It is about power. It's about asserting that in certain spaces, at least online, women are not equal human beings. They will always be seen as non-human objects. Anytime they have ways of speaking or voicing things, they will be essentially silenced. They'll be driven out of certain platforms. They'll be made to feel unwelcome. They'll be shamed in lots of ways and humiliated. Welcome back to Galaxy Brain. I am your host, Charlie Worsell. Last week, I offered up a little bit of a rant at the top about Elon Musk and Groc and the chatbots undressing spree. It turns out I'm not done talking about that one. Today's episode is going to be about the ways in which technology has shaped a culture that's been increasingly hostile to women online. And elsewhere, I'm going to be joined by my colleague Sophie Gilbert, who writes extensively about culture and the ways that it talks about and influences and shapes women and our perceptions of women. She's the author of a fantastic book called Girl on Girl, which traces how pop culture has turned a generation of women against themselves. We're going to be talking about the Groc stuff, but also the ways that these tech platforms have this rich history of exposing women. And why it's become so popular to think about women as these non-human objects online, how AI is encouraging this and what women are supposed to do in response. But before we get to Sophie, I want to address the Groc issue head on again. I remain truly incandescently mad about this, about all of it. Here is a sentence that is true. For more than a week, beginning late last month, anyone could go online and use a tool owned and promoted by the world's rich man to modify a picture of basically any person, even a child, especially women, and undress them. At the moment, Elon Musk seems to be not only getting away with this, but reveling in it. Here's where I need to note that XAI says it's prohibited the sexualization of children in its acceptable use policy. A post earlier this month from the X safety team states that the platform removes illegal content, including child sex abuse material, and it works with law enforcement as needed. The company said late last week that it limited image generation with Groc and editing to paying subscribers. Now, this is disturbing in its own right because Musk and XAI are essentially marketing non-consensual sexual images as a paid feature of the platform. But X users have been able to get around even this very low bar of moderation using the edit image button that appears on every image uploaded to the platform, or by going to Groc's standalone app and creating images that way. To be clear, the deluge of people online, anonymous trolls saying, AtGroc put her into a bikini, etc. That's subsided slightly, but on subreddits and on these backwater message boards, I can tell you personally that I've seen creeps, strategizing, and sharing tactics for the best ways to get around these safeguards, and to create realistic pornographic images of women. The problem continues. Musk himself has said that he is quote, not aware of any naked underage images generated by Groc, literally zero. He's talking about images of children. Now, he might not be aware of it, but as my colleague Mateo Wang has shared with me, there are investigators who look at this stuff, who have found Groc generated images on the dark web that clear the bar for child sexual abuse material. It is out there to say nothing of the harassment that's gone on in broad daylight on X with people addressing women and public figures. And so I can't stop thinking about this. Now, there's starting to be a little bit of pressure from governments around the world. Government bodies in the UK, India, and the European Union have said that they're trying to investigate X. Malaysia and Indonesia have blocked access to Groc. In the US, though, the response has been a lot different. This week, Defense Secretary Pete Higgseth touted a partnership publicly between the military and XAI to use Groc in war fighting capabilities. Meanwhile, the United States State Department has appeared to threaten the United Kingdom over their probe into Elon Musk's app. Senator Ted Cruz, a co-sponsor of the Take It Down Act, which establishes criminal penalties for the sharing of non-consensual intimate images, real or AI generated on social media, wrote on X last week that Groc generated images that were, quote, unacceptable and a clear violation, end quote of the law. On Monday, Cruz posted a photo on X of him with his arm around Elon Musk. The caption said, always great seeing this guy, rocket emoji. Make no mistake. This is a part of a crisis of impunity, because well beyond X or Elon Musk. This is the result of politicians, despots, and CEOs just bowing capitulating to Donald Trump. A financial grift and speculation running rampant insectors like cryptocurrency and meme stocks. A braggadocious, get the bag ethos that is no room for shame or greed. Of Musk realizing that his wealth insulates him from financial consequences of all kinds, it's cynical, it's cowardly, it is cancerous to the social fabric. I can't know what is in the heart of these CEOs or these politicians or the employees of the companies that are refusing to comment on the fact that they've invested in a company that is weaponized and viralized abusive, suggestive, sexual material. But I feel confident in saying that their silence on this issue is due to a hope that if they're quiet, everyone will just move on. It's a strategy on today's internet among people with power to just bank on a culture in which people have given up demanding consequences. And we just cannot allow that to happen. Because this is a line in the sand moment for the internet, but also for us culturally. This is not as I said last week a partisan issue. This is not as Elon Musk would have you think a free