Episode 492: "The Dreamer" Dusty Rhodes

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Make it happen today at SaveWithConrad.com. Hit on December 212, not on Equal Housing Lender. Welcome to something I wrestle with. Welcome to Rev-a-Wil. Birds, predict. Who's for you? Who's for you? Well, you know. That's not a rid. What a rip. No, you have a me. There's no box of gimmicks. Rumor in the new window. I don't deal in rumor in the new window. And was he there? I was there. There's some of us. I don't give a shit. Welcome to something I wrestle with. The new wrist. Something I wrestle with. Something to wrestle with. Bruce Prichard. Yeah. Oh, that's a good part. That's Martin's guy. And you're listening to Something to Wrestle With. Bruce Prichard. Bruce was going to be on the whole man. Hey, hey, hey, that's me. That's me. I'm so excited to be back with you, dude. We are hitting the stride again. Greatly appreciate you guys hitting that subscribe button and turning on that notifications bell. Welcome to Something to Wrestle With. Bruce Prichard. We're back in the saddle, Bruce. And I got to tell you when we were talking about. I got a lot of them left us out. Well, you know what I mean. But now that we're getting deep again and we're going to get granular again, I think you and I both thought, hey, you know what? Why don't we go back to the very beginning and revisit our very first episode way back in August to 2016. I remember. What do you remember about that first episode, Bruce? I remember just sitting in the little room there with a little microphone and just talking. And then you said, well, and that's a podcast. I was like, we didn't do anything. We just talked. So stories. It was bullshit. I don't get it. What do you mean that's a podcast? Now what do we need to do? We just did it. We did nothing. You just asked me questions. You do that on the couch every night. This is this is no different. He said, well, no, that's podcasts. So how did this stupid shit I've ever seen in my life? Hey, look at us now. Hey, it worked out and I thought, you know what? Then they couldn't look at us then. That's right. Yeah. That's this pre video. Of course, you can watch along with us at somethingnorestal.com. I'm at my house. Bruce is at his and way back. When we recorded this episode, I think in my living room in Huntsville, didn't we? It was like two houses ago. Oh, we did. We did it in. We did it in the room. We did it in the little studio off my garage. Well, I'm excited about the things on the couch. But then you got me in that room. But I said, well, what the fuck is the difference, dude, other than less comfortable setting? That's fair. That's fair. Yeah, I was tricking you. Yeah, I may have had a bag of candy. I know I didn't have a jar of pickles, but no, that's a story for another day. We're going to revisit somebody that you and I both have a lot of respect and admiration for one of the all time greats. We wouldn't be surprised if you landed on your Mount Rushmore. Of course, we're talking about the legend Dusty Rhodes. Back then, we were still trying to figure out, hey, what is something to wrestle with Bruce Prichard? Or was it something to wrestle with Bruce Prichard? Was there a double with? So we were still navigating it. So I thought, hey, let's revisit it, Bruce. And when we think about Dusty Rhodes, I know that we're eventually going to get to the part where you guys are making towns in the WWF, but way back when, in your early fandom, did you see any of his early heel work in Texas? Or did you become a Dusty Rhodes fan once he was more of a national star? Oh, God, no, man. I was a Dusty Rhodes fan from the very first time that I ever put eyes on him. And what captivated me was his promos. But Dusty's mom lived in Houston, Texas at every Christmas. And sometimes Thanksgiving, but Thanksgiving was a big night in the wrestling business all over the country, all over the world. My God, they celebrate Thanksgiving. So it was a big night, and Dusty didn't always get home for Thanksgiving, but Christmas, he would always come home to see his mom. And when he did that, he would appear for Paul Bosch. Now, Dusty was part of the tag team, the Texas Outlaws with Dick Murdock, and Dusty was a heel pretty much everywhere else in the country. But when Dusty came home, man, Dusty could just turn on that Dusty charm, and Dusty would get out, and he would cut his promos, all about just mama coming home and being too sweet to be sad. I'm 268 pounds of Texas steel, in sex appeal, I'm the women's penta-mendric grating. Woo, baby. Take a look at what you see, what you don't see is even better yet. But Dusty would do these Muhammad Ali raps. And Dusty would later on go to Florida, become the American dream, and become a babyface, and really become the American dream by God. That was, you know, that was beautiful. And that was something that I think people gravitated to. But we got it first in Houston, because he wasn't going to be a babyface with mama there. And I got to tell you something about mama Rose, all right? She came every single time he was there. As a little kid, I would go and meet her, and take her to her box, and, you know, sit her in her box, make sure she had her popcorn, and her drinks, or whatever it was she was having, and all that. So, is a very, very young age. I knew mama Rose, and I knew Dusty, and Dusty, well, what was up, kid? I wasn't punging head all the way yet, understand? But I do know from a good friend, dear close personal longtime friend, Terry Funk, that Dusty's mama was a whore. Oh my gosh, will you stop? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. I hope Cody's not listening to this one. I don't know how Cody knows. He knows all about grandma Rose. So, but I tell you, here's the best part, is we were in Houston, and we were working the Compact Center, the Gold Summit, and she was there, she was backstage. And I knew she was gonna be there, but I didn't know that she was there at that moment, going down the hall, and I see Dream, and I just show, Virgil, Virgil, your mother's a whore. And he turns around, and there's Mama Rhodes. Oh my god. I thought she was gonna whip my ass, but thank god she didn't. What year was that when you when you yelled and Mama Rhodes heard? When Dusty came in, probably 89, 90. Oh my god. My god. Did a shot in Houston and was there? So when you were, Virgil, you wanna meet my mom? So when you're a little kid and you're attending the matches on Christmas night, they were called her a whore when I was a little kid. Of course. But what year was it? Wasn't ever there yet. You stop. Was that the 60s and yet the 70s? When was this? What? When you were seeing Dusty at Paul's matches. 70s. 70s, okay. 70s, yes. And I know you said a minute ago, you know, Dusty wasn't gonna be a baby face with Mama Rhodes in the audience. You meant a heel. He had to be a baby face. Yes, yes. Hot baby. I miss book. You know what Conrad? I know like probably in time. I don't know what time zone I am in right now. You're in Eastern running. Okay, but I'm okay that I've been back and forth between many, many time zones, been literally around the world. And I'm just trying to catch up. Man, I'm just trying to catch up. Now you're asking me about goddamn years and months and hours and things of that nature. Where are we recording this? I don't know, but we're recording it before Eric. We're recording it before it airs. And at least a half hour after we thought we would. But that's at least a half hour. But that was the case with the guy over the top. 100%. My fault. I overslept. I did it. I just know. No, it's all good. It's all good. I just overslept. But I'm drinking my prime. Dream orange. Oh, in honor of us. No, Dream Pop. It is amazing. Dream Pop. So it's like a creamsicle. I got that. But I mean, really, it's celebrating the American dream and nobody got pops like him. So it makes sense that you're drinking the Dream Pop. They call them Dream Pop, baby. Big Dream Pop. And then they came on Road Warrior Pop. That just goes right underneath the Dream Pop. Hey, so we know Dusty's going to become a mega national star as a baby face. What do you think his ceiling would have been as a heel? Like nationally, if he would have tried to make a serious heel run, I know he could have made anything work. But would he have achieved the same level of success, do you think, as a heel? I don't think so. And here's why. Because the charisma that Dusty had, the aura that Dusty had, it was the type of baby face. It was a kick-ass baby face that could work with any heel in any territory at any time and make it mean something. You have to invest time as a heel to really mean something in that regard. So I don't think that there would have been time for the legend, if you will, of the American dream Dusty grows. Maybe he wouldn't have even been the American dream. But for Dusty Rhodes to come in as a heel, you got to invest in him. And then when you do, what are you really getting out of it as a heel? Unless he were the champion. But Dream is a baby face was a mega star that people just wanted to see. They just wanted to see him. They just wanted to hear those promos. They wanted him in their town talking about their heel, talking about their town. And being there and coming out of it and being able to say, you know, if they knew it, they knew it last night in the keel out of the toe, I would have worked, Charlie Ray's ass. I took him up with it one pillar and down the other post and whooped his ass so bad, it was all funky like a monkey and ain't nobody, ain't nobody, that ever saw Charlie Ray pin my shoulder to the mat without a little help. Had a little bit of trunk, if you will. And that the only way he was able to do it. So I just wanted to hear that because I knew Dusty was going to come back and kick his ass. And Dusty always could come back and kick his ass as a baby face and get a win without hurting anybody. So one of the things that Silva was just showing us something, wrestle.com, you can see the old pictures of Dusty. And we know in the 80s, he would go on TBS and say something like, you know, my belly is just a little big. My high knees just a little big. But I think he was kind of deceptive in that looks can be deceiving, I guess, better said, because man, he could really move for a big guy. And you got to see some of that up close and personal. He was agile, right? Yeah. Think about it, man. Look, Dusty was a world-class athlete. Do you look like what when you say, Hey, this is a world-class athlete, what you think world-class athletes should look like? Maybe not. However, the Dusty had ungodly strength. Dusty had ungodly speed and he was he was very good at what he did. He just looked different. And I dare say he was able to identify with more of the audience because of the way he looked. He didn't he didn't hide his misgivings, if you will. Like, like, I got a little bit of a belly. You won't see it. I got Bill B. Black on the side of my belly right over here. I ain't coming off shit. And that is what made the people love him so much. He was unashamed to who he was. He was proud of who he was. And he he lived it, man. That that was you didn't not believe what the dream was telling you at the time. It may be it may be ridiculous, but chances are it was probably true. Hey, I want to ask you, you know, there were lots of other wrestlers that we would get familiar with in the 70s, 80s and I guess even early 90s, bigger guys who could still move, like Adrian Adanas or Dick Murdock or Buddy Rose types. Is there somebody out there these days who at a glance you may say, hey, that's not all that athletic, but then you actually see him and you're like, whoa, I was wrong. Is there a modern equivalent to that style of wrestler that we were very familiar with back then? Do those guys exist today in 2025? Yeah, you know, off the top of my head, first name comes to mind is like a Bronson Reed. He's a big guy. He can move. Yeah, he can move. You know, you look at Jacob Fattu, you look at people like that that are big, big men that move like 200 pounder. Right. So, you know, it wasn't the case in Dusty's era because it was if you were a big guy, most of the time you were lumbering and really moving in slow motion and everything you did. Whereas the appeal of Dusty Rhodes was that he was a big guy that could move and do different things and tell you about it. One of the things you and I've never really talked about is Dusty really got over big with that New York crowd in the old WWWF territory, not just because of the magazines, but because Vince McMahon Sr. and Eddie Graham had made a deal where Florida TV would actually air in New York. But the local promo spot would feature promos for MSG. That feels like an unusual arrangement. What, if anything, can you tell us about that? Well, it may have been unusual at that time, but nobody else had. There were so few territories that were able to get their television in other markets other than their home markets. So, that was the unusual part about it is that Eddie was able to get his television in the New York market and not really having the desire, per se, to go and promote New York. But he also knew the importance of that television and for Vince Sr. It's like, hey, this is a hell of an opportunity to promote your events because they're going to be watching wrestling. Might as well plug your stuff. So, to me, the arrangement was one of it made sense and it was best for both groups. And the hottest guy in Florida territory was Dusty Rhodes. Now, you could have taken anybody else during that era from Florida and brought them to New York. I don't know that they would have had the same success as Dusty did. I want to ask, you know, when we know we're going to get into the 1989, 1990 Dusty Rowan that you enjoyed with him as a part of the WWF. But what was your relationship like with Dusty prior to that? I mean, I know you had mentioned that you had met him when you were a kid and he was just calling you kid, but that's probably before you guys became friendly and he was really calling you pumpkin head or whatever. What was the relationship called at pre-89? Oh, it was all just business when Dusty would come through Texas and or come through mid-south. You know, I'd see him at the Superdome shows and he came to Houston and would see him in Houston. But it wasn't friendly. You know, he knew me only because I would always take care of his mother in Houston and