Sonia Kahlon: From High-Functioning Drinking to Sobriety

When I found out he was cheating, I sent him one text. Very nice text. Didn't mention the cheating. Just said, I'm not sure what to do here. I'm always here for you, blah, blah, blah. Gave him a couple of weeks, didn't respond, and I filed for divorce. I never heard from him again. If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call 1-Call Placement. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. 1-Call Placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment, Wellness, and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers. Today, on We're Out of Time, I'm joined by Sonia Collin, co-host of the podcast Sisters in Sobriety. Sonia is part of a growing movement, especially among women, who are rethinking their relationship with alcohol and choosing sobriety for better mental health, clarity, and connection. Through her podcast and community, she's created a space where women can talk openly about drinking culture, recovery, and the pressures that often push people toward alcohol in the first place. Sonia, welcome. Hi, Richard. Thanks for having me. Of course. For people who may not know your story yet, what led you personally to reevaluate your relationship with alcohol? Yeah, I think my story isn't that unique in the sense that I started drinking when I was in my early teens and really chalked it up as normal all through college. And, you know, kind of, I had like the little extra few consequences, like, oh, I'm getting my stomach pumped at the hospital after partying all night, but still kind of was in the realm of normal. And then when I, and then I went to dental school, I became a dentist, I did my residency, and all through that I became an orthodontist, and I was steadily starting to drink with more frequency. And then when I was finally done with school, I was like 30, I really, I started to drink every night. And so I would come home from work and I would open a bottle of wine. And again, like really was able to chalk it up as pretty normal. And like I had a really high pressure career. We were, we had started our own practice and I had like, by the time I quit drinking and I sold my business, we had eight practices. And so I really was in this work hard, play hard, sort of life. And I, you know, this hustle culture and making money. And I don't have time to, you know, meditate, and I don't have time to do all these other, I have no other coping mechanisms. And so I would come home, I would work like 14, 15 hours, come home and just drink until I passed out every night. And I knew there was like this idea in my head, my brother had gone to AA a few years before I quit. And I, you know, when, you know, when someone else does it, you just kind of know, you're like, oh, shit, like my days are numbered. But I had no way out. I thought, you know, this is my life, like I worked so hard, super successful, I'm not going to admit I have a problem. And then I got so, so lucky. It was like life changing. I'm sure what happened to you was life changing. So when I got an offer from a private equity company to sell my practice and the minute those conversations started, I knew I had to change something because I had never not been in school or not worked an obscene amount. And so I thought, what the hell am I going to do? The, the agreement when we sold was to stay on and work for two years to help with the transition. And I thought that's like a nine to five job. I've never had a nine to right. Yeah. And I thought I'm going to start drinking at five. And because like before I could like push my drinking to like seven, eight o'clock. And then I thought, and then what am I, I'm just going to start, I'm just, you know, and then when those two years are up, I'm just going to start drinking earlier and earlier and earlier. And so, and that did happen. So we sold the practice. And all of a sudden, yeah, I have no ownership, like interest in the company. And I'm just sort of drinking earlier and earlier. And it wasn't really, it wasn't a rock bottom. It wasn't a DUI. It wasn't anything like that. It was just like the sick and tired of being sick and tired. And so I had like a particularly bad hangover. And I went out to dinner, went out to lunch with a friend of mine. And I just remember that the waiter saying, you know, would you like mimosa? And I thought, no, for the first time ever in my life, I would not like a mimosa. And so I said no to that drink. And then I, because I also kind of like started to think, okay, if I have the mimosa, I'll feel better than I have to keep drinking all day. And I had done that, right? I'll just keep drinking for the rest of the day. Wait, wait, wait, you said you have to keep drinking all day. Did you have the DT's? Did you shake when you stopped drinking? I didn't. I would say I had really severe anxiety, but I would say the physical symptoms were pretty minimal. So maybe I was shaky, but didn't have the shakes. Like I wouldn't drop something, for example. I was really lucky. And my brother too had been actually probably had gotten like a step or two past me with his drinking. Didn't have the shakes either. So genetically, I don't know, they're coming out with a lot of interesting thing about South Asians genetically right now. So maybe one of that's one of them. So yeah, I just, I went home that night and I, after lunch with my friend and I didn't drink, and I would think it was the first time I hadn't, I had gone a day without drinking in maybe a decade. And I woke up the next morning and like, all right, we're doing it. I'm doing it. Doing one more. Let's do one more day. And it was the first, I remember very clearly, Mondays were always the day I would wake up and say, I'm not going to drink today. And then I would, you know, drive by the liquor store on the way home and pick up alcohol. And when I got through that Monday, I thought, okay, I got something here. I got something. I got two days. And that was, I can't even tell you what it felt like two days was. And so that's whenever anyone tells me they've gone a day. I'm like, you did the