No, millions. Yeah, I guess millions. In 2025, an estimated 13.5 million people in the United States are stocked annually. Wow. 13.5 mil? Yeah. Wow. That is more than I realized. One in five women and one in 10 men will be stocked in their lifetime or have been stocked. Yeah. Of course. It's crazy. The chances are doubled for women too. Yeah. And I think also, I think maybe those numbers have gone up as well because of technology and the ability to monitor people. Just. Makes sense, right? You know, like back in the day before all this, you had to, you know, creep around in person to try to follow somebody. And now you can do it from afar. Especially with like Snapchat, the geolocation stuff is scary. I was Googling that last night, just looking into it because it just made me think like, what is the point of having a Snapchat map? Right? than to like, yeah, it's fun to see where your friends are, but it just seems like the dangers far outweigh the potential like fun benefits of it. And like Instagram has that same thing. They launched that this year and they fucked up and automatically released locations. No, no, they did. It happened to Ian. I promise. I promise. I had to like, I had to go in there and be like, take my location off the map. It was on the map. It happened to some people, not everyone. It didn't happen to us. Yeah, it just makes me think, though, like, it's way too easy to figure out where everyone is nowadays. And I think to some degree, that's been very useful, like the Find My Friends app and Life360. With a trusted family. I think it can be great tools for safety and keeping, you know, tabs on each other. But also, I think it can be very dangerous, especially like the social media maps. And I was trying to figure out any sort of statistic around, you know, crimes that have occurred because it directly had to do with some sort of like snap map or something. which who's to say like he could have still committed this crime if she wasn't on the snap map not saying that that's exactly what caused her to be murdered but there's not like a lot of concrete data out there but there's been other documented cases throughout the years you know kind of recently of people who have been stalked and had crimes committed against them because of Snapchat location. Like in Texas in 2022, there was a stalking case, which Snapchat's live location feature was used to track a minors movement. There's one in North Carolina. Same thing. They were able to stalk their suspect to locate the victim prior to the attack. That was for kidnapping. There's in Australia, multiple incidents involving threats and extortion where Snapchat location data was referenced. God. And it just seems like it's getting worse and worse. And especially when minors are using the app, I think that's very concerning. And everyone is on Snapchat. And a lot of people, especially minors, don't understand the dangers of it or even understand that they need to keep their stuff on private. And people who aren't even minors, just adults in general. And I'm just curious how, as things continue to go in this direction of like, we just have access to each other all the time, basically, that how that will impact, you know, the statistics around violent crime and stalking. Yeah, I think it's having a massive impact and we'll only see more and more of that. Ian, your generation, you are a Gen Z, right? Yes, ma'am. So Snapchat, that's still really prominent. It's almost had a resurgence, right? I would say so. Not necessarily with me because I got off because I kind of saw where the winds were heading a long time ago. But definitely I would say people, especially just a little bit younger than me, are on Snapchat in a crazy way. Really? Yeah, and I would also say that, like, maybe cynically, these social media companies don't actually care about these incidents. No, right. Because all it is to them on the back end is engagement. Yeah. Right? They see how many people are actively using these maps and therefore actively using their platforms and are kind of like, well, you know, it's seen as collateral almost. Not only that, it's money, money, money. Exactly. Because what they're doing, all this geolocation data is being aggregated and compiled and sold to data brokers, to hedge funds, to government contractors for various uses. And so it's not so you can meet up with your friends. It's so they can track all your movements and figure out behavioral patterns and figure out where you're going, what businesses, so that they can target ads. It's all this is aggregated together so that they can build their algorithms to better target ads to you to sell you shit. It's all money. I have a question. You know, the air tags that Apple sells. Yeah. Can they sell the data? Do they sell the data from those? I'm sure Apple has some type of data sharing. Because I've been so curious. Why are these? Aren't they like twenty five bucks? Yeah. A little tracker. Yeah. It's like, it seems like there's an ulterior motive. I'm getting like conspirators. Well, they're nice because they can, it's, they're great for like tracking items. But think about if someone were to like want to follow you and put that on your car or something or put it in your bag. Well, they give you, you'll have a little pop-up on your phone. Like a new air tag has been, has been located or