Challengers with Princess Weekes

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. Welcome to the neighborhood, a new community where everyone keeps an eye out for each other. Nothing's trying to stab some bucks. I think we need those scouts as ute. In this neighborhood, it's lawnmowers at dawn, as six real households outlet out for a quarter of a million pounds in this street-sized family feud. Don't come for the Scouts House and get away with it. My instant coffee's not good enough. Join me, Graham Norton, as I bring the drama to your doorstep in a new show like no other. The neighborhood starts Friday 24th of April on ITV1 and ITVX. Bring on the ding-dong. EasyJet's big orange sale is now on. Wander the streets with more wonder, with up to £200 off city breaks and up to 20% off flights. Book now at easyjet.com. Get out there. Selected dates and flights sale on 5th of May. Holidays minimum, spend an hour to protect it. Tease and seize apply. On the Bec Del Cast, the questions ask if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands? Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bec Del Cast. Game, match, point, love, hot, tennis, podcast, fucking, touching, fingers, sweaty hugs. What do you think Tashi majored in? I was wondering that. What did Tashi majored in? Because, okay, sorry for just starting the episode. I just, I can't stop thinking about what was Tashi majoring in? Was it genuinely an athlete-style journey where she was doing general studies? Or my guess, I feel like Tashi, is she a woman in STEM? Is she, I was... I think she was a psych major. I was gonna guess anthropology. Okay. Something like that. I don't know. Well... Wait, wait. Let's start the episode. This is, I have true, clearly cannot wait to start talking about challenges. Welcome to the Bec Del Cast. My name's Jamie Loftes. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bec Del Test simply as a jumping off point. Jamie, what the heck is that? Well, the Bec Del Test is a media match created by friend of the show, queer icon Alison Bec Del, originally for her comic collection. Dikes to watch out for our way back in the 80s as a one-off joke as a way of discussing something that is relevant to our conversation today. Why there was not more queer women depicted in movies and has since been, you know, sort of transformed into a more generalized media metric. So our version of the test is it requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue. And the dialogue should mean something. We think so. We think so. And what that means to you, look, we only have one life. I once had the dog in me to argue about the pedantics of the Bec Del Test, but frankly, we've got bigger fish to fry today. Because we have... We've got bigger balls to hit with a racket. We've got bigger tennis balls to hit. I will say I watched Challengers with my dog bravely. And he was locked in and I was like, wow, he doesn't usually sit for movies. And it's because there's tennis balls everywhere. I was literally like, why is Sonny so into this movie? And it's because there's tennis balls in almost every scene. And that's his passion. He's a dog. He's a dog. Well, it makes so much sense. But yes, we have an incredible returning guest. So let's get her in here. Oh, yes. Yes, she's a video essayist. You remember her from our episodes on Wild Things, Space Jam, Gone Girl. It's Princess Weeks. Hi, everybody. Welcome back. I'm so happy to be back. And I think Tashi was a marketing major. Ooh. Yeah. Because we do see her do marketing-y things. Totally makes sense. I do feel like Tashi was taking college seriously. We just didn't get to see it happening. Exactly. The movie was not interested in that. It was like, what if she is a tennis dom? Yes. And that's what the movie's about. Thank God. And that is a compelling question. Yeah. Princess, tell us what your relationship with this movie is. Wow. I mean, I just was so excited to see Zendaya in a movie that had nothing to do with anyone from Euphoria. That was initially... The big draw. And I grew up loving tennis. You know, I think every woman, but especially every black girl, grew up just loving the Savina and Venus Williams. And so I have a lot of just love for watching, you know, black women in tennis. And then, you know, the hint of bisexual men. It's a siren song that'll get me every time. We didn't know we were going to have heated rivalries. So I was just very much invested in, like, finally after this sexless drought that we were dealing with with contemporary films to actually have something that was erotic and interesting and, like, for adults specifically. And so it just was this moment of, like, oh, my God, an adult movie starring Zendaya that got pushed back during the pandemic. What? We're here. We're back. Cinema. Yeah, I feel like Challengers walked so that heated rivalry could run. It's true. Yeah, Challengers could kiss, so heated rivalry could absolutely raw fuck. Thank God for that. Yeah, true. Yeah. Jamie, what about you? What's your relationship with Challengers? I really like it. I really like it. I saw it in theaters in Boston when it first came out, which was kind of fun because a lot of this movie is shot in Boston. Yeah, this was a movie that, from the second I saw the trailer, which I'm very excited to talk about, and I was reminded of because of Princess's wonderful video essay about Challengers and about Tashi Duncan. She's a man in her makeup. And we're sort of like... But from the second I saw the trailer, I was like, oh, this is... I'm in. I'm horny. This was a trip where I think I saw both love lives bleeding and Challengers. Oh. Which are amazing. That's a horny day. It was a horny, horny time for me. I was looking to escape and there were horny movies out. It was great. And I feel like these two movies are weirdly in conversation with each other in a way I'm excited to talk about. Anyways, I love Challengers. We'll be talking about it critically today, but man, I turned this movie on and I've blacked out. I'm fucked up. I get horny. And that shot of Zendaya watching the boys kiss. Oh, really? Goals. A generational image. I'm very excited to talk about it. Also, I didn't know shit about tennis, really, outside of watching Venus and Serena growing up, until like two days ago, when I started getting ready for this episode. Also, thanks in part to Princess's video. So I'm very excited to live, laugh, learn. Katelyn, what about you? I also saw this movie in theaters, in Oxford, England, I've never heard of it. Because I was there during the Shrek Tannock tour that Jamie, you tragically, were not able to join me for. I was in Boston witnessing death. And seeing horny movies. And seeing. Those were sort of the two things I was doing at that time. The spectrum of life. Exactly. And so I just had sort of like a free day that I didn't really have anything else going on. And everyone was talking about challengers. So I went to go see it and I enjoyed it a lot. I love the soundtrack, the score, like the music does a lot. I remember thinking that it ended too abruptly and I wanted, I kind of wish the movie had the guts to like put them into a threple at the end or something. And I'll talk more about that. But overall, I enjoyed it. This is one of those movies where, so sometimes when we watch a movie for this podcast and I'm prepping and after my first watch, I have pages and pages of notes because it's such a cut and dry, like problematic things that are very clear. And I have a lot to say that is like exactly what you would expect us to say on the podcast. And then there are other movies where I've done my first watch and I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what to make of this. That's how you know we got a good one on our hand. Yeah, and this was this movie. And then so I had that experience where I watched the whole movie and then I looked at my notes and I had not written a single thing down. And I was like, oh, no, what am I gonna say? Because you were too horny. I was too horny. You're shaking. Vibrating with horniness. And then I went out last night with a friend. We got some drinks. We danced. I haven't danced in ages and I forgot how fun dancing is. Wait, where'd you go? This bar in, I think I was in Cypress Park called Footsies. Oh, Footsies is so fun. Yeah. Wow. I came home. I was tipsy. I was like, I know exactly what I'm going to say now. It was just, I just had to kind of loosen up, I think. And now I have so many thoughts. So this is a fascinating, like you can watch this movie with your brain fully on or your brain fully off. And I feel like it's a good experience either way. Absolutely. It's here's the hilarious thing I was going to say. It's kind of, you know, this movie is challenging to discuss. I was challenged about, I felt challenged by this one. And I also like the deep lore of this movie is so fascinating. In a very parasocial way, I'm so curious about Celine song and Justin Kuritsky's couple, like what is going on with those two? Because this is Justin Kuritsky's who wrote this script, has been married to, is I think most famously Celine's husband as it should be, but he's a great writer as well. And he's like, sort of, we're led, I think, like he's kind of portrayed in past lives as the writer of Boner, remember? Yes. The husband in past lives writes a book called Boner. Boner. Justin Kuritsky's also wrote a novel. So I think, you know, one plus one often equals two. Equals two. I mean, we see a boner in challengers, boner representation, and you're like, OK, yeah, genuinely boner was on his mind at this time. It's giving bisexual. And I say that as a bisexual, I'm like, there's something just very like, because he also wrote queer, I believe, right? And so there's just something kind of algebotique, about his work that I'm very like intrigued by. And I'm like, tell me more. Me too. Yeah, I just I'm very, I don't know. There's few marriages that I want to know more about, quite honestly. But this is one of them. Also, he was did either of you, I remember watching this in like high school or college, the potion seller video. Walt, what is that? What is that? It's like it's a very like low res viral video from 2011. It's so silly. And it's Justin Kuritsky. He like went viral in 2011 for being. Wait, I do think you should both watch it. It makes me laugh. So it's literally it's so 2011 that it's a joke that is based on a filter on photo booth. Oh, photo booth. I kept so many nudes in there. Oh, oh, yes. I used to love this video. It's so well that he wrote challenges. You know what? This is why we say that like men's rights do matter because imagine once in a while. Every once in a while, you need a man who can just do something like this for you. It's true. It's true. I love that we have more subscribers than him, though. That's also reassuring. Very true. One day. Anyway, so shall we take a break and then come back for the