The Woman Who Empowers U.S. Military Spouses

This is Women Road Warriors with Shelly Johnson and Cassie Ticcaro from the corporate office to the cab of a truck. They're here to inspire and empower women in all professions. So gear down, sit back and enjoy. Welcome. We're an award-winning show dedicated to empowering women in every profession through inspiring stories and expert insights. No topics off limits on our show. We Power Women on the Road to Success with expert and celebrity interviews and information you need. I'm Shelly. And I'm Cassie. As we've all heard, necessity is the mother of invention. Women are experts in doing this. Lauren Wittenberg-Wiener can vouch for that. She says she survives through wit and grit. She's the author of the book Unruly. She calls herself an accidental entrepreneur who, when she couldn't get work as a military spouse stationed overseas, found great success in the male-dominated field of military contracting. She changed the rules of the game and started WWC Global, one of the largest privately held government contracting firms in Tampa Bay. WWC Global won the largest award ever to a woman-owned small business in U.S. Special Operations Command Headquarters history. The $200 million contract to train and offer military exercise support with special operations like the Navy Seals, Green Berets and others. Lauren is an amazing mentor for women and an example of how we can prevail in business. Lauren has an undergraduate degree from the University of Michigan and a Ph.D. in psychology from Dartmouth College. Over the past 20 years, she built her company to nearly $100 million in annual revenue before selling it in 2022. World UWC Global now employs over 250 military spouses and has kept them employed through many military moves. Lauren's nonprofit In Gear Career focuses exclusively on military spouse employment. It merged with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce Foundation's Hiring Our Heroes program. Lauren is a tour de force that we wanted to talk to, to tap into her insight and serious innovation. Welcome, Lauren. Thank you for being on the show with us. Thank you both so much for having me. I'm really excited about it. This is so very cool. You are a serious trailblazer whose opening doors were so many women. How about if you give us the cliff notes on your story and how all of this snowballed into such a terrific enterprise? Sure. Well, so I was working and minding my own business, thank you very much. In my White House job, I had gotten a job coming out of graduate school, doing regulatory policy in the Office of Management and Budget, which is the career side of the White House. I worked for Clinton administration and then the second Bush administration when I met my now husband. He worked for the Navy. At one point, he was about to propose to me and got an offer to go to Naples, Italy. I thought it was going to be great. We had just watched under the Tuscan sun. I was like, great, we're going to go to the rolling bucolic hills of Italy. I looked it up and there were jobs that were open on the base, no problem. Then we got out there after having four days to actually get married. We had proposed and four days later, we were married at the Justice of the Peace. We headed out to Naples. I found out that Naples was definitely not Tuscany. Then I figured out that at least according to the HR office, their military spouses weren't allowed to have professional level jobs. At least that's what they told me at the time. I showed up having been a fairly senior government policy officer and got there and was told I could be a secretary until I got pregnant. I didn't do well with that. I was just going to say that's almost a stop in the face. It was 2004 at this point. It really wasn't that long ago. It seems like a long time ago now, but it really was way past our mom's generation where that was standard. I didn't do well with that. Another military spouse who was on the base, who was a lawyer, convinced me to start a company just so I could get work back in the States until I could get back home and start my career. Instead, somebody turned to us and said, wait a second. I need somebody smart to do some analysis. That was in anti-terrorism force protection. I got to tell you, Shelley, Kathy, I didn't know what anti-terrorism force protection was. I certainly don't think I could spell it at the time. I was like, whatever gets me out of the house, yes, I will do it. It signed me up. I was like, sure, I'll figure it out. I started and then within a couple of weeks, somebody said, hey, wait a second. I need one of you. Can I have another one of you? Then I need another one of you. If by one of us, you meant a smart military spouse, gosh, there were a lot of us there and we had all been told we could be secretaries. We just started hiring and we grew quickly and we grew well by using military spouses and then we got a little bit more strategic and grew outside of just the military spouse community. The first start of it was, yeah, there's a ton of really impressive women and men but that are, quote, dependence, which is what we were called, on the base that couldn't work elsewhere. We used them all. Wow. What an evolution and you just hit the ground running, not really knowing what direction to head. It created your own GPS, if you will. It