like near you. It's near you. Oh, that's a great feature. So that, which is exactly why it does that. And then you can be like, is this you? Yes or no? But yeah, I know Apple does not sell or share AirTag location data with third parties as the entire Find My Network is designed with end-to-end encryption. So you keep it within the company, which is good. Well, we do live in a scary world, and I think it's important to have these difficult conversations and try to understand it all. And, you know, as someone who is, I feel like now on the older side of things, it's helpful to understand what is actually available and what, especially as a parent now, what's, you know, what kids are using and for people to be aware of the signs of a stalker and the signs of, you know, an abusive relationship that can turn into stalking. stalking. So we wanted to also say if you are a victim of stalking or cyber stalking, there are resources available for you. If you are in the United States, the Stalking Prevention Awareness and Resource Center provides numerous links on their website, which is stalkingawareness.org. You can also contact the National Center for Victims of Crime for an advocate at 1-855-4-VICTIM, That's V-I-C-T-I-M or 1-855-484-2846. And if you're in the UK, you can contact the National Stalking Helpline at 0808-802-0300. And if you need to report it as a crime, just call your local police department or emergency services when necessary. I was just also going to say, too, I think another thing was a major issue in this case is the fact that law enforcement wasn't really doing the things they should have done to properly document this and track the different reports and complaints that had happened around Joshua Stimson. because it seems like had they done their jobs properly, then the police that ultimately were called in to help with Molly would have been made aware of Joshua and his past actions and maybe perhaps could have done something more to better protect her and whatever that may look like. But it just seems like they really somewhere along the line, the ball was dropped. And again, a lot of law enforcement departments and agencies are are scrambling to try to catch up with technology because there's just there's a lack of knowledge and a lack of training and trained personnel within these law enforcement agencies. I mean, just recently with Savannah Guthrie's mother's kidnapping and the FBI requiring help from outside agencies to even get those doorbell screenshots and video. It's like there's a lot that needs to happen for law enforcement to catch up with where technology is headed and have trained people that understand all of the dangers and risks. um god and it's moving so fast yeah it's it's moving extremely quickly because yeah this is going to be a bigger and bigger issue i mean as long as social media is here we're going to continue unfortunately having this type of activity going on i mean it's just it's just a part of it uh so it's good to know what you can do to protect yourself what red flags look for and who to contact if you become a victim yourself but uh yeah horrible horrible um what happened to molly you know heart goes out to her family that oh god it's just unfathomable i know truly devastating but uh let us let us know your thoughts i'm curious if anybody in the uk if you remember this happening, if you were following it, and just how often does this kind of, is this kind of the typical response from police in the UK, typical sort of criminal justice system playing out? I'm curious to hear your thoughts, especially. It's always interesting to hear thoughts of listeners and viewers who actually live in other countries that some of these cases take place where we're not completely versed on right things right and it's so different um yeah it would also be great to and i know you guys will have some conversation around stalking and experiences and tips for other people and um i've always see that and episodes of tc care where we talk about stalking and um it's it's just so helpful to have a dialogue around it you know especially because someone never knows when they could end up in a situation like this down the road even if you're not actively dealing with it now and right now after you're done listening go check your location services for snap maps for instagram for all facebook for all your all your apps go make sure your location isn't being shared unless it's with a trusted person yeah i was gonna say at the very least have this setting where it's not like shared to the public and just shared to only ghost mode you're both friends with um Or just, I mean, just don't do it. Yeah, I would say, like, in my opinion, what do I know? But I don't have Snapchat. But I feel like it's better to use a Life 360 Find My Friends for location sharing versus a social media app that's going to sell the data. But maybe Apple does, too. I don't really know. That's just my two cents. But that is going to be it for us today, you guys. Thanks for joining us. next week's episode will definitely not be as heavy no I am looking forward to next week it is more of a old school mile higher episode thought provoking yes we'll have some good discussion and be sharing some absolutely mind blowing stories so yeah I'm excited for that one I need it yeah we'll see you guys next week though Bye.