Chris Appleton: Your Roots Don’t Define You

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. When I did the Jay Shetty podcast, I saw a lot of people comment saying like, you always knew you were gay, you pulled that woman through like hell. And honestly, it's not the truth. At a young age, when I was told I was these things that seemed bad, before I'd really kind of delved into it, I was very focused on just not being that. I didn't really entertain it. Your brain is really powerful, how you can just like unsee something, but only for so long. You know, when I came out at 26, it was so hard. And then not only was I trying to understand that, I was trying to explain it to other people. Yeah. The people I loved the most, I was also hurting. And I felt that I was bringing that shame I had as a child onto them. I felt like, oh, they're going to get bullied. They're going to get picked on now. They're going to have a gay dad. It's going to be hell. That to me was the limit. I couldn't comprehend hurting my own children. Because all you want to do as a dad or as a parent is to protect your kid. And I tried everything to try and get rid of it. And I couldn't. I did try and end my life and it didn't work. I think when I laid in that hospital bed, I was in there for a while and I remember thinking to myself, well, what now? Like I couldn't have hated myself anymore. I couldn't have wanted to be anyone else than me. And I realized I'd spent my whole life trying to be somewhere else or be someone else. And I think in that moment, I just surrendered. I just sort of said, what's the opposite I could do? If I'm going to be here, I can't change it. But what about if I just accept it? But step one is just saying, this is who I am. Hello, you cutie little lemon drops. Happy Wednesday or whatever day of the week it is that you are listening to this. I hope your week is off to a great start and I cannot tell you how excited I am for today's episode with celebrity hairstylist and author Chris Appleton. I've been a huge fan of Chris for so long, so this episode really means a lot to me. Chris is known for shaping some of the most iconic beauty moments in pop culture, working with names like Kim Kardashian, Jennifer Lopez, and Ariana Grande, but honestly, there is so much more to his story. In this episode, Chris gets deeply personal about the role fear has played in his life, from the fear of disappointing the people he loved most while coming out to his ex-partner and children, to the shame he carried for years and what ultimately helped him heal. He shares what led him to a breaking point in a suicide attempt, how he found his way back, and what self-care looks like for him now. Chris has such an inspiring story and I am so excited for you guys to hear it. Chris, welcome to The Squeeze. Thank you for having me. So exciting to be here. This is exciting because I've watched you on the internet for a very long time. So I'm excited to sit in a good way, in a good way. What did you see? Don't believe it. In a good way. No, I'm excited to dive into your book today because I feel like there's a lot of really important things that you cover and are really just like vulnerable and honest about. So thank you for coming and chatting with me today. I'll be honest, it was pretty brutal. Really? So, you know, things enable for me to be able to feel like I had a place to speak to people, to help people. I felt like I had to be really vulnerable as to why I validate as having that voice. Yeah. So just going that deep and that dark. I said things I never thought I'd say. Oh, wow. Yeah. Once things that were so private, I don't think the closest people in my life knew about. And then I'm telling the whole world. Yeah. So it was a vulnerable place to be. but I think I had to come from a place of vulnerability to help others feel inspired to want to change or make a move or just for anyone that really is ever just looked in the mirror and been like, is this it? You know, like, is this, is this or a job that they're unhappy in or a marriage that they don't know how they ended up in an unhappy marriage or friendships or financial situation. It's there's so many lessons in there to help people. And that's what the reader will find is it's, it's a way of kind of making your comeback at any age, which is, I think, really exciting. And it's kind of what I did as a career. And I've managed to do it with some amazing people, which people obviously know the names and faces of the people I've worked with, which is great. I'm very grateful for that. But also I've worked with every type of client, like clients in a salon, a client that lost their head to cancer, a model on the runway, and like I say, celebrities. And universally, I saw a similar pattern of what happened when someone sat down in my chair and they looked in the mirror. Yeah. Because it's the most vulnerable time. For sure. Yeah. Like, I think you look in the mirror, like, on average, 10 to 15 times a day. It's really rare that you stop and actually really look, though. Like, you glance and you see yourself, you brush your teeth, you do your hair, whatever. But it's not very often that people actually really look and be like, is this, how did I get to this? Like, is this who I am? And like I said, if anyone's ever looked in the mirror and wondered if there's something more, maybe it's like I said in your job or maybe it's a visual thing about how you look. It's really nice to start the conversation of how you can make a change. Yeah. I feel like with hairstylists specifically, like I feel like I was just resonating with what you're saying when I get my hair done and I have the cape on and I'm looking at myself in the mirror. And most of the time when I'm getting my hair done, I have like no makeup on like and I'm just sitting there with this cape and I'm staring at myself and I'm like, oh my gosh, is this what I look like? Inner hater, the voice in your head. We all have the inner, I talk about that in the book. I