EP: 389 Where Heaven Meets Earth with NT Wright

My mind goes automatically to Mark chapter 10 and it's parallel in Matthew where James and John say to Jesus Can we be your right and left hand man when you come in your kingdom? Yeah, and they have in mind a king Yeah, quite like Herod except without the marital complications And that they were that Jesus will be running from Jerusalem He'd be running the world be running Judea and then his dominion will spread out into the world because that's what the Psalms say That's what the prophets say and Jesus says you don't understand guys The rulers of this world do that stuff by bossing and bullying and crushing people everything in their path We're gonna do it the other way By the one who's gonna be first being the servant and the slave of all because the son of man didn't come to be Served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many so I was higher again And see I see as symptomatic of our problem that many Western teachers have taken that last line Mark 1045 to give his life as a ransom for many and Have seen rightly that it's an evocation of Isaiah 53 and have said there we are that substitutionary atonement end of argument Job done without realizing that that line comes in Mark 10 as the redefinition of power That this is what true power is going to look like and that's why Then with Jesus death resurrection and ascension the disciples return from the Mount of the Ascension To Jerusalem with great joy. They're not saying. Oh dear. He's gone again. Just so we thought we had him back They're delighted because they know that he is now at God's right hand ruling the world The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine Joy to charity the Smithsonian and if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it I'm gonna assume at least one person is right because if one person's right it busts the paradigm It all goes back to the fallen chair and the problem with the modern-day church They have a very truncated view of the supernatural this backdrop That's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal All right, you might be asking yourself how the heck did this happen we don't know NT rides coming on the show I'm blurry creatures one of the biggest theologians in the world and we're gonna talk to him about fusions Paul some of the blurry stuff in the New Testament and we're gonna get them out of I mean, obviously these guys are smarter than we are but You know, sometimes we like to get him out of a lane a little bit. Yeah, just a little I mean, this is crazy This is probably Tom Wright is one of the living last living legends when it comes to theologians I mean, he's written 80 plus books. He's Oxford Bishop in New Testament scholar like the preeminent New Testament scholar And the fact he's coming to join us has just Shows his humility, but he's got a new book out the vision of Ephesians where he dives into one of Paul's letters And there's a lot of really blurry stuff in there Nate There's the powers and principalities. There's Spiritual warfare heaven and earth colliding is really kind of like what he talked about it I think it's fascinating that we have some of this escapism Theology that sort of plagued us especially with all the weird stuff and conspiracy theory rabbit holes I mean we get it every day. It's like this feeling. I gotta get out of here, you know And I think that he has a really interesting take on it and really blew my mind and If you want to get more mind-blowing content on blurry creatures Edward blurry creatures comm slash members support the show you get access to early shows on unreleased content and discounts on merch tickets and all the things we do here So let's get anti on this one Luke. Come on Tom. Let's go Welcome to blurry creatures and T right. Thank you for coming on. We'll call you Tom the rest of this episode We talk a lot on our show over the years. We started in 2020 spiritual warfare principalities powers and all the weird and the strange but the supernatural heaven and earth unseen realms new creation cosmic scopes and a lot of Christians who have these kinds of questions come to our show it gets real strange here, but often We dive deep into theology. So we're excited to have you on you have a new book You've written over 80 books, but the the visions of Ephesians. This is out and we'd love to get into that where you are and why you wrote this book specifically and Thank you for coming on blurry creatures You're very welcome and yeah, I got the kind of briefing about your program and I I raised an eyebrow as I was the word supernatural which most modern Western Christians when they hear the word supernatural they become Platonists and You know because they think all there's this totally other realm and we're down here and that's up there or something Rather than seeing heaven and earth as interlocking Interfacing bipartite Elements of God's single creation. I don't know how to say that anymore clearly But so I I kind of resist the word supernatural. I know that that's how many many people Just talk generally about Um, the fact that we are not simply Um, naturalist. I mean it's a serious Lewis who you mentioned before In the beginning of his book miracles He lines up the argument in terms of naturalism and supernaturalism And the the trouble with that is that by naturalism. He basically means Modern forms of epicureanism and by supernaturalism though. He doesn't say it in that book But he does elsewhere. He basically means a sort of christian platonism Um, and I love that book because there are places where that mask slips and he is actually talking about The heaven plus earth reality of the bible. Um, but um naturalism versus supernaturalism I think is the wrong way to set it up. So just to set out my stall That's one of your big words. And so I thought I better let you have that from the from the start. I like it I love it actually. I did. Yeah, I mean I really this is a complete honor. I said this before we started but um You know, you're at oxford and you are one of the preeminent Um theologians that you know 80 plus books you're 77 years old and it really is an honor as Nate said theology is a lot of what we try to talk about we try to frame all of the things that They kind of get weird in the bible or weird in people's realities with within a within the biblical context and um, right So let's start with Ephesians, right? Um, no, sure. I mean why why Ephesians you say it's it's uh, you call it the room with a view In paul's house, um Paul covers a lot of a lot of ground in Ephesians including Including things about spiritual warfare and heaven and earth we just spoke spoke on but uh, why why was this an important? Place or or a book for you to write um, it's always Ephesians has always been an important Uh a letter for me When I was doing my doctorate, I was working primarily on romans And if you're working on romans that means you're also working on galatians But I was always aware that Ephesians was just over there to one side And that Ephesians was looking on and saying Yes, but if you just stand back a bit and see the bigger picture There's everything that you're saying in romans and galatians. Is there somewhere? Or be it scrunched together tightly and without some of the backup arguments like Abraham and so on But that you get that bigger picture and what I've often said and I think I say in this book Is that if the Protestant reformists in the 16th century had made Ephesians rather than romans and galatians their main sect text For how to reorder the church's theology at the end of the middle ages Then the entire history of the western world would have been different Because they were able to expound romans and galatians in terms of the medieval idea that the real aim of the whole thing Is for us to go to heaven when we die or sometime after we die And they were concerned to say yeah, and if you believe in jesus You are assured that you are going straight to heaven with no purgatory en route Now that was the big question at the end of the 15th century and beginning of the 16th century Um, but Ephesians is not talking about that Medieval idea of going to heaven that that puzzles people because of course in Ephesians Chapters one and two you do get this sense that we are already seated in heavenly places And we'll we'll come back to that no doubt But the point is Ephesians chapter one verse 10 Which could summarize all of pauline theology that god's plan was to sum up in the messiah everything in heaven and on earth