White Lies: The Scammer Who Left Brides In The Lurch And Couldn't Stop

Back on the dating scene, let's see your profile. Fine. Sporty one. Cute dog one. 120 over 78. What's that? My blood pressure. Why? Well, the pharmacist at Boots said it perfect, so I popped it on my profile. Well, I'm sure that'll get hearts racing. Get a free health MOT for over 40s, including NHS blood pressure check. Book yours at bootstockcom slash health MOT. Boots with you for life. Subject availability and eligibility criteria. England's only. Every case file, interview, and archive tells a piece of the truth. I'm Kylie Lo and on my podcast, Dark Down East, original reporting is at the heart of every case I cover. I don't just retail crime stories. I investigate them. I'm speaking with families, searching court records, and piecing together the facts that have been overlooked and forgotten with time. The result? True crime storytelling that digs as deeply into a case as you do. You can listen to Dark Down East wherever you get your podcasts. Camp site media. Hello? What is this? What do you want me to say? Yeah, it's for fun. It was just my... Camille, who you are? Camille and Weekly. Oh. I can relate a lot to Justin Sales, a guy who wanted badly to work in a big media job. We both grew up in places that weren't exactly global hot spots for glamorous writing gigs. In my case, the Appalachian Frontiers of Western Maryland, in his case, Providence, Rhode Island. But Justin was ambitious and talented. So after a decade or so of unsatisfying jobs at local newspapers, he decided to move to Los Angeles to try and make his dreams come true. That was back in early 2016. Justin was in his late 20s. And he hadn't been in LA long when he got a break. I was contacted by a headhunting firm. That was looking to staff up a new media venture, which claimed that it was, quote, the Huffington Post, but better. Ambitious. That was the literal tagline for the company, the name of the company was Newsuradi. Justin didn't exactly love the name or the tagline, but it felt like a good opportunity. He went in for an interview with a founder, a guy named Michael Esposito, who was basing his new venture in a downtown LA we work. It felt a little weird from the jump, but it seemed well-funded and had big goals. Justin was one of nearly 50 new hires. And despite his limited experience, he landed the job of political editor. That night, he called his dad to tell him the news. I said to him, like, something's off about this. I'm not sure if this is real. I'm not sure what's going on here. And he says to me, well, either you have a good paying job, and you get what you want, or you get a really good story for the rest of your life. Dad, it turns out, was speaking some real truth there. Justin didn't know what to make of this guy. Michael Esposito. It became clear to me quickly that this guy wasn't who he said he was. He was so eccentric, he'd burst into rooms and he would tell stories about his friendship with Mariah Carey. I grew up on the East Coast. I grew up around a lot of Italians, and he struck me as somebody who came from like a very East Coast Italian world. He did not strike me as having the very Uber rich culture background that he was describing. Quite the opposite. Esposito was sharp elbowed, short tempered. I remember one of the employees that I, quote unquote, managed showed up at 901 and grabbed a cup of coffee. And I remember him approaching this person and flipping out on them, saying things like after nine o'clock, your ass is mine. That's my time. You don't get the coffee. And I'm thinking to myself, this is a wee work. You didn't even pay for the coffee. There were frequent meltdowns too. There was a meeting where he tried to take everyone's cell phones away from them, so he couldn't record them. He just had a really strange attitude with a lot of strange stories. Just a very eccentric guy who seemed like he had something to hide. Which is the kind of thing an office full of ambitious journalists are going to pick up on. So Justin and his colleagues did what journalists do. We began to get very suspicious of him within a few days of working for him. I edited a couple dozen stories. At some point about a week and a half in, I told all the people I was, quote unquote, managing that you actually don't need to write anymore because something's very strange here. So let's just spend our time figuring out what's happening. Then we found out people had been working for a while, had never been paid. And then at some point after about three weeks, he abruptly shut down the company saying that he sent out checks. No one ever got paid. Justin had whiplash. He had been hired, given a lofty title in a job in a newsroom, handed a team to report political stories, and then poof. New Zoradi was gone. It was clear that there was something really scam me about this guy. So from there, started doing some research, stayed connected with some people, and that's how the story evolved. I could not figure out what the scam was. The question is, like, is it money laundering? Is he trying to build this up very quickly to sell it off to an investor, and then the investor quickly realizes this isn't a real company? Or did he just have delusions of grandeur and think that he could pull this off? Either way, like, I didn't know what the scam was here, but I was immediately convinced that we had been taken in some way by a scammer. A scammer far more effective and confusing than he ever imagined. This is Camillean, and I'm Josh Dean. This week, the story of the wedding scammer, a guy who somehow just couldn't stop. Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers, and on my podcast, The Deck. I tell you the stories of cold cases, featured on playing cards distributed in prisons, designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard, and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to The Deck Now, wherever you get your podcasts. Camillean, Camillean. Camillean. This is Camillean Weekly. I'll just say from the start here that things turned out okay for Justin Sales. There's no reason at all to feel bad for him. You know it's funny. I work at the wringer now. The wringer, if you don't know, is a wildly successful media company led by the famous sports and pop culture journalist Bill Simmons. It makes mostly podcasts these days. Justin hosts some of those. He also writes about sports and culture. It is, quite literally, the job he moved to LA to chase. And he landed it. Just a few months after his failed run at that bizarro scam startup. I kind of fell into my dream situation. After kind of being sold a dream, there were people that left other good paying jobs because he promised them salaries that they were never going to get. There were a lot of people who thought that this was their big break. They still feel very salty about the whole situation. So it worked out for Justin. But there are many others who were really burned by their experience with Michael Espozido or whatever his name was after the news or audio implosion. And fair enough, if you quit a good job to take a flyer on something and then that something turns out to be a house of cards, you're going to be angry. And if your journalist who suddenly has a lot of time on your hands, you're probably not just going to sit there and stew. In the early days, there were people who were like really helpent on figuring out exactly who he was and how to get some kind of justice. And they set up Facebook groups and there were email chains. And there was just like any shred of information that people could find. They would drop in there. But the thing is, Michael Espozido is a very common name. So it was hard to find anything. And eventually, at some point in 2018, the first thing that pops up is that he had been running catering businesses in the Los Angeles area. And odd pivot. From starting a media company, Espozido was apparently now providing catering and other services for weddings. But there was one similarity with his old media business. He was, in many cases, not showing up or providing the level of service that like your eye could put together in 10 minutes right now. And just pocketing tens of thousands of dollars. Turns out people were pissed. There were many lawsuits. And because he was using a fake name, he never showed up to defend himself in court. So again, this Michael Espozido, not his real name, seemed to be running a business that was not on the up and up. People were paying for services they either did not get or which did not meet the standards they were promised. There are a handful of default judgments against him in Los Angeles under the name Michael Espozido where he just never showed up. So these people are technically owed this money. The funny thing is what I would discover years later when I actually started putting the pieces together is his background was actually in the culinary field. He had no media experience. But the catering business actually seemed like it made sense for him. Although the rest of the story he told himself seemed a very familiar type of bullshit. He said that his parents owned private jets and that his dad was a cold tycoon and that his mother was a brain surgeon. None of that ended up being true. And he did not present to me as somebody who grew up in that environment. He struck me as a normal guy, maybe a little street wise. For the first few years, the mystery of what this man's game was was just a small pebble and Justin Shoe. He had plenty of work he liked to do at the ringer. But he could never really shake that pebble out. And then right before the pandemic, I get a Google News Alert hit on the names Michael Espozido in Newsuradi. And what had happened was the San Francisco Chronicle had reported on a very strange situation in late 2019 about a restaurant in San Francisco that went belly up. In short, a supposed restaurant tour from New York, calling himself Michael White, took over a vacant space with a partner and opened a place called Cookshop. Across from another location he rented and where he and his partner planned to open a second restaurant, that one never opened. Cookshop lasted three months. It then closed suddenly and controversially with a flurry of bad press. Among other things, yep, the staff had never been paid. And one of the business partners got arrested for selling liquor without a license. This was the second guy. Lawrence Tonner was held an extra-dited back to New York City on a parole violation connected to a series of felonies from nearly a decade earlier. An SF area blog called Brokeass Stewart summed up the episode like this. The two catch me a few can con men who came into San Francisco this past spring and rented separate restaurants' faces are gone. One is in police custody, the other is at large. We are writing this article not just because it's a fascinating story, but to warn people not to work for these hucksters in the future. And since they're likely to use fake names again, publishing their pictures at this time is all we can do to warn people. Now I've said in light, okay, now I have confirmation that this guy is at least using aliases. Maybe Michael Esposito is his real name, but he's using aliases. It mentions Newsuradi in the article. It's of course like now it's in San Francisco. So it