Houston was not. If Dusty were touring with Crockett or whatever, wasn't one of their tours, you know, Dusty would come in and do Houston. It was different. So he knew who I was from that. But we weren't friendly by any stretch of the imagination. It was just simply, hey, how you doing? Yeah. Okay. Good to see you. All right. Have a good day. Okay. Good. Yeah, baby. All right. I got to go with you. I got to look at it. It's like what? I was just laughing my bad. Yeah. Sorry. I was just creating stories and that was it. Then when he came into New York, that is where, you know, I was here, bro. God damn, he's yours. And I sat under the learning tree. Let's talk about how that happened because I think everybody listening to this by now knows that, of course, Jim Crockett Promotions is going to sell the Ted Turner. Ted Turner is going to make some sort of a loose deal with Jim Crockett Jr. That he's going to be able to still run wrestling operations. But very quickly, Jack Patrick Cassin's Mr. Heard and well, maybe Dusty starts to realize, I don't know if this is for me. They do that pretty controversial road warrior spike angle. One thing leads to another and Dusty is out as Booker. And now he's going to be sort of a man with no country. And very briefly, he goes back down to Florida and tries to relive those Florida championship dreams from once upon a time in that Florida territory with Steve Kern and Mike Graham. What was the conversation like, if anything, with Vince or you about Dusty? Do you remember it ever coming up? Because it does feel like in different times in his career, when you hear a talent is now available and they've moved on from the old rival or the old competitor, you would want to reach out to them. Was there just lingering hard feelings, you think, between Dusty and Vince during that whole promotional war of the Crocketts and the NWA versus WWF? Why didn't he just immediately come to the WWF is what I'm striving at. I don't know that there were hard feelings at all. Anytime, really. You go back and you look at the history of what happened with Dusty at the NWA or WCW, whatever it was called at the time, when Turner purchased the company and Dusty was the Booker, before that there had been a power play with Dusty and Ric Flair, who was going to have the book and George and who was going to be the boss and what have you. You know, they were cutting cute little shoot style promos on TBS and things like that, just talking about political power and who has the pencil, who has the eraser, whatever you want to do. I think there were no jobs in front of 10,000 people or whatever. Yeah. So it was contentious at best. And Dusty, I think, was kind of flexing his muscles and seeing what he could and or could not get away with. And in trying to prove that I'm Dusty Rose, maybe I can do anything I want to do. They need the American Dream. They were told no blood. It was the first show and they, Heyman hit Cornette with a phone and they got all kinds of blood. Turner, people said, yeah, no more blood. And Dusty went out and did the whole spike gimmick. And a little like a stuck pin. The brass Turner didn't like it. You know, they gave them, they gave him options. They said, you know, look, here's your last date. You finish up the star cane, you move on and it's I got stuff falling down all around me. See, you made me change up all my shit here. Now I got things I got to move. Now see, there goes the damn pen again. It'll stop falling if you'll stop touching it. Just I will. I know, but I fling. I talked with my hand. That's true. You do. I can find like like new. Move. I'll sign language. Those sign. You guys got it. The hell was I talking about Dusty Dusty was giving options. Yeah, you could finish up. Dusty was giving options as to whether he, you know, he wanted to stay if he wanted to stay on the other side, just book the one was performer anymore. And Dusty really wanted to go back to Florida. Dusty wanted to have his dream of having his own territory and running his territory the way that he saw fit. And that's what he did. You know, open up, uh, was it turnbuckle promotions or something like that? He would eventually do turnbuckle championship. Turnbuckle, he did turnbuckle. But I think maybe I did that was later. I don't know, but he opened that up in Florida and wanted to do that. Wanted to run those towns and all of that. Sent a letter to Vince and Vince was like, oh, hey, look, a lot of times it's so many things are going on that. Okay, Dusty, Dusty got fired. All right. Well, maybe he should have got fired. Let's see if he, if he's interested in coming here, he'll let us know. And maybe ask something else. When he went and did the Florida championship wrestling, the assumption is, well, he had something else. So it just was different. And then Dusty sent a letter and was like, okay, hey, let's check this out. Let's, let's see how much he would like to be here. And then it was, you really want to come? Okay, great. And then we went from there, but it was, I'm pretty sure Dusty sent the letter to Vince and then he called him and said, what do you want to do? I want to fit in that champ right there. You know, that one on the red. Can't see all of it because he's in my chair. Hey man, is it just me or did we all wake up one day and go to get out of bed and say, wait, why are my joints so stiff? Well, that happens naturally because starting in your mid twenties, your collagen production starts to naturally decline in your body. And that's where Bubbs Naturals Collagen Peptides come in. 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This will dissolve in your coffee, your water or smoothie. It all happens without taste or clumps. They've got over 100,000 happy customers and they were actually voted 2024's best collagen by health.com. Live better, longer. For a limited time only, our listeners are getting 20% off at Bubbs naturals by using the code wrestle a checkout. Just head on over to bubs naturals.com and use the code wrestle and you're all set. After you purchase, they're going to ask you how you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. That's bubs naturals.com and use the promo code wrestle. So Dusty sends a letter to Vince and clearly Vince was a fan of Dusty. I mean, you've told us in other episodes years past that in an alternate timeline, you know, Dusty would have been the guy getting that big national expansion run and we even sort of imagined and I'm sure Silva will have a visual representation of what it would look like to see on that original WrestleMania poster, you know, Dusty Rhodes standing next to Mr. T. But maybe Dusty just wasn't bought in on that vision back then. Do you think, do you think Vince maybe took that personally a little bit? No, I think, you know, look hindsight is 2020. So I think there's a big part of Vince that says, thank God, I went with Ogan. Right. Oh my God, what have I gone with Dusty? The unknown is a scary place sometimes. However, in the moment, man, Dusty Dusty was a shit. Dusty was the most charismatic guy out there and Dusty could do it all. He had a look, he had a rap. There just wasn't it was hard to find a negative with Dusty Rhodes. He was a national star. He was easily recognizable. He could fit in any situation that you wanted to put him in. That's the beauty of Dusty Rhodes. But Dusty went down, Vince sent him to the hit factory, the record production company there in New York City and Dusty did that and then just ghosted everybody and like, yeah, you know, I can do all this on my own. I don't need to be in what I mean by doing it all on his own. He wanted to be the man. He wanted to be the booker. He wanted to be the star. He wanted to be the owner. He wanted to be everything. Yeah. And that wasn't going to happen up here. So Dusty did his thing. Vince made the call and pulled the plug on Ogan. Pulled the trigger on Ogan, not the plug. Oh my God. What do you mean bad? And Dusty went on and Dusty did his thing in the Carolinas to a smaller degree. And it was, I think in many ways that Dusty regretted not taking that opportunity at the time. And I think that Vince kind of would wipe his brow saying, thank God, I went with Ogan at the time. But again, there was no, there was always a feeling of, how do you say, maybe money on the table, not having Dusty earlier, not having Dusty to be a part of that because Dusty would have made a hell of a lot more money. Being a part of all of that. Yes. Not necessarily as the number one guy, but being a part of it, then he did be in the top dog and the boss and everything else. It crocked. But again, that's hindsight, that speculation. Who knows? Dusty Rhodes definitely could have been, man, that wouldn't have been an A and a B town. That would have been two A towns there, built upright. With Dusty headlining one, Ogan headlining another. It makes a lot of sense. I mean, I could have gotten really excited about that. I wish it would have happened in an alternative universe, but we know that Dusty writes a letter now and Vince is going to receive it. Vince calls him up and you sort of, maybe it was tongue in cheek, maybe you were serious during that face-to-face meeting where Dusty comes to visit Vince. A, were you in the room and B, was that a real story of, hey, I'd like to come up here and help you book? Or was it strictly about, I want to make some talents for you? No, it was, to be fair, and I think that this was kind of held against Dusty, at least in Dusty's head in a lot of respects, but it was, look, it was nothing was brought up in sitting down and Dusty saying, I want to be sitting in your seat. That happened. And, well, let me say this, I was told that happened. I was not in that meeting. No, I came in right after, but I was not in there for that. I heard all about it, but the fact that I heard about it from Pat and Vince and I heard about it from Dusty, right, you know, three guys that were in the meeting all told me that same story. So, I'm going to say it happened. And that kind of, you know, I think Vince probably felt like he should be thinking about how he's going to help us here, contribute in the ring, and then we can, Vince always thought, man, we can get there. We can get there, Dream, to have him, you work with us, but Vince also wanted it to be a part of the team. Was never going to just hand the reins over to someone. Do you think, well, I shouldn't say do you think, let me ask, you know, when, when Crockett goes down and has to sell to Ted Turner, we learned years later that there was a, I mean, the company was failing. It was in the red. Of course, that's the only reason any of these territory owners sold. Do you think that Dusty felt any sort of blame or responsibility, or did Vince poke any blame and say, oh, well, it was Dusty's booking that allowed this to happen, or was that sort of thing, or was that all just a separate issue and not affect their relationship at all? Effect Vince's relationship with Dusty? Well, just the way he saw him as a potential booker, like, you know, like when something bad happens, and I'm not comparing Dusty Rhodes to Vince Russo, like we know it didn't go well for Vince Russo and WCW, and that sort of has followed him around ever since. And I'm wondering. Didn't go well with Vince Russo anywhere. Okay. I mean, once he left WWE, which, you know, again, the big stuff was Vince McMahon, but it didn't go well really for Vince Russo beyond that. Well, that's a separate conversation. I'm really just trying to dive into, do you think Vince had any of that towards Dusty? No, I understand what you're asking. And I think that a lot of blame could be spread around on what happened with Jim Crockett's promotions. Of course. Look, Jim was not a great businessman by any stretch of the imagination. And Jim was, he believed in Dusty and he bought in. You know, he also believed in Flair and always didn't make decisions that would be best for business. He would make decisions based on emotion. Yeah. And he would make, you know, decisions just based on whoever he talked to last. So I don't think that you'll find many people that would tell you, boy, Jim Crockett was a great promoter and a great businessman. He had a run with some really great people around him that were at the top of their game at the time, but nobody in that group knew how to sustain it. He was like, okay, I'm going to get you the pop. I'm going to get you the, I'm going to get you the, the initial explosion, but I can't either. Couldn't get beyond that. And I think that's what would happen. And everybody that knows that, that can look at it, can look at it and say, well, not all Dusty's fault, not all Crockett's fault. Of course. Not all. It was a combination. It was, it was everybody's fault. I think they were all at fault and unfortunately, you know, it came to an end. Dusty has to accept some blame, but if you, if you don't fall down, you're never going to learn how to get back up. And I think that was kind of the feeling in there and that can't all be put on Dusty. Is that part of the reason you think, you know, you said a minute ago that, that Vince sort of thought, Hey, we can get there talking about transitioning Dusty from, put a quote, just being in ring to also booking. Do you feel like events would have allowed him to have a little more input into the booking? You know, now it could have muddied the waters a little bit. We needed to establish, for lack of a better word, a hierarchy. I hate the way that sounds, but Vince was the boss in the WWF and Dusty creatively had been the boss everywhere he had been previously for several years. And we're going to have to establish like a new hierarchy here and make sure that Dusty can fit in the WWF. So let's try him first in the ring. Do you think that's part of Vince's thinking if you had to guess? Vince knew that he had limited time left with Dusty in the ring. I see. Okay. You want to get, you want to get the performer out of him. And you don't, and you don't want to screw up that performer by having them be a part of anything creative. Because that's going to put undue heat on them and just it's unnecessary. So it's, it's like, you can't, that would have been doing a disservice to Dusty Rhodes. And we were looking, we were looking for the performer. We were looking for the American Dream Dusty Rhodes, the common man, to come out and do his thing. We're looking for Virgil the book. Right. So that's kind of, you know, where you get to