talk about the inner hater. It's awful. You sit down in that chair and you're like, Jesus, am I, is this, is the lighting bad or am I really looking this old? Or are these gray hairs? And you're like, one side of my lip goes up and the other side goes down. And you're like, am I, am I old? Am I kind of old? You know, it's like the voice is savage. It's rare that someone sits in the chair and is like, wow, I look fantastic. I'm going to leave. Thank you very much. Yeah. Normally takes after the appointment is over and then you feel better about yourself once your hair is done. I think sitting in the chair, like they say your hairstylist is like a therapist because there's something about when you sit, you're like, okay, let me see. And let's see what the possibilities are. And a lot can happen in that chair. A lot has happened in my chair. Yeah, I bet. What made you decide that now was the time? Cause you said it was definitely hard for you to do. What made you be like, okay, now this is the time for me to do this? I've been doing that since I was 13. Um, I think now at 42, uh, most people know Chris Appleton, if you like, as like working with celebrities, um, quite polished looking Instagram, you know, like, Oh wow. It looks like he's got it all together. And I think the reality of it is my life has been far from that. Um, people perceive you as successful because you work with the people you work with again my life has been far from that and I've spent much more of my life in shame and in sadness than I have in light and joy and you know success so I really felt it was healthy to like pull back the conversation um and pull back the curtain behind like the glitz and the glamour of it all yeah and show the real me like the cost of success what it took to get there what it's actually like working with celebrities what it's like you know um being trolled on social media or what it's like um being lost yourself being in the darkest point of your life yourself and again like i say how to kind of come back from that and um to not be identified by your roots they're always a part of you we had like a quick conversation before we started where i was saying like my roots really used to define me yeah so much so that I completely abandoned myself. I didn't even realize I did it. I made a career out of making people look in the mirror and see themselves. And there was a real power in that. I remember when my mom was my first client. I was like, I think I was nine years old. I'd do a hair because we were really poor as kids. My mom and dad had quite a bad upbringing and we didn't have a lot. So I used to try and make my mom look like a Hollywood star. I'd wanted to try and look glamorous. yeah I was never very good at school I was dyslexic so it wasn't something that I felt like I was ever seen I was kind of told I was stupid but when I did hair I felt so alive and I felt um that when like my mom stood up and looked in the mirror she responded she stood taller like her shoulders went back and for a minute she forgot she was a working woman five and she saw something new something that she hadn't seen before and that to me was so amazing I was like wow, this is like a superpower. You get to make people really feel something. So I kind of get to do that now with, you know, amazing clients, which has been great. But I also have done it with people that have lost their hair because of cancer. And I realized that identity is such a big thing. Even the people that play it off and it's like, I've had the same hair all my life. I don't care. Yeah. But that same hair has been really significant to your identity. If you think about celebrities, like think about Anna Wintour, the 13 you'd probably iconically know is Habob. yeah ariana grande the ponytail yeah you know kim k the long sleek dark hair j-lo that kind of like golden balayage pop of color um with the curtain bangs you know um lady gaga platinum blonde marilyn munro platinum you know yeah hair is it says so much about you even if you want to play it down as you don't care about your appearance hair says so much about your identity and the person you are and a lot of people don't even know why they've got what they've got yeah it's usually because a version of themselves as a kid, someone said like, you suit bangs, you don't suit not having bangs or you only suit being blonde. You don't suit being brunette. So what I noticed when people were sat in my chair is like, we would talk about different options. Cause I was never that kind of hairstylist that was like, okay, what are we doing today? Same as usual. I was always like, all right, well tell me like about you. And they were like, well, okay. Um, you know, so tell me where you're at, where have you, you know, ever wanted to go? Like, is there anyone's hair you aspire to look like or is there anyone yeah and they'll be like well yeah you know i love this look but i know i know i can't do that yeah and i'd be like well why who told you you can't do that and they'll be like well i i just know i can't do that and they wouldn't even really know and probably once like 20 years ago someone said that yeah this is who you are and then you end up carrying it your whole life yeah and it's not necessarily even yours you've just inherited it and that's why we called the book your roots don't define you because so much of our life we let it definers yeah and it's about knowing that you can reinvent yourself um at any age and yes a lot of it is about external so there is that cosmetic look to it it's kind of what i do and what people know but so much of it and the real heart of it is internal because once you get that alignment of external and internal and they are aligned yeah is really when the magic happens and i think that's what i created with the people i worked with and everyone that's in my chair universally whether they lost their hair due to cancer, if they were forming at the Super Bowl or if they were walking down a show on the runway. When