has moved five hours up the coast from Los Angeles. And we're seeing a pattern of behavior. This blog at Justin's radar just before the pandemic lockdown struck. And so he soon found himself with more time on his hands. Like the rest of us, he was stuck at home and feeling antsy. He decided he wanted to solve this mystery. To find out once and for all who this Michael Esposito was and what he was up to. First I thought it would be a written piece for the wringer.com, but by this point I had consumed a lot of true crime podcasts. We really had like the true crime podcast boom in the wake of cereal. And by early 2021, I was convinced this was a podcast, which was right around the time the first season of chameleon was coming out, right? And I hadn't heard it yet. Okay, I need to acknowledge how meta this is, but Justin means the limited series we at Campside made that I hosted in 2020 that gave rise to the chameleon name. Literally the franchise you're listening to right now. It told the story of a bizarre scammer who had been nicknamed the Hollywood Con Queen. I remember pitching to people at the ringer and they're like, oh, you're going to hear chameleon. This sounds like chameleon. They love the idea of diving deep into the Esposito mystery. People were really out money. There were a lot of emotional stakes in this story, just like in chameleon. And I think there is like a through line in both of these stories where these are people who, using very deceptive means, are praying on people's dreams. Because the person at the heart of it is a ridiculous human being who has done ridiculous things. It was a successful pitch, but this wasn't a story yet. He needed more dirt on the guy. He also needed to understand the con. They were like, this is great. We love the idea. We have no idea if there's anything here. So Justin spent the better part of 2021 chasing leads and banking interviews with victims who told him a series of variations on the same story. A guy going by several aliases made promises, often in food and hospitality and left people in the lurch. And on the third day, I found, I think I personally believe the people that he had scammed the most in the most egregious way. Something else Justin discovered that day, the alleged scammers real name. Carl John Buccio. I always imagine this to be this like big mind blowing reveal. But instead, I was like, I got his name, but it unveiled a lot because he had a criminal record in New York dating back to the 2000s that included $361,000 in credit card fraud. That was reported about in the New York Post with a lot of the details that match up with what I knew. Justin now had a name, many victim accounts and a wild yarn. But he lacked something very important, a third act, something that at least pointed toward an ending of this adventure he was now on. That's what his podcast editors needed. I remember saying to one of my bosses that not being able to land the plane on this podcast at that point was my greatest professional regret. Because I put so much work into it, I was so convinced there was a good story there, but they were right. He had to keep going. I knew he was in Texas at that point because I was able to find some addresses, but I didn't know what name the scammer was using and I didn't know what business he was running and I didn't know if he was still scamming. I didn't know what he was doing. It just needed something else and it needed what was happening in Texas. It also really needed the way it came together. So the way it ended up coming together was I think one of the most fascinating pieces about this. That story after the break. Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers and on my podcast The Deck. I tell you the stories of cold cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue justice because these stories deserve to be heard and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to The Deck now wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Camille Leone. One of the people Justin Sales interviewed during his pandemic reporting spree was a food influencer named Ali Tongue who has featured prominently in the SF Chronicle article that had been Justin Skeleton Key. Ali had been hired to do some work by the alleged scammer Michael Esposito or Mike White as he was then calling himself but surprise, surprise she was never paid. Ali, like Justin, didn't just let the experience go. She also kept after it. And because she had a following online information also found her. Like two women in Texas who reached out after doing $40,000 worth of work for a guy who called himself Lance Miller. And yep, they were never paid either. One of those women Amy Sivil is told by a friend of a friend someone in the wedding industry that it might be Michael Esposito. So she looks up Michael Esposito, scam wedding. She finds the San Francisco Chronicle article. She calls Ali Tongue. So many people had done their own digging on this guy and spoken to so many of the same people that we all found Ali and Ali eventually is like, look, I haven't looked into this guy since 2019. You need to call Justin. So any friend did just that? They insisted on doing a Zoom because there was a piece of them that worried that whoever the person they had been texting with me popped on the Zoom. It would actually be Carl. They worry that they were being taken again. The stories Justin heard were very familiar, yearly reminiscent of previous scams in LA and San Francisco. The basic mechanical level of the scam is taking money for services that are either never provided or provided at such a bad level that they may as well have never been provided. A lot of