You're listening to Miller and Milton coming at you from the Floor Meisters Studios. Floor Meisters keeping it real and now here's Mark Miller and David Moulton. Hour two of Miller and Moulton on this Thursday, final day of the NHL regular season. a week from today, the sports world will the NFL draft. We'll see just how active it is. I think it'll be a goober draft and by that, you need to be at the offensive tackles, Edge Rushers and wide receivers and wide receivers that are not big names. It's one thing David, when we have guys, you there's been times in which we've had some sexy receivers out there. Receivers that we knew via college that were big players and had big moments. So, I, you know, receivers can be sexy but I'm not sure that you know, KC Concepcion is a is a sexy guy in this draft that Omar Cooper is a guy that people are getting excited about. You know, I mean, you've got Tyson because the kid from Arizona State, there are a lot of people that think he can be really good but you know what, one Ohio State guy, one USC guy and then after that, it's a bunch of guys that didn't play a lot of big games if you know what I mean. So, that's the draft, at least the first round and then you'll get a whole lot of corners and running backs. after that. So, I'm more interested in what happens at the bottom end of the draft and this is you, you, you and Pat have made me geek out because now I'm looking at mock drafts and going, okay, who, these guys that are doing two round mocks, who are the guys in the second round that are projected to be possible first round mocks, and I don't know how much we buy into Mel Kuiper anymore, David. I get it but he's got Denver in the second round getting Caleb picks 62. This is a guy that Pat has going late in the first round in his draft and I don't know if Pat's right. I don't know if Mel Kuiper's right because there are medical issues with banks. So, that, you know, these receivers that we're talking about, if the run receivers drop, does, you know, Kuiper has, I believe, Arizona, jumping back into the first round to get Ty Simpson late. No one else does but it's not uncommon to see a team if they want that quarterback in order to make sure the Jets don't get him with pick 33, you've got to go back into the first round to get him. So, I do think where you like the trades, David, and the back end of the draft is where we're going to get the substantial amount of the trades. Well, I definitely think you'll have one and you hit on it, Mark. I think it'll be the Ty Simpson trade. Alright, because there's a lot of talk that the Jets are going to take them. Therefore, if you are a team that is really interested in him, like the Giants were with Jackson Dart and the Giants were there and they made sure they got ahead of certain teams who they knew were either negotiating trades or could possibly take him. And so, the Giants jumped back in, I think at 25 and took Dart. Mark, it wouldn't surprise me if the Jets don't wait till 33. If the Jets move up three, four spots and three, four, three, four, three, because otherwise, they have to punt entirely this year and get their quarterback next year. And you know, David, when I look at the teams that are drafting late, the Kansas, if Kansas City doesn't make a move with Dallas, let's just, you know, let's say Dallas makes a move with Cleveland. That's seemingly everybody is and then they have picked 29. Don't you think that's a look at, I don't think the Dolphins are going to take a quarterback but they need one. You know, if this guy doesn't work, Willis doesn't work out. Do they, you know, there's been talked to. So, I would want to get ahead of Miami. So, you know, would Kansas City who needs players, who needs bodies, would they be willing to go to 34 with a little extra punch in the draft to give them a chance to make a move to the game to me? Probably all depends on who has been taken and who has fallen. You know, Pat mentions all the time. You do the deal when it's simple. You put a list of five guys. If you still have five guys that you really want, then you can move down four spots and then just keep doing the math. If you only have a list of four guys, then you can only get a list of four guys, etc. We were doing that yesterday with the Cowboys. We were trying to figure out, you know, if you're the we were doing essentially during two commercial breaks, we did two Cowboys mock drafts. Could they sit at twelve and get their guy and both times we came to the conclusion, they ain't going to be happy with what's on the board at twelve. because we think that they want, you know, we think they want to put someone to quarterback that defense, you know, wear the green dot and and be their guy for eight to ten years and most think styles can be that guy. So, and a lot of people have styles to Washington and that's seven. So, you can see what you can see where the Cowboys are very