Words Matter: Meeting Trump’s Twisted Deviancy Halfway Is NOT The Answer for Dems

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Making solar simpler for your home. That's good energy. Visit goodenergy.co.uk 9 12 10 28 2 23 This is Deep State Radio. Coming to you direct from our Super Secret Studio in the third sub-basement of the MiG-10 and the third sub-basement of the Ministry of Snark in Washington, D.C. and from other undisclosed locations across America and around the world. Hello and welcome to DSR's Words Matter. I am here. I am David Rothkopf. I am welcoming into your lives Norm Ornstein from Washington where I think he's probably wearing his Lycra UFC suit so that he can enter the octagon on Sunday night in order to celebrate the birthday of the President of the United States. Is that not true, Norm? Actually, there's another reality which is I was tabbed to be a referee at one of the World Cup games. And they kept you out. They're going to deport me to Somalia. So, you know, it's... Well, I think actually they believe that anybody from Minnesota should be deported to Somalia. I actually think that's part of their policy. I do have to say the FIFA Peace Prize is looking a little tarnished these days. You know, FIFA has in the past been very vigilant about making sure that host countries that refuse to let different athletes or others associated with them come in have the games yanked from them. Instead, we've seen not just referees and others denied entry into the United States after they had proper documentation and visas, but athletes from countries, mostly, of course, brown or black athletes, strip searched and held for hours in detention as they came into the country. And what does the corrupt, grifting FIFA president who gave Trump the Peace Prize, as it were, in big quotes, same kind of quotes as in news after you say, Fox, do about it? Nothing. He says, hey, we're helpless. It's up to the governments. It wasn't true with other governments. And of course, we also know that FIFA has had what appears to be a sweetheart deal apartment in Trump Tower that has been largely unused for a very long time. So there's there's stuff going on here that my dog is very upset about. Well, your dog is a great political analyst. And OK, so well, look, you're absolutely right about FIFA, most corrupt organization in the world, totally a mafia organization, which is why Trump loves them and they love Trump. It's like crime families love each other. That's right. It's birds of the feather. The Gambinos beat the Castellanos and say, let's have a big dinner. But, you know, FIFA is not the most corrupt thing. I made a reference a moment ago to this thing that's happening at the White House on Sunday night, where thousands of people will gather in the White House lawn for a commercial event. The US has put $60 million into it to erect on the South lawn of the White House Trump's biggest direction in years. An octagon that has the beautiful advertisement on it, which I think captures everything about this moment from one of the sponsors of UFC. And it says on top of it, monster energy. And I was like, well, that's the Trump administration, ladies and gentlemen. It's loaded with that monster energy. But it's a commercial thing. Trump actually owns shares in the company that does the UFC stuff. They're advertising. They're handling all the promo, not the White House PR people. They're handling the promo. They're papering the house with people from the military, but not fat ones, because they don't like fat ones. And it's, you know, just an absolutely ridiculous desecration of the White House that would be more shocking if they weren't also building a golden ballroom, building a Trump arch, had just paved over the Rose Garden and so forth. But I'm just wondering, Norm, are you going or are you going to stay away because of the forecast of thunderstorms? I'd like to go, but I got to wash my hair that night. So, but, you know, let's unpack this a little bit. First, not only is it the biggest direction Trump has had in years, but if you did a miniaturized Lego model of it, it would be the biggest direction Trump has had in years. That aside, and sorry for the... We're such children. We're such children. You and I are... In humor, yes. Yeah, we're infantile. And I apologize to our listeners. Norm usually operates at a much higher level. This is third grade, and usually we're around fifth grade. Yes, we're up to fifth grade usually. Let's note that 60 million is probably a gross understatement of how much taxpayer money will go into this, not to mention the amount of taxpayer money that will go into the hundreds, if not thousands of people who are there on the government payroll to protect the White House. Let us also note that this crass short-fingered Bulgarian to... Credit. Credit. Credit Spy Magazine. Which I will credit Kurt Anderson and Spy Magazine for that. And I should note just as an aside that one issue of Spy Magazine, Kurt Anderson, had almost the entire magazine that had me quoted in story after story just to say, well, it's a parody of this notion that I was quoted all the time. My sister worked at Spy Magazine. It's missed. Very much missed. Anyhow, you can bet that some of the revenue that they're going to get from this in this commercial enterprise, not just from the shares that Trump has, but in a kickback, will go right into the pocket of the Trump crime family. And even worse than all of that is he's talking about leaving this horrific erection in place and making it permanent. So the amount of... If... If... And let's hope when we recapture the presidency and the rest of government that they restore the West Wing, that they take down whatever other monstrosities