The Trump Regime Is Creating A Surveillance State With ICE

Welcome to this. Welcome back to the Siren Podcast. Kion Shroff, one of our newest contributors, but also a contributor to everything. We're going to talk about this piece on MSNOW that has to do with cell phone videos protecting Americans but eroding our privacy. First of all, welcome. How are you? Good, good. How have you been? 2026 off to a great start. I see following you online. Oh, well, that great is a word for it. The 100th week of January is off to one hell of a what day of the week is thursday i don't know anymore every every week feels like a year long right it is i i will say i have been like usually i feel like it takes me so long to be like oh it's the new year it's like no it's we're into the new year it's like it's going i'm ready to be into the next new year um but let's just jump in because this is what you know i want to talk to you about you have this opinion piece on ms now cell phone videos are protecting Americans and eroding our privacy, even when constant documentation is justified, such as to track ICE abuses. Recording it as a survival strategy reshapes public life. So let's jump in there. First of all, what made you write this piece? You know, I think one of the things I realized, and I know you're constantly on social media too, is being on there every minute now, we are seeing like a horrific video of ICE brutalizing citizens or undocumented folks going after children, lying about it explicitly after. Actually, it's crazy to me because I used to do cable hits with the DHS spokesperson all the time when she was just like this rando who worked on Vivek Ramaswamy's failed campaign. And it's like, all she did was lie on the shows. And I'm like, that is why they hired her. So she could just trot out these lies again and again. But we've seen a cycle now where the federal government has no qualms about blatantly lying about things that are being proven lies because fortunately people have taken video, often several different videos from different angles. Obviously we saw that with the murder of Renee Good. But what sort of made me think, and I'm an attorney as well, is, you know, often when you create documents, when you create archives, when you create footage like that, it doesn't just stop there, right? You slowly are creating all this information that, you know, these are public recordings of conflicts. They could be at times, you know, used by law enforcement, accessed, of course, by these big tech folks who we shouldn't be trusting. And we're just seeing a proliferation of the need to document and video everything. And again, I don't put that on the neighbors, the people showing up to rightly get this stuff on the record. It's very important. It's saving lives. It's calling people, you know, tracking people who have been disappeared, frankly, by these secret agents who often they give no notice of where they've gone or that they were even taken. So it is critically important. And yet we're being forced into this situation where without the documentation, we're not safe, we're not guaranteed our rights, and certainly not the truth. And so you even have people like Tim Walls, right, telling people a couple days ago, take out your phone and record ICE so that we can build our own database. So there can be some accountability. And I understand that call, but then you have to realize that puts us all in a situation where the federal government is using all these surveillance tools to monitor us. Then we are in kind building our own surveillance system to hold them accountable. And what that does is it vastly accelerates our, you know, march towards a constant surveillance state. So that's why I wrote the piece. Well, that was long-winded. Sorry. Well, no, no, no. No, it's great. It's such a double-edged sword, right? Because on the one hand we talk about this all the time we know these videos they break through we know that these videos pierce the bubble we also know in george floyd and renee nicole good we also know that with this i mean fire hose of fuckery coming out of this regime that we cannot expect them to tell the truth anymore i mean it is orwellian disbelieve your own eyes and ears really believe what we say instead we see this all the time again we saw it very explicitly with with renee nicole good's murder, where they will tell you that things that didn't happen happened or that things that happened didn't. So it is this double-edged sword, but it's also, it gives those who abuse power a weird permission structure to do it. It's almost like, you know what I mean? I'm not going to be held to a standard of what I am or not supposed to do, but you're just going to record me and then there's going to be no consequences for it. So it seems sort of futile in many ways as well. So it's this very delicate balance. And we know also that ICE is using that software you were talking about where you see them holding up their phones because they don't have to have body cameras. And you see them recording people who are protesting their faces, all of that. Right. And they're doing that to American citizens, too. They don't give a shit. So it is it is it is one of these inflection points where we have to talk about the good and the bad. Well, and I think the logical conclusion from all this, right, is like eventually in a world where everything is recorded and there's all this evidence has to be created for every interaction. Then when you don't have that evidence, either imagine your phone just died and you don't have it. I think there's like this expectation of this question that becomes so normalized. Oh, well, like if you don't have it recorded, if you don't have your evidence, if you don't have your video version, then do you even have any