The UFO Cover-Up Leads to One Secret Society — and One Final Event

The message of the impending apocalypse has been with us for a long time, but that grand vision hasn't arrived yet. If you think the apocalypse is lingering 10 years into the future, there's all sorts of things you're not going to do or bother investigating. Yeah. So it really is a huge way that you can control the behavior of an entire planet. Jason Samosa runs one of my favorite YouTube channels on UFOs. I think one of the things people really struggle with is can we be engaging with this huge phenomenon whilst also human beings may have created technology that could imitate it. There is an organization which was created initially in 1945. It's called the World Commerce Corporation. On the board, Donovan, Stephenson, Hambrose, Dulles doing the legal counsel. We've got people aristocracy on the board as well. But eventually it links to the Bahamas with Thomas Townsend Brown and that whole geographical location. How does it link with the Bahamas? Yeah, well, um... Resorts International. Are you familiar with them? No. There's this paint company called the Mary Carter Paint Company, which is then converted into this organization called Resorts International. It suddenly has a subsidiary which has a private intelligence network called Etertel, which is doing very dubious stuff. You know who becomes the controller of Resorts International in the mid-80s? Who? Donald Trump. No way! You see this sort of conflation of the deep state issue and the underground criminal networks with the UFO issue. It's shifting gears before both of us get whacked. The royal prince of Liechtenstein, Hans Adam, he believes Jesus will show up on a flying saucer. That would be a great end to it all. Yeah, I'm back. Revelation is like, it's a revelation. New information is coming in. So how we view the future, I think, is really important. the lens through which we interpret this incredibly mysterious thing is going to be pretty decisive. Today's episode is sponsored by Incogni. After speaking with a ton of scientists and high-up military personnel working on some of the most revolutionary ideas and sensitive programs of our time, I've learned how seriously they all take their personal privacy. These people aren't paranoid, they're just operating in very sensitive areas. And so they care deeply about what's searchable about them on the internet. The average person has no idea how much of their information is already out there, just sitting on the web. Incredibly sensitive information like phone numbers, home addresses, relatives' names, all sitting on sites you've never even heard of. If you're not being proactive about protecting your online information, it can easily fall into the wrong hand. That's what got me using Incogni. They go after data brokers directly and get your information actually deleted, not just buried. And they keep following up until the removal is confirmed. And you can see all of this cleanly on their user-friendly dashboard. The feature I personally find most useful is custom removals. If you find your information sitting on some random third-party website, you simply paste the link into your Incogni dashboard, and their privacy experts handle the takedown. You get unlimited submissions, so take your personal data back now with Incogni. Use code AmericanAlchemy at incogni.com slash AmericanAlchemy for 60% off an annual plan. Thank you so much to Incogni for sponsoring today's episode. I'm here with Jason Samosa, who runs one of my favorite YouTube channels on UFOs. You're incredible at explaining things, at breaking things down. Really complicated, kind of complex threads in UFOlogy. and also explaining to people, I think, where they get thrown off most when it comes to UFOs. And it's just an amazing channel. You do all these historical deep dives. And so I'm really grateful to have you, man. Thanks, Jesse. It's good to be here, man. I think people on the outside of UFOlogy assume it's all just kind of little green men coming from Zeta Reticuli or something. I think you have a much kind of deeper, more complex understanding of the topic. is that your kind of base case assumption that these are just extraterrestrial travelers? I think when it comes to that, I tend to rest on Jacques Vallée's work. You know, if you read Messengers of Deception, he talks about how the extraterrestrial hypothesis doesn't make much sense. We have so many cases of these things coming in, and they land on our planet, and they behave in unusual ways. And after a while, you begin to ask the question, well, what is it that they're trying to achieve, right? If they're coming here to do some sort of reconnaissance or some sort of investigation, why have they continued to land over and over again? And why are there so many different variations of them? So the extraterrestrial hypothesis doesn't do justice to the data. But I think one of the big issues there is most people, when they see that, they just throw it out. They say, well, if I can't rationalize that data based on the hypothesis, I think it should fit. Therefore, I'm not going to take this topic seriously. but in reality there are other layers you can go to then when you see all of these cases and that sort of strange what are they doing here you might be able to go a little deeper in terms of trying to understand it and i think that's where valet is is particularly helpful so what do you and what is jacques valet think they are doing here well i'm glad to be grouped together with that i'll tell you what the two of us have discussed yeah that's right i think uh jacques valet looks at those cases and says well what is the impact that ufos are having on society okay so we're seeing a phenomenon and we're seeing the data of that becoming kind of indisputable however strange it might be uh it's possible that the objectives of that phenomenon may be something more subtle and so what he does is he looks at the the cultural impact of ufos over time and what impact does that have on human belief systems and therefore what can we assume the motivations might be of the beings that operate this thing and by the way it may well be and i think he said this recently in the uh the james fox thing that he did we may be engaging with an artificial intelligence which in turn has been created by a non-human intelligence from another planet the current segmentation of the data hinders any serious research into what appears to be an extraterrestrial phenomenon empowered by advanced artificial intelligence. So it could be the case that there's sort of layers to this as well. But what impact is this huge, vast system having? Because obviously there's been a huge investment to create this thing which continually reappears and does all these things. So what do the motivations be? And I think that's the angle that goes down. Yeah, so it's like humans and human belief systems are the end product. They're not like some incidental result of another thing that's going on. The intended effect is actually to create mythology in some ways. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and he talks about how symbols and mythology may exist at a level that's kind of a level down from our normal discourse and that those changes can be quite profound over time. So, yes, it could be that a slow shift in how we perceive ourselves and the world around us could be the intention. Yeah. So then you have to view that mythology that gets created through kind of a suspicious hermeneutic. You have to say, okay, you know, if we start to talk about environmental destruction and nuclear war and all these things, maybe taking those things at face value isn't the best idea. I mean, maybe they are to be taken at face value. Maybe these beings are coming from another planet and they're saying you're destroying yourself, you're on the eve of the apocalypse or whatever. and then maybe there's some intended effect that, you know, maybe that's, they know that that narrative is charismatic and so they'll give it to us, but they're actually sort of, you know, messengers of deception. Yes, exactly, yeah. Yeah, I think that's a big thing. The message of the impending apocalypse has been with us for a long time. Like if you read the Old Testament prophets, so much of it is the doom and gloom of what's about to come. and you know in many ways we experience that in some form throughout history but that grand vision hasn't arrived yet um and it's it's this is one of the huge challenges and i think this is why this idea of deception is so important is how am i supposed to delineate between what this phenomenon is trying to generate in terms of our human culture and what we're trying to achieve potentially in response to it because when you get to this point where we're questioning whether or not our beliefs and our thoughts are our own, you kind of collapse into this solipsism, you know, and it doesn't become very helpful. Or radical Cartesian doubt. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Like, how am I supposed to figure out what I'm supposed to be thinking? Yes. Right. It's a little bit too deep. So I don't know what the answers are there in terms of what the phenomenon is trying to achieve. But I think certainly the everything we encounter as an extraterrestrial being and every single experience should be taken at face value is maybe too simplistic an approach. because on balance it appears to be very deceptive. And, yeah, apocalyptic, I believe there's a, what's that, it's like when prophecy fails was this, like, you know, in the 50s, there was this cult created in Ohio. And cult creation seems to be this thing in UFOlogy where, like, you have this one kind of contactee, you know, and around that person is created this sort of mythology and you end up with, you know, often there's a prophecy involved and something's going to happen in, like, the next few years or something. Do you think that is kind of a core product of ufology and UFO contact? Whether, you know, going back to, like, you know, Adamski and people like that, you know, some of the early contactees in the U.S. Yeah, I mean, whether it's the intention of the phenomenon or not to create those cults, they do appear. and you know this is one of these things where belief systems can spawn quite extreme outcomes because you know if a group of us are experiencing something that feels truly phenomenal and no one on the outside can even interact with that on an experiential level our ability to have coherent dialogue with the outside world completely collapses and so what happens is you get this little bubble of experience which just begins to go off on its own completely you know separate from the world. So I think that does happen. There is a part that, you know, Valet talks about in Message of Deception where he talks about how if suddenly there was a mass appearance of UFOs in the world, so let's say some sort of event, those cults could suddenly blossom whilst trust in the government collapses. And that's one of the fears that he's got. He suggests that actually we need to be very aware that the current status quo of what's going on on the planet could suddenly change overnight in a mass appearance event. And, you know, that could be very concerning. Yeah, and I think it's concerning for governments as well, like Jolly West, do you know who that is? He was one of the architects of MKUltra, and he was the head of UCLA Psychiatry, out in LA actually. And, you know, now there are all these theories that he might have brainwashed Charles Manson, really crazy. But his whole thing was he was really interested in cult creation and Philip Zimbardo at Stanford with the Stanford Prison Experiments, like all very similar. A lot of the psychology that was probably state-funded at the time, it was extremely interested in the creation of cults because, as you're saying, those are kind of inherently subversive organizations. And so, yeah, it's interesting to think of ufology through that lens. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and some of these cults seem to be very apocalyptic. That seems to be like a part of their whole thing. Like, you know, the end times are here, living in, you know, the book of Revelations or something. It's interesting how that's kind of gone beyond just cults now into our mainstream as well, right? You know, we've moved to a point where this idea of the apocalypse, it's kind of just part of how we see the world. You know, is that a progression from the cults or the phenomenon over time? It creates a sense of desperation and urgency around people which could be manipulated, you know. Yeah, yeah. I'd like to say, if you know that your mom's about to cook dinner, if she tells you that dinner's going to be ready in one hour, you're much less likely to go to the fridge. Right. Right? Sure. So if you think the apocalypse is lingering, I don't know, 10 years into the future, there's all sorts of things you're not going to do or bother investigating. Yes. So it really is a huge way that you can control the behavior of an entire planet is if they all become convinced that we're pretty much at the end of things. Yeah. Or even if that's lingering in the subconscious. Yeah, it could be totally used as a way to kind of pacify people. What do you think, I guess, because a lot of what you cover also are these kind of analytical overlays imposed on the UFO question by, you know, various groups. And so one would be the extraterrestrial thing. Another thing would be angels and demons and the whole, you know, kind of Judeo-Christian overlay. You want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I think this is super important. A lot of people are trying to grapple with what the phenomenon is. And so we go from the extraterrestrial hypothesis and we begin to see it doesn't make a lot of sense of what we're seeing. But you can move over and you can start to consider it to be demonic, right? And there is a correlation between occult activity and the phenomenon. That's demonstrable and, you know, Valais demonstrated that and Peter Levander. There are so many examples of this. So it is compelling to ask the question, maybe the extraterrestrial, the demon, the angel, all of these different things are sort of a consistent experience of the same phenomenon underneath. And I think that that's very compelling. What can happen there is you can quickly begin to move over and say, well, wait a second. The Bible said a whole bunch of really interesting things about these beings. You know, for example, that there are these fallen angels that become these demons and that they're deceptive. and that there's this huge end times deception which is designed to trick humanity into moving away from god and signs of belief some sort of false doctrine and a lot of people look at the phenomenon they say it's not extraterrestrial and it is deceptive and it correlates with the occult and so what happens is very quickly we snap into this idea that this could be validating the bible there's a problem here which is kind of circular reasoning you're using this sort of i think relatively useful interpretation of the phenomenon to go back to the Bible and say, wait a minute, maybe we should give this book a second look. But actually underneath there, you're also using the Bible to create the argument in the first place. And so a lot of this comes down to whether or not we take the Bible to be a source of authority on how we interpret things or whether or not we actually focus on the science of the phenomenon. And I think it's interesting to look through the community. I mean, I recently made a video on the Collins elite, right? I explored this topic in depth. and I was trying my best to steel man the argument that UFOs could be demons because I thought it's interesting and it's good to build that picture inadvertently in the comments there's so many people saying I knew the bible was right all of this stuff and I'm just like no that's not what I was trying to say but so quickly people get funneled down there and it can lead to quite extreme outcomes because the moment the bible becomes your epistemological foundation your ability to look at all the other data shuts down and I think it's a big issue that we have to grapple with as things accelerate who are the collins elite gosh i wish i could tell you with complete confidence who they are um you know one of the interesting things i've learned is that i think people on the inside talk about the collins elite they've been talking about them for a while whether it's you know jack ballet or george knapp or whoever when they use that word i think they're often referring to multiple things so first and foremost you've got fantastic book by nick redford final events where he talks about this program called we don't know the real name but it's known as the collins elite was founded in uh well it traces back to right after the roswell crash they're trying to understand what this phenomenon is and if you read um rupelt's book on uh you know the unexplained stuff that was going on then he talks through how they go through all these hypotheses it's like is it human could it be russian could it somehow be nazi technology and then there's this extraterrestrial hypothesis what this collins elite thing reveals is there was also a conversation about whether it could be uh overlaid with the occult what was being experienced so that eventually leads to a funded program according to nick redfern sources and he met with a bunch of people who validated other sources he had and that was uh 1952 through the directorate of plans um in the cia i think they unlocked funding and basically about 12 people were employed to look into this full time So you have a funded program, which I don't think special access programs were a thing then by that terminology, but it sounds like that because Directorate of Plans funding is associated with Mockingbird, Gladio, all these like really covert operations. So you've got that program investigating the correlation between UFOs and the occult. You've also got other components. So if you read Valet's journals, he points out Alonzo McDonald as being uniquely involved in this. and I'm looking at Alonzo McDonald, who I know you had your discussion with the two Erics recently, right, where he came up. Alonzo McDonald was the staff director for Jimmy Carter. And if you look at him, he was, I think he was CEO of McKinsey, right, consulting firm. So I'm like, Alonzo McDonald isn't going to be invited into a very, very sensitive program exploring the relationship between UFOs and the occult. Could be completely wrong, but it just doesn't seem like that would be the case. So, I began to look into that and ask the question, well, what's going on? And if you look into this organization called The Family, The Fellowship, they were founded in the 30s and really took off in the post-war era. They basically created this invisible network of sort of Protestant Christians throughout government. And there's a wonderful book by a guy called Jeff Charlotte