Alastair Campbell: Reshaping Political Debate

The day after we left the European Union, or we voted to leave the European Union, the most googled question in the United Kingdom was, what is the European Union? You're joking. I'm not. I'm not. So that's a failure of politics, it's a failure of media, and it's a failure of education. Welcome to the special English edition of Degorsa Neustadt, a German podcast series by Zabilla Bar, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who, inspired by the World Economic Forum's great reset initiative, create revolutionary projects that actually do make our world smarter, greener and fairer. I'm delighted to welcome Alastair Campbell as my guest today. Throughout his remarkable career, he has redefined the art of communication. From his tenure as the political editor of the Daily Mirror to his pivotal role as Tony Blair's director of communications and strategy, he has pushed labor with vigorous campaigns to three victories. With 19 books under his belt, most of them bestsellers, covering diverse topics from politics to mental health, Alastair continues to make a profound impact. His latest book, But What Can I Do? A Sunday Times Best Seller Right From the Start, is an analysis of what has gone wrong with politics and ideas about how to put it right. In the spring of 2022, he launched a podcast, The Rest Is Politics, with former Tory cabinet minister Rory Stewart, and the two talked themselves into people's heads and hearts with pure politics. Today, each episode resonates with a million listeners worldwide. On top of the UK shards, Alastair and Rory managed to regain control of the political debate in the UK. So much so that when I googled The Rest Is Politics, it showed 1 billion and 660 million results. Well, Alastair, a very warm welcome to you, and let's dive straight into it. Thank you. It takes you today, in the age of 66, a couple of hours to sell out prestigious venues like the Royal Albert Hall or the O2 Arena. How aware are you that you set the political tone in your country? Well, I think there are two separate things there. One is that clearly the podcast has become very, very popular, with, as you say, lots of listeners and lots of people who don't necessarily follow politics very closely outside the podcast. So that's interesting and new, I guess. I know you're interested in pioneers and I think that's been quite pioneering. I hope it's changing the political debate more profoundly, but I think it's too early to tell. I mean, it's true that we have a lot of listeners, it's true that we have a lot of interest inside the political debate, but there is still a lot of cynicism, there is still a lot of negativity about politics. And so I think it's too early to tell whether we're actually moving the dial in a sustained way. I think that remains to be seen. And what do you think you are doing differently today from mainstream media? I think the reason why it's been successful is because we're both of politics, but we're not necessarily in politics in the same way as most politicians are. Neither of us are standing for election, neither of us are actually at the moment members of parties. We are able to give accounts of our experience, very different experiences in politics, but also give a slightly outside perspective. And then I think the second thing is that we're both of the media, but not in the media. And I think that one of the reasons the podcast is getting so many listeners is because people are fascinated by politics, but they don't like what the current generation of politicians offers them or the current generation of media. So they're looking for something different. And I think they think we're a bit different. And when I look into your profile, I see it takes me 10 seconds and I realize that you got one million listeners clearly, but you also got one million followers on X. And I was thinking, in you're there in your own right, so you're not there for Downing Street or for Tony Blair or for Labour Party, it is you. So they tune in to listen to you. Yeah, but that's based, I mean, you've got to remember, I've been around as a journalist for a long time and then in a fairly high profile position. So I think it's a combination and a continuation, but it's also with different and new layers. I remember when I left, so it's 21 years since I left Downing Street full time. But I've always been in and out of the Labour scene ever since. I went back to help Tony Blair win again in 2005. I've helped several Labour leaders. I've worked on campaigns in different parts of the world, but I've done it in a completely different way. And I think the other thing is that I've done other things. You mentioned a lot of the books and you mentioned mental health. I think I was probably one of the first high profile people in the UK to talk about mental health in a way that I think did move the dial on the debate. I think also I've made films. I've done things differently, but I've never lost the sense of that past political profile. I think I've built on it and developed on it. You know, and I'm very conscious of the fact that if, you know, if I drop dead today, the obituaries will have the words Tony Blair in the introductions. I mean, they will because that's how so even though I'm not, that's not what I do. It's part of who I am. And I think therefore that was quite a solid foundation. But also I think people have seen that it's possible to go through a very tough experience, which I did go through a lot of attack, a lot of abuse, a lot of hatred, and come out smiling. And I think that people have a certain regard for that. I know you've read the book and thank you for your very kind comments that you wrote to me. You may remember the word that I invented per civillians. Yeah. That I think is, I think people respect that quality in people that you kind of, you just keep going, you learn from mistakes, you learn from set backs, and you keep going. And that's kind of what I try to do. We have a lot of programs. I mean, especially in Britain from Channel 4 to the BBC, they all do their bit. But certainly what I was missing for a very, very long time, probably even before Brexit, was that somebody takes on a broader context, a more holistic approach to the world's problems. Was that your aim or was it something you developed with Tori? Sorry. Tori Rory. Yeah. It's interesting how I'd say develop. Because when the podcast started, we really were just almost thrown together because what happened was the people who