he's put up, and we will have to pay a ton of money for that, but we cannot leave this Atlantic City, Las Vegas, low rent glitz in place if we have pride as a nation. Yeah, no, no. They're so... You know, he... When he brought it up, he said, well, the Eiffel Tower was built for an exposition, but they left it up. He said, this could be like the Eiffel Tower, but consistent with your earlier joke, it's kind of like a flaccid version of the Eiffel Tower. It's kind of drooped over all the way. Yeah, see, Peronis... Oh, my God. We're down to second grade level now. We're down to second grade. They don't know what Peronis is. That's sophisticated. What do you mean? There are advertisements on television all the time? Yeah, it's really true. And I like when it comes on, I would cross my legs. It's like, oh, my God. But, you know, the television has come to this. But let me ask you a serious question. I'm going to make one of those segues because I'm a master moderator at these things. You are really good at this. Yeah, but I want to get to something about this. Trump's affection for UFC and for boxing goes back years and years and years. He likes violent sports. In fact, you may recall that the last time he was... He thought he was going to negotiate a settlement to war in Iran. And we can talk about that later. He was at a UFC match in Miami with Marco Rubio. And he's done this for a long time. And you've got to say, well, why is he so drawn to this, to this violent sport where people, men are sort of half dressed and kicking the crap out of each other. And he loves professional wrestling too. And he sort of conducts his foreign policy, as we've seen with Iran, a little bit like UFC fighters or professional wrestlers, you know, conduct themselves where there's a lot of bluster and bravado. And there's very little real risk. And, you know, the outcome is usually fixed. And, you know, like his Venezuela thing, which was a complete fake, right? But... Whether you're an electrician, baker or builder, your van says a lot about your business. The all-electric Kia PV5 cargo helps you make the right impression. Stylish design, smart practical features, adaptable cargo space, plus in-vehicle power sockets for your everyday tools. And it's already a multiple award winner, including International Van of the Year 2026. Search Kia PV5 today. Kia, movement that inspires. It goes to something deeper. And, you know, I was on the show of my friend Jen Welch, who does the I've Had It podcast. And we started talking about this, and Jen has always been really to the point. And, you know, she notes, you know, Trump puts out all these things where he's half naked, surrounded by half naked men. Yes. And he's got this kind of subtext of gayness. Not that he was wrong with being gay, but, you know, he is anti-LGBT. And yet, almost everything, like he was talking about Jackson Dart, the New York giant quarterback. And he was talking about his big, luscious thighs. And I was like, what the heck is going on here? And, you know, I started putting this together. And it's like UFC, Jackson Dart, weird AI slop where Trump is naked, surrounded by naked men. And even back into Epstein, where these perverted men are like, want to be around young girls because they just don't feel comfortable around, you know, grown-up women. That there is something. You know, MAGA, and, you know, they talk about masculinity all the time. Paxton went after Talarika's masculinity. You know, earlier today, the guy I call Kung Fu plumber Mark Wayne Mullen, you know, started going after Mom Donnie. And I just start to think MAGA is a cult for people with small dicks. And I'd like your comment. Let's also keep in mind that a significant number of the pardoned January 6th rioters and thugs have now been convicted of pedophilia or other related sex crimes. So there's something larger about all of this. I think you're absolutely right. And some of them were with young girls and some of them were with young boys. And I don't mean I'm not trying to make light of it. It's just such a constant theme that it's deeply weird. Well, and I do believe that a part of this is a homoerotic fantasy that he has. A part of it is he is so insecure that trying to portray himself as this tough guy, this guy who could get into the ring and beat almost anybody, is a reflection of the fact that he is soft and weak. And he wants to surround himself with people who he sees as tough and who praise him for being tough as well. But they take it to extreme. Katie Miller, Stephen Miller's wife, is always talking about like what a man's man, Stephen Miller is. We've got eyes. We can see. There is, by the way, a country song out now about Stephen Miller that I recommend to everybody on Instagram. That middler actually reposted it. It is the best country song I've ever seen. But, you know, having said that, I also think that the boxing, the MMA, all of this stuff reflects his sadistic streak as well. He loves to see others pound people into submission, blood flying. He gets a thrill out of that. That's not just homoerotic. It's a reflection of his own sadism. So there's plenty of that to go. It's very common, you know, posturing in sort of weak, impotent, threatened leaders who try to rise to high places to acquire power they don't have within them. And, you know, it goes back in his, you know, comatose was one of Rome's worst emperors. And he would go around wearing a lion's skin or he would hold gladiatorial things where he had a sword and the people he fought all had wooden swords. So he would look like it was a big, big, big, big man. And, you know, we've got stories about other Roman emperors and people like this throughout history. Even, you know, Hitler had some