these things are occurring on people's wedding days. A day that you really only get one shot at. A wedding that he just really, he showed up before and actually did, but did at such a poor level and provide none of the services that he promised and you know made out with like $20,000 for probably providing minimal work. It doesn't seem on the face of it like a very effective scam, but clearly the hustle worked. He just seemed to keep going and going and ever so slightly evolving versions of the same thing. Justin, Amy and her friend knew the guy they all now know as Carl Buccio was still in the area, still active to some degree, and they began to scheme. Justin decided to fly to Houston and plot a sting of sorts with his new friends. He had an open house at the wedding venue he was operating and we went in there one night and it was really reliant on the fact that he would not remember this guy that he owed three, four thousand bucks to from seven years earlier. It was one of the strangest nights of my life because there aren't so too many times in your life, especially as an adult that you can do anything resembling espionage. I went to Best Buy and bought a lav mic to record this encounter with Lance Miller slash Michael Esposito or whatever he was calling himself. I shaved my chest taped to wire to my chest, which might have been going a little overboard, but if you're going to do it you got to commit. And if you're in Texas you're really going to commit and I put on a cowboy hat and wearing the cowboy hat I looked like the most Los Angeles ass person wearing a cowboy hat you've ever seen in your life. He believed the story Justin told that he'd recently moved to Austin with his fiance and they were looking for a nice wedding venue in Houston. Something exactly like this beautiful venue here we're sitting in talking to you. So the confrontation is it's really actually in hindsight like one of the dumbest things I've ever done if you really look at it from the outside. Justin had no idea how the guy was going to react. He didn't bring security or have really any sort of ex-applian. But like for the sake of making content I really couldn't have imagined doing another way. We've all been there making a podcast. You're seduced by the idea of exciting tape. Toward the end of the evening Amy takes some aside to have a conversation about the $30,000,000 that he owed her. And while she's doing that I come out and I sit down right across from him. Hey Amy I was looking for you. How you doing Lance? You're hearing the audio of that encounter now. You guys, uh, did I stop learning anything? What are you talking about? Is everything okay? And Amy and I will never forget it for the life of me and she has this great Texas drawl. She says, Lance this is going to get really uncomfortable. Justin turned up the pressure. Is because your name card, Carbucci. Is your have you gone by Michael Esposito, Mark White, Lawrence Toner? No. Okay, listen, I, what is it that I can do to assist you today? He and Amy also laid out the information they'd assembled. News stories, arrest records, old newspaper ads for scammy businesses that had his picture on them. You know what I've heard your story from a lot of people. I would like to hear your story from you. I started showing him these things one by one. I said, do you remember this? Do you remember this? Do you remember this? And every time he's just like he's he is again, he is a turtle at this moment. He is like quiet. He is not this like loud boisterous person that I had come across so many times. He is at this point scared and I can see it in his eyes. And then the last thing I show him was my employment contract from the fake media company Newsoroddy. Because you hired a bunch of journalists about seven years ago, right? Yeah. You did. You hired me a Newsoroddy. And I said, do you remember this? And he looks at me and said, I knew you looked familiar. You knew I looked familiar. You hired me a Newsoroddy. Right. Yeah. I think I honestly don't remember exactly who you are best with. That's fine. Well Justin badly wanted needed was a full confession on tape. That's what he'd hope would happen. Like the climactic scene in a movie. But it did not play out that way. Because the thing about people who have spent their entire lives manipulating people is they are very good at manipulating people. So what is it that you want from me right now? Are people not allowed to make mistakes? But you have come here and purposely lied everybody. First of all, I have not lied to anybody. You have held your true identity from people. I'm not going to adjust to that. Well, I mean, and even with me, it's like you have refused to pay me. You have... I mean, I have paid college park flowers. He's $7,000. You did. And so I mean, I can tell you that you said there's other. At this point, they went back and forth, back and forth, but they didn't get anywhere. This guy had a story for everything. In fact, the only thing that he admitted to doing wrong was not paying people at Newsoroddy. Everything else was everybody else's fault. I'm asking him about specific wedding couples and specific situations. And he's firing him back with this, this, and this. I'm asking him about the situation in San Francisco. And he's telling me that he's placing blames on his business partner. He's basically reversing the point of view in the story, things that they're telling me that he did wrong. He's saying that they did wrong. It's just he's turning into this big game of he said, she said, my head is spinning. And I remember walking out of there and I called my producer and I'm like, I don't know if we have a podcast