So many christians think the aim of god coming in the person of jesus the messiah Was to take us away from earth and take us to heaven and the answer is no they're designed to work together Otherwise the sermon on the mount makes no sense when you say that the meek will inherit the earth and so on and so on But you know all that stuff. Yeah, so there's like a combination And I think we you know obviously the supernatural is not a popular word on our show either Because people are trying to say this stuff doesn't it didn't go away. It's still here angels have more of a A connection to humans than they're not spiritual beings floating around and in fact the bible talks about very physical in our face interactions communication talking And in a way that we can't as modern christians When do you think that started kind of coming in when we started separating heaven and earth? Oh, I mean The the ancient philosophy of epicureanism was doing that Long before the time of jesus But it's come back into the modern western world In really in the 17th 18th 19th centuries I write about this in the first chapter of my giford lectures history and eschatology when because epicureanism used to be The philosophy of the idle rich And there weren't many idle rich in the ancient world and so epicureanism was not hugely popular Most people were either street level stoics or some form of platonist or some form of just nihilist, but uh in the 17th 18th and 19th century Western europe particularly became the idle rich and hence embraced this philosophy of Well, there's there if there is a heaven It's a long way away up there and it doesn't have much to do with us We can't affect it So we'll ignore it for all practical practical purposes and get on running the world our way That sometimes came out in terms of deism Um, and there is a clash between deism and epicureanism which reaches horrible proportions during the french revolution But in principle most westerners today if they hear the word god They're assuming something like a god who lives a long way away upstairs somewhere Probably out of sight who might conceivably be interested in us from time to time, but mostly isn't around And so on Have you ever been standing there looking and going wait? What is that? And you're not just looking out the window. You're not looking in the forest. You're looking at your bank statement You're not alone subscriptions stack up quietly. There's apps that you forgot free trials that you never Cancelled. What are you gonna do luke? I mean you keep getting that big footbox showing up at your door You love it, but just right now you can't afford it That's why blurry creatures uses rocket money shows everything in one place and helps you cancel the stuff You don't use anymore. It's simple clear no drama and you can focus on the big questions Not the mystery charges from three months ago. 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They deal with customer service You don't have to pick up the phone you can go out in the woods and you can find all the blurry things So, uh, let's go over to rocket money.com everyone. We could all we could all head over there Let's let rocket money help us reach our financial goals faster this year join at rocket money.com slash blurry That's rocket money.com slash blurry rocket money.com slash blurry make things clear in your financial world not blurry That's then allowed The western world to say well, okay He may have some rules and we we sooner or later may be held to account to those rules But in the meantime, let's get on and carve up the world the way we want to and so that's really the enlightenment The western enlightenment we are now the enlightened ones. Voltaire said god. I have no need of that hypothesis Um, so so we'll get on and run the world without god Um, and then when christians try to break back into that they have usually Invoked playto to say well, yeah, okay. Maybe heaven is a long way away But we have these things called souls Which really know that their true home is in heaven and we're looking forward to going back there as soon as we're allowed Now that actually is the in the first century That's the philosophy of people like plutarck and to an extent the jewish philosopher philo It's certainly not what the new testament's all about and never forget the i'm sure you guys don't the new testament ends with The end of book of revelation where the strap line is the dwelling of god is with humans Not the dwelling of humans is with god and the new jerusalem is coming down from heaven to earth Rather than citizens of earth being spirited away to some distant place called heaven So i mean in a nutshell that's that's the the the back story So how do you think paul like gets this information because it seems like he's constantly educating the locals so like hey Think about it this way. Well, he's thinking biblically. He's thinking with the psalms and the prophets And and ultimately with the tauras the backdrop You know the tauras the kind of whole story of the people of god Cast in the manner of a kind of an ur history But ultimately creation is good and it's composed of two spheres Heaven which we call heaven and earth and heaven is god's fear earth is human sphere But right from the beginning the god who is in heaven is kind of around he's there. He's watching. He's talking And and the idea of heaven earth being made for one another Is absolutely central in genesis one and two and Much of the new testament is a way of saying now with jesus. We're back on track with that project. Thank you very much So you mentioned this and i wanted to get back to it in your mind then in infusions too when paul says that we are seated in heavenly places um From his pauline view then as we sort of unpacked The way that he and the way the bible talks about our reality. What does he actually mean? What is how do we contextualize or understand what he's when he's talking about we're seated in heavenly places It is very difficult for us because as I say we all grow up in the west with this idea that heaven is a long way away So when he says we're seated in heavenly places for years I used to read that as a kind of realized eschatology We're going to go to heaven one day and we're actually already there so that nothing else matters so much And then I was always brought up short by the fact that in the last chapter as you know He talks about warfare in the heavenly places Um, and so hang on. I thought if we were in the heavenly places, why is there still warfare? What's what's going on? What's this all about? And the answer has to be that um with the resurrection and ascension of jesus Jesus himself is now seated at the right hand of god, which Doesn't mean that he's gone away and is now irrelevant to earth because the one who is Seated at the right hand of the throne of heaven is the one who is in charge on earth So there is a sense of heaven being the place from which earth is is Arranged organized judged redeemed etc And but heaven and earth having come together in jesus are then coming together by the spirit in his people So that those who are in the messiah and christo are already Living at this dangerous intersection of heaven and earth and from one point of view They are with the messiah seated at the right hand of god, which means that they are To assume the posture of genuine human beings through whose Servanthood and suffering god is Accomplishing his will in the world that's very much a roman's eighth theme um Simultaneously there at the right hand of god with christ and therefore Active in the running of the world in the sense of prayer and suffering and stewardship etc Um whilst while at the same time having of course an earthly existence in which they live out this Uh odd business of heaven and earth being joined in the very practical details of daily life So um, it's hard for us to say this. I mean We our modern western world doesn't give us good language or easy concepts to say it because we've been so shaped The wrong way but thinking of that business of the dangerous intersection between heaven and earth and of the calling of humans right from genesis one to stand at that dangerous intersection That I think is what's going on and I I find that one helpful way of saying it anyway, tom. Do you feel like humans come Pre-programmed with this escapism Kind of mentality and then we read that into the scriptures and we want to get out of here I just want to go I don't know. I don't know that we're pre-programmed into it. I think Granted all the