those things are aligned is when the magic happened, which is when like a cancer patient would turn around to me and say, I feel like I can fight this now. Or, you know, someone could go out there and perform at the Super Bowl and feel amazing and feel confident, feel great, you know, feel like she's ready to face the world. Or, you know, a model that's insecure about the way she looks and she's going to walk down the runway for the first time. It worked universally. So it really isn't a superficial thing. It's much more internal. Yeah, I love it. Lately, my life has felt like a constant juggling act between work, social plans, travel, trying to move my body and still show up for myself. There are so many days where my own health ends up taking a backseat. I'll look up and realize I've been running around all day answering emails, hopping from one thing to the next and haven't actually fueled myself in the way that feels good. 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So you mentioned a little bit about your mom and growing up. You said you started hair when you were young. Did you always want to pursue hair? Like, what made you decide to dream big? because I think that's a big through line throughout your book is growing up and being put in a situation that maybe the odds were against you and really believing in yourself to chase your dreams. What was that like growing up for you? I mean, growing up in Northern, like, I say Northern people were like, no, it's the Midlands, it's the Midlands, I think it's right in the middle. It's not London, it's not LA, it's not New York. and when I was a kid I got a job at the age of 13 in a hair salon and because of that I was really quickly labeled as being gay there were people like guys and girls would be like oh you're gay and I'd be like no I'm not I just do hair but I didn't I didn't even I didn't know about I wasn't really thinking about sexuality at the time yeah but very quickly I was labeled as something that was bad and it wasn't as though anyone was saying it in a nice way they were like, you get, you know, it was, I was like, I don't want to be that. And I was also told I was stupid a lot because at school I was dyslexic. So I didn't really take an information off the board like everyone else did. I needed to more talk about it and bring color to it. Like I needed it to be out there and alive, but that wasn't the done way. So I was just labeled stupid, stupid, and put in the special needs class. So I think hair was the first time that I really found something that I was good at. So when I found something I was good at, I was like, I'm going to be the best of this. I'm going to, I'm going to be the best of this. I'm going to show everyone. Yeah. So I think you're really focused. I really, I guess, unconsciously abandoned myself. I left that person that I felt was bad or wrong and really just got into a mindset of like, I need to be successful. I need to get out of this. I need to show everyone and prove everyone I'm wrong. yeah and it's actually really sad to I guess go back to that little boy that I did abandon and part of healing was going back to that because for a long time I didn't even like going back to England I'd made the big move to America yeah my life changed I would go back to England and have a panic attack I literally would be hyperventilated I did not know what was wrong with me I didn't know what I did I wasn't conscious I was going to feel that way but I landed and I remember I started to see some of the things that I recognized and I was like, I can't be here. I need to get back to the life I've just made. Yeah. Because so much of my childhood was, I was so bullied, like aggressively, you know, like spat on, punched, beating up, like I hadn't done anything. I wasn't even, I wasn't even gay. I wasn't even having a relationship. I had more girlfriends than I did anything. But because I did something different, I was labeled at that. So I think I really got focused on trying to like prove everyone that I was not these things that I was told. But in doing that, like I say, I really abandoned myself. And I think I feel really sad about that. That, you know, and I think a lot of people do that. A lot of people are shamed into being a version of themselves or told they should do this. Even in career move, it's like, you shouldn't do that. You should do this. And that's why I put the book together. I put the book together to really help people shed some of these opinions and views that have been put on them that they carry. and they don't even really realize. So it's a little sort of handbooking to looking in the mirror and being able to actually see yourself for who you are and also more importantly, who you want to be. And there's really great steps in there that actually take you along into seeing that and finding out who you are. And I think once you see yourself and once you look, you can't unsee it. A lot changes. And you really realize how you've abandoned yourself. You realize how you make, even if you're like a mother or a father, like how you make it all about the kids or all about the family or and it's kind of like to the extreme where you don't give yourself anything and that's why i noticed when i worked in the salon mums that had like had their kids grow up and go to college yeah all of a sudden were like really lost because they had no identity left because they'd put their identity in the kids for sure which i get we all do that as parents i'm not saying that's unhealthy but i think it's really important to be able to come back to yourself and you know you only get one life and you're living it so you might as well try and make it as colorful and as you know good a place to be as possible yeah oh for sure um what would you say to someone who is scared to go after their dreams whether they're a young kid listening to this about to go to college or a mom whose kids are off to college and she wants a career change what advice would you give them from