was fun. We didn't know what we, I don't think, I call myself an entrepreneur specifically because I didn't know what I didn't know. It was a way to get a job and then a way to keep going and then a way to keep building and then, and we just figured it out as we went and we did it together, all of us together and made it happen. So how'd you know how to hire and who to hire? Because basically what you were doing was it was uncharted territory and I mean you grew that business into a tremendous enterprise. Yes. Well, who to hire was very, very easy, honestly. At least initially, who to hire was very easy. There were so many incredible military spouses. One of our first hires was a Harvard trained lawyer. Another one was a, she had a master's in public policy and had been the budget director for the state of Hawaii. These were remarkable people who weren't being utilized. So who to hire was very easy. How to hire, honestly, I had come out of the regulatory office at the White House. So I knew how to look up all the rules. I knew how to figure them out and I knew where to find them. So I just got really, really good at making sure that I knew what the rules were and figuring out how to manage them. Sure. Oh my goodness. Very impressive. Wow. I'd be so overwhelmed. Yeah, we were, but it's okay. I mean, you are overwhelmed. You're never going to not be overwhelmed when you're building something like this, but when you're doing anything, it's easy to be overwhelmed if you're pushing out of your comfort zone, but pushing out of your comfort zone is where the growth happens. So we were eager to do that and we kind of, I mean, I guess I had been outside of my comfort zone for four years before this when I was working for the White House. I was never in my comfort zone there. So I felt comfortable in the discomfort. Okay. That makes sense. Comfortable being uncomfortable. And when you think about it, life's kind of that way. People like their security blankets, but I think when they crawl under those, sometimes they limit their potential. A million percent, yes. So you're a keynote speaker. What are some of your messages for women who are thinking about doing something maybe out of the ordinary or trying to reinvent the wheel, if you will? What do you recommend? Yeah. So one of my favorite keynotes is don't climb every mountain, which is exactly the opposite of kind of what I did when we were first building because I was climbing every mountain that was in front of us. But at various points in my career, everyone has expected me to do something. And it was the next mountain in front of me, right? When I was getting my PhD, it was I was supposed to be a professor. And I kind of realized I didn't want to be a professor and people were kind of incredulous that I could get there and I didn't want to. When we started the company, people were looking at us going, well, that's not going to work. How are you going to do that? Why wouldn't you go back to your White House job? Why wouldn't you get this kind of traditional job on base until you can get back home? And so we kind of threw out the expectations at each turn. And not every time, certainly, we didn't keep changing the path every day that we could, but the times that we did, the times that we threw out those expectations, learned the rules, but then threw out the expectations outside of the actual no-kitting rules and went in our own path, our own way. Those were the times that we found the biggest breakout success. We're also available wherever you listen to podcasts on all the major podcast channels like Spotify, Apple, YouTube, Amazon Music, Audible, you name it. Check us out and bookmark our podcast. So don't forget to follow us on social media. We're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, LinkedIn, YouTube and other sites. And tell others about us. We want to help as many women as possible. When opportunity doesn't knock, some women build their own door. And that's exactly what Lauren Wittenberg Weiner did. As a military spouse living overseas, Lauren found herself shut out of the traditional job market. So she created her own opportunity. And in the process, broke barriers in one of the most male dominated industries out there. Military contracting. She founded WWC Global, a powerhouse government contracting firm that went on to win the largest award ever granted to a woman owned small business by the U.S. Special Operations Command, a $200 million contract supporting elite forces like the Navy Seals and Green Berets. Over the next 20 years, Lauren grew her company to nearly $100 million in annual revenue before selling it in 2022. Today, WWC Global employs more than 250 military spouses, helping them maintain meaningful careers no matter where duty sends them. She also launched In Gear Career, now part of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce's Hiring Our Heroes program. It empowers military spouses nationwide. Lauren is proof that determination and vision can transform challenges into empires. Lauren, you've accomplished so much in such a short time with your amazing endeavor that came out of necessity. And you've helped so many people. And then you just continue to grow. Kind of, it was a metamorphosis, wasn't it? Lauren Ruffin Yeah, we went from just being overseas and just with military spouses to being, like