produced the Restless History, which is another very successful podcast, they asked me if I would do a podcast called The Restless Politics, but with somebody of different politics to mind, preferably a Tori. Now, I've spent most of my career trying to demolish the Tori party, so I can't pretend that I don't have many Tori friends. But I sort of thought about it, and then I actually did an Instagram post and a Twitter video, and I said to my followers, if I did a podcast with a Tori, who do you think you should be? And a lot of people said Rory Stewart, so I phoned him up. I didn't know him very well. I think we'd only have had one conversation before, and I said, what do you think? And he was up for it. So we basically decided just to give it a go and see if the concept worked and see if the chemistry worked. And then the motto of disagreeing agreeably, that became a very important part of it. And then I think we realized that whilst most of our listeners will be in the UK, we started to develop quite a lot of listeners abroad, and also we started to realize that a lot of our listeners in the UK enjoyed the fact that we didn't just talk about UK politics, which a lot of our media, yes, they'll talk about Trump, Biden, and they'll occasionally talk like, today they're full of Putin election. But generally, we have a very insular, inward looking media, and they liked the fact that last week we had a long discussion about the war in Sudan, which we had so many people say, my God, we didn't even know there was a war in Sudan. Because they, and likewise, even though we've left the European Union, which as you know, I think is an absolute disaster, but we still talk about Europe, we still talk about politics in Europe, we talk about Asia, we talk about Africa. And I think that people like that sense of us trying to see beyond the UK, and also to give people a sense of how Britain's role in the world is changing, and how other countries are having to compete and adapt to a lot of the same pressures that are putting our politics under pressure. I find it because you mentioned that a lot of people didn't know there was even a war in Sudan. Same with Yemen, probably. Absolutely. I mean, you know, we've talked a lot, for example, about these these the succession of military coups across Africa. And every time we talk about them, we get people saying, God, we never had anything about that. Now, I think European media, particularly French, obviously, with the francophone links to Africa, but I, you know, whenever I'm in Germany, and I'm reading German media, I do think you still have a more internationalist view of the world, not uniform and not universal. But I think that we do tend to be very, very inward looking. And also, I think the other the other thing, this is a problem with, with a lot of media around the world is that when when there's one major international event, it's almost like that's all they can cope with. So, like, you know, when it was Ukraine, the start of the Ukraine war, everybody talked about Ukraine, Israel Gaza, everybody talked about Israel Gaza. You know, Russian elections, everybody talks about that Trump, everybody talks about that. It's almost like there's a hierarchy. And you can't really do more than one or two. And we try to say to each other, every week, let's focus on something that we think is important, but which isn't getting much attention. We don't do it as reporters. We're not reporters. I mean, we don't, we often talk about places that we go to, but we often talk about places that we don't. And I'm not pretending that if we talk about the Russian elections, for example, that you're going to get as much depth as you would listening to say, Steve Rosenberg from the BBC, or the correspondent of, you know, Der Spiegel, whatever it might be, who are there. But I think what you are getting is something that's able to go in whichever direction we decide. There's no formula that says what we have to talk about. And that is exactly the point. Yes, I agree with you that media and politics jump on the particular event. But at the same time, for the full 24 hours a day, their approach is extremely narrow and narrow-minded. Well, you know what, we've mentioned several times in recent weeks, because, you know, when you're sitting watching television, for example, so I don't watch much TV, I watch a lot of sport. And then sometimes I'll just go into the news channels and I'll kind of channel hop. And, you know, occasionally you come across something really interesting. But I have found in recent months that some of the most interesting stuff I've come across has been on Al Jazeera. And I think it's because they, yes, they've got a worldview, for sure. You know, you know, you're watching it from a certain perspective. But at the same time, they're covering international stories and situations, which, you know, you don't necessarily, well, for example, I mentioned Sudan. Yesterday when I checked in on Al Jazeera, there was a huge report about people who were fleeing Sudan for South Sudan. They were following families and they were interviewing families as they were on the move. And I, you know, I could be wrong, but I just haven't seen that on the BBC. I just haven't seen it. And that's not to criticise the BBC in that, you know, they get enough flak as it is. But my point is, I think they think they're playing to an agenda and also to a formula. I find that so much of when I'm doing that channel hopping, I kind of know as soon as I can see the headline, I know what they're going to say, I know how they're going to report it. And it's just not very fresh. And I think the other thing that we do that is people often ask, you know, well, how much do you plan it? How much do you prepare it? We never talk about what we're going to say. We never say, well, let's talk about Israel Gaza. And you focus on this and I focus on that. We never, ever do that. We basically just say, right, we haven't done Israel Gaza for a few weeks. Let's talk about that. Maybe use as the peg, the fact that Biden said X about Netanyahu or Schumer said X about Israel, whatever it might be, or a particular incident, that becomes the starting point. But then we genuinely try to have a conversation. At the moment, when I listen to the rest's politics and leading, of course, especially when Roy and you talk about Gaza, I would love you to give me an even bigger picture and add another layer meaning to hear the perspective of major players of the Middle East, or Asia as well and South