speech maximalist issue. It is, however, a free speech issue, in that this tool is being used to silence women through intimidation. The Grocks scandal, it is just so awful, so egregious that it offers a direct opportunity to address this crisis of impunity head on. This is a moment in which people with power or people who can exert pressure, the apples and Googles of the world are politicians, other people in Silicon Valley. This is a moment when they should demand accountability for this. Elon Musk should wear this. The stakes could not be any higher. Because if there is no red line around AI generated sexual abuse material, there's no red line. And so joining me now is Sophie Gilbert, who can speak to in many ways the other side of this, the consequences and what all of this horrible culture of misogyny is doing women online. But first, a quick break. Being an adult sucks. Adults, they have to work all day. When adults get mail, it always builds and builds suck. Sure, but we've got a driver's license. Enjoy 4.9% APR representative, with up to 4 years free servicing on the Alpine A290 plus range at your Alpine store. PCP, mobileized financial services, order between the 6th and 23rd of February, 2026, TSD's apply. Visit AlpineHyphenCars.co.uk for more information. Sophie, welcome to Galaxy Brain. Charlie, hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm sorry to talk to you under these circumstances, but it's a delight, regardless of what we're about to get into. And on that note, I did want to start with the news, which it's been a pretty horrific few months, even by internet and 2020 standards in terms of the blatant flagrant misogyny that is out there. We have the GROC undressing stuff, which I just talked about in the beginning here of the episode. We have the Epstein files coming to light, the vilification on the right of Renee Good in Minneapolis. There's a lot more which you've been writing about, including the president calling a reporter. Piggy, what has been your reaction to the volume of this really ugly misogyny manifesting right now? God, I just think like I used to be a TV critic. I don't know what to be glib. I used to write about culture. I mean, through a very, you know, I was a lens of gender. I mean, I still write about culture, but because I think I think and write so much about gender dynamics and misogyny, of course, and women, God, there's been a lot. There's really been a lot. There's been a lot of kind of stories to cover of things to respond to. It feels like everything is peaking. I don't know if this is actually the peak or if we have a way to go. But I mean, one thing I think is that so much of our culture has sort of learned from and is responding to the example of the president, who is not, I would say, the most decent person when it comes to talking, thinking about talking to treating women. That's things as well documented. Well documented, yeah. Yes. I'm wondering, well, I'll always check in, but obviously his example, I think, has had a real profound effect on the culture. I feel like it's enabled a lot of people to be much more honest about how they feel about women. I wrote this in one of my pieces last year, but it did feel like for a while that says a misogyny were not generally acceptable in public discourse. They were frowned upon. I mean, you would get fired as someone in the workplace. If you said something misogynistic or sexist, you would have an out-crown public outcry. If you tweeted something or said something publicly to that in that line. Now it's just its open season. I don't know if it's like of it in window being broadened or it just feels like there is so much license now for people to say the most outrageous, the most indecent, the most horrific things. Do you feel like a lot of that is a direct backlash? Some people frame the Trump years, the Trump election in 2016, is a backlash to the historic election of a black president. This idea that we are constantly ping-ponging back and forth in this very extreme way to the thing that happened before. Do you see this as, I know you've just referenced Trump now, but do you see it as also a reflexive reaction in the culture to the Mee two stuff? Yeah, definitely. I wrote about this a little bit in my book, but I wrote a book about the pop culture basically of the 1990s and the 2000s and the ways in which it presented women and the big influence of porn on popular culture. And so much of the pattern of that period of time is progress, backlash, progress, backlash, progress, backlash. I mean Susan Faluldi, I think wrote this in backlash that any time women are perceived to be making strides in terms of status, in terms of equality, there is a profound backlash to that in the culture. And I think certainly Trump himself was manifesting as a reaction to a lot. And then obviously after me too, you had this real pushback. And then after what happened in 2020 with the George Floyd protests and sustained efforts on the parts of a lot, lots of people to build a more equitable culture, there was obviously a backlash to that too. So it just feels like everything constantly is reverberating back and forth, back and forth. Is that why there was a line that struck me in the piece you wrote after Trump called a reporter, Piggy said over the last few weeks, it feels like we're revisiting the same characters over and over with no consequences and no forward momentum. Is that part of it or is that a different dynamic? No, I mean there are definitely the main characters, right? Like there's Trump, there's Elon Musk, there's RFK Jr. I mean so many of these people just keep coming up in the news with reference to these kinds of stories. And I think in part that's because of who they are and how they behave and what they're doing and the example that they set as well. Your book which you just mentioned is fabulous. And