or Chartlet. It's a brilliant book where he basically explores this and identifies key members of the family. Alonzo McDonald is one of them. That network has many people who've been involved in sort of UFO adjacent stuff. So when you go into the Reagan administration, you've got James Baker, who's then his staff director. James Baker is also a member of the family. So, you know, the Democrats lose, the Republicans win, but you have a consistent presence of the family right at the nexus of power in the executive branch. and James Baker is also a member of the family and he's involved in a UFO briefing according to Nick Redfern. So he's invited into a briefing that Reagan gets where a bunch of people come in, one's from CIA, S&T, which is presumably Kit Green and his people. You've got the Collins elite who come in and then there's another group who do a briefing as well. Alonzo McDonald, James Baker, both sat in or had direct information about the UFO topic within the context of the White House. So it raises the question, this network of people, how big is it and what do they know? And sometimes if someone is trying to shut down activity in the government related to UFO investigations, because they claim that it's demonic and you shouldn't be looking into this, don't just assume that it's that 1952 program, which has become known as the Collins Elite. It may well be that it's the family, which also sometimes I think fly under the same moniker. and those are just two components out of three so just to get us started yeah it's fascinating yeah this guy doug co was the one of the leaders of the family in the 80s and he would hold this prayer breakfast yeah and all the presidents would have to attend the prayer breakfast and you know it almost felt like at the prayer breakfast doug had more status than the presidents or something um so super fascinating what it's funny when i hear you know people talking about aliens as angels or demons, I have like two reactions. One is, you know, if sometimes you'll hear like, you know, Sean Ryan and Tucker Carlson, and like, we think it's spiritual, we think it's demonic. And I say, well, what does that mean? What are you like, you're just saying, you're just saying an angel or a demon? What is an angel or a demon? Like you do have these, you know, angel hierarchies and taxonomies from St. Thomas Aquinas and, you know, people historically, but that doesn't, That just has like a big, you know, kind of a lot of baggage attached to it. It has a connotation attached to it. But what does that actually mean would be my kind of challenge to those people. And then I would have a kind of equal and opposite challenge to the people who say that angels and demons definitely have nothing to do with the conversation. Yes. And the challenge there would be like there's probably something, you know, the concept of Lindy, like which is, you know, So how long an idea has survived is basically its kind of value to society, and it also determines its expected future age. And so Plato and the Bible are probably more valuable than, like, I don't know, the Pet Shop Boys or something, you know, some, like, random contemporary thing that's not that old. And so, you know, you're seeing a thing, you know, angels and demons have existed for thousands of years, you know they are these sort of you know they play tricks on you or whatever they smell like sulfur like there are all these different like attributes of them and some of the attributes seem to match up with some of these things like you talk to Jacques Vallée he'll be like yeah like you you want to get rid of this thing if you know you if you're you know a constant experiencer or an abductee or whatever and he often talks about fallen angels himself yeah so So I think there's this kind of two-pronged, like, wait, like, you can't just end the conversation on angels and demons for those people. And then they're like the, you know, super secular people who just want to, like, entirely throw that out. And I'm like, wait, that seems like an important possible overlay. Yeah, I think the key thing here is, you know, we need to look at all the experiences from history. The moment you realize this phenomenon's real, the next question is how long has it been going on? Yeah. And then it turns out our entire history, all our mythology is mentioning references to these beings. We need to take this seriously. from all religions, right, from all of these documented experiences. The pitfall comes when we cease to look at these experiences as like, okay, these people believe this, they had this experience, they documented it, we can take it relatively seriously, to these 66 books describe exactly what's going to happen in the future, and none of the other holy texts out there do. And that's the lockdown where you either remain open to the data or you get locked in. And I think one of the issues we have is terminology, unfortunately, angels, demons. these are i guess the judeo-christian thing is out of fashion now but they're judeo-christian terms and it may well be helpful for us to consider whether we try and rename those well i think it would be fascinating to somehow find some common joseph campbell style underpinning between the religions where there's always some consciousness chain between man and god yes and so you have the devas, you know, in Hinduism you have, you know, the jinn and Islam. Like, it's almost the exception to the rule to find a religion where there isn't consciousness between man and God. And so what normalizes between, you know, the descriptions of all of these beings across all these religions, I think would be a worthy inquiry. 100%. Yeah, you could even just go back to angel evangelion, which is just messenger right and that function of a messenger going out from this place to human beings with a message is exactly what what these these phenomenon tend to try and represent anyway so there's useful terms you can connect very quickly with the challenge we have is the moment you start to use those christian terms again people's ability to think clearly just switches off yeah all people but you know it can happen well then you could just say it's like it's it's these things are mythologies, and Christianity is a mythology, just like some of these other mythologies. But then Christianity, for whatever reason, seems to have this charismatic, very helpful effect for more people. It's scaled better than a lot of these other things. And then you have to ask why, and I don't know. You know, this is so interesting. I remember when I was losing my faith, and I had to go and answer questions to the people who'd been teaching me about the world of Christianity. Yeah, because let's back up for a second. You have a very interesting just origin story. Do you want to tell that to people and then get into this? It's a great day for me. I finally have an origin story. I feel amazing. Yeah, I mean, I became a Christian at the age of 19, kind of out of nowhere. I mean, all the people who knew me growing up would never have imagined it would have happened. But it began to fall in place for a variety of personal reasons. You know, the way I was seeing the world was a very dark place where there's a lot of problems kind of like an eschatological stage for the bible to step onto you know i began to see the world that way and i was looking for spirituality and unfortunately i looked at you know various other pathways you know sort of buddhist and eastern spirituality is pretty cool for someone of my age at that point and i looked down those avenues and unfortunately every time i did there was always a price associated with you know learning that information so it kind of turned me off but it doesn't mean that those things don't have value it's just in that moment but eventually i became quite despondent i prayed i said you know look whoever you are mysterious cosmic force help me because i can't seem to find the truth two weeks later i watched a video about the bible and you know despite wanting to treat it with scorn i found myself enlightened by it very much like you're saying right there's this charismatic effect that comes out of the bible and it is incredibly beautiful and particularly the sermon on the mount you know i i read that and i found some of the things that jesus was saying were so profound and it's not even like the word profound makes it sound like i discovered some esoteric mystery what was so wonderful about it is it was actually just common sense in terms of how you view people and their behavior and you know what does it really mean to be good or to be evil um he sort of cuts through the conversation in a fresh way and uh all the eschatological stuff that came with it about this deception the end times because of the way i was thinking at the time i was like that makes sense this seems beautiful i met christians who are wonderful people and i snapped in you know after a while you stop trying to rationalize whether you are going to believe and you start getting on with it and as i did i found it to be a you know an amazing experience um i was so invested in it i was training to become a preacher uh for for many years and that was going full throttle until i was about to go and get full theological training and for a church like the one I was in the money involved in that is it's a lot of money and a very wise man called Viv Witten I can see him in my mind's eye he was a wonderful guy and he said you know you should actually just pause here take a year go get a normal job I'm 25 all I've ever done at this point is like be in this environment every single day of my life constantly so I went and got a job in a call center which was a real shock to the system it really was you know like I was up in one of the most deprived towns in England in this call center, meeting the most wonderful people. But I just spent three years studying theology, philosophy, and, you know, being in a Christian bubble. It was really weird. And I just began to lose the grip of what I thought I'd believed. And I spent a lot of time digging in and trying to figure out, can I really prove this to be true? You know, I believe Jesus rose from the dead, but I'm beginning to doubt that. How do I prove that? Because I need a bedrock here, an epistemological foundation, so that next time these doubts come, I can just deal with them. Because it was pretty shocking suddenly wondering whether I was going to continue. My whole life was in this space. And eventually, no matter how far I went in terms of proving the genuine historicity of large chunks of the Bible, knowing the incredible moral value it had brought to my life, I couldn't prove that I was in communication with God that the Bible was literally inspired by God or that Jesus had risen from the dead I believe there's a mystery there about what happened with Jesus I think he was a astonishing individual and that kind of gets back to what I was going to say a moment ago which is that I realized of all the millions of amazing pieces of literature that have been written in our in our human history surely one of them's got to be the best and you know it may well be that at the very top of that stack you've got you know the platos and the gospels and you know these books that just you know you you read the original dialogues with socrates you get a somewhat similar feeling that you get from some of the gospels when he talks about how wisdom starts with recognizing that you know nothing you know that's it there's something there there's you can see some of it in confucius you can see it in the gospels it's it's all kind of popping up at the same time in human history and it's all beautiful and impactful so i kind of reached a point where that was that and uh later on entering ufo world i found all of that to be very useful background but now especially as things are accelerating with the discussion you know people are talking about ufos more than they ever have i don't know if you know this but the ufo subreddit in 2017 when the new york times article came out it had 70 000 people on it after that article now it's 2026 there are four million people on that subreddit whoa it's wild okay so i always say to people it doesn't matter whether you believe this stuff or not there's a wave coming of people having to engage with this because it's kind of like the cult thing right there's a subculture bubbling up here and people are beginning to engage with it and they don't have the answers or clarity they need we do have these old religious frameworks and what if we end up using those and kind of trapping ourselves in a framework about how we view it instead of letting us see whatever this unbelievable thing is yeah yeah but then the meta view also is like if you have this almost like social contagion around the thing you almost have to be skeptical of that as well exactly and like realize that quote-unquote disclosure is just a personal process it's just something that an individual goes through themselves it's not some line in the sand like it's actually some sort of seeding of one's uh own spiritual authority to some other group to say that they can give you a bunch of documents and then that somehow provides meaning for you. Like, what is it? Who cares? And on some level, I want it to happen because I think it'll move the Overton window and you'll have young people able to ask these questions. These things can be taught in academic settings. All of those things would be amazing second-order effects of Trump releasing documents. But the idea that that's somehow going to give somebody meaning in their life is insane. Yeah. And that's sort of like some people's orientation towards the thing. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, there's this fixation on the information we don't have and the injustice that we haven't received it. So we've become convinced that as long as I can get that information out, everything's going to be solved. It's so funny. And it's so funny to see like some government official who clearly doesn't even think about UFOs will make some offhand remark about some, you know, a hybrid breeding program or, like, a certain base where they saw a thing, and you'll see somebody on Twitter, and they're like, is this disclosed? Did we just get it? It's like, are you following sports? Like, what are you doing? Like, who cares? Dude, that person doesn't know anything. They're doing the thing because of their own cynical, you know, motivation, and they want to distract from a thing, or it's opportunistic, or whatever. So just, you know, again, I think there are second-order kind of knock-on effects that are positive. Yeah. And so maybe you should view it through that lens. But if you're like really pumped about it personally, like maybe you should think twice or something. You know, it's like, who cares? Yeah. It brings me back to Tom DeLonge when he met Neil McCasland. And after that initial phone call, I think Neil McCasland had said, you know, I'm worried that you might find a group of people stumbling around an elephant. Right. So they're feeling out like I think it's... Lion men touching different parts of an elephant. Exactly. Yeah. They think it's all different things because no one even has the full picture. Yeah. So it might well be that even if we got full disclosure, we're going to be deeply unsatisfied with the information that we receive. Yeah, I think that's right. And yeah, exactly. There's nothing to disclose because the government, they might have an asymmetric data set, but they don't have some monopoly on how the world works or metaphysics or something. you just mentioned two very interesting names that we should give you know maybe a broader audience who's not mired in ufo world a little context on neil mccasland uh is a general who ran the lab where the roswell wreckage was rumored to have been taken at wright patterson and he ran the the air force research laboratory and then tom de long is the blink 182 front man who would have thought those two things would go together how did they come together what give me give us the context oh man yeah this is the whole story that that got me like into this in a big way uh because it sounds preposterous and every time i try and you know recently one of my best friends he's getting into this topic and he's like i've got this long drive coming up can you suggest some podcasts and i was like you gotta listen to the tom de long thing and he's you know i can tell in his mind he's like what are you on about seriously but the story is is kind of unbelievable i mean And essentially, DeLong, I think, had become deeply interested in this from a very young age. There's video footage of him talking about this. You know, you're kind of wondering if he's even started Blink-182 at this point. So he was fascinated. And at some point in 2013, he started to build this kind of project about how he would integrate music, media, and try and use it to communicate bigger stuff. I think it's a natural consequence of being in a band for so long and wanting to find better meaning and being interested in a topic. At some point, he began to make connections and meet people, you know, and I think that actually happened relatively early. Neil McCasland and the people that come later, that's 2015, 2016. But Peter Levender, who's someone who worked closely with DeLong, he said by the time he joined, which was November 2014, there were already 10 advisors. So DeLong already had accumulated a group of people who were advising him on stuff anyway before this group of people that we tend to focus on. how it happened um it's it's a question of whether you believe the stories that that came out about it or not but ballet jacques ballet validates the original original story which is that de long had made contact with someone who worked at lockheed martin skunk works and that individual had said look would you come and sort of be the mc for this special day we're having where it's like a big family event and he said yes as long as i can speak to the individual who who runs the show right and get a chance to sit down and i think delon i come from a sales background as well as a religious one which arguably could be said to be the same thing um but he's uh he's one of the best sales people you'll ever come across because what he did is he took his unbelievable fascination in the ufo topic and he clearly had asked the question what is it that these people really want right delon could have gone in there and said i want the answers and become adversarial and try to squeeze it out. But I think he was very aware that not all people who work in the government are fundamentally evil. There are lots of people who are moms and dads who find themselves working for these aerospace companies who may be dealing with really complicated stuff and are busy trying to achieve those objectives. And meanwhile, people's perception of them is plummeting because they're unable to communicate clearly about what's going on i think that's a real situation so he went in there and basically