James L. Brooks

At AJ Bell, we believe investing is for everyone. And when we say everyone, we mean your dad, Dan, Danielle, Dean, Dave, Del, Del's delivery driver, Denise, Denise's dentist, Dinesh and Devon's strongest man, Donathan. Donathan? Donathan, that can't be right. Donathan. Well, whatever your name is, if you're a real person, investing is for you too. AJ Bell, feel good investing. The value of your investments can go up or down. Hi, my name is James L. Brooks. And I feel quizzical about being Conan. Oh, my, that's right. You and your nine dollar words. Hey there and welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. I came in a little hot. Yeah, right out of the gate. I know. It was like an auctioneer. Oh, I've been watching a lot of auction videos online. Is that a thing? There's, there, Sotheby's has an account and you can watch them. And there are all these really like professional people and a lot of them are on the phone. And they just raise a finger and he's like, OK, and we have three million there. Two, do I have three, three, one, three, one. And then they just, and I want to be one of those people who was on the phone raising my hand. Here's my terror. As you know, I have a lot of ticks and bodily movements. And I even like the insect. As you know, I'm covered in ticks. I just took off my shirt and it was solid tick. God, it was just solid like black T-shirt of undulating ticks all like sucking away. And I'm like, yeah, I've got some ticks. No, I I've always I've thought about that. I've never gone to a real auction and the idea that I'd be in an auction where it's like nine point one million going once going twice. I know that you know what I mean? They'd be like, and kind of run over there with nine point two. It's on you now, buddy. I grew up. My neighbor was an auctioneer, but for like cattle and stuff like that. And he he had this really crazy way of doing it where he was and he would walk up and down the street. He was tiny. He says tiny. Oh, I'm carried away by a bird. He would I was just a kid and he'd offer me perhaps blue ribbons and things like that. And I wanted to do a different thing. And he always wanted to play. And we're here. Wow. Is there a lot of cattle? There's none. Where is it going? He's from Missouri. So that's what you're watching is auctioneer videos. I didn't know that was a thing. I am addicted to I mean, I watch a lot of guitar lick little Instagram videos and stuff. But one thing I've noticed that I'm totally transfixed by is little carpentry hacks. I can't make anything out of wood, but they'll they'll show you how they join two pieces of wood by making these little cuts. Yeah, they'll show you. Oh, if there's a crack in your furniture. And of course, they always have equipment that I would never have that I don't think anybody would have except a professional woodworker. But they'll say, oh, no, if you put this screw halfway in, but then you cover it in glue, but then you make this little divot and you put it in here, it's recessed and then you clamp this together. And then you sand it. And I'm like, oh, my God, I just orgasm. Watching that. It's fantastic. And then I watch the videos where they explain how an orgasm works. And I could watch those forever. And those are hacks as well. Those are hacks as well. And you cut them here and you cut there. And then you put a little glue and. That's my auctioneer voice. Oh, God. I'm also imagining this is my YouTube video is I watch Conan having an orgasm covered in ticks. Yeah, I'm covered in ticks. I'm watching it. Watching it. Orgasming while watching a carpentry hat. One view and the ticks are all watching too. View and it's me. One view. Yeah, that was. Well, I don't know how that all came together, but it did. What do you watch? What's your guilty pleasure? Gosh, I I'll watch a lot of like 10 things you didn't know about. Godfather three. Yeah, something or like restoration of old toys. They were they sandblasted and like repaint it and things like that. It's kind of like an ASMR. I'd like to come back as someone who knows how to make things. Yeah, you know, it's so endlessly fascinating. And I I don't know what it is, but it's so satisfying to see people. Yeah, you know, especially when they if they do something like liquefy aluminum and pour it into a mold and then make something where they polish it, I will cancel everything. No, no, no, they found your replacement liver. It's they can insert. They can they can surgically put it in right now before it dies. I need to finish watching this. You know, now I take my chances on another emergency liver that you might like. But marble Olympics. I don't know what that is. It's like someone makes these huge race tracks and they race marbles against marbles. Yeah. And they all have like names and there's all kinds of different races and marbles in the bleachers watching. It's amazing. This is sports for nerds. I know, but isn't it possible that we've reached? Oh, it's OK. This is the extinction level we've reached is that, you know, we gamed over time. We figured out how to gain humans. If you do this and you do that, a human will want to buy that product. So it's all been figured out by algorithms and and, you know, I mean, and now we're at a point where we know. So we have to figure out they figured out what humans love to watch. And we're all watching it. And I was in an airport like three days ago. Everyone I passed was on their phone. All watching the thing that's been wired directly to their brain to please them. And we might stop feeding ourselves. I know it's really getting. It's really bad. Although I heard I don't know if this is true, but a lot of kids are into dumb phones, which are basically like very basic. I got one for the last year for I turned my phone. My app is completely. Does that work? I'm interested in that. I love it. I love it. It's a thing called a brick and it's a solid like it's a it's a physical object that you have to have with you so you can leave it at home. And if you break your phone, you can set what apps you can use. And so I can go out and just have nothing but maps and Spotify or something like that, you know, and I can't be. Is this an ad for this device? I use to really money. I'm not getting any money. Phone like that now. No, not like that now, because I need it. And you just touch it to the brick and it breaks your phone on there. And it you preset what apps it will let you use. And if you leave that thing at home, you can't. I've talked to you about this, Adam. Sometimes I'll text Adam going, if you if there's an emergency at work, text Amanda because my phone's bricked. And I don't want to be on social media or anything like that. I need to do that. It's great. Yeah. It's just called. I got a real dumb phone when things are really heating up with the Oscars. And it's people think they're getting a call from a drug dealer. You know, it's just hilarious. So they're