that we were protecting Dusty from himself in that regard. Come on in, and be the dream, be the character, be the talent, and grab the, grab these years, man, and make the most out of it. And that's what he did. Of course, you gotta, you gotta wonder, you know, was that hard for, for the real life Dusty Rhodes to get comfortable with? Because he had been sort of battling creatively and representing and waving that JCP NWA flag against the WWF for the majority of the eighties. And now here we are in 1989, he's writing a letter and going to see Vince. Do you think Dusty at any point felt like he was quote unquote bending the knee? Because at that point, you know, he doesn't work for the other team, but once upon a time, it did feel like it was, you know, Dusty versus Vince creatively. I mean, you guys had done, you know, the million dollar man thing where his manservant is named Virgil and you've created the one man gang character to now be akin the African dream doing the dancing and so forth. And now he's coming to work for him. Did that take a little bit of a swallowing of the pride from Dusty? Did he ever express that to you or was it just business? And this is the only logical next step. I think Dusty might have felt that way. Yeah. I think that Dusty, you know, may have thought that the vignettes and some of the things were a rib, they were not. I think they are still iconic to this day that I will stand behind against anybody that wants to say, oh, we were just making fun of Dusty Rhodes and in all of that. Absolutely not the case. It was trying to accentuate the Dusty character and the Dusty personality that he just had. It was so good and make it even larger than life. The vignettes we did from the pizza man to the plumber, you know, and, you know, we'll always go to the polka dots. But the polka dots are what people remember Dusty for and so many, I would venture to say, more people, more people, not the loud people that talk online and all this, more people remember Dusty Rhodes polka dot Dusty Rhodes than do the ass kicker Dusty Rhodes. And that's where, you know, the rub was because Dusty wanted to be the ass kicker and then wanted him to be the entertainer. And you got to be an entertaining Dusty. It's like I'm not, I don't want to see you out there, you're kicking somebody's ass is the baddest bad man ever. Because you should be the common man. You should be the guy sitting in the fourth row. You should be the guy that's larger than life. I was going to have that $10,000 smile, you know, and doing all of those fun things. People like to get up and dance, you know, dreams, dance, he's having fun. People want to have fun. You go out, you want to have fun. And there were times Dusty gets in the ring, does it man? He becomes, he becomes that other guy. But up into that, just to take that personality, which was already larger than life and make it even bigger and make it a mega mega star. So I think Dusty always saw himself as I could be the world champion. And look, Dusty rumor has it that Dusty cried when Dusty won the title and Fritz pulled out of all the world championship bookings. And there was another promoter, but I know Fritz was the one that really hurt Dusty because he thought they were friends. And Fritz was like, yeah, I have no desire using Dusty Rhodes as champion. Wow. I did not know that. And Dusty was so upset because Dusty thought, man, you know, I finally get my opportunity to be a champion. And then now the guys are dropping their dates because I'm the champion. And they just didn't think Dusty was a credible champion. In the vein of a Jack Briscoe or a Terry. In the vein of what the NWA champion had been, you know, the guy that he's got an amateur background. He's got this and what have you and and by God, somebody hit the ring. Could he break their leg? No, but you know what? I think Dusty has the NWA champion. Dusty was a better challenger than champion. Okay. Because you wanted to see Dusty get it. But then once he got it, it's like the dog that catches the car. Now what? I got you. Dusty was bigger than that. Dusty was a great challenger. Dusty was a mega star. Dusty did not need that title. Wanted it. But he didn't necessarily need it. All right, man. I got to tell you, this is maybe our best offer of the year from Stopbox USA. And it's just in time for the holidays thinking about not just you, but that guy or gal in your life who owns a handgun for self-defense. Let me tell you, their story is likely fits into one of two pretty frustrating categories. It's either locked away, meaning it's safe, but it's out of reach in case of an emergency or it's unsecured, which means you're living it vulnerable to anyone. Stopbox USA solved the problem and designed a groundbreaking solution. We call it the Stopbox Pro. And with the Stopbox Pro, you'll never have to choose between security and readiness again. It's ingenious push button locking system gives you fast, reliable access when every second matters, without the hassle of keys or reliance on batteries. It's 100% mechanical, so it works every time no power needed. 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Whatever you're looking for, they got it at Stopbox. By the way, the holidays just got a lot safer and a whole lot more affordable. Right now, for a limited time only, our listeners are getting a crazy deal, really. Not only do you get 10% off your entire order when you use the code STW10 at StopboxUSA.com, but they're also hooking you up with a buy one, get one free for their Stopbox Pro. That's right, 10% off and a free Stopbox Pro when you use the code STW10 at StopboxUSA.com. That's StopboxUSA.com and the promo code is STW10. Let's talk about why you think he wanted it. I mean, I know this is predating your WWF experience with him, but why do you think Dusty wanted to be the champ? Was it because it was an acknowledgement that he was at the top of his game and he was the best in the industry because it made the most money, because it just traveled well? What was his motivation, do you think, to being the world champion? And it means so much. Ego. It's simple. It's ego. If you do not get into the business, if you are not becoming a professional wrestler, to be the world champion and to be the man and to be the one that is drawing the money and paying everybody, then I don't know why the hell you're in the business. So Dusty, that was his mindset. He wanted to be the championship, recognizes that with a piece of leather and some tin on it. That says that guy is the best in the world, but that's a work. The reality of it is a personality like the American Dream, Dusty Rhodes, could sell out with a personal issue and do a lot more business than the title ever did. But Dusty, I think, wanted it for credibility for his own ego. So he can say I was an NWA World Heavyweight Champion. To me, that makes sense, but it's hard when you're the boss to book yourself into that. Because now it really is ego and people are going, what about me? What about me? What about me? It's a difficult position to be in as well. Did anybody ever do that well, being an in-ring performer and booking and being the champion? Is there an example where it really worked historically? Wow. I can't think of one. I immediately go to the Sheik and the Sheik built that town and killed that town with just doing everything the same way. But he was the champion and never lost and just beat the hell out of everybody and have six-minute main events and things of that nature. But he was also the booker and my God, that was his town and he was going to book himself on top. But I think that's an example of killing. Right. Killing it. Boy, Conrad, I'm stumped. I'm trying to think of someone that really ever did it successfully. When you were thinking about Dusty earlier saying, hey, he wanted to do it all. He wanted to own it. He wanted to book it. He wanted to be the champion. Is that, he thought of himself like a Bill White, like a Vern Ganya, like a Sheik. Or is there another example that when you said Dusty kind of wanted it all, he thought, hey, I want to do what that guy's doing. Does that guy exist? I would say, I think that Vern and Watts are great examples, wrestlers that still were able to book. But hey, Watts, I don't think Bill got it later on, especially when Bill became the owner, that he needed a booker that didn't work. He saw that. So, yeah, I think Dusty wanted to be like Eddie, Eddie Graham, and saw that. I think that's what he wanted. But again, like I said, I don't begrudge anybody. And I think if you're in this business and you don't want to be champion and you don't want to be the top guy, well, what do you do? I just want to be, you know what, I'd like to be the second match every night somewhere. Nobody says that. Maybe they do. Maybe I just don't understand it. Times have changed throughout my life, Conrad. I'm just telling you, some things have changed. Obviously, you and I are self-admitted, huge Dusty Rhodes, Marx, not a word we used all the time, but we're excited to use it for Dusty. We were such big fans of his. But I think, you know, Cody has been open about the fact that, you know, at different times, the wrestling business wasn't always paying the bills the way it used to. Do you think that his experience in Florida, and maybe it wasn't going as swimmingly as he hoped, was the reason he wrote Vince, or is it the idea that he was also trying to bring Dustin into the business? Because I know that started in Florida, and did he think, hey, it would be good for the family, but it would also be really good for Dustin. If I could get him ingrained with the WWF as well. Do you think his primary motivation was when he wrote that letter to Dusty, to Vince, if you had to guess? Self-preservation. Okay. And a combination of everything else. I think that Dream looked at it in that he did not have long prime years to work. Some people would argue that certainly wasn't, but he did. Dusty still had something left in the tank. And, but I think Dusty was also smart enough to realize that I don't want to be doing this for another five years. I need to go in. I need to get a run. I need to get my money. And then hopefully have a future here. And his future, in his mind, he saw taking over what Pat did and then basically let Vince, you go on and be on an island somewhere and enjoy life. Sorry, I bumped my thing there. But go enjoy your life somewhere and I'll handle everything here. So we know that Dusty's going to come in and he's actually going to make his debut on the house shows, believe it or not. He was a substitute for Jake the Snake Roberts against Jake's scheduled matches and announced them promoted matches against Ted DiBiase. And he's ridiculously over, even before he ever appears on WWF TV. His second match for the company is at the Boston Garden and longtime area fan and tape collector, John McAdam, once described it on his old website, quote, I was at the show. It was supposed to be DiBiase versus Jake Roberts, but Jake was a no show when Rhodes, who hadn't even been on TV yet, was announced as the sub. The Boston Garden went crazy. People were jumping up and down on their seats, hugging. It was insane. So even by big pop standards, having fans jumping up and down in their seats and hugging complete strangers is unusual. Did you see these reactions in person that people were just thrilled that Dusty Rhodes from the other channel was now in the WWF? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It would, you know, again, that was the beauty of it, where Dusty was coming from, where he was on top, you know, coming back and in those markets specifically. And that was all a Northeast run. So we were able to go to markets that were so traditional New York and where Dusty had intermittently been throughout the years and would come in and do shots and make appearances in those markets. But now it was different. Now it was like Dusty's here. Dusty's part of WWE and it's going to be, this is going to be huge. So yeah, I think we would have been really disappointed if he didn't get those pops. So Vince was kind of expecting that sort of reaction when he came in. We sure as hell hoping for it. If you're taking a look with us here on something to wrestle.com, this is the footage from his second match at the Boston Garden in Boston, Massachusetts. He had debuted a few days prior, May 29th, 1989, also against DBSC at the Montreal Forum in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. But this match we're looking at here is June 3rd, 1989. We were off to the races. I mean, the next day he's in Portland, the day after that he's in Cedar Rapids, the day after that he's in Wisconsin. And he's working with Ted DBSC. And what's interesting is for years and years, people thought that Ted DBSC would have potentially been in line to be the next NWA World Champion. And we know he instead wound up working with Vince McMahon and the World Wrestling Federation. You're welcome. He's a tough guy. What was their relationship like talking about Dusty and DBSC? Friendly. I don't know that they necessarily really had a good relationship until later in their career. But I think that their relationship was good. It was friendly and professional. I don't know if they were best buddies, but they definitely worked well together and liked each other. So there was a definite respect factor there on both sides. I know some of our listeners were probably hearing me ask that question and wonder who in the world could not like Dusty? That's a silly question. But Meltzer reported in the Observer around the same time that Dusty was coming in that there may have been some bad feelings amongst some of the other talent in the locker room because let's not forget Dusty had been a booker before and some of those former colleagues in the locker room in the WWF may not have been thrilled he was here to the point that allegedly, according to the rumor in Innuendo, there was a memo sent out to talent to make sure they treated Dusty with the same respect they would any other peer. Do you remember something like that happening? Was there a memo to talent saying, hey, he's one of us now. You got to treat him accordingly? Sort of deal? I don't know. There was ever a memo to talent. I can't recall too many memos to talent outside of large events where we're sending out things about the event and what have you. I don't remember that. I have no idea if that ever happened or not. I know in the