America. Because at the moment, I feel I really lack information outside the European and US. And I'm saying that because I listened to a speech given by Queen Rania of Jordan that gave me actually another picture of the whole situation. So how careful do you look at an issue like Gaza or the Ukraine? Well, we're not, as I said earlier, we're not the BBC. We're not ARD. We're not a broadcast station. We're just two people who talk about politics every week. But so for example, with Israel Gaza, when it happened, we did a sort of immediate podcast where we kind of just said what we're thinking and reacting and so forth. But even as that discussion took place, we were developing the idea that we saw our role within it. And so far as we felt we had one was to try to give a broader context, try to explain a bit of the history, try to explain a bit of the background, try to explain specifically to younger people, some of the stuff of the even recent past. I was amazed recently, Rory Stewart, who teaches at American universities, you know, and he sent me a message. You know, the famous picture of Bill Clinton with Arafat and Rabin at the White House. He said that when he was with his students, and these are students who are studying this stuff, everybody recognized Clinton, about 10% recognized Arafat and about hardly anybody could name Rabin. Now that's students. So let alone the general public who can be forgiven for thinking, well, I don't know any. So we tried to do that a bit of the history. We then did invite some guests. We had, we invited the Palestinian ambassador to give his personal story, but also his assessment. But in doing so, I had a long chat with him beforehand and said, look, this will not work if it just becomes you propagandizing on behalf of one side of the argument. And I actually think if you listen to that interview, he understood that he understood this was a broader opportunity. Of course, he was expressing his views, his assessment, his opinions, his history, if you like, but I think we fitted it within that broader sense. We then, we did a very long interview with Yuval Noah Harari, who's somebody who's, I think, well informed, well respected, and he was able, again, I think, to feed that sense of an educative piece. Well, we've not done. So for example, as you know, we do the main podcast and a Q&A, and we also do an interview, one interview per week. We've basically said to, because we interviewed the Palestinian ambassador, the Israeli government have said, well, you know, would you like to interview in Israeli? And we said, yes, definitely. And obviously, if it was somebody very senior like Netanyahu or a member of the war cabinet, absolutely. But what we wouldn't do was just take somebody who we know is, if you like, a professional communicator. And so we, and likewise on Russia, Ukraine, I heard a guy on the radio on the BBC this morning, who was there to put the Russian perspective on the Putin election win. I don't think we would take something like that because it was so clearly just, you know, and I'm not criticizing the BBC for this, they had to get somebody on who was a sort of pro-Putin voice. But it was just a straightforward piece of propaganda. So I think we'd be, we interviewed Marina Litvinenko a while back. No, obviously, very, very critical of the Putin regime, but I think a legitimate voice. Would we interview Navalny's widow? Definitely. But it would have to be anything that we do by way of interviews. So this morning, we've released an interview with Albin Korty, the Prime Minister of Kosovo. Now, he says some very, very critical things about the Serbs. Would we welcome a response from the Serbs? Yes, but it would have to be somebody very, very senior. And it would have to be somebody who was not just going to come on and read outlines to take. By the way, I must tell you, my two top, the two names I really, really, really want onto this podcast are both German. Yeah, and I'm not in agreement here with you. I know at least one. And I think I cannot believe it that he, anyway, yes. Jürgen Klopp. One is Merkel, right? Yeah. And the other, Klopp is right, yes. Was Klopp, I agree. Yes. Yes. Yes. But I want, yeah. Okay. Since you mentioned it, why Angela Merkel? Because I think she, I think she's just been such a significant figure in European history in recent years. I think, and I think she's complicated. And I think even though she's been incredibly high profile for a long time, I think there's, I think she's still very quite enigmatic. And I think there's quite a lot to unpick. And I think that the format that we have would hopefully lend itself to that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see. You will be successful because I don't think she, she's doing anything. Yeah. No, but she's writing a book who knows when the book comes out, she might decide, you know, that could be quite interesting. Also, I think because she's always, as German Chancellor, always felt that she should express herself in German. I think people will be surprised about how, how well she speaks English and so forth. I accompanied her a couple of times to Downing Street when I was in London, because I worked for the embassy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, different times. Yes. But let's go back to Britain. And let's go back to what we can do there and your book. But what can I do? Because you analyze Britain's problems and provide readers with basically a manual on how not to feel powerless. Can you elaborate on it a bit? Yeah, I mean, the book's really in three parts. First is the analysis of where it's all gone wrong, which I think is a lot to do with populism and polarization and the, the spread of post truth in politics, of which Trump is part of which Putin is a part of which Johnson and Brexit are part. And so that's a very bleak picture of where we've got to and, and, and, and just how dangerous and bad it is. I think Trump coming, the possibility of Trump returning to office in America is a sign of just how bad it is. The second part really is about how the pressures of politics and how you need to look after yourself. And then essentially, the third part is saying, okay, if you're still with me, if you, you're fine with how bad it is, you find how tough it is, but you still want to do it. Here's how. And of course, it depends on the person, it depends on how much time they have, it depends on the level of their commitment. But essentially, I'm saying the answer to the question, but what can I do? You