disappointed when it's you. But then I try to make up for it by actually selling them drugs. Drugs, I have no way of knowing how to guess. I'm like, I've got some really good by our heroine that can be, you know, and then I have to go out and find it. And how much you don't know how much you're going to charge for that much. No, imagine him dealing drugs. You would be a terrible drug dealer. Why? Because this is insulting drugs. Right. OK. All right. So what? That's like a big reason. A lot of people don't use the product base. A lot of people don't use the product. So much a little baggy of Coke would normally cause play this. OK. It's a it's a dark alley. There's one broken streetlight. Sure. So and I are looking for it. It's 1940. It's 1944 in your scenario. I'm looking for a fix. Yeah. You need a fix. Yeah. I'm your drug dealer. What's going on? Hold on. We're walking that board. You already can't say what if I'm a cop? All right. Hey, how about this? You have to have an alias. Yeah. You got to be like a little more covert about it. My name is Jasbo. Oh, my God. You're so bad. What's wrong with Jasbo? It's so terrible. Oh, I'm sorry. I got this. I got this. I just don't want the cops to get us. OK. Hey, Jasbo. What did you hear about me? We're looking for some stripes. What did you hear about me? I heard about you back at the wars. OK. What you what you want? Some stripes. Stripes. Yeah. I got stripes. I got black benes, JoJo's flip flops. Pink ladies. Pink ladies. All right. Squantos. Half prontos. How much? What do you got? A dollar. Done. See, I told you. Do you have anything stronger? Do you have any any blow? You want to blow? Yeah. I'll blow you. How much? I'll pay you whatever you want. OK. That's what I'm talking about. I just got to blow you right now. I've got, I've got us two thousand dollars. I sold a bunch of stripes really today. Here you go. Now let's get to me blowing you. I'm Jasbo. The blower. You know, you know how they say. I'm a top blower in this town. Jasbo's the name. Blowing's my game. I'll give you whatever you want. This is just a deposit. You know how they say if you're cop, you have to tell me. Yeah. Take off your shirt. I got to know if you're covered in ticks. I don't remember if this is even the same record. I didn't either. But it feels like it was a long time ago. It's time to wrap. Is this the same one? OK. Uh, anyway, I have no idea. Was it? It is, right? Because the YouTube. Yes. Is it the same one? I don't know. It started with auction videos. Seriously, I don't know. I took notes. All I know is that I'm paying you top dollar to blow you in this scenario. And my name's Jasbo. I got drugs for a dollar and I'm being paid to be filleted by a Jasbo covered in ticks. I also love the first time you're like, hey, I'm your drug dealer. I'm your drug dealer. Drug dealer here. Jasbo's the name. Drug dealings the game. Hear you. Hear you. And he comes around. Anyone watch illegal drugs? Jasbo's the name. Drug dealings the game. And I'll blow you. Well, I have to say, this is going to be an excellent show. All right, you knuckleheads, pipe down. My guest today is an Academy Award-winning director and screenwriter behind such films and TV shows as Terms of Endearment, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, and broadcast news. His latest movie, L.M.K., is in theaters now. I'm thrilled he's here today. James L. Brooks. Welcome. You're not going to remember this, but I'm going to thank you upfront because you did me a huge... When you were selling those flowers, that's how it all started. I was selling flowers. I was blind. You bought one and then paid for my operation. Oh, wait, that's a Charlie Chaplin movie. Now, you did a great thing for me, and you won't remember this in addition to other many great things that you've done for me. When I was a writer on The Simpsons and out of nowhere, they announced this complete unknown was going to be taking over for David Letterman. His name is Conan O'Brien. No one knew how to react. This is insane. And somehow they were just looking for any quote and they got to you somehow. And they said, well, Simpsons, James L. Brooks, what do you think of this? And you said, the moment I met Conan O'Brien, I knew that he would one day replace David Letterman as the host of Late Night. Now, that's a really funny joke. But thank God, the media had no sense of irony. So I read so many articles that were like, of course, James L. Brooks came to his defense and said, from the moment I met him, he was the only one. And I think I survived off that quote for a couple of months. I think what I actually said was he can't, we have him under contract. You know, someone did actually. It wasn't you. No, actually, I remember somebody coming to me, because you were under contract. I was under contract at the Simpsons when this insane thing happened and out of the blue. I mean, I got the word that, yeah, kid, you're it. When I was at a rewrite session in the basement of the record room at Warner Brothers, a phone call came through. Someone said, it's for you Conan. I took the phone and it was my agent, Gavin Pallone. And he said, you got 1230. And I said in a deflated tone, because I knew what I was in for. I said, I knew it. And because I was scared. And then the drama unfolded, which was, I was under contract at the Simpsons for another couple of years. And I remembered someone at Fox said, now hold on a second. He's got to buy his way out of his contract. I was driving a Ford Taurus at the time, which I still own, proudly. Oh man. Yeah. And they said, you got to buy your way out. And it wasn't you, it wasn't Richard Sakai. It was some guy at Fox was like, hey, wait a minute, but did they come to you ever and say, what do you think of this? No, I remember hearing that somebody told me, because you were quickly a star of the staff. I mean, that was, no, but it was insane. How quickly that happened. And then somebody said, he's wanted exactly this since he was 14. But I remember, I left SNL and I'm in New York and I get a call from Mike Rees and Al Jean. And they say, we hear you're available. Would you want to join us at the Simpsons? And this is 1991, I think. They said, Jim Brooks is coming in to hear all the pitches for the new season. And I started pitching you ideas and you were laughing. You have that amazing iconic laugh. And I was overjoyed. And then I had, you said yes to two of them. And then Al Jean said, tell them about the monorail. Oh, wow. And I pitched it then, wow. And I said, this is my first time in the room. That's one of the classic Simpsons shows. Well, I had just had two ideas accepted. And there's a big part of my, I don't know, Catholic, Irish Catholic, don't push it. Just you got to. This is going to anger him because it's weird. And I pitched you monorail and you laughed really hard. And that was one of my great days in show business to this day, was pitching to you and having you be happy. Oh, man. And hearing that famous laugh, a laugh that unbeknownst to me, I had heard on television growing up. That famous laugh of you that you can, do you hear it yourself when you watch Mary Tyler Moore show or Taxi, do you hear yourself? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. There's a sort of an echo quality that's attached to it recently, but no, yeah, I do. I mean, and terrible. You know, I've had people turn around during watching a comedy movie. And my laugh bothered them so much, they turned around and give me dirty looks for laughing at a comedy. Yeah, it is. We remember De Niro, that famous scene in the movie theater. Oh, Cape Fear. Cape Fear, being incredibly obnoxious and laughing. I mean, you have had an insane career. You've been so spectacularly successful. And I thought I'd start at the beginning, which is you've done all these iconic shows, revolutionary shows, movies, and you start out working on shows like My Three Sons or Andy Griffith Show. And I was wondering... My Mother the Car. My Mother the Car, a famous... A famous bomb. If you recall, it's about a man whose mother dies and comes back as a talking car. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't my idea, I wish it was. Is Jerry Van Dyke the star? Who is the star? I think it was Jerry Van Dyke, maybe, was the star of it. And it was a famous bomb. I don't know if they are told you, but it's a famous bomb. I never knew who was famous as being, I never knew that. When I was growing up. I think of it as a sort of moderate. No, no, I'm here to tell you. It was a famous bomb. It was a famous... Yeah, there you go. Iconic bomb, everything you do is iconic. But this was... And I was looking at these early shows and thinking, okay, you go on to do, of course, Miragella Moore and Taxi and Rota, all these things that you are, I think the best of, the very best of 1970s and 80s television, Simpsons. And then you do terms of endearment which to this day is a movie, my wife and I watch hundreds of times and beg anyone to watch with us again because it's so amazing and broadcast news. And it's just, it's ridiculous. Your resume is madness and feels like a fraud. Like you've made this up. This is an invention of AI. What were you learning on the Andy Griffith Show? What were you learning on those early shows? What did they teach you? That I might survive is the big lesson. I think I got out of it because I came out of here to, I came out to California from a job I really liked as a news writer in New York for one of the networks. Things had been, I had messing up pretty continually. And then think I got this job without being a college graduate that you're supposed to be a college graduate which was an usher at CBS. You're supposed to be a college graduate for that job because it was the... Like an internship. You had to have... A step on the ladder, yeah. Yeah, and because my sister knew the person who assisted the person who hired the ushers, I got the job. And it's so nuts when you look back because nothing would have happened unless that happened the way it worked out because then... It's always nuts to think how luck plays a part. And then the usher staff filled in for sort of minor jobs when the person who had the better job, the minor job though in the scheme of things went on vacation. And I filled in for somebody who was a copy boy desk assistant at CBS News and he didn't come back from vacation. And it was just, that was the break. Was he lost at sea? It sounds so ominous. Well, he died. Yeah, what did you do to him? It's clear what you did. That's where your deal with the devil starts. It's this unprecedented career. So you start that kind of writing and then at some point you have to say, all right, television writing is a possibility. I never saw it as a possibility. I never saw it as a possibility. Somebody I worked with when I had a job at a radio station, ended up in an independent documentary house here. And he offered me a job and I took it, which was leaving the first secure thing I had in my life, which was a job at CBS in the news division. And then I came out and I was laid off six months after I got here. It's not like I always wanted to write. I always wrote with no notion that I could do it as a profession. Never, honestly, never occurred to me. I mean, it was, my ambition was primarily to survive. I mean, that was it. And we were a grubby lot as documentary makers. And I went to a party on New Year's Eve and we were there being grubby and a tall, handsome man walks in in a tuxedo and it's Alan Byrne. And he was he had five shows that he created, comedy shows on the air at that time. And he said, asked me, he said, what do you do? And I said, well, I want to write. And he got me a job. That's what he knew. He didn't read anything or anything else. He was just he was just that sweet a guy. Yeah. And so we. Yeah. So he got me an assignment and then, you know, things started to work. You know, it's interesting that some of these shows, these early shows, like Andy Griffith show, the best episodes are still magical to me. And it's because it's character comedy. And I'm thinking at some point you must have learned it's it's not rapid fire jokes. One of the hallmarks of your career has been writing that way within characters. Uh, I guess. Wait a minute, I'm basing this off of. Hey, you live a learn, you know what I'm saying? Wait a minute, wait a minute. Somebody write down what that guy said. Wait a minute. I just came to Yoda and said, Yoda, I heard there is no try. There's just do what mean you. Who say? Who you talk to? Whatever, I guess. That's what it feels like right now. OK, forget that. I'm going back to just jokes. At AJ Bell, we believe investing is for everyone. Even people who know nothing about investing like Keith, who thought dividends were a boy band, Jessica, who thought compound interest was a prison dating app. And Sue, Sue thought FTSE 100 was a bit of under the table fun, which surprised her accountant. Oh, no. If we can make investing feel good for them, it's no wonder which have recommended us eight years running. AJ Bell, feel good investing. The value of your investments can go up or down. You know, it's funny because huge turning point in your life, Mary Tyler Moore show, a show that you create and you did the pitch with Alan Burns, with Alan Burns. But did you put you pitch it to and was Mary Tyler Moore in the room when you pitched it? I had I had done a show, Room 222, which was love that show. And Alan and I met on that show and Grant Tinker, who was the was the vice president at Fox and was married to Mary Tyler Moore and was every time you mentioned his name with the best boss that ever happened. Yeah, he saved he saved our rear ends. I mean, he was amazing in his support of writers. Just crazy, great. We all I mean, we all love that he was a magic man. We pitched to CBS for the Mary Tyler Moore show and we pitched a bad