horrors of the world and and folly and death and suffering and so on It's only natural for humans In many times and seasons and spaces to think in terms of yeah, this place is a mess and and actually I'd be better off out of it Thank you very much And you know that that that impulse which you ever you get in the ancient world when you get those tombstones which say Um, I was not I was I am not I don't care in other words What the heck was all this about? Um, and and does it matter and and and I'm well off without it So, I mean that isn't just a modern perception in other words. Yeah, um, but it's it's a perception of A fallen world that is saying, uh, what was all that about? And and this is where of course the standard question has to be put the other way around that people talk about the problem of evil But if you believe in a random world where everything is just the random bumping together of chance atoms Then you have the problem of good. Why is there beauty? Why is there love? Why is there laughter? Why is there joy and delight? Is that the universe playing a nasty trick on us? So you get back into that debate one way or another And of course the great philosophers have wrestled with those two things. How can these be simultaneous? But the the the the jewish the israelite and the christian says It's because the world is out of joint because humans have not worshiped the god in whose image they are made And so they haven't reflected his justice and his stewardship into the world and that's why it's all gone horribly wrong We're kind of recalibrating ourselves with effusions here and understanding the the relationship between heaven and earth, right? So then when you get to effusion six, which is of course Paul says we battle against principalities and powers in the heavenly places and we sort of Predicated that with like, okay. What does it really mean if we're seated in the heavenly places? So How do you make sense of what Paul's talking about there? I mean you said In the book that this passage makes surprising sense in an algorithm shaped age How do we think about spiritual warfare about principalities and powers if we're recalibrating our Or sort of post enlightenment Understanding with Paul's Paul's understanding of the scriptures and the biblical operations There is a problem here because many many devout christians have quietly bracketed out the whole dimension of principalities and powers As being or it's all that wooey stuff that that some people worried about But really it gets into a lot of trouble and you'd be better off not thinking about it And and it's also it's easier to think that because every time paul mentions the principalities and powers It comes out slightly differently. He doesn't have a stock list of all the things. It thrones dominions authorities rulers It's it's as though I mean think of the in Colossians chapter one or the end of romans eight or the other places where he kind of lists principalities and rulers and authorities It comes out differently, which implies to me He doesn't have a kind of filing cabinet mind for rulers means this principalities means this powers means that I think paul is Basically saying we know that there are a lot of what we today would call forces out there I mean we hypothesize them by saying they're economic forces or political forces or social or cultural forces Um, which is a way of saying Humans seem to be under pressure to go this way or to do something like that um, it's in other words, we're not simply Randomly random individuals who happen to choose this or that there are pressures on us But we don't have good language for it in our day And I don't think paul had very good language for it in his day, but possibly slightly better than ours So retrieving what he says is tricky But then the scenario which he has in mind is what you find in 1st chrintin's 15 versus 20 to 28 Where he talks about jesus having won the initial victory over the dark powers In his death and resurrection and ascension and then paul says he must reign Until he has put all his enemies under his feet. In other words Jesus is now ruling the world I mean one of the things I bang on about from time to time is that when christians celebrate ascension day They they often miss the point that this is when jesus is enshroned as lord of the of the world And we're not waiting for that to happen that has already happened But then For whatever reason in the good purposes of god between the ascension and his final Coming to put everything right when god will be all in all that's verse 28 of the of first chrintin's 15 There is an ongoing battle in which jesus is Completing the work accomplished on the cross and in his resurrection and ascension Which will end with the overcoming of death itself Let's take a minute and talk about life itself and Sadly since our row was overturned babies lives are at a greater risk these days and our friends at pre-born though Are standing in the gap for babies and women who are facing unplanned pregnancies Yeah, 67 million babies lives have been tragically ended through abortion since row and the sanctity of life month We're honoring those lives The abortion pill counts for over 60 of all abortions and makes abortions available 24 7 But in the midst of all this darkness there is a light that shines pre-born has rescued over 400 thousand babies from abortion And every day on average they rescue 200 or more babies They're literally doing the lord's work and when a woman considering abortion comes to a pre-born network clinic She'll hear her baby's heartbeat see her precious baby on ultrasound and instantly The chance of that baby living is doubled pre-born is the organization that we chose to support sharing the gospel Which each woman who walks through the doors. 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That's preborn.com slash blurry When we put the different bits and pieces of what paul says together It looks as though he's saying envisage this time period Between the events of jesus's life death resurrection ascension and his final coming as the time when There is an ongoing battle because the powers are trying to reclaim lost ground Even though they can't win that battle They're doing their best to try to make death the rule of this world rather than life And it's at that point that I think in Ephesians 6 paul as it were inserts Those who belong to jesus into this scenario And says you are now recruited into being part of this ongoing struggle Yeah, it's you don't have to win the battle because the battle's already been won But you have to hold the line which is why most of the armor that he talks about in Ephesians 6 is defensive Not offensive, you know that that we are stationed now to be um, there's kind of heavenly guardians, but In this heaven plus earth world and we have to hold our bit of the line Against the day when jesus finally finishes the job I i'm not sure if that makes any sense It does But it's it does seem to be what paul is talking about well I I think that You know a lot of times that's what our show is about is kind of getting people in that headspace of like the stuff is First it's like knowledge that it's real It's there The stories we hear are crazy And a lot of times christians are the first people to kind of push back on us of like well What are you guys doing? What's the purpose of your show and it's like well? People are having these experiences and they have nowhere to go their pastor doesn't even give them any answers So it seems like the locals on the ground and like maybe today human beings we we file everything into Like you said a political or an economical problem But what are we supposed to do then as christians? Okay, we we we accept that jesus has defeated the powers Of darkness and now he's coming. You know he's in our space like what does that practically look like because it seems like paul Has to convince them first like hey, yo Look you're you're thinking about this in three dimensional space. You gotta you need to broaden your perspective. But what do we do? What what do we what do we call the how do we live that out? I mean This is where conceiving of ordinary christian practice as Standing at that intersection of heaven and earth is really really important Which is why for instance the Protestant nervousness about the Eucharist or the lord supper Has been so I've been such a problem in my view because that is one of the Key moments the key times and actions where if we know anything about anything That's one of the places where