A Pleasure Retreat w/ Pamela Madsen | Szn. 3 Ep. 17

Hi, it's Dr. Jen Kennedy. I'm a sexologist and couples therapist. The Pleasure Project podcast is about sex and relationships. So this includes discussions on desire, dysfunction, dissatisfaction, exploration of all things sex related. So sometimes I'll do toy reviews and we'll look at trends. And sometimes I'll also enlist other experts. We'll increase your insight and enhance your pleasure. So tune in. Hey, so have you wondered about going on a retreat that is specifically geared around having an orgasm, feeling your own sexual pleasure, learning about your body? Well, if so, this is the podcast for you because I'm talking to Pamela Madsen. She has been running back to the body for 15 years, which is a sexological bodywork retreat. And she talks all about it. So they've got practitioners that help women specifically tune into their bodies and figure this stuff out. She talks about women coming in in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, even their ease who want to understand what do they need. And it's a whole bunch of different avenues in it's not just sex, it's understanding their bodies, understanding psychologically, physically, emotionally, sort of what do they need. And this transformation that happens in a week of retreat, it's pretty interesting, it's pretty compelling. So we just kind of break it down and understand sort of how does she help these women and what is her philosophy. So tune in. Alright, so welcome back. My guest today is Pamela Madsen. She is a certified somatic sex educator, speaker, writer and retreat leader. She is a fearless advocate for women's health and integrated sexuality who leverages her raw honesty and wit to strip the stigma from women's wellness, female desire, body image and infertility. Pamela was the founder and former executive director of the American Fertility Association. She is the president of Back to the Body Retreats. Now in its 15th year, Back to the Body offers monthly women's retreats, held at locations around the globe, including their expansive Joshua Tree compound. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you. So nice to have you here. Lovely to be here. You gotta get settled in when we do this podcast, you know. Yeah. Lighting alright and where's my chair? Did I remember to bring a drink? Well, and I see you've got some of the some of the stuff from like what I what I associate with the desert in the background. Oh, I see that. I wear desert colors now. Yeah. Browns and yellows and whites. So you see red and black. So the desert does do its thing. And it's it was so interesting is it's July in the desert and people say, how do you deal with the summer? I was cold this morning outside. You know, it was like chilly. We had a beautiful desert breeze. I'm a New Yorker. And I tell you, it's nicer here. We're in the high desert. And the high desert is like a very different than like Palm Springs, even though it's 45 minutes away. We're like 15 degrees cooler, but enough of the weather. Yeah. So let's get to it. I mean, I know that's a magical place, which is probably why you've called it called it the home for your retreats mostly. Yeah. So what drew you to this work? The sexological body work? Oh my gosh. When I was the I have a book published by Rodale called Seamus. How I ditched the diet, got naked and found true pleasure, but somehow got home in time to cook dinner. And that kind of tells us the title is almost the answer to your question. I was 40 and a very famous advocate for infertility, supporting people. Wasn't an advocate for the disease of infertility. We all should have that infertility. Right. You should have it. The treatment. Right. Yes. We care support of people who are going through infertility. And I became during that time, I became very aware of the dissociation that women, men who were going through infertility were actually having from reproduction and sex, because we go through a lot trying to have a baby that has to do with sexuality, reproduction. But then it becomes body betrayal, which happens with other things like breast cancer, etc. And during that time, my friends were having affairs. And back then, 15, 20 years ago, we didn't have that. We didn't have, you know, monogamish, polyamory. Like that didn't exist. Yeah. Because we didn't know where to find it. It existed. We just didn't have names for it. Right. Right. Well, people called cheating. Yeah. You know, it was just cheating, you know, love affairs. Yeah. And that was it. And I wasn't going to do that. And I was looking for something different, but I saw my friends having a wonderful time. They were sex goddesses. They were out there playing. And I wasn't. And so through a game or so I've learned about sacred intimacy and sexual logical body work. And so I went on an exploration and I experienced sexual logical body work and I explored it deeply. And even while I was still the executive director of the American Fertility Association, I dove so deeply in that I wanted to take the training. I never thought in a million years I'd be doing what I'm doing now. Like that wasn't on the menu. I just, yes. One thing kind of led to the next of like exploration. And 15 years later in an incredible space in Joshua Schraer. You know, doing this. For listeners who don't know, let's tell them, I guess, what is sex logical body work? What, like, what does that actually mean? Well, the sexual logical body work is a certified and legally recognized profession in the state of California. Can't speak for the states, but in California, our certification is recognized and legal. And I just checked on that the other day with my lawyer. We're still good, right? We're