recap? Let's do it. Incredible everyday prices. Check the latest investment pieces. Check find it all at Bista Village. Every day, shop with up to 40 percent off your favorite brands like Barber and Mulberry, the thrill of discovery awaits. Bista Village, what will you find? OK, so here's the recap. We are in New Rochelle, New York. Ever heard of it? I hadn't. I had because someone someone who I dated in college briefly was from there. Also speaking of, OK, I forgot the other part of my history with challengers, with tennis. I bought a tennis racket my freshman year of college because I was like, I'm going to get into tennis. I took a few lessons from a sophomore student who was on the men's tennis team. I took a couple lessons and I was like, I'm not good at this. I like it, but I'm not sure if this is the sport for me because if I'm not automatically great at something, I immediately quit. Me too. But I kind of kept taking lessons with him because I thought he was very hot. Katelyn, you have a pattern of doing this. You're not wrong. You're a bit of a challenger yourself. I'm kind of a challenger in this way. And then I eventually was like, I'm busy. I can't anymore. Flash forward to four years later. I see this guy at a bar and I was like, oh, hey, remember me? I took ten assessments from you. And he's like, yeah, I remember it. And I was like, should we kiss or something? And then and then I started a torrid affair with this man. And when I say that, I mean, we had really bad sex because he was really bad at sex a couple of times. And then I was like, wow, I also quit this because this time at this time, you're the one who's bad at the thing. And I'm out of here. And so that's my hero. Tennis, thank you. For many reasons, but I just find that that's very Tashi Duncan of you. I feel like Tashi Duncan does not have time for someone who. Well, actually, I don't know. Do we do we think our Donaldson is good at sex? We I think so. I feel like he's a tender lover. I think he's a giver. I think he's definitely a giver. He can find the clip, but he finds it so quickly that the appeal gets lost, you know, because she likes the challenge. Yeah, exactly. Yes. It was really it was really interesting like watching this movie, not just to get horny, but to really pay attention to the relationship dynamics, because I think like Mike, is it Mike Feist? Feist? Is that how we say it? I'm not sure. Face. Feist. He I feel like his performance was talked about the least and I understand why, but I think he's really cooking in this. He is he plays he plays the cock very well. I find his relationship dynamic with Tashi very compelling. And again, goals because I want to be a Dom to a man sub. Yeah, as my friend, Sidney would say, I all blonde men should be submissive. And he has like perfect bottom face. Like it's just like it's just like you look at it, you're like, absolutely. It's the big eyes. It's open face, but he's like very masculine still. But there's this like tenderness where it's like, yes, open. He's kind of like a diabolical bottom too, because he's always like the best kind. He's scheming. I kind of yeah, I was so taken in by the Patrick of it all, which is always the case. You get taken in by the Patrick and then like Tashi, you dump him. You come for the Patrick, you stay for the art. Yeah, but then you get bored of art, you know, it's like it is. And then you maybe start dating women and that's maybe Tashi's story. We don't know. We don't know. We just know that at the end, she's still blue balls. She's like, when are these men going to play real tennis? Yeah, they're hugging like losers. She does not care about their relationship being resolved. She's like play tennis. I love her. OK, so we're in New Rochelle. Right. Right. It's 2019. We are at a tennis competition sponsored by Phil's Tire Town. It's so random that we're in 2019, by the way. Like it is a period piece by way of like three years. It's weird, but I thought it was kind of fun. Yeah, I think it's just so that they could do hot in here in the flashback. That's the only that's the only reasoning I could find. And that's worth it. That's worth it. And apparently that's not the song that was playing when the scene happened because everyone was like, why isn't Day of Dancing so like off beat to hide here? And then she was like, it wasn't me guys. Apparently, like when they were filming, it was like a Bowie song or something melodic and dreamy and then they just put in hot in here and post. So the day I can dance, guys, don't let them fool you. I love movie. Wow, that's great. Movie magic. Anyway, so there it Phil's Tire Town challenger. And I will mention Phil's Tire Town a hundred times throughout this throughout this recap, because we keep cutting back to this match. Anyway, we meet Patrick Zweig, played by Joshua Connor and Art Donaldson, played by Mike Fais, or however you say it, who play each other in a series of matches and watching them in the stands is Tashi Donaldson, formerly Tashi Duncan, played by Zendaya, who is married to Art. And then both men look at Tashi meaningfully and we're like, hmm, what's that all about? This movie is the male gaze is back and it's in the movie Challengers. Yeah, we are seeing men gaze and not respectfully. But I'm into it. I don't. I kind of don't mind it. We also see tennis ball gaze. We are seeing things from the point of view of a tennis ball at one point. I was trying to track that because I do think that we generally see Tashi play tennis from the male gaze, but we do see the guys play tennis from the female gaze. It's not like it's exclusively the male gaze. And then occasionally we switch to the tennis balls gaze, which I had never even considered. Yeah, it's the pansexual gaze. Everyone is getting their own vision of like what makes them horny. And the tennis ball just wants to be held, you know, it wants to be at the center of the passion. That's where that's where my cocker spaniel really locked in. He's like, yeah, what about the tennis ball? Finally, someone talking about the main character. The protagonist of Challengers, the tennis ball. OK, so then we cut to two weeks earlier. We learn more about Art and Tashi. Tashi is a former tennis champ, but had to retire and enter career early after a knee injury. She is now Arts, like coach slash manager. They also have a daughter together who loves into the spiderverse. So, you know, she has great taste. I love that was a great child representation. Yes, we see Art play a match and lose. He is apparently rusty after recovering from a recent injury. Tashi tells him to get his shit together and start winning, which is why she suggests that he plays something that he's sure to win, such as this Phil's Tire Town challenger. And I don't exactly know enough about tennis to know specifically what a challenger is or what the parameters of it are. My understanding, because I really tried to understand tennis for this. And I did. I stayed up late last night watching one of many Venus and Serena docks. And I don't know. I just like, anyway, I was trying to get caught up. A challenger, I think, is like a low rung pro match, but like harder to be a lower rung. It's it's kind of JV, but it's still technically pro tennis. And is it the type of thing that I, depending on how you rank in it, it can like qualify you for one of these like US open kind of things. Yeah, because Patrick says that on his on his very depressing date. Yeah, poor woman. I know. But yeah, where I think he's saying that like, this is something that could, you know, if you perform well, it could sort of get you into one of those top 120, whatever spots. Yeah. OK, so then we cut to Patrick Zweig, who is trying to get a room at a hotel so that he can rest before this tire town match challenger thing that he is also playing. And it starts the following day, but he's completely broke and he can't afford to pay for the room. So he sleeps in his car. He's hoping to win the challenger because the winner gets seven thousand dollars. So he's in kind of dire straits, although we learn later that he comes from a very well to do family and seems like he could ask his family for money and then he just chooses not to. So he is one of the most frustrating personality types. He's rich guy, cosplaying as poor guy. Yeah, exhausting. And it's like it's like pure early homosexual representation that's just like, how does he? Where does he live underneath people? That's how he finds a place to live. Kind of guy. I feel like I met a lot of guys like this in college, a guy that you are like, oh, wow, I feel like I have stuff in common with him. And then later you see what his family is like. And you're like, I cannot believe I've lent this person money. He's really frustrating, which, of course, means that he's probably great at sex. Absolutely. Also, I just love Joshua Cotter. Like I know hot man, hot politics, hot girlfriend. Yes. Wait, what's her? I just saw her in Oliver out the the the saving grace of what they're like. Absolutely. She's so they're so good together. I love Irish love and I'm just like that. That's the third I would be in between. It's just like I will I'll sign up for that challenger event. Yes, that's your challenger. So Patrick checks in for this tournament where, by the way, there is Dunkin Donuts representation because the woman that he checks in with is eating a dunks egg and cheese and bagel sandwich. I was doing the same thing just this morning. I was like, yes, we're so. Wow. Is what the culture is feeling, you know? Dunks is back. Yeah. Then we flash back to 13 years prior. Patrick and Art are 18 years old, I think. They're best friends. They are playing doubles tennis together at the junior US Open. They win their match and then they watch Tashi Duncan play. They do not yet know her, but they know of her and they're like hubba, hubba, a woo guh, both at how attractive she is and also her amazing tennis skills because she is a champ. They spot her at a party that night where she is dancing off Pete too hot in here. They sprint up to her. It is comical how they just rush her and they're like, hey, what's up? Where Art and Patrick? They also humiliatingly call themselves Fire and Ice when they're. I know. I do feel like they capture a beautiful like men being embarrassing together like as teenagers. It's it's really captured Fire and Ice and she's like, so who's who? And they're like, yeah, it's like it's it's one of those things where it's like there are those moments where like I am attracted to men. And it just is like it was one of those moments where I'm just kind of like as painful as it is. I'm so I would be so lost. I would be like, this would work on me and I hate that. I mean, especially the moment where, yeah, I was like, wow, I've been alone in this cabin for too long where clearly like they're just going to wait for her as long as they need to for her to pay attention to them. And it seems like they wait for hours hours. And it is just like, God, being on the receiving end of that, even if you're like not particularly attracted to the person doing it, it can just be like, I'm so powerful. This rocks now go away. So beautiful. It's like it's one of those things where like I am like, I love this. I just love I just love her power. I love just the way that she like sits in her own will. And I think that's what makes Tashi such an interesting character. And I think just from like a character standpoint, it's such an interesting thing for Zendaya to do, because I think that this is something that her career really needed because she was going in that space where she's been playing like young adults and like teenagers for such a long period of time, even though she isn't like she is 30. And it felt like her first truly adult role. And I just want her to find her Ryan Coogler or her Nia Dacosta, who will like really take all of her acting potential and start curating movies around her for that potential, which I think this movie really well does. Yes, I'm very excited for the drama for that reason. I'm like very curious if that utilizes her the way she deserves to be utilized. Is that the one that she's in with Robert Pattinson? Yeah, OK, which as soon as I saw that casting, I was like, inspired, especially because now especially because now, you know, Tom Holland is now Tom Zendaya and like locked down as he should. And yeah, that's he's got that art energy in real life. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And we're rooting for it. He really does. Yeah. It's just I love their relationship. I love that I know basically nothing about it. And I love they're seeing like little bits and pieces of her and Robert Pattinson in conversation with each other. So funny because she is like so clearly the adult in the room, in spite of the fact that he's, I think, like 10 years older than her, where she just she is so poised. I love her. She's amazing. Actually, I think she's older than him. No, they're the same age. No. They're the same age. Really? Wait, her and Tom Holland. I was talking about Robert Pattinson. Oh, Robert Pattinson. Yes. Oh, my God. Sorry. Robert Pattinson is like 40. Is he my age? Yes. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. He's really close to your age. She was born on May 13th. Oh, yeah. We always figure this out. I always look. This has happened on the podcast several times. I find out his birthday is right next to mine and they were the same age. I love that. Well, he's he's Gen Z emotionally. So that's why. Yes. Right. Right. Right. Right. OK, so they're at this party. They wait for her because their conversation gets cut short. They're desperate to talk to her. So they stick around. They invite her to hang out. She agrees. They talk about tennis and she's basically like you guys are not tennis players. You think you are, but you're not. Tennis is a relationship. And that's not what you're doing when you're playing. And then they're like, by the way, we both want your number. And we also want you to come to our hotel room later tonight. And she's like, yeah, OK. But she does show up then. Such a great sequence that like you see everyone's perspective in this where they're like, she's not coming. And then there's a knock on the door. And I think Mike Fais like does a flip over himself. Yes, to get ready. So it's off the bed. But the underrated part of that sequence is when you see Zendaya hearing all of this happening and like laughing from behind the door and then pulling it together in time for the door to open. It's so good. Cinema so powerful. I just I just love how thirsty they are for her the entire time. It's just like, it's just like, yes, actually, you should be thirsty for I mean, it's one of the hottest people ever to be alive. And just cool. Like, I think also what makes the Tashi character work is that Zendaya is cool. Like Zendaya has like that quality of her that makes her seem intense. And then also just like high glam. It's like, yes, this totally makes sense. An icon. Yeah. It's true. OK. So she's in their hotel room. They're kind of flirting. She asks if they've ever hooked up with each other. And they're like, well, no, but no. We learned that Patrick taught art how to jerk off. OK, so we have the top, bottom established. Got it, got it, got it. Just just boys being boys, you know. Yup. I love being a teenager who does not yet realize you're bisexual. You're just like, no, that was just like a weird thing that happened. What? I just thought my homeboy had a jerk off. Like someone has to do it, right? So why wouldn't it be me? I was like, no, me and my best friend would just practice kissing to Madonna's American life. Like it's just sort of like so we would know how to kiss when boys wanted to kiss us. We just trying to keep warm in the winter time and keep warm by snuggling and making out like, obviously, obviously just girls being girls. Yes. OK, so then Tashi sits on the bed and beckons for them to join her. And they leap at the opportunity. She kisses art, then Patrick, then back to art and back and forth. And then there's a three way kiss, which she backs away from. So now it's just art and Patrick making out. And she's loving this again, the look on her face. It's gorgeous. It's just beautiful. And I did not know. So that is not in the original script written by the potion master. The ocean master himself, the potion master himself. This was insisted upon by where I can. Luca Guadagnino, who said who had a very Italian way of describing why that's needed to happen. This is from an interview with the potion master. Luca felt it was very important that in any love triangle, all the corners touch. And I quickly realized he meant it literally. I was like, oh, that's so Italian. That's beautiful. Let him remake the Twilight movies. Let the tips touch is what said. Yeah. So they're making out and Tashi is loving it. And then she goes to leave and they're like, well, what about your number? And she says whoever wins the match they're competing against each other in the following day will get her number. Because at the end of the day, what Tashi Duncan wants to have sex with is tennis. Yes. And that is why she can never fully be satisfied. And it is an incredible. It's so cool. OK, then we cut to their match. They are both desperate to win so as to get Tashi's number. But before we know the result, we cut back to Phil's Tire Town challenger, although it's a few days before the match where Patrick and Art play each other. Patrick is on Tinder, swiping right on everyone because we learn that he needs a place to sleep that night. He gets a match and goes on a date. He surprises this date and I do not like the way that is handled. But at the bar, he sees Tashi and she's like, what the fuck are you doing here? So we learn that oops, they're not on good terms. We flash back to 13 years prior after the one on one match, which apparently Patrick won because now Art is prying for details about whether or not Patrick and Tashi have had sex. And Art says, if you do serve the ball like I do, because he has this specific serving habit and if they didn't have sex, Patrick should just serve it like himself because the whole thing here is Tashi was like, don't tell anyone that we're fucking because I'm embarrassed to be what seems. I do think it's kind of funny that she does seem to be like a deal is a deal. I guess you're my boyfriend now. Well, you didn't have to honor that, but you do date the fuck boy first. She will. She I think she uses men to vicariously have sex with them so that she can feel like she's having sex with tennis tennis. So she keeps Patrick around. And this is where Tashi Duncan and my son have a lot in common in that way. Yeah, you can't just have sex with a tennis ball. So you have to figure out how else can you satisfy? Exactly. Yeah, you have to find a human conduit by which you can have sex with tennis. And that's what Tashi is doing the whole movie. Okay, then Patrick serves it like Art serves the ball, indicating that Patrick and Tashi did indeed have sex and Art is jealous. No, he's fine. He's fine. That's this whole thing. He's like, that's fine. He's actually I love my friends. He's so like clenched spiritually. Yeah. Yep. Then it is 12 years prior to the present. So it's like a year after the boys have met Tashi, Tashi and Art are both at Stanford on tennis scholarships, it seems. They're pals, though Tashi and Patrick are still dating much to Arts dismay because it's clear that he is absolutely in love with her. Then Patrick comes to campus to visit Tashi. But first he's hanging out with Art. They're sitting very close to each other, eating churros, parentheses, phallic. Yeah, they're they're not, you know, it's not subtext. It's just text. Anytime these guys are eating there, it's it's a full thick. Oh, it's bananas. Oh, it's churros. I'm surprised they don't eat a hot dog. It's and they take a bite out of each other. Like you think so. He like that's love. That's that's an indirect kiss. You can't lie to me. Yeah, that's them making out again, basically. Patrick senses that Art is still in Tashi and that he's trying to get in between them and like kind of break them up. And Patrick is like, he's kind of like turned on by this. He's like, he's like, honestly, this is hot. He's like, you could try and it's making you a better tennis player. Tashi is also turned on sexually and athletically by this love triangle situation. There's a scene where she's trying to coach Patrick, who seems to have just like, I don't think he's in college. I think he went straight to pro. And then we start to see this, the beginning of this sort of like Dom sub dynamic that she's projecting where she is the Dom and she wants to coach men, tell them what to do, tell them how to play tennis. And she wants a submissive man to be receptive to that. Trouble is Patrick is not into it. So they argue and then he leaves. Tashi goes to her match where she's playing great until this is when she very badly injures her knee and art, who is at the match, runs to her side. Patrick shows up once he has heard what happened, but Tashi and art send him packing. And now it's Tashi and art together. It's so interesting how like, I don't know, on this rewatch, there, whatever, in the specific way that like someone who knows you as you're growing up can just clock you and clock your intentions in ways that people you meet as an adult kind of can't, no matter how close you are to them. Patrick, while a huge asshole is really good at knowing what people are up to and just saying it, because what he says to art a few scenes earlier of like, I know it's like not your style to just make a move. You're just going to hang out in the sidelines until I fuck up and then you're going to swoop in, which is exactly what happens. His third eye is so open. It's like, he's