idea. I mean, our first idea was a bad idea and my father the car. So you pitch a bad idea. And it was an amazing pitch session because there were like a semi circle. Like you do it for like a bad science fiction movie, a semi circle of chairs with all these people in it and the the head of program. This is a true story. The head of the head of programming in the middle of it. And we our first idea was that she be divorced and coming off a divorce. And the guy actually said there are three things people don't like. Stories about divorce. I swear to God, he said this because we had a road to character in it. You know, wrote a Morgan Stern stories about divorce, Jews and mustaches. I'm not making you couldn't make this up, right? Oh, my God, he's looking at me, a Jew with a mustache. As he says it, that really happened in time and space. That actually happened. Yes, the guys look at my face saying that. So Grant went in and and and and we never knew it. He just said, wait for me. He came out. He looked a little angry and he had he had just, you know, used the weight that he had to save our asses. Unbelievable. So you do this show and it's interesting in retrospect. People say Mary Tyler Morsha was revolutionary. She's single. It's a show based about this woman. She has a career. She she doesn't have no steering wheel. She has no steering wheel. She has a wise cracking. There's no wise cracking kid. There's no, you know, she has a mustache. She has a mustache. She's secretly Jewish, Morenstein. But people talk about it now being revolutionary. And you never saw it that way while you were making it. You were just making a show, correct? And and at a certain point, we knew that we were making the right show at the right time because it was just sort of what was happening to to women in general then. So it was the timing, you know, the thing that you you can't create yourself. This was right. Right. And coincidentally, it was a time when the only time in the history of television when a new president of television came over and the first thing he did was cancel a bunch of top 20 shows because they were all those bucolic, petticoat, junction, you know, help. That's right. And he canceled them when they were enormously successful shows. It's never happened before. No, it wouldn't. Imagine today, I think at the time, CBS had maybe nine of the top, you know, 20 shows or they were just killing it with Westerns. And the president of the company said, I've always heard this rumor that it was wife who was embarrassed by this bucolic comedy and thought that it was lame. I don't know if that's true, but he came in and he said, let's get rid of all of these. Which can you imagine? Enormously successful, highest rated shows. Yeah. Yeah. And got rid of all of them and put a complete new stamp on what CBS was all about. But I've always been. And a half year earlier, one of the first shows to come out of that was All in the Family as he built a new CBS. And then at the last minute, we were in a death time period with the Mary Tyler Moore show and he changed us and put us behind All in the Family. Or else I don't think we would have happened. I think we would have been lost. I think you said no one. And again, you'll tell me I never said that. Anyone who sets out to make a revolutionary TV show is going to. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I think with Room 222, because it was I think the second show to have a black lead, the first show to have two main black characters. You know, so that was, you know, that felt good. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was happening. And but this, you know, certainly didn't see a comic. I remembered Room 222 seeing that and noticing the difference that these did seem as you know, usually when high school students were served up to us, it was, you know, guys in Letterman sweaters and it was it felt very much like Ozzie Nelson, Ricky Nelson kind of stuff. And this felt like people I knew. I wasn't in high school. I think it's 1969. So I was about six years old when that show came out. But I remembered thinking these feel like people I see in my life and they feel authentic. I didn't even probably I didn't know the word authentic, but it felt real to me. The director producer of the show, Jean Reynolds, who was, you know, when we were working for him and he kept on sending, he's kept on sending me back to the high school, kept on sending me back. I finished research. I'd go to him. I said, yeah, I got it. No, you don't go back. And I sat in classes for a while and there was a teacher showed up, you know, and I was hanging at this high school at his insistence and do that now and you're in trouble. You know, I'm working on a TV show. I don't think you are, sir. Come with us. I thought it was raining. That's why I'm wearing this coat. What do you have all that candy? Now that's a different story. I have low blood sugar. I think a huge, you know, it's interesting, too. This was an era when I feel like there was real leadership in television, real, you know, people like Grant Tinker, who had taste and would go out on a limb and they weren't just trying to follow the latest trend. When I was in college and working on the Shira magazine, the lampoon, I was there all the time. I practically lived in that building because I was obsessed with comedy. And one night there was a knock at the door and I opened the door and there in a double-breasted suit is Grant Tinker and he was standing with Brandon Tartikov. Wow. And they were doing some event at Harvard and they saw this building and they knew, you know, some funny writers are coming out of that place and they just wanted to see it. So they knocked on the door and I opened the door and they asked for a tour. I was 19, I think, and I just led them around the building and showed them everything and answered all their questions and worked up the nerve to make a couple of quips along the way. And then as they walked out the door, you know, I remembered Brandon. Grant Tinker looked like someone out of guys and dolls. He had like a pinstripe suit, you know, but I led them around and then I, you know, took them to the front door and I remembered Brandon Tartikov just saying like, well, Conan, you're a funny guy. I think I lived off that for a decade. Did you ever tell them that after you had arrived in television? I don't think so. I mean, I did a pilot with with Robert Smiley when I did a pilot with Brandon Tartikov. I don't know that I took the chance in our one or two meetings with him. Amazing. And these were people with real talent and taste and sensibility. And I think that's in short supply these days. So many people are running scared in not just television, but film. Because people are running for cover that it's, I don't know if we'll see there like again, people that have data. What's that? It was data was all, you know, that these are this is before data. Yes. Yes. I