do what you can. And that can go from anything to being, you know, a volunteer on a campaign to actually deciding, you know, I'm going to run for office and I'm going to try and get to the very top. And I try to give people a guide as to how that is possible. Obviously, it depends again upon where you live, what sort of party you support, whether actually you want to do what Macron did, you start your own. And so there's, there's no simple, there's no simple way of describing how to do politics, but essentially saying that if we don't persuade the next generation to get properly engaged in politics, then I think democratic politics itself is under threat. So essentially, it's alerting people to the danger, so that hopefully they can then get involved. And I must tell you, I had a wonderful email last week, I've just written about this in my column in the New European, I got an email from a woman called Janet, who said that she brought the book for her husband, a guy called Bob, who, and then of course, as often happens when people buy books for somebody else, she read it first. And she said to him, you've got to read this book. What he was through the book, he finished the book, at which point in the area where he lives, a, the Conservative Party councillor, you know, the local representative for that area, resigned and discussed at what the Conservative Party had become, which meant, which meant there was a by-election. And on the basis of reading the book, Bob decided to put his hand up to stand for Labour. And he is now the first ever Labour councillor in that ward. How's about that? That is really fantastic. This is really fantastic. I was very happy about that. Because, A, he not only felt animated, but he probably also had an idea of what to do, what are the first steps? Yeah, yeah. And it was obviously, and I've had lots of, you know, when the book came out, I went to talk in lots of schools. And in fact, my next two books are similar books, but much shorter, aimed at schoolchildren. And, you know, when you go into schools, I regularly go into schools and, and the first thing I say, sometimes I will say something like, you know, right, hands up anybody who thinks they might ever be a politician, and nobody ever puts their hand up. Okay. And then, if you spend a couple of hours with them explaining what it is, how interesting it can be, how much fun it can be, how important it is, the amazing characters that you meet within it, by the, and most importantly, the change that you can make. And I give them examples of people who've made change. And then by the end of it, you know, you get, and you say the same question, anybody here think they might be a politician, and you'll get quite a lot will say, yeah, I might do that, I might do that. So I think that's, I think the, you know, giving people the confidence to think they can make a difference, I think it's half the battle. Yeah. Alistair, you say in your book, because talking confidence, you say in your book, confidence goes hand in hand with public speaking. I saw it very long about it. And is that the very British approach? No, I think it's, I think it, I think, what does confidence mean? Confidence to me is a feeling that you have that you can, you can achieve the things that you set out to achieve, and you can, you can inspire yourself in a way to motivate yourself to, to think there's something there that I think needs to be fixed, and I'm going to go and fix it, or there's something there that needs to be achieved, and I'm going to go and achieve it. And, and I think, I mean, I think what I think is particularly British, because we have this awful 7% private education where people are, in a sense, they're taught confidence, they're taught to believe that they're better, they're taught to believe superiority. That's not the sort of confidence I'm talking about. But what I am talking about is that when I go into a lot of these, the schools in less privileged areas, I think the one, the big difference between the kids that you meet who are at the rich people's schools and the kids you meet who are at the poor people's schools is actually confidence. It's, it's, and it's a belief that their voice matters. And the reason why public speaking is so important, by the way, I don't, when I say public speaking, I don't just mean standing on a platform public speaking, I mean, out and about public speaking, I mean, how you engage with the authorities, I mean, how you, how you communicate to people that you're trying to persuade to your point of view. I guess maybe public speaking gives it a slightly misleading sense. I guess public, public communication is what I mean. How do you communicate when you're out, out of the house as it were? Yeah, because I was, as you did probably as well, I watched Oppenheimer. And I thought he is not the public speaker full stop. So, but I would call him very confident in, very confident in his area of expertise. Yeah, yeah, but I'm talking, I'm talking here, I suppose in the context of politics, about I think to be an effective politician, I think part of the armory is that you have to have an ability to promote and build and, put forward an argument in public. I think something like, I think expertise is slightly different thing. So, somebody like Oppenheimer, or you, or I look at some of the, some of the people in the tech world now, I mean, I would argue that somebody like Musk or Zuckerberg, they're not, technically they're terrible communicators, okay? They're terrible public speakers, but their power as speakers comes from a bit like Oppenheimer, comes from their very, very special expertise in the field that they're engaged in. But I don't think either of them would be effective politicians. No, I agree with you. I agree with you. And I was, while you were talking, I was reminded of that you just said you write another two books, right? And just going through your profile alone is, I mean, writing 19 books in 16 years, really? I mean, and most of them are bestsellers. So, you write, and this almost, it doesn't matter what you write, you write about depression, and it's a bestseller, you write about the player years, it's a bestseller. What can I do is a bestseller. What do you do differently? Tom, let's say somebody like me who writes three books in 10 years. Yeah, but I read one of them, the Honigand Seige, and I really enjoyed it. So, I don't, I think, I think, what do I do differently? I do work quite fast, I'm quite, so I am quite prolific. I think when I, when I