interested in moving to six. Now, I don't think that's going to be a good answer. I think that's going to be a good answer for someone that they consider to be an elite defensive player who's still on the board and Washington's defense was old and bad last season and so I Washington I think is smiling. They're like, whatever anybody does, we'll be fine. We've done all the mock drafts. There's especially with Mendoza going and what? It's Jeremiah Love. There's besides those two go. So, then what? Four defensive players come off the board. Okay. I mean, I think they think there's at least five good defensive players in this draft and even if Washington shocks us, David, and goes receiver, this is where to me, the Cowboys have to make this move to Cleveland because let's just say for you know what in giggles, Washington decides to take defense. I think they go defense but let's just say they do just for sake of argument. Well, the other team that was linked with Tate mostly is the New Orleans Saints. You think they're going receiver after Tate goes? Hell no. They need defense too. So, whatever defensive player Washington doesn't take if they go offense, you've got to believe that the Saints are going to take and the Saints would be happy. They're like, oh, wow. It's even a little bit of a loss. I thought we'd get. I'm curious about where you think the floor is for Bain. because I know where it would be for me. I mean, I'm all in on the guy and if I'm drafting for the Giants, I'm taking them at five. I don't think that's going to happen though. That's the ceiling by the way to me. Right. Like, that's as high as he gets it. You know, if you're right, I don't think anybody one through four is taking him. I don't think Tennessee would take him at six. I think it's a loss and you have a choice. Bain or Styles. Who are you taking? Well, first off, I don't think either's there at twelve for what? No, no, well, we were just I'm sorry. We were talking about the Cowboys moving up to six. Yeah, the Cowboys move up to six. David, I would take Bain because I think he's he's an interesting player and that one, he's a game record. I mean, you know, look at I've never seen him in a line play but did you watch this guy? I mean, he was a freak and what you and Pat have me very intrigued by is you can move him on the inside. So, he's kind of a multifaceted rusher and there's not a lot of those out there and it's a position that I think is of more value than the linebacker position but David, you asked me what his floor is. I think it's the Miami. I mean, look it. I I think it's the Miami. But I can't see. Let's just say styles and Bain slip a little bit. I can't see those two players getting past the Bengals and dolphins if you know what I mean. Agree. So, eleven is my spot and that's if Kansas City doesn't take Bain because I think they would too. I think they do the happy dance if he was there at nine. Yeah, I think it's Kansas City and it's the absolute floor for a couple of guys is you just can't imagine that both Cincinnati and Miami would pass on certain guys. Miami needs a whole roster and Cincinnati needs defense desperately. Now, if Bains happens to be there at eleven, if you're the cowboys, do you just have to give something to Miami to make sure they don't draft him and they don't take him? Would that make you angry? and you know, I mean, we've got someone in the chat room because yes, because of the the short arms and a two year old incident, there are mock drafts that have Bain slipping. I've not seen him slip. You know, think about it. If he's there at fifteen, Bucks fan and you don't take him. Holy Toledo. I don't know if they do the trade with Dallas and he's somehow some way still on the board at twelve. Browns fans would be like, I know he's great value but you went defense with your first two picks last year our offense is dreadful. Don't take him. You want to trade again? Fine but do not take him. Uh Sapfel to twelve. No, that was a little he went from one to twelve. Oh, by the way, isn't that kind of funny when we look back right now, the fact that plots basically legal everywhere and guys had a free fall in the draft because they smoked weed. Yeah. They don't even test for it now. No, I mean, unless you're a habitual user of drugs, you don't, you get tested once and they're, we're good. Knock yourself out and they desperately needed, John Randall needed help. Oh, we're going to take Warren Sap right? It's like Derek Alexander, defensive end Florida State. Denny Green came out, not only was asked and he said, well, we had Alexander ahead of Sap on our board. Now, that could technically be because well, once the marijuana we took Sap off the board but then he was asked, do you think Alexander's a better player and he said, it wasn't a bad draft for the bucks. They got Sap and you know the Derek Brooks in the first round that year. That's what the Miami Dolphins