I said, a little bit more strategic. And so we pushed into a contract in D.C. at the State Department. And that was a very large contract as well, which we didn't realize was surprising for a small business who had never really done much work outside of the overseas military environment. We won against all the big insulting firms, which at the time, I don't think I realized quite how big of a deal that was. Now looking back on it, I can't believe we did it. We started pushing into kind of the D.C. policy market. And then we got further and further outside of just D.C. and overseas. We moved into Norfolk. We moved up to New Hampshire. We moved into Tampa doing all this work. So I think by the end of the, when we sold the company, I think we covered 15 time zones. So we kind of expanded fairly quickly and broadly outside of just the Navy's space where we started into broader DOD, into the State Department, into Homeland Security, into USAID, and a couple of the domestic agencies as well. You know, just the world of government contracting, let alone military contracting. That's daunting in and of itself. And for you to make that kind of inroad is really amazing. Thank you. Thank you. And I love the fact that you're helping so many military spouses. And when you think about it, women shouldn't have to give up their dreams just because maybe their husband decides to go into the military. I mean, and for you to be told, oh, you could be a secretary. Really? Wow. Yep. I think one of the things that we realized very early on was not just that it was good for the spouses, which it was, not just that it was, it certainly was never charity for us to do this for the spouses. It was great business for us. But above and beyond that, it was a matter of national security because the best officers, non-commissioned officers, even the young enlisted folks that were there on base, they were married to the best and brightest spouses. And so if we kept the spouses engaged, then we would keep the best of our military staying in the military. If they weren't engaged, they were going to leave. You were creating marital harmony. Praying. Yes. Yes. Yeah. What is it some guys have said, a happy wife is a happy life? Absolutely. We cry out all the time. We heard that all the time. We got it from a lot of military guys that we had hired their wives. And again, it wasn't all wives. There were plenty of, surprisingly, male spouses whose wives were in the military and we were hiring as well. Obviously, it was skewed much more toward women. But we heard that from a lot of the spouses that we had was happy wife, happy life. So they were very happy with this history. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So what keeps you up at night? What are your insights? How have you been able to do all of these innovations and transitions? How have I been able to do them? I think one bite at a time. You cannot possibly know where you're going all the time because you're going to lose opportunities if you think you know exactly what path you're on. So it's really taking advantage of the opportunities as they come being prepared to take advantage of the opportunities as they come. Because if I had, really, if I had told, if anyone had asked me five years before any period of time in my life where I was going to be in five years, I hate that question in interviews, by the way, but if anyone had told me at any point, where are you going to be, I would have gotten it wrong by a magnitude because I would have underestimated where I was going to be. And it would have put me in a totally different place. Sure. So being able to take advantage of the opportunities by being prepared to take advantage of them, but recognizing that you're not going to be able to predict all of them, I think is what got us to where we got. You see people quite often and maybe more so with women. They limit their opportunities. They don't only see them. They kind of have blinders on. Oh gosh, yeah. And I think, I don't think that's just women. We had plenty of men tell us after, first of all, we had plenty of people, mostly men, tell us when we first started, oh, you can't do that. That's not possible. Or that's against the rules. That's not the way it's going to go. Or you're totally wrong because military spouses can't possibly do that kind of level of work. Or we heard, and well, to finish that thought, when we heard that, my response was usually oh really watch me. Oh God, you tell me I can't do something. Oh yeah. Watch the stream. Yeah. Me too. Those were the four words that drove my success more than anything else was oh really watch me. And again, we did the work to say, when they said you can't do that, it's against the rules, I'd go back to the rules and say, is it really against the rules? And almost inevitably, it either wasn't or it was against some rule, but there was a different way to get to where we wanted to get to. But then the other thing that we heard over and over and over again was oh, I thought of that. Oh, I thought of using military spouses. Oh, I had thought that we could do that, but you didn't do anything about it. And so it's great that you've thought of that. It's great that you, I joke that I thought of GPS well before GPS ever came about because I am directionally clueless and I wanted my dad to program something into