still good. We're still good in California. There are so many changes right now, you know, around all this stuff, but yes, we're still good. Sex logical body work uses voice, sound, movement and touch. And we have strict ethical guidelines. Practitioners keep their clothes on. They wear gloves for intimate touch. We don't have relationships. The practitioners don't have relationships with clients outside of our container. We have safe ports, women, me, but I have, I have a huge team. I've been around a while and we're very successful. And also I'm lucky to have an incredibly large team of psychotherapists and other sex educators who work on the team. And so we blend, you know, we have built on sexual logical body work. We now have trademarked the back to the body method because it's not, well, one thing, sexual logical body work can be sometimes sterile. Yeah, because there's so concerned about the emphasis on the client. The client should only care about themselves. No connection with the practitioner. You know what? I don't buy it, especially for women. Women with intimacy. It's too clinical. Right. No, you know, we could go to the gynecologist. You know, I didn't want that. And so gradually over the 15 years, like we slowly, we slowly dipped into those waters that, you know, we titrated ourselves. How does this feel? How are the women doing? And so now we really, we do a scandalous, right? We do eye contact with clients. You know, my practitioner's dance with them in a session. They'll cuddle. I love that. They need to be cuddled. And sometimes, you know, it's relational. It's relational, right? That's what we, we, we react as humans to touch, to cite, to voice, to write. So you're helping their systems respond. And they learn about boundaries in a really unique way and what is real. So what do I mean by that? What I mean by that is they can be in a very intimate, I'll use the word sacred container with a practitioner. And my, my work is usually with women and I mostly, most of the women want male practitioners. We have female practitioners on staff and sometimes a woman will request to work with a woman. I was wondering about that. Yeah. No, we have females. Generally, we have heteronormative women or questioning bisexual women who also like men. So it kind of works out that way. And so the woman has this experience is beautiful to admit, probably maybe the best touch she's had in her life. Yeah. Because these practitioners are Epicurean. I mean, they've done more work with women than most sexual logical body workers in the world because they have these seven day arcs and immersion and they do it month after month after month. So, you know, it's very hard for a male practitioner out in the world to get clients, women, they get men hard for them. So these practitioners are unique in their practice. So what I tell women is what you're experiencing in the, in the practice room is real. You're feeling connection. You have attention. You feel held. You feel supported. Sometimes they don't have a rodent touch. Sometimes all they want to do is cry in the arms of a man. And just to have that attention is so rare. Exactly. Attention and presence for 90 minutes, two hours, three hours, depending on what the program is, but the women also learn they can have an intimate experience with someone and then close the door and go over burger at lunch with the practitioners. What happened in session belongs there. And so they learn that you can have multiple relationships with people and they'll all valid and real and have their place. So there's some learning in that too. How does that, that's, that's interesting because how does the transference not get sort of drippy into. I would think the participants would get very attached to the practitioners and that that might get a little bit confusing and there might even be some, yeah, like attachment or jealousy or if that might arise. We don't say we're jealousy here. Everybody gets a slice of bread. So there's no competition between the women. And in fact, sisterhood, you know, we were studied. Dr. Betsy Crane from Wynne University published a paper about our retreats. And sisterhood was like the number one or number two outcome. They were great. Other women. So no, not much jealousy or competition because we figured out how to do that. After sessions, they're met by their safe port and they're brought to what we call the nest with other women that are just coming out of session. And they cuddle each other and they laugh with each other and they tell stories. Because they're in this open space where their needs have been met and they feel receptivity and openness. And sometimes they're sad. Sometimes they didn't go the way they wanted. Sometimes your expectation was a met. And then the other women take care of her and they nest together. And it's really, really beautiful. And sometimes just all giggles and laughter and sweetness, you know, to walk in and then they all are in their robes. We have a special bed. It's not a bed, it's a couch, but it's a huge couch and it can fit like 12 people on it. And so they cuddle up there and sisterhoods builds. And many of our women now are having their own meetups back to the body. And they go out dancing together and it's a beautiful thing. Because they've been through this. Yeah. Across this threshold and they've been through this experience that, I mean, to come to something like this and to spend a week where you've decided that you're going to be this vulnerable and you're going to show up in this arc as you've described it, right? It's a seven day retreat where you're going to allow yourself to be in this space repeatedly. That's transformational, I would imagine. And so the other