said look um how can we help communicate things in a way that doesn't touch on classified data helps people understand some of the big concepts around this stuff and i think they were uneasy at first but then he sent this individual um a piece of content that the vendor had written and it was all around cargo cults and the idea being that there were these uh gosh i didn't know geographically where this happened but there was some sort of tribe in a remote area in french polynesia french polynesia there you go and they could see these planes landing and uh you know dropping off all this cargo and like stuff food resources um and there was this kind of you know flight tower and all these lights and everything and in their mind their response was like if we can replicate what we're seeing so we make the tower out of trees and you know put these lights here maybe we'll also get the thing to land and that happened that's documented which is hugely interesting in terms of you know how we perceive many things that were constructed a long time ago and how we might perceive the origins of our various religious establishments so that suddenly got these people interested they were like oh you have a much more sophisticated view on this than the government hiding aliens You trying to understand the history of human engagement with potentially a phenomena which has been here for a long time. A bunch of meetings start. So he's flown out to the Pentagon where he meets with someone and they say, okay, now you're going to NASA, where he meets with some people. I think arguably you could say maybe Pete Warden, who's a one-star NASA general, may have been there. And there's someone else as well who I forget their name. But then eventually it leads out towards this area, sort of California. He's meeting with, I think, General Mike Carey was one of the individuals who eventually introduced him to General William Neal McCasland. So by this point, he's accrued multiple advisors. What happens is at this time, he's giving all these podcasts. The first time I heard these podcasts, I was like, there's no way this could be true. he was saying i have met the people who are managing the ufo thing they started to speak to me the front man from blink 182 and they're telling me all of these things like any until he's really excited but he's also a little bit nervous and it's really interesting because it's one of these things where you listen to it and on paper it doesn't make any sense no rational person would believe that can happen but his enthusiasm was really hard to ignore you know there's an intuition you can have listening to someone where you think well maybe you're just deluded but you definitely believe this anyway fast forward to the 2016 elections and you know if you look back at it now and i've documented this as thoroughly as i can podesta and clinton were talking a lot about ufos and people say like you know oh they were just talking about it because they were trying to get votes and it's like are you kidding me there's a guy called dennis kucinich who was in a 2010 election i think uh the moment his name became associated with ufos this was a former a Democratic candidate for the presidency. In a debate stage, he was pretty much laughed off stage and his candidacy plummeted. So it had been proven in Democratic circles. Associating yourself with the UFO topic is not a good thing. So Clinton and Podesta are talking about UFOs, which is very strange. Podesta's emails get hacked, obviously, and in those emails you find a correspondence. I think there were 35 emails back and forth between Tom DeLonge and Podesta's team. there's that meeting where you've got General Neil McCasland and Michael Kerry and Robert Weiss, the president of the Skunk Works, along with Podesta and along And Podesta is Clinton's chief of staff That's right, yeah, so he's running that and along with that there's a really interesting moment in the emails where one of the staffers, this is also interesting because the staffers seem to understand there's a UFO conversation going on. A lot of these people are connected to the Center for American Progress which is Podesta's sort of big liberal think tank in D.C. And at one point, there's an individual mentioned, and one of the staffers said, John, maybe we should consider this individual for the UFO project. And you're like, okay, so obviously this staffer and all the other people on the email, including Podesta, and this is mid-2015, I think, already have a UFO project? We're, like, far away from the election at this point. and uh anyway it turns out tom's along's been in there connecting with podesta with all these people these conversations really were going on which was then further validated by jack valet someone who has huge questions about that whole thing by the way he's a big skepticism about what they were trying to achieve you read his journals it absolutely did happen yeah what what do you think they were trying to achieve because i think the for me i know there's a there there underneath the ufo question like i know there's something worthy of inquiry scientifically there and then i think the meta sociological question that a lot of people who are mired in ufos right now don't tend to ask is why have we seen this just ridiculous resurgence in popularity why is the subreddit of ufos grown from a few hundred thousand to you know four million uh over the course of 10 years and is that being pushed is there some sort of engineered on high ufo disclosure thing happening right now and and and what would be the motivation for that because you said you know you're like it could this guy be the guy for the ufo project and by the way i have personally very little doubt of uh tom de long's sincerity and his intelligence and actually a long interest and his standing interest organically in the topic. And I think he kind of vigilante, like, you know, made a lot of this stuff happen. But it also seems like there's a confluence between that organic interest on his part and then, like, people in the government wanting to do something on UFOs. Do you think that was just, this stuff has been, you know, we've had this low-energy Cold War orientation towards this thing. We've kept it secret for too long. People deserve to know. Or do you think it was a little more cynical than that? Do you have a take there? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I really do. I think in terms of the timing, Jacques Vallée's most recent journals are very interesting. I was digging into DeLong as my first foyer into this topic in a serious way because I was like, if I can prove that this is legitimate, then I can sit on top of this and say there seems to be a there there. And I'd always been trying to figure out when did the thing really start? Where did this come from? You get to Vallée's most recent journals. he documents early in 2013 rumors coming out of the White House and these rumors are essentially saying they're planning to do something called confirmation not disclosure so there's some sort of distinction there in terms of like we're not going to go all the way with trying to reveal all the awful things but we want to get some information out there and you know what's interesting about the timing of that is simultaneously as these rumors start to appear in the journals Valet and his colleagues are talking about this idea that there might be something coming, that there's something on its way and that it could potentially be concerning or harmful. There's this urgency. And these are the ORSAP scientists, by the way. So these are people who worked in the government on a big program that was funded through DIA using Bigelow Aerospace, investigating the phenomenon. And the ORSAP program looked at 260,000 different cases with seven levels of analysis. This is probably the biggest study of UFO data ever. And one of the conclusions that Valet hints at two or three times in the journals is that, you know, an existential threat may have been detected. And what that is, he doesn't go any deeper into it. I don't know if it's because he doesn't want to or he can't. And it doesn't mean we have to believe that, by the way, but, you know, it's very interesting that Valet, who is I think generally quite skeptical about, you know, the modern disclosure movement, which has involved claims that something's coming, releases his journals in a way that validates this. And he would have had time to remove that if he changed his mind about all of that. So in terms of that, I think there is some urgency, whatever that is. I made a whole video about 20 different explanations it could be. But that then leads to the Obama administration basically saying, look, we need to try and get information out in some degree. I think those two things could be connected. but I think DeLong was already in the orbit of those conversations because he'd been on coast to coast with George Knapp 2011 and he's one of the biggest celebrities they'd had on there who was talking about doing things for disclosure. He's in that orbit the Orsap scientists received these rumors about stuff coming out of the White House and then you've got George Knapp who's in that orbit who's connected to DeLong. I don't think it's out of the question. He may have heard like now's a pretty good time for the project you're doing like 2013 kind of time. So I think there's a genuine reason, there's all of this with DeLong maybe already knowing and that driving him to be quite so ambitious as he was. But I also think there's another dynamic here which funnily enough connects back to the Collins elite thing, which is that there have been presidents who have been on the inside of the UFO information, at least it seems that way. The research I've done recently, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, all seem to have received briefings. The moment you get to Clinton, I think it's pretty demonstrable. He didn't. And he had to fight to try and get information. And he used all of his resources and still couldn't get what he wanted. And, you know, I wonder whether Obama may have had a somewhat similar experience. I don't know. But, you know, Ross Coulthard recently came out and talked about how there sometimes seems to be a contrast between Republican presidents getting information and Democrat presidents not. we don't have to take everything Ross Coulthard says as gospel, right? But it's an interesting thought experiment. Why might that be the case? Why is it that the UFO data may be dangerous in the hands of people who are outsiders? Okay, so Clinton and Obama coming into office really weren't connected to the establishment of the United States. They really were, in many ways, outsiders who'd started to move inside. You know, Clinton attended a Bilderberg meeting once before he was elected, so that's fine. But that's very different to Reagan, to Nixon, and to all of these – the Bush family. I don't know. I think of Nixon as kind of an outsider. Really? Yeah, from Whittier, California. He had a chip on his shoulder, wanted to do force reduction in the CIA, who was always against him. Really? And was ousted, I think, in a very artificial way. Oh, that's interesting. By Reagan, I could see a little bit more. George H.W. Bush, for sure, insider. No doubt about that. The Clinton thing is really interesting because he was interested in UFOs, I believe, and I think he spoke with Ron Pandolfi, who is a very interesting guy, who I think had the CIA's weird desk, and Ron Pandolfi told Clinton he should get briefed by a guy named Bruce McAbee, who had written a book about UFOs and the FBI. He was a longtime civilian researcher, and so what's interesting about that dynamic is you're getting a guy in the open source, world to brief a president on UFOs, which is very strange. Yeah, it is very strange. Yeah, that's one of the most, I mean, it was one of the reasons I ended up looking into Pandolfi in a big way, was I was mystified by the President of the United States is trying to get UFO information. I mean, if you really look at the Clinton story, he really is. Yeah. Like, he uses all of his different people, every angle to go and investigate this. And Lawrence Rockefeller is very close with the Clintons and trying to get them to do disclosure, get them more interested constantly. And yeah, that was a thing. Huge initiative there. And most people don't even realize that this is like history. You know, it's documented. There's a photo of Hillary Clinton. And I think she's at Camp David and she's holding a book. And it's a book by University of Arizona physicist Paul Davies. And the book is titled Are We Alone? Yeah. Clearly exploring this stuff. Yeah. She was interested early, I think. And there's evidence during the original Clinton administration she might have been trying to open doors as well uh but in terms of the pandolfi thing essentially clinton's science advisor is trying to get a briefing and what happens is that goes to the place in the cia where there is ufo information it's called the weird desk it's uh it's a colloquial term for a function which has moved around many times and uh at that point a guy called dr ronald pandolfi was was running the weird desk and um so bruce mccabe relates the story like you said he's this navy physicist incredibly bright guy who's obviously done phenomenal research and he gets a call from pendulphy basically saying look i need you to go in and give give the lecture you gave to the cia once i want you to give it to the science advisor and he's like uh well i need time to prepare and make sure i've got all this and he's like thinking maybe i've got two weeks to get everything together he's like it's tomorrow eight in the morning and so clinton's science advisor doesn't even get the CIA guy on UFOs to come in. He sends not even one of his lower people, a civilian researcher in, with almost no time to prepare. And there's a guy called William Napal, who I think had closer interactions with Pandolfi at this time. And he suggested that, you know, really they just wanted to push this away. They didn't want to have to confront what was going on with Clinton. To me, I see a pattern there, which is the former few administrations had been actually stuffed full of quite religious people. Some of these Collins elite types figures, we talked about the family. There's also the Knights of Malta. And they're connected to a broader establishment that goes back to the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services in World War II. There's a thread through all of those administrations of a similar milieu of people. You've got Clinton. Comes in, he's just this guy. And he wants the information. It's shut down. My Dr. Pendolfi, who, by the way, his uncle, Louis Pendolfi, was a founding member of the OSS. Really? Well, according to Jack Sarfati, so take the information as you please. But there was an interview with Danny Jones where he kind of goes off on talking about Pandolfi in detail, and that was, yeah, it's very interesting. So anyway, that fascinated me because if there's an individual who can basically say no to the president, who is he? And, you know, he appears everywhere in UFO law, and he's an interesting guy. It's fascinating, yeah. And then you have Obama, and who knows to what extent Obama was actually briefed on the subject, but he seems interested. I mean, he's producing this Betty and Barney Hill documentary. He, you know, it seems like he's slow dripping out information about UFOs and testing the waters, where I think on James Corden he goes, there are things in our sky that, you know, we can't identify, and we don't know what they are. And then, you know, this recent podcast, he sort of provoked Trump in many ways and said, you know, it's not like they're, you know, aliens are real. But like, how do you know that, sir? You know, the interviewer never followed up on that. But he said they are real, which, again, I don't know what he's going off of there. And then he goes on to talk about, you know, Area 51 and how that, you know, that's a myth. The idea that we have them like, you know, chained up in the basement or whatever. What's so interesting about that is Clinton said exactly the same thing. What a weird thing to zero in on. They both said, yeah, there's nothing underground under Area 51. It's like, if I'm asked about UFOs, there's a thousand things I could mention in the 30-second snippet I'm going to give you. Why? Thou doth protest too much. Yeah, it's a little strange. And then afterwards, it was so clearly this litmus test. It was like this, like, let's see how the public reacts. because he then walked it back and was like, you know, really, you know, I don't know anything you don't know. You know, I just think that it was like, you know, some Fermi paradox thing, given the amount of, you know, solar systems, you know, there's the likelihood or whatever. And that to me spells the fact that like he phrased it the way he did deliberately to begin with. The whole thing was staged with this very friendly, you know, very left wing interviewer who loved Obama. So, and it was this rapid fire questioning thing, and the guy just, like, moved on after that. All those questions are always planned. Totally. Yeah, yeah. So, like, what, and then, by the way, Obama's CIA director, you know, Brennan, and his director of national intelligence, James Clapper, are showing up in a movie. And they are tacitly endorsing the idea that not only have we, you know, are UFOs real, but we've had tracking programs at Area 51, which James Clapper personally talked about. helped set up and then are tacitly endorsing the idea that we've had a legacy program doing crash retrieval operations and, you know, reverse engineering for decades, multi-generational. Yeah. So, yeah. Do you think maybe Obama knows a thing or two about this? Did you see the John Greenwald thing where he filed a FOIA and he got information back which indicated, I can't remember if it's 3,000 or 30, I think it might have been 30,000 references in Obama's documents in his presidency to like UFOs, UAP, ORSAP, ATIP, et cetera, like all those things. So, you know, if you count that in a video I did, I tried to figure out how many references you'd need every day of his administration to make that number. I mean, it seems as though there was a dialogue going on based on those figures. And then you also have Podesta and Clinton working in the administration at different points. And then like Valet says, whispers coming out of the White House. So what we see with Hillary Clinton and John Podesta in 2016, their weird behavior, absolutely must track back to his Oval Office and his administration. This brings up some really important questions around what exists as far as UFO programs, because the things that are talked about openly at this point are in that 2017 New York Times article. They're what Obama was, you know, talking about and investigating. It's what Harry Reid set up from 2007 to 2012. which then turned into sort of this A-Tip overhang program, which seemed a lot slimmer and clear what was going on there. But those are discussed constantly as like we have real UFO programs, you know, Kona Blue and this idea that we're transferring assets between Lockheed Martin, who had UFO material to Bigelow Aerospace. But the budgets associated with these programs are on the order of, you know, we're talking about $22 million. A single F-35 fighter jet is $85 million. A B-2 stealth bomber is over a billion dollars, a single B-2 stealth bomber. So you're telling me that we have, you know, hulls of a craft that we can fly, could go warp speed. Maybe we can even, you know, drop payloads with these things, which is so dystopian to even think about. But, like, if you're thinking with a military industrial complex hat on, you have to think that. And you're putting $22 million against that, the reverse engineering of that. Makes zero sense. Yeah. So then you have this idea of, like, what David Grush may or may not have bumped into, this, like, this legacy program. This like, you know, probably hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars going into actually reverse engineering this stuff. 