heaven and earth come together So we shouldn't be surprised that there's been such a fuss about it theologically for 500 years and and On the basis of rejection of the medieval way of doing it and so on. Um, so that there are Christian practices of which prayer scripture reading the Eucharist and the care of the poor are perhaps the four primary ones In each of which we are told in scripture that when you're in that process God and humans are coming together heaven and earth are coming together And therefore don't be surprised if there is resistance If you find yourself doing three other things before you pick up the bible to read it in the morning Or if you find yourself lying in bed rather than going to a communion service or whatever it may be Um, you mentioned c.s. Lewis earlier at the beginning of one of c.s. Lewis's science fiction novels The hero is told he has to go and find his way to a lonely house out in the countryside somewhere And he gets off the train and he walks down this dark road and with every pace he takes He thinks this is foolish. I shouldn't be doing this. Um, uh, Bad things waiting for me there. I really ought to term and and actually I've got something to do I I should go back um to town now And finally he makes it to the house and the person he is to meet says so you made it through the barrage then Or words that effect and um, in other words, there was of course enormous spiritual resistance to you coming here And thank the lord that you've sustained it and made it here And I think that goes back to Lewis his own personal spirituality in his own christian life There must have been many times when he believed he was called to do something but found there was huge resistance And let's do anything rather than that. Um, and and that he'd had to work through that and pray through it and grit his teeth And that that's that's what it feels like on the ground um, and there are crazy times as well when The the book that you have there in your hand was originally lectures that I gave in wickliffe hall in oxford And when I was just about to start the last one which was on Ephesians 6 10 and following the bit about spiritual warfare Somebody had just read the passage. I just stood up to speak and all the fire alarms in the building went off And we had to vacate the chapel and go and stand outside for 10 minutes until we got the all clear And it was somebody had burned the toast in one of the apartments or something um, but um, there were two or three friends there with whom I kind of we looked at each other and said well If we will talk about spiritual warfare on a monday morning, don't be surprised if the alarms start going off and and and I mean In a way laughter is a good response to that But I have had this experience so often particularly when lecturing or teaching or preaching about the cross and resurrection that the closer you get To jesus and the cross the closer you get to jesus and the cross because that is the that is the the victory um, and the dark forces seem to know that probably better than we do and you know when you get to do this stuff you take your life in your hands and You have to trust that if you follow the way of vocation Then there will be a victory even if it's tough getting there So that's been my very limited experience But I think I was always very encouraged by reading that passage in lewis because I thought yeah, that's exactly what it's like Um, and that is that is the nature of spiritual warfare It gets into your head and your heart and your imagination Then I shouldn't be doing this. Um, this is really quite irrational and how silly and where did I get this idea from? And this other voice saying nevertheless, you know, you were called to do this you just get on and do it So that that's that's how it is very much on the ground certainly for me Tom I was uh, I was laughing because I think like in the same way we I think when we have episodes where we expose some of the things of darkness We have the same probably have failures with our internet failure with our cameras power outages I can't tell you how many times that's happened when we're We're tackling some of these these heavier topics on on the darkness and it's uh, I just I'm like man, I I'd fall the firearms in my house go off one night when we were praying over our house Um, because we've had a few things so I can just completely relate. I uh, I had a question though because I think there's There's two sides of the coin, right? I think there's Understanding and living in in the reality that we are in a world of war and there's a spiritual warfare But there's also the spectrum and sometimes we see in our space where people swing all the way to one side and everything is A demon. Yeah, everything is demonic. Everything is is spiritual warfare Do you have any practicals for for our listeners to discern the difference between like, you know, general and spiritual warfare and then Yeah, maybe life is we have too much belief in our camp. Yeah people believe too much I I can relate to that. I mean, um I have worked with some churches where the default mode for every problem was Something demonic has just happened and a demon has crept in through this means or that and and my own Normal reaction would be to say Let's not jump to that conclusion. That is that is the The solution of last three courses it were and when I was I think I mentioned um in something I'd written or something I'd said to you guys when I was working as bishop of darum, there was a team of three diocesan exorcists who Worked under my license and with my authority and they would report back to me anything that they'd had to do And it was very much under the radar It was it never made the press Because if it did, you know, the newspapers would have made a big hooha about it But their testimony would be that often when people think there's something possibly demonic It usually isn't but that doesn't mean that there aren't cases where it is Um and sometimes you can actually see Things going on which make you think Yeah, there's there's bad stuff. There's dark stuff happening there. I remember one Easter tide when Um, I was with one of the clergy in question and we were doing the Easter vigil in their church And at the beginning of the Easter vigil, we had the bonfire as you do and it was coming up to midnight And we were walking around the church singing And the the hymns that you do there and when we'd finished that this priest Showed me what they got in their hand, which was a whole roll-up of cassette tape which had been Spread around the outside of the church and I said well, what's that and the answer was Somebody was recording the Lord's prayer backwards as a way of invoking Diabolical opposition to the whole Easter message and we scrunched up that tape and threw it in the bonfire And the hand that had been holding the tape was scorched and I mean, okay, then we just walked into the church Alleluia Christ's risen. Yeah, and sure I'm very glad that I've had only very minimal contact with this kind of thing But I just know that there are people out there who do invoke dark powers and sometimes the dark powers say good Yeah, thank you. We can use that but that Equally equally and I would stress this as again, c.s. Lewis in his book screw tape letters says there's two mistakes you can make One is to deny anything demonic at all Any satanic stuff and the other is to see demons behind every bush. I mean you you guys know that. Yeah, do you feel like That's what God does a lot with the characters in the bible He's taken him on a journey to kind of put balance inside of them and giving him experiences to know which one is which There there was a book You recall the character Scott peck who wrote the road less traveled um, you will know he wrote a book people of the lie and he was a practicing psychotherapist and many many people had come to him with many many problems And usually he was able to help them unravel their problems this way and that but there was a small number Of people who'd come to him with problems where he reckoned There was something else going on which he was not expecting He was a secular psychotherapist demons and all that were not in his brief at all But where he had to conclude that there were dark forces at work It's quite a it's quite an upsetting book, but I found it a very realistic book in that As I say he was a secular psychotherapist He didn't want to have anything to do with all that stuff He wasn't a practicing christian when he was reaching these