anymore. And I told him what happened. He goes, you're out of your mind. This is like great stuff. Well, Justin couldn't believe is how well Carl that is his real name, Carl Buccio remembered things. Every detail of every alleged scam, every jilted couple failed wedding. He was such an expert level liar that he was able to have this incredible recall because he had to live with so much of this stuff and keep his story straight. Like in San Francisco, he was going by three different names, depending on what town he was in. On some level, there's some genius at play because just his ability to remember these things and his ability to like keep a story straight all these years later. This is I have to say a thing I have heard myself say many times about some of the most successful scammers of our era, including the suspect at the center of Communion Hollywood Conquan, the podcast that helped inspire Justin sales to take on the so-called wedding scammer. These people are I hate to say it often freakishly talented. The number of reasons we don't lie is because we shouldn't lie to other people. The number two reason is because it's really, really hard to lie and keep your story straight for for so long. You're gonna get caught. You can't remember all the details. There's something's not going to check out. Not the case with Carl Buccio. He just didn't slip. There's always a piece of me that wants to believe that he thinks that this time is the time he's gonna run a legitimate business. But at every point, he's very much reliant on robbing Peter to pay Paul. He needs to take the security deposit from this thing to pay for this thing. He needs to not pay this employee so he can make sure he does this wedding. Then eventually, at a certain point, that money dries up. But the thing I've noticed a lot is that he starts out apologetic, promising to give everyone their money back and try to make things right. The amount of times I've heard people say or I've heard recordings of him say we're gonna make this right is actually crazy. That's happened to all those journals at New Zoravi. It was like, I'm gonna get you a money, checks in the mail. He literally said the checks in the mail. And of course, it never came. It's just a lot of trouble to go through. People ask me like, if he was never gonna give me this money, why did he waste all this time saying he was gonna give me this money? It's so much work. Here's another thing. He went to the culinary institute of America. He's a good chef. He could get a job being a chef somewhere. And now, that's hard work. I understand. But what he's doing is also hard work. He has created really like the world's I think most complex scam so we can get like $7,000, $15,000 a pop. But every now and then, he looks into something a little bit bigger. But this is a lot of work to get there. If you're wondering why Michael Slashlant, Slash Carl, was never arrested for any of this alleged wrongdoing, well, the answer is that scams like this are just very hard to stop. The individual cases, even if they meet the definition of fraud, are often too small for cops to devote any real resources. And when a scam covers so many jurisdictions, it creates confusion because you then have multiple departments that really can't be bothered. I almost hate to commit this to tape, but it's just very easy to get away with most scams. It's hard to pull them off, but it's easy to get away with it if you're good. You know, on a personal level, none of this is low level scam. These are like, again, I can't stress this enough. Incredibly high personal stakes. But when you bring this to the FBI, these numbers aren't great enough for them to get involved. And a lot of times the police will shrug and say, we don't really know what to do. Sue him, not realizing that you can't sue a ghost. If he's using a fake name and he doesn't live in the place anymore, what good is suing him going to do? Justin took this part personally. The Wedding Scamer podcast ended up doing very well. Some cops and prosecutors took notice, and he honestly hoped that one of them would now finally stop this man. That didn't happen. I felt pretty deflated because again, like I was proud of what we made. I was hoping that it was spur someone to take action. I was legitimately confused. And there was a piece of me that was always like, did I get this whole thing wrong? Look, my lawyer would probably get upset if I said that it got personal, but it did get a little personal. And I feel comfortable with that being on the record now. It got personal because I became very close with a lot of the people who were very affected by him. In fact, the reality that this podcast was widely heard and resulted in no arrest seemed to only emboldened Carl Buccio. Just to be clear, the Scammers actual real life name. I've seen emails that he sent to clients using all the different aliases that we mentioned in the podcast. His name's Carl. So he signs it Lance comma, Michael comma, Carl comma, whoever. And it's like the balls on this guy. He started saying things about me that are absolutely insane. And they are the one part that I do not want to spoil from the epilogue. An epilogue that Justin made back in the summer of 2025 that put a button on this story in which he gets a hold of some tape where the scammer is making some truly wild accusations about him. I'd encourage you to go listen to that epilogue and the whole series while you're at it. Suffice it to say that Carl was not exactly quaking with fear once the dust settled from the podcast's release. Carl leased a new wedding venue in Austin this time. Not for long, but long enough that he was able to sub