my car that would tell me turn here, turn here in the 80s when I was learning to drive. But I didn't do it because I didn't have the technology or the know how to do that. So I didn't come up with GPS. I thought of the, I thought it would be a great idea, but you have to actually follow through and make it happen. So there's lots of naysayers that say, oh, you can't do that. And there's lots of people who say, oh, I, I could have done that, but you didn't. Kind of interesting how many people who have been successful have had a lot of naysayers. And I don't know if women hear more naysayers than men do. You have people who are just plain jealous, maybe a little bit lazy. They don't want to do it. They'll find every reason why it can't work. And I hate the word can't. Absolutely. Absolutely. I feel like women may hear more naysayers. I think sometimes men might just not hear that because they're just willing to plow through it. I don't, I don't necessarily think people tell women, no, maybe they do, but tell women that's crazy more often. I just don't think a lot of the men are introspective enough or kind of open enough to hear those criticisms. They just keep going and plow through and their ego lets them say, I can do anything I want to. But I think that's also why women in the long run, when you look at the research, end up doing better in many respects because they're thinking through all of the things that could go wrong. They're not running headfirst into a brick wall. I mean, sometimes it'll stop them, but if they can power through it and not let it stop them, they're going to do better than the men who are like, I could do anything I wanted to do. I've seen way too many men who don't listen to advice, who don't listen to the people who are saying, not necessarily the naysayers, but the people who are like, hold on a second, have you thought of this? Men have a good way of somehow closing down their ears. Yes. Very selective perception. Sometimes I think that's true. And they'll walk into a brick wall five times before they realize it hurts. Yes. Yes. Stay tuned for more of Women Road Warriors coming up. Industry movement, Trucking Moves America Forward is telling the story of the industry. Our safety champions, the women of trucking, independent contractors, the next generation of truckers, and more. Help us promote the best of our industry. Share your story and what you love about trucking. Share images of a moment you're proud of. And join us on social media. Learn more at TruckingMovesAmerica.com. Welcome back to Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Takarov. Some women don't wait for opportunity. They create it. That's exactly what Lauren Wittenberg-Winer did. When the traditional job market shut her out as a military spouse overseas, she built her own path and ended up transforming an entire industry. Lauren founded WWC Global, a government contracting powerhouse that landed a $200 million U.S. Special Operations Command contract, the largest ever given to a woman-owned small business. She also launched a career network that became part of hiring our heroes, helping thousands of military spouses thrive. No matter where life takes them. Lauren's nonprofit in-gear career focuses exclusively on military spouse employment. She's also the author of the book Unruly, which shows people how to stay within the rules while plotting their own successful authentic paths. Lauren's stories prove that resilience and vision can turn challenge into triumph. Lauren, your messaging is terrific here. I see you did a TEDx talk last year on credibility and connection through thoughtful authenticity. What is thoughtful authenticity? The way that I define thoughtful authenticity is authenticity, so your real self, but tempered by the situation that you find yourself in. I am authentic in all of the different aspects of my life from being the CEO of a $100 million firm to being a hockey mom to two teenagers, to being the caregiver for elderly parents, and all of those aspects of my life. I am authentic, but I am presenting by necessity a different version of myself. If I show up in my hockey mom era as the CEO, I'm going to get looked at differently, and I'm probably not going to be accepted as well as if I showed up in leggings and a big parka as a hockey mom. Those kind of realizing what situation you find yourself in and highlighting the authentic pieces of you that are relevant to that situation is critical. Oh, absolutely. I think sometimes people find it problematic. They don't necessarily always know they're authentic self. Yes. Yeah, it does. It takes a lot of introspection. It takes a lot of comfort in your own skin to be able to ... I joke. I'm a hot mess. I'm terrible with fashion and makeup. You can't get me onto a stage without somebody helping me because it's just not who I am. I'm okay and I embrace that as part of who I am and the positives and the negatives of who I am, but that means that I know very clearly who I am, who I am not, and what I want to be and how I'm going to present myself that way effectively. That's a good thing. Your book is very intriguing. It's called Unruly. Basically, when the rules stop working for you, Unruly is the guide to navigate your authentic path to personalize success. I like that. I don't like rules. I didn't like them as a kid. I was