conclusions But he just reckoned that there was a kind of Residuum and and sure when you look at the stories in the bible And go back through the old testament say there's all kinds of times when we can see People getting things wrong and bad things happening Where the bible doesn't say it was a demon who made them do it or anything like that because again and again It's it's human folly But then when we stand back from the story and think of the great purposes of god And of the way in which those purposes are being opposed then you can sometimes say There is darkness out there doing its stuff just like sometimes in some of those glorious stories And when people are afraid and and and you know like the story in second kings where Elisha's servant says, you know, it's all gone horribly wrong and Elisha says lord open his eyes And the lord opens his eyes and the mountain is full of horses and chariots of far Around the prophet, you know in other words the unseen realm matters The bible doesn't draw your attention to it that often When it does it's a kind of a reassurance of what is in fact the case all the time But we humans are not supposed to be kind of living in that Um awareness because it might easily make us Back off from taking up our own responsibilities. We are called to be humans not angel watchers And humans have vocations of things to do in god's world And if we were just Spending all our time wondering when an angel was gonna float into view to solve all our problems Then we wouldn't be addressing them ourselves Did you know that only six percent of people ever actually Accomplish their goal of reading the bible in a year and I think one of the big issues is you end up hitting leviticus and you're confused It's chaotic. How the heck do I make sense of these weird clean unclean rituals and sacrifices? And what we really want is for the story to make sense So i'm really excited to announce for the very first time. I've never actually seen this ever before a Read the bible in a year plan where we're going to look at the stranger parts of scripture We're going to take the things that are odd weird Leviathan giants Nephilim The unseen realm and cosmic battle and we're going to bring coherence to that We're not going to protect you from your bibles We're going to explore it with you with honesty and humility and really excited We've got for the first time ever the stranger theology journal in a year working through the bible This is going to be the way for you to keep track of your reading plan We've got 12 exclusive essays in here infographics and a prayer list I mean, I think this is going to be really helpful for you to read the cosmic narrative of the scriptures So grab the stranger theology the bible in a year journal today You can grab it on amazon and i'm telling you this is going to change your life Not because of what we've done But because it's the scriptures and the scriptures come alive when we understand the cosmic narrative of the text Tom I I had a question I um made my last question on the spiritual warfare part of what paul's talking about in effusions and Your thoughts I know that like you said when we look at the armor of god, it's a very defensive posture you know the work of the cross is The the death toll for or null for the for the darkness, but crisis continuing to place these principalities and powers under his feet If we act in defensive, what does an offensive look like for our calling? Is that the great commission? Is that a spreading the gospel? Is that well? Yes? I mean the the the one offensive weapon in the list which he has in effusion six is the sword of the spirit Which is the word of god and in the early church the word of god That phrase the word of god didn't refer to the bible as such much of which wasn't written at the time of course a new testament anyway But the word of god as in the book of acts is the announcement of the good news That the crucified jesus has been raised from the dead and is the lord of the world and that word Again and again applied to whichever situation Is the word which slices through things and creates a new context. So yes tom you have you've You know a long career. How do you view? What jesus is doing In the last few days before he's crucified as spiritual warfare Versus just getting these human beings that he's been been following him forever to understand what's going to happen What do you think he's doing in the unseen realm in the last few days? Yeah, I mean those last few days and assuming that what we have in those last few chapters of mark mathieu and luc at least Is is pretty roughly what's going on in those last few days though? It's quite possible that the editing process has pulled together different things He is confronting of course the temple and the temple authorities And the people who assume that they are the the guardians of the law i.e the Pharisees I mean the Sadducees are the the temple authorities and the chief priests And then the Pharisees are a kind of a pressure group and jesus is confronting them and arguing with them basically about the kingdom of god and pushing them towards a realization That the temple is itself under judgment And the temple was supposed to be the place where heaven and earth met That and as I say this is why I talk about the dangerous overlap of heaven and earth that if The people who are supposed to be operating a heaven and earth system are getting it wrong and are abusing it for their own ends Etc etc Then the judgment is all the more fierce and the way in which people in jesus day were using the temple as a as a kind of a talisman a badge of you know And what Jeremiah had to say to them you can't just go around saying the temple of the lord the temple of the lord the temple of the lord God is going to come and tear down your temple and then what's going to happen the world will go back to Tohu wabohu being without form and void because if heaven and earth pull apart Chaos come again, but then jesus is Explaining that to his followers that yes the temple is going to be destroyed But that something new is happening in its place and of course it's Right at the end when he takes his followers off to the upper room And has this extraordinary Quasi Passover meal with them and many people including many jewish commentators have seen this parallel That the judgment on the temple and then the establishment of a fellowship around the broken bread and the poured out wine These kind of balance each other that jesus is launching something Which is where we still are and it's very significant that in john 13 It's at the table that the satan enters judas and jesus has to say Do what you do quickly and john has that amazing line in chapter 13 judas went out and it was night And the greek is very clipped and dead nukes and there's a sort of sense of the horror of darkness Judas has gone out into that but so that there's the sense throughout the whole thing of the spiritual warfare of the dark powers Trying to distract to lead jesus himself off track John 12 now is my soul troubled. What shall I say father save me from this? I know this is why i've come to this are father glorify your name. That's rather like C. S. Lewis is here walking down the road saying shouldn't I turn back and the answer is uh, no actually this is why i've come here so so that the explanation to the followers goes in the context of The spiritual battle which jesus is engaged with whose earthly correlate is his denunciation of the temple and its authorities and his um Arguments with the Pharisees and the herodians and so on and it's all about the kingdom of god and it's it's over determined There are so many different strands of meaning and they all come rushing together in that last week And and it's hard to lay it all out, but that's the heart of it. Okay, I mean for like us not, you know Normal folks over here. I'm not too bright over here on my end, but so you're saying There's sort of like they cut off the water supply between heaven and earth and the temple was sort of the mechanism Which they controlled that flow, right? And then the moment jesus is at the table It's kind of reestablished. Oh, this is how heaven and earth are going to collide right here at this table And that's when satan rolls in and takes over judas Because is that sort of that moment was like a shot in the dark to the dark? Oh, oh, it's happening It's happening right now. Is that what you're saying? I mean that that that is that is the very strong sense Because we are not told again in the story