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I'll wear them on a recording day, running around doing a million things, and I'm not thinking about my clothes at all, which is kind of the point. Same with their shorts and swim trunks that I have right here. They're lightweight, they're stretchy, they fit just right, and you're not dealing with that old scratchy mesh situation down there. You put them on and you're done. For a limited time, Chubbies is giving our listeners 20% off with code JESSE at chubbiesshorts.com. That is 20% off your order with code JESSE. Give your thighs the VIP treatment they deserve with Chubbies. Support our show, use our code, and tell them we sent you. Thank you so much to Chubbies for sponsoring today's episode. Do you have a base case of what is going on inside the government here? Oh, my God. I have no idea. Yeah. No, I mean, it's a total mystery what's really going on. There's so much disinformation as well, which makes it impossible to navigate all of this. Um, so once you get beyond the data that, that you can see that you've just listed, I mean, what can you say? I think it's, there are plenty of people who've come out and said that we have craft. It seems to be just sinking into our collective consciousness at this point that we've got some things and we've been trying to figure out what they are, but we haven't necessarily got that far. Some people say that we have, um, that's about as far as we get, you know, before the information starts to run dry. So I'm definitely convinced there's something there, definitely. But in terms of things I could be high confidence about, they're very limited. Yeah, I feel the same way. I have my editors here with me, and we both went to Aztec, New Mexico to investigate the crash there. Awesome. And I can't speak for him, but I came out kind of skeptical. I came in skeptical, and I came out pretty sure that there was a crash there. Because I really for a long time being into UFO stuff, I thought, you know, there was a conflation maybe going on between kind of some anti-gravity lineage of, you know, some exotic propulsion that maybe was created in Nazi Germany or, you know, maybe World War II. And then, you know, you develop it or whatever and they conflate it with these alien things. And maybe that is going on. I don't know. But, you know, I wasn't sure about the crashes. And I wasn't sure about a reverse engineering, you know, program. And after investigating a few of these crashes, I think the crashes are just real. And then, so the crashes were then, you know, if there's U.S. Air Force and CIA involvement, which, like, there always seems to be, as in the case of Virginia, even in Brazil, then, like, there has to be reverse engineering going on of those pieces. Of course. And then the weird thing is you have Jim Lekatsky coming out, you know, who is a DIA rocket scientist involved in OSAP, and he's now writing about this stuff, and he writes about it like it's some platonic puzzle. Like it's more of like a mystical object than it is something you'd ever even put throw physicists against. And you have the idea, you know, Eric Davis saying there were no physicists on the program. So maybe like the idea that there are crash retrievals, which is, you know, at this point that's like sort of passe in the sort of circle, like the Age of Disclosure, discussing this stuff openly. So then you have to ask, like, what is the underlying thing? If that's the tip of the iceberg, the underlying thing has to be much weirder than that. And so I get into, like, okay, maybe these are, like, mystical, maybe these are objects that are far stranger than, like, physics and engineering could ever, you know, explain, but I don't know. Do you think that they're part of a large system? Like maybe the majority of what we interact with is part of a single system, which is kind of artificial intelligence. I don't know, but I guess, yeah, I'm sympathetic to ideas like that, that were in some sort of control system or something. And these might be von Neumann replicator envoys or something of some like larger intelligence. So they are just like the tip of the spear and even gray aliens, which seem to have this very robotic, droid-like kind of mandate where they show up and they go, do not fear, do not fear. And they insert the thing and they kind of subdue you or whatever. Like all of that feels somewhat automated. Yeah. And if there are crashes, you say, oh, why would they fly from light years away just to crash or whatever? They're so advanced. well maybe this is just their earth homeostasis kit and maybe they're you know kind of disposable so i i am sympathetic to ideas like that but then we even the valet stuff as much i think he's this like an incredible godfather and he shifts your perspective in this super healthy way but he is so limited he's so limited i mean it's like what does that mean ai system ai control system. They use intermittent reinforcement maybe because that was the in vogue psychology at the time. Who the knows? Who knows? I don't know. What do you think? Well, I mean, I think at the very least we should focus there because he, 260,000 cases, like I said, the Capella database that he made and the levels of analysis that he did. Yeah, you're right. I mean, what he's sharing is very limited. I wonder what else is under there and we should be focusing our attention there. The fact that this database exists with that level of analysis and we're all out here, the other day Anna Paulina Luna, who's done phenomenal stuff for this progress of this conversation she tweeted out read the book of Enoch, and I'm thinking, I'm just like no, this isn't where we need to start, we've got to start with the data and what it says, and the book of Enoch should be one of the cases in the database not how we interpret it so I do think even though what he's saying may be somewhat cryptic, our focus should be on that huge source of data and what's under there And maybe some of it is very woo. Maybe there's some consistency to the woo. Maybe the woo is constantly a reflection of who we are and the consciousness that we bring to it, which is another thing that Valet talks about, actually, is this idea that the UFO isn't designed to carry beings from place A to place B, but it's designed to interface with our mind and to take the imagery we have in here and to kind of like a dream, right? You see everything throughout your day. You have these experiences. is you go to sleep and you mix the experience you just had with your deep subconscious thought into this whole new thing that function exists and billions of people use it every single night what if the ufo does that and so when we interact with it we're engaging with the weird robotic beings and this system which kind of seems weird but with the right person it can get in here and change the way you perceive it completely well i think i think that is the case but then you again you have to employ this radical Cartesian doubt of like, what is it intending to do to you? And if it can do that in the form of an experience, it can do that in the form of a data set that it's manufacturing itself as well. So science is really well set up to study lower level biological systems. You know, like I can study an ant or, you know, or just inanimate material very easily. But like, if I am the ant on the arm of a human being, and you're using your own version of science with the ant. We're just like, you know, when you have these summoning programs of UFOs, like Skywatcher is this kind of modern version of this or whatever, but it seems like we've been doing this kind of in, you know, special access programs for a while. Like, what if we're just like raccoons chewing on the power cables and then the humans show up and they go, stop chewing on those power cables, and then they shut down your sensors, and then you're like, but like, how will the raccoons ever understand what the humans want or why they're showing up when you do a thing, when you do a little nuclear baiting or whatever. So you end up with these really hard epistemic impasses. And then the meta-meta thing would be the brain scrambling of the data that you're receiving and of these programs that happens in the individual allows you to grow, and then that growing allows you to make a better connection. Your interface and your processing and your measurement system gets better. And then you get to interface more in a way that, like, actually is comprehensible to you with these beings. But I don't know. It's very complicated. It brings me back to what you said earlier about this idea. What if the purpose isn't to have disclosure, but instead to have some sort of personal evolution experience through interacting with these things? Because then you would understand the system would make your science futile. It would make it impossible for you to get this big objective theory, which we all want because of the way we currently operate as a society. What if the next stage of human evolution isn't about that kind of mindset about how we approach things? So, you know, it's a big theory, but it's interesting to consider whether or not it's attempting to force us away from our traditional analyses. I think it is. I think the observer observed dichotomy is breaking down. I think the idea of, you know, like you said, sort of some objective theory of everything is breaking out. Like you're going to see like a sort of maybe not infinite but somewhat fracturing of reality and theories when it comes to this stuff. I think it breaks our prior epistemics. I think it's an epistemological revolution. It's not a scientific revolution. Yeah. It's like it's deeper than just like, you know, oh, quantum physics. I think it's more than that. Yeah. what do you think about the human technology angle you kind of touched on it there with the anti-gravity stuff from the nazis and how it makes i think one of the things people really struggle with is trying to grapple with can both of those things be true can we be engaging with this huge phenomenon whilst also human beings may have created technology that could imitate it which that's again something valet talks about which is very very interesting yeah i you know In Secret Machines, Tom DeLonge's book talks about this as well, human craft that is derivative of, and even if you talk to Bob Lazar and you go deep enough with him, it's not really reverse engineering. It's like parallel engineering. It's not figuring out exactly how the thing was made. It's figuring out how to recreate the thing with prosaic human means. And so then you have to ask, was the thing dropped or donated as a gift or something to accelerate human evolution? or, you know, to create science that is derivative of or inspired by the thing. And, you know, for that, you have to go off of kind of, you know, read the tea leaves on people like Philip Corso or, you know, I'm obsessed with, you know, Thomas Townsend Brown and his anti-gravity research. And it seems like he was inspired by, quote, unquote, Space Brothers. He actually engaged in a crash retrieval operation. Townsend Brown did? Yes. Oh, wow. In 1958 in Hartford, Connecticut, that Michael Swords documents. Fascinating. Yeah. And then he goes to Moonwatch, Project Moonwatch, which was a satellite viewing operation. They were tied in, actually, with Blue Book at the time. And Robert Friend and J.L. and Hynek have a piece of this crash at Hartford, Connecticut. And Townsend Brown flashes his credentials. I think he was very spooky. And he was like, I'm taking this material. So it's really crazy. Interesting. You assume that. What year was that that he was able to do that? 58. So you assume that Townsend Brown is an explanation or, you know, away from. It's a rationalization of why we're seeing these things in the sky because it's just deep black military SR-71 modern equivalents. Easy option. And then you get into Townsend Brown's life and it's like, no, he claimed he was like kind of communicating with aliens half the time. Like Agnew Bonson, he was funding him was really trippy and seemed like he was in contact with stuff. so it's a very complicated sort of you end up always with a yes and sort of answer you know and even going back to the Nazis right where people like to say they're the ones who generated this technology but you documented in one of your videos who was the individual who said that we had help from what was his name? Herman Oberth right so Herman Oberth is the godfather of you know German rocketry and Wernher von Braun's mentor and there's even a lot of audio of him talking about UFOs, and he said they were aided and had help. And I was just in Japan, actually, and there's a guy named Takano Joseon, and he met Herman Oberth, and they discussed UFOs openly. And so, yeah, he was very interested in UFOs. Did he say anything else about UFOs? Dr. Oberth. But Dr. Oberth truly respected the beams actually riding in UFOs. It's really just wild. And you did an amazing video on Nazi UFO-like technology as well. And you talk about Richard Mita. You want to talk about that? Yeah, I mean, all those different stories from the Nazi era, very, very interesting. And it's one of these cases where it's very hard to say that there's no smoke without fire. I can't remember all the names. You've got Mita, Shriver, Valuzzo. there's like four or five other individuals who all claim to have worked on what appear to be multiple different attempts to build disc-shaped craft. And with varying degrees of success, I think we often end up in an either-or about the Nazis and the technology. And they say, well, if they developed it, why didn't they use it during the war? Therefore, it can't have happened. Whereas I think a middle ground is more interesting that they are experimenting with making these for whatever reason. We can get into that later, why they may have been inspired. and some of them may have been somewhat interesting and half successful by the time the war was closing out. It's fascinating. The video you made is amazing and it shows, you know, Mita in 52 gives this interview to this French paper and he says, if you see UFOs in the sky, they're probably the ones that I designed. And it's built by, you know, the Habermal Project and, you know, Scoda Works under Hans Kammler. and you have Rudolf Schreiber and I think, you know, saying that in 1944, we finally flew this craft and it rose to, you know, 40,000 feet in a few minutes. I think you even have an apocryphal story where Paul Mellon, who's one of the founders of the CIA, his grandson is a guy named John Warner IV. And he talks about, he said he's on his third martini with Paul Mellon. and Paul Mellon tells him that he and Alan Dulles were on this, like, you know, tech retrieval operation deep in, you know, post-World War II, you know, Nazi Germany, or maybe it was, like, 44, 45, and they're saying that they're standing atop this huge saucer-like UFO in Czechoslovakia, by the way, which is Pilsen, which is where Skoda Works took place, and you talk about it in this video, which is an amazing video. Everybody should watch it. And for whatever reason, the U.S. was less interested in Berlin than they were in going to Pilsen, which is where this secret weapons program was housed for Nazi Germany. I think what's really fascinating is there was this rush, obviously, at the end of the war. And you see General Patton's army arrive and they steamroll, like you said, to Pilsen before going to Berlin, which is very interesting. What's more fascinating to me is the fact that nearly a year earlier, the Nazis had planned to get out of Europe and to take all of their sensitive stuff. so we go in there we pick up like the horton brothers thing and who's the guy who made the reverse impeller victor schauberger i always forget his name right we got some schauberger stuff and there's this idea that the soviets got maybe more than they should have got and we got what we got and we divided up the spoils but in reality there may have been a third part to this which is the mass evacuation of technology and people and gold and money starting in well 1943 but certainly 1944 with the Maison Rouge meeting. I think that is really, really important. And actually ties into, in DeLong's fiction book, Secret Machines, he talks about the Maynard Consortium. For those who don't know, DeLong co-authored some fiction books with A.J. Hartley. And the idea was, can we tell some really sensitive stuff about history and obscure it as fiction? Jim Semivan, who was one of the advisors for To The Stars Academy and I think he a senior executive service like just two people under the CIA director when he was working there So very very senior And he says that book very very interesting and I can remember who it was he was being interviewed by maybe James Iandole said can you tell us what it is that interesting about the book and he says no I'm not going to tell you but if you read it the Maynard Consortium is very interesting because it's this private organization which seems to have a handle not simply on the UFO issue but a huge amount of power geopolitically as well a lot of people have been trying to figure out what the Maynard Consortium is. I think I have an answer, by the way, which I can share. And it ties into what happened at the end of the war. So you want to go in for a long one on that? I want to hear, because that's come up a bunch for me, and I'm fascinated by it. And I do think Secret Machines hit a lot of truth and fiction, and it was inspired by conversations with General Neil McCaslin, who, by the way, is now missing, which is crazy. He went missing from his home in New Mexico. Days after Trump announced that there was going to be some sort of disclosure. UFO disclosure, and you have a guy who is the sole source, or not the sole source, one of the few sources for kind of modern disclosure in a lot of what came out of Tom DeLonge's work. And he's this really