truth? Do you even have any rights? Like, that's really where we're headed. And I think that's an extremely scary space to be in. Again, I understand in the short term why it's so important to whip out your phone and catch these people really violating so many people's rights. But we have to acknowledge there's like more to this terrible situation Trump's created as well. Yeah. It's like, well, yes, with everything that he touches, right? It's like Pixar didn't happen. You know what I mean? But the worst possible version of it. Wow. Well said. What a throwback. Jesus. Showing my Gen X card there. But yeah. But the thing is, too, I mean, it's so bizarre because I understand what Tim Walls is saying. And yet and I understand why they don't want us recording what they're doing, why that represents such a threat to them, because they want to be able to do what they're doing under the cover of darkness, you know, and then darkness being information. and and so again it's like i you know we have ice here now in jersey and they they really hadn't been here in full force and they i think you know for whatever reason they probably waited till the end of our gubernatorial election to show up in full force but they're in the next few towns over and i said to my kids who are almost 13 and 16 i'm like i want to go i want to bring my phone i want to record what they're doing and they both started to get upset like as teenagers do there was you could hear the anxiety in their voices it wasn't like they were crying but they're like you know don't you dare my kids swear at me sometimes and i'm not gonna lie and my kids were like don't you fucking dare don't you dare they'll kill you don't you realize that they'll kill you they'll murder you they'll shoot you just for for filming what they're doing like that's another thing too is that they desperately don't want us to film what they're doing because it's this threat to what they're doing right right absolutely i mean by the way the idea that these folks are acting like mainstream law enforcement when they don't have jurisdiction to do so cops wear body cams Right. I mean, it's this is like the normal practice. So here you have these secret masked agents not being recorded, doing all sorts of crazy, terrible things. So it's an awful situation for sure. And I do think, you know, sort of not only to record in the moment, but I do think I'm sold on the idea that, like, yes, we should have this evidence for pursuing accountability against these folks. We should know who was part of this, and we absolutely should think of what the future looks like for those folks who went around breaking the law, terrorizing American citizens, and collecting a paycheck to do it. Yeah and one of the really interesting yeah well then you closing not to give away the whole plot here but if surveillance becomes the default language between the state and the public then the argument will eventually be over who watches more carefully not whether anyone should be watched at all And a country where safety and freedom are offered only to those with proof is no democracy at all so i mean what a beautifully articulated sentiment and so thank you and bonus points for actually being a host that read the article i love that a rare occurrence in this new media landscape i will say if it's a book we're having a different conversation because I have to audible that shit first. But like, it's a very salient and important point. And yet, like, so how does that inform, right, our choices? This is, this is the question, you know, because you don't want to tell people you shouldn't record that for accountability right now. But at the same time, you know, we should be cognizant of these red flags and these pitfalls that this path are surrounded by. And it can only get worse from here on out. So how do we inform and instruct our choices? Yeah. I mean, I hope the takeaway, because I kind of was like, wow, this is such like a downer piece with really no solution offer. Just like, here's another thing that sucks. But I will say what I know, but then I thought about it. And what I would hope is, you know, I saw a recent press conference by police chiefs about how their off-duty officers were also having their constitutional rights violated when they were showing up to these ICE protests. And obviously their argument, you know, maybe it's a stretch, but it was that officers tend to know their rights and they tend to know what's allowed at these protests. Often those officers are enforcing the rules of protests themselves. And I think it was a moment that broke through. And I hope this can also just be a different argument for folks that maybe they're not sold for some reason, which, you know, people always shock you on what doesn't click for them. But maybe they're not sold on seeing these people march through the streets and terrorize people and rip them out of their homes. But I do think there is a demographic that does care about the surveillance state about the reality is that this government, no matter what you think of immigration policy, cannot be trusted. They are abusing people without accountability. There have been so many American citizens abused and caught up in this, if that's the only people you care about, which I think is wrong. But you are allowing that to happen. And then your fellow citizens are having to build this surveillance state in part because of how authoritarian this Trump regime is. And I do think we're seeing the podcast bros and some of the manosphere and all those figures come out against some of this stuff because they see it. They see it. It's impossible not to see lie after lie and video footage proving the lie again and again. So I hope people care about that. yeah it's it's so interesting with the manosphere or it