beginning, Dusty and I traveled together to try to just ease that a little bit. I said, wait a minute. I said, do you want me to travel with him so he doesn't get heat? That's not the best idea. I'm just saying that it's may add to it. That's what you're looking for. I can do that. No, it was just to be there for him. It was great for me because I got to sit under the learning tree and just listen to and poke the bear. It was great. I got to know Dusty in ways that never thought were possible. He would really open up and really just come out and just be a wealth of information and just this beautiful human being that is Dusty Rhodes. Yeah. Let's be clear. When you're running talent relations or you're the booker, I mean, those are heat positions. You can't make everybody happy on every given night. So people are, of course, naturally going to form their own opinions and it is what it is. It's just the nature of the beast. Here's the funny thing. Is that perceived heat and that perceived reaction was mostly coming from people who had never even worked for Dusty. It's like, come on, man. The guys that had worked with Dusty, we didn't have a whole lot of them, per se. Most of it was guys hearing, well, are this son of a bitch, did this to my friend, or he did this, not going to do that to me here. He's not going to be booking guys. He's just coming in as a talent. That's all he's doing. Treat him just like you would. Whoever else is sitting next to you on the other side of you in the locker room. That was what was interesting about that. Do you feel comfortable naming any names of people who weren't totally warmed up to the idea immediately, but then eventually did come around? God, man. It's hard to remember, but I do remember the scuttlebutt, the rumblings of, oh, boy, Dusty, come and fuck him. Then when you dig down and analyze, you never even worked for him. Right. How do you know? That was different, if you will. Let's talk about, now that we've got him on the road, he's getting acclimated with the locker room. We didn't talk about this. We mentioned the talent. How was he with the agents? Who were the agents in, say, 89? Did he have a good relationship with those guys? Yeah, Lanzas, Strongbow, Gria, guys like that. Yeah, I think Dusty had a real good relationship with him. Again, I don't ever remember, ever, Dusty having an adversarial relationship with anybody when he was up here. He did his job. He did his gig. I don't know if he had an adversarial relationship with them. Let's talk about those vignettes. You referenced them earlier. I mean, they still stand out. People are still talking about them all these days later. You said the vision that Vincent sort of laid out was, you're the every man. You're the common man. You can be in the fourth row. You're one of them. You're the man of the people. I get all that. That makes total sense. But how do we land on these individual, I guess we'll call it occupations, because he's doing sort of common man jobs. He's a pizza delivery man. He's a plumber. He's a garbage collector. He's a meat cutter at a butcher shop. He's a gas station attendant. He's a taco chef at a Mexican restaurant. Are these all your ideas or who's coming up with these different ideas for these vignettes? And what can you tell us about the way these were put together? It's a combination. So we came up, obviously, with the common man and the fact that he's doing ordinary things with ordinary people, and people just accept him as one of their own. And then they realize, aren't you American Dream, Dusty Rhodes? So to that, it was, let's put him in every day situations, every day scenarios. So he's delivering your pizza. And the guy delivering your pizza is is the American Dream, Dusty Rhodes. When you get to a pizza, you're walking around. Aren't you? You need a plumber. He's the son of a plumber. So the plumber comes in and he got the do-do in the toilet bowl there, and he cleaned it all up, make it all shimmery and buff-sitting and everything. And he had to do, I think it was a bypass 16 quadruple in bypass, where you're plumb with and after you don't need to see that right now. And he was the plumber, man. You're pulled up to a gas station and you have full service gas stations back then. He's the guy that greets you. Hey, can I fill up your tank and clean your window and check your oil and does everything for you? And as you drive away, it's like, hey, aren't you? And all those things, the butcher shop. But see, here's my favorite part about the Dusty Vignettes. Everything was pretty much running gun. The pizza stuff was done at Bobby Heenan's house. The plumber was done at Bobby Heenan's house. The stable, where do-do is good for me and do-do is good for you. That was done at Bobby's stables, where his daughter rode horses. And then the meat market was me going into a meat market down the street from the studio and saying, hey, I'd like to shoot some stuff in here. You think you could do it and blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden, nah, okay, sure. You can go. Old German butcher, man. He was a character in and of himself. There he is. And going in with a camera crew and just doing this. Dusty was too clean. So there was like a bunch of meat and stuff with all this just red, all the juice and everything. And the bottom I go, I was dreaming you're too clean. And I take the thing and just dump the thing and smear the blood all over him. All over is just everywhere so that he looked like a butcher, by God. And the gas station, we pulled up and said, hey, man, could we do this? Could we shoot this? And if any business does come in during that time, he'll fill the tank, he'll do everything, you know, and all this stuff. You don't mind us shooting it. We'll deal with people with releases and everything if they come in. But then we just shot it. We had our car, we had our makeup artist drive the car in and she was the customer. And things were going on. Dusty was doing other cars and stuff and filling them up, you know, when they would come up and just stayed in character the whole time. The taco one, that was Tacos Guadalajara in Sanford. And the guy right there, that's John, he and his parents own Tacos Guadalajara. It was a place Alfred Hayes and I ate lunch, like every other three days or whatever. And so I do, hey, John, on Beyond TV? Sure. So we shot in there. And that's the simplistess of it all and getting there in the moment and being like, all right, what do we have here? What can we use? What can we do? All right, got that over there. We can do this, we can do that. And just boom, do it. Come up with, you know, come up with the outline. You know, sometimes people can beat my practice here in the American Dream Butcher Shop, but you never can beat my meat. You know, little things like just stupid shit. Do-do's good for me and do-do is good for you. Simple. But you remember that stupid shit. And Dusty, after the first one, man, Dusty was a little... Which one was first? Which one was first? Just one was pizza, man. Okay, let's show that picture again because Dusty delivering pizza with a shirt that's got... It's a white t-shirt and it's got the sleeves cut off and clearly you guys just wrote with a sharpie pizza on it. This feels like the most ridiculous piece of the whole thing. Like, at least when he's doing the taco shop, he's got a logo on the shirt. This is hilarious to me. I don't know why, but it stands out. I made that shirt. Okay, I'm sure you're proud of it, but Lord... I am proud of it. He came in and nice, nice looking, you know, white shirt and all this. He said, no. So what you'd wear? It's Florida. It's 118 degrees here. Come on. Pizza. I got to know who you are for you. Pizza. Just say pizza. I'm your pizza man. That's who I am. This is before there was a big props department, I'll take it. It's just Bruce. I was the props department. Okay. So you said after he does the first one, which was pizza, I didn't mean to cut you off. What happened after he did the... Well, I think he just was... He was a little stiff man and it just was one ring and true. So took a walk and then he came back with a whole different attitude and embraced it. Talk to me about that. What do you mean, took a walk? We took a walk and Vince just explained to him, the man, you got to embrace this. This has to be you. You have to be this character. This is you. But when the red light comes on, you were trying to be something else and we're looking for a more genuine you and have fun with this. And be that. Be the plumber. Be the pizza man. Be the butcher man. Be the gas man. Be the taco man. The garbage. And the garbage, we knew when they did the garbage. All right. So we stopped the truck. You're gonna say, gosh, Bruce, you got him in uniform. That was one of the guys on the truck. So we stopped the truck. We had him do this and all of a sudden the guy says, well, you got to wear the uniform, man. Gave him the hat, gave him the shirt, which didn't quite fit. So just put it over his thing and Dusty went up and down the streets with them hauling trash, just emptying garbage cans when we shot it. That to me was the beauty of what we did. And that's where I had so much fun was I didn't have a whole lot to work with. And here's your opportunity. Let's see. It was also, can I get this done? Right. Can I get, first of all, can I get the garbage truck to stop for me? Right. So the guy gonna listen to me and third last of all, got rid of, are they gonna let me do it? Not only let me do it, but yeah, they're putting them in one of their shirts and hats and everything. 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Go to get soul.com. That's G E T S O U L dot com. Get sold.com and use the code wrestle. That's get sold.com promo code wrestle and you'll get 30% off. You'll be glad you did. You could see how if you were a longtime NWA fan or Dusty Rhodes fan, or maybe Dusty and his extended family and friends and just his fear of influence, that they could see a version of the story where, hey, Vince won. To the Victor, go to the spoils. Now he's going to make Dusty not only bend the knee, but he's going to rub his nose in it a little bit because this is the same relationship that had a man servant for the million dollar man. Right? So I know that you're saying that's not what it was and that wasn't the approach that Vince had, but you could understand why people feel that way. Right? Uneducated people, yes. And I think that, again, the larger audience never saw that because they didn't know who Dusty Rose was before. And to that, I say, so we punished Dusty and humiliated Dusty to the extent of the best year he ever had in his entire wrestling career, dollar wise. And I daresay, exposure wise as well. So how is that, you know, it's like, how is that punishing him? If anything, that's rewarding him for everything that he did and also giving him a bigger name so that he wants to go back there, he will be a much bigger name going back, which eventually he did to WCW. But I, you know, for Dusty, God, it was, it was the most money he ever made. And yeah, I don't see, I don't see the, oh, you evil bastards, you got him over the morning, you've ever been in his life, you made him more money than he ever did in his life. More people recognized him and saw him, he got more action figures, he got more everything. His first action figure, I mean, let's be honest, we're going to talk about all that, but what you said, respectfully, is with the benefit of hindsight. We wouldn't have known he was going to have the best year he ever did of his career when we first see the vignettes, he's just getting going. And some of what you said, just being honest, you said, well, a lot of the audience didn't even know who he was. Well, why was the big pop happening in Boston Garden? Because they got the TV. Look, those, those are the energy. Hang on. Yeah. I'm saying that the WWE audience was larger than the WCW audience. No doubt. No doubt. Yes. When he goes into places where he has been before, sure, he's going to get that pop. And it's, it's somebody knew it, somebody that they haven't seen in the WWF. They know who he is. Yes. I'll say all of them, but a lot of people did not know who he was. Right. And him coming in as a big star. Yes, that definitely made a difference, but he became a lot bigger. No, I'm not. WWE. And I just think that, you know, when you look at everything that he did and what he accomplished, coming in, doing those vignettes, yeah, that was done with the desire to get him his best year in the business for him to be able to be that guy and be that larger than live character. So, yeah, all of that was done to get to that end. There's a means to an end. And that's what we were doing to get there. And I think it stayed another, you know, even another year. I don't know, I don't know the dream could have done another two years, but I do think he could have done another year and really done great. I'll admit this is my first exposure to Dusty Rose. The first time I saw him, he was wearing Dusty. He was wearing the polka dots. So, and I loved it. He was one of my favorite characters. I liked the character. I liked him persona. I thought he was entertaining. I had not seen the other stuff. So I was a fan of it. So it worked for me, but I don't think these vignettes worked for everyone. There's a little bit of controversy about the plumber one. I guess there was, I guess we'll call it, Pico Matter in the toilet scene. And I guess my, you mentioned earlier that was done at Bobby's house. So I want to ask you now, was that, since you've admitted you were the prop guy, was that working shit or was that shoot shit first? That was some of Florida's finest BBQ. But when it actually makes air, there's a little bit of a an advertiser boycott. As crazy as this sounds, Blue Ribbon Sausage, as it's reported in the Observer, quote unquote, flipped out. And Blue Ribbon Sausage is actually one you're probably familiar with because Paul Boss used to do commercials for Blue Ribbon Sausage. Tell me about this. What do you remember about this toilet vignette controversy? Oh, it was much to do about nothing. Hey, look, I think because of the time that our shows air, the syndicated shows air in those days. It was Saturday mornings and things and in prime time. And they just, look, we never said what it was. Now we had poo, you know, we had poo poo. Yes, some fine ass barbecue in there. It was good. And, you know, we had cow