Um that satan is working through judas, but we're just assuming Because satan has entered judas at the beginning of chapter 13 Yeah That then when judas brings the people to arrest jesus in the garden This is what it looks like. Of course the word satan means the accuser and what's going on is that the powers that be are accusing jesus and the accusation continues To the point of the crucifixion where particularly in the synoptic gospels you have The mocking on the cross he saved others, but he can't save himself Let the messiah come down from the cross and then we'll believe him and all of that stuff um And it's it's exactly cognate with the temptations at the start of the Gospel narrative if you are the son of god command these stones to be made bread etc Now if you are the son of god come down for the cross from the cross and we will believe you In other words all the way that the the gospel narrative is framed as The the battle with the enemy who is determined not to let jesus do what he has to do and be who he has to be and uh, I find that um Both exciting and dramatic and really very comforting So i wasn't asked though like as we as jesus leaves right and then he gives his his charge to To the disciples how then as we've sort of framed this conversation as like this where this battle the spiritual warfare how then does does the church and paul speaks a lot about the church, but how then does the church play into this Battle right because I I think I know you write about this in the book And I wanted to have you just kind of uh espouse on it a little bit, but um Yeah, I don't think it's an accident that we see such fracture in the church, right because it It seems it is the vessel by which we the powers of darkness are defeated here, right? Yeah, absolutely I mean one of my big problems as a new testament Exeggis is that I see so clearly that the early church Were under this strong imperative to be united to be to unite across Boundaries so that if Ephesians one has as its strap line That in the messiah heaven earth coming together Ephesians two Focuses in verses 11 to 22 on the coming together of judaean and gentile in christ And paul actually uses the image of the breaking down of the dividing wall Which is an image that comes from the temple in jesusland where you have the wall saying no gentiles pass this point on pain of death And then sure enough he's thinking of the temple because at the end of that chapter he says therefore We are growing into a holy temple in the lord because he has come to dwell in our midst by the spirit And so the idea of the church as the temple But the church which is the temple consisting precisely of the coming together of the previously irreconcilable pairing of judaean and gentile and then obviously that broadens out In in Colossians he says neither barbarians, githian, slave, free, etc. In other words, it's when the church is being the church, which is a community of the unlike revelation seven The community of every nation and people and kidnured and tribe and tongue That then the principalities and powers shudder and it's why to this day The principalities and powers that think they run the present world One of whose instantiations is the newspapers and other of whose instantiations is secular government They like nothing better than to watch the church having a punch up and Splitting and dividing over this or that issue because then they don't need to pay any attention to what the church says On the rare occasions when the church can get its act together and say hang on now in the name of god This is where we are Then the principalities and powers have to take notice and I think that's exactly what's going on in Ephesians three Where he says that through the church The manifold wisdom of god might be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places and that That word manifold it's it's an odd little greek word polo poichilos, which means multicolored It's like a gorgeous tapestry or a wonderful flower garden or something and the idea is that the church by being this new creation This you know this garden where every flower is blooming That's what says to the principalities and powers. Hey guys new creation has begun And this is what it looks like and then of course the second half of the letter is paul say so if that's what we are Then here's how it works out and the first great tranche of that Ephesians 4 1 to 16 is of course unity Many ministries all contributing to the unity of the body and so it goes tom. Do you feel like it's confusing to? ancient and modern christians because it happens You know, it's like everyone's expecting the firework show to go off and everything and we know it's happening But nothing it's like it's it fizzles out it gets dark Everyone leaves the mountain and it's like what just happened, you know Is it kind of like we just because it happens maybe in the unseen realm and in that? space that Humans are left confused both then and now Yeah, I mean as with the Transfiguration where jesus takes peter james and john up the mountain and is transfigured before them Yeah, and then they come down the mountain the vision fades they come down the mountain and they're faced with A challenge which they can't meet and only jesus can meet it. It's the exorcism of a boy And it's as though you've seen this now. This is actually the reality. This is what's really going on Now you're going to have to live with that memory and that hope of a world where that will Fully be realized so that um, it seems to me that christian life regularly consists of those moments where Suddenly everything is clear where suddenly a prayer that has been prayed a thousand times over the last 10 years Is suddenly finally gloriously answered? And then there's a sense that now we know Um, that we are on the right track. God has answered that prayer Therefore, we weren't wasting our time And of course part of the difficulty here is that it would be much neater easier for us If that was so all the time if every day we could pray lord I need this this this and this and then here they come through the front door Prayer in my experience of that and many others just isn't like that It's about persistence and you wouldn't be told to persist unless there was going to be a temptation not to persist so its perseverance in prayer and in holiness and Of course the the other stuff in Ephesians 4 and 5 and 6 is very much the establishment of these little cells Which are god reflecting including the family cell including not least husband and wife Um, which paul says dramatic things about at the end of Ephesians 5 as you know And that really goes with the coming together of heaven and earth and judaean and gentile the husband and wife these are ways of Announcing to the powers That god the creator who made heaven and earth who made male and female etc etc This god is in charge and his project is going ahead and that's why there's enormous opposition To the coming together of heaven and earth. That's why deism and epic erism are so so popular Enormous opposition to the coming together of different ethnic groups. That's why we have black churches and white churches Just down the street from each other paul would be absolutely horrified. We've colluded with that And just as of course likewise Marriage has been under massive attack over the last several generations Because these are signs of new creation and that's all within that Model of the of the ongoing battle of first chrism's 15 and that that's why it's tough But that's why it's ultimately glorious tom. There's a uh, you tackle some of some some will be considered controversial things in the book Of course, there's some passages and effusions that are very the people who established their theology, huh? Right and I wanted to get to some of that stuff here as we yeah, yeah before we run out of time but um, can you talk a bit about Your thoughts on paul's language on on predestination and paul's views on that we start there and I'd love to get into End times as well. Of course, you know, we're an 80s themed show So kurt cameron was the 80s. Of course, we all grew up with left behind and and that stuff as well But I want to want to get to the thoughts on crowd on in times but can we get to first the predestination part because you have a very different view than or Well, it's not different view. It's you have a view that that it will run Counter I should say to when I was when I was working through effusions yet one more time And I know I've lectured on effusions many