weird spots about this. And I just, there is underneath Trump and Trumpism and MAGA serious psychological problems. And, you know, people can choose any lifestyle they want. But what his problem is, when you've got insecurities or you've got doubts or you've got feelings you don't want to acknowledge and you translate that into something that's cruel and hurts other people, that's just grotesquely inappropriate. And, of course, what we've seen over and over again in a related fashion is these fundamentalist preachers or other MAGA types railing against pedophilia and against homosexuality, who then get caught raping small boys. So they're, they obviously have, have that suppressed to a degree and they take it out, not just by denying themselves, but by going after others before succumbing to the worst kinds of crimes. Well, and it's, you know, today I was, I was scrolling around as one does. And I saw, you know, a number of people showing a poster for a conference that's going to be held in Tennessee in September called Muscular Christianity. And, and, and, you know, it says equipping the church for spiritual warfare. And, you know, you see it in a lot of what is, you know, these are the same people who are, who are saying women should be trad wives. Women should be submissive. They like women who go out there and promote as Erica Kurtz organization does. You know, this idea that men are in charge and women should do what they say. They are there, they're the incels of this world, like, you know, Shapiro and these other characters. And it's just, how did we come to this moment where all of these sort of different personality defects coalesced into a nationwide movement? So that is a really interesting and important question in a whole host of ways. And first I'll circle back to something you said many times, which is Daniel Patrick Moynihan's defining deviancy down. The fact that you can say anything now, and there is no sense of shame, no pushback, and we keep defining what is deviant down to a point where nothing is off limits. That's a part of it. Then you look at the expansion of social media where people who both were ashamed before, if they held these thoughts, wouldn't speak because they would be isolated and vilified. Now can easily find a larger community. And when that larger community includes the president of the United States, it gives them even more of an impetus to go out and say and do vile things. And how we get out of that, I am not sure. We do know that, you know, through the course of American history at least, we have ups and downs in terms of morality. I, you know, watch a lot of Turner classic movies. You look at the movies from the early 1930s, and they were body and suggestive and often lecherous, and almost anything goes in a lot of those movies. And then we get the backlash and a backlash such that as you watch movies from the late thirties and into the forties, married couples who can't be in a double bed. They can't be in a bed. They have to have their feet on the ground. The use of the word pregnant was pretty much banned from films until the early 1960s. And so you get these backlashes, but I don't know if we're going to have a backlash that will affect this kind of homophobia, transphobia, racism, nativism, naked hatred. This gets to a really important, really, really important issue and one that I think is actually kind of controversial, even among Democrats, even among people who are listening to this podcast. And that is, there are a lot of people out there offering prescriptions for how Democrats should proceed. And interestingly, there are a wide range of issues, economic issues primarily, but also some foreign policy issues where there is actually a broad national consensus or a broad national majority in support of them, 60, 70 percent, whether it's healthcare or taxes, we've talked about this. That's actually not an area, people say, well, those may sound lefty or they may sound socialist. It's actually what everybody wants. When people say there is a tension in American politics, it's not around those issues. It's actually around cultural issues. And so you've got a lot of Democrats saying, well, we should compromise. Let's not defend the LGBT community. Let's not defend the trans community. There was an article in The New York Times this week by a guy named, I think, Zahid Jelani saying, the problem the Democrats have is they haven't found a middle position on a woman's right to choose. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? A right is a right. There is no middle position on a right. A woman should have bodily autonomy. And the same is true with these other things. I think it is possible for Democrats to make careful choices about how they present what they're doing, but not to give up on core principles. If somebody loves somebody, they should be allowed to be with that person. If somebody makes a choice about how they want to handle their body, whether it has to do with an abortion or it has to do with their gender, they should be allowed to do that. If somebody is of a different color, they should have equal rights and opportunities as we fought the past 100 years to establish. And I really have a problem with these kind of centrist Democrats who are saying, oh, no, that's too woke. Don't take the bait from the Republicans. If they want to go and do stuff to trans people, we can't let that distract us. And I'm like, no, we have to. That's the point. The point is, there is right and wrong. There's a certain morality. And this is what defines us as being different from them. And, and honestly, I think the vast majority of Americans agree on these things. But sometimes in some of these churches and in some of their