hardest part. Like, I'm sorry, I did two days. And then I just strung together, why white knuckled for a while. And I strung together some days and I strung together some sobriety. And then I, I finally told my brother after a few weeks. And of course, he wanted me to go to AA. And I said, no, it's not for me. What if there's, what if my patients are at the meeting, say eight offices, right? In around Philly. And so I'm like, where can I go to an AA meeting? Like, where are they going to see Dr. Cowan at their AA meeting and then call their, you know, report me to like, you know, the dental board. And so, yeah, so that was my story about getting sober. Isn't that funny that every alcoholic, everyone that I've ever spoken to at the very beginning says, I'm embarrassed to go. What if somebody sees me? And it's like, dude, if they see, they have the same shit going on there, they'll be happy to see you. Unbelievable. That's like, I remember one time that I started advertising on Grindr and everybody was like, you can't do that. We're going to get a bad reputation. And I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, this is not okay. It's like, I'm like, what do you mean it's not okay? I'm like, they're like, well, somebody's going to see it. I go, the only people who are going to see it are the people who are on it. And those are the people we want to help. Unbelievable. Same thing. I do think there is a particular stigma. I'm sure you've treated a lot of professionals with professional licenses. And there is this stigma to it, to that and to any mental health thing, because every two years I renew my dental license. And there's a question, there's questions about, have you sought treatment for mental health? Have you sought treatment for addiction? Have you abused drugs or alcohol in the last two years? And if you answer yes, you have to provide some sort of explanation. And none of us answer yes, because none of us want to know what the consequences are of saying yes and providing explanation. None of you say yes, because we're alcoholics and we lie every time we open our mouth. Okay. So I mean, if you're going to lie to keep up the secret life that you've got, you're not going to answer yes on the questionnaire. Right? I mean, it just doesn't work. The name Sisters in Sobriety really suggests community. Why is that sense of connection so important in recovery? And where the hell is your sister? Oh, my sister. So my brother is a fantastic alcoholic, really just like a world-class alcoholic. He gets married, he gets sober, he gets divorced, does it again? Like he, you know, and so the second time he did it was with my sister in sobriety, Kathleen. And so he married Kathleen when he was sober. They stayed together like seven years. He stayed sober. And like within weeks of them, breaking up, he relapsed pretty badly and had a DUI and lost custody of his kids. And so it was really then, I had been really quiet about my sobriety like for years. So I sold my business, I got sober, I was like very quietly stayed sober. Didn't have any community. I was married at the time. I'd been like with my ex for, you know, almost 18 years by the time we broke up. And he was very sensitive to me labeling myself as anything or an alcoholic. So anytime we'd be out to dinner and I didn't order a glass of wine, for example, he'd say, oh, Sonya doesn't drink. He didn't want me to say, oh, I'm sober. He really just even hated the term sober. So it was when, you know, my brother was going through that relapse that my ex-sister-in-law now Kathleen and I got really close and we started talking a lot about sobriety. And she also at some point got sober from cocaine before she met my brother. And so as we're going through this, I'm like, there's something here, like there are things we don't talk about, right? Especially as women, there's things we're not talking about. And then I went through my own divorce a couple of years later and had a really hard time staying sober, like really hard. It was like, what the hell is the point now, right? And again, like leaned on her a lot. And I remember I was starting to date with like just like disastrous results, just disastrous, like literally like serial killers, like level, like of guys that I was going on dates with. And I remember after one of these particular serial killers, Kathleen said, like, you're so lucky you're alive. Like that guy has body parts in his freezer, you know. And I remember again, like wanting to drink and being like, I can't believe something to be alone for the rest of my life. And then I called her and I said, we start a podcast, like there, nobody talks about this stuff. Like we talk a lot about like, I call it like drunk porn. I do a lot of work in prisons. And one thing you don't do in prison. Yeah, yeah. I'm interested in that. Tell me about drunk porn. Okay, so like, okay, so I do a lot of work in prisons. And one thing you don't do is you don't ask somebody what they're in for. Okay, like you just don't you don't like, you know, you're not like, Hey, what are you in for? And then, you know, you get this like gory sort of like salacious story. And so I think there's like trauma porn, I've met trauma porn guys who are kind of like, what's your trauma, you know, your dad beach up kind of, you know, that kind of they want the story. Got it. And I think that a lot of a lot of like, I wouldn't even say podcast, a lot of like, AA, I find I love AA, I'm not in AA, but it's a lot of drunk porn, right? It's just like you go and these guys have been sober. I'm gonna say like these guys, just like lumping them all together to be this like 85 year old white guy smoking a cigarette telling you about this like his worst this is fun. He got drunk. And so this is new. They're that these really I wouldn't say they're depressing stories, but I'm not sometimes sure what the point is of rehashing the worst parts of the worst stories. A lot of women today describe themselves as sober curious. What does that term actually mean? Because I can't stand it. Yeah, I look at it like, call yourself whatever you want, as long as you