manure in another one. So the theme was kaka. Yeah, I don't know. It was some people. It was much to do about nothing. There was never enough feedback. There was never enough pushback that Blue Ribbon or anybody else pulled advertising. There was, there was concern of people going, Hey, you know, I don't know if we want to be showing a toilet bowl that looks to be full of kaka in the morning on television. Kids are watching. But it wasn't a major, major thing. It wasn't like, oh, I'll leave that one alone right now. Once he's on the WWF television program, he is almost immediately going to start a feud with the big boss man. He's going to save some poor hapless job guy from getting beat down after the match. And he's going to steal the boss man's cap and night stick in the process. It's a pretty set up for his very first WWF feud. And it does feel like boss man is maybe an obvious choice for a first opponent because he was actually the real life big Bubba Rogers was an enhancement guy doing jobs on the Atlanta TV on the old super station. When all of a sudden Dusty saw something in this guy when he took Kelly slingshot suplex and thought, Hey, let's make him a heavy for Jim Cornette in the midnight express. And of course it got over so well that he had opportunities in New York to work with Paul Kogan. And now Dusty follows. Why was boss man the right choice for the first opponent and what was their relationship like at that point? Well, I think boss man is a logical choice just from the characters and being able to take the common man, the American dream and be able to lash out at a guy that uses his badge, his power and beats up other people and is a bully. And Dusty's looking at it as, Hey, bully me. I'm just a common man. Come on and bully me. You ain't going to bully the common man. You ain't going to bully me and I'm going to step up and fight for him. So it was a nice little easy thing. And I think that the fact that they had chemistry, which they definitely did from before. Yeah, plays into it as well. We know that this feud is going to really work. And it's also going to allow us to introduce really for the first time Juanita right. And we know her better as Sapphire. And I think at the time Juanita is 55. Is Dusty like 44 here? Does that make sense to you? Does that sound right? I don't even know. Yeah, he would have. Yeah, that's right. He would have been born in 45. So he's 44 here. So Sapphire is obviously an African American lady and 11 years just senior, but she actually had a little wrestling background once upon a time too, right? Yeah, she worked in Kansas City and in that area is an extra as like something white cloud or Native American deal. Yeah, it's written in the observer and I don't know if this is true or not, but again, the timeline is 1989. And when Sapphire makes her television debut, Dave Meltzer according to the observer, he would write that, well, originally she was brought in to manage Zeus. Was there anything to that or is that just a total bullshit rumor? It is like everything else in the observer totally made up, never even remotely discussed in no way, shape or form was only being brought in for Dusty when we were looking for a common woman to do a spot and uh someone knowing Juanita from Kansas City. Who was someone? Do you recall? Who was the question? Terry Garber. Okay, got it. So Terry knew Juanita and she comes in. What did Dusty think of being paired with Sapphire? Did he get it? Was he on board or did it take some convincing? I think he loved it at first. It was not looking. It was supposed to be a one off. Okay. But she, man, you know, Juanita just could steal the crowd's heart. So they saw that, they felt that and thought, oh my god, what if we had heard every TV and then what if we put her on the road with him and all the live events and the audience ate it up, man, they loved her. Can you take a look at that 1989 WWF roster? You know, you've got a lot of talent on there, but typically whenever you have an African American talent, you know, they're you and far between you had Zeus, he's a heel, you had slick, he's a heel, you had bad news, brown, he's a heel, you had Coco beware, he's not a heel, but not maybe not to the level of a star that a dusty Rhodes is. But we know that so many members of the African American community who watch wrestling, man, they love Dusty. Like I can't tell you how many times. Yeah, absolutely. So it made sense to me that he would have an African American valet. If you know that, hey man, this guy's really over in the African American community. You need a way to have some sort of representation for that for Dusty visually here, right? Well, I think it was nice that she was. Sure. We were really, we were really looking for the right fit and one need to happen to be African American. Right. And it wasn't, oh, we need to have an African American put him in there. That wasn't, you know, it's never been the case. She happened to be African American, happened to be a talent and happened to be someone that fit this role and played it to the hill. And, you know, to this day, people still talk about sweet sapphire. And it was, it was real because she, man, she was living her dream, just absolutely living her dream doing this. And it was, as an audience member, you felt it and you loved it. Yeah. It's pretty cool too that this is happening in 89. I do want to ask you, you know, a little bit about the whole sapphire thing. There's a pretty famous story that I think came out in a shoot interview with Dusty years later where Juanita was getting paid and just didn't cash the checks for an extended period of time. Did you hear that story? Oh, yeah. Well, can you, can you relay that to us? She just didn't know what to do with the checks. She was getting all these checks and didn't know what to do with them and told us, what do you do with the checks? You put them in the bank, you cash them, you put them in the bank and then you buy things and you can't out of phone with them. And you put that on what is called a credit card. No. But yeah, Dusty had to tell her, cash that. And she just, she didn't know what to do. She'd always been paid cash and she, she didn't know what to do with the checks. According to the rumor in innuendo, Bruce, that Juanita in real life was a member of the WFIA. Yeah. It also included you and your brother, Tom. We've never talked about the WFIA before. Wrestling fans, International Association. Garda Stagg still does stuff with the pro wrestling hall of fame and cauliflower alley club and everything. Yeah. Remember all of them. So let's talk a little bit about the way she debuts. We just saw a great shot of her sitting in the crowd and this is an era where we see a lot of different characters debut from sitting in the crowd. We saw Hillbilly Jim do this back in 84. Jake the Snake's wife, Cheryl Roberts did this in 88. We had both Sapphire and earthquake in 1989. Was Vince a big fan of this? Were you or is this a Pat Patterson idea? Pulling fans? It's good lore, man. You can go back to the 1930s and picking people out of the crowd and making them stars. It's a, it's a good way to debut somebody and especially if you have the time to, so back in the day when you did your TV every Friday or every Saturday or whatever it is, you had a lot of the same people in the audience. And if you can get one of those people to integrate into that audience so that everybody in that audience kind of knows they're a regular man. They're a little bit larger than life. They're a little bit louder. They're a little bit showier. And um, so that when they actually take that next step to being in the ring and then even more so it's like one of It can happen to me. It can happen to me. I just got to be there. I got to be louder. I got to dress wilder. I got to do more. I got you. They're gonna buy that's me. I'm gonna be a wrestler one day because I'm gonna buy my ticket. I'm gonna be right there in the front row and I'm gonna come a star by God. I love that. Did you grow up in the 80s or 90s? Do you and your friends still talk in movie quotes like it's your own secret language? Then buddy grab a drink and let's get ready to rewind. I'm talking about the hilarious podcast be kind. Let's rewind. Think of it as your weekly nostalgia fix for all things tv, movies, music and video games from the greatest decades ever. Every friday the boys crack open a few cold ones and dive deep into the pop culture moments that made us who we are. But big laughs, bold opinions and the occasional. Does that really happen? Each week they'll hit you with segments like booze of the week. Boring ass facts. Shit stuck in my head. And the very popular norm mcdonald clip of the week. Because no one told the joke quite like norm did. From back to the future to the 40 year old virgin from tommy boy to south park in the simpsons. Be kind. Let's rewind is your time machine to simpler days. Be sure to subscribe to their youtube page at be kind. Let's rewind. And you can engage with their show on instagram x and discord. I'm telling you if you love 80s and 90s nostalgia, this is the show for you. Check it out. Be kind. Let's rewind. By the way, this ad was paid for by jbl. So let's talk about one of the biggest feuds that dusty has on the wwf and one I absolutely loved as a kid. I'm talking about the macho king randy savage. Of course, he had queen sherry martel along with him. And we know on the other side, it's going to be dusty and sapphire. It is a great feud between dusty and randy, but they don't get a lot of pay per view time. It does eventually happen at wrestlemania six, but it's more of a mixed tag and really it's largely built around. Hey, what's miss elizabeth going to do? But I know that these are two of the more iconic characters in all of wrestling history, not just the 80s or even 1990. Randy savage and dusty roads. How different was their approach to wrestling? We've heard that randy was very meticulous and wanted to have everything mapped out. It feels like dusty was maybe a little more old school. Let's listen to the crowd. What was real? Well, what was real is is that randy had a great deal of respect for dusty and felt that their first time together Randy, Randy loved the idea of being in the ring with dusty and and love dusty. So a lot of deference was given to dusty and So I'll give you an example of when I got involved and it was It was a mixed tag with sherry and savage against dusty and sapphire with me and elizabeth in the corners And we built the whole match around essentially dusty standing in the middle of the ring and randy and I just feeding in for everything Um, he would literally stand in the middle of the ring with the elbow. Oh Come get it And wherever you were you ran and just ran head first right into that damn elbow Because that's what you did And we had so much fun Doing this The matches were last we came back laughing and joking every night and and then Pat Patterson saw the match We were doing a double shot in canada and we were we do this shot at noon And then we're gonna go do the seven o'clock shot and so we ride with pat randy and I rode with pat and That's like I tell you It's stuck And randy and are Well, I was fucking great man. We've been doing that every night Was the was the roof off the joint. I love it It's Randy you are a former wwf champion This fucking guy come in here He bumping you here bumping you there you fly everywhere you do brother lock What the fuck Nobody touches you But in this he gets one One that's it That's it You gave him everything my god We're gonna we get to go to have a match with you and dust you can't have the match you gave him two matches And So by the time we finish that trip Randy and I are so depressed and discouraged It's like ah Was it really that bad? and So we talk with pat a little bit and we Kind of come up with a different match and then randy and I go off Randy and I come up with a with a different different layout theme for the match per se and so We went back to pat and we threw it by pat I love it now that it's making everybody a star you take care of him But you take care of you you have to take care of you All right. Yeah, fuck it. Thanks. Randy and I are on looking boat up And we were in Toronto that night We're all bowed up and we're ready to go and we get there and going to go in and tell dusty and walk in the dressing room and Go randy goes up and first green green Need to talk to you So we go in the shower And we're sitting there and dusty's guys back against the wall back up against the shower and uh He's a listen brother. There's gonna be some changes around here tonight. We're gonna start tonight We're not gonna do the same bullshit match we've been doing every night now We're gonna change it up. We got some things we're gonna change go ahead brother love tell them what we're gonna do What I thought you had this you can walk in here First name my two last name king. Yeah Oh go ahead big boy Now dream looks at me and eyes all big and I lay out the match And give them the whole match Dreams just standing there staring at us back against the wall And uh savage like well, that's it You good with that Dreams just looks at both of them. You know Right here right now and there's him kind of like somebody Calling babe Ruth into the shower and saying babe tonight Here's how I want you to hit the ball So I'm just well babe this we're doing tonight And I'm standing there dusty going I'll see you in the ring only once but I'll see you in the ring And uh, yeah, it was interesting I think that would have been june of 1990 when that happens. You guys had a string of you had you had What was the double shot? What was the town that that day you have that? Uh, let me look and see if I can find it. I know that it was close In canada in june of 1990 you did new brunswick And then the next day you did Kitchener, ohio and then london ontario and then ottawa ontario Back in may you did one in winnipeg manitoba Yeah, I can't find the the one with the double shot, but that does look like You know it would have been like june of 90 and you were doing those back to back We had a blast doing a maritime's run in that in that Little deal too, but but that was That kind of summed up all their stuff and again We had so much fun working together and then after we got the match laid out good Then we did the rib with um, I can't get behind him and I can't hit him and kody now owes me 12,000 Plus interest dollars Well, no, it's 12,500. That's with the interest, but it's a crew. It's more by the time he listens to this Oh by the time he listens to this without a doubt. Yeah, it was $5,000 then Yeah Oh, it's a lot more now with late fees Oh, I say look man. He's a friend so i'm trying not to Brother right I got you. Yeah. Yeah, but still there's got to be Just inflation Sure Is Is got it up to 12,500 something like that. You know what? Let's just go ahead We want to give kody the factual numbers, you know, we don't want to bullshit him here We want to give him the real data And we know that was 1990 and and we know that the year is is 2025. Yeah, so it's 12,425 and 40 cents Um, so hopefully maybe he could settle up by the end of the year. Stay tuned. We'll see how that goes Please I mean, you know, it's Friendly bet but come on I won Well, yeah, maybe he could give you a watch this time. Yeah, we'll see Hey, I want to ask, you know, we know that he created starcade back when he was genius and And that really was the precursor for wrestlemania Uh that event of course happened in november of 83 And then by march of 85 wrestlemania is going to change the wrestling world forever When dusty finds himself at the sky dome in toronto And he's working with randy savage at his very first wrestlemania Did that feel like a big deal to dusty like it does to every other performer their first wrestlemania or for the dream? Was it just another day at the office? Yes, I think it was a big deal for dusty I think it was a huge deal for dusty because it was wrestlemania and and he was in a feature match with the former wwe champion and um, yeah I think it was a huge deal for dream The guys at true classic started with a simple mission to bring premium comfortable clothing to the masses Because looking and feeling great shouldn't come with a designer price tag and clearly people agree With over 25 million shirts sold to five million customers and more than 200,000 five star reviews True classic has become a staple in closets everywhere But this brand isn't just about fabric or fit. 