was like it's it's like dan bilzerian when i saw that i was like it's over like i mean it's as if it's as if we all told you exactly what was going to happen and you chose not to listen but hey you know what i mean like i guess if we have to drag you to the point where you see something then so be it but at least they're starting to see it now but and it is it's you i can't what's the algorithm but i and i'm glad for it which sounds so messed up to say but my algorithm is full of these videos and i put as many of them out there as well because you cannot say you didn't see it you cannot say you didn't know and it goes back to this like you said i would argue and this is going to sound naive or whatever that most people would actually tell you no that's not what i voted for i did not vote for a five-year-old to be used as me um another story where they're telling you one set of facts versus right we have available to us jd vance was in minneapolis is in minneapolis today lying again to the american people with with many things but in particular about that case uh about that five year old which by the way the story is they detained multiple children so what's your excuse for all the other ones that's the thing they will cherry pick one thing and then they will establish a whole set of facts because that's what they do you can't you can't even trust them to the point where two things happened in two days. Yesterday, Trump said Iceland multiple times. Insane. And Carolyn Levitt said he didn't. That was truly crazy. Iceland. She said he meant Iceland. Come on, that's like Jewish with George Santos. Remember when George Santos was like, I didn't say I was Jewish. I said I was Jewish. Iceland, he repeatedly referred to Greenland as Iceland. Many times. Yeah, by the way, why would they write that in his transcript that way 5,000 times? They wouldn't. Well, that, right? And then today, because, of course, pictures from Davos came out of Trump's left hand, which looked like he got a Greenland tattoo this morning, by the way, on his hand. It looks like a combination of grayscale and leprosy. I don't know, but it's really bad. and carol let's hope i mean let's hope it's really bad god's ears uh we're not allowed to say that stuff but but but carol levitt came out today and she said oh no he banged it while signing legislation and that's how he did it come on but like that's the thing they keep telling us to disbelieve our own eyes it's almost comical it's almost farcical and of course unlike the last administration which couldn't go to the bathroom without the press corps there wondering what's happening nobody cares no it's crazy well it's the double standard and and and again i i would argue in many ways that the mainstream media is not meeting this moment and i know that they're not they're they're a symptom right of a larger ill but but when you have this double standard when you know jake tapper at all others uh are talking about joe biden's health and the biggest scandal and the biggest cover-up of our time and and he's walking around he couldn't walk a straight line when he got there he's got these bruises all over his hands he is clearly diminishing he's falling asleep in the middle of his own cabinet meetings and in his own oval office meetings he's falling asleep but the press just like they're not asking about the epstein files which are 34 days yeah i think i saw 34 yeah yeah so and and again when you couple that with what we're talking about here with how you cannot trust them and you kind of have to document what they're doing but at the same time you're creating a surveillance state it feels it can feel like there's just no right answer you know i am officially done with skincare that promises miracles and delivers vibes i want science that's why i use one skin their products are powered by the os1 peptide built on real longevity science that targets aging at the cellular level not just the surface i've been using the os1 eye cream and it's one of those rare products where you actually see the difference. Smoother under eyes, less crepey texture, and zero irritation. It feels like I finally swapped hype for something that works. And right now, you can get up to 30% off your subscription orders when you use the code JOJO at oneskin.co. That's up to 30% off with the code JOJO at oneskin.co. Use the code, support the show, and give your skin the science it deserves. Right. 100 percent. No, you're so right. And I think, you know, one of the things I've also been thinking about, you were so generous that, you know, obviously these reporters are part of, you know, a bigger system and all that. I hear that at the same time, like when I was just thinking, you know, Abby Phillips, all these people who are in this right now, CBS journalists. I just feel like it is so short sighted because either things are going to get so much worse and you're not going to be in this position because we will really be a fully fascist state. or Democrats will regain control. There will be some sanity. And everyone's going to remember, Abby Phillips, that you took millions of dollars in pay to be a... She's not a journalist at this point. We can't say that. Like, she just isn't. She's been the Jerry Springer of the news. She's platformed so much lies, so much disinformation. And then we're supposed to be like, oh, wow, you got a great gotcha on your scripted remarks that you knew you were bringing people on to lie about. And I just can imagine in a short amount of time, people looking back on that and saying, who were these people? What were they doing? And they really have in some sense betrayed not only their profession, but obviously our democracy. And I don think we should be that forgiving of it Oh I 100 percent agree with you on this And I stubborn