are drinking less kind of thing or drinking in a healthy way, right? So it doesn't really, like alcoholic doesn't bother me, substance use disorder doesn't like someone with substance use disorder doesn't none of it bothers me addict doesn't bother me sober curious doesn't bother me none of it really does I mean I have some questions about being cally sober that I've been trying to get answered but ask them really do it I've tried in or are you cally sober would you describe yourself that way? I'm not sober at all. I know but would you okay so I was just on your podcast. No, I'm not sober. Do you smoke weed or do psychedelics? What do you smoke weed or do psychedelics? I have wine. I like wine. Okay, that's that's just you know, I don't like hard booze. I and I don't drink unless I'm at a fine restaurant with a salmoneye. Okay, yeah, because you know, I had 20 years where I didn't do that. I was like, oh, that would have been nice. I missed that boat. Okay, but yeah, that's how I do it. So sober sober cally sober though is not sober. Okay, you're not you're not sober if you're smoking pot now that's not the worst thing in the world. Some people have to smoke pot. Okay. Some people do it under the advice of a doctor. Okay, because certain psych meds don't work for everybody. Okay, and that this is the best they can come up with. I don't make anybody wrong. What I want is I want everybody to live their best lives. And if you can do that, you know, drinking or using every once in a while socially, I have zero problem with that unless you're creating wreckage. That's the key. If you're not if you're creating wreckage, or you're not reaching the goals and milestones in life that you want to reach and you trace that back honestly, you have to be self self on it. You have to be rigorously honest about this and you check back and you say, am I not getting this done because I've been smoking pot or drinking or doing whatever. Okay, you got to be honest with yourself and if that's true, that's the wreckage. The wreckage is not I ended up in jails, institutions and death. The wreckage is I'm not who I was always meant to be. Okay, and that's painful. Okay, it's only painful when you stop drinking and you think about it and then it's heartbreaking. I agree. I think it's if you're not able to become that version of yourself, then that's the issue. I think that sober curiosity isn't necessarily for me. Right? Like I think that for me for the foreseeable future, I think abstinence is working for me. But I think that that there are people that kind of fit that the sober curious profile where they're like, how I'm drinking more than I want to I don't like how it makes me feel. They're not like I was, which is like absolute shit show like drinking every night that like, yeah, I was curious about sobriety too, but not curious enough to stop drinking. And so yeah. So in that arc that you're talking about, right? That's that's called the contemplation stage. That's what sober curiosity is. It's called the first stage is like pre contemplation. I don't even have a problem. I'm not even going to contemplate that. I've got this is complete denial. And then the contemplation stage, which comes after that, and this is how human beings change their behaviors. Okay. That's, huh, is this a problem? Maybe I should figure something out. Maybe I shouldn't do that sober curious. But what happens when we take that contemplation phase though? So now we've taken sober curious and we made it into a movement, right? So I think it's a moderation, not even moderation movement. It's a movement of like, Oh, I can go a few weeks without drinking. And then I'm going to mindfully drink and then I can go. Yeah, this is all just this is all just the same road to sobriety. Because you think you're if you're sure because if you're sober curious, you're creating wreckage, you're not happy, you know, right. And so what are you going to do? I can drink. I'll drink once a week. Well, then, you know, you're still got problems. And, you know, you try to do that. And then you try to go to AA and then you try to do this and try to do that and you start working pretty soon for five years has gone by. Okay. And you could have gone to treatment. Okay, you could have been a goddamn doctor by then. That's what I wonder. I wonder if it would have been better for like, I do wonder this if someone gave me sober curious as an option, right? Like you can still drink you don't have to go all the way because I think that kept me from quitting was that oh, what, like I can never drink again. But I think I would have failed at being sober curious and I maybe would have like, around with it for like a couple of years. Matt tried not to drink, I just couldn't do it. So yeah, but I do feel like there have to be alternatives, right? And that was another point of us starting the podcast, there have to be alternatives to AA. And so when most people think about, you know, not being happy with their alcohol use, they like I did think well, the only other option is AA. So I think it's, it's nice to have options and movements that are different. Absolutely. Because everybody needs something different. And I like, and I like that titration model for people that are not willing to give it up in one go. And the reason I like that is because it gets them to where they need to be eventually, right? And, you know, you never want to be in a state of learned helplessness, where you get to the point where you're like, what's the use? And you give up because that's over. Then, then by the time you get somebody there and they're in that state long enough, it's very hard to dig them out of that hole. I think it's also really good for good branding. Like I think that that has shifted the culture, the sober curious that I think that's why we have so many alcohol free drinks and like NA beers and like that type of thing. I think it's the sober curious. I don't think I don't, I'm not sure if they made NA beer for alcoholics or addicts. I think they made it for people who were like, well, I feel like going out to watch football, but I don't feel