it picks up the ways in which so much of this is is is baking or culture like for example sexual objectification normalized and kind of branded and the fashion industry and they profit off of all that. And then it emanates also into every other corner of popular culture. I'd love to in part because of what's happening with Musk and Groc. I love to trace the role that technology is playing in all of this. Do you do you feel it's a similar kind of dynamic to the to what you were writing about in the book? Because you and I were talking a little bit before this and you told me that you're you know thinking about how this is coded in from the beginning on the tech platforms. And I wanted you to expand on that like how can we start to just trace this through some of these big tech platforms? Yeah I mean this was the one of the things that really surprised me the most in my research. That so many of our major tech platforms that are really incorporated into our daily lives were built on the exposure of women on the desire to look at sexualized pictures of women. I mean I can talk about this a bit more in a minute but if you go way back to the 90s when the internet was really first becoming a force of presence in people's lives. The first real viral video was Pamela Anderson's sex tape which was obviously stolen. It was a private video made with her and her husband on her honeymoon. It was stolen from the home. It was released without her consent. It was broadcast on the internet sold as VHS. It became like just such a a moment of mass media consumption in in a time when I think no one really understood what was happening. So it's just it's in the history of our technology. I mean before we had Facebook marks Zuckerberg created face mash which was a site where people could compare the relative hotness of women at Harvard. I mean Google images was created because Jennifer Lopez were a very low cut for such a dress to the Grammys and it was so much unprecedented traffic and there was no way to easily provide people with images so that that was like created as a response. I did not know that. Yeah so it's basically like name a tech platform in there. It has been created because someone someone wanted to go women. And it's not that that's a bad thing per se. It's just that it's part it's part of the coding. It's part of the texture of why the internet was made and what people have always wanted to use it for. And I think what you see and what we're seeing now with GROC is that whenever there's a leap forward in terms of technology the first thing people use it for seems to be sex and often sexual exploitation as well. Well I've done previously in past decades stories about technology and the porn industry. And the porn industry has the similar part or maybe slightly the flip side of that dynamic is that the porn industry is also very good at seeking out whether it's VHS or whether it is some of the internet stuff, some of the even just like the switch posts you know the panel and sex tape to this idea of amateur porn but then like artificial intelligence and VR goggles and things like that like the industry itself not the you know non-consensual part of it but the bought and paid for part of the industry has always been excellent at leveraging that and figuring out new novel ways of distribution. Yeah one of the facts that really blew my mind was learning that in the mid 70s when VHS technology was first introduced up to 75% of the tapes being made really the first day of VHS being available were pornographic. The early adopters were just that fast to see what VHS would be useful. One one thing that I that I was looking at reading in your book that it was just so striking post all of this GROC stuff and this idea of the internet just being flooded at the moment with all this AI generated non-consensual sexualized imagery is the the description from and you're just describing a scene from the 90s teenage sex comedy American pie in which one of the characters has an exchange student over and sets up a webcam and then you know like runs over to his friend's house to to basically like watch her surveil her in his room and then broadcast that to like the whole school or whatever this idea that she's basically shamed she's an exchange student shamed to go back to her own country where the the main character who did this is just you know kind of boys will be boysed out of it and I was just so struck by the way in which I mean American pie was just like a canonical film of the late 90s early 2000s just so popular in our culture and yet right there is this idea of and if it's exactly revenge porn but really horrible non-consexual broadcasted imagery over the internet the fact that these tools like should be used for this type of spying or or even if not it's kind of funny and that there are really are no consequences for doing so can you just tell me a little bit about how you feel popular culture has dealt with this rise of the broadcasting of of women the ogling of women in this and and sort of made it acceptable for people to treat women in this way yeah I mean I think one of the things that happens is that technology is so fast that we don't as a society even in terms of thinking about our laws or our structures or our ethical frameworks we don't have ways to respond as quickly as technology arrives so when things like webcams and the abilities of stream video or the ability to like first-evely take pictures of people without their knowledge when things like that arrive we don't have it takes us a while to sort of build ethical frameworks in terms of usage so I think that example in American pie is so interesting because you see this new technology you see it as a story in a film but we didn't have the language right to say non-concentral porn or I mean it's we don't have the words necessarily to accurately