schools, they get brow beaten by the other side into taking another position. And I've just, I've just, you know, where do you come out on how Democrats ought to handle the culture wars? I want to cut my energy bill. Can solar panels help? Yes, that's good energy. And they'll help lower my carbon emissions too. That's good energy. And I can get paid for the energy I don't use. Yes, that's good energy. And you have 25 years experience in house engineers and a five star rating on trust pilot. Yes, that's good energy. Sounds great. Now, one more thing. The solar panels battery is another hardware. It's all quality tech that's built to last. Of course. Making solar simpler for your home. That's good energy. Visit GoodEnergy.co.uk I want to cut my energy bill. Can solar panels help? Yes, that's good energy. And they'll help lower my carbon emissions too. That's good energy. And I can get paid for the energy I don't use. Yes, that's good energy. And you have 25 years experience in house engineers and a five star rating on trust pilot. Yes, that's good energy. energy. Sounds great! One more thing, the solar panel's battery is another hardware. It's all quality tech that's built to last. Of course! Making solar simpler for your home. That's good energy. Visit goodenergy.co.uk. I want to cut my energy bill. Can solar panels help? Yes, that's good energy. And they'll help lower my carbon emissions too. That's good energy. And I can get paid for the energy I don't use. Yes, that's good energy. And you have 25 years experience in-house engineers and a five star rating on trust pilots. Yes, that's good energy. Sounds great! One more thing, the solar panel's battery is another hardware. It's all quality tech that's built to last. Of course! Making solar simpler for your home. That's good energy. Visit goodenergy.co.uk. Completely with you on this one. And I think when you try and soft peddle them or deny basic human rights, that you give them even more traction. You don't give them less. You're suggesting that you were wrong. And that is a big mistake. But I think there's another way to go about this. And I actually wrote a column on this in the Contrarian back several months ago, where the focus was on the word and the concept of decency. And some of it came from, I think, some of you that you referred to. I know MAGA people. I have relatives. I have friends. Not that I'm close to them anymore, but who are MAGA. But who, if I had an emergency in the house and I had to leave my dog with them. Or I had to, if I had a child around, have my child stay with them. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute. They're decent people in a whole host of ways, except for their blind spots and others. And if we appeal to fundamental decency, then I think you can make, we can develop traction and make a difference. And it ought to be just along the lines of what you said. If people want to love somebody and marry them and live with them and be productive people in a society, let them go ahead and do it. If somebody wants bodily autonomy instead of leading to death in a hospital because you've set up laws saying that they cannot save somebody until they're in the final stages when it's too late, then you are not being a decent human being. This is about decency. And the same is true. I mean, there are some difficult issues. I recognize that, for example, trans people playing in sports, which affects a small group of people, and you want them to be able to fulfill their own ambitions and all of that. But that raises some questions that are not for me entirely or cut. I mean, my own feeling is let them play where their own identity takes them. But I understand the balance that can be struck here when you have people whose bodies are different. Having said that, it's almost like saying that somebody who is born with super twitch muscles and therefore through genetics is going to be faster than somebody else shouldn't be allowed to compete because it's not fair to the others who weren't born that way. If somebody basically from birth may have male genitalia, but believes that this person is in fact deep inside a woman or somebody is born with female genitalia, but believes that this person is a man, is that wildly different from the fact that I'm short and can't dunk and somebody else is tall and can? I mean, you know, so these are difficult questions. And clearly, you don't want to get sidetracked into making them the questions in which people decide and vote. But if you can change this into a reality that the people who are on the other side of this who are pushing hatred are indecent, then we can move to the other ways in which they're indecent, which is openly taking away healthcare from people, forcing huge numbers into medical bankruptcies in which they are taking homeless people, some of whom are homeless because they have serious mental illnesses, others because they don't have jobs. And you're saying, we are going to take away the places where you reside as homeless people and leave you with no place to go. That's indecent instead of looking for better solutions. And we need to do that along with affordability. But the fact that we have leaders in Congress, and I saw a reference to this, I think in a political article today about the divisions among Democrats in Congress, where the leaders just want to keep saying affordability over and over and over again, and not focus on the fact that they're stealing our democracy, the fact that they're stealing our money, the fact that they're stealing other people's money, the fact that they are distorting our foreign policy so that they can build golf courses and office buildings and malls and casinos in other countries, that we should not be speaking