like, he's like, he only uses it for evil. Evil and sex. That's it. He's like, I can do two things, three things really well and none of them are constructive to my mental health. Right. But like he, he at different points, like, especially with art because they're, you know, the boner boys from boarding school or whatever, jerk off brothers, you know, the jerk off brothers, disgusting brothers. They're the disgusting brothers. There it is. They're the disgusting brothers. But with Tashi too, like he much later in the movie pretty much states the state of her marriage after witnessing it for like 12 seconds. And you're like, well, you're not wrong. And it's all true. And that's the worst part. There's nothing worse than your ex being right about your life. You're like, shut up. You don't know me hot dog man. And meanwhile, and meanwhile, sometimes you get clocked, you get clocked by the hot dog man. Then we get another quick glimpse of the Phil's Tire Town match between Art and Patrick because the movie again keeps periodically cutting back to this. Then we flash back to the aftermath of Tashi's injury. She is recovering. She's practicing with art, but her game is not what it used to be. It's pretty clear that her tennis career is over. As is her relationship with Patrick. And again, art is there to console her. Then we cut to three years after that. Tashi is now coaching tennis. Art is a rising star. He suggests she be his assistant coach. And she's like, well, what about how you're in love with me? And he's like, Tihi, I don't know. Also, this all happens at an Applebee's, which is great. Yeah, very romantic. We love the representation of the working classes. Like we sure do. And then he's like, Hey, what if we kiss? And she responds by going and they're making out. Then we cut back to tired town timeline. A little after Tashi and Patrick have run into each other. And he approaches her to be like, will you be my coach? And she says, okay, here's my coaching. Quit tennis, you bitch. And they talk a little bit about her relationship with art, how she clearly resents him. And then Patrick asks if art knows about Atlanta. And we're like, hmm, what happened there? We flash back to eight years prior in Atlanta, where art and Tashi are because he's competing in the Atlanta Open, as is Patrick. And during the tournament, Patrick runs into Tashi late at night when she's having a drink at a bar. And he's also wearing her shirt. Yes, because it's a shirt she is wearing in college that he's clearly hung on to the shirt that says I told you. Well, it shows up at the hotel wearing her shirt. And you're like, oh, he's such a slut. Yeah, he really is. He's really testing the boundaries. I love him. He's so evil. I love him. I love him so much. Fuck, I hate him. I love him. I hate him, but I love him. God, so powerful. They start kissing and then a little later, art sees the two of them. Not while they're kissing, but they're like close and cozy. He gets distracted for a moment. And when he looks back, they are gone. It seems like they've left together. And I believe the implication is they go to have sex with each other. Yeah. And art pretends he does not see it. He's poor thing. That's kind of his, his mode. He's like my femdom wife, or I think fiance at this point, can do whatever she wants. And I can't say a damn thing about it. And it's true. You really can. That's the arrangement. You get what you pay for. We cut back to the night before the art Patrick match at the Tire Town Challenger. Art tells Tashi that he wants to quit tennis soon. That he's tired and worn out, but he also wants validation one way or another from Tashi, because again, that's his whole thing. Constantly seeking validation from her. He's like, hold me until I fall asleep, mommy. And she does kind of the opposite of that. She does for a little bit, but this makes her absolutely despondent. So after art falls asleep, she links up with Patrick to tell him that she wants him to lose tomorrow so that art will have the confidence to keep playing. And Patrick is like, fuck you. I'm pretty sure you came here tonight to have sex with me. And she's like, no, I didn't. And then he's like, yes, you did. And she's like, maybe. And then as they're sort of arguing about this, and also she spits in his face. Yeah. She also has like slapped him earlier this like earlier in the day, like work the week. Everyone is getting off on all of this. It's so toxic. Yeah. Yep. So she spits in his face. She storms away, but then she turns back around and they start passionately making out. They have sex in his car. And it seems like the agreement is basically because she fucked him, he will agree to lose the following day to art. We cut back to the end of the match. It is neck and neck. It's unclear who will win. It's unclear whether or not Patrick will honor this agreement. Patrick is about to serve. And then he does the callback to the thing that we saw earlier in the movie, which is that he serves the ball like art does, indicating that he and Tashi recently had sex. Everyone in my theater gasped when this happened. It was like a visceral life. An art is shook to his very core. Yeah. Patrick serves again. He wins the match, but there's one match left, a tiebreaker. I do love the Wikipedia summary for this. They say during the tiebreak, art and Patrick furiously trade ground strokes. And you're like, yeah, OK. They sure do. Whatever that means. Emphasis on strokes, the jerk off brothers strike again. You know, when you're, you know, when the disgusting brothers are furiously trading ground strokes. Oh, my God. They put a little they put a little dot on each other's head to be like, I choose you. I I would describe it as them volleying back and forth. But what do I know? I mean, there's there is a hornier way to say that. So one and one disgusting Wikipedia user did. Found the way. Yeah. And as they're doing this, they're getting closer and closer to each other. And eventually they're so close that art jumps up and then kind of lands on Patrick and they're hugging. And then also our one the match just now because we cut to Tashi and she's very, very happy. And that's how the movie ends. So let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss. The Southwest famous for our countryside. So if you want to career in green skills, working with nature, animals or clean energy, study where it all happens. Cannington College from our borough culture to animal management. Hands on learning with cutting edge facilities, including the Cannington Aircoin Center and National College for Nuclear. Register now for our next event, Wednesday, the 29th of April from six until eight PM. Search UCS College Group dot AC dot UK. So best. And we're back and we're back. I mean, hard to begin. Princess, guess choice. Where would you like to start? Oh, my God, there's so many furiously trade ground strokes throughout this discussion. This is gross. I mean, what is podcasting? What is a conversation? If not, but a furious trade. Ground stroking over the air. Yeah, into your ears. You know, I think one thing I was thinking about in preparation for this specific conversation, I know we'll get into like if it passes the Bechdel test later. Yeah. But I wonder what you guys feel about Tashi being often the sole woman in the room around these two men. Because I feel like that in itself is like this interesting conversation because she is arguably the most talented of the three of them. But she's also the most marginalized. And that really sort of plays into her relationship to both of them because she is sort of between these two white men who are, you know, going to get more opportunities than her, no matter how talented she is. And then with her injury, she kind of ends up having to almost lean on them. It's like an interesting dynamic between her and the two boys. And I find that besides the sexiness of it, I find it just like narratively compelling. Yeah, I agree. I feel like I and this was something that I was like because I watched your video, did a bunch of tennis research and then rewatched challengers because I was trying to like take the horny gauze off of my previous viewings of it. And you said something in your video that really stuck with me, which is that we really only see Tashi once that isn't in a scene with one of the guys. This is definitely not true for the guys. We see the guys together alone a number of times, which is why I think they are ultimately kind of the protagonists of the movie, even though Tashi is the central figure. But the only time I think that we see Tashi without one of them is when she is alone on campus after she's been injured by the tree crying. Yeah. Yes. That's the only time we see her certainly alone, but also like without one of the guys that and like the moment she gets back from having sex with Patrick, but that's only a couple seconds, really. And it's interesting because it's I don't know. I she's such a compelling figure. And because the focus of the movie is so on the triangle, we don't really get an idea of, I don't know, like, I think it comes through in the performance who she is outside of this dynamic. But we don't get to see very much of that, although I guess you could say the same for the guys, but they have the preexisting relationship. I don't know. Yeah. But it really struck me that that is the only time we see her by herself. It does make you wonder, does she have any friends who are women, any tennis players, like athletes who are women that she is buds with? Makes you wonder what she's like as a mother. We see a tiny, tiny glimpse of it when they're talking about Spider-Verse. But aside from that, we see very, very little of her interactions with her daughter. We see a few interactions with Tashi and her mother, who seems to be present in the story because she is the caretaker of their daughter. But yeah, we really don't see. I mean, this movie is just so hyper hyper focused on tennis and this love triangle, the Thrupple situation, or what should be a Thrupple. And it just doesn't really dedicate any time to anything else. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Like a lot of stories are very hyper focused on a specific thing. But I feel like there was still room for giving us a little bit more of a glimpse into, like, what else? Like, even if it just told us as something, something as simple as what was her major? Because she even says, like, I'm going to college because I want to learn things and I want to take classes and I don't want my only skill in life to be hitting a ball with a racket. But then the movie doesn't bother to tell us, well, what is she pursuing? Well, I do think so. I'm so on the fence about this. And I want to know what you think about it, Princess, because it's like, that's that is definitely true. And then I also kept like second guessing myself because there is a lot we learn in passing and through the performance where like that line, I don't want to just only know how to hit a ball with a racket is called back later when she's at the Applebee's with art. And she says, well, it turns out all I know how to do is hit a ball with a racket. And so it's like, she does eventually kind of resign herself to the idea. And I don't think like unhappily, but like she is like that tennis is the thing she cares about. It's not like she's being forced to remain there. She wants to be there. Yeah, I don't know. I think that there's almost like a classic film quality to the movie in the sense where like the actor is giving back story through their performance of it all. Yeah. And I think that is effective. And I think also, if you know anything about women's tennis, there's a lot of just sort of like a lot of things happening up beneath the surface, because the reality is, is that like, you don't really steal out of women tennis friendships that are like of the same generation. Like there usually is like the older person is kind of like the mentor figure and then the younger person is like the up and comer. And that's the dynamic. Like I was thinking about how like Billie Jean King's relationship with the Williams sisters and like stuff like that. Yeah, it's like more of like a mentor, mentee kind of deal. Yeah. Like in the Williams sisters with like, you know, Coco Goff and like Naomi Osaka, it's like there isn't a lot of like gender. Like rivalry tends to be the thing that gets the more attention than like friendship. He did rivalry. He did. And so there's this aspect of in a certain way, it makes sense that Toshi has no female friends because everyone is her rival. Because there is no room to like, she doesn't have like a sister to like be her doubles partner and she's not doing doubles. So there is no space for her to be it. And it's also just very white in general. And so there isn't, there's always going to be contrasting things happening. And I think that is like the subtext of a lot of Toshi's experience. And it's clear from reading interviews that that is what they were bringing into that character. But what I do think is always an interesting question and not necessarily criticism is like, how much of that is known can be absorbed by the audience that doesn't have this background knowledge of the sport. Right. Because the movie doesn't delve into any of that explicitly. I mean, I learned so much about it from your video where you talk about like the context of a character like Toshi coming up in the era that she does as a black woman tennis player in the wake of Serena and Venus Williams before them, Althea Gibson. But if you don't already know that context, it's not like the movie tells you any of it. So right. And it's like, and it's hard because it's like, I don't know. Like I was having, it's part of why this movie is so challenging because it's not like the movie is giving you that context for men's tennis. It's not giving you any context. It's just throwing you in and being like, so you've seen a tennis match. Yada, yada, it's a metaphor for sex. But but yeah, I feel like with Toshi specifically, because Potion Master did say specifically that he he wrote, you know, like this was not written for a white woman and then was later, you know, like, oh, well, Zendaya's interested. So now Toshi Duncan is a black woman. Toshi Duncan was always written as a black woman. I'm going to quote Potion Master here. He said, Toshi was always a black woman. Patrick was always a well to do Jewish guy and art was always a somewhat well to do wasp. And so these characters were very clearly specified in the original script. And I think that that does, again, like come through. But like you're saying, Princess, I think primarily in the performance, there's a few lines of dialogue that could give you some insight into it that I think you shouted out in your video as well of when they're about to have the big awesome kissing scene. The two guys are talking about how they were boarding school roommates. And they're like, did you go to boarding school trying to be like just rich kids hanging out? And she was like, well, no, we couldn't afford it. And even if we could have, my parents wouldn't have wanted me in that environment. There is one offline where she's talking about the girl she was playing tennis against when we first see her, who she says pretty offhand. She's like, oh, she's you don't feel bad for her. She's a racist bitch. It's fine. And like her character is very both very specific and very left open to interpretation. And I think that's interesting because it kind of reminds me in like an odd way of like Pacific Rim and how like when you have a woman of color in a role that is not traditionally where we see women of color, how then does that change the way that we operate in terms of like traditional feminist critical lens, which while should be all encompassing does tend to lean towards white womanhood. Because I think if Tashi were a white woman, we might be having different conversations about it, but she isn't. And and that's intentional and that creates other layers of conversation between everyone involved, which I just think is inherently interesting. Like, I think that it's interesting to deal with the film that doesn't want to tell you everything, but has so much in the background of its intentionality that you can't help but want to pull on more threads of it. So I don't think of it as like a failing of challengers, but I do think it's something that I think got overlooked to a certain degree. And that's why it got ignored when it came to like a lot of awards stuff, because it is a really rich film, but I feel like people only saw the horniness and all of the kind of like even even within that horn is any sort of like commentary of like, it's not as if Patrick is openly bisexual, you know, like it's not as if he's flamboyant about it and how that would impact his career and all those other things are there, but they're not the main focus in the way that the relationship is. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, like rewatching it with my horny goggles off and my context goggles on there again, it's just like a passing moment with with Patrick where he's on Tinder or whatever app. Like swiping and it's like people of all genders are showing up, but he hesitates before swiping right on a man. So it's like just in a gesture communicates like he is bisexual, but he still hasn't like really come to terms with that. And then with Tashi, one of the things that I really appreciated was left open undid and I'm curious what you both think about it is that she is a mom who seems like a caring mom, but it her role as a mother is not harped upon and it seems like she is like not her child's primary caretaker. And I didn't feel that the movie was judging her for that. And I've very rarely seen, you know, a central woman who has kids that like motherhood isn't a main element of her character. And this movie does not really prioritize that for either of them. I mean, we see that like clearly they love their child. You know, Lily, I don't know what kind of kid does Lily grow up to be growing up in hotels with her grandma? I don't know. But I appreciated that, you know, in a societal landscape that is very quick to judge mothers and rarely have ever judges fathers. It seems like this is just a dynamic that is presented without judgment. And then you as the viewer can just make of it what you will. I think there are there are many examples of Tashi being presented in a way that we do not often see women represented on screen in a way that the movie does not pass judgment on her. Similar to what you're talking about, Jamie, a few other examples are there's the scene where she and Art are at Stanford. She is dating Patrick, but Art is clearly in love with her. He's trying to break them up. And he says something like, he's not in love with you. And she stops in her tracks and kind of slowly turns around and comes back. And we are conditioned to think that a woman being told that a man isn't in love with her will make her be like, Oh, my God, oh, no, this is devastating. I can't be with someone who doesn't love me. But instead, she says, what makes you think I want someone to be in love with me? Did I ever say I was in love with him? And he's like, no, you didn't. And she's like, well, so why would I give a fuck if he loved me or not? And he says, like, don't you think you deserve it? Like, which is he's being so I never like really listened to that line in context before he's being so manipulative there. I know. He's doing a thing that like male feminists do. Are they like, you deserve better girl. And by better, I mean me specifically. It's so. And that's the thing. I think that's why, like, there's a lot of bias between like people who like aren't people who love Patrick, you know, unfortunately, the dirtbag with the huge penis lends out like, I'm sorry. Like, at least he's he's he's a dirtbag. He he lives in his car, but he's funny. And he's not and he's not trying to like soft launch a relationship while I'm with someone else through emotional manipulation. He just won the tennis match like an adult. I get it. I get it. Like, it's I don't know if you can't win, right? Where it's like having because in Tashi seems with Patrick, it's like he is not on her. I mean, neither of these guys are on her level remotely. But Patrick, I think, is able to like scratch an itch that she needs, which is someone who is going to like challenge her and challenge her. Yeah, challenge her. Wow, challenge hers. OK, we're actually recording this on International Women's Day, and that was really impactful. Challenge her. Well, I'm I'm with challenge her. I'm with. But he he is like willing to have have an argument with her in a way she seems to want, but not in a long term way. She does want a sub at home, but she does want to have a guy to argue with who has a huge dick and is a mess. And you're like, yeah, which are hard. It's hard to have all these things at once. I know it's a woman trying to have it all. But these are also all of the ways in which we almost never see women represented on screen, the fact that she is way better at the sport that she plays than the men around her, that she is like the best of everyone, including all the men, the fact that she is kind of using men to like live vicariously through them so that she can still do tennis things. And I'm not praising that as a good quality to have. Obviously, you should not use people. But my point is she has flaws. She has layers. She can be messy. She can be calculating. And we usually do not get to see a woman portrayed in these types of ways in movies because normally we see women who are either like perfect little angels who would never make a mistake or do anything wrong or women who are given so little characterization that you don't even know what