are thinking. That's the type of players they need. That's what the Cleveland Browns are thinking. These teams with multiple first round picks have to be successful. Miller and You're listening to Miller and Moulton and now here's Mark Miller and David Moulton. Twenty-one minutes past the hour. Bob Harrick to join us in a little more than 15 minutes to discuss the apparent demise of the L. I. V. Tour. What's being reported as of the end of the year. It will be financed to the end of the season but that the money behind the tours decided we need to spend it elsewhere on other things. So, there you have it. It'll be a six billion dollar failed investment. And I wonder Mark if it will in any way will people try to down the road give it any credit at all the way they have given to USFL. The ABA the WHA. Okay. As time went on those leagues got more popular. They were given more credit for what their contributions were to the NBA, the NHL and the NFL. Does it matter what oil prices are for that to happen? It might just say it might. David, we admit on this show when we are wrong. Mm hmm. And we also probably talk more about television ratings than we do on the national show. Agreed. Were we wrong and was our audience is our audience wrong as well because our audience is anti NBA. They are they've let us know. I mean, we put up what do you watch more NHL or NBA? Gary Betman should come on this show monthly for how much our audience loves the NHL versus the NBA. It's not close. It's not talking and they don't like the NBA. There's not five spots on earth that you really can say that. I mean, what Buffalo? But did you see what the NBA has put out with what their television ratings were a year to year? Yes. They are claiming an 86% jump in ratings year to year. 86% in the regular season. Everybody's ratings are up. Everybody's. No one's had a downturn. They talked about how much better the All Star Game ratings were than in recent past years. Yeah, the All Star Game was on TNT. This year was on a network. So, I mean, people are doing a deep dive into the NBA. How much of this is taking numbers and exploiting them by the NBA? And how much of this is real and you and me, most of the people who listen to this show and many a national commentator, okay? Because if these numbers are real, the Colin Cowherds of the NBA, they're going to talk about the NBA. Exactly. Because they stopped talking about the NBA because they started to believe that not only is the product not good, but that people aren't watching it like they used to. Therefore, I need to talk about it less. And that's not what the NBA came out and said in the last 48 hours. No, and the timing, I think it's better because for the last two nights, you know what's been really good? The NBA. Mm-hmm. Yep. Philadelphia pulled away from Orlando late, but that was a game late in the fourth quarter. Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, three minutes left in the game. That's still a basketball game. I mean, they, you know, they made a big three with about 90 seconds left and then, okay, it's over. They're going to play the game tonight. Mm-hmm. And obviously, the second game with Steph was a good game. Big comeback and who wins? Maybe the, you know, I guess, you know, I don't know who the most popular player in that league is anymore, but Steph is still up there. Not saying best. I'm saying most popular because LeBron's polarizing. He's probably the most popular still. I don't know, but Steph's pretty damn popular. And what did he do with Steph? He was a great player. The night before, both play in games were terrific. They were. You know, it's an interesting question. Maybe we'll do it during the summer when we need to kill time on a show and there's not as much to talk about. But if you could go back in time, okay? Not now, but you can just go back in time. Do do do do. Sorry. I just thought it needed a sound and a lot of people were interested in the draft and both LeBron and Steph were in that draft. And you now have seen their careers and what they've done and what they've contributed and what fans think of them. If you own the team, which one would you choose? Well, on the other side of it is you're you if you just take what they did in their careers, you know, you can't I mean, you can't take the right owner that would have kept LeBron through all of it because I would take LeBron if he was playing with my team the whole time. But think about it. LeBron played for a bunch of teams. Right. That played for one. If you're an owner, Steph played for one franchise. I mean, he made you more money. Right. League made more money off LeBron. But I would argue that the Warriors made more money than the Cats. If you know what I mean. But for as changed the game. The league didn't shoot threes like that before Steph Curry. They didn't. Now you could argue it changed it for the worse, but he's also made the