like getting trashed every Sunday, but I still feel like I want to be a part of it. I like the healthy, I like the healthier aspects of this movement for sure. Anything that will get people off drugs and alcohol or moderate it to the point where they can have their best life, I'm on board with that. All right. Drinking culture has become so normalized. Wine nights, mommy juice, social drinking everywhere. Why do you think alcohol is so embedded in modern culture, especially for women? I think this goes back to again, like why we started the podcast, it's coping mechanisms too. Right. And so I think that for, for me, it was like successful women. That's sort of like what you do, right? And even when you're mentioning like, yeah, I lived in New York and you're going to like Michelin star restaurants and they're pairing wine. And I wasn't having like a half a glass of wine, like you were having, I was having like 15 glasses of wine with a 15 horse meal. But I think it's just really embedded into like how we socialize, how we cope when I was going through my divorce. I wasn't very until then, people knew I didn't drink, but they didn't really know why. And so my friends that didn't know why were like, come over, honey, let's have a bottle of wine and we can just talk shit about your ex. And so I think that that's sort of how we cope and how we socialize as, I mean, I think as women, but I think men do it too. They just do it like, you know, they just like drink beer to football game. But I think it's just a way I just wasn't ever, when I think about it, like, yeah, wasn't ever comfortable being myself, right. And so it was so much easier to drink and be someone else. And so during the divorce, it was like, yeah, you think I don't want to sit around and drink like four bottles of red wine and talk shit about my ex too, you know. So I don't want to go work out. I don't want to meditate on it. Like I want to light the house on fire, you know, and so that it was that moment that made me realize I had already been sober for five years when we broke up, but I hadn't really like sat there and thought about the coping mechanisms. And also those five years were easy. I had sold my business. I didn't have like a lot of the normal stressors. And so I didn't need that level of coping. And so it was when I was sort of confronted with it, it was like, oh, I can't drink over this like this is. And also it was yeah, it was it's part of our culture like to, you know, like, let's just sit around. I mean, if you're going to drink over anything, you're going to drink about me over your husband sleeping with your friend, you know, your husband sleep to sleep with your friend. Sure did. Yeah. Oh, sorry. We got to leave with that next time. Okay, tell me about that. Did you catch him in the bed? Did you catch him? Hold on. No. Did you catch them in your bed? No, I did not. And so last drink I had, we were out with our friends. And we read a BYO and we drank like crazy. I had this crazy hangover. Turns out that is who he slept with was that friend that that I had my last drink with. And she was like a really big part of your and I think that look, I hate to say it that like sobriety changes, it changes some relationships for not for the worse, but my marriage changed when I got sober. I thought it would change for the better, right? Because I'm not trashed and blacked out all the time. But he wanted someone to party with. And so, you know, he didn't have to look that far because she was like right over there. And she was your best girlfriend? No, no, no, not best friend. I didn't even like her that much. We were like, we were friends and like mostly couple friends. She was also a dentist. So we had like a lot of like. Dentists are such whores. Such bitches, just hoes. What just hoes? Tell me about that. No, no, no, no. How did you find out about the cheating? So he, what now we, we, my family thinks like my sister-in-laws are like he faked a mental health crisis. He was like, I have so much anxiety. I lost all this money in crypto. I don't know what's going on. Okay. So he's like, I need to get some space. So he says he's going to go help these friends of ours in Philly with their dental practice. And then he just leaves and he doesn't come back. And we were fine. Like we were fine like the night before we were fine. And my sister-in-laws are like, you need to come home to Toronto. So I go back to Toronto. I'll just go back home for a week. And they're like, you need to figure out what's going on. And so I look at like our DoorDash and Uber accounts and like credit cards and like Verizon bill. And it was like, this idiot didn't even try to hide it. Right. It was so obvious that that's so disrespectful. That's so disrespectful. At least try to hide it. At least have enough self-respect for your wife to try to hide it. In his defense, I think that he was like, we had like in a sense for, I don't know how this had happened to me considering like I like was successful and like we went, you know, we had the same level of education. But for some reason he had access like he ran all of our accounts. So I never logged into the credit card. I never logged into our phone bill. I, you know, once I would order like Uber Eats, but I wasn't like looking at old orders. And so I think he thought she's not going to look. She never looked before. She probably doesn't even know how to log into like the American Express account. But I did. I figured it out. And when I did, it was like ugly. It was ugly. And what happened? What did you do? Do you confront them? So this is interesting. So he had basically this is, it's the craziest story. My therapist will tell you too. Like this isn't a normal story. Like, and the lawyer said the same thing. He disappeared. So he, we were as in like, wait, wait, wait, time out, time out, time out. Do you guys have kids? No, thank God. Thank God. Okay. Thank God. We have two little dogs and, you know, and an investment account. And so I, he, so he says, I'm going to go help these friends. I'm having this mental health thing. So I'm like looking, finding him like