Baby-Faced & Deadly - Travelers Rest, South Carolina

This week, in Traveler's Rest, South Carolina, when women begin to disappear and bodies start to be found, it looks like random acts until detectives start to notice that they all have one man in common, a young man with a troubled past and a new nickname. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petriallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely crazy serial killer-charged edition of Small Town Murder. We have a wild one for you today. Really, really crazy one. We will get to all of that and more. thank you everybody for joining us again on netflix if you like this good news for you there's so many more episodes oh 170 more to catch up on so go back and listen to those wherever you listen to podcasts you can get those head over to shut up and give me murder.com what's there you may ask everything merchandise tickets for live shows especially get your tickets right now to live shows if you like the show i'm telling you you will love the live shows they are it is a comedy show. It's not a lecture. It's nothing like that. We have pictures and all sorts of crazy stuff, so it is really fun. Starting out February 21st in Nashville. Get your tickets right now. Then Durham in Atlanta on March 6th and 7th. We have Phoenixes sold out on the 20th, but Your Stupid Opinions still has some seats left for the 21st. Stand up live. Do that. Tickets left for Denver. Salt Lake City sold out. Buffalo sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan. Milwaukee. 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And there's tons of other stuff on YouTube that's supplementary to it. It's on Netflix, the Perfect Neighbor documentary. It's infuriating. It's popular demand. We have to do it because we've been asked a lot to do it. So we will do that. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And in addition to all of that, you also get everything we put out ad free as well. Your stupid opinions, crime in sports, small town murder. And in addition to that, you also get a shout out at the end of the show. So we're doing all we can possibly do for you. There you go. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. Disclaimer time, everybody. Oh, my God. Got to do it. This is a comedy show. It is. We are comedians. People are going to die. Jokes are going to get made. Now you ask, well, how do you do that? See, to me, the way we look at it is anything dark like that, we need to, like, get some humor out. That's why we're comedians, because when bad things happen, we go, oh, God, and we figure out a way to make a joke about it. That's just how we deal with dark stuff. To me, someone's saying, and then her head was cut off. And to me, that's just, that's worse. It's creepy, and it's kind of weird. So we like to do it this way and make it a little light. But we never make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. There you have it. And that's how it works. So if you think that that sounds good to you, wow, are you in for a story. If you think true crime and comedy can never possibly go together, we might not be for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we might be. I would say give it a chance. I would say give it a chance. Either way, no complaining later. I'm not going to listen to it. So that said, I think it's time, everybody. What do you say? Let's all sit back, clear the lungs here. Arms to the sky. Let's all shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. Let's do it. We're going to South Carolina this week. Load them up. Here we go. Traveler's Rest, South Carolina. That's the name of the town? That's the name of the town. Traveler's Rest. Traveler's Rest. So the name of the town tells you exactly what this town was made for. Passing through. Just passing by. Not living here at all. Get the hell out. Just go buy stock, get yourself a buttered roll, and fuck off. We're not dealing with you. A cup of coffee and move on. Have some mini stew and get back on your horse. If it was Texas, I'd say some boiled peanuts from that big vat. That was the weirdest thing ever. This is in far northwestern South Carolina. It's out there, more toward North Carolina. It's about two hours to Charlotte, so not very far, and about four and a half hours to Myrtle Beach, if you want to go the other direction in South Carolina. About a half hour to Greer, South Carolina, which was our last South Carolina episode, episode 618, Bloody Rose Petals. Remember that one where the woman's body was found with the roses all around her, the petals? That was a creepy one. This is in Greenville County, area code 864 and 821. Yeah. One area code cannot hold this town. It's not enough. The motto here is, they have a motto, this little town, which is hilarious, get in your element. Okay. I guess that's here. This is your element here. Somebody's seen the Big Lebowski. Yeah. And they want to spread that to rural northwestern South