describe what's going on and I think that's it took it to always takes a while for us to catch up so it was something like another thing I write about in my book is the way that photographers paparazzi photographers and the 2000s would lie down on the ground to take pictures of women's skirts basically to train capture catch them you know photographs of them without underwear and now I would call that non-concentral porn of course but back then it was called up skirt like up skirt photography upscirting because we didn't yet have we hadn't figured out the right way of thinking about what it actually was what it actually meant and that's why I think language is so important and it's why something like what's happening on Grop right now is so disparaging to me because it's like we've already done we've already learned the lesson we've already decided as a culture that this is not something that we want to participate in that it's wrong that it profoundly hurts and traumatizes women and yet new technology comes along a new way of doing it and everyone kind of forgets like everything that we've set forward do you think it's it's that or do you think it is a backlash again in this way or a or people trying to reclaim it right something that I have noticed in the in the dynamic and other people have noticed of course of what's happening with the Grop stuff is it it's so clearly all about power like it's this idea of like immediate ritualized viralized shame and humiliation and it feels to me almost less like we haven't learned those lessons and more like a bunch of people saying like you know we want to go back yeah I think you're a hundred percent right it is about power it's about asserting that in certain spaces at least online women are not equal human beings they will always be seen as non-human objects anytime they you know have ways of speaking or voicing things they will be essentially silence they'll be driven out of certain platforms they'll be made to feel unwelcome they'll be shamed in lots of ways and humiliated and it's very much about underscoring the idea that again I mean it's sort of taking away our full humanity in a way that I find like again horrifying in so many ways it's not about even about making sexual material it's about making sexual material of women in a way that is trying to dehumanize them and objectify them but also to to sort of push them out of of public life it's basically like an obvious question given that we're talking about Grock right now but how are you thinking about how AI is supercharging this or how it's changing the dynamics obviously it's allowing it to happen so much more quickly it's allowing there to be I guess a level of crude and awful imagination in the scenarios that one can be put in but yeah well how do you see AI changing and pushing this dynamic forward? there are so many different elements of AI that I find disconcerting I think one is the way that it just affirms whatever the user wants to do it's sort of it's very sickfantic it's very obsequious it will try and keep users engaged by by really making them feel good about themselves and what they're doing there's not a lot of pushback and in terms of a lot of the relationships that are being set up in terms of people's emotional and intimate relationships with chatbots it's not normal to have that kind of relationship you don't have that kind of relationship with the human being with any kind of human being there's friction there's pushback you know there's a two way power dynamic it's not the person in the relationships let's say the man in the relationship being constantly affirmed constantly catered to constantly gratified in any way that he might want and so I think setting up that dynamic in terms of what are people's expectations how are they being you know how are they being set up to have real human relationships in real life that's that's one thing that I find troubling but there's also I mean you could look at the way that I think when chat GPT a version of chat GPT was launched in 2024 and it had this female voice that was modeled after Scarlett Johansson because she declined to let them use her allegedly allegedly I'm sorry sounded exactly exactly like Scarlett Johansson Scarlett Johansson thought that it sounded like Scarlett Johansson she was very pissed off allegedly but it's it's very feminine coded right and so you have these assistants I think this comes back to the series discourse when Siri was first launched and she of course had a female voice when you know Alexa obviously has a woman's name oh are we affirming these dynamics where women take care of men by coding that into the platform so we use it it certainly seems so something I wanted to ask you about was the rise of only fans obviously porn we've talked about it and through through your work it you know there is this kind of it always is coming back to porn in terms of you know roles and expectations for women and and and the way that it's infusing in culture only fans has been a really interesting revolution in adult content in that you know when I was reporting on the adult industry a little bit in the odds or the 2010s rather it felt like nothing was ever going to take down those tube sites those free tube sites that were you know squeezing production companies also you know uploading a lot of stuff that hadn't been verified you know from performers that was quote unquote amateur content a lot of big issues and also sort of a strange leviathan monopoly on the industry that was driving the money that the performers could make way down only fans comes along there's a sort of democratization element and influencing element there in and a lot of people have made great amounts of money on that has been a feeling from certain people of you know an empowerment in terms of this type of sex work and yet it also feels to me like