high-up general. And if you wanted disclosure and you were part of the current admin, you'd immediately hit him up. And then he's just like, you know, missing without a trace in a super sophisticated way, leaves his phone behind. Everything that you could use to track him, you know, is just, you know, left behind. And he takes a gun. Very strange. It's very strange. But in Secret Machines, Tom DeLonge's book, he writes about the Maynard Consortium. And it's this, like, Ben Rich also, who is the, you know, Skunk Works guy, you know, in the 90s, president of Skunk Works, who is responsible for, you know, the SR-71 and, or sorry, he was responsible for modern stealth aircraft. He writes about an international corporate board of directors that deals with the UFO issue. And then Townsend Brown also runs into this sort of, you know, the Caroline Group, this international group of industrialists that seem to suck up all of the exotic tech. And then you have Secret Machines, the Maynard Consortium, which is described very similarly to those two things. What is the Maynard Consortium? Yeah. Well, I think there's a business that fits the description really well, which we don't talk about very much. But to kind of build the picture of this, I'll give you a bit of a backdrop. So let's go back to the Maison Rouge meeting, okay? So this is 1944, I think August 10th, sometime around there. The Nazis know they're going to lose the war. So at this point, I think they've had the D-Day invasions. There's been Stalingrad. It's not going well. So Martin Bormann assembles all the leaders of industry into this meeting in Paris, very secret meeting. They sweep the rooms to make sure no one can hear what they're going to talk about and basically plan the mass evacuation of German industry technology people. and based on documentation that Peter Lavender's seen, they were successful. So there's a State Department document which talks about how, this was in 1945, they'd already realized hundreds of new companies had been set up in Nicaragua and Argentina and it's all connected to these Nazi industrialists. So it really happened. So the question is, why was that possible? We're at war with these people. We have all these intelligence agencies operating who had information about this. So how did they get away with it? And the people who were at that meeting were, like you said, wealthy industrialists, many of whom had relationships with American and UK industrialists as well. So you have the likes of Herman Schmidt, I think was the IG Farben guy. You have the representatives of Ford and Standard Oil, the German subdivisions. Their heads were at that meeting as well. And you have people from this Bank of International Settlements, which is this weird transnational bank as well. The important thing, and also Schroeder, so Baron von Schroeder, one of his people was there. All of those people for 20 years up to this point had had a deep relationship with the Rockefellers, with the Morgans, with Hambro and the United Kingdom. all of these like financial giants and oil giants had been working together. IG Farben and Standard Oil had come to an arrangement where they would have mutual monopolies before the war. So Standard Oil would dominate oil across both sides of the Atlantic. IG Farben would do the petrochemical side. And you had agreements between Rockefeller starting a company with the Schroders. So Rockefeller, Schroeder and company. All of this was happening in the 30s. They also had already partnered on an initiative, which I think blowed my mind to realize this was historical. Have you heard of the business plot? Oh, yeah. Schmedley Butler. Yeah. Yeah, they were trying to take out FDR. Yeah. FDR came into government, had his plans for the New Deal. And so this group of transnational finance people, Morgan, DuPont, all of these people, and with support and encouragement from their German counterparts, planned this plot. It sounds like fiction, but they were going to take this general who they had a conversation with and said, look, we want you to do this. They're going to raise an army of like 500,000 people in March to Washington and forcefully remove the president from office. And it's true. It's history. So these German industrialists and the Western industrialists, they were working together. And even as the war began, that was happening. The Union Bank was funding the Nazis. Which was the Union Bank? I think Prescott Bush was, you know, president of the Union Bank. And then Dulles was, you know, helping out with, you know, some Nazi financing in every World War II. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, hanging out in Switzerland. Yeah. He was connected to nearly every single, like, German Nazi titan of industry. Yeah. And, of course, Ford was, you know, very tied in. The wild thing with Ford was when the UK was trying to get into the war, they needed to create engines for their jets, for their fighter pilots. And Ford said, no, we're not going to do that. We're prioritizing the trunks for Nazi Germany. This is the dynamic that was going on. And FDR knew this. And he said in a conversation, a letter that he wrote that the financial interest had owned America since the time of Andrew Jackson. him. He was very aware that these people had tried to remove him, but they had huge amounts of power. So the point here is those industrialists who meet in the Maison Rouge in 1944, they're the same people who have these relationships with all of these people. So the Rockefellers, all of these big business people can't afford for Nazi industry to fall through. They're highly invested in it through subsidiaries, through Swiss bank accounts. That entire industry which is there, which is under threat, needs to be evacuated to protect their business interests as a baseline, let alone taking advantage of any technological advances which have happened. So I think that's very, very important. But there's another dynamic here, which I find shocking just to say it out loud. You ask yourself, well, if that was happening, what about the intelligence agencies who would surely be monitoring the situation? But who was running the intelligence agencies in wartime Europe? You know, you just mentioned Dulles, right? So you've got the Office of Strategic Services, which is run by Donovan with Dulles. Donovan's also a Wall Street lawyer. People don't know. There was also another American intelligence agency dedicated to South America, which is the Office for the Coordination of Inter-American Affairs. You ask yourself, well, who would be the right person to run a vast intelligence agency for South America? Just turns out to be Nelson Rockefeller. OK. Meanwhile, you've got the British Security Coordination, which is run by William Stevenson, who's a very interesting individual. He has his office who's in Rockefeller Plaza right next to the OSS, and Nelson Rockefeller's there too. And then you've got the special operations executive in the United Kingdom. Again, who would be the best person to run this highly sensitive intelligence network? It turned out to be one of the directors of the Bank of England, Hambrose. So what you've got here is a situation where these finance and industrialists are in bed together before the war. During the war, they keep trading. And the very people who should be keeping their eyes on them are running the intelligence networks, which are going to enable them to evacuate all of this technology. Now, that backdrop is very important because after the war, all those intelligence agencies basically get shut down, reintegrated into different places. So what are those people going to do with all the relationships that they've developed? Well, there is an organization which was created initially in 1945 and then rebranded in 1947. It's called the World Commerce Corporation. You'll see it now. If you hear that and you go back to Lavender, you go back to different books, you'll see it pop up. It is the most bland-sounding organization, very much like the Maynard Consortium, right? Which was, by the way, in the book founded in the late 40s, just like this was. So what is the World Commerce Corporation? Well, it's founded in Panama to obscure its foundations. On the board, Donovan, Stephenson, Hambrose. You've got Dulles doing the legal counsel. There's a whole bunch of other high-powered UK people, loads of OSS people who are out of work. And there's also connections to organized crime, which we can talk about in a minute, and the Nazi underground too. This organization had between 250 and 500 subsidiaries after a couple of years. So if you look at the Maynard Consortium, one of the big parts of the plot there is that all of its finances and its operations are obscured by these companies, which appear and disappear. And that's exactly what you get with the World Commerce Corporation. A lot of those companies can be tied directly to the drug smuggling and arms trafficking, which people tend to say the CIA did this, which it kind of did. But it was doing this through private organizations, which all route back to the World Commerce Corporation. So this is a very interesting organization which appears right after the war. And Rockefeller, Morgan, and all these people are also a part of this too. Whoa. Fascinating. So fascinating. Interesting. thing do we have any evidence that they had anything to do with ufos or it just sounds exactly like the maynard consortium from a personnel perspective from a personnel perspective yes and i think you know what's interesting is in the novel the connection to ufos is kind of like pretty obscure anyway in this case i think you know what we've got to look at is that maison ruge meeting and whatever the best technology was that was taken out of nazi germany um would have been relocated somewhere else under the auspices of these intelligence people who had that unique information, right? So these are the people with the relationships before the war, during and afterwards with the unique insights. One of the people, I think it was Tom Hill, he was one of the UK members of WCC. He said the goal was to take advantage of the relationships we'd accrued during the war. And Peter Levander, when he briefly touched us on it, he says the objective was to facilitate trade between South America and Germany. Okay. that's a very interesting dynamic to have another guy peter peter dale scott is he the guy who writes about gfk dade and yeah yeah i did the term deep state right there you go the right guy so he describes as a private intelligence agency for people like for nelson um like like the rockefellers financiers so very very interesting descriptions from people who look into this and what's fascinating is the the bulk of the information i got from this was from a forum online. I mean, it's amazing what some of these people will dig up on forums. They were investigating the World Commerce Corporation purely through the lens of the Kennedy assassination. They weren't looking at this in terms of UFOs, but for them, this organization was critical to that nexus. So, to be very clear here about the UFO thing, the reason I'm interested is not just because of secret machines, but also because of Jacques Vallée's Messengers of Deception. You might think it's the only book I've ever read, but it had a huge impact on me. And when he's speaking with this guy, Major Murphy, this is one of his key sources in the book, we don't know the guy's real name, some sort of general, presumably. He's talking with Valet about what if it's possible that people created flying saucers during the war? And he points to 1943 and he says, you know, what if someone was experimenting with this technology? It turns out its real advantage wasn't its flight capabilities, but it's psychotronic effect. And he suggests that it's not, I mean, Valet then butts in basically and says, are you seriously suggesting that the Nazis are behind the UFO phenomenon? And his response is, why are you talking about the Nazis? Other people became involved, okay? So the implication here is that somehow this technology ends up getting worked on by other people. And wherever that was, the really interesting stuff presumably got evacuated out. And this private organization appears with huge numbers of subsidiaries. And remember, all their shell companies, the German setup, presumably could be interlocking through all of that obscurity with an emphasis on trade relationships with South America. So, you know, I can't peer beneath the covers there, but I think it's very interesting. It's fascinating. Was the royal prince of Liechtenstein involved in the World Commerce Consortium? Not from what I've seen. Was it World Commerce? This is why. It's such a boring name. World Commerce Corporation. World Commerce Corporation. By the way, they also created a World Banking Corporation, a World Finance Corporation, a Banking World Corporation. I mean, like, yeah, this is when you dig into this stuff, it's almost impossible to dig through all these shells. Generic shell companies that, you know, are meant to not be – they're meant to be forgotten, like I just did in this conversation. Exactly. I'm falling prey to it. Yeah, I mean, you also have a lot of interesting connections between some of these old families that you're mentioning as part of the WCC, let's just call it that, and UFOs. So like Rockefeller, for example, you know, Detlev Bronk was the president of the Rockefeller Foundation. He was rumored to be the, yeah, president. Wow. He was rumored to be on the Majestic 12, rumored to do all the early alien autopsies, president of the medical school at Johns Hopkins, which obviously has a lot of kind of intel agency ties. William Stevenson was very close with Thomas Townsend Brown. In fact, when Thomas Townsend Brown did a tech retrieval mission behind enemy lines in World War II, there's a telegram from William Stevenson to Townsend's wife, Josephine, and he says, your husband is okay. You know, we have him, he's okay, and he comes back and he recovers or whatever. But he's extremely close with Townsend. They also went on these sort of trips to the Bahamas on this yacht owned by this guy Eldridge Reefs Johnson, who was head of RCA, you know, Victor Talking Machines Company, and they were interested in really exotic technology. If you read William Stevenson's biography, A Man Called Intrepid, by another guy named William Stevenson, which is funny. It's spelled a little differently. William Stevenson. It confused me, by the way. I was digging up William Stevenson. I thought he'd written some of the books. Yeah, it's not an autobiography, but it's Stevenson with a V wrote it for the P.H. Stevenson. I'd be careful with that. Yeah. He, you know, the super spy Stevenson was also very close with a guy named Charles Proteus Steinmetz, who was working for GE in Shinnecdoche, New York, and was extremely interested in kind of heterodox models for electromagnetism. You know, what might be described today as extended electrodynamics, which people like Hal Puthoff are very interested in. And then you have Agnew Bonson, who's funding all the top theoretical physicists at the time, but also a lot of interesting people like Townsend Brown, literally working on anti-gravity, doing anti-gravity experiments. And he wrote a book called The Stars Are Too High. And it's a book about rogue Nazi scientists who break off and collaborate with Americans scientists and create essentially man-made UFOs and then stage an alien invasion. And he dies a couple years later in a bizarre plane crash, which to this day, his family thinks, you know, he was killed essentially because the power lines were put up right where, you know, he was right on the landing strip or whatever. So, yeah. And then you have Kissinger probably tied in with UFO stuff as well. William Steinman, you know, goes to the house of Eric Henry Wing, who has ran special projects at Wright Patterson. And he meets with Wing's widow, Maria Wing. And she's like, yes, my husband did work on UFOs. And his boss was Henry Kissinger. And there are a couple other. I did a whole video essay on Henry Kissinger. But there are a couple of other things that make me believe Kissinger might have been tied in with the whole UFO thing. thing, and Kissinger was probably more beholden to Nelson Rockefeller than he was to Nixon throughout his tenure as Secretary of State under Nixon. So loose threads, but like... Oh, but they keep overlapping. They keep overlapping. And on the American scientist and Nazi scientist thing, one of the fascinating things with the World Commerce Corporation is they have a vice president called Ricardo Sikor. I don't know how you pronounce his second name, but SICRE seems to be the S-I-C-R-E. And he was essentially, I think, a Spanish guy, Spanish spy during World War II, who was basically employed by the OSS. And, you know, he seems interesting. He seems kind of a little bit dodgy, connected to organized crime, all of this stuff. But he had, I think he had a colleague or a friend in Spain called Robert Rourke. and it turns out they lived in the same apartment complex. So Robert Rourke is writing sort of travel journals and occasionally mentions his adventures with Ricardo Sica and he talks about how they are part of a secret society which strides the world is the phrase he uses. He's describing himself, Ricardo Sica, also the oil magnate, I think he's Jake Hammond. What's fascinating here, who lives in the same building as Rourke and Sica? Otto Skorzeny. Whoa. Yeah. So they're living there. Tell people who Otto Skorzeny is. He's a famous Nazi commando who I think had saved the life of Mussolini. A big scar across his face. And had relationships with some of the highest echelons of Nazi power. I think there's a relationship. One of his wives was very well connected with Hjalmar Schacht, who was the head of the Reich Bank and Bank of International Settlements, I think. So he had connections to this fraternity, transnational brotherhood thing. And ironically, I think, went to South America, was this notoriously kind of ruthless guy, and I think then partnered up with Mossad after, so he like worked with the Israelis after being a Nazi. Yeah, right, he like trained them on some stuff. It's really confusing, that whole thing. Yeah, what's going on with the Mossad getting involved in it? But there's another thing about this too. I mean, firstly, Lavender talks about how Otto Skorzeny is the public face of this huge Nazi underground. He's the guy with the relationships to whatever escaped afterwards. There's also a fascinating entry from a lady called Aline Griffith, who briefly worked for the World Commerce Corporation. She'd later go on to become a countess. I don't know why she had that prefix eventually. So Griffith writes in her biography, in her journals, that when she first worked for the World Commerce Corporation, She was working for Frank Lai and the president. And they seem to be doing, you know, it seemed to be like a CIA front, but it was agreed it wasn't really a CIA front. It was its own thing. She described it as a precursor to the Iran-Contra situation, right? So basically drug smuggling, arms smuggling across borders, using all of those shell companies. And then she says it was very different eight or nine years after that because Otto Skorzini came in and took over the operation. and when he did we suddenly got access to resources and things I wasn't even aware of and at some point she says I didn't even want to know what was going on so according to her and by the way she was connected to I think Nancy Reagan and a whole bunch of elite people in the US she was basically saying the World Commerce Corporation not only was it the precursor to Iran-Contra but eventually Otto Skortzini took on a serious leadership role he wasn't just an obscure connection after a few years and I think that raises questions about what those operations may have been that they are engaging in, and what shadowy underworld they may have been connected to as well. There are other mafia figures connected. You've got papal aristocracy on the board as well. I mean, it's impossible to list all the names here without going off. Yeah. But eventually it links to the Bahamas with Thomas Townsend Brown and that whole geographical location. How does it link with the Bahamas? Yeah, well, if you read the novel Secret Machines again, the main art consortium is likely described, founded in the 40s, has all of these shell companies, but eventually in 1964, something happens, right? So, very clear, there's this mysterious entity called SWEEP, okay? And a lot of people have been trying to figure out what's SWEEP, we figured out, Maynard Consortium, I think, but people think SWEEP, W-S-W-E-E-P, capital letters, people assume it must be the SWIFT organization, right? Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Transactions. The thing is, DeLong's very clear, SWEEP is obscure, okay, you're not going to be able to figure out what it is, it's hardly mentioned anywhere, but it involves all this money from this huge underground being funneled, hundreds of billions being funneled about the time of 1964. Now, I haven't figured out what Sweep is, but some very interesting things happened in 1964. Firstly, you've got something called Money Wrecks, you heard of this? Yeah. It sounds like some sort of a child's conception of a game or something, but it's a real thing involving a guy called, I think it's Mikhail Sindona. Again, first name. I haven't heard anyone pronounce it, so I could have got that wrong. This guy had worked with James Jesus Angleton, big mob figure. And he was basically responsible for helping the mafia move their money without that being noticed in covert ways. And eventually he became extremely good at this. By 1964, the mafia was basically saying, look, we need you to launder all of our money. We have too much of it. And so he creates something called Money Wrecks. I only stumbled across this a few days ago, so the pieces are sketchy here. But MoneyRex basically becomes connected. It's this single entity that's connected to 850 banks, and it's used to do the world's biggest money laundering operation ever, $200 billion, according to the author, Paul Williams. And what's fascinating is Sindona, as part of this, would acquire his own banks. Many of those banks, when he would acquire them, two or three people would then acquire all the rest of the shares, one was the Baskin Bank the other one was Charles Hambro so the financier who ran the special operations executive Bank of England director and a founding member of the World Commerce Corporation so and also bear in mind Vallée I think in one of his novels he says a lot of this might be traced back to a private European bank from the 1800s Charles Hambro's bank would fit that very well anyway so you've got this huge money wreck thing which is suddenly able to launder hundreds of billions of dollars. In 1964, it's exactly what DeLong describes in the book. The question is, where does that go? And this is where it's tricky to figure it out, but a lot of world commerce corporation associated individuals would suddenly be moving towards the Bahamas. Something happened down there where a group of people had done what was called the Hawksbill Creek Agreement, and they purchased 50,000 acres of land from the Bahamanian government, effectively creating an autonomous estates where they had no laws no one was overseeing them they could create as many shell companies that they wanted at scale now which is one of the things that they did and as part of that they created this thing called devco d-e-v-c capital letters for a little while i was thinking is this sweep you know five letters capital letters i don't think it is but devco becomes controlled by the world commerce corporation who then suddenly take this interest in the Bahamas and these shell companies start to appear. I think the combination of this mass money laundering and all of these shell companies could equate to something. This is a could, okay? You're with me here in the middle of my investigation. But what happens is the Bahamas becomes a location associated with all sorts of weird stuff. Like you said, Thomas Townsend Brown is meeting William Stevenson, one of the founding members of the World Commerce Corporation in the Bahamas. You have all of this stuff happening on Nassau, the island there. and you also have Howard Hughes who suddenly gets brought down there really? yeah I haven't dug into the story very deeply but Howard Hughes there's different stories associated with it it seems in one story it's a voluntary thing in another one he seems to be kind of taken down there to be held for some reason wow yeah and I don't have a huge like background on Howard Hughes but he's suddenly in the Bahamas as of endless people another fascinating link is Alfred Krupp so one of the titans of German industry I think he was at the Maison Rouge meeting. And in 1955, he goes down there with one of the richest men in the world, Axel Wenner-Gren, a Swedish multi-billionaire. And they go down to Nassau to discuss power plays, is what's described, right? The big business power plays. So there's some gravitational force pulling people in. But the final thing I find fascinating is Resorts International. You familiar with them? No. Sounds so boring. Why would I care about Resorts International? There's this island in that location, the Bahamas. It's called Hog Island. And a guy, it was actual Wenner-Gren actually purchased it, rebranded it, Paradise Island. He's a good marketer. He knows what he's doing. People are going to go to Paradise Island. And they basically end up building this fancy hotel there and everything. You're thinking, this is really uninteresting. What happens is a weird paint company. I wish the vendor was here because he could tell us what's really going on. There's this paint company called the Mary Carter Paint Company. It's like a CIA front, which is then converted into this organization called Resorts International, which is kind of running Paradise Island and some casinos and gambling, which presumably is being used for money laundering. That casino, that Resorts International organization, decides to create a subsidiary designed to do intel checks on staff, which then gets rebranded into what's called International Intelligence Incorporated, Intertel. This is a private intelligence agency, which suddenly is employing some of the most talented executives, not executives, but CIA, MISX people are suddenly working for this non-state intelligence network, which is a subsidiary of what is effectively a casino industry. Intertel, I think, is interesting, and I want to invest time there for a very specific reason. Jim Semivan is interested in The Secret Machines book, and I think we might have pulled some of the threads about why. he also talks about this idea of a non-state hostile intelligence network I don't know if you've heard that phrase before I find it fascinating it's in reference to Havana Syndrome actually and he's very subtle about it and he walks right up to the line and he says you might want to consider what Mike Pompeo had said about this non-state hostile intelligence network and it's like wow a transnational non-state and the World Commerce Corporation kind of fits that that's what Peter Dale Scott described it as but Resorts International suddenly has a subsidiary, which has a private intelligence network, which is doing very dubious stuff. It's connected to organized crime, mail, and ski, all of this stuff. What's fascinating is that's like the seventies. You know, who becomes the controller of Resorts International in the mid seventies? Yeah. Donald Trump. No way. Why? I know. It's so interesting. For a brief period, he was the guy who basically in charge of it for a year or so. whilst this private intelligence network is presumably still being run. There are many reasons I find that interesting. I mean, one of them is the context in which Jim Samyvan references the non-state intelligence networks, obviously Havana syndrome, but he's also referencing it in terms of WikiLeaks. Yeah. He's saying, you know, that the WikiLeaks thing may have been coming from there. So you go back to the 2016 election, you've got Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton's doing very well and is promising to release information about UFOs and try and pull the lid off of things. according to Sammy Van a non-state intelligence network is responsible for the leaking of these emails which were pretty decisive in forcing Trump in and Clinton out but isn't that because Pompeo hated Julian Assange and isn't he just talking about WikiLeaks? it's totally possible that he could be describing that but what I find interesting is Sammy Van's focus on it in the context of Havana Syndrome you know so he's saying you might want to think about what he's saying there so I've been looking cautiously and trying to figure out where can I identify private transnational intelligence apparatuses. Because I think this is one of the big mistakes we make in terms of analyzing geopolitics as well, is when you're constrained to your analysis through the lens of nation states. For sure. You know, you don't have the granularity to understand what's going on. You think, well, it's US versus Iran, it's Russia versus Ukraine, and we all continue to be mystified about what's really going on with these wars. These sort of transnational entities, whether it's this Nazi underground, the mafia, or a private intelligence network, which may have elitances which aren't aligned with the United States, but leverages intelligence from the United States. Could these be important components to try and understand what's going on? Absolutely. Well, there's, I don't know if you've ever read Carol Quigley, the Anglo-American establishment, but it talks about how U.S. intelligence agencies were birthed out of this kind of roundtable culture between secret societies in the U.S. and the U.K., or really Britain at the time. And it was Cecil Rhodes and Lord Alfred Milner and, you know, counterparts in the U.S. And they had these kind of loose informal organizations. And the idea that after 1947, when the CIA gets created and those things get formally disbanded, those all go away is ridiculous. You know, those informal networks have to persist in some shape or form. And then you look at the Epstein stuff, and it kind of points at that too. And it points at a lot of science suppression being a theme. He tells Bannon that he's, you know, decides to set up Zorro Ranch because Los Alamos physicists are retiring, you know, in New Mexico. And so he wants to be, you know, have proximity to them. He says he kills ponds in an email, which is cold fusion. He's talking about ponds and Fleischmann. And then you go back to the idea that Maxwell, you know, probably Robert Maxwell, because obviously, you know, Epstein is with Ghislaine Maxwell. Robert Maxwell is Ghislaine's father. You know, people always note his Israeli intelligence ties, which are definitely a thing. But he also, I believe, was tied in with the MI6. And so you have this MI6 guy in Robert Maxwell, who I also don't think anybody knows, interrogated Nazi scientists post-World War II, and then he's setting up scientific peer review, and then his, you know, call it his son-in-law, I don't think Ghislaine and, you know, Jeffrey were married necessarily, but like his, you know, his protege, who's saying he's going around, he's suppressing science in the form of Pond's Fleischman, you know, and that feels like this bizarre international network, shadow network thing, you know? Absolutely. I mean, if you keep looking at the connection of all these companies, Robert Maxwell very quickly comes into frame. So you're with Resorts International, you've got Perm Index and all these things, and they're all connected to World Commerce Corporation. Very quickly, just one increase of the lens you're looking at, Maxwell appears. It's recent to all of this. And it makes complete sense, right? Aline Griffith is saying this nexus was the precursor to Iran-Contra. Arms trafficking, drug trafficking, trafficking in general, and this lack of allegiance to any individual nation or state and this willingness to sort of trounce on various alliances to fulfill your objectives. And Maxwell's also interesting because of the promised software scandal. Are you familiar with that? Oh, very, yeah. Right. So he sold that to Sandia Labs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoever had the back door to there suddenly had all of their information. Yes. So Robert Maxwell is selling software that is systematically siphoning off American nuclear secrets to some organization. Yeah. That is very weird and worthy of investigation, you would think. And I think that's where, you know, what's interesting to me is, you know, we traced it all the way back to the 30s and those original financial relationships. A lot of those people were anti-Semitic, right? But by the time you get to the 70s and 80s, the Mossad has accrued such power, especially through software. I spent years in cybersecurity. One time I was kind of asked to write a paper on the Israeli cybersecurity industry, and I was blown away by how they punched it up that way. Oh, yeah. It's well known now, I think, in the public, that cyber warfare capabilities, they're off the charts. So the Promise software scandal, it's not just like an early example of cyber warfare. It was the one where no one was ready for it. They deployed that software everywhere and got access to information and information's power. So I just wonder about the shift of this network. And I think ultimately at that level, when you're ultimately a transnational criminal network, Like, you don't necessarily have the same allegiances that we might have at our level of the culture. But there certainly seems to have been a shift towards Israeli power in that underbelly, I think. Well, yeah, they have an elite hacking unit called 8200. And, you know, all those guys are like, you know, elite cyber hackers and stuff. And did Pegasus also come out of Israel? which, you know, is obviously, you know, if that's on your phone, you know, they track all your keystrokes, you know, pretty much everything. They've already got it all. There's no point worrying about it anymore. I mean, they're on everywhere. Yeah, they're very competent in those areas. Yeah. I don't know where that leads us. It's open-ended. I mean, right now I'm trying to figure out all those connections from when you get to the Bahamas. But where does it ultimately intersect with UFOs? And to me, this is where it gets very interesting because, you know, what was it you said about this international corporation board that… Oh, that Ben Rich was saying. Well, he was saying at the end of his life, he was talking about UFOs, and he was lamenting the fact that the UFO issue was governed by this international corporate board and was hoping that it would be taken under the kind of the umbrella of, you know, American intel and aerospace world more. Yeah. Which is fascinating. Yes. Because you hear a guy who's at the tip of the spear when it comes to building recon planes for the CIA and, you know, very advanced American defense tech. And he's saying that there's something international above him that governs the UFO issues. You think that's the guy who's got the secrets and he's frustrated because he doesn't have them. That's right. And whatever that entity is, if it still exists right now, I think you see this sort of conflation of the Epstein issue and the deep state issue and the underground criminal networks with the UFO issue. And I think they intersect in there. Whatever it is today is probably quite dangerous. So I'm glad we only went up to the 80s. Yeah. Well, yeah. Exactly. Shifting gears before both of us get whacked. You know, you did a really amazing video essay on some of the deeper threads. Maybe this is just as dangerous, by the way. Some of the deeper threads of ufology where you basically see this kind of playbook of manufactured division going on. Where you get these infighting dynamics of UFO researchers sort of hating each other. you often get these sort of constructs as well of like symposiums studying ufos in the context of like you you describe it as like of the lineage of the american academy of arts and sciences which is fascinating so um yeah i want to hear more about that yeah it's super important um again you know we talked earlier about how this movement is growing okay and there's more and more people talking about this and a lot of the people involved are doing you know really phenomenal research like look at you ap gerb guys yeah the other day i i tried to copy and paste all of his transcripts into a single document so i could control f them and uh microsoft word broke it couldn't handle there was like a thousand pages it was unbelievable yeah he's amazing he's unbelievable yeah and uh you know you look at someone like him what are your options as you know if you're part of the secrecy faction and you've been tasked with trying to keep this information in what are your options you can go and you can say we need to improve our data leak prevention systems so this information doesn't come out and yeah that's one problem with your strategy the other one is how do you deal with someone like gerb and there's many different ways you can do it and number one is you can start to psychologically manipulate someone based on their profile and i think no matter who you are if you believe that you immune to that you exactly the target they going to be looking for Now these people have been practicing the arse of psychological manipulation for hundreds of years and we should assume if there's a real there there and people like you and me and other people who are trying to just keep moving a little bit deeper, is there value in trying to interrupt those individuals? And there's a very simple way to, it sounds like, you know, again, is someone going to get whacked? No, that's the obvious thing to do. Right. The really smart thing to do