Adam Talks Scary Stories with Unspookable

PINNER Hello, boils and ghouls It is I, the scaer rater I've been dying to welcome you to this very last stop on the cookie spooky countdown Do you have your flashlight? Good, you're blanket to hide under Yes, your courage Excellent Because you're going to need it Okay, okay, I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself Hi, I'm Jonathan Kormer, the host of Dorktail Storytime And ever since I was a kid, I've loved scary stories I was a huge fan of Arilstein's Goosebumps His stories helped me explore the unknown and taught me how to cope with my fears And that, my friends, is what the spooky season is all about Facing our fears, having fun with the dark and mysterious And realizing we're braver than we think That's why three of your favorite family-friendly podcasts conjured up the cookie spooky countdown challenge Just for you, together, grim, grimmer, grimest, unspookable, and Dorktail Storytime Have given you 13 episodes full of thrills, chills, and ghostly giggles And look at you, you made it all the way to the end of the countdown And we have something extra special for your grand finale Elise Peresian, the host of unspookable, sits down with Adam Gidwitz, the creator and host of grim, grim, grimest And New York Times bestselling author to talk about scary stories themselves Why do we tell them? What purpose do they serve? And what has Adam learned in all his years of studying and retelling grim's fairy tales? It's a conversation you don't want to miss So gather close, my little creatures of the night Perhaps Adam will finally answer the question Why do so many of us go crazy for the creepy? Hahahaha Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs Shopify especially designed to help you start, run, and grow your business With easy customizable themes that let you build your brand Marketing tools that get your products out there Integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time From startups to scale-ups, online, in-person and on-the-go Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup Did you know that you can listen to grim, grim, grimest without any ads interrupting the story? Just subscribe to Pinnah Not only will you get to hear me tell these fairy tales straight through the way I tell them to kids You get access to tons of other awesome original shows and audiobooks all ad-free Subscribe to Pinnah at pinnah.fm That's p-i-n-n-a.f-m and use code grim with 2M's to get 30% off an annual subscription And remember, it's not a smurf Happy spooky season everyone! I'm Elise Perogen Host of the podcast Unspookable And from all of us involved, we hope you've been enjoying the cookie spooky countdown of hand-picked episodes from the podcast's Dorktails, Unspookable, and Grim Grimmer Grimest As our skier-rater, Jonathan shared, this is the last stop on our journey And today we are thrilled to welcome to the show the creator and host of grim, grim, grim, grimest and New York Times best-selling author Adam Gidwitz Adam, thank you for joining us Hi Elise, it is so nice to meet you. I'm a big fan of what you do on your podcast and I'm really excited to be here and talking to you Likewise, now before we get spooky, what kind of kid were you? The type who loved scary stories or the one who slept with an eye light? I did not love scary stories as a kid and I'm going to admit something really terrible and probably everyone in your audience is going to stop listening as soon as I say this. Are you ready? I don't even really like scary stories now. That's not true. I love telling scary stories But I don't love hearing them. It's much more fun to scare other people than to be scared yourself. So I love scaring myself by trying to tell the scariest story I can. But I don't want to hear you tell me a scary story. That's going to give me nightmares. So absolutely as a kid I read like mysteries, I loved encyclopedia brown, adventure stories like tintin but now scary stuff. I'm way way to that nervous scared. I'm not that kind of guy. Can you remember the first story that really scared you? The first story that really scared me was almost certainly from, oh no, I was going to say something wrong. I thought it was going to be scary stories to tell in the dark the Alvin Schwartz collection, which is just a fantastic book. But no, the first and best scary stories I ever heard and I did love these I must admit. There was a counselor at the summer camp I went to. I went to a summer camp in New Hampshire. But there they brought in this one counselor from England and he had this incredible voice. He was much older than the other counselors. And he had the most amazing original I think scary stories that he would tell. And he would do it around the campfire. And he would tell I remember one scary story about a man in a manor house. I didn't even know what a manor house was. And like this purple fog creeping across the lawn or another one where this guy was like holding a gun and this creature was coming closer and closer. It was like a lot about like people sitting there as something terrifying came closer and closer. His first name was Andrew and I would love to find this counselor again because yeah, he taught me what it