Carolina. This town is not for Donnie. Nope. So in 1794, the South Carolina General Assembly appropriated $2,000 to construct a wagon road from Greenville, South Carolina, into the Blue Ridge Mountains. Oh, yeah. So that's how this town started. So it went through Asheville, North Carolina, ending in East Tennessee. So they're like, we need stops along the way. And that's kind of it. There was a lot of wagon traffic on it. Nice. People going through here from the coast through Greenville, Traveler's Rest was the first well-equipped stop to prepare them for the mountains ahead and all that. So this is like Kingman, basically, if you're an Arizona resident. This would be Kingman. Last place to really stop and get things before Vegas. Get your good stuff. That's it. Yeah, get your meth and your tires. And dry goods. And dry goods. So they drove livestock all through the area and all that kind of thing. stagecoaches would bring wealthy families through from the low country to the cooler temperatures of western North Carolina to spend the summer away. This is the people that were going to do better things, essentially. It was incorporated in 1959, this town, but it was already incorporated in 1891. But that expired. I don't know why you would put an expiration date on your town. So those could expire. I guess so. You've got to renew those. Everybody check your town's expiration date. Look on it. Smell it. Open it. Smell it. Make sure it's not. Your town's like a yogurt. You didn't even know it. Yeah, you got your 2%. No, that's no good. Town's expired. No good anymore. All expired. Hilarious. While unincorporated, most of the area was known as Bates Township in the early 19th and 20th centuries, which is interesting. There is a college nearby, or actually two colleges that kind of sandwich it. There's Furman University and there's North Greenville University. So they're both kind of there. So that plays a part in this. Reviews of this town. We've never been here. Never. I don't know anything about this town. So it would be unfair for us to make our own assumptions. Would it? Let's go by what others say. Why don't we? All right. Here's some reviews of the town. Five stars, a beautiful small community that is family friendly. All right. Good food and beer just down the road, unlike those other non-family-friendly towns. They go, no kids allowed in this town. We got food and beer. What is that? We got titties out and beer's open. Keep your kids away. Good food and beer just down the road. Great walking and biking paths an hour or so away from the Blue Ridge Mountains and a half hour from Greenville. Here's another five stars. There's not a lot of bad reviews here that I can find. And Traveler's Rest is a small community where everyone gets together well. Not gets along well. They get together well. Get together well. I'm already leery of this town based on these reviews. I can always find someone I know when roaming downtown. That sounds like a nightmare. That sounds like a nightmare. You can't even go. I'm about to ask you a lot of questions. You can't even go to the store without having a big catch-up session with somebody from my school. No, thank you. Three stars. Traveler's Rest is a fast-growing small town on the outskirts of Greenville. Main Street is growing as new businesses come in. The Swamp Rabbit Trail, that is not a flattering name that they gave that. Is that a real animal? Swamp rabbit? Swamp rabbit? There's swamps and there's rabbits. Some of the rabbits must live in the swamp, right? I don't know. That's a good question. I'm not a zoologist, but it's possible. I don't know if that's real. I don't know if it's real either. There might be a weird South Carolina legend, yeah. The Swamp Rabbit Trail makes a great place to exercise or simply enjoy the beautiful south. Traveler's Rest has a lot of potential in the years ahead. Oh, it's got potential. It's not there yet, is what they're saying. Three stars, having some problems in the area with car break-ins. Oh, no. I'm going to put it on niche and tell everyone about it. Believed to be young kids because of the items that are being taken. Carrots? Swamp Rabbit? Oh, they're breaking in. All the swamp rabbits are busting in. They go, hey, what's up, Doc? And then that's how you know it's them. This is ridiculous. That's your worst problem, I'd say. You're doing okay. Not bad. Kids are stealing change out of your cup holder. That's not too bad. Pretty decent life. Not bad. People in this town, it's not a big town, 7,670. It's very small. Under 8,000. It's kind of out by itself. This is wild. And this has to be a college thing because the stats are way more women are enrolled in college than men are. Is that right? Yeah, lately in the last 40 years or so, that's been the case. So women in this town, 58.4%, which for a town over like 200 people, we've never had it that far out of way. It was 6 out of 10. That's crazy. Men, 41.6%. And the median age