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No bullshit Just a clean effortless fit that actually works for real life So skip the guesswork and the overpriced designer stuff give comfort give confidence give true classic You can find them on amazon at target cosco and even sam's club or for the best deals head on over to true classic dot com slash st w to grab the perfect gift for everyone on your list That's true classic dot com slash st w What about uh, and I know this is not exactly the same thing I mean he had been all over national television for a long time and And with the you know the the tbs turner station and all that But to be in prime time or not necessarily prime time but on broadcast cable saturday night's main event We know that you know he had a couple of appearances there one with the boss man one with rick rude Did those feel like big show days to dusty could you see him hit another gear or was his approach any different to an nbc show versus A syndicated show I do think he had a different approach, but I also think that you know dusty was a professional and dusty was very Committed to his public persona and his public image So if dusty has an opportunity to be on a big stage, he's going to make the most of it He knows he knows what that means And that's where ego comes in and that's a good part of ego is that with his ego. He never wanted to see People to see him less than right So let's talk a little bit about just the day to day working in the w wf I know that you know through the years like a guy like john sena Once upon a time aren't agent aren't anderson was the agent for all of his matches And I think in more recent years, maybe it's been michael haze or who knows but I know that guys have their favorites Did dusty have a particular agent or did he always just work with you or what was that process like because it is different If you've been the promoter or you've been the booker like I'm sure he felt like or maybe people would have been uncomfortable with that dynamic with him So how was that handled by different time different place? you know you Then was nothing like like then was then was nothing like it was in 2001 So it was just different you had whoever the agent was assigned to That night's events and the finishes all still came from vince and we all still You know sat there at the at the house and told the agents what the finishes were but they weren't Anything extraordinary usually unless it was for a return to come back into the market the next time So whoever was assigned to that event that was your agent that was that was who you worked with and I think dusty worked Well with everybody well there was anybody he didn't work well with in that regard it was uh if anything it was Just a peer-to-peer deal where They knew dusty and known dusty and respected him and worked well with it Years later you've told us the stories here on the show that whenever you or vince would have some sort of a creative writers block And you'd say man we need to finish for this. What should we do? Someone inevitably might say something like hey call dusty whether he was with wcw or he was with cna So i'm wondering when he's working with you guys in the wwf that he ever say Hey, uh, I like your finish, but what about or what if did he interject ideas and because it was dusty and You knew his track record of success. It was received differently or was that not the case back I think dusty was kind of minded as peas and queues here and I think dusty in a lot of respects Uh kept to himself on those on those things he did what he was asked to do if he had If he had an idea or if he had an issue he would go he would go to vince say hey, what about this? um I don't I don't know that that happened a whole lot. I think that's who was was trying to get along making sure that everybody was Comfortable with him him comfortable with everybody So it uh It is what it is and I don't think that the dream I don't really volunteered that much Right because I think he he was told you know, hey dusty you're coming in as a talent. We're not looking for you for you to Helping this regard right now, but they just wanted to watch him want to see how how he did Did he go get his nose and other things? And he pretty much kept to himself now with with me On the road we talked about all that shit. Yeah, but it was it was Not like talking to one of the boys and telling them one of the boys what should or shouldn't happen He was telling me because he knew that well that was my role in some regards on the tv side and would Would think okay and I Man, I would pepper him for shit I would ask him things. I wanted to hear what his opinion was and vince did too Do you remember in that era? I'm so i'm saying 89 90 Was there an idea that we fans saw play out on tv? That may have actually even though maybe you're the one who pitched it to vince Maybe it was originally dusty's idea and then you would vince worked on it together and and what we saw is what we saw But was there an idea an angle a storyline a match or something like that that really was dusty's brainchild Not nothing off the top of my head and and I say that again because dusty pretty much Minded is peas and cues. Yeah, and didn't didn't feel that without the blessing and without the hey dream You're the guy that He should keep his his mouth closed So I think he respected that and he He didn't didn't say a whole lot I do want to ask you, you know, we talked about whether any guys in the locker room who maybe had hard feelings about Potentially working with dusty let's go the other direction Were there any young guys who grew up watching dusty and were big fans and they were sort of enamored with him and just Wanted a buddy up and sitting through his learning tree Brother love There you go. I love that answer. Um You know, I I think boss man Yeah, I think the boss man was really happy to have dusty there and like dusty a lot and he learned an awful lot from dusty and dusty helped boss man Be a great big man And I think that boss man without a doubt definitely went to him and And would listen to him. Um You know, he wasn't there a whole a whole Long time, but I think taker You know would would ask or leave, you know, listen and just get Look dusty dusty helped me with taker In the very very beginning before you know, dusty was on his way out um But he helped me with Make him different, you know, keep him different keep him unique. Don't let him do all of his stuff Every single match, you know, the guys had their tv matches, which was Exact same match every time they worked on tv. There was no variance. There was no change We changed all the taker stuff. You didn't see the same tv match all the time and and I would uh You know Write down everything that we did in every match and try not to repeat All of it, you know, there were certain things obviously the finish was the finish But we tried to go into it in different ways. We didn't do old school every tv. We didn't do the big flying Uh clothesline every week. We didn't we changed it up So that when you saw undertake you didn't just see one match And believe it or not, that was that was a lot of of dusty just in general and um I think he would I think he would give in general feedback That you could apply to anybody and and and where it fits All right, so imagine you wake up tomorrow and rick flares your father-in-law Let me just tell you it's not as exciting as you may imagine But for real, let me just go ahead and throw out there. What do you get the guy who has everything? You gotta have something that's emotional because it's not like you're gonna be able to go buy something He doesn't already have or want like anything he wants. He's already got and I guarantee you know somebody like that in your life But what's the one thing they can't buy and that's more time with their family? 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We see someone ascending her these expensive gifts Naturally, of course, as you may imagine this turns out to be the million dollar man. Ted debi assi He's gonna try to seduce sweet sapphire with the lure of some money and She's on tv with Ted debi assi almost as like his second manager along with virgil But that only lasts for one tv taping and then she finishes up Was the story with her done? Was it just winding down with dusty that she get tired of the road or What did happen with sapphire? Why did that come to an end? Comin a yeah, yeah, that was a combination of her health and the story he'd kind of Wound down but also her health she couldn't be on the road man Like everybody else and she was having a hard time on the road It just takes its toll after a while and this was the way to be able to write the character off tv and You were a nice little send-off But she was she was getting a little tired and haggard on the road man. That's that empané and easy Yeah, dude that road was uh, I mean listen everybody loves performing and being in the front of the fans and doing all that it's the Five a.m. Wake up calls or maybe earlier in five a.m. Flights and the long drives it really adds up Let's talk about you know This era because around the same time that we start winding things down with sapphire and the million dollar man We're going to set up obviously a feud with the million dollar man and dusty roads And he actually gives his notice to the company in november of 1990 Um, we know that he's going to finish up at the royal rumble in 1991 So a couple of months away But i'm curious Why do you think he was he was giving notice? We know he's going to go back down the wcw He's going to be replacing replacing ollie anderson as their booker Under jim herds tutelage. They had installed ollie anderson and Now apparently as ollie tells the story nothing He could get approved by jim heard as far as what the creative decisions were for sting as the new champion So he just wrote down black scorpion Really having no idea where that was or whatever but heard greenlit it and we know it was a debacle No one wanted to be the black scorpion. It wound up being rick flair. It went nowhere fast So they're frustrated with that. So ollie's going to be out. They're looking for a booker and of all people It's dusty two years after he left How long do you think they had been talking was he ready to come off the road or did he just really want a book? I guess the question is Does he ever present that? To vents because you said a little earlier that hey, we can get there where you could help be part of creative here But first let's start here and get all we can out of the creative Or the the entering career before we dabble in creative Take us back to november 90 when he's giving his his notice here Dusty wanted to be the boss It's that simple dusty wanted to be the boss dusty wanted to To have total control and he knew that he would not get that in wwe dusty knew that the The hierarchy it wasn't going to change but he knew that at wcw he had the opportunity once again to be the all in control boss and That was that was his desire. That's what he wanted to do and he knew he wasn't going to get to do that here So it was that simple. He had an opportunity and he went back to benston told him he had that opportunity and bence told him Congratulations go do what you want to do It was just that cut and dry with him and bence. It really was go do it. Yes Look, there was a lot of mutual respect there Right, dusty and benston want to hold him back for fear of I don't want to I don't want to hold him back and keep him here And then him harbor resentment the whole time he's here thinking that oh man I could have I could have done this or I could have done that so It just it was the right thing to do Let's talk a little bit about You know as we're we're talking about wanting to be the boss and I know that that was clearly Paramount for dusty that's clear if you've read interviews or read his book or whatever But when we think about The time frame this is november of 1990 and I don't know I wasn't there But I think I've read and heard through the years that once warrior became the champion in april of 1990 Houses were down. It wasn't drawing as well as hogan on top And it felt like some of the momentum was slipping Would it also be fair to say that dusty had seen his payoff shrink In those prior six months leading up to november of 1990 were the payoffs smaller under the warrior regime? I think in