just going to say, you and rules really, Shelley? All right. What is Unruly about? Does it give people a way to navigate some of the roadblocks that we can encounter with rules? Absolutely. I was the opposite. I was an absolute consummate rule follower growing up. I did everything that everyone told me to do. I never stepped out of line. I still don't actually break rules. I am way too guilt-ridden and way too anxious to ever truly break rules. What I realized is, particularly when I went into the rulemaking office in the White House, how much gray there is, both within the written rules, which are something that we need to follow. They do have significant consequences if we don't actually follow the written rules most of the time, but also the unwritten rules, the expectations, the standard playbook that people play within, those limit you in ways that I think hinder you onto a very standard and very limited path. If you find the space within those rules and those expectations, you can break free from the crowd and find your own authentic path to your own version of success, whatever that looks like. It is interesting. When you look at laws, rules, there are always some gray areas. Of course, attorneys are really good at finding that gray area, the exceptions. It's a talent to be able to do that. There are so many gray areas in life. I think people, if they're caught up too much by rules, they limit themselves. If they know how to maybe push those boundaries just a little bit, is that the key to success? I think so, but I think it is knowing the rules and where those boundaries truly are and aren't actually that you can find your own kind of path. That's what I did when everyone was telling me, no, no, no, it's against the rules for military spouses to work overseas. One of the things I heard over and over again was the status of forces agreement doesn't allow for it. We went to the status of forces agreement. Luckily, it was translated from Italian into English because my Italian wasn't that good. We went in and said, what is the status of forces agreement actually set? What does the implementing guidance for the status of forces agreement say? What is the policies and the processes and the actual forms say? Where is the room within those to actually say, do military spouses have space to work on the base? It turned out that the SOFA itself, the status of forces agreement, was agnostic about it. It didn't say one way or another if we could. The implementing guidance was agnostic about it. It was really only when you got to the procedures that were written by the staff, the mid-level staff on ground, and then the form itself that didn't have a box to check for military spouse, that was the only thing that needed to get changed. Those were able to be changed at that local level. We went in and we advocated for the change. That's how we were able to do this for the first time. Can military spouses work anywhere at this point or are there still limitations? There are some limitations. There are, again, these are international agreements and each international agreement changes differently depending on the country and what's been negotiated. One of the things that we were able to do very early on was it turned out the policy on base that didn't allow for spouses to become government civilians, not contractors like we were, but government civilians like I had been when I was sitting in the White House. That was just a simple procedure on base that somebody had interpreted to be saffroncanked. We actually were able to change the procedure on base so that even though we were really good at hiring all the military spouses, and it probably hurt us in the long run to allow them to hire government civilians instead of us hiring them, we were able to get that policy change on that base and then around the world to make sure that all military spouses were able to work on base effectively at whatever level they were qualified for. We changed it and that made me very happy to see that not only can I change the rules for me and for the people I was working with, but that we could make broader changes that were the right things to do by knowing the rules and really pushing the right people to adopt the right rules. So you're quite the champion. Try, I try. Very, very impressive. I must say. Yes. Wow. I'm just happy I got out of bed and cold my hair today. That's most of my days too, trust me. Stay tuned for more of Women Road Warriors coming up. Learn more at TruckingMosAmerica.com. Welcome back to Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Takarro. Lauren Wittenberg Weiner is living proof that when the rules don't fit, you can write your own playbook. As a military spouse overseas, she refused to let closed doors define her future. Instead, she built WWC Global, a groundbreaking government contracting firm that went on to earn a $200 million contract award from the U.S. Special Operations Command, the largest ever for a woman owned small business. She also launched a career network that became part of hiring our heroes, helping thousands of military spouses thrive no matter where life takes them. Lauren's nonprofit In Gear Career focuses exclusively on military spouse employment. And in her book Unruly, Lauren shows us that success isn't about following the crowd. It's about staying true to your