times over the last 40 years or so But when I was doing it this time round What really struck me I was trying to pay special attention to god's purpose in choosing his people and You might expect granted a normal sort of calvinist theology That it would be he chose us in him before the foundation of the world so that we could go to heaven and be with him forever That's not what paul says. He chose us In him before the world is made so as to be holy and irreproachable before him in love And for for ordained us to be adopted as his sons and daughters and again and again and again It's so that the church might display to the world the reality of new creation And that's why one of my theme songs in this book and I kind of enjoyed doing it in lectures as well Was to talk about the church as the small working model of new creation and the predestination Is god saying i'm going to call these people and these people and these people and they by their Unity by their love by their holiness by their witness by their putting on the spiritual armor They will be part of this advanced guard of the time when god will be all in all and that that's that will be their calling and I was working on this just after i was well two years after i was working on roman's eight I don't if you know the book into the heart of romans, which was published a couple of years ago And there in roman's eight twenty eight twenty nine thirty classic predestinarian passage I I went back to it and looked up The passages in isire which paul is directly quoting and there it's about the vocation of israel To be the people who display god's glory to the world And that's a very different perspective. Yeah from oh, yeah, he's predestined us so that we could go to heaven You know roman's eight isn't actually about Here's how we finally go to heaven of course There is glorious future for god's people after death Both immediately after death with the messiah, which is far better and then ultimately in the resurrection and the new creation But that's not what this passage is about It's about being chosen and called and equipped to be genuine human beings in the here and now and forever It's crazy. I mean I like that. Well, I think a lot of us as humans we want sort of a political You know person to come in and save us and obviously that was the Jesus kind of humbly slips into the world and humbly leaves In a way and it's still debated today if jesus was the messiah amongst you know many Many groups of people because of They were expecting this big announcement This big political takeover economic takeover. We're going to run the world now. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean it didn't happen I well excepted except The way they wanted it. It didn't happen the way they wanted quite quite quite Uh, I my mind goes automatically to mark chapter 10 and it's parallel in matthew where james and john say to jesus Uh, can we be your right and left hand man when you come in your kingdom? Yeah, and they have in mind a king Yeah, quite like herod except without the marital complications And that they were that that jesus will be running from jerusalem He'd be running the world be running judia and then his dominion will spread out into the world because that's what the psalms say That's what the prophets say and jesus says you don't understand guys The rulers of this world do that stuff by bossing and bullying and crushing people everything in their path We're gonna do it the other way By the one who's Going to be first being the servant and the slave of all because the son of man didn't come to be served But to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many so i sigh again And see i see as symptomatic of our problem that many western teachers have taken that last line mark 10 45 to give his life as a ransom for many And have seen rightly that it's an evocation of isiah 53 and have said there we are that substitutionary atonement end of argument Job done without realizing that that line comes in mark 10 as the redefinition of power That this is what true power is going to look like and that's why Then with jesus death resurrection and ascension The disciples return from the mount of the ascension to jesus with great joy. They're not saying oh, dear He's gone again. Just when we thought we had him back They're delighted because they know that he is now at god's right hand ruling the world and So there is that sense that power has been redefined and jesus now has it but each generation it seems to me Especially our Is still expecting some great big event Um, and of course the second coming will be a great big event But people as you say are looking in the wrong direction Well, it kind of makes sense why why paul's going on then trying to because we we come loaded into the story even when jesus is on the scene Like we're gonna have a huge kingdom We're gonna take over and he's like no no no so then paul's coming along after the fact and people Do you think people still believe this and so yeah I mean, this is the extraordinary thing that when paul is writing Ephesians granted It's a circular to different churches in the area But still there's a little group of 15 just up the road here and there's maybe 20 down the road in kilosy And there's maybe another 30 in the church in leodicea and he's saying to them That you are seated in heavenly places in messiah jesus. What on earth is this crazy talk? And yet when we look back now 2000 years, you know, i was in church on sunday afternoon Here in oxford and there were hundreds and hundreds of people in that church And then when we were filing out the next lot of a few hundred were filing in and if i'd gone around the rest of oxford The say that pattern was repeated in churches and chapels all over the city, you know This this thing is alive. It's we've fooled ourselves We believed what the press have wanted to tell us that we're just a shrinking minority But actually there are people celebrating jesus lordship all over the place and doing so with with delight and with real effectiveness tom The other thing that you just kind of mentioned on i wanted you just to take a moment to Speak on is that the people waiting for this end for this this second coming this end in times event and of course in Ephesians There's this catching up. There's paul's time in this language, which has been A lot of dispensationalists, especially are saying this is this is the rapture coming. What are your what are your thoughts? You know visiting Ephesians for the countless times you have on what paul's talking about here and what that what that actually means Which passage in Ephesians you have in mind because the normal rapture passage is first Thessalonians. Oh, sorry. I'm talking about Thessalonians, but I uh Where do I have my notes in here? Yeah. Yeah, I mean the interpretation of first Thessalonians 4 um has been really messed up by people who are coming at it with with a typical Western literalism because paul is very good at mixing his metaphors and he he he pulls metaphors from the surrounding culture and from Biblical story, etc. You'll notice that at the beginning of first Thessalonians 5 He says that the thief is coming in the night So the pregnant woman is going to labor so that you mustn't get drunk But you must stay away can put on your armor and he says all that in the space of about three verses And and you know these different images are not meant to be a construct of oh my goodness There's a thief at the door and now the pregnant woman is going to labor. No, come on guys. These are images This is a mixed metaphor in the same way. He talks about the lord descending from heaven He's the echoes there are of moses coming down the mountain with the Torah He talks about us being caught up to be with him Which is straight out of daniel 7 where the son of man the people of the saints of the most high Are exalted to be with god now ruling the world and then when he talks about meeting the lord in the air The the word for meeting their apantesis is the word that you'd use if cesar was visiting one of his colonies And the citizens would go out to greet him not in order to stay out in the country and have a picnic out there But to welcome him royally into the city so that um I mean in terms of the history of dispensationalism. I hope you guys know the recent book by um by um, alat hummel called the rise and fall of dispensationalism has really really significant Um, uh, if you don't know it, let me just gonna pick it up and shape the name Please I got the first