as hell and i have a very long memory and i remember every republican who ever called donald trump out in the original season of this dumpster fire right hello marco rubio lindsey graham i mean i'm looking at all of you who flip-flopped like weathercocks and and nikki haley etc i don't believe any of them should ever get a pass i don't believe any of them should ever been given a pass and the same holds true for the press. I'm sorry, but I'm a Joe Biden stan to a fault. That is just one of those things. Everybody knows about me. It's just, it's one of my Achilles heels, but, but I will never, ever, ever trust Jake Tapper again because, and others, because it was disingenuous. They, they, they, they, they, they were using those stories to sell books, you know? It's not to a fault. I'm just saying, I love it. Like, you know, that meme that's like two dumb people, like telling each other exactly that might be us right now, but I'm just kidding. No, like, I totally agree with you. Like, the reality is, Joe, Jake Tapper, if you read that book said that Joe Biden would be in a wheelchair and they implied he'd be dead by now. Okay, that is not like being crazy or us overreacting. Or I know I wrote a piece for the sirens saying, right, they were trying to call us blue MAGA for calling out their ridiculous coverage. That's reality. Here we are. We now know those things were not true. We now know those things were totally overhyped and misreported. and way over focused on today. Joe Biden looks better than Donald Trump, as you just noted. So what the fuck? Like, I don't know if he cares. He has aggressive cancer. And I remember, I'm going to call myself down here. I'm going to try and try and take it down because this one really gets me going because I had seen Joe Biden. I called him Joe, you know, go back like that. I'm just kidding. Joe and Joe. Right. I'd seen him on December, middle of December because I was so grateful. and so lucky and so privileged to have been invited to a meeting and got to go into the office, et cetera, blah, blah, blah, all the things. And I'm telling you, and any creator who was there, and there were 10 of us, around 10 or 11 of us in the room at the time, he came out and he spoke to us in the Roosevelt room for, it felt like, I mean, it was maybe 20 minutes. It could have been a half an hour. He was engaging with us. He was talking to us. He was answering questions. He was giving us motivational, like, you know, things to think about and inspire us. He said things like, you know, I believe in what you're doing and new media and creators and this is so important and you guys have to carry the torch and all of this and then we went into the Oval Office and then he met each one of us one by one. He asked us where we were from and I told him where I was from and he instantly knew the very famous product that is made in my town that I'm not going to say because most people can Google it but please just don't because it's fucking creepy. And he said it out loud. He goes, well, that's where they make blank. And I was like, oh my God. And he's like, well, my wife is from New Jersey. You know, Jilly's from New Jersey. Look, look, look. I had met him in 22 and he was sharper. I'm not going to lie. He's an older man. He's an old man, right? He was a bit slower in his step, but senile, not even for it. Well, and frankly, as he always has said, one of my favorite lines, right? Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative. Donald Trump is the alternative. And here we are off. Like I would take that deal any day. Oh my God. It's insane. Can you kind of like, like even believe sometimes I wake up in the morning. So, So like, for instance, this Greenland stuff, which let's just say for now, for now, it's gone back to some status of normalcy, which I mean, it's Trump. So for the moment, he walked himself ish off a cliff of this threat to invade Greenland and betray our NATO allies, et cetera, et cetera. But like, let's just take that. the fact that we are waking up in a world where the rest of our democratic allies in europe are like we need to brace for war against the united states insane can you imagine i was just thinking i was like imagine you are like denmark and you just like woke up one day and you're like oh this like we weren't really thinking about this one too much especially and then i think in iceland yesterday iceland's probably like wait wait wait wait what us wait what did we do like is he coming to get us but it's just it's it's like of all of the things that like you could have expected all of the crazy some of it has jumped the shark so much that it's just like i i i i actually can't believe that we are here right now i mean this board of peace this board of peace i don't know if you saw but gavin newsom's press office who i love posted a meme of that board of peace and it's darth vader and it's accurate it's crazy i mean what's even crazier back to the media connection to all this right is that they literally had so many people believing that it was hillary clinton that it was kamala harris that was joe biden that were these foreign intervenists like that crazy it's like if anything it's republicanism 101. Like, and that's what they do. By the way, whether it's Trump or not, this is what Republicans do. And the fact that media has twisted it so much that like all these young voters and all those folks thought that it was Kamala that was more likely to bring us into foreign conflict is insane. That and they're raising prices on everything, making life more expensive. I mean, we've seen this 42 point slide with Gen Z. I don't know how he had that much support. He'll never understand it but they have not only left him they they run fast and furious away from him what do you think the big drivers