mean, they had their thing, but it was very rudimentary. No, now we have actual computers that tell us we don't like Jews, mustaches or divorce. Turns out they were right. I don't know why we fought it so hard. I'm very curious about Mary Tyler Moore because she she played a big part in my life because when I first got my late night show, for reasons I still don't understand and I was under fire for this, this kid doesn't have it, who is he? He seems awkward. Mary Tyler Moore was my second guest. She was the guest on the first guest on the second show and then came back routinely and was an incredible talk show guest. And of course, I couldn't believe that I was sitting here talking to someone who was coming through my television, Dick Van Dyke show on a black and white TV in my kitchen in Brooklyn, Mass, and I'm eating baloney strips. My mother put in a bowl and I'm watching this person. Yeah, I was being punished. I was on war rations, but that was a big meal back then. But I mean, it was a big it was a it was a big. I had this feeling of she is making eye contact with me and using my first name. And it still seems unreal to me. What was working with her like on that show? I'm trying to phrase this so that I can really visit, there was an extraordinary thing she did. The great star of the show and she she used all the power she had not to have the power and to be and to make it a company and to make everybody feel like that. An ensemble. Yeah. Yeah, so it was never like we had a worry what would Mary think? I mean, we'd have a run through, we'd try and fix whatever, needed fixing and and she never came to the office. We were on and at seven years we got I remember the best thing I did in my life is they were saying, let's go out while we're ahead. Let's call it a go. Let's call it a go at six and I said seven. So that was that was the I just bought a boat. The best word. That's the great motivator. Buy a boat and you'll do three more seasons. Oh, so I'd never I never believed get out while you're ahead. No, if I buy a boat, it's going to be called the SS right it to the bottom. But so so you wanted seven and I know she did have a note or I believe she had a note on the final episode. Yes, one of the few times that she's never the first time the only time seven years never did it, never came to our office to to say something. It was nuts. It was nuts. The nation stopped for a final show. It was like crazy. You can't there's I you know, it was crazy the extent of it. Do you remember the share or the number that it got? Because that's an era that has passed. You know, the Super Bowl wouldn't get the share of the number. The numbers. 52 percent. I'm not. I always heard it was 51. For getting Iowa. OK, OK. Incredible. And so she had but she had a note on the last episode, which was that everybody had said their farewell and we hadn't done it for her. Oh, wow. And I don't I don't can't imagine I don't I can't explain it. But then we did it and and it's one of the best moments I've ever been part of. Is it the shuffling out together? Oh, that was that was on the set. That was great. We were running it and they get into a group hug at they're all saying goodbye and it's over. They're in a group hug. They're all hugging each other. Six I think six people hugging each other and they're crying. And they said there was something where who had Kleenex in the hug and in dress. We said no, no, the Kleenex is on the table. So the group hugging each other has to shuffle over to the table. It's such a I mean, I remember it was the way to go out. It was just it was just the way to go out. And there was a famous episode where the lights. Mary is going to have a party. Her party is always badly. She says that Johnny Carson is coming to the party. Of course, Johnny Carson is the biggest star in television. We are excited that he's going to show up. And all we knew is that he was he would do the show. And then we made that show because we heard that he do it. Yeah. So so you made the show because Johnny Carson said he'd do it, which was an impossibility. He didn't do things. It's not like today where everybody's everywhere. It just was you couldn't believe that the most famous man in America is going to and who doesn't do anything other than the Tonight Show is going to show up. And the lights go out. Mary's apartment loses its lights. And then Johnny Carson enters in the dark and you hear him. And it was never saw him. You never saw him. And it was you got Johnny Carson and had the balls. Yeah, it's great. You're never going to. And you heard him. And you couldn't believe that this show would get Johnny Carson and then not show him and just could hear his voice. And it was just magical. I think about you have this run in television and then you say, OK, I'm going to do movies. And that's the leap that I always think is fascinating when someone says, I think I could do this. I could make a movie. I would, of course, I've never had that impulse. I've never thought I could direct. But clearly, this is just something that was in you. You knew this is something I could. I can't explain it. I had no ambition to be a director. I just simply didn't. So your first feature film is Terms of Endearment. Yeah. OK. A movie you can go back to and back to and back to again. And it's become more relevant because of the way we experience news now. It is prophetic. You know, talking about emotion and drama being inserted into the news and people being a news man, being relatable. You're taking a broadcast. I'm sorry about broadcasting. I'm sorry. Thank you so much. I was I was trying to think. Yeah, I was trying to I was just trying to think how to save them. I just want I just want you to know there was nothing. I didn't recoil. Excuse me. I actually wanted to come to his aid. Me explain something to you. Kind of guy. Explain something to you. Maybe you haven't watched it in a while. I'm doubling down. Terms of Endearment begins. Oh, my God. Hey, begins in a news. You've got to make this podcast less. I just bought a boat. OK. OK. I apologize and you will fix this. I know you will. No, you have to leave it. No, but all. And if you say it, listen, I'm going to make it very clear to you that I was right the first time. And I find that if I never apologize and I'm seeing this play out in public life here, we go. But yeah, the original Terms of Endearment was a version of broadcast news. And it's a really weird turn when everyone decides to abandon the newsroom. But. Did you feel comfortable the minute you were directing? Did you did it feel to you like this was? Oh, I this is this is I feel like a duck in water, you know. I was I was working with, you know, with Jack Nicholson, the actor, the guy, the star. He made it great because he'd come up to me, you know, sort of like he said, you want to know the worst direction you gave today. And then you say you want to know the best direction. And so he was tutoring