what you've kind of dealt with in your own life I think fear is like a really powerful word and I'll tell you a story actually about a time I had fear. This is kind of related to a celebrity. And, um, it's a time that honestly, honestly, if I'd have given into this, like none of this would have happened. I wouldn't be here. The book wouldn't be written. I'd be still in Leicester. I basically had just moved to America and my career was like a steady build. I got qualified in the salon. I wanted to be a top stylist. I kept working towards that. And then I started to do competitions. I noticed there was hair outside of that yeah I lost a lot of times and then I finally won one and then I did a tv show which was a bit like the great british bake-off but of hair yeah so and I won that fortunately I don't know and everything was just like a little leapfrog into the next thing so then that led me to this kind of place where I was working a little bit behind the back scenes at like fashion shows I was only passing pins but I was like a sponge just absorbing everything yeah then I was booking like magazines just small ones like for papers and stuff and I started to work with makeup artists and they worked with celebrities and they were like, Oh, I work with this celebrity. So I'd done a little bit of celebrity and got in there. And then I decided, um, one day after I got an email from someone, which is, I mean, you know, she's an absolute icon, um, Jennifer Lopez. And, um, yeah, I did what everyone would do. I deleted it because I was like, well, the spam, you know, it's like one of those emails, like you're a millionaire, Yeah, just fill out this form and give us your information and your bank details. You're like, no, no, no, I'm not going to do this. So I did what I thought was the right thing and delete it. And then a few weeks later, I got another email. I was like, oh, maybe this is not. But then I was like, how does J-Lo know who I am? I'm just Chris, just Chris from Leicester. I was like, well, maybe she – and it was the time of social media. I started to post my work a lot. I was making a clear kind of platform for what my work was. I was working with Rita Ora at the time. I was constantly changing her hair. It was short, then long, and it was like different colors. And, you know, I was just showcasing my work. And I kind of thought to myself, well, maybe if I go to America, like, I could make it work. Maybe that's the bigger thing. So I moved to America. I literally packed two suitcases. I left my apartment. I left everything. And I went to America with a dream. I'm going to do this. Fell flat on my face. I didn't work for months. You know, everyone comes to Hollywood with a dream. and it doesn't always work out. And I kind of had spent all my money, but I'm also a father at that point. So I have two kids to support. And I eventually got the call to do The Voice with Christina Aguilera. So I'm like, wow, my moment has come. This is great. I get to shine. But then I kind of, the fear came in. I'm like, wow, but she's Christina Aguilera. She's done everything. She's like amazing. She's an icon. on turned up with the voice and there was um three hours for glam so it's plenty of time yeah i can get to know her we can discuss the looks we can have some fun the makeup artists went in because they had a relationship and i was waiting outside the trailer so like an hour went by i'm still not gone in so i'm like well maybe i'm like a backup because you know self-doubt is coming down like i'm probably just a backup like yeah another hour went by and i'm like feeling really nervous and then the last 20 minutes before the live show, I got called in. So I'm like, well, hair's probably going to be done because, you know, it's only 20 minutes. I'm like, it's probably going to be done. Now just be finishing it off. Well, it wasn't, it was ready to be done. So I was like, oh, what are you going to do? So I was like, I know I had all these wigs prepped and all these hair pieces and, you know, the life of celebrity, it's a demanding job of like changing your look up. So wigs and pieces can be a really fun way to do that. So I said, oh, you know, I'd love to try this wig it was like a little ashier than her hair it was like a bit of a hollywood wave and um i kind of thought oh this is a great way to sort of do something good and it's going to be fast and she's i don't like wigs and i was like oh okay yeah i was like okay yeah and in that moment she was great she wasn't being anything but kind and nice and she just knew she would wore wigs and maybe not lighter but I thought she was saying I see you Chris you're an imposter like what are you doing here you're a little guy from Leicester you think you can come in here and work with me you know and I just literally felt so small and I remember fear coming in like I felt it in my stomach and have you ever felt that fear it like goes over your body feel like it's like just paralyzes you you know and you're like kind of get hazy in your head and I did that thing that hairdressers do where they start like moving the hair they just like kind of hairdressers basically do that when they don't know what they're doing they just kind of fiddle it's like a they're just fiddling yeah moving it in different directions like what are we doing here whatever we're trying to figure it out yeah and then i had this moment it was very defining where i heard this voice and it was actually the mother of my kids kate because on the way over she said to me look chris if you don't make this work you're gonna have to come home like you can't yeah keep doing this you know and hearing her voice and thinking about my kids it really just kind of brought me back to myself it took me from that fearful place of going back to when I was like 13 and felt small and insecure and wrong. And I came back into my adult self and I was like, you know, I actually know what I'm doing. Like I been practicing this for the last 30 years I am I think