are is it this foreign well i will say at least i i was just looking at some data um that really does suggest it's specifically he is now 10 points behind with young men which he obviously won as a demographic and we couldn't stop hearing about for months and months and months um and the driving reason is because of unjustified foreign interventions People don't like that. Young men don't like that. And they especially don't like it in an economy and a context where everything else is terrible and the economy is horrible and there's no jobs. By the way, the labor secretary is out taking staff to strip clubs on our dollars on fake business trips. Like if you don't have a job, maybe you hope that like we have somebody competent in that role. Like, I mean, it's really you couldn't power you to this worse. Like it's unbelievable. Yeah. well right that and i mean again everything getting more expensive and and no relief in sight but then and lying about it and just denying it that's the only thing just affordability is a hoax made up by made up by the democrats which he said the same thing about covid if you remember correctly that wasn't true either but that's also if me if it's me and i'm running that's my that's my attack ad like is affordable so can somebody please tell my grocery store that affordability is a hoax or maybe they think affordability is a hoax, which is why they're not lowering any of their prices, which is, you know, insane. Or why a thing of Super Panera is $18. But it is it is fascinating to me that it does not seem like he gives any shits whatsoever about electability for his party. Because. Well, yeah. Yeah. Because I think, well, it's really interesting. I just got asked what's the most surprising thing about this one year mark of Trump. And to me, it's that we started the year talking about Trump 2028 and how they wanted to violate the Constitution and have him run it for a third term. And how quickly did everything go so badly that now they never mentioned that? And in fact, it's so clear he's just going to ride this out. He's a lame duck. They're going to grift as much as possible. The New York Times reported he made $1.5 billion from the year so far by exploiting the presidency personally. And he's just driving it into the ground. The only benefit I can see of it is hopefully it stinks on J.D. Vance forever, that he is the guy behind this. Yes, man, getting it done, covering for all this, going and lying about the murder of U.S. citizens on Trump's behalf, all of it. So it's disgusting to see. I think there's two things that I would say about that. I think that J.D. Vance, no one can ever – and I hate giving Trump credit for anything – but no one can ever capture the cult the way that he has. Agreed, agreed. Right Like I just don see people flying J Vance flags I mean I just don see them going and charging the capital for J Vance You know I just I like what is it going to have like a love seat on the flag I just I don see it But the other side of that is how how metastasized and institutionalized have have become some of these things that they putting into place right now where it doesn matter who it is if it J if it's donald trump jr if it's you know what i mean especially the courts exactly that's that's the kind of stuff and and all of this revisionist history but also these like these global alliances where it's like dismantle nato so we can instead we'll have this board of dictators right what and then i don't know if you saw it today it's disgusting but jared kushner i saw it okay i'm sorry but like i live in new jersey and um we have a town here a beach town called long branch and long branch was fine they had this pure village it was fine it was quaint it was lovely and then jared came in and he demolished everything and it is very much like a resort town now but it's very elitist and only certain people can afford that it's not the jersey shore and it's you know inherent like jersey shore way um when i saw these pictures of his new Gaza and new Rafa. It was giving me the rework of Long Branch, but like not with Gazans and not. Imagine what a psychopath you have to be to be like a 25 year old. That's like typing that power, like that power point out, like making that slide deck. Like it's insane. I mean, it's sick. It's truly sick. And it's I mean, it's blatant in your face, like grift and corruption. This is a person who got $2 billion from the Saudis, someone who could not get a security clearance without Donald Trump making sure that he got one despite not deserving one. And now he's the one steering the rebuild of a – right? And a rebuild of genocide. Like this is the other thing. They're going to displace everyone who lives there if there's anybody left. It's just grotesque. Truly. Yeah. So that's when you see that stuff. That's when I wonder like how much of this outlives Trump and like how much of this can we retract and pull back once it's really set into motion, which it so much of it is now. And that's the shit that scares me. But that said, looking forward, I know we jumped different topics here and there and starting with, you know, this essay. But what are some things that are on your radar that you want to tackle, that you want to write about, that you want people to be more aware of, that you want them to be more front of mind? Sure. Yeah. Like one thing I'm thinking about a lot, and I put out a piece on the siren yesterday, was as the primary debates heat up, I feel like we're back to like all the proxy wars of 2016 and ever since of all these people, different factions of the left fighting online. And I do think that we need to have more open dialogue and exchange on like people disagreeing and what's working and what isn't working. And like we have to be able to have those types