choices they would make. So even though Tashi is like not behaving well a lot of the time, it's more interesting than the like nothing characters we so often see with women in movies. So there's that. There's the fact that she loves tennis more than she will ever love any man. And like the men around her do not know what to do with that exactly. The fact that again, and I'm going to keep harping on this like dom sub dynamic thing. It's not how we traditionally think of dom sub dynamics in like the kink sphere. But she is in her relationship with art. The dominant figure who is always telling him what to do, how to play tennis, which tournaments he's going to compete in. He never pushes back. He just says whatever you want, babe. Also that scene. So there's a scene at the very beginning where she's like, you're humiliating yourself. You need to get your shit together. Like let's have you do something that you can win so that you can stop being such a loser. And that scene ends with her Han soloing him where he's like, I love you. And she's like, I know. And he kind of loves that, though. He kind of loves that. If it was easy, he wouldn't be there. And I think that's sort of like what's interesting about their dynamic. And I also love like to what you're saying, Caitlin, I definitely feel like she resents the fact that like I literally physically can't play this game anymore. And if I could, I would, but I can't. And like, and now you're here crying about, oh, I think I want to retire early. I didn't get a chance to retire early. You know, I didn't get a chance to even go as far as I knew I was capable of. And so I think part of why she finds both of them frustrating is like these are two guys who cannot use their privilege to do the thing that she could do well with less of it. Yeah. It's like, it's like, it's like, it's exhausting. It's like, you guys have money and ability and the physicality. And yet you just won't. Right. And your men and your white. Exactly. And they're both from like, well, our family is in. Like, I mean, that is something that again, like comes up between Tashi and Art very early that I am able to like see how that is like dysfunctional for both of them, where she is putting a lot of pressure on him to do something he doesn't want to do anymore. He says later, like bluntly, like, I'm, I know that I'm playing for both of us. But, but there's a moment where Tashi is so understandably frustrated and she's like, I would have killed for a recovery like yours. Like, and she is to some extent projecting onto him of like, you recovered. So you have to keep going. And it's, I don't know. Like I, I, if there is one thing I wish I, we had more of in this movie is like, Tashi is having to fight against so much. She's not just fighting against massage noir that exists within the sport. She's also fighting against her own body and like the frustration that comes with that and how that clearly, like that is such a big turning point in her life. That and in that same opening sequence, again, it's like all these like little things that they add in that could be a full movie, but it's just like a shot in, in challengers where she is, it kind of was like giving Victoria and David Beckham to me where there's like that. We're working class. What? With that, we're like that big, like ad, that billboard ad that she's editing to reflect that she is a part of it. So she, even though it is like not essential focus, you can tell that the world is trying to frame her as someone's wife and not Tashi Duncan. And she is like having to quietly or loudly push back against that. And I don't know. There's just like so many little things that come through and like Zendaya should have been nominated for everything for this. But no one gets nominated for erotic thrillers. So it didn't happen. But it just like she's doing so much and the script is doing so much too. Just like these little moments that you're like, of course, she is like a ticking time bomb. It's all so fucking frustrating. No. And I definitely feel like I think it's interesting because like when did Baby Girl and like all those kind of movies start coming out? Because I feel like now we're in this place where everyone's around the same time, right? Around the same time. Yeah. Late 2024 was when Baby Girl came out, I think. Yeah. And I feel like we're just getting into this place with the erotic thriller, but also this ability to understand eroticism and affection. And I think where like it's I don't think it's a lazy comparison to be like, you know, heated rivalry and challengers like exist in a similar timeline. And I think that if challengers came out a little bit closer to heated rivalry, people might appreciate it a little bit more because of how like sexually earnest it is. Like I think what's really sweet about art, I think there's a sweetness to art and Patrick's relationship that makes it also really captivating. Like I love Tashi in between both of them. But I also think like that that three way kiss is so compelling because it's like it goes on for a while. It's not like it's not like they see it happen. They're like, oh, that's good. They're like, they're going for it. They lean into it. They're going into it. And it's just like the potential. And they have to know that they are kissing each other and Tashi is not involved. Yeah, I also headcanon. I think they're lying in that earlier in the scene where they're like, they, you know, it's convenient to have the disgusting brothers jerk off story to support it. But I'm like, they've kissed before. That was a first kiss I was looking at over there. It was phenomenal. These boys and they're basically sort of kissing at the end. And Tashi is sort of like whatever, as long as you're playing good tennis while doing whatever you're doing, I'm not bothered by it. Again, they they should just be in a threple. I mean, you mentioned this in your video, Princess, about how all of these characters like should have read the ethical slut and didn't. But like if they just embraced the fact that Tashi wants to have sex with both of them because that's how she has sex with tennis, Art and Patrick want to kiss each other and maybe more because there's all these moments of homoeroticism throughout the movie. There's a part where like Patrick puts his hand on Art's knee. While they're looking at Tashi play. It's awesome. There is there's like the mutual stretching that they do where they're embracing each other. There's the churro eating scene where they're sharing churros and everything they eat is phallic. Yeah, just like all all these moments of physical closeness between them. Well, and it's also not a mistake that like their big confrontation at the challenger is where they're both completely naked in a sauna. Like the movie is not subtle and how they're like a towel over it. It's like, we know you guys are doing Patrick comes in dick out. He's like, you know what this is. So he's like, so about how I'm fucking your wife. Oh my God. There are such babies. I think that that is like, I think all three of them kind of do treat these relationships like a game, but the way that they do is so specific to who the character is where Patrick is still kind of being a teenager. Like I, I don't know. These three, these three, who knows what the hell is going on with them. But I, but I love that. I'd love to watch it. I love whatever the hell's going on here. I wish I could just trade like cancel euphoria season three. Let's just do challenger season one. Let's just go right there. Oh, it would be so good. Another, I mean, just speaking to it is all these like little moments, but how it does seem like Patrick and art genuinely in different ways want Tashi's validation. Another moment that I picked up on in this most recent watch was after she and Patrick have sex in his car the night before the challenger or like the finals. He starts getting very like post-coital affectionate with her. And he's like, I miss watching you do. You play tennis. You're so beautiful. And she's like, so anyways, tennis, like let's talk about my true love. Speaking of what I care about. Like she just doesn't care. And I love their confrontation when she with her bob and her sweater. It's just so great where she says to his face, you look like shit. She she calls him out directly for cosplaying as a poor person. You know, she says like your dreams are shit, your garbage. And he, you know, Patrick can take shit like that in stride, which I think is appealing to Tashi. He seems to kind of get off on being called a piece of shit. A lot of rich guys are like that. But he like gives it back to her the same way they did when they were in a relationship together. And it's like, well, you don't you don't love your husband and he just wants to eat a cheeseburger and take a nap and you hate him for that. And she's like, well, so what? Shrug. I know. Like her dynamic with Patrick is that he's a brat and she's like his brat tamer. And then with art, it's he's a simp. And she's just like, yeah, do whatever I say. You can't. I mean, it just so toxic how it's just like he's he's like, you don't love your husband and she's like, well, you should kill yourself. And I was just like, whoa, legendary. But also really escalated. She took it. She took it to hell. She's like, which way go low? I'm going to the winter earth is like, you know, if you improve your game, be in the ground. I was like, whoa, it was wild. But she and then on the other end, like another moment with art that I kind of forgot about that I was like, oh my gosh, these three are so broken where she leaves to cheat on him, but also sort of be his manager in a way. In a like, she's sort of at work, sort of not when she's having sex with Josh O'Connor. But she comes back and he's just like sleeping next to their daughter in that. I don't know. That really got me this time. I'm like, oh, he just needs to feel loved. He does. I know. He just wants to be held tenderly until he falls asleep. And she does that. She like, pats him on the back for three minutes and she's like, so I have to go. How's sex with your roommate? She's like, you're not a pile of tennis balls. So I'm not really interested in. Boring. Holding you very much. Exactly. Yeah. I one thing I wanted to touch on that I do think that we do have because this movie is so hyper focused on the love triangle. And I do think we this is the love triangle we're used to saying to men and a woman, not to women and a man. But because this happens in the world of tennis, I just wanted to touch on a dazed article that came out around the release of this movie by Halima Jabril, that is specifically about women who are athletes and their bodies. The name of the piece as challengers missed an opportunity to spotlight female athletes bodies. So I just wanted to share a little bit from that. It is not a criticism of Zendaya. I think it's more criticism of the