you a little bit. He was he was being great to me. He was just he was just he was just sort of sort of three-quartered kidding, but just in my corner. And and that's that's what that's that's that made it work. I would imagine you'd be intimidated a little by him. He was you know, just he still is a massive star. No, he was great. I mean, great actor. I mean, you know, I mean, you know, that was there was a scene. I think I was in that movie. There was a scene. I came to him and he said he this actually happened. I said, too angry, too. It's just too angry. And and then I said again, you know, that it was just too angry. And then he did the scene and sort of blew up that I kept on doing this, you know, just he was just bluing up not performance. And I said, that's it. And then that was, you know, and then we both I mean, he broke up and I broke up. You know, but it was it. It was just it seemed too angry until suddenly it was like nobody had ever done it just like that. I'd always heard, is it true that Burt Reynolds turned down that role and did stroke race instead? That's I know he did a picture. He did a different picture. He did a picture with like like 12 women in it and him or something like that. That's the movie we all want to make. Yeah. And and and and he was the number one box office. Yeah. And he did turn it down and and and he had said he'd do it. And then he turned it down for this movie. And, you know, and I had the number one star doing my movie. And then I got a phone call from his press agent. Burt decided not to do the movie, but he wants you to know he loves you. And and and he sent a little jacket, a little that that that the jacket. I just looked at it and it was media and I'm a lot. Oh, man. Oh, bird. Yeah. It was just a jacket he was wearing that day. Yeah. It was just whatever he was. It had Burt written in it. Yeah. Just a gun smoke on it. Absolutely incredible. I mean, I I intend to embarrass you with this, but you've got three Oscars, 22 Emmys, a Golden Globe. You need to immediately be in a Broadway show because we need to get you a Tony. And I think you're set, right? A Grammy. A Grammy. Damn it. You need a Grammy. Well, Golden Globes could be the G in there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You got to get the E got. That's there are very few that can claim that. I'm sorry. I think these are good ideas. I'm pitching you. Oh, you used to like my ideas. Now, check, please. Please. We try again with a different pasta. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. You took a hate us from directing for how many years? I don't know, man. Hey, are you high? I don't know, man. I don't know, man. Leave me alone. You got nothing better to talk about. This is the first movie. Elma Kay, your new movie is the first one you've directed in 15 years, I believe. And did it feel when you got on set like you're just right back where you started? There was I was producing other other other films and and and I was and I'm on set all the time when I do that and I was working. I just, you know, I don't even I have no explanation for it. And and then I went I was going nuts because I think, you know, I'm not myself unless I'm writing and and and and and and that's an element case, you know, happened that. Yeah. And you have terrific cast. Yeah. I was very happy to see Julie Kavner in there. Oh, man. I mean, she's I know she's been a long part of your history. But it's I got to know her at the Simpsons and she's just a force. It's God. You I'm think we look at the movie. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because you're going to feel great. You're going to feel great seeing her. She she takes. She starts the movie. That's what I love. She's the narrator and she starts by looking and I love the narrator saying, I'm the narrator and this is what's happening. I felt very taken care of by her, you know. Oh, great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she's I mean that that voice was first burned into my brain on Rota, I believe, is where I first heard it. Yeah. When she was a kid. Yeah. Yeah. That was yeah. And yeah. And it's just she just cuts through everything. And I know. Oh, I know her. Yeah. She's going to hold my hand. And and and take me through this journey. I show me the person who doesn't love her. I mean, it's just especially, you know, and that happens in the in the movie. And she's the one she's literally the narrator taking you through it. Did it feel to you when you were making it like this is the experience I've had before after taking a break for a while? Did it feel like, yes, I'm putting on an old an old coat? This fits this process, you know. You know, when you're going to direct, you leave the world, you know, it's but, you know, you leave the world even more intense than when you're writing, I think, when you when God knows you leave the world a bit and these days to have an idea and to say, yeah, it's sort of funny and sort of, you know, maybe. And to be able to get a movie made out of it, you got to appreciate the shit out of it. You know, because it's it's it's it's not those kind of days. And specifically, I mean, how is it different just that there's so much? I mean, I was the thing about data, you know, that you know, it's just the work because you run the numbers and stuff like that. And there are no there are no numbers to run on. I got an idea and, you know, so so so you're lucky. You're you're you know, it's it's great. You get you get to make it. You probably won't remember this, but you came on my show early, early days, I think 1994. I might have still been writing it. Yeah. And. I spent a long time on that script. Yeah. But you you came on my talk show, the the late night show and you we got into this conversation about how well you write for women, which is in full force in L.M. McKay and you talked then and I thought I'd revisit it now just briefly, which is that you were raised by women and you think that had a profound effect on your ability to write those characters. The conversations of women were, you know, my whole upbringing. It was hard stuff going on. And and I was a child and I always heard my mother and her two sisters were enormously close and I just hurt and I had an older sister who helped raise me because, you know, circumstances were just tough for a while. And I hurt and I did. I was I I grew up hearing them talk. It's it's it's also interesting to me that in this movie, past trauma informs everything that's happening for the character of Ella. It's like the things that she's gone through with her father and that of her mother. It's all in and her family and even her husband. People are she's she's not catching a break from a lot of people in her life. And and it's it's interesting to me that it's not unlike your story where you had some traumatic experiences when you were younger. That's the same. But but she's she's a remarkable kid. Yeah, she's a