here is 21.4%. It's usually like 38. So if you're like a 23-year-old guy, there is no reason that you don't move to this town. It's just full of 21-year-old women that are like, why are there no guys in this town? They're just excited to see you. Yeah, you're about to get married on spring break. Yeah, if I was 22, I'd be moving there. That's what I'm saying. So family here, 33% married. It's, you know, all those stats. But 24% single with children. So those college kids will get knocked up every once in a while. That's impressive. That's not bad. Race in this town, 75.6% white, 11.5% black, 2.8% Asian, 8.9% Hispanic. Religion is the South. We're going to get a lot of that. 62.3% are religious. And as we know, what's going to be the top one? Baptists, 24.8%. As we know, Baptists are the Catholics of the South. Omnipresent. They're everywhere. here, 0.2% Jewish there. It's not a lot of, it's mainly Baptist. Unemployment here, slightly under the national average, which most college towns are. Yeah, I guess, yeah, most of them get a little half-assed job or something, right? They seem to have a lot of jobs. Colleges have a lot of jobs. Median household income here, though, because it's a younger crowd, well below the national average, almost about half, 36,000. Half-assed jobs, Jay. Yeah, $36,495 is a household income. So that's rough. But if you're 22... Let's do loans. They're going to be all right. They'll be all right. They're only paying those back at high interest rates. No big deal. A couple of stipends, they'll be all right. They'll be all right. Cost of living here that we do, 100 is average, regular. Here it's 91. So that's bad. Real close. Real close. Median home cost here, $263,300. That's below the national average. Yeah, that's not bad. It's still steep if your household makes $36,000 a year. Surely. It's a high bar to cross there. So that said, if we've convinced you, damn it, the only place that you could possibly be happy is Traveler's Rest South Carolina. You're in luck because we have for you the Traveler's Rest South Carolina Real Estate Report. Here we go. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for $970 a month. It's lower. That's low. It's $200, $300 off. Yeah, for a college town, that's not bad. That's pretty good. Usually they're a little pricier on the rentals. They're more in demand. House number one here is a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,240 square foot. Nice little family starter home type of G.R. It's a brick house on the outside, 0.58 acres. So not land, but a good-sized yard. That's a half acre. That's not a home. Yeah, it's a great, nice, I mean, it's a nice place to, seems like a nice house to start a family in here. $230,000 for that, though. Not bad. Not bad, but. For half an acre? You kidding? I guess that's, I don't know why. It's pretty great. Because it's in the middle of nowhere. I'm like, I'm not paying that for a house. Middle of nowhere, you feel like, because a lot of times we'll do these, and it'll be like, you know, 6,000 square feet and all this, $182,000. Because that's the middle of nowhere. So I feel like I want even more of a discount. Here is a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,767 square feet. Yeah. It's on .65 acres. So just a little bigger yard. A little bigger lot, too. A little bigger house. It looks brand new from the looks of it here. It looks pretty new. Inside is very nicely done. Fireplaces and stuff. $419,000 for that, though. I'm telling you, that's pretty good, right? For 1,700 square feet in the middle of nowhere? For half an acre, though? I don't know. Half an acre. Okay. Phoenix has a different... Phoenix acreage, you know what I mean? Because it's in a city. But if you're in the middle of nowhere, acreage costs nothing. It's free. But are the houses all close to get... No. Because that's what matters. If you've only got half an acre and the next guy is six miles away, that's pretty fucked. No, it's like half acre, half acre, half acre. That's what I mean. It seems a little pricey, $419. I'm not paying that to live in the middle of nowhere in a 1,700-square-foot house. I'll tell you that much. Here's a four-bedroom, seven-bath, T-bolt, and every B-hole. 55, yeah, some neighbors do. 5,528 square feet. Jesus. It's a big new, built in 2010. It's on an acre and a half. There's a pond. The problem is it's in a golf community. Yeah, that is a problem. Oh, you're going to have to see golfers. If you can bear the sight. Go ahead. I don't want to lie to you about their best fucking job. Oh, yeah. That's still, couldn't care less about that. Fishermen and golfers. I don't want to hang out with either of them. Because they go off to somewhere by themselves and then do feats. And then report back to you. Yeah, there's no audience is the problem. I don't need you to report back. It's fine. This house says, the gem of Cliffs Valley, a story of unrivaled views and mountain majesty. There are places