feels like to hear a good scary story. And I guess I got to admit if it's a really good one if it's told really well the way that you guys do the way that I try to do. If it's got maybe some humor as well as some like artistry and also the scares. Yeah, I guess I like scary stories fair enough. It's the whole paradox of scary stories. It's like the movie doesn't always feel good in the moment, but it's also a lot of fun. Yeah. When you tell a spooky story, do you feel like you ever scare yourself a little bit? Very honestly, I have to. If I am not legitimately scared by the story I'm telling, you're not going to be. Yeah. And it's the same with all of the feelings that I try to create in my stories. When I'm writing a story, if I don't literally laugh out loud at a joke that I'm writing or something funny that I'm writing, he doesn't go in because it's not funny enough. And if by the end I don't have tears in my eyes at the cathartic resolution, then you're not going to. And so it doesn't go in. It's got to improve. And certainly with the scary parts. If I don't feel my heart beating faster, if there's not like a tingling at the ends of my fingers, then I know that you won't feel any of those things. And so it doesn't go in. And now I have to admit something which is not only do I have to feel those feelings, I also when I'm writing always tell my stories out loud to myself. And then I write down what I'm saying. I used to be a teacher and the oral storytelling tradition is really important to me and very much what I do and you do. And I write usually in the park like I just came back from writing in the park this morning. And so I will be talking out loud to myself, writing a story, and I'm laughing if it's funny, and I'm scaring myself and like I'm getting teary. I look like a crazy person, but that's the only way I can write a good story for you all. Well, I know we appreciate your dedication, the emotional dedication to telling a good story. Yeah, you appreciate me humiliating myself in public for your enjoyment. I'm not surprised that you do, but I'm glad. So here's a big one. Why do you think that people seek out scary stories? So I usually think of this through the lens of scary fairy tales in particular, but I believe this is absolutely true for all scary stories. Fairy tales in particular are tell the story of a kid almost always going through really difficult things and then coming out the other side. I really, really believe in I love stories with happy endings. I want scary terrifying things to happen all through the middle, but at the end I usually want some sort of triumph. And that's because I think scary stories are an attempt for us to practice the hard task of living, of growing up, of getting through difficult stuff. I mean, if you think about what a kid's life is like from the outside, a teenager or a kid, you know, they are literally forced to go somewhere every day that they didn't choose to go to. They have to listen to whoever happens to be in charge in the room. They happen to be in in that moment without any choice. Sometimes they're like, okay, take off your clothes, put on some other weird clothes that are probably stinky and go run around and do uncomfortable things in front of other people. Like, if an adult wouldn't put up with any of this stuff, but kid and then who knows who's in those rooms with you, maybe your best friend, maybe some kids who are super mean, maybe you have a crush on somebody over there and everyone else is going to find out about it. It's literally terror all the time. So horror stories and fairy tales, scary fairy tales, give us a chance to experience things that are hard, scary, and then realize that we can get through them. It is about the process of growing up and getting stronger and getting wiser. So that's why I think it's valuable to tell them. I think that's 100%. I really resonate with so much of what you just said. And I think our next question kind of gets you into narrow down even a little bit more into what you were saying. And I think our unspookable listeners may have a strong opinion about this. But I'd love to hear your thoughts. Can scary stories actually teach us something important about life? Or are they just for fun? If you've lived into grim, grim, or grimace, you know that I tell these scary fairy tales, but also you hear the kids that I'm telling the stories to react in real time as I tell the stories. And that to me is the most valuable part of it, or often the most enjoyable also, because kids are processing and dealing and you get to hear how another kid processes and deals with these scary or unfair things. So much of what happens in these fairy tales is deeply unfair. There's one of my favorite episodes is called the Crab Man's Daughter. It's based on a grim fairy tale, no not a grim fairy tale, an old German fairy tale by Franz Xavov on Schunvet called the Jaws of the Merman. And in this story, there are these girls who start swimming in a lake and they start transforming into mermaids. And this king brings his other kingly friends and they want to force these girls to marry them. You should never force anyone to marry anybody. And the kid listeners are so furious about it. One girl says, you