women that have also participated and gone on this, you know, parallel journey. Yeah, that's pretty cool. And they could actually talk to them. They don't have to. So oftentimes they talk about, well, I don't know if I can talk about these things with my friends at home. And sometimes their therapists aren't open. Yeah. Because the therapists don't understand the work. Well, what typically who, like what is the expectation coming in? Like who, what is the profile of the woman? Like generally age. And then also what is the expectation as she's arriving for, what does she think she's going to get out of this? Well, women are so different, right? So what I can tell you is the average age is between 40 and 70. Okay. And I have a couple of 80 year olds popping around and they're wild. I love it. We have a few 30 year olds. But if you, if you wanted the bell curve, I used to say 40 to 60. And now I'm saying four 70. And my seven year olds look like my 50 year olds. So it's very hard, you know, to tell women a part at this point. They come for lots of reasons. Some women want to learn how to play. Some women want to learn how to receive because they have, they have trauma or they've never been asked what do you desire? What do you want? Some women come because they think they need to be fixed. Some women come, we have very famous sex educators. Be fixed, meaning like, like they've been told they're frigid or broken. Or their vagina was too tight or they're too fat or too skinny or too old. And they're fighting back. And they want all the things. And sometimes they want to heal trauma, whether it's capital T trauma or lowercase T trauma. It's hard to be a woman in this world and not have trauma. So we just assume everybody has it. Is there group work as well as individual work? Absolutely. First of all, there are workshops. Okay. There are workshops with me or possibly another sex therapist who's on the team, maybe running a workshop. There could be, you know, in the evening, we do all kinds of special events for the women as well as silly fun things. Like across the street for me is an old time bowling alley. And we might go on a Friday night and the name of our team is the Pussycats. Of course, of course it is. And we take over a couple of lanes and they have a fantastic time or it's singing bowls and tarot cards and all those things, you know, but this hiking. So depends what we are. You know, retreat and Sicily, we're going to be eating a lot and having food excursions. So when we travel, we're going to Thailand with an Uber mastery group. We're stopping in Japan for five days. So, you know, travel, experience, sometimes simple things, workshops, play, cooking lessons, you know, it's all over the board. It depends what the focus of the retreat is. But that's sort of the window dressing. It's not the work, right? Yeah. The work really happens on the table or in workshop and then fancy food and a private chef and flowers in your room, the window dressings. And we like them. Don't you like them? I love them. Right. I love those things. Those sounds delightful. Yeah. But it's part of the experience of treating yourself well and feeling like you're cocooning into this retreat mindset of I deserve pleasure. Absolutely. So sex, logical body work is the foundation of what we do. But we've morphed into the back to the body method, which is the combination of it's not one thing. It's the entire pie. It could even be bolding with the girls and the practitioners is freeing. They can jump up and down and root and let themselves part of this too. It's all of this is happening in a parallel process of they are doing this work and they're being witnessed by peers and it's not weird and everyone's just sort of in community, right? It's like, I've chosen to do this. And everybody knows I'm doing this and I'm still a cloke. Okay. You know, that's empowering. Which true, which true, Dr. Kennedy is that you don't have to be broken. You know, you don't have to have trauma. We have a lot of famous sex educators who come through here and a lot of very well-known therapists, few judges. Why, why are they coming through when they are therapists in the world of sex education or very famous names? Because they need a place to evolve. They need practitioners who are skilled enough to help to hold somebody who is very semantic and very embodied so that they can continue to evolve because sexuality and embodiment is not linear. It's just not. And if allowed, who we are as erotic beings with our self confidence, with our sovereignty, when we do finance workshops, we just had a six month class on sovereignty and we were talking credit cards, you know, so helping women become sovereign in their sexuality, but we also look at other parts of their lives. Yeah. So they can really fly. Yeah. It's like, how do you enjoy your life and yourself and your psyche and your body? It's a on all fronts matter. Great. Women's thing is we're going to take a quick break for commercial. A quick pause here to share something that I've been working on that I think you will really appreciate, especially if you've ever felt confused or disconnected from your sexual desire. It's a self paced course that I created for women who want a better understanding of their sexual desire, especially if it's felt confusing, inconsistent or hard to access. A lot of us are taught that desires should just be their effortless, spontaneous, always on, but that is not the reality for most people. And when it's not, it can leave you feeling frustrated or like something is wrong with you. 