psychiatrist, like coaches. So he didn't handle, I don't know how you handled the sale of your business, but his identity was wrapped up in us and our like success, right? And so being an entrepreneur and building this huge practice and selling it. And then, you know, I think when we sold, and also we had been used to this certain level of busyness. And so without that, his identity just started to crumble. And at the same time that I got sober, he said, okay, I'll stop smoking weed. And he smoked a lot of weed. And so I think that that this is the difference between doing the work and not doing the work, I kind of feel like you can stop drinking, you can stop smoking weed, you can stop doing drugs. But unless you do the work behind it and figure out who you really are, I think you're going to, you know, destroy your life. Like basically just like leave destruction wherever you go. And so that is basically what he did. And so he's still sleeping with the dentist? I don't know. Okay. So what I did was I said, I had been trying to text him, right? For the, he had been gone a few weeks, had been trying to text him. Where is he been gone a few weeks and never called? Called maybe a couple of times at the beginning. Okay, I was smoking crack in a room full of hookers. That's what this guy was doing. Yes. Yes. So then I was like, this is like, it was shocking. Like after 18 years, I'd not even got a day ever without even talking to him. So slowly stopped responding to text slowly, slowly, slowly. When I found out he was cheating, I sent him one text, very nice text, didn't mention the cheating just said, I'm not sure what to do here. Like I love you very much. If you won't, you know, even let me in or respond to my texts or even I'm not sure like what I can do. I'm always here for you, blah, blah, blah, gave him a couple of weeks, didn't respond. And I filed for divorce. I never heard from him again. Ever. Ever. Shut up. Never heard from him again. So then the share of shows up at my, I live in this tiny town in Pennsylvania and the sheriff shows up and like, I'm Indian, right? I know y'all can't see, but like, when the sheriff shows up, you're the only non white person in the town, you're like, shit. Like, so the sheriff says, you know, we found your car abandoned in New Jersey in Camden, New Jersey. And I was like, my car's in the garage. And this like six months after we had separated. And they like, you know, said, Oh, it's like this car. And I was like, that's the car he has. And so he had like just left his car in a know if this guy's alive. Yeah, I think he's alive because he signed the divorce papers a couple of months after that. So he's alive. Well, that was years ago. But that was years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know anything. Even came back for the dog. Never came back. Our dogs were, yeah, they both have passed now. They were 16 when they passed. Yeah, he never came back for anything. I had like, I moved his stuff into the garage and his mom came with movers to move. What did she think? What did she say about this? She I wasn't here when they came. They asked that. No, no, no, no, no, are you, is she like, Oh, well, he's my baby boy or is she like, he's an idiot? No, he's my baby boy. Okay, well, now we know why he's the way he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about the dad? The dad same thing. I've heard that I heard the dad said something to someone that know that I know that was like, they're really upset with him. Like he's really upset with him. He can't believe he just well, how could they not be upset with him? You're a dentist. You're an elegant woman. You're you're nurturing and kind to him. And I can tell that you were a good wife and you loved him. I can tell that. Okay. Um, you guys just didn't transition well from the business. And that's not uncommon. I didn't transition well either. I was scared to death of the money. Yes, yes, I was. So the difference was I was scared. I still remain scared of it. Right. He loved it. This dude wanted a chopper to the Hamptons. He wants to like, do you know what I mean? Like we reacted to it very differently and neither of us in a super healthy way. So I was terrified of it. Still am to some extent. And he was like, Oh, maybe this can be my new identity. Okay. So his thing was I want to buy a bunch of shit. Yeah. Okay. And your thing was, I don't know what to make of this right now. This is a little scary. I've never been here before. I want to take my time to level up here. Yes. And I'm getting sober and all these new feelings are coming up. And all of a sudden I want to be around like my, my young nieces who I didn't want to be around when I was drunk. They weren't fun. Um, and so yeah, I was changing a lot, a lot. And so I will do you 47. Yeah. Yeah. When did you sell your business? In, um, in 2018, I was 52 when I did it. So what was the transition like? It was, it was what was like hell. Okay. Um, I was afraid of the money. Um, I, the wire hit on a Friday. So you might two 30. Yeah. In the afternoon. Okay. And I was, I was in shock. I'm like looking at it and I'm like, I couldn't speak. You have to understand in the last year that you're selling your business, you feel like you just gave birth to an accountant. Right? No, I know. I know. Yeah. Yeah. It's the hardest thing in the world. It's like, it was violating. It's a violating experience. It's all violating. It's completely violating. That's an excellent way to describe it. It was, it was a violent. Yeah. I remember that feeling of just like, Oh, it sucks. And with all of that, it was just too much. You know, I was, I remember on Monday I'm getting up to go to work and my friend Meredith looks at me and she's like, where are you going? I'm like, I'm going to the office. She's like, baby, sit down. Meredith sounds like more than a friend. She goes, you don't have an office. Yeah. You don't have an office. Sit down. And I went and I was like really upset. To me, it was the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. I think that, and this has a lot to do with my drinking and all that, but I don't think I ever really wanted to be an orthodontist. I think that I'm Indian. Well, you have Indian parents. And so they probably beat you with a ruler and became a doctor. Yeah. Yeah. More than a ruler. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that for me, it was finally like a freedom of like, what do you want to do? Like you never had a choice. Like I can't even remember a time that it wasn't like you're going to be a pharmacist, a dentist or a doctor. And so it was like, to me, it was like the world opened up. And when the wire hit, it was like one of the most, even thinking about it makes me emotional. And even now, I live a pretty normal life. And so I haven't changed much since then. I live in the same house, like I'm the same car. But it is still the best thing that ever happened to me. I got sober, right? Because of it. And so yeah, but I do understand what you're saying. So for me, when it was like Monday morning, and it's like time to go to the office, I was like, no way. And I still wake up Monday mornings and I'm like, yeah, I don't have to go to the office. There is no one happier than me to not have to go to an office. I have too much time on my head. You have the number one mental health podcast and a new treatment center. I know. I know. But I got, but I got the best people in the world that work with me. So trust me when I tell you, look, I didn't have to staff the place. Yeah. I called my old place and I said, I'm sorry for the late notice, but everyone comes home today and everyone's like, we're doing it again. I'm like, yeah, we are. And so 10 people gave their notice in an hour to come here. So when I read the article about you before I read the whole thing, I knew exactly. I was like, oh, he had a five year non-compete. I had a five year non-compete and I was sober five years. I got sober right when we sold and my marriage ended around the five year mark because I didn't want to do it again also. That was another thing. He was ready at the end of the five years to like do the whole thing again, just do another business, do all the offices again, basically dot them around the same areas and do the whole thing again. And I was like, no, I'm not doing that shit again. Right. It almost killed me the first time. It's hard to get started again. And the part that you tell me if this is the same for you, it made me soft. It made me soft. I'm so soft. My resiliency wasn't good. My just, you know, I was just, it was just weak. I like people so much more now. Like, I can't be mean. I can't run a business the way I used to run a, I was a bitch. So was I. And I can't, I cannot, I love my, I still don't know why 31 people left, you know, one of the finest places in the world and came to do this with me. I think my people would come too. And I, look, what was your excuse? I wasn't sober. So that's why I was a bitch. I hadn't done any work yet. Right. Like I was like, raw, ambitious, money hungry, like non empathetic, hadn't worked on my own shit at all. And so I was a beast at work. I, I wonder why you were. Well, because I'm a perfectionist. And, and I never had a win. I've, before this one, I never had a big win. Now, you know, and so I'd always struggled. And, you know, I was always, look, when I was a kid, my dad left the family found another family and stopped paying the mortgage. I was so afraid of failing that I believed that if my foot wasn't on the gas at all time, and I didn't outwork everybody, I was going to fail. That's how I felt. Okay. And, you know, I had two small children and my father failed. He failed us. Okay. We lost our home and I wasn't going to lose my children's home. I wasn't going to do it. And so then I'm a perfectionist. So I ran, man, I ran my place like I was Shug Knight. Yeah, me too. Okay. I mean, that's how I ran it. Yeah. Okay. And this time I'm like, remember the movie Meet Joe Black? Yeah. Right. And how elegant Anthony Hopkins was in that film. Yeah. That's how I run my business today. You're making me wonder if I could do it. I think for me that I thought that like my edge also came from like the anger and the anxiety and that also was fueled by like the drinking and the drugs. And so I think that, and we talked a little bit about fear before, I think there's this fear that I can't be as successful being soft. For sure. Yeah. For sure. Absolutely. But isn't it weird that with time and space and sobriety and therapy and just doing whatever you can to just be your best self, right? Over time, these little increments each day make your whole world different after a year and two years and five years, right? And then what happens is you look back and you go, oh my God, I owe these people an amends. There's got to be something I can do for them, make it right, put their kids through college. I don't care. Whatever it is, you've got to make it right. And I'm proud of who I am today. And I don't know you at all, but I'm proud of who you are. Like I'm looking at you and I'm like, you're fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. What are your metrics now, though, for a success? Because I think that's another thing I struggle with, where money can't be the measure anymore of success. So I work a lot in therapy about redefining success now for myself. And so I feel like I've redefined it as being able to stay so or being able to keep my blood pressure down, being able to stay calm. While still doing good things. But what are your metrics now? Because you're still like, you got the number one podcast, you know what I mean? So you're still achieving at a really high level. Is that still, is that still like hitting your dopamine like centers, do you think? Or? No, I don't think, listen, I don't know anything about my podcast. Like I said, I never saw a podcast. I've never listened to a podcast. I don't get the fact that I've got the number one mental health podcast in the country. I don't understand it. I don't get it. Okay. I don't think anybody's listening. Okay. I mean, I, they are, I mean, well, it's funny. I'm getting, I get pulled over on the street. Well, when I was in LA, I got pulled over