of conversations. I don't know if you watch The Traitors, but I'm a big fan. And anyways, I just it's a quick example that I think captures the point, which is that Donna Kelsey, obviously Taylor Swift's to be mother-in-law is on this reality show where they vote people off. And none of the other celebrities want to vote her off because they're afraid that the Swifties will go after them, whether they're right or not, that she's this traitor that you're supposed to find. Eventually they do it. And she is a traitor. And I think it's just a point, right? Like that, and we're several episodes past this, so it's a spoiler alert, but sorry. Anyways. You're binge watching it. The point is, like, we do have to have those conversations. We do have to have those risks. We do have to sometimes get, you know, the unpopular thing out there that actually makes sense, that's actually right and winnable and do all of that. And it sometimes does come with backlash from the online mob. At the same time, people need to be stopping such big babies. If you want to be a leader, you say what you think and be well thought out and thoughtful, right? Like I've seen so many times like, oh, cancel culture. People getting mad at you is not cancel culture. People disagreeing with you impolitely online is not cancel culture, especially when it's just a bunch of random people online. And I do think you should take that data and you should think about it. The other piece being, though, there is such a lack of diversity in the new media space for Democrats. And I think we've seen it time and time again, but I think one place we're really seeing it, and I like both James Tallarico and Jasmine Crockett, but it does not seem the new media voices can wrap their head around even the arguments people are making that they feel Jasmine Crockett is being treated differently as a black woman. I think it's pretty obvious from certain examples that she is. I think we've had so many data points and examples. I'm not saying you have to vote for her. She has to be your candidate. But the fact it can't even be acknowledged or taken seriously as a critique, as a conversation in the party matters. Not because, you know, everyone needs to agree and woke police and DEI, because you will lose if you don't have the capacity to listen to different important demographics in the party and dismiss them constantly. And, you know, frankly, the YouTube sphere that Democrats have built, you know, basically every show Gavin Newsom goes on, every show, right, these new media politicians go on. It's the same five guys, frankly, with the same opinions. And they think, you know, boosting a Tallarico or whatever makes them go more viral or that's their audience. And I don't – that's fine that they have that. That's okay. But it's a blind spot for the party, and you can't shop that out for too long without addressing it. I want to just cry. Amen to all of that, right? Because it's also literally a definition of insanity because we are repeating in many ways the exact same playbook that we've already run. And we ran this in 24 and we saw what happened. And not only does it disenfranchise a lot of people who don't feel seen, but you're just talking to the same people over and over again. And I know that for myself personally, that that is a challenge. It's a challenge twofold because it's a challenge for me to get access, but it's also a challenge because there aren't a lot of creators who are coming from a diversified background yet. We are trying to build that infrastructure. That's one of the things that the Siren is trying to do so that there is this myriad of voices, but the number one thing I'm taking away from what you were saying that I think about all the time is that the party itself is just so reluctant to change and so reluctant to having difficult conversations because I think about these different factions. They're the people who want the change. And then there are those who are in the positions of comfort, which I can't even understand at this point. And they are very reticent to make those changes and then they make it uncomfortable for other people who are bringing new ideas. And that other party turned themselves into a cult of personality. They literally flipped themselves inside out and now are aligned with like a globalist. of like a globalist who is right like the the the like think about that and so they did that for survival and why we are still so stuck and and it's okay to disagree and i 100 agree with you and i think that that's another reason why people feel like they don't feel heard because they're like oh my god the same people saying the same things and they're not even challenging each other And I, yeah, yeah. So thank you for identifying that. Yes. Well, yes. Okay. So thank you for this conversation. It was wonderful to talk to you as always a pleasure at this piece out now on MS now, and then you've got another piece out that you sent me that we didn't get to, but you can be anything else you want to plug. You want to plug that you want to plug anything else. Sure. I will plug, you know, speaking of reasonable conversations and disagreements, I have my own podcast. It's called extremely reasonable with Kaivon Troth. You can find it on Spotify. And I just interviewed Jay Inslee, but we have some good people on there. I'm going to speak to Alex Boras, who's running in New York 12. And it's just direct, honest conversations. I give them the questions, you know, in advance because they're not gotcha. But they're the questions I think people want to know the answer to. And I don't let it go without the answer coming. So check it out. I love that. I love that. We need more of that. Well, thank you so much. It was wonderful to see you and wonderful to talk to you as always.