this is going to be great And I thought if she doesn like what I do because she doesn like it then that fine But if I don get to at least show her I'm always going to kick myself. So I got the wig and I was like, let's just try this. Cause you never tried these pieces. Let's just try this. I put it on and she's like, oh, cause it wasn't like a full wig. It was like behind the hair and it was just like a piece on the back. But she was like, oh, I like it. So I quickly put it on. I like bury her hair underneath. She goes out on the stage and that's it. Welcome to like social media. because all of a sudden everyone's gonna have an opinion yeah and when it's good it's great and when it's bad it's not so I'm like oh god please hope this is gonna be okay and then she came off stage it was the little break and um she just kind of looked over at me and she's like everyone likes your wig and then she carried on like talking to the contestants and in that moment I'm like like yes I did it and like it is the one defining moment that honestly if I'd have given into that fear that was literally coming over me like yeah I don't know like it was like paralyzing none of my career would have happened I would have gone back to Leicester and I probably would have believed everything that I was told that I wasn't good enough that was stupid and I was I was I was told to stay small yeah but I think there's so much to be said for like people telling these stories and explaining that like it isn't easy and there's plenty of times um that we fall on of face, but it's what you do after. It's how you choose to pick yourself up and move on. It's not about deleting the past. And for a long time, I thought it was about erasing my past. It's actually about understanding that your past is a part of you and, you know, it evolves you to be the next version of yourself and that reinvention isn't got an age on it. Anyone can reinvent themselves and have their comeback at any age. Yeah. I love that. If you're craving something that feels real, layered, and genuinely engaging, this is the show worth adding to your listen list. Jaded is a weekly series where cultural tastemakers and disruptors let their guard down and speak openly about success, struggle, and everything in between. There are no polished highlight reels here. Instead, the focus is on the behind-the-scenes moments, the pivots, the doubts, and the experiences that shape who people become. Hosted by Jade Begay, each episode weaves candid interviews with unscripted in the moment conversation. The results feel intimate and dynamic, like getting a backstage pass to discussions that usually stay private. It's conversational, honest, and refreshingly unfiltered. Listeners will hear hard-earned lessons in leadership, the messy realities of chasing your passions, and the small but meaningful life hacks that help people keep moving forward when skepticism starts to creep in. Jaded leans into nuance and uncertainty, showing what growth actually looks like as it's happening. What makes the show especially compelling is the level of access. Jaded opens a window into the lives of people shaping today's culture, offering a rare opportunity to hear how familiar voices navigate doubt, growth, and the search for meaning in real time. These conversations aren't wrapped up in a bow, they're still unfolding. Each episode leaves room for reflection, connection, and forward motion. 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Instead of striving for perfect health and for supporting foundational health for a limited time, save 40% off your first month at virtual.com slash the squeeze that's virtual.com slash the squeeze for 40% off your first month have you intentionally done like inner child work because I feel like you know how do you have been I can just I I feel it like I feel like you've done it kind of yeah so I've talked I talk a lot about it but just in the way you talk about your younger self I'll tell you too I thought it was such a load of bullshit when I first heard about it really I have this therapist and he's great he's really nice I love him he's such a nice guy and very knowledgeable and I kept saying why do I keep getting myself into this situation why do I keep going out with it why do I keep going into the same yeah fucking situation every time with the same fucking outcome I was like I need to change this pattern of what I'm doing yeah and it was with regards to dating so I'm like it doesn't just say I was trying to go around but it was regards to dating so I'm like why do I keep ending up with the same thing and he's like trying to help me understand it and break it down he's like i want to go back to like a younger memory of yours and i'm like oh yeah we're fucking guys so he's like i want to close your eyes and i'm like oh i'm gonna close my eyes so i close my eyes and he's like you know i want you to think of a time in your life and i remember this image i was like six years old i was at the window i remember looking out it was pretty gloomy in england and i remember feeling like i didn't really belong i was different to my sisters i was different to my brothers in in every way and i just felt like i didn't really belong i felt off yeah i didn't really feel seen and one of five kids yeah life was busy and he's like you know so how do you think that little kid felt and i'm like well you know probably felt lonely like sad and unsure and he's like well what would you say to that little kid and i was like well if it was my little kid i would say you're great you're just enough just the way you are you're gonna have an amazing life and you might feel a bit different now but that's gonna be your superpower as you get older and you know and i was like all of a sudden i was not just crying like sobbing like hysterically like ugly crying couldn't breathe and i was like what did you do i was like what did you say okay because it wouldn't leave me i was like what the what have you it was like he pulled this