shouldn't give in, you should just revolution. Which is like, yes, you should just revolution. Love it. And then when the girls finally turn into mermaids and then there's this bridge of water comes out of like this giant mermaid rises out of the lake and opens her mouth and a bridge of water comes out onto the land, puts out the fire where these girls are going to be burned. And the girls walk over the fire into the jaws of the mermaid. This other girl says, we are women and we are terrifying. And again, right, it's like how do we take these unfair, scary situations that we are all actually often in and how are we brave and terrifying ourselves? And how can we revolution? Because sometimes you need one. Tell me about it. Yeah, thank you for for sharing that perspective it again. Yeah, really resonates. Switching gear is slightly. I do have a vocabulary quiz for you. Oh no. I think I think you can do it. What is the difference between a myth of folktale and a fairy tale? Oh gosh. Okay. So are you just like couldn't we just look this up? Why are you putting me on the spot right now just to see whether I know or not? Yeah, it's a challenge. Yeah. Yeah, adults don't know everything. It is a challenge. A myth of folktale and a fairy tale. Okay. Well, I believe a myth is usually related to core beliefs of a group of people. You know, the Greek myths are not just stories, but they also relate to the core beliefs of the ancient Greek population. Having to do with gods and explanation of natural. Then so I think that's what myths are related to like the core beliefs of group of people. I think I'll talk about my head. Folktales versus fairy tales. I mean, I have a very specific viewpoint and opinion on this. So in German, there is no and most of the stories that I work with are from the German tradition. They're not called fairy tales. The brothers Grimm called their stories Merschen, which means household tales. And so they when those household tales were first translated into English. The German, the Grimm brothers first published their Merschen in 1812. They were translated into English in about 1824. I think about 10, 12 years later. The English publishers were like, what are we going to call these? And in the English aisle, the British Isles, there were already stories about fairies certainly coming from the Celtic traditions and the Irish traditions and the Northern English traditions as well as all over England. And they were like, oh, it's like fairy tales. So we'll call these fairy tales. But there are in the German stories literally no fairies, not one fairy in the Grimm fairy tales. So fairy tales have become like what we call fairy tales are modeled on essentially the Grimm fairy tales, which often have a younger protagonist who goes through some sort of Cinderella-like transformation perhaps or journey. Whereas a folktale can really be any story that comes is told in the oral tradition and comes from a group of people that is passed around. But really those fairy tales are just folktales, but it's a certain style of folktale that was then kind of misnamed when it was published in English. I don't know. You probably have a better and clearer answer than I have. No, this is why we asked you the question because we get fun and incredible facts like that that, you know, Webster's dictionaries and just going to give us right off the top Google search. Yeah, Websters, come on. Get off your keyster Webster. Do better. Yeah. We love you, Miriam Websters. We do. We do. So what do you think makes a great scary story for kids different from one for grownups? That's very interesting. I recently got to interview a wonderful author who writes horror stories mostly for grownups. So he wrote his first kids one recently. His name is Paul Tremblay. He wrote a really incredible adult novel just for adults called the cabin at the end of the world terrifying. And one of the things about that story that is different from the one that the book that he wrote for young people called another is in another as scary as it is. There are glimmers of hope and then ultimately triumphant hope. I can't say that for the cabin at the end of the world. You know, there is sort of sense in a lot of adult horror that things get bad and then really bad and then worse and then everybody's dead. And I think in stories for young people, as I've said often and what I prefer is things get bad and then really bad and then really bad and then we find a way for cathartic triumph at the end. That's one of the differences that I hang my hat on and the reason that I tend to like telling stories for young people. That makes sense. And in your podcast, Grimm Grimm or Grimmist, you share stories of the brothers Grimm. And we say again, what was the German word that you use for household tales? Merchen. Merchen? So you say Merchen if you're from the north of Germany, in the south of Germany you say Merchen, but Merchen. Can you tell us about them and some of their stories that we may be familiar with? Yeah. So everybody knows like seven Grimm fairy tales, like little red riding hood, snow white, sleeping beauty, Hansel and Gretel, Rapunzel, Rumpel, Stiltskin. We all know those stories. Some of those stories were first written