name wrong is Daniel hummel the rise and fall of dispensational dispensationalism Taught me a great deal because that this is an american phenomenon That the only places in the rest of the world that that actually believe that stuff are places where american missionaries have gone To tell them about the rapture and so on because it makes no sense. It's an escapist theology It plays into this idea of I need to fly away. I need to be somewhere else. This world is not my home I'm just a passing through and then when you read genesis when you read the sermon on the mount when you read revelation, especially It really makes no sense. And so everything else gets tangled up and particularly Particularly it becomes the political tool of people who want to say Oh, there's going to be an armageddon and the jewish people are going to be doing this that and the other Therefore our middle eastern policy now must be like this and that and the other and I want to say that's very dangerous damaging unbiblical Please stop and gain more wisdom on how biblical eschatology works. Um, and particularly Recognize that with the death and resurrection and ascension of jesus God has already established his kingdom on earth as in heaven and has entrusted us With being the people who live it out and thereby Sign to the world that jesus is lord and the powers aren't love it I have I have one last question. Uh, well, maybe two because that's how I do it here but um, you know after writing 80 books and going through, um, a lot of experiences that, uh, you know We can't really talk about today, but I we could probably talk forever How would you write this book differently if you wrote it 30 years ago 40 years ago? What have you learned over that your career that has shaped the way you write this? I mean, I have learned A huge amount and uh, if you look back at my little commentary on the prison epistles Paul for everyone the prison letters you'd probably see several things here because I wrote that 20 years ago and Somehow in the last quarter of a century since the turn of the century I think the two big things that have occurred in my own thinking one has been the temple And the way in which the narrative of scripture focuses on the tabernacle in the wilderness in exodus 40 And then solomon's temple in first kings eight and the way in which those themes are retrieved and reworked massively in the new testament Ephesians two being an obvious example and then the vocation of humans Very much humans made in god's image and with psalm eight in the background to recognize that uh, When the psalm says he's made us little lower than the angels to crown us with glory and honor Putting all things in subjection under their feet under human feet that this is the vocation of humans This is revelation chapter five The lamb was slain in order to rescue humans for god Not in order that they could go off to heaven and sit on the cloud playing a harp forever But so that they could be the royal priesthood ruling Over with sharing god's rule sharing christ's rule over the new heavens and the new earth I had a graduate student when I was in um St. Andrews who did a phd on this her name is hailey gorenson jakeb. You may know her work But but she did a stunning piece of exegesis on roman's eight and and brought to light in ways that I had managed to ignore a lot of stuff in In the area of psalm eight and how it's all about becoming genuinely human And the title of the book is something to do with being in god's image Um, you you could find that and put it on your screen. Yeah, do I have time for one more? Okay, quick. All right. All right real quick because my wife is about to put this up Okay, I mean I would I'd be amiss if I didn't ask you the question about the strangest Verse in the new testament that I thought that kind of was a big launching part of the show In matthew 27 the tombs broke open The bodies of many holy people died were raised to life and they came out of the tombs after jesus I always thought there's something the church is not Talking about this is one of the craziest things i've ever read and and I love that it's in there What do you think about that and then we can wrap up? I don't have a a strong take on it I wrote a few paragraphs about it in my book resurrection of the son of god Um, it only occurs of course in matthew's gospel Which I mean many things only occur in matthew's gospel many things only occur in each of the gospels except mark which is shorter So, um, we can't say um, well obviously it didn't happen or obviously it did or whatever so But the the strangest thing about it is of course that in first christians 15 Paul says that jesus was raised As the first fruits and that at his coming those who belong to him will be raised and we want to say well What about those guys in matthew from matthew 27? And I I don't think paul has anything to say about them Um, it seems to me that just like Various odd things have happened do happen in the world. So it's perfectly possible to think that there were some Strange appearances apparitions and people in jesus were aware of strange things going on and what a wild night it was But then then what are you going to say? Some of the early church fathers reading matthew 27 Came up with the idea that these people were still Now that they've been raised from the dead they were still alive and they were living in jesusland And you and you could go and talk to them now. I don't think that view caught on But um, so what are you going to say that when morning came they all went and lay back down again? I mean that's that that's that's just as weird. So I do not have a good theory I know that some people have picked up that story and said there you are the whole thing It's just a mess of fantasy and legend and then they've gone on to hint that maybe all the resurrection stories are fantasy and legend as well so You know once you see that slippery slope You don't want to go too near the edge of it because somebody will come up behind you and give you a shove And as you know for quite other quite other reasons. I want to hold firm by the Reliable historicity of jesus bodily resurrection. Well, I don't think the weird here Hurts. I think the weird here helps And uh, yeah, maybe you know like I I think it helped me dive deeper in and go There's something there that I don't understand and there's this whole I think that's I think that's absolutely fair enough I mean the astronomers as we recording this show the astronomers are talking right now about something They're not sure what it is. Um, whether it's a comet or or a Bit of moon dust or mars dust or something which they're tracking right now as we speak And which they're really not sure What it is where it's come from? Whether there is intelligence behind it or whatever and I read something just the other day about the star of bethlehem And different theories about um, maybe that you've probably done shows on this And maybe maybe that was a comet. Maybe that was a collocation of planets Yeah, um Strange things do happen and sometimes those strange things are like 2000 years away from each other But then suddenly something else happens and the scientists say oh We didn't know that could happen and the answer is of course you don't because it doesn't happen that often But just maybe sometimes they do now that could of course be a way of saying Therefore it's open season for any wacky miracle that you want to invent Yeah And obviously the new testament doesn't do that the new testament is remarkably short of Wacky miracles. I mean even jesus multiplying loaves and walking on the water That's that's very much in line with bits of the old testament and it kind of makes sense within that world, but Let's not go one if you ever want to get strange again You're always welcome to talk about the strange things on blurry creatures. We're grateful. It's been a complete honor tom Thank you for the for the time. Um, the book is the vision of a fission's the news book And thank you. Thank you again until folks if they want to find the book. I'm sure they can find it on amazon Along with all your other work you can tell folks where they could find it if they're if they're looking if there's a place You'd like to send them We could talk forever. We'll let us let us know and uh, I really enjoyed this. I really really enjoyed this. This has been a complete honor for us Thank you. Thank you very much indeed guys. Okay. Have a good rest of your suffer. All right. See you tom Bye You You You You You You You