general yes, but Also during that time, you know dusty was the other half of those. I don't know how many cards Dusty was on of warrior cards where you know dusty was on with him headlining you know and again, don't I love vergeal to death love the dream to death and it's our idiosyncrasies that just kind of Get people to love your hate you a lot of times and Dusty every night We would be on the road and and we would be somewhere and you would get the Oh last time I was here hogan with him. They we we've already at least doubled that We'd go to the curtain look out and go folks. He looking at right. It's terrible. Um I think that it had waned a little bit. I think that we Kind of jumped the shark with with dusty and randy that whole scenario In that, you know, we we got a lot more out of it than We probably deserved to get out of it. It was just time to move on Right in that regard and I think dusty's desire to go elsewhere You know later on in that but it wasn't Um dusty's days of headlining the card and in drawing. I think they were over right but him being a part of a package and being The american dream the common man and doing all of that I did not think was over and I thought that that was was still all there It could have been a huge huge deal I know cody's attitude is uh, he's never heard. He's never injured. He's never gonna complain But dusty by this point. He had taken a lot of bumps for a long time I mean, he's been in the ring since the 60s now. We're into 1990 Was he beat up? How was he physically? You may have been beat up. I don't know that he sold all that. Yeah His fleet by this would act up from time to time when he was on in long flight Because I can't walk around my fleet by this um but I think I I'm sure the total the toll of Running as hard as we ran in those days traveling every day on a different flight going from town to town and just working every night and getting in late getting up early and going to the next town and finishing up in chicago flying to alaska. Uh, it it just It takes it's whole it takes it's whole no matter how old you are In dream and already had an entire career of doing that. Yes, and it was Man, it just starts to get to the point where you need to slow down and I think Dream felt built that need you got to scratch that itch And he wanted to be the boss Let's talk about dustin road's here for a minute I think he gets a try out at a dark match Against black bart and san Antonio in late april of 1990 and he works a lot of house shows But he's actually going to appear on television at a taping in springfield, illinois It's filmed on october 9th 1990 and this is the 10 minute challenge Where it's dustin roads and ted db. I see that starts the feud that ultimately is gonna Finish up dusty in the wwf I like that 10 minute challenge and it is interesting to think Hey, what if Dusty had stayed around and been a part of the wwf behind the scenes creatively But the benefit of hindsight, what do you think dustin's career may have looked like? Had dusty not went to atlanta to help run wcw and instead Maybe joined you and pat and ventz Booking the territory here for the wwf would dustin's career have looked any differently in your opinion Yeah, I don't think it would have been good I don't think it would have been good because if it was his father booking him I'm not sure that the dream could have been as objective right and Yeah, not begrudging that that's just the reality of it And that that's his son son's talented and it's not a discount on dustin because dustin was talented and Deserved that but I think dustin had to make it on his own first You know what i'm saying? Hey, I know you said earlier that you know dusty was kind of minding his p's and q's and he wasn't necessarily pitching ideas for himself But what about for dustin do you remember him advocating for dustin? You got to give this kid a chance or something like that Not not like you would think he would okay. He did say you got to give him a chance give him a chance just let him Let his talent speak for itself I got you and we did so dusty dusty recognize that also, but I think that Couldn't have helped himself if he were in control To push push dustin to the moon and do everything that he could to make dustin um The man whether he deserved it or not Again that 10 minute challenge happens in uh, october We know in november's survivor series is going to be here and of course dusty has a survivor series team dustin's not on it But really that match almost serves as a backdrop for Ted db i'll see in the million dollar man helping introduce the undertaker It's a fun little footnote in history That one of the biggest stars of the 1980s dusty rose was standing across the ring from What's going to become one of the biggest stars of the 1990s in 2000 the undertaker? And I love that somehow in the middle of all of that. Of course, you're there too walking the undertaker to the ring this has to be uh A special moment in your life and certainly in the undertaker, right? Oh put the boost of dusty outside the ring and kicking to get you that out of you Gone he's not eliminated get him gone. Yeah, that was it was Just the kind of a rebirth and any a birthing in a rebirth all in one In a funeral all together Because this was you know, this was dusty's really last last big match in WWE and then he he was gone But yeah, it was it was great I think that dusty did a good job of helping to get the undertaker over And spotlight him the best way that he could in a debut match That's a big deal kick dusty rose ass Absolutely, it's a big deal to kick dusty rose ass and not to correct you but he does have one more pay-per-view. That's january 1991 That's the tag match with dusty and dustin He was gone by then Yes, that's what I wanted to ask you about because there's this narrative out there and you would know better than anybody else That allegedly according to the rumor in innuendo after he puts in notice with vince Even though he works for the wwf dusty is sort of going to be booking long distance for wcw until he can actually get down there He's using bary windham as sort of the middleman to go in between Is that the way you remember hearing it that a guy in your locker room is helping book the competition and vince was cool with it He wasn't in the line but by that time dusty wasn't making you know a lot of live events He made I know he made the rumble and all of that But he was you know, it was pretty much already gone He made a few other dates But for the most part he was spending his time at the omni hotel in Atlanta and and working out of there So we knew that What's he gonna do? We had guys under contract. Nope. Look It was It it was just business at that point in time And dusty knew better than to be in there and and try and recruiting guys and things without nature. So It worked we should mention that Dusty only worked 11 matches in the month of december for the wwf compared to 17 For november but only one match in january of 91 and it is the royal rumble 1991 It's ted db. I see in virgil Against dust and roads and the real life virgil dusty roads. That's at the miami arena in miami florida He's gonna finish up here, but he gave notice back in november I assume it was important for dusty. I mean he knew the the landscape if he's gonna leave He's got to leave the right way Sticking around to sort of do the honors at royal rumble 91 Is that a vince call or something that dusty would have suggested if you had to guess Well, I I think it was just a mutual agreement of all right We're gonna let you out of your deal. When do you want to go? All right You want to go in january? Can we just get Get one day we can tie this all up at the royal rumble and you're gone, but we'll stop booking you December and then just have you come back for the rumble and make everything whole so It wasn't like Wasn't a big deal You know, I mean, but it was what makes sense here. How can we make this make sense here? And finish you up the right way I want to ask and that was a so able to let you out of your contract two years early yeah, and This what you want to do so go do it. Can you help us out here and There's no reason not to do it. No problem Cold mornings holiday plans. This is when we need our wardrobes to just work That's why Bruce and I are all about quints. 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I've got some cousins who are rocking it Everybody I know who gets something from quince is shocked at the quality It feels like it should cost a whole lot more They assume it does until they go stock up and they're like damn. I need to order some more Everybody's in love with quince and you will be too get your wardrobe sorted and your gift list handled with quince Don't wait. Go to quince.com slash wrestle for free shipping on your order and 365 days returns Now even available in canada too. That's q ince.com slash wrestle free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash wrestle It's interesting that vince did that not only for dusty but for rick too, you know when when he's When rick asks for his release No problem vince grants it just needs you to put mr. Perfect over on your way out and again, no problem I think it's cool to Mutual respect and appreciation that vince had for both flair and dusty Do you think that's born from all that competition in the mid 80s when it was nwa and wwf or just Respect for their accomplishments within the industry as a whole Yeah, I think it's all the above I think that when you you look at it and you go everything that they've done and the way that they had conducted their business with him that It was the right thing to do and it didn't it wasn't something that was going to destroy our business on this side where if Dusty road shows up there rick flair shows up there. Oh my god, you know shut the doors And knowing that they were unhappy here and wanted to be somewhere else. It's like all right make that happen You don't want unhappy people here I wanted to ask you about the way dusty was presenting himself towards the end of the wwf run We see less and less of the polka dots and we even saw like, you know the uh The leather duster thing or whatever you have the top hat with the chicken claw and the whole thing It does feel like it's a bit of a pivot from the polka dot presentation Do you think that was dusty getting ready for his wcw presentation or did he just think hey, let's keep it Let's freshen it up. They've seen me in the polka dots long enough for something else Dusty want to get away from the polka dots. Yeah, it's gonna be the most serious kick ass. That's the rose I'm gonna have our mom still gonna do the polka dots I'm gonna be red. Okay He still had polka dots It was just pure I got you wrote Now got eagle claw my thing We all call it the chicken claw in his little hat You know, there's gonna be a kick at they know i'm serious because i'm all in black and He did it and then This is like no no no man get back to the polka dots So later in his life We know that dusty repeatedly stressed that he did not want to be remembered as the polka dot guy I guess maybe understandably so it only represented I don't know a little less than two years of an incredible decades long career but Since his passing almost in shorthand for The visual language of dusty roads in the wwe the polka dots have become synonymous Is that a mixed emotion? Do you think for dusty's legacy? How do you think dusty was feel about that now? Well, it was dusty roads who pulled out a polka dot handkerchief and it's all the fame speech. That's true so, you know dusty Dusty embraced it dusty knew what it was and and he was able to Enjoy it, I think at the end and just kind of take it for what it was and I don't good bad or indifferent. I think that dusty at the end of the day Got it enjoyed it and And went from there, but you know, he always would say he goes. Yeah, he goes Poked out some best year of my life money wise I do want to ask you about when wcw goes under You know, he's going to be looking for hey, what's next? He does start that turnbuckle championship wrestling We talked about earlier and we know he did take a job with uh, jeff jarrett's t and a for a bit Oh It's given the way everything went before. Why don't you think he and vent's got back together sooner? I mean, I know eventually he does join the wwe and he's working with fcw in the early days of the performance center and Now it feels like the entire roster of top guys in the wwe on some level Have dusty roads fingerprints on them through either fcw or the early days of the pc His influence is incredible even by modern standards and i'm saying just set kodi aside Just the rest of the roster considers themselves quote-unquote Dusty's kids But he didn't immediately come here after wcw. No, why do you think that was? didn't want to He didn't want to or vinston wanted to Well, look he didn't want to until dusty um again sent another letter sent his book and actively Came out again. Look dusty. He'd also made clear To those of us that would listen that he wanted one thing he wanted to be vince And that job wasn't open So It was Am I gonna go after a guy who's just gonna tell me I want your job? And we've heard it several times before he wants to come here and he wants to help and be a part of the team Would love to have would love to entertain that And so he sent a letter sent letter to stuff along with his book and uh sent letter to vince And we were asked what do you think? I said I loved having part of the team Then came in and interviewed and uh Made him part of the creative team then I think the travel there just kind of got to him a little too much as well and when fcw and The pc and all that opened up man. That was a great opportunity for him to go down and pass on His knowledge of of helping people You know the things that dusty taught in the pc were not just Something you can apply to to wrestling It was he was teaching them how to have confidence in yourself He was teaching them how to take A negative and make a positive out of it. He was teaching them life lessons in general It would help whether you were trying to become an accountant or a lawyer or a football player or A car washer whatever it was he was teaching them life lessons and people would would be very self-conscious about their bodies and what have you and Not want to I don't know. I want to have takes a shirt off and everything for promos or Do anything like that and dusty would would