down by the brothers Grimm. Snow White. Had that, had they not written that story down? There are other kind of versions of them, but we would never know snow white if it wasn't for them. Other stories like Cinderella were already famous in other countries. That story was made famous in France, though. It's a very old story that could go back as far as Egypt or ancient China. We don't know where these stories come from, but they're sort of shared amongst peoples. And I'm going to take a little diversion just because you said you like weird and interesting facts. I'm going to tell you something weird and interesting. I don't think I've ever said this on a recording before. So here we go. You guys are getting something brand new and exciting. Very exciting. I'm excited just to tell you. I've had coffee this morning. Can you tell? I once went to a lecture at the American Museum of Natural History in New York. And it was about primate language. And so they were realizing that they had been studying groups of primates in Africa. There was a group of binobos who had certain language, sign language that they used with each other that they understood. And then they realized that this other group of binobos across the continent also used the same signs. And they started investigating that. And then they realized that there were some chimps that are not the same as binobos that also use similar signs that were the same ones. And then they went out and out and out and they realized that there are five hand signals that all primates, including humans, understand. And they showed us a video to test us. There was a video of two chimps. And one chip was eating a banana. And another chip came up and put its hand out flat, like upside down, like palm facing up. And what do you think that other chip was saying? It was like give it to me. Hand it to me. Put it hand out flat. Please give it to me. Give it to me. Yeah. It's exactly what it was saying. And there was another chip who was like, there was another video. Another video at Chimper of binobo was like doing something with some branches, like hitting a lot with some branches and making a lot of noise. And this other primate, I think, binobo came over and started making this motion with its hand, like pushing it away with its just its hand in the air, meaning go away. Like palm facing down, fingers going towards you. And we saw those and we immediately knew what those hand symbols meant. So even among different species of primates, we have a couple of shared words. And so as humans, we have stories that go back who knows how long. And Cinderella might be one of those. Anyway, that was a little diversion, but I think it's really cool that Cinderella, some version of Cinderella could go back as far as cave culture. Yeah. Anyway, what are these stories about? So you know a lot of these stories, Rampel Steltzkin, Hansel and Gretel, Little Red Riding Hood. And then there are hundreds of others that most people don't know. And some of them are fantastic. Darling Roland is a story you can sit down and read and just be like, oh my God, that was bloody and terrifying and amazing. Why didn't I know that story? There are, you know, one of the things about the German versions of the fairy tales is that they are often very bloody and scary. So Cinderella in the French version is not bloody and scary, but Cinderella in the German version has a lot of kids know to get the golden shoot of fit in the German version. It's golden. The oldest step sister is given a knife by her mother and fingers ready everybody. Please cover your ears or turn down the volume if you don't hear this. The oldest step sister cuts off her big toe to get the shoot of fit. And the youngest one cuts off a chunk of her heel, which is just the best word of the used chunk that I know. And then as they're riding away, there's blood like spurting out of the shoe. They're riding on the back of the horse of the princess horse. And he turns around, he sees this blood spurting out of the golden shoe and he's like, wait a minute. You're not the right girl because he's smart like that, right? So anyway, those are the real grim versions of the fairy tales, but all these fairy tales are incredible stories of usually young person going through weird and scary and funny events. And then coming out the other side in some way, why is there and stronger and better than they were before? I have heard the Cinderella story so many times and it never ceases to turn my stomach a little bit. Yes, the brothers grim were they had a marvelous imagination for the macabre. There's one detail that I love so much. So they edited the stories many times over the course of their lives. The first published in 1812, but they published many editions. And in the earliest edition of Sleeping Beauty, you know, you probably know in Sleeping Beauty, a prince has to like fight through this thicket of brambles to get to the tower where she's sleeping. Yeah. Well, in a later edition, one of the brothers, I believe it was, so there's Jacob and Wilhelm, a Wilhelm. And so I believe it was Wilhelm wrote in a detail that as the prince is making his way through the thicket, he keeps seeing the skeletons of other dead princes who didn't