plug inside of me and this flood happened so anyone that watching might think oh this is like whatever honestly really fucking it really works it was a very intense moment and I realized I had abused myself my whole life I'd spoke so badly I took those voices that people spoke to me and said that it was a piece of shit I was gay I was stupid I took all those things I believed it and I ran away from it and I abandoned that little boy very young and I left that kid and I think part of the inner child work is just about coming back to him and that was really like the changing point in my whole life because I realized I was making everything about everyone else I was like doing yeah so much for other people trying to build them up but that was breaking me you know like loving someone so much but the reality of it is that was breaking me yeah for whatever the reasons were and I realized that was just so unhealthy and I didn't want to do that anymore. And I wanted to see that little boy. And it changed everything because once I learned that, look, I still have that inner hater voice that we all have. Everyone always has it. It's not as though you're going to read the book or read any book or speak to anyone and you're going to be fixed. It's a journey and it should be because you're always evolving into new things. But the difference is if I do get that voice that comes up now, it's a lot quieter and I don't get it for so long. And I'll register. I'm like, oh, I'm doing that thing that I do. And you can come back to yourself. For sure. So it's not like, because you know, sometimes pretend people are like, oh, I say this and you're all fixed. It's really not like that. It's just, you learn how to sort of navigate. Like I've been down that road before and it really didn't work out. So I'm going to avoid it. Even I might be still attracted to it. Yeah. Because I still get that. I still am attracted to certain situations and I'm like, it doesn't work for me. It's not healthy. Yeah. I'm going to bypass it. So it's not as though you're completely fixed, but you learn, you grow, and you evolve into someone that can sit with themselves, look at themselves in the mirror and feel actually pretty proud or happy with where you're at. Yeah, just like speaking kinder to yourself. I always say like, I think- Could you be honest and tell me one thing like your inner hater says about you? Probably that I like, maybe that I'm not good enough. Yeah, that's a good one. I work, I'm like, I work really hard and I like feel like I have to do everything or it won't get done or like, that's my thing. And for anyone listening that's ever like said, like I'm spiraling, you know, you know, you go in that place. It's like, you just, you just don't spiral as much. You kind of can stop you talking about, I'm doing that thing. Yeah. You're doing great, sweetie. Thank you. Thank you. um, he touched on it a little bit. And, um, I think obviously we've been talking about fear and fear of disappointing, um, your kids, um, and your ex wife as well was something that you struggled with before coming out. And I think no matter what it is, if it's something that is like that, or even something smaller that isn't as drastically life-changing to the people around you, it can, the fear of disappointing people can definitely hold you back. And I think you and I are similar in the sense of like people pleasing and putting other people's feelings and opinions first. And then that just ends up hurting us during that. And we don't even like realize that that's happening. Um, and with that can definitely like build up a sense of like shame around it. And it's just something that slowly builds. And it may not even be something that I feel like sometimes I don't even notice that is kind of building in me. But then it gets to a point where it's kind of too big to even handle or notice. What has kind of helped you heal from dealing with that fear or shame of disappointing the ones that you love? I mean, probably, I mean, I think because it's been so extreme. Yeah. you're like um it's interesting because even when i think about i have to pause because it's hard to talk about still even now but yeah you know when i came out at 26 it was so hard because not only was i trying to understand what was going on and everyone said like you knew you always knew like when i did the jay shetty podcast like i saw a lot of people comment saying like you always knew you were gay you put that woman through like hell and honestly it not the truth like at a young age when I was told I was these things that seemed bad before I really kind of delved into it I was very focused on just not being I didn't really entertain it yeah your brain is really powerful how you can just like unsee something yeah but only for so long and it was like at the age of 26 where when I realized that I just try I had to try and understand what the hell was going on and then not only was I trying to understand that I was trying to explain it to other people yeah the people I loved the most I was also hurting and I felt that I was bringing that shame I had as a child onto them I felt like oh they're gonna get bullied they're gonna get picked on now they're gonna have a gay dad it's going to be hell and you know that to me was the limit like i couldn't comprehend hurting my own children because all you want to do as a dad is is or as a parent is just protect your kids that's your job that's who you want to be it's just internal it's just an instinct yeah to be the one that's hurting them well i'd always put them before me and i just felt like it would be better if I wasn't there than to be gay. I just couldn't process it. I just couldn't. I didn't want to process it. I didn't want to be it. It felt like a cancer that I wanted to cut out. Yeah. And I tried everything to try and get rid of it, and I couldn't. So I did try and end my life, and it didn't work. because I was found. I mean, Kate, who is the mother of my kids, she is like my