fact that because there is really just one woman athlete, we get to see and know in this movie. We lose an opportunity to explore a very common criticism of women in sports and also specifically black women in sports, which is the hyper fixation on their bodies historically. So, yeah, to share a piece of that while watching challengers, I wondered why Tashi's body didn't resemble other young tennis stars we know from real life from Coco Goff and Naomi Osaka to the young Serena and Venus Williams, all women who help shape the character of Tashi. These sports women have a more muscular and broader physique than Tashi challenging idealized notions about what women should look like. Even those in day as portrayal of Tashi is impressive. Challengers would have been more interesting visually and textually. If the object of art and Patrick's desires was a woman who stood in opposition to idealized femininity rather than conforms to it as so many women in sport do. From the racist ridicule that was always leveled against Serena Williams because of her dark skin and muscular body to the questioning of Olympic runner, Caster Semenya's gender because of all the high levels of testosterone in her body, all women, but especially black women athletes have constantly been bullied and seen as less desirable when their bodies and behavior go against traditional ideas of femininity. Challengers had the opportunity to confront our normative understanding of who and what is desirable in the same way the film presents an alternative and queer view of how relationships can work. So it is like in a movie that has three characters. It's not even like necessarily a criticism, but I did think it was like an interesting perspective to offer because women are constantly criticized for being too muscular. And that's where Love Lies Bleeding comes in, where a movie that came out the same year features a queer relationship with Kristen Stewart and Katie O'Brien. And Katie O'Brien is a, you know, like a weightlifter who looks like a weightlifter. Like a bodybuilder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. I thought it was an interesting piece. And we got to cover that movie. Yeah. Oh, I love that movie. That was also something I thought about in the back of my mind, because I'm like, I get why they picked Zendaya because that is like a star. And also Zendaya is not the kind of actor who you necessarily can make gain like a whole amount of muscle, even though I know she did gain some for this movie. And so it's one of those things. It's like it's like one of those caveats where like I wish they had more background people that did reflect that body type. You know, I think that that would have been like a nice balance to have more people or like get Coco Gough for a cameo or something like that. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Like I do think there was room for in a movie that is full of small moments that really stick with you, small moments with another woman athlete who doesn't look necessarily like Zendaya or like a Hollywood actor. Could have been cool. Yeah. Yeah. I think the closest thing we get is that scene where Tashi is playing at Stanford in a match with, I think, a student from Pepperdine or something like that. And the other student who I believe is a white woman is like laboriously running back and forth. And Tashi, by contrast, is pretty stationary, implying that like this is effortless for Tashi. She is like she is just crushing this woman and the other woman is like having to work so much harder. But that's kind of the only time we really see another woman play tennis in the movie and it's a thin white woman. So it's again, not doing anything to challenger. What what we're talking about. That said, it is cool and worth mentioning that Zendaya is a top line producer on this movie. I love when women are producing their own movies and have a say in how they are portrayed. I feel like you can really feel that in this movie because when we like referenced this earlier, there is a lot and I guess I can't put my finger on exactly why I'm not bothered by this. But like there is a lot of male gaze in this movie, but like not in the way that we're used to seeing it. It's maybe it's because it's like the simping male gaze and not be like violent male gaze. I don't know what it is, but because we do see things from Zendaya's perspective as well. Like, I mean, most iconically, the shot of her watching the boys making out. But like, I don't know. Yeah, the perspectives like the the camera work in this is so good and like horny and weird and thoughtful and a bunch of other words as well. Yeah, I think this is the balancing of the equal opportunity and also that Zendaya is a star that has the power to say no to nudity. Like if she did not want to have that, I don't because she's not. She's one of the few actresses who's never been naked in euphoria. So I think that it kind of makes you feel like she has power in it, kind of with like with poor things where it's like, is it a little gazey at times? For sure. But because we know Zendaya has power in the industry, we can at least know that if she felt uncomfortable, that she is someone who is empowered to be like, no, thank you. Totally. And yeah, then the fact that like the four producers credited on this movie are three women, Amy Pascal, Zendaya, Rachel O'Connor and and a queer man, Luce Lugo Guadagnino. Like, I don't know, you just do get the feeling that you are in good hands because the male gaze, I don't know, I think we've been so conditioned to see to say that seeing male gaze shots is inherently a bad thing because it more often than not has been in movies. But this is, I think, an outlier in that like it is, you know, not completely useless to see things from a male character's perspective. It's just nice to not feel attacked by it. Yeah. And that everyone is getting a little bit of it because it's like we see we see like a little hint of Pina and we're never seeing anything more from her. That we don't see from another man. Right. I mean, I would argue that there are shots of the two men that are more sexualized than anything that we see of Tashi, especially in the final sequence when Patrick and Art are getting closer and closer together. They're dripping sweat. They're like we get kind of isolated shots of like their thighs and their arms and shoulders and the muscles just pulsating and glistening. And to me, that feels way more sexualized than anything that we see of Tashi's body. And I think you could still argue that that is a male gaze because I think to me, that's them looking at each other. That's not Tashi. Tashi is like thinking about tennis balls. Like she's like the dog. She's like, ah, finally. Yeah. Yeah, so true. Yeah. I think that's what makes the whole movie so refreshing. And what makes it truly erotic is that it's erotic for everyone. If it's only erotic for like one participant, like again, all those tips need to touch. Yes. Yes. All tips of the triangle. I was like, wow, what a bar. They need to fold in on each other and touch. Exactly. Can we talk about the marketing of this movie, which is also something that you bring up in your video essay princess? But the fact that there were, there was at least one trailer that positioned Tashi as the femme fatale, the villain, the vindictive homewrecker and Nelly Furtado's man-eater is playing. And what a bop of a song. But then you watch the movie and you realize, oh, that's, that's not what's happening. Maybe there are traces of it kind of, but she's a far more complicated character than that. And I think it's just that with marketing for movies, they have to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible. And this is kind of a hard movie to market, if we're being honest. So they have to figure out, OK, what's the hook? How are we going to sell this? Because what we have in Tashi is simply a confident and dominant woman. But that's scary to people. Absolutely. People don't want to watch a movie about that. So how do we take the footage we have from the movie and put a spin on it so that it's more sellable and more marketable? Oh, we'll make her a vindictive, manipulative woman. Yeah, I think it's interesting, like both times, the first time I watched a movie, I thought that she would be in it more because of how heavily she is like the face of this movie. Yeah. And I think it's surprising how much it is about the boys because of that, which is not to say that she's not an important character. Like you don't have to be in every single shot to be important because she's definitely like haunting the narrative, so to speak. But it definitely like surprised me that like they're the ones who chase after her. Like in a lot of the sequences, like she's responding to like, like, you know, they're serving the ball and she's just serving it back at them, but at her own speed. And I think it sometimes, and I think also because of the way that, you know, fandoms will make the female character, the bad guy inherently, it's possible to really flatten all of Tashi's nuance in the narrative by just being like, well, she's in the way of these two men. It's like, no, those two men are in the way of themselves. Yeah. Everyone is like in the way and sometimes the world is in the way. Yeah. It's society. They live in a society. They live in a society. And I think like that is what's interesting about like, yeah, it's the manager SNM. Well, SNM is a little bit later, but the manager thing is definitely very funny because I don't think she's a manager. I just think that she's like hot and confident and they're overwhelmed by it. Right. It's like, I don't, I mean, we are led to believe that she and her adult life has had sex with two people and it's the two guys in this movie. Right. I don't think she's a man. Eat her necessarily. And if she is a man eater, she's eating a man who wants to be eaten. Yeah. She's on a diet. It's very low carb. Yeah. Cause it's like it's, it's, it's just these two boys. Yeah. I think another great Tashi and art moment where you're just like, oh God, art, art, art buddy where he's like, he's trying to take a stand. And I, and I mean trying. He's trying to take a stand. And he's like, I'm quitting tennis. I'm sleepy. I don't like it anymore. And then, but well, and then she's like, okay, fine. And then he's, he like tries to walk away from the conversation. He's like, but what do you think? Is it okay? Are you mad? Do you love me? And like he, oh yeah, buddy. I do think, and it's like in that way, I am kind of glad that, um, again, it feels like equal across the, the, the three of their backgrounds. We know enough to know, you know, at least have an idea of why they are reacting to each other the way that they are, but we don't get a deep look into like, what are their relationships with their parents? What, I mean, I think we know the most about Tashi because we see a