make it through the thicket. So like what? What a great detail to have invented. So that's really who the brothers grim are in a nutshell. Yeah. So as we're already speaking to a little bit, the brothers grim have some pretty wild stories. Yeah. Do kids ever surprise you with their reactions? Do kids ever not surprise me with their reactions? They always surprise me with their reactions. That's why it's so fun to record with them. That's what the joy of the podcast is. In season five, which has just come out, there is an episode where this girl goes to this creepy house and there's a creepy old lady. And this kid interrupts me and he's like, the creepy old ladies are always bad in these stories. They always do bad stuff. And I'm like, yeah, they frequently do what he says. Usually they treat the kids like soup. I'm like, what? He's like, like soup. I was like, what do you mean they treat them like soup? And he's like, would they eat them? And I was like, yes, frequently they do eat them. But it's interesting to say that they treat them like soup. And then sure enough later, the woman tries to make this girl into a stew. And I was like, buddy, you were right. You called it and he's like, what are you talking about? I was like, what do you mean? What do you, you said he was a treat her like soup. And he was like, yeah, I just meant like, like try to be mean to her. And I was like, no, but literally she never mind it. Anyway, so the kids are always constantly amusing me, surprising me. They get to get to get him. Yeah, yeah. What is your personal favorite of the Grimster retails? Honestly, I could never choose because if I had only one favorite, then I would not keep making these stories. Every season I have a new story or two that just blows my mind. So I know many unspookable listeners are a little bit older. They're going to be teenagers. And so the last two episodes of season five of Grim Grimmer Grimst would be for you all. We rate each episode Grim Grimmer or Grimst. And these two episodes are Grimst and like perhaps the Grimst we've ever done. And they are based on a real Grim fairy tale that I'm currently in love with called Two Travelers. And I will tell you a little bit about it. But if you would like to hear everybody, you need to be ready to turn down the volume because things get a little bit scary in the story. It's about two travelers who meet on the road. And one is an optimist always looking forward to things, always think things are going to turn out well. The other is a pessimist, always prepared for the worst. And they really, they travel together, but they cannot understand each other. And they come to a forest and there's two paths for the forest. One is a two day path. And the other is a seven day path. But it's very hard to predict which path you're going to end up on. And they're in a town before they get there and the pessimist buys seven days worth of food. But the optimist says, come on, we'll definitely find the right path and only buys two days worth of food. And when they start through the forest pretty soon, they realize they're on the seven day path. And the optimist starts to starve and asks the pessimist, will you share some food with me? But the pessimist is a real jerk. And he's like, you should have been prepared. And the pessimist, the optimist is on the verge of starvation. And finally, the pessimist agrees he'll give him some food if, and this is the terrible part. So please get ready to turn down the volume. If the optimist will let the pessimist put out one of his eyes. So he does. And they keep going in a little farther along. And they still aren't out. And he desperately needs food. The optimist does. And so the pessimist puts out his other eye and gives him food. So now the optimist is blind. But when they get out of the forest, the pessimist leaves and the optimist stumbles across a gallows where there are two dead men hanging. And the dead men talk to the optimist and offer him their eyeballs, one of each. And so the optimist gets new eyeballs and can see again. And through one eye, he sees as he always did optimistically. But through the other eye, he sees pessimistically. And then there's a whole other part of the adventure. And I'm not going to give it away. But let's just say revenge may come to the pessimist for what he did. It is surreal. And it's also really weird and philosophical. It's an amazing, very cool story. I hope you all listen and find out what happens. Yeah, I'm so excited to hear what happens at the end. And I think, did you say that was a grimist? That was categorized grimist? Oh, very much so. As grimist as it gets. So maybe on the other end of the spectrum, what is one of the weirdest or funniest brothers grim stories that you've ever read? One that I love is called Little Chick. It's in season one and it's grim. And there are two kids and there's a mean old woman who wants to wait for it, turn them into soup literally. So yes, he nailed it. He was right. And they try to run away from this woman. And as they're running away, the woman sends her her son to go get them her son who she calls potato head. And potato head is running after them. And the girl he's gaining on them and the girl turns the boy. And