saving grace, but they found me anyway. And I think when I laid in that hospital bed, I was in there for a while, and I remember thinking to myself, well, what now? And it wasn't like a big thing. It wasn't loud. I just remember feeling like I couldn't have hated myself anymore. I couldn't have wanted to be anyone else than me. And I realized I'd spent my whole life trying to be somewhere else. or be someone else. And I didn't know how to get back to myself because it was a lot of years in the gap of like getting back to myself and I couldn't fill those years overnight. And I think in that moment, I just surrendered. I just sort of said, what's the opposite I could do? I could just, if I'm going to be here, I can't change it. So maybe if I'm just accepting of it. I don't really know what is going to be next and I don't really know how to move forward with it. But what about if I just accept it and try and deal with the next step after that? But step one is just saying, this is who I am. I think it's probably the first time I'd said that since I was a kid. And I think it's the first time I'd seen myself in a long time. And like I said, I'd made a career out of making other people see themselves, which was really powerful. I loved that. I felt like a superpower. I loved making people feel alive and becoming their best version of themselves and allowing them to be who they wanted to be. I just never allowed myself. Yeah. So shame is such a powerful thing. And I carried it so heavily that I think I don't think I would allow myself to get to that place again because I'm in a different place now. I have come back to myself. I don't think I could have like gone ahead of like living with shame if I hadn't have done the work of coming back to myself and filling in the gaps which I just like blocked yeah um but it's the best thing you can ever do it's brutal it's not easy to do but it's the best thing you can ever do yeah because when you like I say you might if you're aligned on the outside you look great who cares if you go home and you're crying at night you know like who cares if you're miserable and you know there's so many complications you can get from that and you know controlling what you eat controlling how you look you know it can get so so intense and and can escalate in other areas of your life and i just i just wanted to be more whole i felt like i owed that to my kids to be a good dad you know to to show them to be proud of who they are yeah even though the circumstances were awful but you know i think i just decided to make a change and when I did everything changed and it wasn't overnight yeah it takes time I think that's the thing of changes like people think it can just happen it takes time and it's not always easy but it's the best thing you can ever do are you prepared for people to like read this and comment on it like how are you are you at a place where you're like people can say whatever they want I mean I think you would be like I don't know I don't know if I believe it when people go I don't I mean, I think if you're human, then you will always have an instinct to feel one way or the other. I kind of like opinions. I don't mind discussions. I think it's healthy. And I think I've shared what I want to share. And I hope, like I say, it inspires a lot of people. I think the whole thing of social media and people having so many opinions now, um i think it's really good and i think there's so much that is good that has come from it yeah um we knew so much now about everything yeah you know apparently like a hundred years ago people only knew in a whole lifetime what we know in a day or something like you know because anytime like you just google everything yeah even like chat gbt now write me a letter write me this email you don't even have to think you know it just does it all for you so i think it's just like the world we live in i'm just used to it i'm just used to everyone having an opinion in a discussion about things um and i think there's a healthiness to it i don't love it when people jump on a bandwagon and and just want to be like heard i don't know if that's always healthy yeah you know you hear one thing trending and then it was i i i went there once and this place was you know and you know yeah but i understand that we it's a platform where people get to express themselves um and i'm cool with that like i think it's uh i think it's um i don't know i think there's more good than bad yeah and i know people couldn't like say bad things about social media but i'll be honest like i wouldn't be here if it wasn't for social media because jayla wouldn't be seeing me in leicester of england when she was in hollywood yeah you know so yes it does put the eyes on you um and it can be bad but it can also be for great things and i think it's just how you navigate it really and yeah i mean i know who i am i know um who i am as a dad i know how important the people are around me that I love and I'm proud of that. So I'm really proud to put it out and I really hope people see the good in it. And also there's a lot of really funny stories that, you know, I think a lot of people don't really know that about me. I love to laugh. I'm always being stupid. You know, they see that more that polished version. And again, I wanted to like pull that back a little bit and be like keeping it real. So hopefully with that realness and that rawness, people relate to it yeah i love that what is self-care look like to you what are tools or practices that you like to implement when you maybe feel you need a little self-love mental health care i just look in the mirror and i say um a few words i just say like bitches ain't shit and they ain't say nothing a hundred motherfuckers can't tell me nothing i beezed in the train it's beautiful i just said a few serious words we were laughing so like if there's these funny things on tiktok where there's these women she's in like a court and she's really serious and she's saying this i just love tiktok