fair amount of her mom. And it seems very loving and caring, mutually respectful. It seems like a good relationship. Um, but, but that like, I don't know, like you can kind of like project onto these three characters in any sort of way, because you're not given too much information about them. And I think that that is something that is maybe a like peak TV overcorrection that sometimes, um, and I think that like, I've been guilty of this of like wanting to know more than a movie is telling me, um, because I think we're so used to having things over explained to us now in a lot of movies where there could be an entire side movie about one character you saw for one second in one movie 10 years ago. And, you know, like this movie is not over explaining itself to you in a way that I think it helps and like is, is makes it better. Yeah. Yeah. Does anyone have anything else they want to talk about? I just, I just love the soundtrack as well. I didn't know that was the one last thing I want to say. It's like, this is like the way it goes. Like, like every time the sound stops and then picks up again, it's like electrifying. It's like, yes, I just, the fact that this didn't get nominated for best score blast for me. Like that is just like a crime, a literal crime. Like what were you guys doing? Were you wanting drugs at the time? Please share with the clouds. And that's the one thing I will say. I'm like, I have no idea how they could have ignored that aspect of anything about this film. It's so bizarre. Yeah. How many, yeah, how many soundtracks end up on like people's regular rotation? And the challenger soundtrack has definitely remained in mind. And I think I'm very much not alone. Yeah. It's like, it's, it's to me, it's like this year, the soundtrack that I'm like a God didn't get any nominations is like the Testament of Anne Lee. And a couple of years ago, it was, it's so God, I am like the biggest evangelical of that movie. I'm like, mother Anne is too long. But I, but I, it has an amazing soundtrack. And I think so does the challengers. I'm like, these are like such great, great stories. We should start our own awards. Exactly. We'll get it right. Yeah. Obviously. Bechtel's has wise this does pass a couple of times. Obviously there is one woman who is central to the narrative, but she talks to her daughter. She talks to her mom. She talks to her daughter about into the spider verse. A fun little zit nod to Zendaya's career. Also her Spider-Man background. Wow. Her husband does spider things, I guess. I've heard of her husband. He does spider things. Right. He seems nice. Mr. Zendaya. Mr. Zendaya. Yeah. Well, there's that line in this movie where Patrick is like, I'm not some lap dog who's going to sit around and let you punish me. I'm not art, but maybe you need someone like that. Maybe you want someone who's going to be Mr. Toshi Duncan. And that it seems like that is exactly what Toshi wants. Yeah. That is actually exactly what she wants. And I know just the man for the job. And she is Zendaya and she has Mr. Zendaya. And so I think that's how she lives her regular life too. I don't know. Thank God. Who knows? We don't know and it's none of our business and I love that. Yeah. But yeah, she talks to her daughter. She talks to her mother, talks to her mom mostly about child care stuff. So yeah, these, these interactions pass the Bechtel test. There is one other woman in the movie that we haven't chatted out, but deserved better. And that's Helen, the woman who art goes out of date with who is not treated well. And I just wanted to shout her out as a woman who I hope wherever she is in this fictional world, I hope she is well. And I hope she found someone who could listen to her finish a sentence. Yeah. And doesn't surprise kiss her, which like, okay, Patrick is a complete dirt bag. He probably is the type of man who would surprise kiss a woman. But also I'm like, I don't know. We did, did we need to see that in the movie? Couldn't we have seen him asking for consent? He can still be a dirt bag about it. But yeah, I feel like that is almost like used as a tool to contrast him in art in a way that almost wasn't necessary because art is like Mr. Consent. He like in the Applebee's parking lot, he's like, so I really want to kiss you, but I'm afraid that you'll have a feeling and you're like, he's like Mr. Consent. That's kind of, he's, he's, he's hot for consent. Yeah. Yeah. His whole, and that is like, again, just like, sorry to like start another conversation, but like it's just so thoughtfully like written and performed where that is always who art is. Like from the moment he meets Tashi, he's always the one that's like, I really admire your game, Tashi. You're very, you're a very, like he even says to Patrick when Tashi is not even there. He's like, come on, Patrick. She's a very remarkable young woman. And you're like, I know art. Kind of love him. It's where those things were like, I hate it. But I was like, that makes me so dry that he just said that like, unironically. Like I was just like, no. He was alone with his boy and said she is a remarkable young woman. And I'm like, I, you gotta love art. You gotta love art. At least he didn't call her articulate. That would have really fucked me up. But yeah. What about our nipple scale though? Our scale where we rate the movie based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, zero to five nipples. I think because this is a movie that showcases a woman who is, I think, very complicated, very interesting, who is allowed to be confident and dominant and sure, does she mistreat some people along the way? Yeah. I'm not saying that she's necessarily like someone to aspire to be, but also I do aspire to achieve the level of dominance that she has over men. I think I kind of struggled with the Tashi character the first time I saw the movie, but when I rewatched it and sort of like framed her character through that lens, I was like, wait a minute, she's, she's cooking. She's onto something. I think I want to give this movie like, I don't know. I don't know. Is it three nipples? Is it four nipples? Is it less? Is it more? This is a, this is a challenging one to rate. I'm going for. I'm going for two. Yeah. Okay. Me too. Yeah. I think I would give it four nipples and I'm only taking a nipple off because she's the only woman of color. And I think that like, besides her own child, and I would have just liked for her to have like another relationship to like one other person of color that's not related to her. Yeah. Yeah. So because of that, it gets four from an intersectional lens, but I do think like it's so refreshing to watch a female character who's just behaving badly. Like Harper from industry watches challengers and just like, this is my inspo, like I really love Tashi Duncan as a character. And I think it's probably my favorites and they are performance thus far because she really shows that she is a movie star, but also has it in her to be like this really complicated character actress. For sure. I'm going to go for as well. I think for the same reasons, I think that there was definitely room for a relationship with Tashi and another woman, specifically a woman in tennis. That would have been interesting. But I don't know. I mean, it's like she is such an incredible character. I feel like challengers is going to be thought of as a classic in the future. And it's just, I don't know. I love seeing Zendaya like sort of, I feel like this was her real like, I don't know, like straddling. She does technically play a teenager in this movie, but she's also like, but what you really want me to see is play a woman who is my current age. And I just know that she's going to do so much amazing stuff. It weirdly reminds me a little bit and maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to bring up one of my favorite movies, but it reminds me a little bit of I Tanya, which is I think like Margot Robbie's comparable moment of like, I am producing my own movies now. I'm playing the character you've seen me play before. And I'm doing this other thing you've never seen me do. And I just think that like, we'll keep seeing that from her. And yeah, it's it's it's a great movie. Thank you, Potion Master. Thank you, Luca. Well, Princess, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Obviously, you're welcome back any time. Whatever you want. You bring you bring a very different movie to the table every time. I know how eclectic. I'm like, next we're going to do Barry Lyndon. For the boys. We got we got to do something for the boys. I still haven't seen it. I know Candle's question mark. That's what I know that Barry Lyndon. I saw it in theaters with a friend, with a group of friends in Houston, and it had the intermission in the middle. Perfect way to see a movie. But yeah, call me for any of your Kubrickian needs. I can I'm there for you guys as emotional support. How incredible. Where can people follow you? Check out your work. Plug away. Yay. Thank you guys so much. I love being on here. You guys can find me on YouTube, Princess Weeks. I just had a recent video out about Weathering Heights. I have a video coming out by the time this is out about the tragic mulatto, which is really interesting and very academic. And I am there and I'm on Blue Sky. Also, Princess M Weeks with one S for Princess, because I spelled my name wrong, but I thought it gave it character. So I kept it. Incredible. And yeah, I'm just so happy to talk. I just miss talking to you guys. So I'm just happy to do that all day long. That's why we pod that is so nice to see you. It's nice to hear your voice. And yeah, I don't know. I feel like I see you all the time because I have my notifications on for your channel. That's how I feel when I hear your voice. Of course, I subscribe to the matron as everyone should. That's all good financially forward women should do. And so sometimes I'm going to bed and I'm just listening to you guys. I'm just like, that's so right. Exactly. 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And with that, shall we shall we hit the tennis courts and and have sex with tennis, just like Tashi does? Come on. Yes. Bye. Bye. Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of I Heart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus and me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichterman and edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me and our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh, my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski, iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash bechtel cast. What a scream. We installed telephone wires across rural Britain over a century ago, and you're still paying to use them for your broadband today. If it ain't broke, what? Stop. Your days of selling phone age broadband are over. Blast off. Spill the beans. 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