she says, I know what we should do. I'll turn into a bush and you turn into a rose on the bush. And he's like, what? What are you talking about? We're not magic. How are you going to turn a bush? How I'm going to turn into a rose? And she's like, just do it. So they do it. And then he comes. He doesn't understand. She doesn't see where they went. He goes back. He goes back to his mom. And she's like potato head. Clearly she was a bush. And he was the rose on that bush. Go get them. And he's like, how did you even know that? She's like, go get them again. So he goes chasing them again. They go running again. And as he's getting closer, the girl turns to the boy and says, I'm going to turn into a church. And you turn into a steeple on that church. And the kid is like, what? How are you going to turn into a church? What got a weird fever dream? Are we having right now? And she's like, just do it. So he does it. So he turns into a church. She turns into the steeple in the church. I think maybe I got it reversed. Anyway, potato head comes up. See the church goes back to his mom and is like, I didn't see them. I just saw a church. And she's like, you dunder head. She was the church. And he was the steeple of the church. And he's like, what are you talking about? So the mom's like, you're going to do something. You're going to do it yourself. So she starts chasing them. And this time the girl says to the boy, you turn into a pond. And I will be a duck on that pond. And the boy is like, this is super weird, but okay. So he does it. He just somehow magically turns into a pond. And she turns into a duck. And when the woman who wants to make them into soup gets there. She knows exactly what they've done. So she starts to drink up the pond. And as she's drinking up the water, the duck swims up to her and grabs her by the nose and pulls her under. And she drowns. And then the boy and the girl turn back into a boy and a girl. And the boy is now missing a couple of toes because the woman drank him. But somehow the woman is like, must be in his body somehow. I'm not sure how that works. And the boy and the girl live happily ever after. Yeah. And they do not become soup. They did not become soup. The end. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing these some of these stories with us. It is my extreme pleasure. I would love to hear from you for the kids listening who want to tell their own spooky stories. What is your best spooky story telling tip? Yes. So when kids try to tell scary stories, they often make one mistake. They think that what makes a story truly scary is all the horrible bloody stuff that happens in the story. That is not what makes a story scary. What makes a story scary is there being a character that you care about. And bad things might happen to that character. Yeah. Right. I could tell you a scary story right now with nothing scary in it. For example, once upon a time there was a boy named me. And I was in seventh grade in class. And suddenly I really had to pee. I had to pee so badly, but I wasn't allowed to leave the classroom. And there was a test going on and the clock was moving. And I was going to I was sure I was going to pee in my pants and get sitting right next to me was the girl that I had the biggest crush on in the world. And I was like, oh my god, I'm going to pee in my pants. Okay, I'm not going to tell you the end of the story. It's not a true story. I just made it up, but already we're scared because we're like, no, nothing bad happened. But you have a character you care about. Okay. Bad things might happen to them. That's how you create a scary story. That yeah, I was scared. I was scared for you there for a minute. Thank you. Yeah, I did not worry. I was fine. I went to the bathroom. I'm glad for you and your bladder. Yeah. And finally, for kids who want to explore more age-appropriate spooky stories, where would you recommend they look? Oh, well, I mean, first of all, as these podcasts that you've just mentioned, unspookable, grim, grim, or grimaced, and what's the third one in this booktacular challenge? Dark tales. Oh, and Dark Tales, of course. Yes. Those are great places to start. And obviously, kids know a bunch of other good podcasts like Greeking Out and stuff like that of great, great scary stories. If you're ready for things that are a bit scary, like quite scary, these scary stories to tell in the dark by Alvin Schwartz, Dan Pawlachy has a new series of scary stories that pick up where Alvin Schwartz left off. His name is Dan. Poe Blachy. If you search his name and search scary stories, you will find his new books. There's our excellent. And then there are tons of, you know, you can go pick up grims, fairy tales, you know, and see, just flip around. You're going to find some weird ones and some silly ones and some pretty messed up stories. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, Adam, thank you so much for your time today. This has been a pleasure. Me too. A total pleasure for me. And listeners, thank you from all of us here at Dark Tales, Unspookable, and Grim Grimmer Grimist. And congrats on finishing the cookie, spooky countdown. Have a safe and happy Halloween. 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