purpose and daring to forge your own way. You've made such a positive impact, Lauren, with so many of the things you do. You also had the nonprofit In Gear Career. What does that do? So that actually we realized fairly early that there was no way for us to hire all of the military spouses, although we were going to try and we've hired a lot of them over the years. But we realized, as we were building the firm, that there were all of these military spouses all around the world who we couldn't hire and nobody else was hiring at that point. So we wanted to focus on how to serve them on a nonprofit basis if WWC couldn't hire them. And when we first started, we were so concentrated overseas that when the military spouses moved from overseas back to the States, we couldn't keep them on. Now, we've since then been able to do it and we've had some of our employees on board, even now with the new owners. They've been on board a lot of them 17, 18 years at this point. But at the time, we didn't think we were going to be able to move them around as effectively. So we started this nonprofit, a woman named Haley Uthlaut came to us. She was in an MBA program at UNC working on, focused on nonprofits. And she came to us and said, hey, you guys are the only ones talking about military spouse employment, the professional levels. I really want to start a nonprofit. And my business partner and I had been talking about starting a nonprofit, we just didn't have enough bandwidth to do it. So we funded Haley and we became the chair and the vice chair of the board and brought in a couple more board members and launched this in-gear career that focused on the barriers to military spouse employment at the professional levels. And at that point, honestly, what we kept hearing, there was one article that was out in one of the military press, military times or whatever, it was years ago. And it said top 10 careers for military spouses, just as we were launching in gear career. And it was dog walker, it was bagger at the commissary, it was childcare worker. And there was nothing remote, I mean, there was, I think there was nurse and teacher of which both of those are very difficult careers for military spouses because of the licensure issues that are now mostly fixed, somewhat fixed, but at the time weren't fixed at all. So we wanted to change the conversation around military spouses as, hey, these are professional people who want to continue their professional careers. So I think we were one of the first, if not the first, to really speak about military spouse employment in this way. And then hiring our heroes really very quickly got into the military spouse space. And we realized they could scale this a whole lot better than we could. So we handed it over to them, gosh, probably 12 years ago or so now, and they've taken it and run with it in an entirely, you know, to an entirely new level that was impressive. We're still involved, we still talked to them all the time, we still support them, but they were able to kind of take this to the next level. And I was perfectly happy to give it over because I knew they could do it better than I ever could. Bravo. You really changed the trajectory for so many women. I mean, who can imagine, I'd like to talk to the journalist who wrote that article, top careers, dog walker, really? Yeah. I think it was, I think it was still unlinked at that point that I, I think I wrote a skating review of it, like, come on, come on, I could do a lot. You're right, I can walk dogs, but I also have a PhD from an Ivy League school. I can do a whole lot more than walking dogs. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, think, I mean, that was, that was really kind of a slap on the face. That was a little, and this was probably 2010, 2011. I mean, it was still not that long ago. Amazing. Yeah. So your book on Ruelly, do you have some key points you could share with our listeners? Because I would imagine this book, you don't have to necessarily be a military spouse. There's some things that there's some great takeaways. Yeah. So, so I've separated the book into three parts. The first one is really learn the rules and know where to get to the rules. And that includes those written rules. So it goes a little policy wonky for a little while. I tried to make it not too painful to read through, but on where to actually find the written rules and how rules work within our federal and also state and local systems. And even, you know, at the corporate level and what have you, how the written rules work, how to find them, how to interpret them, how to find the unwritten rules and really how the game is played, which is entirely different than finding the written rules. And usually it really involves relationships and finding the people who can walk you through the way the game is really, really played. And then it's figuring out where you've got room within the rules to challenge those rules or those expectations or those norms. And then the third part is really an advocacy piece of once you've done it, once you've done well, and kind of this is the era that I'm in, although I've been here for a while, is how do you advocate for changes that are broader? How do you make the game different for the people coming up after you? How do you step off the treadmill? You know, like I said, one of the keynotes