on the street a couple of times. Kids are taking selfies with me, right? I just didn't understand it. You're like Jay Shetty, you're like bigger than Jay Shetty. Oh, funny. First of all, he's fantastic. He's a thousand times better than me. And I didn't even know who he was. And I've only seen a couple of clips on, on, on, on, Instagram or something. But he is fantastic. But the funniest part about it was when I broke into the top 10 and I showed my ex who I'm still very close with, the best woman alive. You don't have to rub that in that I, I haven't seen my ex in four years and he might be dead. Well, if he's dead, nobody's going to, nobody, nobody, but his mother is going to give a shit. So anyway, yeah, because you don't have kids. The dogs are gone. And his only, and his only, and his only, and his only enabler is his mother. Yeah. So. Okay. So you're ex. So she looks at me and she says, unfortunately, sweetie, you'll never be number one, because Jay Shetty is the best. And so I just looked at her and I said, this man's in the way and walked out the room, right? So when I got to number one, I sent it to her. But what I didn't tell her was he's so much better than me. It's disorienting. Okay. He is, you know, there's some of these people that, that I'm ahead of, that I've listened to a couple of their things, right? They're all better than me. All of them. Not better. He's different. I'm not going to talk shit about a light, light-eyed Indian, but like, you know, there is just a different vibe. When you were drunk, did you ever do something that you were ashamed of? Like, you know, a gang bang or something? You want a drunk porn story? Yeah. Okay. The worst, not worse, but this is what my, my fallback was always like, I think I was always really uncomfortable with like who I was, right? And I was not cool enough and not pretty enough. And so I would always try. Who told you you weren't, who told you you weren't pretty enough? We all know who Indian parents don't like it, a dark skin. They don't like a tint. Oh, they're colorists. Indians are colorists. They're like notorious colorists, right? What do you mean? They like, they, they, they wish their skin was whiter? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They bleach their skin. They like, yeah. The more you're, That's, that's gnarly. I think Indian women are breathtaking. Yeah. The lighter skin you have, the more like marriageable you are. And so there's like, there's this website where Indians go to like meet other Indians shoddy.com, which means like marriage. And so it's kind of like, like it's Indian online dating and, and they have like ways you can like Indian sugar baby websites. I don't, I wouldn't be, I'd be on the shirt the other side of it. I don't need a sugar baby. I need like a sugar, well, I need my own sugar baby. I wouldn't be a sugar baby. I was asking for a friend. I don't think Indian women are necessarily open about wanting to be sugar babies. No. No. So I don't think they would put themselves on a website, but shoddy.com, you select what your skin tone is. So there's like wheatish, like wheatish is sort of like, yeah, you don't want to be wheatish. In your experience, what are some of the early warning signs that someone's relationship with alcohol might be unhealthy? I'm going to answer that. I figured you would. Okay. One of the early warning signs is my husband never comes back home. I was sober for five years when he did that. That's what's great. I get that is what is so crazy. No, the point is, is that you think, I think when you get sober, that everything is going to be better, right? Your relationships are going to be better. Your health is going to be better. Everything is going to get better. And it's not necessarily true. There's stuff you have. It is true. It is true because that was a net positive by losing that. Yes. I see what you're saying. Your life got much better. We think we know. Yeah. But then we look back on it and we go, oh, that's why that happened. Oh, that's why that. I mean, I think getting sober reveals things that maybe you don't necessarily want to see, or it also will get rid of people from your life that aren't maybe meant to be there. You could look at it like that. Let's talk about that for a second because that's one of the things that is the most freeing thing that I did. I got rid of half the people that I was dealing with in my life. Just cut them loose because, you know, it was a grind. And I went ahead and I thought to myself, okay, if these people aren't adding value to my life, then I don't want them around anymore. Okay. And I'm not talking about monetarily. This is not something I care about. I'm talking about, do we enjoy each other's company? Do I like talking to you? Do we support one another? Can I rely on you? You know, just all of it. Like, if it wasn't something that was good for me and good for my soul, I got rid of it. How about you? Yeah, for sure. Right? I think the hard thing is knowing how to do it. It's kind of a skill for people who don't sort of do it themselves. You know how I did it? How? I block them and then erased their contacts so I would never have to deal with them again. All of it. Did you talk to your therapist about this before you did it? No, I'm the most over-therapized person on the planet. I can finish my therapist sentences. I would say that there are healthy ways also to end relationships, but it's not always going to work out that. Was that unhealthy? Was that unhealthy? Blocking people? Oh my God, your husband walked out on your house. That's the ultimate block. Such a block. It all dominates the headlines, but alcohol still kills thousands every year. Do you think its dangers are underestimated, the alcohol part of it? You know, I think that, and we talked about this briefly when you were on our podcast, that I think the margin of error with opioids is so much smaller than alcohol, right? But I think alcohol is so ubiquitous and related to so many chronic conditions that that's probably where the balance is. But I think now, don't you feel like I feel like drinking, not drinking, is