little guy, the guy who can shoot the three look 20 years later. Those guys are everywhere in college. It's all because of him. But to your earlier question, that, you know, because he changed the game, does that help you more as an owner? I'm literally talking about I own the Warriors or I own the calves. You know, that's but also is that has there been anyone more likeable than him? No, I don't likeable players. David, he's on the short list of most likeable guys to ever play sports really and truly is. And if you're an owner, I don't know. It's interesting. I think it's an interesting question. A buddy of mine talks about it all the time. And but Mark, do you believe what the NBA came out and said? Mostly because here's why I'm going to David. If we're going to come on this show and talk about how great television numbers are for every damn sport out there. And while we think the numbers are a little jaded because of the new rating system, I can't sit here and say, well, hockey's killing it. And well, this college basketball is killing it and this sports going it. But the NBA numbers, they lie. I can't. The 170 million number, they said that's how many people watch their games this year. That one I don't buy. That's half the country. I think officially last census, we're at like 330. Okay, that's over half the country has watched a part of an NBA game this year. I don't believe that for a second. I think that you add up all the clicks. If you know what I mean, you can get to 170. But that, you know, you're counting the same person a few times. But just the simple 16% jump in average viewers for games on NBC, ABC, Peacock, Amazon Prime, it's averaging 1.78 million a game. It's the highest in seven years. Yeah, I believe that. Do I think the new ratings have helped? Do I think the fact that it's on more networks now helped? Absolutely. I was going to say, is that the difference going from Turner to NBC? Because you went from two, you know, you had a network and multiple cable. Now you've got two networks and streaming. So I do, you know, look at, I'm not, I'm not going to sit there and defend every other sports entity for growing and say, well, the NBA numbers just aren't true. That's asinine. Agreed. Agreed. So the timing, though, I think is perfect. Because here's the best time of the year for the league, you know, when everybody plays and there's no load management. And it's amazing guys actually play on back to back nights. Miller and Molten, Bob Herrick next. You're listening to Miller and Molten. And now here's Mark Miller and David Molten. 22 minutes to the top of the hour. Miller and Molten, Miller and Molten.com, Miller underscore Molten on X. He's authored another book. It'll be released nationally on May 5th. You can preorder it Amazon Barnes and Noble Target. Some of the places you can preorder and get it at. It's Tiger V Jack, the great debate. It's Bob Herrick. He covers golf for Sports Illustrated. Follow him on X and Bob Herrick, H-A-R-I-G. Bob, best of luck with the book. You know, we'll help you along. We appreciate what you've contributed to the show over the years. A simple question to begin as best you can tell what's going on with LIV. Yeah, boy, I wish I knew all the answers to that question. I think based on what I've learned here in the last 36 hours, look, they're going to go on. They're playing today in Mexico City. I would be shocked if they didn't play the rest of their season. But there's clearly some distress financially. Not that the PIF can't afford it. They can. It's that it appears they have decided that they don't want to keep funding it to the level that they are. And, you know, with when you're an entity that has struggled to come up with major revenue streams that are needed in sports today, that's a problem. I mean, financial disclosures pointed out earlier this year that they kicked in another $260 some million dollars on February 1st, the PIF did. Well, maybe they've told them that's it. You know, so I'm sure that that can sustain them this year. But when you have $30 million per se every week and a $50 million per se at your team event, you know, do the math. That that that infusion barely covers that. And there's way more costs beyond that. So look, with there's a lot of smoke. At one point yesterday, there were reports that they were going to pull the plug this week. I never fully bought into that. But the fact that live was not responding to legitimate media reports throughout the day just fueled that. I finally, you know, got some, you know, indications from them after 6pm Eastern time yesterday. I mean, I had started on Tuesday night at reaching out to get some sort of clarification from them. So, you know, it's a I think we all wondered how long they'd they'd want to keep spending this kind of money. And it reminds me of a great George Allen, the old football coach, coach for the who were then called the