publish a book, I really put the work in to make it a success. I mean, I don't, I don't sort of flog myself to death, but I do make sure that people know that it's happening. You know, I guess I use my profile, I use my access to different media, to different events, and I think I hopefully, I mean, they haven't all been bestsellers. Some of them, I mean, I've written four novels, one of them, I think two of them, I think got in the top 10 list. None of them were number one bestseller. One of them didn't sell very well at all, but I think when I have a good idea, when I know I have a good idea, I know how to push it. So, for example, you know, I wrote a book about winning mindsets called Winners of How They Succeed, and I just knew when I was working on that there's a lot in this book, and I know it'll do well, and I know I'll be able to promote it and sell it. And I think, likewise, with the two kids' books that I'm doing, I think, you know, I think I'll be able to, they're very different, they're not going to be in the bestseller list of the same, because they're children, essentially, you know, one of them is for primary schools, it's like a children's book. But I know that there's something interesting, I know that people will find it interesting, and I'll then just work out how best to make sure that people are aware of it. Once they're aware of it, then, you know, that's half the battle. So, writing for children, the idea came when you toured through the schools, is that right? Yeah, partly. It was, so when, but what can I do, it's aimed at everybody, it's aimed at everybody saying, unless we get involved in politics, you know, we're in a bad way. But it's obviously, particularly in a young generation. So, actually, it was a publisher who came to me and said, look, I think this is great, but, you know, is there a way of doing this for the younger people, specifically for younger people? And so, that's what the next one is, it's really just an explanation of what politics it is, aimed at, like, very small children, you know, children in primary school. And that, I think, there, my background as a tabloid journalist probably came in quite handy, because you had situations, I had one point where the editor actually said, look, you got to remember, the readers of this book are very, very young, you probably have to explain who Barack Obama was. So, you know, and that sense of having to say, explain something like the voting system in one sentence or one paragraph, you know, you really have to think about every word. So, yeah, I've enjoyed doing it and hopefully it'll go well. Yeah. And of course, education and especially political education starts, yeah, around that age, doesn't it? And if we don't, we don't have it, we don't have any political education in schools. It's crazy, you know, unless you do A level politics, which is like 16 to 18, you don't do politics in school. That's right. Yeah, exactly. So, where do they get that information? They get it from social media, they get it from the newspapers, most of which are biased, they get it from their parents, they, you know, they get it from, I don't know, wherever. And whereas actually, I think that learning about how, I think one of the problems with politics is people don't know how it works. Yeah, yeah. They don't understand the political process. And of course, in the, in a sense, why should they if they're not taught it? So, you know, they learn about kings and queens and all the stuff of history, fine, I'm not saying that's not important, but actually how politics works today. And just remember the day after we left the European Union, or we voted to leave the European Union, the most googled question in the United Kingdom was, what is the European Union? You're joking. I'm not. I'm not. So, that's, that's a, that's a failure of politics, it's a failure of media and it's a failure of education. But Alistair, actually, when, when did that really happen? Because that is very briefly not my experience whatsoever. I lived during the Blair and Brown years in Britain, very happily, very proud. And I left when Campbell came into power. Cameron. Sorry, I'm sorry. When Cameron came into power, can you imagine you would have come into power? Absolutely. Quite right. Cameron came into power. And so from then on, it's just downwards. How come? Oh, I don't know. I think, I think, excuse me, I think on the European front, I think we underestimated the impact of several decades of relentlessly anti-European propaganda in, in several of our main newspapers and in sections of the Tory party. And then I think David Cameron came in. He came in at a time when on the back of the global financial crisis, which they successfully pinned on Labour, even though actually Gordon Brown had done an amazing job during the crisis. Yeah, I agree. Then I think what happened was that the Labour party that followed new Labour didn't really defend our record. And I think the next thing that happened was that the Tory party divisions over Europe, which had been around for a long time, Cameron felt he had to have the referendum. I think he felt he was never going to lose. I think Johnson thought they were never going to win. That went wrong. And I think, as you say, I think the decline has stemmed from that. So I think it's a combination of the financial crisis feeding populism. And then the populism, the peak populism for us being the Brexit referendum, and then the politics that's followed. And then we've just had this succession of really, really bad conservative leaders. I think Theresa May tried her best to make sense of the position, but she was put in an impossible position by people like Johnson. Johnson came in and was a total disaster. Trust came in was a total disaster. And Sunak's now there and he's just not up to the job. So we're in a complete mess. And I think it's going to take at least a change of government and probably more than a change of government to get us out of the mess. And if I come back and practically now to your what can I do? Is should we focus more on the do or should we focus more on the I? Well, I think you have to do both. What can I do? As I said earlier, people have to do what they can. First of all, they have to decide whether they care. I think one of the big problems in politics in the UK, but us, you know, to some extent, all over the world is people thinking they can't make a difference. And I'm trying to persuade people that they can. It doesn't mean that everybody gets what they want. That's