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Now back to the episode. I love that idea, though, is that sort of the wellness of the whole woman, right? It's not just in this single lane of like dropping in because as a sex therapist, people come in and say, okay, I need to fix my sex life. And I'm like, your sex life is not this single flip switch, right? It's tethered to everything. It's tethered to everything. And so you can't just send a woman into a room and say, okay, this is where your clitoris is located. Now let's figure this out. And then you're good to go. Right. That's why you're wisely saying, no, these practitioners need to assess what's going on and sometimes it's cuddling and sometimes it's touch and sometimes it's dancing and play. It's lots of things, right? To understand what she needs. We do a thing called clearing of the masculine. So, you know, there's lots of parts and I think a holistic approach. I think watering a woman's roots erotically is really important. People come in and stay often of erotic poverty. Well, they haven't had quality touch in a really long time. Maybe they haven't had sex in their marriage for 10 years. I know, shocking, clutch your pearls. It's a lot of long-term marriages. What was hot and sexy isn't anymore and that's hard. And it's also really hard to relight that fire, as you know. Some of them are widowed, divorced or single and they're not, they feel dried up. They feel stuck in their life, stuck in their sexuality and they're hungry. Do any of the participants have spouses that are okay with them coming down to participate? Oh my God, yes. Oh my God. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And we have work. We are not financially. Take it home. We're not a company. Lime, but there is one of my colleagues, Cosmo Means, has a program called Hemorrhoes. I actually pronounced it and remembered how to say it. Hemorrhoes, which is like a back to the body for men. Okay. Sometimes the woman is working with me and the husband is working with Cosmo. Oh, that's that's really your couples retreat for them. Okay. So yes, I've gotten quite the load of thank you letters from husbands. I mean, it makes so much sense if like each can get support and then they can or or if she can come down and get some information and then come home and have that information benefit the two of them. But it takes a certain type of couple that has enough of an open mind to say, give us some help, you know, we need some support. We don't we need to infuse this or invigorate this or inform this relationship because we're stalled out or we just never, we never had it to begin with. What I say to the women is that the retreat is called back to the body, not back to the partner. Hmm. There's not a lot of focus. I'm bringing it back. What I tell them is don't put yourself in the position of being your husband's sex educator. Yeah. Yeah, because that's a that's a heavy load. Yeah. Like don't do that. What is true, though, is because they've had these experiences at back to the body. They are different. They're moving differently. They're moving differently. He's going to move differently if she's finding her voice and she's able. I got fuzzy over some. I don't know why. And she's able to ask for what she wants in a soft, beautiful way because we teach that. Yeah, it calls him in. Right. And simple words like softer, harder, just like that. Master those three sentences. Yeah. Everyone takes notes softer, harder, just like that. Yeah. They're easy. You can remember them. Yeah. And it improves communication with your lover or your partner. Right. So partners do benefit. I mean, husbands have written my favorite one was I sent you a Volvo and you sent me back a Ferrari. Now I need the guidebook. Right. I need the owner's manual. Right. Exactly. I need the owner's manual. Right. The driver's manual. And then you went to him roast. Yeah. But you know, it's beautiful when you see couples working together. It's also beautiful to see single women finding their voice, people healing stuff. All different. I mean, are you helping these women also with self-touch? Yes. Yeah. I would think so. That would be valuable. I mean, it's remarkable how little people understand of their own body and of their own erotic template. You know, you know, here's like the is it really unusual or weird that they don't know their anatomy? I mean, I have worked. I've been very lucky to work with Dr. Maria Yoloko, who is here in Southern California, whose specialty is urologies and sexual wellness. And she's come to the retreat for like an afternoon and talk to the women about how kind of colleges don't even know their anatomy. And the first thing they do is put a speculum in you and look inside your vagina. And they may not really be looking at your whole vulva. They may not be talking to you about your vulva. They may not be holding a mirror up for you and talking about what they are seeing. Right. So I have women who come in that have no idea that their vulva looks normal. They have stories that their vulva is ugly or smells or something that they can see. And don't get nervous, everybody. We're not doing a circle thing where people are. We don't do that. We honor. I'll use the word shame and embarrassment. We go slow and it's very small groups. So you may be working with a little pot of four people and you might get to see their vulva over an exercise and they get to see yours. And there's appreciation for the different colors and textures that are there. And then they're like, wow, vulva is beautiful. They're different and I'm OK. Yeah, just so normalizing of the range and variation. And it it demystifies because it does it. I mean, it's like there's glances in the locker room. I don't even think kids don't even go in locker rooms anymore. Right. I mean, I think in our generation, there's there was some locker