come in and he would wear his little skimpy under drunks and A pair of tennis shoes and that's all he would wear all day To let people look at me. I'm an old man I ain't ain't got the prettiest body in the world But you know what you notice me And It's just that simple little thing here. Here's to college kid coming Here's this old man out of shape with a big splotch and Head and not the prettiest guy in the whole wide world. But yet he is so comfortable in his own skin Look at me. I worked so hard and I looked like this and all this stuff that If you don't have confidence And you look at him and go god, he's got he loses confidence Then that's all right um That helps dusty would give you life lessons like that dusty would would get in and And let you talk for five minutes fall asleep Wake up. Oh, did you say something? Because you never got my attention to wake me up and it it would He was a great teacher. He had a different approach to teaching And it was a real life approach that Those that got it. I think you know came really far and you look at Seth and Becky prime examples Roman prime examples of The teachings of dusty roads and and becoming comfortable in yourself In creating a persona larger than life that is nothing more than you And making people believe why you are more special than everybody else And everybody is in their own mind can go through and you can Take all your negatives and take all your positives and when you put them together turn all of it into a positive And it's just how you want to look at it The glass half empty half full How do you how would you like to have it? Well, I'd rather have it half full at least I guess something So His teachings were were simplistic like that And it was a real life preparing them for life Dusty signs the legends deal with the wwe in 2005. That's around the same time. We got the dusty dmed set 2007 he becomes a member of the wwe hall of fame And a lot of people feel like that may have been cody rhodes are coming out party Because he's a third party talk to us about that well, no, you know This was an opportunity and and dusty had even even said that you know, you gon see You won't see cody And Dusty knew that it was cody's coming out party And I think that dustin kind of felt like hey, man, I've had my time in the In the limelight let him go and cody Went out and solidified his position for the rest of his life um, didn't come immediately but man, you saw it that day and and Vence and I looked at each other and the one yeah That's the guy And then afterwards then selling me it was it was amazing job. It was amazing Because it was there wasn't a platform for cody on the television show To see that he didn't have the opportunity to cut promos and he was talking about his dad doesn't get more heart felt Then talking about your dad and putting him in a hall of fame And that was emotional that was real that was that was good stuff How proud do you think dusty would have been to see cody asked for his release and bet on himself and Go reinvent himself and come back and I mean it's incredible run. He's been on now What do you think dusty would think about that? Well, obviously, I think dusty would be a proud proud papa talking about my boy cody left it all left it all to say you know what i'm gonna make it all And I think he would be extremely proud of that and then happy For dusty happy. I'm gonna refer cody and happy for the company. I think that It I've toyed with this a lot of I've talked about Would cody have done it if his dad were alive and would dusty have Advised him to do it And there is I have both sides of the argument But I leaned toward I think dusty would have said to him If you're unhappy And you want to bet on yourself Then go do it But you better make sure that you succeed You you better you better know what the hell you're doing And in that regard, I think dusty probably would have encouraged cody to To leave and do what he did Go reinvent yourself make make them have to have you So I I think it was the right decision It worked out It was an incredible story that the roads family is uh is leaving professional wrestling what a legacy they have And I still think the legacy of dusty roads is continuing to be written just based on the success of the dusty's kids and the wwe performance center, but Cody roads doing his thing dustin doing his thing when you think about As far as influential people in pro wrestling if you framed them out rush more that way Is it even debatable that dusty deserves a spot? I do think dusty deserves a spot. I think dusty deserves a spot for his His mind but also Look his charisma and drawing power when you look at the guys that could go in headline Houston Chicago New York San Francisco Tokyo Honolulu And all points in between Not just be tied to one territory or one place was a star beyond boundaries And was able to draw in all of those places based on his reputation in his name alone There were so few of those guys that could do that There was andre andre was an attraction could come in and do that superstar billy grand Was able to do that Me and mascaras Was another one that was able to go all over the world and headline based on the reputation Alone there weren't a whole lot of them that could do that in those days Dusty could Dusty was a bona fide attraction Long before you know even long before he got the book He was a bona fide attraction so that that's That's a different level And dusty was able to to carry that off and and do it well This message is sponsored by rakeon if you're looking for a holiday gift I've been using rakeon's essential open earbuds and honestly, they're so dang good I love that I can play my music or my podcast, but still hear what's going on around me It's perfect for my wife at the gym or when we're out walking the dogs and right now You can get up to 20 off for the holidays. 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You're gonna love how lightweight they are I really like the multi point connection You can connect to multiple devices and switch seamlessly without the hassle Have I bragged on the battery life? You got eight hours in the earbuds, but another 36 hours in the case We're talking days of non-stop listening the essential open earbuds are here for the holiday season and they're selling fast Rakeon audio products are up to 20% off this holiday season. So go to buy rakeon.com wrestle open to save on rakeon audio products site-wide Order by december 15th and you will guarantee delivery by christmas Because great christmas gifts shouldn't show up late. That's buy rakeon.com slash wrestle open buy rakeon.com slash wrestle open As we start to wind things down, can you tell us your two favorite dusty road stories? Oh my god Well, I think everybody's heard the the Muhammad Ali Um, dust is the second most recognizable athlete in the world that can only to Muhammad Ali And the short version of it is is that uh after spending a week of listening to him being the second most recognizable athlete in the entire world second only to Muhammad Ali We got pulled over the jersey turnpike And the state troopers come and shine a light on us ask us if we're wrestlers And there's two ways you could answer that and you never know which one you want to answer with and I said yes And he goes dammit. I knew it And he goes are you brother love? And again two ways to answer that you don't know whether they're fan or foe and uh Luckily said yes. He says god damn. I knew it man. My captain's a huge fan Come please get an autograph format. It will make his night. Yeah, I will be in with him But I'm gonna sign the autograph Shines the light over dusty Says oh, are you a wrestler too? And dusty bows up because now this like four or five six days whatever it is I'm the thickest most recognizable athlete thick and only to Muhammad Ali And are you a wrestler too and he says I'm the American dream dutty roads in the Trooper on the outside of the car on the passenger side Puts his head down and goes. Oh, are you still in that awa thing? And I look at him and I just say Thick and most recognizable athlete in the world I'd brother love motherfucker Yeah, that absolutely absolutely drove him nuts. But the the other one was in uh, Cincinnati and Going to the Hilton hotel there brand new hotel Uh, say dreams and hey man, what are we gonna say? He'll die there that healed over there. I stayed there all the time We get raped So we pull up Go in they everybody here knows me punk and every gonna get ready. I got it all think out And We go to check in and it looks brand spanking new And I asked guys yeah, how how long you guys uh Been here. It was oh because it's like our fourth week like Version I thought you said you guys stay here all the time. Yeah, you got gotta ready Was yeah the other one they just rebuilt it. They rebuilt it the same wall they rebuilt y'all know me American dream dutty road. Yeah and Got it. Oh whatever so now dream and I are gonna go to the movies Get to the room and uh Going dusty's room. We're like looking at the paper and shit turns on the tv Oh, man, I tell them not to do that. They do that every time Tv's got one of those deals, you know, and says The Cincinnati airport Hilton welcomes dusty roads Hey kids Those of you that's seen that in hotel rooms back then it wasn't a thing I Go to my room on my tv Cincinnati airport Hilton welcomes Bruce Pritchard knock on that because for a minute I thought okay I'm thinking this is what's on the tv. It's going, you know in everybody's room the dusty roads is here and dust is going Yeah, man. I tell them don't tell everybody I'm here. They just don't happen to have me they Put up the sign let everybody know dusty roads with him. That says Bruce Pritchard So comes one of the first what's what he will put me in I saw the look on your face When you saw just my name on there I called him I said he listened let everybody know the punk idea too because Because he gets a little down, you know when all the attention goes on me he wants to be very very Attention driven. He needs to put his name up there Bullshit, so yeah, it was uh Those are probably my two favorite Kind of synopsis of who dusty who dusty is and then the very first time that we went in to talk vignettes with him in Florida at the old armory in Tampa and I was balancing my briefcase on my lap And my briefcase fell over and everything went all over the place and dream just sat back and said Don't be intimidated baby. It's just the dream. It's just the dream It's not the fuck but yeah, I love Virgil man. He uh unbelievable performer that I I People asked me one time Listen, when did you get so good at doing dusty roads and and mimicking him? Dude? I was mimicking him when I was eight years old his promos in houston When he would come in and talk about his mama and talk about, you know, jolly old faint nick and I won't be there I'm gonna whip it there if you don't bring me some Some of mark lewans behind that's what I stand a clause. They're gonna bring to me Dreams promos were unfucking believable And I mimicked them then and then just the more I was around him the more I I can't The WrestleMania 9 Uh documentary Went out last year and they came to me And said hey bruce we got this footage from WrestleMania 9 of you guys And I had never seen I don't even remember there being camera crews doing that shit but In conversations with like me and vince and pat. I'm doing dusty as I'm explaining shit That I'm doing dusty the camera and and just different How we let them shoot that stuff then I don't know how that happened, but apparently it did and um Yeah, it was it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool shit It was pretty cool shit to go back and revisit the very first episode of something to wrestle this week I can't thank you guys enough. Please hit the subscribe button and turn on the notifications bell The next time we're live. Yeah, it's down here. It's below If you haven't already go check us out on something to wrestle calm It's really just our youtube, but we just want to make it easy for you to find us But when you go there, you'll see that hey man, there's pictures. There's video. Oh my Oh my this at all. We're gonna see you each and every week right here at something to wrestle calm And listen when we're talking about what's next on the program According to my calendar, we've only got a handful of days left with john sena I think we need to do john sena sooner rather than later. What do you think rick? Fuck on We can do that. Yeah So stay what about what about his brother one sena? Do you can you do it in spanish? Can you do uh? Juan sena We can talk about one man. I can do it in spanish. I can do it in anything You uh, you speak bigger than our producer does and that's saying something that is saying something see See he's got the plumbers at his house now. I'm surprised. He didn't just leave his microphone open so that we get here to I'm looking around what the hell's going on. We have an earthquake. Oh, it's just my plumbers Go lord bless him. Maybe it's maybe it's the spirit of dusty roads Taking care of business and the other in the other room Take care of business funky like a monkey. Tell your friends bruce is back See you next week right here on something to wrestle with Bruce pritchard Yes, baby. Tell all your friends and don't forget Sometimes jimmy jam came along I'd like to thank everybody for getting it to one million views. That's michael haze free bird roads sometimes jimmy jam came along Those were the best days now. They're gone It's been I don't know But free bird road Do do do free bird road That's where I live on free bird road It's down the street From bad street It's free bird road My address is doot. Doot. Doot free bird road. That's the name of this here song This is what happens when you drink too much dream pop from prime See you next week right here on something to wrestle with bruce pritchard rock on Did you put christmas on a credit card? Don't stress out about that extra holiday spending save with conrad.com can help you consolidate all of your high interest rate credit cards Into one much lower monthly payment save with conrad.com has helped families just like yours Save up to 800 a month. You don't need perfect credit or money out of your pocket And did I mention no payments until march? So don't make saving money or resolution next year Make it happen today at save with conrad.com end of all lesson number two one two nine equal housing lender