that I give is don't climb every mountain because at some point you've got your head down, you're climbing, you're climbing, you're climbing. How do you get off the treadmill? How do you figure out when enough is enough? How do you find that path and keep going on the right path but know when you can stop climbing that same path, maybe get off and chill out for a little while? Which is excellent. You're paying it forward in one of these aspects, how you can open doors for other people. And you're finding the resources. What has been finally called the Good Old Boys Club, you're breaking down those doors so you can find the right people who can say, yeah, this is a shortcut. This is who you need to talk to. I mean, those are some of the barriers that I really think stop people in their tracks. You know, it's funny, I often say, I know there are plenty of times when I've gotten to the table because I'm a woman and there was some push to get women to the table. I know there were a whole lot more times that I didn't get to the table because I was a woman. So I'm going to take the times that I got to the table as a woman, prove myself and make sure that I take my seat at the table effectively. And it's terrible that you're a token and it's terrible that people are looking at you, but okay, that's what's going to happen. So I'm going to prove it. And then I'm going to take that opportunity to pull more people to the table, particularly some maybe that look like me or our women, but also people who don't look like me, who have not been at that table historically, or we're going to blow out the table entirely and just make it standing room only, right? So that we don't have to limit who's at the table, except by actual ability. So prove you're able to be there, prove you can do the work. And I'm going to pull as many people to that table as I possibly can. That makes the change. That makes the change. It does. A little off topic here, I'm dying of curiosity. Can you please explain what in the world is a Panini generation? I've never heard of that before. So remember, I lived in Italy for four years. So you've lived of the sandwich generation, right? Nope. Really? Okay. So I'm living it. So that's probably why I'm so engaged. But the sandwich generation, the concept is really that you are sandwiched between, so two pieces of bread being your parents and your kids, and you're smushed in between them, like the sandwich meat. But I always felt like that was too quaint, because the sandwich is just like nicely, you know, the top and the bottom. And it's a Panini, on the other hand, it's force and high heat. And it changes the entire consistency of the sandwich. It doesn't look like a sandwich anymore. It's a Panini. And so I said, you know, for that sandwich generation, because that's way too quaint. I'm on all sides, you know, from my kids, from my parents, but also from work, from friends, from my husband, from, you know, and none of them are bad and none of them would I want to give up. But it's all pressure and it's all high pressure and high heat and really overwhelming to a point that it changes everything around. And so that's what I call a Panini. That's it. I love it. Thank you for clarifying that. Yep. And wouldn't that be the generation X? Well, you know, it's funny, I've heard from people who are Gen Y who are in it. I think, you know, it doesn't always have to be parents and kids that are doing, that are making you feel like a Panini. I'm, you know, plenty of my friends who don't have kids still feel like it. So I think it's just anything that's pressing on you from multiple different aspects. And I don't know, a single woman or a man, for that matter, who doesn't feel like they're getting pressure from multiple sides. Makes sense. So where do people find your book and what are some tips you can share with our listeners from your book that will get them motivated? First of all, to buy your book and also maybe some takeaways to change their perspectives on what they can accomplish. Yeah. When I went to Italy, I first said, I can't find a job. Great. I'll write a novel. I don't know what I thought I was going to write about. I was 30 years old, so I had no life experience whatsoever at that point. But I always wanted to do it. And now I finally get the chance to do it, you know, 20 some years later. So it's really exciting. It's fun. I've had such a great time doing it. It is available kind of everywhere that you could order books. So Amazon, Burns and Noble, Books a Million, Target, they all have the book. And really, I think what the book does is allows you a framework to look at, you know, not breaking the rules. It feels right now in particular. We're at a particular zeitgeist point in time here where it seems like a whole lot of people are breaking the rules without any sort of consequence whatsoever. There's a whole lot of people who just have sharp elbows, kind of mess around and try to get ahead by getting over people. And I think the book gives you a bit more of a roadmap to do the right thing and still do well. So I keep saying over and over now, you can do well by doing good. You can be a good person. You can do the right thing and help other people without sacrificing your own comfort, your own accolades, your own professional development. You can actually be a good person and