out about those things at least as much and not focusing on the indecency of what they stand for. I think it's a huge mistake. It is a huge mistake. It manifests itself in multiple ways. You may have seen a story a couple of days ago in the Washington Post. I was unwrapping some fish, and I saw that. And I talked about two Democrats, one of whom was Tom Swazzy from Long Island or wherever he's from, who said they want to get every Democrat to sign a pledge saying that they're a capitalist, not a socialist. And I was like, oh, for fuck's sake. First of all, they don't realize that for a generation born or grown up since 1991, when communism ended. Let's be clear, that was 35 years ago. And so if you take everybody who was 15, and under at that point, everybody in the US who's 50 and under, socialism doesn't mean the Soviet Union. Socialism means Sweden and Norway and Holland, right? And they see societies that provide people with healthcare, with education, with a social safety net, with training, and they say, why can't we be more equitable? Why can't we treat our communities with more responsibility? And that's why there is warmth to these ideas. But these people come up and they say, well, no, we can't use these words. And we're out of touch with what's going on in the 50 and under crowd. But what they're also really saying, and this gets to the point that I want to make, is they want corporate donations. Because corporate leaders and billionaires and oligarchs want people to maintain the embrace of untrammeled capitalism that really got its big boost under Ronald Reagan. And because it has given them huge advantages, which have driven inequality in the United States, and created corporate welfare programs that make all the welfare programs that we've got for ordinary people look puny by comparison. And what I'm getting at is that on economic issues, but also on these social issues, what they want is to go back to a system where white male Christians felt like they had an advantage, like the system was rigged in their favor. And what they want and what the oligarchs want is a system that's rigged for them and keeps down everybody else. And they wouldn't feel they needed that if they weren't threatened by the idea of equality and equal opportunity. And that's the core issue here. These people are afraid that a diverse, vibrant society that gives everybody a chance to succeed and takes care of, and feels a compulsion to take care of everybody equally well, is a threat to what they thought they were entitled to, which was a kind of a free ride because they were born white or born male. And just to me, we've got the battle in the United States is to push back against that and to start viewing ourselves once again as a community in which we all have a responsibility to one another. So here's how I would handle that if I were running for office. Are you running for office? No, I'm not. Because there's a lot of, we get a lot of mail. There's a lot of people who would like to see you run for president. If nominated, I will not accept. Okay. Okay. So I would say something like this. If by socialist, you mean somebody who forces a corporation to sell 10 or 20% of it to the government and then directs contracts their way so that they can profit from it, then I'm not a socialist. If by socialist, you mean somebody who takes in bribes from corporations and then removes the regulations so that they can pollute into our lakes and streams or through the air, then I'm not a socialist. But if by socialist, you mean somebody who thinks that everybody is entitled to healthcare, that everybody is entitled to have a place to live with a roof over their heads and food on the table. If you believe that it means a safety net so that the poorest and worst among us can live decent lives, then you're goddamn right. I'll embrace that notion of what a socialist is. And that means that 80% of Americans are socialists and the 20% who are not support Donald Trump, who is a socialist by those definitions. Absolutely right. And the reality is this, if you look at the developed world, if you look at the countries that have been grappling with these issues now for 100, 200 years, all of them except ours have recognized that healthcare is universal right. All of them provide education in a way that we do not. All of them have created a social safety net in the way that we have not. And for them, the idea of being a social Democrat or a democratic socialism is a commitment not just for people to have equal say in politics, but for people to have an equal opportunity in the rest of their lives. And to me, that makes a whole heck of a lot of sense. And people have made some jokes here because we were a deep state radio and then we became the DSR network. And I've been very pro-mom Donnie and pro-some of these other folks who are supporting similar movements. They said, oh, DSR stands for Democratic Socialist Radio. And I'm like, I'm fine with that. I got no problem with that. I would take that label happily into society. And frankly, I think we ought to be able to have a big 10th Democratic Party that includes people who openly embrace that. And that includes, by the way, Bernie Sanders and AOC and Mum Donnie and the mayor of Seattle. And a big huge chunk of people under the age of 30. And I went and did a little bit of digging on this. And the views of people under 30 towards this idea of socialism are majority pro. Majority pro. In other words, it's not where we were in 1963. You know, it's not where we were at the height of the Cold War. It's someplace entirely different. And I think people who are resistant to this need to wake up and smell the coffee. Fortunately, a new generation has embraced these ideas in