remarkable kid who as a remarkable kid has to handle things. No kid should have to handle. And and and and and the thing that that held it up for a long time was finding out who could play the part because because, you know, the the thing that was in my mind was to cut was I always loved those Catherine Hepburn, Audrey Hepburn movies, the 1950s movies that was I mean, I was I was nuts about them. And this is this was really, you know, me trying to copy them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's fascinating. I think homage is the better word. Yeah. Everything's an homage. Writer's Guild is an homage. In tribute to in tribute to. But it's interesting because my experience with you on the Simpsons was you would always remind us make sure you're writing for Lisa, make sure you're writing for Marge, because left to my own devices, I would only write about Mr. Burns. I mean, I only wanted, you know, because because he had unlimited wealth and was in evil, you that's a fantasy for me that I can you can have a character who has a hyperbaric chamber, golden robots, you can release hounds, anything can happen. And if left if I was just left alone in a room, every single episode I wrote would have been Mr. Burns, Ghost of College, Mr. Burns. Mr. Burns gets his period, you know, which is one I wrote projected because they said science doesn't back this. But anyway, that's that was your voice was often heard in the room saying, we need to make sure that this this family exists and that all of these characters are utilized and that they're real. Even if amazing, weird, strange things are happening in a cartoon, it has to have this inner integrity, which I still think is bullshit. I just wanted to get you here to tell you that. Yeah. I mean, it's it's always funny. It's always the object. But yeah, but I think yeah, I think it yeah, I think that was always true about that show, I think is true about the show. Yeah, it's unbelievable that it's still going. I mean, to me, it's been I left that show in 1993 and said, well, you know, I'm out of here and this thing's got another year to go. It's going to fold without me. Yeah, there's no way this continues without me, which I say whenever I leave a room, I say that at parties. I say that when I leave a restaurant, this Denny's will surely perish without my so I'm shocked when I see them still functioning. But I yeah, and then I've had the experience of going back 30 years later and they're some of the same people are there. It's absolutely incredible. They're chained to the wall. They're skeletons. I mean, it's incredible. But it's one of the great success stories in TV history. Absolutely amazing. It's amazing to me. It's amazing to everybody on the show. You know, it's just it is it is it's it's yeah. Yeah, I remember when I remember that and we went on when the Fox Network was yes, was was on on life support. Yes. And then we got the cover of a magazine sort of like Antenna News or something like that. It was it was it was it was you never heard of the magazine, but we were on the cover and I put it on my office wall. And then and then all of a sudden that wall was covered with covers. Yeah. Yeah. It was like crazy. It was a phenomenon and it was the biggest thing. Michael Jackson. I mean, talk about Johnny Carson doing the doing Mary Charlie Moore as a guest star. You think well, you can't top that. But Michael Jackson in I think 1988 or 89 appearing as a guest star. And you had Carson too, right? Didn't yeah, Carson was there. I was there the day Carson came in to do his voice because he's I think he's helping out Krusty at one point. And it was just after Johnny had retired and wasn't doing anything. And then he said he'd do the Simpsons and I burned into my brain that day because he came in coolest looking guy ever. He had a file of facts and two packs of cigarettes. He sat down, he did his voices, he did his records. And then we of course had a million things we wanted him to sign. And so he sat there signing and started talking to us and we were asking questions. I think he liked being around a room of writers and he missed it. And he chatted with us. And then I went out, I had to do something. And when I came back, he was just walking to his white Corvette. Every year, I think he got a brand new white Corvette and he got in it and he had his cool sunglasses on and he said, I don't do a Johnny Carson, but excuse me, how do I and I say, you go down there and you take a right. And he said, thank you. And he took off. That was pretty good. He took off. He took off and he took a right hand turn. And just as he took the right hand turn, I remembered it's a left. Oh, no. And I'm dying and I'm watching, watching. And what here he's going is to a cul-de-sac that takes you pretty much to like Olympic Boulevard, but there's you can't access it because it's a lot. Oh, you. And I waited and then after about a minute and a half, the car came back the other way. And so I know that Johnny Carson was thinking, fucking asshole. Looking crazy. You should have said I said left more on. I said left. You white hair. Fuck. Oh, my God. Man, opportunities missed. I wish you had been there. But yeah, absolutely amazing. This has been a joy. Thank you so much for taking the time. Congrats on your new movie, L.M.K. And just getting to any chance I ever have to connect with you is magical for me. You've made a huge difference in my life and I can't thank you enough. Mumble, mumble. Yeah, mumble, mumble, mumble, mumble, mumble. No, thank you. Thank we're going to put in using AI. We're going to put you in the end saying, please, Conan, you're the most talented person I've ever met. And you're going to hear it later and there's going to be a lawsuit. And we're going to insert a lot of things. Conan, you look fantastic. But we'll keep this part in as well. Yes, you keep this in exposing my terrible crime. At AJ Bell, we believe investing is for everyone. And when we say everyone, we mean your dad, Dan, Daniel, Dean, Dave, Del, Del's delivery driver, Denise, Denise's dentist, Dinesh and Devon's strongest man, Donathan, Donathan, Donathan, that can't be right. Donathan. Well, whatever your name is, if you're a real person, investing is for you too. AJ Bell, feel good investing. The value of your investments can go up or down. I'll admit I'm a little terrified because Aaron Blair, aka Blay, says he has an idea for a segment. And, you know, I guess we don't know what it is. We don't know what it is. Yeah. So here we go. Blay, I tremble, but you have the floor. So I don't normally do this, as you know. And I like to think of myself generally as a unifier bringing people together. I don't want to be divisive. I don't want to tear us apart. What is this? As a group. But, you know, sometimes this preamble is going on forever. You know, sometimes a man comes to a time in life. Well, it's not a very, there's not a lot to not a lot of meat on this