part of wellness now, right? Yeah, I think the world's- It's like smoking. Like how smoking, like everybody now knows smoking is bad for you, I think, but people still smoke. I think most people know now that alcohol is- Who smokes? Who smokes? Who do you know that smokes? Okay, so this is really interesting. Okay, so I quit smoking 17 years ago, and I was like, who starts smoking? Like, who actually, like who starts anymore? Who smokes anymore? I've been dating someone for the last few months that smoked when we met, and now he like has a nicotine patch on all the time. Good. Yeah, so I met people- Well, you weren't gonna stick your tongue down somebody's- No, no, I told him. I told him, yeah. That tastes like an ashtray. The first time we kissed, I said, oh, do you smoke? And he said, yeah, and I'm like, that's not gonna work like for me long term, like that's not- And he like, that guy slapped patch on that night, never looked back. So he loves you. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, he does. Yeah, you think, but I mean- Absolutely, he gave up smoking for you. Yeah, but smoking is bad for you, you should give it up. It's sort of like alcohol. How long was he smoking for? Long time, decades. He gave up smoking for you. It doesn't matter if it was bad, it was bad before he met you. Well, wait- He gave up smoking for you. Okay, agreed. I also- That's a guy, that's a guy. You want to be around. You know what? That's a guy. Here, let me help you out. That's a guy who is the complete opposite of someone that leaves the house and never comes back. Yes. Right? I was looking for the complete opposite. That's, and that's what you found. Yeah, that's true. But I do think so. I think that cigarettes for like probably the last like 20 years or 15 years have like an ick factor and I think alcohol is developing that ick factor. Do you see it? Like, is this really in your work? I think that the kids, I think that the kids today are less apt to drink and use than before, than when we were kids. I think a lot of that has to do with the all crisis and everybody overdosing due to the street drugs all being laced with all. So I think that not just obviously what I do and what you do and what, you know, there's a gazillion of these podcasts. Now, everybody, everybody has to have an opinion, right? But what the good part about that is, is that there's so much content out there on every platform talking about, you know, what's dangerous? It's killing our kids, you know, and it's scaring the shit out of people, which is good. Okay. Because it's keeping people alive and it's saving a lot of lives. And you know what, man, I don't know how many lives we're going to save doing this. I have no idea. Okay. But who cares? It's good. It's decent. Right. And that's what we do. And yeah, you do it better than anybody. But I think changing the culture, right, is important too. That's why like when we talk about the sober, curious, it's like, do whatever, do whatever, make it cooler to not drink. Like, let's just do that. Make it. Yeah. Yeah. The kids, the kids today are definitely, look, it's split. You're still going to have the, the loser kids in high school that can't stop smoking and do it in smoking pot and drinking and doing drugs and all that other stuff. But it's not prevalent like it was when I was a kid. My kid is, my kids are in a school and maybe 15% of the kids are screwing around 85% or not. Yeah. Good kids. Yeah. How old are your kids? 12 and 16. Oh my God. Yeah. I know I'm very lucky. All right. Do you think we're seeing the beginning of a cultural shift away from alcohol, especially among younger women? Yeah, I definitely do. Like we were just talking about, I think it's, yeah, I think that that they're super aware of their health in ways that like, I don't even think I thought about what I put in my body until I was like 35. And I think now when I look at like my nieces, they're like 20, 21, 19 and 11, they're so much more aware of what they're putting in their bodies. And yeah, and they're not like the, the older ones like not, not drinkers and like, yeah, I definitely, I definitely think that there's a shift away from that. With that age, I was in everybody, around me was partying. Like going to college was about partying and drinking. I mean, these, like not that it's like, University of Toronto. Okay. Well, that's why. No, it was, yeah, it was crazy. Well, so the drinking age in Canada is 19. So, yeah. Yeah. But I think that, yeah, when I see them and like they work out, I can work out to 38. Like, I'm sort of shocked at how much they know about wellness and, and yeah, how much they know about what they're putting in their bodies. They do skincare. And it's like, what? That's right. I used to wash my face with a bar of soap. What have you personally gained since becoming sober that you didn't expect? I can answer that for you. Yeah. No, I bet you can. I lost a husband. Yeah. Freedom. I lost like 200 pounds. Yeah. That was pretty amazing. Of douchebaggery. Yeah. I mean, I really, I don't know if you know that Mary Carr quote about like, I thought that, that I would lose the sparkle, like when I stopped drinking. And so I really, I thought that those like, you know, those moments of like, aw, like when, you know, after you've had like your first couple of drinks, or you, your first like snort of coke, and you're just like, Oh my God. Like I thought that those sort of like epic moments were over. And now I have them like all the time. Like, and they're more meaningful. So much more meaningful, like so much more like life changing. There's no come down after. And it's like, I really, I think, I mean, and we've spent the last couple of hours together. I mean, I think I'm really fun. And I did not think I would be fun anymore. I thought I'd be sober. Is there anything that we miss talking about, or that you want to promote? No, I mean, of course, Sisters in Suriety, our podcast, which we love. Yeah. But other than that, I just want to come here and hang out with you. This has been a great time. I really appreciate it. See you next Tuesday. There it is.