impossible, but you can make a difference. And I quote lots of examples of individuals who've decided to make either general change or specific change. And I think that the so it is about doing is no doubt it's about doing a doing can take many, many different forms. You know, writing can be doing, campaigning can be doing, establishing things can be doing, joining teams that already exist can be doing, starting new teams for things that don't exist can be doing. So there's lots and lots of different ways of doing it. But ultimately, my point is that for all that we tend to look at politics and think now not for me, I'm trying to build the bridge between people seeing things that are wrong with their lives and the places that they live, or, you know, the world that they live in and saying that if you really want to try to fix it, you have to get involved in the political process, whether you like it or not, here's how. So it's a combination of the I and the do, but the do is very, very important. I think I think part of the problem with them with the modern world is that people think that doing is tweeting or signing a petition or, you know, that is part of doing, but it's quite a small part of doing. Alastair, you also speak French and German. Yeah. It's a nicer language, isn't it? I like German. I do. I love French, but I don't think German is as ugly a language as people like to say. I think spoken nicely is a beautiful language. Yeah, yeah. Particularly if you go back, my husband is British, so we go through German and English and I keep on telling him that there are so many writers from the last century, which he had never heard of, like Stefan Zweig and so on. They have the beautiful language, which is just simply not there anymore. But that is not my question. Having two more languages you can switch to, does it influence your perspective, your political perspective? Oh, definitely, definitely. Yeah. I think it just makes you have a broader view. I think if you're able to engage with other people, to pick up on their culture, to pick up on their music, to pick up on their history, in a way, in their language, I think it gives you a broader perspective. So, for example, on the podcast this week, we're going to be talking about the Franco-German relationship and Macron and Schultz. It's interesting and I could certainly, I could listen to the English language, I could read the Financial Times, I can do all that, but actually there's no substitute in a way for reading the French and German analysis and for reading and listening and speaking to people who really know and doing it in their own language. I'll spend part of today calling a couple of people that I know in French or German politics and just saying what you think and what should I emphasize. I think getting a sense of it in somebody else's language, I just think it broadens and deepens your perspective. It doesn't necessarily change your perspective, but it definitely broadens and deepens it. And it's also, we have to admit it, it's quite rare that in Britain that you find people who speak two other European languages. Well, it's very, it's quite rare and it's sad and one of the things I was not happy about that the government I worked for did was we downgraded the importance of language and education. I think it's always good to learn other languages and try to understand other languages. I think if I was back at school now, I think I'd probably learn Chinese and Arabic, maybe as opposed to French and German, but I love French and German. It's one of the best things I ever did was to, and I lost my German in, because I did French and German up to university level. And then I've always kept my French because I traveled to France a lot. We've got a house in France. I've worked in France, whereas I haven't had so many connections with Germany. And during, and of course in working in politics, although Schroeder didn't speak that great English, but most of the time you were speaking English. And certainly that was the sort of working language in the European context. Whereas, so I had lost a lot of my German and then during COVID, I did a couple of courses with the Goethe Institute online. And I've since, it is really a pity that I have not heard of that before that you speak German, because I joined the German Embassy in 2002. And one of my main tasks was to gather with the French and the Italians to promote our languages. And at the time, I think 4%, maybe 3% of the population spoke German, even less Italian, more French. And we were always looking for an angle to find somebody in a government who speaks either of the language. Ben Bradshaw, he did. Ben Bradshaw, he was at the Embassy. That's true. Yeah, but that's about it. Nick Clegg speaks several European languages. Okay, yeah, of course. He's also married to a Spanish interviewer. Yeah, he speaks Dutch. He speaks, I think he speaks German with a Dutch accent. He speaks French, Spanish, and I think he's got another language. I can't remember, it might be Italian, I can't remember. So yeah, but but but it's true. It's very, very rare. And it's quite embarrassing, actually, in Germany. I did a speech and I started it in German and people go, wow, that's amazing. And I'm thinking, every single one of you can speak English. And yet you're going, wow, he can speak German. Well, my German, my German is not as good as my French. So that means the French is very good then. I was thinking, they also, what we, if we don't know about other cultures, we tap into all those, what's a falle? And cases, cases. Yeah, we, or traps, traps, that's about traps. Yeah, for example, if I don't know anything else about Russia, for example, then we have Vladimir Putin, if I don't know anything about the culture and the literature and whatsoever, then it, it is just not mirroring the right idea, is it really? And it's much easier than to become a victim of propaganda. Yeah, yeah. No, that's, and that's again, why it's very, I think it is important to, to try to at least try to understand why people act differently. So, just to go back to the Franco-German thing. If you think that Macron is his main threat, politically at the moment, is from the far right and Marine Le Pen, and it gives you a better understanding of why he's more likely to have got himself into this position, where he's now seen as very hawkish on Ukraine, because she, you know, she's kind of proputen. And that's politically, he thinks that's politically damaging to her, and therefore he's going to