room time, but I don't even think that happens anymore. There is porn is basically all they get access to. And there's this which is education. Hey, right. There's no there's no real sense of like all the range of normal and nothing is quite right in so many women's minds that there's something wrong with them. And there's like all these all this whole range of normal. So that's amazing that you give them that in vivo like experience that is just really empowering. Vova explorations. But many of the women have never seen their own arts. Yeah, the ecologists have never showed them or talked to them. They don't know the names of their parts. You know, the locker room experience is different for girls and boys. Yeah. Which reasons? Yeah. You know, we're in terms of the women's. Yeah. Pride. Yeah, I hate the word private, but our internal places are not the way men are. Right. And so there's a lot of questions about what is normal. Both of us are not straightforward. No, they're all tucked in. They're all hidden behind that. Behind the. They're all hidden behind the. They're all hidden behind the. They're all hidden behind the. They're all hidden behind the. Oh, it's like what's going on in there? Where is it all located? Yeah, it's confusing. Uh-huh. And if we don't understand it, how would the heck are partners supposed to understand it, you know? And sometimes with men or, you know, just say men because female partners know differently, sometimes with men, they think because they're successful erotically with one woman in their past that they should line up. Yeah. They will be good with everybody. It's more about they think that what she liked, you'll like. So I touched this woman like this and she loved it. So I'm going to bring that to this woman instead of taking the time to learn what actually gives the woman their whiff pleasure. So if you've been with one, if you've been with a woman, you've been with one woman. You've not been with it with a tribe of women and lovers need to take the time to get to know a woman's body and take the time. If you have men who listen to this podcast, take the time to praise her vulva, kiss her, tell her how beautiful she is and mire the colors of her vulva. You know, they take the time to have that woman know that you love her or you want her and you're present to her. Yeah. Makes such a difference. Yeah. Because I feel like that's not a message we get a lot. It's the, there's the subjectification, but not this adoration and appreciation, which is what you exactly just giving women those experiences of being adored to feel that in their body helps them understand what it is they actually want and what they're looking for and what it feels like. Because a lot of them will have experiences that they never had before in their life. Yeah. Well, and also so much of this is a mind-body connection. So feeling the appreciation. Yes, there's a, there is a technical skill in being a good lover, but it's also a relational skill. Absolutely. Intimacy. Right. Can you make eye contact? Some women come in and we're like, okay, let's see if we can get her just to hold eyes. It's not eye gazing. That's not what I'm talking about. It's not some tantric eye gazing ritual. Nana Pooja. Okay. So when she's with her practitioner, can she hold his eyes? Can she connect with him? Can she open her eyes and see him right there, which is a big deal. Be able to open your eyes and see a man right there. Just completely focused on you and learn in your body, the somatic feeling. Yeah. A back kind of presence. And so you watch women transform over a week. Well, it's almost like too, like taking ownership over that experience, right? Rather than just sort of having a severance of you are on my body versus you are with me in this exchange, right? It's a very different type of experience that I think a lot of people don't understand. And I mean, I remember years ago having a lover for the first time, hold eye contact in the way you're describing. And I was like, whoa, that's different. Yeah. That's intense. That's present. That's present. Yeah. And then how does that feel? You know, to be so... That was electrifying. Absolutely. Yeah. And we're not used to that. We used to the quiet and quick rule. We used to self-pudgering under a blanket. Yeah. And quickly, so you went up to court. Well, and lights out being even like your eyes are closed, right? Dark lights out, you know, like, yeah. And so to have it be, you know, in the light. And there is a use for blindfolds. Yeah. And there's a use for getting lost just inside your own body. There's a use in the exercise of connecting with another. I think it's good to play with all the things. You gotta always say... But there's an ownership in each of those, right? Even when you blindfold, even when you, you know, deprive yourself of some sensory, you're still, you're not, you're not checking out, you're checking in and you're being, you're taking ownership and you're participating willingly in that exchange. Absolutely. Absolutely. You're owning your pleasure. So our sexuality and the desires of women, again, it's a pie. It's not one thing or the other. It's making available to women all these different kinds of experiences that lead them to a kind of self-confidence that is striking. Yeah. You know, the woman who walks in isn't the woman who walks out. And I think that's immersion. That's the gift of staying. When I did this kind of work, I had to go pick up my dry cleaning. As I would close the door, I was going back to work and we've taken all that away. And it's pretty amazing. The changes you can see in a person with a no longer inerotic poverty and they feel safe enough. Now, I know there's like shorter, because