Washington Redskins long ago. I remember reading this and it just always struck me. It was funny. He was a coach and general manager and he said, I had an unlimited budget, but I exceeded it. And, you know, it's kind of the same thing, right? Like they've got all, you know, live as a rounding error to the PIF. But at some point you look and you go, look at what we're spending here. And, you know, the PIF just announced yesterday. I mean, I don't know if this is the timing or not, but, you know, some new objectives with their with their with their fund, you know, they're invested in companies all over the world. It's a huge sovereign wealth fund. But their mandate was to be more locally centered to more and and and so and live golf wasn't mentioned. But maybe you can look at that and say, Hey, they're pulling in the reins, but the war hasn't helped. But the old, you know, I think they're a little bit spooked about that. And here we are. It's trickled down into, you know, a multi million dollar golf entity and and caused a lot of concern yesterday. If you were to look at it and try to pick out where they fail, because there have been crowds at a lot of their events, the people that I know that went over to Miami raved about the experience. But I know they never garnered much of a TV audience, but they never seem to have sponsorship. So when you look at it from a failing standpoint, who steered them wrong and where did they go wrong with not being able to create any revenue? Yeah, that's that's there's a lot to unpack there. You know, I give them, you know, a little bit of a one way in that was going to take some time. It is a startup. I think one of the one of the ways they went wrong early on was pushing the team concept so quickly and not letting that develop. Because why don't not not one of their franchises has been sold. That was the idea. That was a huge revenue going to be a huge revenue source for live. They were going to sell their teams and those, you know, the Capans were getting 25% equity in the team. But so let's say, let's say they sold a team for $100 million. And let's say you, you sold some of the teams for that. Well, that's a billion dollars back to live, you know, minus the 25% to the captains. That's a huge chunk. And then the teams become responsible for the players, for the travel and live just runs the league and they share the TV revenue and things like that with the teams. Well, that hasn't happened. They're five years in. They've not sold one team. That's been that has hurt them. It hasn't helped that they've not found TV windows to to be separate from the PJ tour, which is why I always thought they needed a deal more than tour. Because they needed the pathways that would allow you and me and others if we wanted to, to watch them as opposed to competing. So without a robust TV deal, I mean, think about it in sports. There is no major sport worldwide that exists without a huge TV deal. I think most people know that all the salaries of players in the NFL are paid for before they open the doors by the TV rights deal that the NFL has. The teams get a chunk of money that covers their salaries and then some, you know, that's that's amazing when you think about it. You know, obviously MLB and and the NBA and even the NHL, they have TV deals that cover a good chunk of the bills. Liv doesn't have that. I mean, it by all by by all reports and what you can gather that deal with Fox is just it's very modest. Liv pays for the production costs. Liv pays the salaries of the broadcast team and the travel. So like what they're getting back, you know, is it's probably doesn't they probably don't even break even on that. Whereas the PGA tour, again, look, it's different, a lot more tournaments, but they have $700 million domestic rights deal. That $700 million would cover all their purses. They would double double it, you know, and still the tour needs robust sponsorship to make money. So that's that's a couple of starting points where where I think they've they've struggled. And if you look at some of their events, their sponsors are PIF related companies, Riyadh, air, a Ramco, those are those are those are Saudi owned companies. So it's it's taking money from one pocket and putting it into the other. That's it's not really helping their bottom line that much. Is Bob Herrick covers golfers, sports illustrative, follow him on exit Bob Herrick, H-A-R-I-G coming out on May 5th, his latest book Tiger V. Jack, the great debate. You can preorder it on Amazon. It'll be available at Barnes and Noble and Target stores May 5th. That's less than three weeks. Be a great Father's Day gift. All right, let's go forward. How do you think the PGA tour is going to respond besides gloating, which they should, to liv going under? Do you think they're going to offer the guys? The Kepke deal? The Patrick Reed deal? Or since they decided to stay? They're gonna be hard line. Yeah, I