it has added this influencer culture onto it right there are so many elements of influencer interaction with fans that that the platform has set up that I think as you said also set up these relationships how how have you been watching the rise of of only fan and thinking about it in terms of all this culture I find it so fascinating in so many was I think the first way is thinking culturally I'm always thinking about like how does culture inform desire how does culture you know teachers things that we're attracted to or things that are acceptable or things that we fantasize about and when you when you look at a lot of porn for the 90s and the 2000s the women in those movies were a very narrow range of beauty they were sort of mostly young mostly thin mostly blond like I'm not going to go any more descriptive than that but but it was it was quite a narrow I would say physicality and then only fans comes along and it really broadens I think the scope of the kinds of just the kinds of desire that people felt licensed and having I'm thinking about age like a lot of the celebrities who have made names for themselves are not only fans and who have really made significant amounts of money are in their 50s which seems interesting to me because in mainstream culture those kinds of women are not typically portrayed as desirable right like you're you know you're in the 20s and the 30s or in your 40s if you've had a good facelift but women in their 50s are not typically sex symbols in Hollywood so suddenly you have this platform that is really I don't know it's sort of it's allowing a much broader definition of of what is desirable in mainstream culture and so that to me is is fascinating and positive in lots of ways I think only fans have certainly made things a lot safer for sex workers in many ways but again I mean in terms of what I was talking about with AI and chatbots it's the same kind of one-sided dynamic where you have men having these very intimate and often parasocial but very very intimate and emotional relationships with women who are performing for them for money it's not coming from an honest place of connection you know the kind of the kind of it's it's coming from a place of sort of a one-sided power dynamic where women perform and cater to men and so while it's fascinating in so many ways I do think it's affirming the same kinds of patterns that we see more and more in in technology I've had to go and look in some of these backwater areas for the reporting on the grok stuff but also just in general with AI driven sexualized images or you know what have you and something that I've seen in some of these communities I mean apart from the the awfulness is these confessional posts from men who are saying guys I'm kind of ruined by this right this is like I can generate my fantasy and my dream on demand now and then tweak it in all these different ways and do it again and again and again and I don't you know feel anything when I look at women or something like that like I've seen numerous confessional posts in that regard and I think about that with the the culture and I don't know how much you know about this but there was a there was a very long Harper's story about this but this culture of gooning and this idea of sensory overload you know marathon sessions of self-pleasuring and with you know being parted by by porn of all kinds where do you think this is all headed like you mentioned peaking in terms of it of like misogynist behavior and this is obviously a different category but yeah where do you feel like how this is headed it seems so much like it's an addiction I was I was also looking at the Reddit page for grok today just to briefly see what people were talking about and I apologize no no no it's okay but you know they're opposed by women saying I've discovered that my boyfriend has created you know undressed images of people who we know women who you know in real life like he says he can't help it it's a compulsion but it you know that's one real world consequence but I sort of have talked a lot of at the past year about how the manosphere is setting men up for profound failure like if you cannot see women as equal human beings you cannot relate to them on a level of basic quality no one is going to want to be in your life no one is going to want to have an intimate personal relationship with you and we know we know that men need marriage and meaningful relationships as a health matter like men live longer when they're married they're happier when they're married they get less diseases when they're married like it's that kind of emotional stability has a profound public health impact and so things like this they are setting men up for these lives of profound loneliness and you know not to sort of be like what about the men but it is an interesting aspect of it that I think can get lost sometimes when we're talking about it is rightfully how awful and humiliating this is for the women involved but like it it works both ways to that point I don't want to I don't want to focus on the men in all of this but do you think that that's a way like a crack in which somebody you know like some of this can just be you know begun to be pulled a bit apart is this I think so much about what the manosphere and and and a lot of these you know hyper masculine influencers are trying to sell right which is this idea that like someone's putting something over on you right like you're either being exploited by feminism or whatever or you're being you know like you're being subjected to something by some outside force right and and this is a way to like push against it get a little bit of autonomy be a man do whatever I feel like there's a reverse version of that with this right which is like all of these people are setting you up like a reverse Alex Jones right like all these people are setting you up for