bone. So I'm trying to draw that out. You threw a droid under the bus for watching. OK. But also I will say shots were taken at me. So I feel like, you know, you know, turn about is fair play. I still don't know what you're talking about. And we're 40 minutes away. I'm going to get to it now. So Chalemi and I, after every podcast, we clean up. You know, we want to we want to leave a good studio for a nice clean studio for the next people coming in. Sure. And the other day, I found this in Matt Gorley's chair. Oh, no. Oh, I used Kleenex. Oh, well, obviously. I squirreled away. I didn't know that was there. In the chair, which I cleaned up and I just. It's just a little bit of a mess. Matt came at me with my multiple drinks in a previous segment. I was just curious about it. And so I saw this. Oh, I got him. I got him. I obviously would not have left that there if I knew. Yeah. First of all, first of all, Matt is an extremely cleanly person. I am cleanly. I can't speak anymore. No, he is one who cleanly. No, he is one who cleanly clings to this. Matt is a man of cleanness. You are. I barely shower. No, that is trying to help you. No, that is uncharacteristic of Matt. And I'm sure he just forgot it. I find it interesting that you think he came at you for your different drinks because I thought it was just him saying, hey, what's that all about? But it's a deep wound for you. I didn't realize you were now a ringless golem in your cave. He clearly came at me. He just like the drinks backfired on you. I knew this is going to happen. It was hostile. I'm just saying you went at him was a little hostile. I like to bring people together. But I you can say that, but I don't think you do. I think it's indicative of a bigger issue, which is we don't really clean up after ourselves that well. You especially do. I just miss that you have a thousand drinking vessels and none of them get picked up afterwards. OK, let's look at the whole picture. When you guys say we've got to clear out of this room and make way for the next, you know, taping, I'm thinking to myself, this is my building. This is the only reason this exists is for Conan O'Brien needs a friend. This is my studio. And then it suddenly turned out to be this air B and B that I get to hang out in for like 20 minutes and then I better get my ass out of here and you better clean up. No, not at all. That's insane. This is outrageous. This is my I'm a hearse and this is Hearst Castle. One, I've got three mugs here. Two are filled with coffee because I drink a lot of coffee. And I've also got a tea and I've also got these Kleenex, which by the way, I'm more than happy to throw all over the place. I got to clean that up. Oh, I got to clean that up. Ah, shoot. I am happy. I am happy. There's just tissues everywhere. Listen to me. I didn't claw my way to the top of this business so that I could better get out of here quickly to make way for the other podcast that's coming in, hang in with Joe Billabye. But first, I better clean up after myself. Let's see now. I've got all these little cups. Better take them in. Uh oh, he's coming. I better wash everything thoroughly. No, no, no. E.B. does run a tight ship. She does. She does. And you are a little scared of her. And we all are. I'm terrified of E.B. And I will say, Erica Brown and this is her place. She runs it. She's the queen. And when she even looks at me if I'm using one of those metal straws, I know my only thought in my head is not to enjoy my Haley Bieber smoothie since no longer named the Haley Bieber smoothie, by the way. I don't know if there was some. Yeah, I think she got into a fight with. I don't think maybe her the contract expired. Oh, wow. It's no longer called a Haley Bieber smoothie. And that means you could get in there. I want to get in there. It could be your smoothie. I want to get that smoothie. I think I probably have to add something. So I'll just say like throw some, I don't know, put a Snickers bar in there and call the Conan O'Brien. Put a little creme de menthe in there. So, yeah, my point was where were we? I was saying, you're talking a big game about making a mess. But if Erica Brown walks in here, you will. Erica Brown, yes. Clean up after yourself because you're scared a little bit, as we all are. Erica Brown out by the kitchen. If I even see her, I start scrubbing surfaces. I said, you're talking such a big game. No, that's true. But in here, oh, no, I might risk the disapproval of blame. Oh, that's it. Fuck that. Fuck that. I hired you when you were a fetish. I was the one that removed your umbilical cord. You still had it attached. This is crazy because normally I would be defending you. I'm your biggest defender. And now, since you know, you teed me up, I say, you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, no, if you have to do a little cleaning afterwards, Blay, I mean, I've kept you in your in your faux goofy watches. That's right. You live in an apartment that's filled with little action figures and posters. Lifesize Predator statue. Yeah, yeah. Well, one day. Yeah, saving up for it. Saving up. Yeah. It was it was either that or a wife. Or much needed. Let's see, life or life size Predator statue. Anyway, Blay, I respect where you're coming from. It's just that you're completely wrong. OK, I apologize. You and chills. I'm very conscientious about that thing. It's not like I ever walked in on Kesha peeing or anything like that. So. It was all in good fun. I again, it was all in in jest. I really don't care. I just was seeing it as a good opportunity to get you back for the drinks. Listen, we got and I also got burned by Conan like you got burned with the drinks. So now we're even listen. Listen, the important thing is that if people are hating each other and trying to get each other, we've recreated my childhood. I'm very happy. I hate how you have like pulled the strings to make us all go at each other when we should be going after you. Why are we divided? We should be united. You're right. The devil's greatest trick is making you believe he doesn't exist. Well, anyway, Conan O'Brien needs a friend. The happy friendly show by a guy with no inner demons. And just like that, he was gone. All right, everybody, clean up after yourselves. Conan O'Brien needs a friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonam of Sessian and Mack Gourley, produced by me, Matt Gourley, executive produced by Adam Sacks, Jeff Ross and Nick Leo, theme song by the White Stripes, incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples, engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns, additional production support by Mars Melnick, talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista and Brick Khan. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco Hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com slash Conan. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. 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