be successful. I like that. Me too. That works for me. Absolutely. What is the link for your book? Where do people find it? Well, you can find it on my homepage, which is laurenwittenbergweiner.com or any of my social media. And there is a link on Simon and Schuster if you want to go there, or you can find it on pretty much any of the places where you order from Amazon, from Barnes & Noble, Books of Million, Target, all have a link to order. Excellent. Well, this is really the kind of book I think that everybody needs. And you were saying that a lot of people are trying to get ahead by like walking on each other. Yeah. Which, you know, it does really seem like that. It's a dog eat dog world out there. Not that that's anything new, but it does seem like there's an awful lot of competition, animosity, and a lot of inconsiderate behavior. And there's enough. The pie is big enough for everybody. It's just a matter of finding your little niche, right? I think so. I think you can. I really believe in the power of non-transactional relationships. I'm a huge fan of Adam Grant and particularly his give and take book because it kind of encapsulates how I've always lived my life as a giver. And it made me feel a whole lot less of a sucker for being a giver, because he's shown in research that it actually puts you ahead in the long run. But above and beyond that, I think there is a way to look at relationships non-transactionally. And I've had a number of people who will come in with sharp elbows or take from you. And I've had conversations with them where I'm like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? And they're like, well, this is what it takes to get ahead. You don't understand. This is what I've seen that it takes to get ahead. And in their world, they're right because if they're looking at relationships transactionally, then all relationships that they engage in will be transactional. If you take a broader view of relationships where it is not quid pro quo, where it is not, I do this for you and therefore you can do that for me where you're not keeping score, it becomes a much broader place where you might not get something out of somebody that you helped. And that's okay with everyone, because what ends up happening is your aperture opens up and you've got supportive, incredible, broad-based villages that allow for everyone to be lifted up. And so it's non-transactional, you're not keeping score and you end up doing better because of it. Much better perspective. You couldn't have said it better. You know, you have a much more fulfilling life. For sure. Yeah, it has a thing, it's a transaction. It's like, why are we really here? Yeah, yeah. Look, there have been plenty of times when I say that we have left plenty of money on the table for the way that we approach things. In fact, I can point to specific places where somebody cheated, where somebody did something wrong and they beat us for hundreds of dollars or tens of millions of dollars or in one case, hundreds of millions of dollars that they beat us. And we left that money on the table. I sleep incredibly well at night. We did very, very well for ourselves. We might have done, I would, you know, maybe on one or two transactions, we might have done better if we had had sharp elbows like they did. We lost out because they had sharp elbows and we chose not to. But in the long run, I think we did better as a firm because we did the right thing every time. And I've done better as a human being because I have a much richer life overall with an incredibly supportive village that I don't question at all. And the success of your business shows it. You're on the right track that that is the proper philosophy and the way to run your life. I love it. What is your website again, Lauren? I'll spell it because it's a really long name. It's Lauren, L-A-U-R-E-N Wittenberg W-I-T-T-E-N-B-E-R-G, Winer, W-E-I-N-E-R. So it's Lauren Wittenberg, Winer.com. I have really enjoyed talking to you. This has been fascinating. Thank you. Yes. This is great. Thank you guys both for having me. You're very welcome, Kathy. And I thoroughly enjoyed this. I love your insight and I love your perspectives. This is the way, you know, if everyone ran the world the way you do, we'd have a better place. I hope so. I hope so. And I hope we can get more and more and more people to look at the world this way. You're making it happen. Thank you, Lauren. This has been terrific. We hope you've enjoyed this latest episode. And if you want to hear more episodes of Women Road Warriors or learn more about our show, be sure to check out womenroadwarriors.com. And please follow us on social media. And don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. On our website, we also have a selection of podcasts just for women. There are series of podcasts from different podcasters. So if you're in the mood for women's podcasts, just click the Power Network tab on womenroadwarriors.com. You'll have a variety of shows to listen to anytime you want to. Podcasts made for women. Women Road Warriors is on all the major podcast channels like Apple, Spotify, Amazon, Audible, YouTube, and others. Check us out. And please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Takaro. If you want to be a guest on the show or have a topic or feedback, email us at sjohnsonatwomenroadwarriors.com.