I think you do like a three day version. Right. Isn't there like a shorter version? Well, there's something called a portal and our next one will be here in Josh Retrie. They're three day events. It's not a retreat. It's an experience. They come on a Friday. Some people choose to do residential and stay here. And they get to have somatic experiences and clearings. As I said, we do clearing of the masculine. We do an art of adoration. They have an experience doing Lotus Left Meditation, which is something I developed that was featured in Oprah, Name Drop twice. And so they get to learn that and there's some workshops. That's what Dr. Marie Loco came up for and they get to see a live demo, but we don't put them on the table on the three day introductory, gives them a chance to taste the work, see the people. And they leave with tools. It's I'm just going to say it's cheap. It's nowhere near what it costs to come to a retreat. It's like four fifty or seven hundred dollars. About a grand if they want to sleep here and use the pool in the hot tub and get all their meals here. And we have a chef, but it's a really lovely three day with your girlfriends. And then see what what is here for you. Right. Yeah. So it's a yeah, kind of what your appetite see a little bit, kind of get a sense of it. And that is that often how people start and then they come back. Yeah. So and then they want to come back and help out at the portal. Yeah, it's a door opening for people. Yeah, that makes sense. Sure. Of course, many of them sign up for retreats afterwards because when they're coming to a portal, they're really interested in coming to a retreat. They're curious. They want to know more. They want to actually be with us. Like, how do we feel in person? Does it feel safe? Is it beautiful? And they get to see a live demo and the demos are really a big thing because some things are not in your head. They're felt experiences in your body and this takes the mystery out. Sing. I'm kind of intrigued. Maybe maybe I'll maybe I'll sign up for I don't know. I don't know if I want to do the portal. I probably go for the I probably go for Italy or something. I want to go. Yes, this is a lot. Yeah, next year are two international retreats in Sicily and believe it or not, a place that was not on my bucket list. Panama, our third year we went to private island. It's like Pamela's Pleasure Island. Go big. Incredible, incredible food and the women have the beach. And this year, I was ready not to go back. The woman would like if you don't let this island again, we all rent it like without you. I'm like, OK, I got it. We're going back to Panama for a third year in a row. They love it because of the swimming and the paddle boarding and the beauty of being on a private island. I mean, it is very sexy to be on a private island. So we're going back to Panama and I expect that one to sell out with the women who were there this year. Yeah. Because they also develop a relationship with one another and it's, you know, absolutely, they want to know who's going where. Yeah. And they're very good at welcoming in new women. Yeah, which is great. OK, the women are women in sisterhood who can heal their mother wounds and no longer compete with each other, but cheer each other on. It's beautiful and it's rare. Yeah. Well, and I love that these women are older too, right? That they're they're they're prioritizing their erotic pleasure and they're doing this at 60 and 70 and 80. Yeah. At any age that they're still coming. Coming into this. I'll have a retreat. There'll be a 30 year old, a 40 year old, 50s, 60s, 70 year old and an 80 year old. And we have all those decades, so many cross generations. And what's true about women over 40 is they often have their careers done. Like, you know, with the no longer racing. Yeah, dialed in. They've got their jobs when they're 50, their children are mostly raised. Many of them have their own money by that time in their life. And they're 40s, 50s, 60s and upwards. They have their own bank accounts. They have their own freedom. They're no longer out there trying to prove themselves. They're wanting to feel themselves more and they're not wanting to leave anything behind. Yeah, I find that a lot of the clients I work with tend to be, I would say, 50 to 70 is kind of that sweet spot of my population as well. And there is oftentimes a revisiting of like, I want a sex life I've never had. It's not like I want to revisit. I want a sex life that I've actually never had. You know, it's never been that good. I'm sure. Not ropes. I'm curious about spanking. You know, I'm like asking for that. Oh, yeah. Well, they do come in. Very curious about all the things that they've seen in movies that they've read about. They want pleasure. They want to they want to drop into their, yeah, to their pleasure center and understand what's possible. Yeah, they try to being sexually bored. They want to feel enlivened and alive. Would you call it impoverished? Why I said erotic poverty. Yeah, erotic poverty. I like that phrase. Well, thank you so much. This has been really helpful. You can find Pamela at backtothebody.org if you want to do a portal or retreat. Or have a consultation. They're free. Yeah. You can find me on social media, on Facebook and on Instagram at the Pamela Madsen. And thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. And we'll put all this in the show notes for you too. Hey, it's Dr. Jen. Thanks so much for tuning in. Please leave us a review and leave a comment if something struck you. We'd love to get the feedback. It really helps the podcast. And if you want to reach me, go ahead and direct message me on Instagram or you can reach me at Jen at revieratherapy.com. Thanks.