lease it to the media company Axios during the 2025 South by Southwest festival for $80,000, which he apparently used to pay the rent in a venue in Houston. He was still renting to brides and grooms. Well, he allegedly used some of the money for that. He also used that money to buy Louis Vuitton and expensive cologne and just like fun this lifestyle. Image Justin says was always a big motivator for Carl Buccio. He loved Louis Vuitton. They allegedly knew him on a first name basis at the Louis Vuitton store in Austin, which is like all he's ever wanted because he always told these stories about having this rich upbringing and the dad being the cold tycoon and like being sent to school in New York and them rolling out the red carpet at the Gucci store. This is all he's ever wanted. So he gets really cocky. He's doing this stuff again. And then early 2025, the money starts to dry up. And he keeps taking money for weddings, but he's not paying his rent. So he's taking money for weddings that are supposed to happen in May, in June, in September. Knowing that he's about to get evicted. Now, whether he thought he could figure something out to get those weddings happen, I don't know, but he took the money for those weddings in some places up to $54,000. And the wedding never happened. The couple that gave him $54,000 showed up to their rehearsal dinner the night before their wedding. And the venue was chained shut. Let's just pause for a second here to really think about this. This is a one-time shot. Supposed to be the most important day of these people's lives to this point. That for me really gets at the depravity of this scam. It's just so cruel. Their wedding never happened. They didn't get their money back. They are in a situation where they have to find a new wedding venue in caterer and everything on like 18 hours notice. And it's just an absolute disaster. And that happened several times over this spring after he got evicted. And this is when the local media picks it up. And this is when the police there start reaching out to me. And the local media is reaching out to me. This seemed like the moment when this fraudulent wedding caterer was about to finally be served. I'm sorry, but I'm just going to say it. His just desserts. We begin with the story of an alleged wedding scammer now behind bars. Tonight of Attacuse is stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from Brides to B is in jail. Yeah. Carl John Bucho, the second on August 15th this past August. He got arrested in charge with second degree fraud for the stuff in the Q scenario, which is all the wedding stuff. And third degree, larceny in Austin. That was it though. Nothing from San Francisco. Nothing from Texas. This is not Bernie made off. This is not crime of the century money on an individual level. But when you start to add this money up before you even get into the personal stakes, there's a lot of money that this guy owes people. So where's Carl Bucho today? He's currently sitting in jail. I should at some point stress that all of this is allegedly and based on my reporting, etc, etc, based on affidavits. I don't know how he could ever pay this money. He has not made bail as of October 2nd. He's still sitting in a jail in Texas. Hasn't made bail. And that's the thing. The bail was set at $116,000. $100,000 for one crime, $8,000 for another, $8,000 for another. You don't need to come up with $11,600 to make that. Still sitting in jail. Somebody cannot come up with $11,000 of his money of their money. To get him out of jail right now. The thing that felt really good was when the both affidavits come out, the one from Houston and the one from Austin, the podcast was mentioned in both of them. You know, as true crime podcasters, we are not the police. We can only do so much. But after a year and a half of feeling like I did my best, but maybe my best wasn't good enough, ultimately, I think it did do some good, having it all out there. Justin has not spoken with Carl since that undercover encounter at the Houston venue. I tried to get a touch with him through his public defender. I've tried every means to just give him the right to respond to these things. There is a piece of me that feels like I lived with the story for so long that it's just time for me to just hang it up. But who knows, maybe a jailhouse interview would be the best thing we could do. What Carl Buccio is alleged to have done was to betray all of trust at some of the most vulnerable, meaningful moments of people's lives. We like to believe that bad actors get what's coming to them. That if you heard enough people, eventually the consequences will catch up. But sometimes that takes years. In a podcast, a sting and a whole lot of receipts to make it happen. Chameleon is a production of Campside Media and Audio Chuck. It's written and hosted by me, Josh Dean, and produced by Joe Barrett. Our associate producer is Emma Simmonoff, Sound Design and Mixed by Tiffany Demack, theme music by Ewin Lightroom Ewan and Mark McAdam. Our production manager is Ashley Warren. Campside's executive producers are Vanessa Grigoriatus, Matt Cher, and me, Josh Dean. And finally, if I can ask a few favors before sending you on your way today, please rate, follow, and review Chameleon on your favorite podcast platforms to help spread the word. I know everyone says this, but it's true. Ratings and reviews really do help. And if you have any feedback, tips, or story ideas, you can email us at chameleonpod at campsidemedia.com or leave us a message at a special number we've set up. 201-743-8368. Dial plus one from outside North America. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.