the right way. And I can't wait until they are leading. And I can't wait. I will do everything in my power to help ensure that they get that chance as soon as possible. But we should add that Trump now uses the word communist more than he does the word socialist. And there, I think there's a pretty easy response. Well, I do know some communists. Vladimir Putin and Xi are communists. Now, do I like Vladimir Putin or Xi? They're thugs. They're awful. We need to oppose them. Do you know who loves them? Who thinks that they're his best friends? Who thinks that they're the best leaders out there? That's Donald Trump. So if you want to call somebody a communist or a lover of communists, don't look to me. Look to him. There are ways of dealing with this that are not defensive ones. And it's going to be a matter of watching Talarico, who promotes decency, who has these values. And by the way, candidates and everybody else should read E.J. Dion's column from the New York Times of a day or two ago on how to approach these values issues and relate to people who don't feel like Democrats have spoken to them. But we'll see if he's able to counter these vicious attacks on him that also include, of course, more of their homoerotic fantasies with the way in which they're portraying him. Now, before we go, David, I do have to talk to you a little bit about what must be a feeling of at least some tension that you have. You mentioned Mondami. James Dolan, the owner of the New York Knicks, has lied over and over saying that they couldn't have a watch party because Mondami wouldn't let them. And what we now know is that they'd applied for a permit. They made a mistake on their permit. They wanted to allow 10,000 people. They asked for 999. The limit is 10,000. And Mondami approved it. And then he canceled it. Dolan. Dolan is a mega thug. And it's the one who invited Trump to Madison Square Garden where he slept soundly while he was being booed. And then lied and said he wasn't sleeping. And put his curse on the Knicks for one game. Fortunately, they got over it. But Dolan is as bad as they get. But I was actually going to say something about Mom Donnie to wrap up here. And that is this. I think Mom Donnie's great. I thought he was a great candidate. I think he has lived up to that in his first six months in office. He is getting a lot done on a wide range of things, whether it's taxes or schools or subways or getting things cleaned up. And he's a great communicator. And frankly, if the Knicks win, I'm going to give him credit for that too. But quite apart from that, Mom Donnie socialism is about the social principle of doing for your constituents what they seek to have done. It's about public service. And the real choice in American politics today is between people like that who believe profoundly in the idea of public service and whose real ideology is figuring out how to give people what they need and what they want versus people who want to exploit the public. And that's the tension in American politics today. And so, you call me a socialist, I will give you a hug. I think that's great. Or call me a progressive or call me a liberal or call me a Democrat or call me whatever you want. But what I would say is that almost all those labels are meaningless. And what we need now are leaders representing the views of wherever they are in the country who are actually going to commit themselves to figuring out what the problems their constituents face are and solving the problems. Because government has been working for oligarchs for too long. And it is time to return the focus to results that people can feel. I can afford an apartment. I can afford food. I can send my kid to school. I won't live destitute when I turn 65. Those kinds of things are what make Mom Donnie really special, not the labels. And one of the things about New York is that Democrats who have run the city for a long time have kowtowed to billionaires and the Russians and others who have bought 30 million dollar apartments to launder their money and hardly use them and have gotten away without paying more than a trace element in taxes. And some of that is because the real estate brokers have put a lot of pressure on them. They've lobbied effectively. But it's also that they've just caved in to those people. And that's meant that some of the fundamental services and the ability of people of modest means to live anywhere in the city has been attenuated. And if Mondami is able to succeed at shifting some of that money, especially from the people from other places who leave vacant these enormous and hugely expensive co-ops and condos, but also to not give in to the threat that they'll leave the city, they're not going to do that and use it to provide some of the safety net that you need in a city like New York, then that is going to be a hugely important plus for the people of New York and a huge, I think, indicator of where we might go otherwise. Absolutely right. I totally agree with you. As usual, I agree with you. I feel invigorated talking to you and the fact that I got no sleep last night because of watching the Nix games is now offset. And I'll probably be able to make it till Saturday when I hope they win this and I can move on to something else. But for now, thank you, Norm. Thank you, everybody, for listening. And we'll be back with more about all this. And I would like to give one special plug. Yesterday, we did a great podcast on the future of U.S.-Israel relationships and U.S.-Middle-East relationships with Senator Chris Van Hollen and Jeremy Ben-Ami, the president of J Street. Go listen to that, too. It was a special Deep State radio and I encourage you to listen. Anyway, thanks, Norm. See you soon. Thank you, David. Bye-bye.