emphasize that side of things. Then you look a little bit at the, the history of Germany and say, you think about how Willy Brandt handled the whole Ostpolitik and, you know, the Cold War, and it maybe gives you a better understanding of why Schultz wants to be seen as somebody more interested in peace than war. So, I think these things are, if you don't have that, at least that very basic perspective, there's a danger that you sit there thinking, why can't they all just be like us? Which they're not. Yeah, and I, yeah, and many here in, in, in Germany are probably like me, my grandfather fought in Stalingrad. So, the last thing I want to see is tanks at the Russian border. Yeah, or you, the last thing you want to see is a war between Russia and Germany. Yeah, no, that's, yeah. Whereas, you know, I think in, look, I don't think that I'm not sure the French want a war either, but you have a, you know, so people are saying, well, the Brits have given them their cruise missiles, the French have given the Ukrainians their cruise missiles, why weren't Germany, as you say, if you think that virtually every German family will know somebody who was, who would say, give exactly the same story as you've done, then it becomes a little bit more, perhaps a little bit more understandable. Yeah, which takes us back to the broader view. Looking at the year of 2024, we will see elections in 64 countries plus the EU. What are your expectations, both for Britain and the world? I mean, if, you know, I think, I think there's a really interesting paradox at the moment, we're having more elections, we're having more people voting this year around the world than ever in any year in history, but I'm not sure that the world is that much more democratic, if anything, it's less democratic than it was. I'm hoping that our election will be a big win for Labour. My worry is complacency and apathy, and the feeling of people thinking, oh, I can't be bothered, they're all the same, all the, and that stuff that I address in the book. It's not true that they're all the same, and it's not true that it doesn't matter who's in power, it matters a lot who's in power. So I'm hoping, I think this has been the worst government of my lifetime, but I can't, I can't, it'd be very hard to find a worse one. They deserve to be annihilated, and I hope they are, but, you know, we'll have to wait and see. And on your, on your tours through the country, where, where do you go to? Well, I go a lot to the places near where my footballer team are playing at the weekend. So I do tend to build, I tend to build weekends around where Burnley are playing. So I go all over the country. I mean, I, you know, I've been to most parts of the country. I've, I've, I've got a backlog of hundreds of schools that have asked me to go to. I try to get, I try to do a couple of week, and they can be anywhere. And I tend to go to, you know, obviously I live in London, so quite often London, the Southeast, but I try to get to the north of England, to Scotland, to Wales. I was in Northern Ireland not long ago. So just try, you know, I think it's just good to get around the country and, and try and get a proper, proper taste of the place. And then the country comes to you, doesn't it? When they, for example? Yeah, these, these events, well, we're doing a tour, Rory Stewart and I are doing a tour, assuming the election's in autumn, we've got a few dates in October where we do some pretty big venues. I mean, fill the O2 arena. I don't know if it's being filled yet, but I know it's well on its way. Yeah. I mean, this is really, really remarkable. Yeah, it's pretty. How does it feel? How does it feel for you? It's a bit odd, to be honest. It's a bit odd. I think it's good. I'm happy about it. I'd rather there were lots of people there than, you know, 25 people. It's an opportunity. It shows that people are interested and engaged in politics. I mean, you've got to remember, I've been doing the kind of talking, writing stuff for about 20 years now. So it's kind of, it feels like an extension of what I've done before for many, many years, but it's on a different scale when you're talking about the O2. If you had said to me, I mean, I did, it's true. I did do the festival hall, the Royal Festival Hall, not long after I left Downing Street, but that was when there was a lot of interest in me based on having just left. I think what is, I think now the combination and the podcast and the books and this sort of motto of disagreeing agreeably and the profile that the podcast has got is just, it's on a different level. And yeah, I'm enjoying it. It's good. And of course, when you left, there were also different reasons for interest in Alastair Campbell, wasn't it? A lot of people were frightened of you. Others accused you of all sorts of things. There was the Iraq war, there were all the troubles. So the Alastair Campbell now is more somebody who unites the country. Is that more accurate? I think that might be overstating it. I think I've got, look, I've still got a lot of enemies and I've still got a lot of, it makes me laugh how some of the right-wing newspapers still try to kind of do me in the whole time, which is, it genuinely makes me laugh. But no, look, there was definitely a period in my life when it was quite hard to be out and about without feeling that there was kind of quite a lot of aggravation around the corner. You still get a little bit of that. But generally, I think that people understand that I'm somebody who really believes what I say and fights for what I believe and genuinely wants politics to be better, thinks that it can be better, but thinks that it involves inspiring and motivating the next generation to get involved. So that's what I'm trying to do. And I think that people do, I think it's the same with Tony Blair. I mean, Tony was, you know, he's still hated by some people. But I think even the ones who hate him have a grudging respect that he kind of just keeps going. He's doing public service in a different sort of way. He's built up this huge institute which is doing all sorts of work around the world. And I think that we've all just kept going in our different ways. And I think that's, because the thing about politics today, you look at somebody like, you know, we mentioned David Cameron, there's David Cameron, I mean, he stopped being Prime Minister at an age well short of when most people end their careers, let alone when they start it, you know, so, and now, okay, he's back as Foreign Secretary, it's different. But when