think that's interesting. In light of this recent news, I think if if they if they believe that live is going to go under at the end of the year, I think they would just wait for that to happen first. Like they I don't think they're as long as there's a possibility that live is existing. They are not going to back off their current plan. They need to have a deterrent still from people going over there. And that's why that's why they've done it this way. Like I was actually just in Bradenton yesterday. I went down there to the senior PGA and Pat Perez and Henry Stenson are playing. And it's their first time in the, you know, playing senior golf and Perez, who who was on live for three years and then last year did broadcast stuff is not allowed to play the champions tour this year. The reason he's playing the senior PGA is because it's a major. He can play three majors. He cannot play the the tour run events. And even as a broadcaster last year, they viewed that as a violation of their media right. So he is not allowed to play until he suspended basically until first of all, after his last live event a year. And then they tack down the rest of the year because he played his first year while still a member of the PGA tour. He never resigned. I mean, and they're holding to that. You know, I mean, we're talking about Pat Perez, you know, a guy who won three times on the PGA tour, but they are holding firm on that. I don't think they will back off any of that stuff until unless live for sure is is done. As long as they might smell blood in the water right now. And they may be behind the scenes might go to some players and say, Hey, look, if you quit now, but again, that's tough for those players. Most of them are under contract to live. I'm not sure they want to violate their contract. So I think you'll kind of see the status quo until until we know a little more. Alright, let's just say live folds. Will every player be treated the same that's leaving live or will the Dishambo's and the ROMs and the Cam Smiths and maybe fill for the Champions Tour get treated differently than everyone else? I think they'll do it based on the easiest way for them to do it is based on what what will be their eligibility. The Dishambo, ROM, Cam Smith have eligibility on the PGA tours major winners. Those five year exemptions of, you know, would would allow them to play. And so I think they would treat them like they treated Kepka. Somebody like I'll just throw a name out there, Thomas Peters, Charles Howell. Those guys don't have status. Charles Howell would have past champion status, which doesn't doesn't doesn't get you much. There's no way they can just allow them right back because you've got a whole membership that didn't leave and now doesn't isn't going to want the competition. You know, so I think they have to they have to treat them rather strongly. They you know, they they they will probably do the same thing they did with Kepka. They won't be allowed to take part in this player equity program. They might not be allowed to get sponsor invites to signature events. There might be some period of time that they have to sit out. I think they'll be pretty hard line because there's not the room for them anyway. You know, it's it's a tour where you know you've got to earn your way and if you don't have status, I think they're going to have Monday qualify, maybe sponsor invites to lesser event and and then or you know, go to the go to Q school. He's Bob Herrick. And he's got a beat that is not boring these days. He covers golf worldwide for sports illustrated si.com. You can follow Bob on exit Bob Herrick, h a r i g. Remember May 5 Tiger v Jack, the great debate available preorder at Amazon and you'll find it in Bards and Noble and Target beginning May 5th. Bob, thanks for doing this, particularly on short notice, safe travels and we'll talk down the road. Thanks so much. I appreciate you having me. Have a good one. Bob Herrick. Joining us once again on Miller Moulton brought to you on the American Paint Supplies hotline. You're one stop shop for all your coding needs. Well, there you have it. I mean, he thinks they're going to be pretty hard. And the players he mentioned don't do it. You know, I love hat makes me laugh. He's like a regular guy out there. He wears it on his sleeve. I enjoy watching him play. I enjoyed watching him play at the Masters. I like seeing his highlights on you know, on different social video things out there. But the past champions, the major champions, he says, you know, they still have eligibility. So it will be different for the Camp Smiths, the John Romes and the Bryson DeChampos of the world. I wonder if they'll ever make nice with Phil again. And will he make nice with them? Both networks would fall all over themselves to have them as their lead analyst. And like you said, Mark, the tickets he would sell in the Champions Tour. Oh my goodness.