and instagram it's fucking hilarious no um what do i do when i'm feeling sad yeah yeah if you're what do you do to keep your mental health stuff like that just laugh take myself out of it i just yeah i just am like oh my god those lemons are they real i don't know I'll just be like, I'll just think of something. I've got like a really creative mind. I'm always making like, I'll like do funny things like tricks to my family or friends or I'm like trying to scare someone or I'll call, I've called my friend the other day, Bethany Frankle and I'm like, babe. And she's like, what? And I'm like, did you mean to post that? And she's like, post what? And I'm like, that selfie, your boobs are out. Like I can literally see you. But she said, what do you want about? And I'm like, you've got like a selfie in the mirror and your boobs are out. and she's like what do you want no I didn't and she's like going to this fun pattern I'm like pissing myself and I just did it for no apparent reason yeah I don't think it's good to like keep it real in life sometimes I get so freaking lost in like I mean I can't tell you how many emails and texts and stuff I've had about this book and then like there's so much going on like all the time like you your job and then for sure you know kids and just being a you know dad and my parents now I'm like the parent to them you know as I've got older it's funny I'm sure most people can relate to life being kind of crazy and sometimes you just gotta laugh and yeah be a bit more real about it and you know not take it too seriously we're not necessarily saving lives so I think I just try and um yeah laughter is really powerful like just have a little laugh and break in the ice and just I love that I think there's a beauty in being able to just have that like real laugh that you can have with the people you love or your friends or family for sure you know yeah well last question I have for you is I'd love to know what you're most proud of yourself for oh easy you want to know what it is oh I didn't know if it was related oh no no I just feel like it's important because a lot of times people I ask them and they're like I don't I don't know like I've never like I think it's important that we take the time to kind of like reflect on how we've grown and how we've changed in life so yeah my greatest achievement the thing I'm the most proud of without doubt and you can take everything away from me You can take my job. You can take my finances. You can take my house. You can take whatever. I am so grateful for my two kids. They bring me so much joy. Like I'm 42. My daughter's 21. My son's 23. And I'm so proud of them. And one of my greatest achievements, I think, is bringing them to America and getting them away from the small town they grew up in, where life is a little bit smaller and, you know, opportunities are less. And bringing them to say. And, you know, it wasn't forceful. It was like, come see what you think. And the way they blossomed and the way they've grown. I mean, my mom, my daughter, Kitty, when she first came to L.A., she couldn't even look at someone in the eye to order food. You know, I remember being like, oh, my God, why can't you? Like, you know, because it's just the way she was kind of like, I guess, around her friends or around people where she kind of, again, like her roots were defining her. And I was like, you need to make eye contact. And like now she, you know, the way she communicates and the way she talks to me, she's telling me things. And I'm like, oh, my God, you have grown into the most beautiful woman. And my son, the way he has gone about, you know, his career choice is completely different to me. He's in like sports and business. Couldn't be further. I don't know what the fuck. You know, but I'll support him. But just the way he's so like organized with his businesses and such a, I don't know, just a positive person. And again, he had such struggles when he was a kid. Like me being gay, like he was the footballer at school. it scared him that he was gonna kids can be mean you just don't want to be the odd one you know yeah the way he's grown through that and the way he's grown now and for them to actually say when I did the book um and it came out and we had the first sort of launch of it they wrote these letters to me and they've never really done anything like that and it was the most heartfelt warm letters and the biggest sort of most powerful thing they said was that they were proud of me to be their dad and you know honestly that i'm good now like i it's my greatest achievement and i don't say it lightly i genuinely am so grateful to be in the position i'm in my life and be able to share that with them yeah so special well thanks for coming and chatting what's your greatest achievement oh gosh um don't play it down you did that thing you were like you might you did that oh don't look at me come on what is it let's talk about it i think i'm most proud of my kindness i think i even though sometimes it is to a fault where I assume the best in people okay yeah I think still been there being in this industry and still you know being burned and being hurt I still love people and I still seek the best in them and hope the best in people so I think maybe that's what I'm most proud of that's beautiful and it's a real hard thing to keep especially when like that to be that way I think you have to have an openness and I think with like people mistreating your being hurt you can close off yeah and it'd be easy thing to do to become hard but it's really sad to be that way you know when it's not inherently who you are yeah thank you so much for having me thank you I'm so excited for people to read this and I loved chatting with you yeah I feel like I've like had a lot of things I wanted to ask you but I ended up just sidebarring and Oh, just chatting. Should we go get your husband and give him hair advice? Probably. Let's do it. Thank you. interest in products or services referred to in this episode.