you look at Obama and how many years Clinton has been out of power, you know, this is a new phenomenon where people go into public service early, they leave public service relatively early because there's a kind of sell-by date for everybody. And then they have to decide, well, what do you do with the rest of your life? And what I decided to do with the rest of my life was to write, to broadcast, to campaign, to believe in certain causes and try to promote them and hopefully, you know, carry on having a nice life, making a good living, but doing it in a way that was kind of productive. I'm looking here at the question I wanted to ask you about how, whether we can explore a better political model, but I was just reminded of Kirstie Young called you recently in a Radio 4 interview, you are the epitome of reason. And which is basically the perfect example of rationality, right, logic, sound judgment, which I saw the BBC then when you left Downing Street and the BBC now calling you that shows you something has moved on, moved away, moved up, I don't know. And I'm not sure that every in the BBC would concur with her view. Look, I can still flare up and I can still, you know, get very, very agitated about different arguments, but I certainly think that the podcast has probably made me a bit more reflective. And I think it's down to, again, I think it's to do with time. So like you and I are talking now, we've been talking for an hour. When you know you have time to speak and to say things, to say things, you know, back to the point we made earlier about the formulae, Nate, travel a lot of our media. If you've got, you know, even something like Newsnight or the Today program, you know, if you're lucky, you'll get five minutes. And if you're in a discussion, you're going to get two or three to sort of, you know, make all the points you want to try to make when it's impossible. Whereas I think what the podcast form does, it gives people the confidence to know that they can speak at length, they can think aloud. They can say, oh, I haven't thought of that. You know, it's a very different format to the one that you and I have grown up with, which has been very much, you know, here's the question, here's the answer, here's the question that rebuts the answer. And here's the argument, let's get going. And, you know, it's just sort of often, at least in more, more heat than light. Yeah, yeah. And of course, especially when has a tabloid background, where you have just not much space for much to say. And it's reduced to headlines, which I think people today, I can't read that anymore. I just, yeah, yeah. Alisa, you reminded me that we talked for an hour. Can I ask you two more questions? Yeah. Okay. One would be, how does a better political model look like? Just for, maybe for Britain. Well, I think we need to restore, we need to restore basic standards. I think that politicians who lie should be essentially expelled from public life. I think that if you really fail, like Liz Truss did, likewise, you shouldn't really be, you shouldn't really have a platform. I think, so restoration of standard, basic standards in public life. I think that the political parties should become far more outward looking than they are. I, for one, would favor compulsory voting, lowering the voting age and proper political education in schools. I think that would give us the basics, from those things would give us the basis for a new framework. I think I'd love it if Keir Starmer, if he becomes prime minister, if he actually did review the whole political system, voting system, House of Lords, devolution, I think there's so much more that we could do to make Britain feel a more modern democracy. I think we feel quite tired as a democracy right now. I got you another 15 questions and I have to pick one. It's really difficult. I think I go with language, because you are the master communicator. How do we transition from an currently overwhelming language of conflict to a more powerful language of respect? I think by doing it, so again, one of the hopes I have for Keir Starmer, if there is a change of government, I think he's more serious than what we've had before. I think it's about re-establishing the sense that government is really serious and quite difficult and quite challenging. I was in Australia a couple of weeks ago and I was saying to the Australians there, I think they're often very down on their politics and their politicians, but actually I think the quality of politics there is higher in many regards. I think one of the reasons is that particularly within state governments, I think there is a, I have a sense of a greater depth and seriousness. I think it's about restoring politics as a serious and noble calling. That's very difficult when you've had characters like Johnson and Truss around. It's very difficult when you've had all the corruption that there's been. It's very difficult when you see some of the characters that succeed, particularly somebody like Trump. I think politics is a serious, I think we have to transition from this sense that politics is all about the three-word slogan or the abuse and actually just something. I think we need a generation of particular leaders to come along and say, you know what, this is really hard. I'm going to do my best. I'm going to provide leadership. I'm going to explain what the challenges are. Yes, I'm going to make difficult decisions, but I'm not going to treat you like idiots and just pretend that everything can be solved with a three-word slogan because it can't. Hmm. And I think the rest is politics is probably doing good work in that direction. Well, that's very, very kind of you. So, thank you there. Alistair, that was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful hour. I know I did a lot and I'm not at least surprised about your success and I wish you even more and that there are more bobs who actually, yeah, take the action and do what they learned and yeah, and hopefully you keep on communicating in all kinds of ways to make country and society a bit better. Well, that's very kind of you to say so. I hope you keep on writing your books as well. Thank you very much. Okay, see you soon. You've been listening to a special English edition of Degorsa Neustadt, a German podcast series by Zabilla Barton, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who are committed to making our world smarter, greener and fairer. For more information, please visit www.zabillabardon.com and the official site of the World Economic Forum.