is sources. Okay. So what I do is I'm like, well, Jesse's interested in this. And what I do is I give you a couple of really good bits of information to start with. Right. And suddenly you're breaking the story about this thing that's maybe somewhat important, but it's not too important. And you build a relationship of trust with me. And now you're thinking, well, yeah, I'm going to make my next video, but I'm kind of interested in what Jason's going to share next. And, you know, then I start to introduce more and more unusual, unnecessary extra information, which is not true. which gets distilled into the community, which then surrounds all the true information. But I've also dealt with you because I've turned you from someone who is active and passionate and you've become passive. You're waiting for the sources to tell you what's going on. And now it's all these people behind the shadows who've got the information. And rather than you trying to be analytical and piece it together and be like, I think this could be true and this isn't. And thank you, Mr. Source, but I don't believe you this time. You sort of get turned around. And I think it's very simple, but it's practically free. and if you alongside that if you just flood disinformation into the community you'll do a wonderful job of making things very difficult and you know you look at the 20 and back story right yeah um i think there's a real conversation to be had about a secret space program for sure of course there is like if i'm going to build space technology and you know we should have the art mission are you telling me the united states televised their best space technology ahead of World War III? Are you kidding me? This is nonsense. That's crazy. The reality is, have people been to Mars? They'd be like, oh, that's crazy. It's like, don't write it off. No. You know, like 20, 30 years into the future of our technology will exist somewhere today. But I'm going to write it off now because of Corey Goode and Gaia, because that's the 20 and back stuff is so ridiculous. It's so insane. Exactly. And all that stuff has a unique effect in the United Kingdom where anything that's on the Discovery Channel is immediately unacceptable, you know. So, like, there's this kind of weird dynamic there. But the other thing which I see every day, unfortunately, and it's really sad, is, like, just researchers turning against each other and getting so aggressive. And it's, you know, I guess sometimes maybe it's warranted. Maybe there need to be conversations to be had. But, like, it's the easiest way to destroy a community. It's so crazy. you've never seen a topic where it's just like we're covering it should be us against the world you know it's like we're covering like these stigmatized flying objects that point to some greater hopefully on some level aspirational metaphysical truth even if there are obviously dark elements to it and you just have all this like petty politics of like you've covered this this was just yeah just whatever well it's all good yeah it causes a lot of issues as well because now we all look like a bunch of nut jobs who can't we all look crazy which then you're you're falling prey to the manufactured division you even i think in this video that you did was just amazing you cited the cia playbook which was this counter intel handbook around manufacturing infighting exactly and you look at ufo twitter and it's like it might as well be like the real world like mtv is like you know it's like a reality show and it's like you're talking about them again what should be like the most sacred stuff and it ends up in this just you know lord of the flies i think what's happened over the last 10 years is ufos have kind of gone mainstream it's interesting now every time i speak to someone about like i'm going full time with the channel soon that's amazing i'm so excited you should be and so inevitably you know conversation comes up and people like so what are you going to do and i'm like well i've got a channel about ufos you know people they don't respond by saying like what are you on about normally what they struggle with is like why would the government keep it secret and how do they keep it secret genuinely like serious questions you got to figure out most people are now like interested but there's this next stage now where how do you help those people like grapple with all of this stuff and the same people who did the first you know kind of movement of this aren't going to be the same people who do the next one and similarly after that different people because you need different types of evangelists for different types of audiences at different times so there is an inevitable life cycle as well and also specialties right like in the uk we really don't have that many people who talk about this topic um and actually people in the uk like i said you put something on the discovery channel we're going to be like that can't be true you know like it's it's a default there's this kind of snobbish attitude so you need specialties you need different types of communities you need different people at different stages and we need to be able to learn from each other and not feel paranoid that i haven't cited the exact place i got this thing from you know do your best but we need to be cohesive as a unit otherwise the psyop personnel from that manual you mentioned yeah so i agree uh apparently king charles is super into ufos did have you heard anything about that or yeah from my boy charlie up the road yeah I don't know. I mean, there's a connection there with Louis Mountbatten, who was his uncle, I think. Okay. I think there's a story that something landed on one of his properties. Wow. And his gardener saw it. And he vouched for his gardener and put a report in. The royal family is interesting because of the connections I was talking about earlier about this. These elites who ran the intelligence agencies, right? Many of them are sirs, they're knighted. The UK is a very different beast to the United States. We still have deeply systemic issues when it comes to hierarchies. We have a House of Lords and a monarchy. It's really weird. So the reason I'm mentioning that is where you might perceive the royal family to be this kind of little spectacle, actually they're deeply integrated into politics. most legislation that goes through our parliament they can veto it and review it and ensure it doesn't apply to them and there have been claims that different people have been briefed about certain topics I can't remember the details of those I think if you're the king I would be unbelievably bored so I'd be interested in peering into this I'd be like I've already got all the power everyone's sycophantic around me about who I am what am I going to do to stimulate my curiosity to you. So I hope he's into it. But I, you know, if he was to say anything about it, I wouldn't trust him. That's an interesting, it's like the boredom theory of blue-blooded elite UFO interest is an interesting thread. Like Lichtenstein. That's right. I was just thinking, yeah, Hans out. It's funny, my girlfriend, she was reading this book by Shirley MacLaine, this famous actor out here in LA. She's, you know, this very spiritual figure, kind of new agey, but really thoughtful as well. And she was writing, she wrote a book called Going Within, and she was writing about being in like some government office in D.C., and she's with Claiborne Pell, who is super into, you know, UFOs, paranormal stuff, and actually happens to be Biden's, he's a senator, and he was Biden's advisor. and it's Claiborne Pell, the Royal... Pell, you got to raise a bell. Senator Pell and Bud Hopkins is there as well and I think has an experiencer there who she claims that she was part of some alien hybrid program or whatever and her fetus went missing three months in, which is a common thing if you talk to people who are interested in the abduction thread. And then the Royal Prince of Lichtenstein is there as well. And she's just writing about this casually. Yeah. And, you know, and then apparently he convened the Royal Prince of Liechtenstein, Hans Adams, convened all of the Roswell witnesses as well. And he was friends with Whitley Schrieber. And he was just really interested in UFOs. I think he's still alive. I think he's in his early 80s or something. Was he the guy who was financially supporting the Lone Stars group? You know, the sort of post-ORSAC group of scientists? They had some sort of sponsor who seemed to be associated with that area. What is the Lone Star? Who was part of that? So after the Allsat program was, you know, they were constantly going to get funding. They didn't get funding, going to get funding. So they all, they really wanted to continue discussing things. And so they formed this informal group, which is called the Lone Stars. This is Jacques Vallée, Eric Davis, Hal Putoff, all the same people. Ed May, who might have been part of that group, he was a famous remote viewer involved in the Stargate program. He talks about working with the royal prince of Liechtenstein, Hans Adams. So, yeah, I don't know if that's connected with Lone Star. But I think he seems very interested in exotic tech, A, and B, you know, alien UFO phenomena. And I think he believes that Jesus is going to – it's eschatological at its core. Like he believes Jesus will show up on a flying saucer or something. That would be a great end to it all. Finally, yeah. Yeah, I'm back. yeah okay okay well uh i don't know where he would have got that from but i guess if the synthesis of of two very different things put together i think there are people who think that you know that jesus going up on the cloud in the book of acts is a you know it's a flying saucer or something and it's interesting i mean what's fascinating is he's like the most influential person of all time but we just don't know much about him jesus yeah yeah i mean well you know you have all these riddles and parables that he spoke in and stuff. But did he speak in the book? That's unclear. That's the whole thing. It's hard to say. The distance and time and everything. For sure. I mean, I think he was a real historical figure. 100%. Yeah. And then, yeah, I don't know. Exactly. From there, I think he had an impact and he was interesting. But what we can filter through that is limited. Yeah. Is what I would say to the Prince of Fiction sign if he was here. But my guess would also be, if we were in the room with Jesus, He would be notable in any room he's in. He would probably have, like, a pretty interesting energy and have a disproportionate impact, you know? He wouldn't just be, like, a dude in the corner, you know? Yeah, I mean, the charisma that you need to have that impact is huge. Yeah. Or at least the capabilities that you would need, right? Sometimes people are that charismatic, but they have an ability to do things which really puts them at the center of the room. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So where do you think all this stuff goes, this modern, crazy UFO disclosure push. Obviously, there are cynical motives and intents behind it and weird elements and factions all fighting and vying for it. And then there's also something very hopeful and aspirational, to me at least, that comes from it, which is this bulldozer into the past paradigm of kind of materialist reductionism, which to me leads to kind of nihilism. And so what do you think happens? There are positive possibilities and negative possibilities. Yeah, I see. I don't know that these are the things that are going to happen, but I've recently been just really focused on this tension of two interpretations of what's going on right now. And it comes back to that Collins Elite video, actually, where you've got, you know, there are these Christian people who believe the end times started in the 1900s. But then there are simultaneously these new age people who believe that we're going through a transition. and you know one person's apocalypse might be another person's like the world is changing and you know like a pasolka says revelation it's like it's it's a revelation it's like new information is coming in so how we view the future i think is is really important the lens that we bring to it through which we interpret this incredibly mysterious thing is going to be pretty decisive So, you know, I do worry about the religious component and our inability to cautiously delineate between what people have experienced and dogma. But I hope, I hope that we're going through that slow evolution and that we may be on the verge of something immensely positive. You know, the cheesy phrase is always darkest before the dawn. It's getting real dark in the moment. and you know my two hopes are one that there'll be a dawn and that this is going somewhere and we'll discover what that is in some beautiful way at moments where I lose hope in that I remind myself of the astonishing testimony of life after death and you know Leslie Kane's amazing book Surviving Death is a huge rock of comfort for me at times where you know whether it's on a personal level or on a global level you feel kind of hopeless is uh you know i'm a big believer that all of this has real meaning and uh you know what we're experiencing here is this physical reality but there's a lot more going on um very vague answer to your question but those are the sort of the pillars i stand on to try and navigate whatever's coming because it's short term it seems kind of negative yeah fair enough do you have do you have a sort of a uh base case understanding of what is going on. Obviously, we talked about, you know, the flying objects themselves, but there's obviously this sort of abduction phenomena as well, and kind of what seems like this bizarre intergenerational breeding hybridization program. Yeah. What's that about? Yeah, yeah. I think that that's a really important point, actually, is disclosure. How much of that information can even come out? Because, you know, we've already covered, like, there's this set course menu new elezando many years ago he said you can't do a 10 course menu all at once you have to do it piece by piece so we've had there's something in the air we don't know what it is but we've had um some of these things have crashed it's very likely not russia or china we've got the bodies there's a secret program it's sensitive we've been through like five or six courses uh you know one of the big things that people have hinted at is information about like hybridization. Yep. It sounds wild. So I have like a notion, which is like my notebook where I keep all my stuff. And I was just dropping, whenever I'd hear information about hybrids, I'd be like, I don't want to forget about this, but I'm really not interested in this wacky topic. Just drop it in that folder. And, you know, eventually I went back in there and I was like, oh, whoa, hold on a second. There's like a lot here. One of the interesting things was how many different people seem to have been kind of warned off of talking about the hybrid issue. So DeLong, when he came out, He was like, there's a big genetic component to this. And he said, you know, I asked my advisor these questions, these questions. But the moment I asked them about hybrids, they were like, went quiet. And I wasn't supposed to talk about that. Yeah, the same thing with Valet's journals. He recounts a conversation with Diana Pasolka, where Pasolka is basically explaining that they, I don't know, Tim Taylor, who is it, is saying, like, you shouldn't be talking about the hybrid thing. and then you've got John Ramirez who in 2022 made comments for the effect that everyone is waiting for Lou Elizondo to talk about hybrids like it's coming there's this kind of idea that we've got this like process that we have to go through in terms of which conversations happen when and so you know I start thinking about the hybrid thing and very quickly you begin to realize why it would be at the very least a late stage topic and then you might even realize maybe it's too dangerous to even talk about it so the the hybridization thing raises questions because if we can breed with non-human entities does that mean that we're related so suddenly you've got really confusing piece of information which immediately leads to another really big question about who we are next you've got questions about our religious texts and what they really mean so now you're destabilizing religion as well the really big concern here is we have been through and right now are also going through moments where we question the human dignity of the people next to us so in world war ii everything that happened in terms of the holocaust was basically about trying to exterminate a specific lineage right a specific group of people and their dna from the planet we see similar things happening right now you know arguably in gaza and israel you've you've got questions there about you know genocide and about the racial components there what i find very interesting is in the secret machines books the non-fiction you've got one of the advisors just outright telling lavander and de long you know genocides may be a function of the phenomenon it may be trying to eliminate certain genetic strands for its own purposes that's coming from it could be mccaslin it could be general hayden we don't know which one but one of the advisors said this and it was in the book and they were like we need to share this information as part of this project so you've got this huge question here about what is going on in terms of race one of the fascinating links to this is uh you know when the bledsoe's had their experience and uh ryan bledsoe recounts a conversation that he had a lot of people have issues with ryan bledsoe that's fine that's okay but he recounts a conversation he had with jim semi van i think is very instructive. Semi-Fan purportedly told him, you know, we think you're hybrids. The reason you're having these experiences is because you may have more non-human DNA or a certain strand of non-human DNA. You read Lou Elizondo's book, Imminent, it's in there. He says it seems to be that people with Cherokee blood and DNA have more experiences and also are more inclined to go towards a certain type of work, right? So they end up in this kind of government, UFO mystery solving thing based on their genetic lineage. So all sorts of different information is coming from places indicating that, and it's, you know, we can't take this as fact because it may well be the case that this is real, that there is study showing that as you change the genetic profile of an individual, certain things happen. Maybe you gain certain capabilities, which will be very interesting. But there's another side to this, which is whether it's true or whether it's a mythology, I tend to, I doubt it's just a mythology, But either way, can we handle that information right now, given where we are, given the geopolitical conflicts, given our inability to see each other as human beings? And it's so painful. I mean, like, I'm not in pain. I'm here with you in California. It's great, you know. But it's just looking at what's happening around us right now. You think if we were to reveal that some people on the planet have more non-human DNA whilst other people have less, that creates a spectrum by which you can judge whether a person is more or less human. Are you telling me you want to release that information into the general population right now? No, it doesn't seem like a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much data indicating that, you know, it's anecdotal data, sure. But from this group of people who have been releasing information, that's one of the things that's kind of being hinted at. It's anecdotal, but it's also from guys who are very high up at the CIA, especially when it comes to people like Jim Samyvan. And it's funny, as you were talking, I'm almost thinking like, okay, so you're an average person. You hear somebody high up at the CIA say, you know, something about alien-human hybrids. And you are totally disenchanted with the government. You're skeptical of everything. You know, we just went through all this Epstein stuff or whatever. And you're thinking they're just, you know, they're going to lie to me. and so um uh you're going to be totally skeptical and think that that's just like a distraction if you're the intel person who's super savvy you're going to know that you saying that will hit like you know some part of the population who kind of wants to you know is interested in this and wants to read between the lines and like learn more and um but a lot of people are just going to dismiss you out of hand and so you might even knowing that release this you might be like the person who comes out becomes the spokesperson for this stuff. And then it kind of sits there, marinates, trickles through society and kind of, you know, it becomes more acceptable to talk about five, 10 years later. And it like it seeps in that one academic gets interested. And that's how this thing sort of gets legitimized and happens. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's only a psyop. That means, like, they know that them saying it sort of, like, makes you immune because you don't believe them anyways. Exactly. Yeah, so discrimination of information in a non-direct kind of way. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. You know, the... And they don't, they, a lot of these guys, you know, some of them, I'm sure, have counterintel backgrounds. And I'm sure some of them have done some very unsavory things in their past. but they're also pretty savvy and they don't they don't want to be looked at as total sicko fans in the future like they'd i think they'd rather not 10 20 30 years down the line especially if they held high positions they don't want to be looked at as like you just bold-faced lied to the american public yeah you know as some high up intel person so i don't know it's very it's interesting i find it's also like that whole strand of thinking is interesting in terms of geopolitics. DeLong, again, early interviews before anyone knew whose advisors were, he was talking about how some of the things that we did in Iraq may have been related to certain groups of people there who were connected with certain non-human entities and were helping them proliferate. And that that may have been one of the motivations, which sounds like a... What? I know, it sounds like a mythology, but that's one of the things that he was sharing before he was suddenly exposed as literally having these people speak to him. But, you know, one of the things I You know, so many of our wars don't make any sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are we really doing? What's the real purpose of them? Yeah, well, they make a little more sense through the kind of lens of, you know, acquiring oil and resources and geopolitics. So, like, why would you go into Iran for, you know, a nuclear program that's never really seemed to manifest? They don't really seem like a paper tiger, you know, as far as actually being able to have those capabilities. but then does it put a lot of you know pressure on china and make the whole world more dependent on american natural gas yes it does and then you kind of view like american foreign policy through that hermeneutic over the last 70 years and it starts to make more sense yeah but maybe there's some even weirder kind of you know lens that you can put on it because if you believe that this is going on and we've had i mean we didn't even talk about this this again another idea that's trickled out there is we have a relationship with some of these beings. And if that's a thing, like we talked about a Herman, I forget his name, the German guy, the Nazi guy who claimed that they had a relationship. Herman Orberth? Oh, Herman Elberth. Yeah, yeah. Herman Orberth and, you know, who is it on our side who may have had a relationship? But you're telling me we have a relationship and that's not impacting our geopolitics? Yeah. I think it's probably the key epistemic foundation that we would have to understand what's going on. So, but again, that's mystery world we can't see that very clearly but if this is going somewhere that's going to be a reality yeah and you talk about you know historically you have kind of mystic truth seeker individuals and then you have kind of the canonical establishment you know religious institution that kind of determines what's acceptable as far as what you can believe and not and so this brings up a really interesting question that you've covered do you think the vatican knows anything about UFO. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely I do. And I think that the, the role of the Vatican is hinted at by many people that I would respect. It kind of comes up and then it disappears, right? No one wants to focus too much on the Vatican. Um, so we'll keep it short, but I, I think, um, what is, you know, what is it that makes an institution last for a long time, 2000 years? There's some other institutions like I think Egyptian empires have lasted longer, but the key thing is you have to resist change you have to resist revolution and uh the vatican did and has done an outstanding job on that um you know there's many doctrinal things that came up and they dealt with that and they were suppressing all sorts of things that would come up for a long time and eventually you have the reformation which in turn leads to the enlightenment which in turn leads to you know like a new form of government over here in america these are all revolutions and demonstrably the Vatican conspiring with the monarchies and the Knights of Malta, who lost Malta because of Napoleon during the Napoleonic Revolution. All of them were like, we nearly got wiped off the map, you know, like late 1700s, nearly completely destroyed all of this old power. So afterwards, they colluded a thing called the Congress of Vienna, 1812 or something. 1815. 1815. You were ready for this. Klaus von Metternich. the class von Mennonick who's that he oversaw the congress of Vienna I'm glad you're here the guy on top underneath him attending were the various monarchies and uh the Vatican the Knights of Malta and the idea was like look we don't like each other like before Napoleon these people weren't getting on but we better get on because when a revolution happens in southern Italy that's Austro-Hungaria's problem so I'm going to send people down to help with that let's systematize our response to change and that is just a reality historically so the vatican has always tried to deal with revolutions what's the ultimate revolution the reality that the biblical narrative which constrains the information especially not even just the biblical narrative but the doctrine that's built on top of it which constrains our interpretation of these frankly bizarre events could be blown open by the next revolution so just as a form of if the vatican has a personality it's conservative now you can look at very specific instances where you can see this at work great ones fatima i went there recently and uh did a tour and it was really funny because i went and scheduled this tour with me and my girlfriend at the time and we went out to this lady and we spent about half an hour with her and eventually she was like you guys catholic and we're like no it's like what are you doing here you know everyone else that goes on this tour is a catholic um but we went around and she showed us exactly where all these events happened and everything and basically for those who don't know it's a 1917 kind of period in portugal place called fatima and these young children start to see strange beings this lady appears and you know no one else can really see this lady and the children keep saying she's appearing and everyone's like, yeah, whatever, you know. But she appears so many times, the town starts to get a little bit stirred up by it, by their stories. And eventually she says, there's going to be a huge miracle that's going to happen on this date, this place. 70,000 people turn up, and the newspapers document this, and all the history we have shows this. They turn up in a field, and eventually everyone's thinking like, am I going to stay here? Nothing's happening, so they're getting ready to go. And the clouds pop, and there's this thing in the sky, And the sources that we have from lawyers and doctors and, you know, very serious people describe it as a silvery disk. Okay. It's hovering there and it's suddenly doing this and it's going there and it's doing that. It's whizzing around at one point. It comes down. It seems like it's about to hit them and it goes back. And then suddenly the clouds come over and, you know, the sun kind of reappears from behind them. Okay. So the Vatican basically says this was the sun flying around. Okay. People said they saw a disk. But for the Vatican, that's kind of dangerous. Are you telling me there's a silver disc in the sky? I'm probably going to stop focusing on all my Hail Marys and start reading some books, you know? So now there's this tendency to constrain the information. You also have this with Culpino. Specifically, though, on that, I think the Vatican confiscated one of the prophecies from the orphans or whatever that, you know, made the prophecy around, you know, the son or the Virgin Mary showing up, which turned into this sort of sun in the sky. But I think the prophecy was more complex than it sort of portrayed historically, and it was written down, and that piece of paper was literally confiscated by the Vatican. It's fascinating. Yes. Yeah, the secrets of Fatima, right, which is a wonderful way to brand it. Yeah. And then you have the magenta crash probably being held by the Vatican as well, or at least under the knowledge. I think it was held at the Cerate Bunker, which is outside of Rome, But it was the information about it was back channeled through Pope Pius XII to FDR. And, yeah, you have other weird stuff, too. Like, I don't you cannot believe the Majestic 12 docs. I think they were probably some counterintel ploy. But clearly part of the stuff in there is real. And there's one document around Francis Spellman being given access to the Roswell materials. Francis Spellman is deeply tied in with the Vatican. And was he a cardinal, actually? He was a cardinal and the grand protector of the Knights of Malta. Yeah, there you go. And so he's supposed to get access to the Roswell materials immediately, but this is in the Majestic 12 documents. And then there's documentation of Bishop McIntyre, another guy pretty high up in the Vatican ecosystem. And he's hanging out around Edwards Air Force Base in 1954. This is not even MJ-12. This is real records of this Bishop McIntyre hanging around Edwards Air Force Base in 54 when Eisenhower is rumored to do his deal with the aliens around allowing medical experiments to be done among the human population. So very strange. It is. And the general Catholic influence in America is huge. you know, in a video that will be released today on my channel, we talk about this. Just, again, looking at the American Republic when it was founded, it was founded on a completely new philosophy of how government would work, where church and state were separated. And some of the founding fathers were very worried about Catholic influence in America because, you know, generally the influence in Europe had been to suppress, okay, and not to allow democracy and the free flow of information. But they allowed Catholics, of course, that's the doctrine of America, right? I may not agree with you, but you're welcome here. over time the Jesuits founded many universities here at one point more than anybody else including Fordham University, Georgetown and that's a great way to influence a nation slowly you're doing great work with education, Catholic education has always been very good but now you have access to all the people who are coming up in the youth and you can take those who are devout Catholics and put them in very strategic positions and say well I know you were going to do seminary, I know you love the Bible but I really think you should get into intelligence. And that's one of the people who was the founding director of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Whoa. Yeah. No way. Because they pop up all over UFO lore. They're always, you know, somebody in a nuclear base sees something and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations shows up. Yeah, exactly. Says, you know, give me all the radar data. Shut up about this. Sign this NDA. Yeah. Okay. So the founding director? Carroll, I forget his first name, but the founding director of Air Force Office of Special Investigations was a devout Catholic who wanted to go to seminary and suddenly found himself in intelligence. And, of course, it's AFOSI, which is overseeing the very beginnings of the Collins Elite Theory, which begins to appear, which, you know, we've already discussed is ostensibly not necessarily the best theory to explain everything. It's kind of good. um so but catholics in general appear throughout the american intelligence establishment and there was a census that um i saw some data on where 33 percent of irish catholics had served in the military at some point 40 or 50 percent of the medal of honors that were awarded were awarded to to i think irish catholics or catholics these are these are really big swings in the data um now it's not to say that irish catholics are bad or anything i'm i'm irish which surprises people, but, you know, I'm not trying to say this race or this religion is bad. The point is the slow influence of this old world power, this top-down power from Europe over here in America has happened. And all it takes is, you know, if you have the Vatican who may have an interest in preventing that ultimate revolution, and they now manage to get people in positions of key power, AFOSI, different general CIA directors. I mean, the number of CIA directors who are Knights of Malta or Catholic is preposterously high. You get those people into the key functions. You've now essentially got a seat at the board of directors of the UFO issue. And all of your history and your intelligence apparatus can be leveraged by them as long as you have a symbiotic relationship where you both understand each other. Because the Vatican is, at its core, a vast network. It's one of the biggest organizations, probably the biggest one on the planet, with so many different networks, whether you're looking at the Jesuits, the Knights of Malta, Opus they um there's the pro deo intelligence network i mean at one point i tried to list them all and i thought this is going to take a long time to dig into all this stuff it's huge um so yeah i do think that the vatican knows more i do think that they've tried to reinterpret things but you know i wish another person i wish i could speak to is basalka yeah because there's differences here some catholics believe that we're going through what seems to be kind of like an evolutionary like it's very open, it's not that doctrinal and there are some who view themselves to be like a cataconic force with restraining the end times and their job is to prevent that final thing from happening whereas other people are like the final thing is going to happen, it's really good you know, so there's a mix Yeah, there's the imminentizing the eschaton crowd and then there's the, you know, let's restrain it and keep a lid on it and keep the institutions kind of intact Exactly. And it seems like people who believe both are in extremely high positions of power. So it's hard to say that the conspiracy just exists on the side of speeding up the apocalypse or just exists on the side of keeping the institutions intact. Or maybe those are the two seminal factions fighting or something. I don't know. Yeah, I think the control, I don't know how far it can really go. in terms of total control. And now, you know, you look at Pope Leo calling out Trump. It's interesting to me because prior to that, I was looking at Trump, I was seeing he attended Fordham University. He's consistently tried to get Catholics into the Secretary of Defense position. He's consistently pushed Catholics involved in strange networks onto the judiciary. You know, it's palpable. But is that just a public spat for other purposes? Is it real? Is it genuine? in recently uh was it pope francis was the last pope yeah i think he was trying to deal with the knights of maltra as well there was some conflict there about them maybe operation a little bit rogue he had to pull them in so you know as with all things you can't simply assume it's all one big thing it's the same thing i really struggle when people say uh you know the freemasons the jesuits they're all part of like one big operation and no it's clearly not and i think that the maybe the biggest fallacy of UFO research is we talk about Reagan like he spends all his time on UFOs and it's like they're realizing it's sub one percent and he really this geopolitics even Trump Trump really like if there's anything going on there the resorts international thing that's fascinating and I want to look into that but like my gut on that guy is he's not thinking deeply about UFOs you know he's a viable mode yeah he's just thinking about you know how to make things work and you I was thinking about geopolitics. But this was fascinating. I appreciate your time, Jason. It's been a lot of fun. It could go on for hours. But everybody should go check out your channel. How do they find you on YouTube? Just type in Jason Samosa. The channel's big enough now that you won't just find strange images of Jason Momoa as a Samosa. There you go. We've passed that stage. You've broken through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we reached a milestone. But you can find me there, and I'm on X as well. You do have the Jason Momoa facial hair, I will say. That's been a goal I've been working on for a while. I'm thrilled to hear you say that. That's going to go live, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Go cut that out. Oh, we won't. Awesome, man. Appreciate you. Thanks, Jesse. Cool. I'm out.