for this failure they're exploiting you to sell creasing powder or like whatever it is and that is a way in which you can actually you know break free on this like people are people are trying to subject you for for profit because they're influencers because there's there's a reason to or an intentional thing to game do you feel like that yeah it's like a possible way to switch the dynamic yeah I think it's a way to frame it that gets people to pay attention certainly maybe the a different kind of person than someone who might read our stories at the time it can be profoundly influenced as we're right you know I'm always trying to figure out how to talk to the manosphere all right I think I think it's a direct camera I think it is an argument that is both valid and may have more of an impact I think the thing that I really am caught on right now is the thing that you and our colleague Mateo Wong wrote about which is that this is our red line moment like if we cannot agree that this is something that we will not do as a culture there is no coming back from it and particularly I'm I was thinking a lot about Elon Musk's comments when my great-home country of Great Britain threatened not even threatened but there was the specter of possibly expying take enough line and he responded that it would be this suppression of free speech and I was thinking about how we've always as a culture agreed we've been unanimous on this that there are certain kinds of speech that we will suppress and that speech is you know child sexual abuse material that is the kind of speech that we will not tolerate in society we do not allow it we we legislate very strongly against it we there are so many taboos against it it is something that is really profoundly found upon and we've always agreed that's why why now has this been has it become something that suddenly people politicians in my country are saying might be protected free speech like what has changed and and I really just so much in alignment with your argument that there's there's sort of no coming back if we can't draw this line now and set set up our boundaries what what has changed at the risk of sounding extremely dumb and obvious but a healthy society stops this yeah I mean we're not stopping this so what is change is it just simply we're just not a healthy society or what's changed that this is a red line that people seem okay crossing as long as they're not you know they don't have to to wear it you know they just as long as it just just passes yeah there's such cognitive dissonance and being alive right now in this moment of like Epstein freak out but also post kind of Q and on save the children and suddenly people like it's really hard to make sense of I think the thing that has changed is Elon Musk and the money that he has and the power that he has and the position that he has and the way that he has taken over X in a way where it still operates just about enough like the traditional social media site that it once was that people feel like it might be but it's it's not anymore it's really fortune with a couple of normies like it's been it's been so profoundly radicalized like it's just become a cesspool in a way that I think people who have stayed on it have become a new too and they're it's sort of harder to shock them I think and that has profoundly affected the people who are still on the platform and and the ramifications are going to affect all of us. I I just did it at the front of this a bit of a of a monologue about this moment the red line moment the line in the sand I mean I think the hope always with our work when we're talking about the culture and how or the technologies and how they they push people to a certain you know the force culture will change in some way if a lawmaker if a if someone in power is listening to this like what's your message for for them on all this right now. I would say this is such an easy one for you like it's so straightforward morally it's so simple ethically it's so simple it's so straightforward if you can be the person who will take a stand you will have so many people behind you I know it's hard because must cars money and must cars power and money buys you more power but this is very straightforward and and it's not something that the public larger divided on and if if you think that the public are divided it's possible because you've spent too much time on X. What I could just say it better myself. Thank you for coming on to talk about the world's most depressing stuff I think the only way though to go forward is to just address it and on so the only way out is through and thank you for helping me get through. Thank you for your piece every I know I'm sorry that you've already spoken about it but I wanted to bring it up because it's such a good piece and everyone should read it and I think this kind of moral clarity right now is is hard to come by and very important. Wonderful Sophie thanks so much. Pleasure. That's it for us here thank you again to my guest Sophie Gilbert for a wonderful and difficult conversation if you liked what you saw here new episodes of Galaxy Brain drop every Friday you can subscribe to the Atlantic's YouTube channel or on Apple or Spotify or wherever it is that you get your podcasts and if you enjoyed this found some value in it remember you can support the work of myself and all the other journalists at the Atlantic like Sophie by subscribing to the publication and you can do so at the Atlantic dot com slash listener that's the Atlantic dot com slash listener thanks so much for listening and watching and I'll see you on the internet. This episode of Galaxy Brain was produced by Nathaniel from and edited by Claudine Abade who was engineered by Dave Grine our theme music is by Rob Smersiac. Claudine Abade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdes is our managing editor.