that capture the imagination, and then there are those that redefine it. This is the real estate listing. Redefining. This house, $5,495,000. bucks. You better be redefining the rules of gravity for that kind of money. Are you kidding me? That better have some things in it that no other house on the planet has. I want a bat cave. I want a bat cave if I'm getting that house. I want no neighbors for $5 million. The bat uniform that turns in a big tube. I want all that shit. Yeah, my fucking closet better go into a cave. Absolutely. With water down there. I expect a water feature. It should come with dancing people, too, like a little chorus line when you go in there or something. It should be a little undisturbed village. Yes, exactly. Five million dollars. That's crazy. You can do some anthropological studies on. That's what we need. Things to do here, the Southern Roots Barbecue Festival. Yeah. Here it is, everybody, which, I mean, a barbecue festival. I'm always up to that. Sure. It says it will include over 35 pitmasters and chefs. from regions like South Carolina, Georgia, Texas, North Carolina, and beyond. Oh, the Carolinas and further. And Texas. That's where we know where barbecue comes from. I like how they just leave out Kansas City, too. They're like, we don't allow them in here. Nope. We don't talk about that. Y'all can't come. So that's what they have. They have like a gallery of pictures of all these chefs, and chefs taking headshots is just hilarious to them. Especially barbecue ones. It's all the same guy. Yeah. A guy about 48 pounds overweight with a beard. They all have your beard. A couple of briskets extra in there. A couple of briskets. And, like, some of them, I love the ones that, like, have black and white pictures and they're holding a knife. That's always my favorite one. Oh, boy. Like, we're cool. Really taking it serious. Yeah. Like, Anthony Bourdain in, like, the Kitchen Confidential days. But that was before, you know, now this is just every chef does that. That was when it was cool to do that. Here's a guy just in a hat that says Pork Grove on it, so that's fun. Pork Grove. Pork Grove. He's got, like, four chins, and it says Pork Grove on his hat there. You're a fat guy. Don't wear anything that says Pork on it. No, I'm sorry. Pork Grove. That's the name of the restaurant. Pork Grove, not Pork Grove. You're a real ass. I'm an idiot. You're fine. Your hat's terrible, and your headshot's bad, but you're fine. I'm the one who screwed up. That's my bad. But also, don't buy anything at all that can be misconstrued for pork. That's what I'm saying. There's so, I mean, that's the name of his restaurant, which might, could have the pork in it, and it'd be fine, because that's what he does, I think. But there's so many, and there's couples, too. That's the other thing. Heidi and Joe Troll, here they are holding out a cake, even though they're at a barbecue festival. That's a weird one. They're at a barbecue. This guy has like a shovel for some reason. He's standing there with his hands on the top of a shovel. I don't know what that denotes chefing. That's how he flips the brisket. This guy looks like a bearded member of the Blues Brothers here with his hat. Proceeds, though, is a good cause. Proceeds benefit I Define Ink, which is a Kleistra Syndrome support. I don't even know what that is. What is that? It sounds terrible. I don't know. Kleistra? I got the Kleistra, man. It's bad. That sounds bad, so support that cause, because we've got to help those little Cleefyaks out there. Fix those babies with the cleef. Last year, too, here's the bands from last year because they don't know what the new ones are going to be. The Swamp Rabbit Bluegrass Band. Oh, okay. Here we go. We've got Daryl Scott, just an old man with a guitar sitting there. Kim Ritchie. A lot of blonde women in cowboy hats, I'll tell you that. Kim Ritchie. Aaron Lee Tasgin. Okay. Looks like 70s Tom Petty. Beth Nielsen Chapman. Uh-huh. Brennan Lee, another woman with a cowboy hat. Sweet Meg with two Gs, another blonde woman with a cowboy hat. Getting a pattern that I'm sensing. I wonder what they play, James. I can't tell. That's the thing. I wish they would be more obvious. Andrew Duhon. Yeah. Dude with a beard and a guitar. Sure, yeah. Ward Hayden and the Outliers. A few guys with beards and hats and guitars. and the outliers actually only one beard two mustaches and a clean shaven Christina Murray hey guess what she's holding the guitar you got it Jimmy isn't this amazing Gabe Lee guy standing there with a guitar Aaron Ray Thierry whose picture looks like he's doing a TED talk that's a weird one Amelia Day who's not holding a guitar Family, yes. Maybe she doesn't even play. She might not have a guitar. That's the thing. Skunk Farmhouse Band. That's a guy with a guitar. And Tim TV and the Secret Circus with a K, which look, there's a child on stage. I think that's a kid's show. I don't think that's a country act. Is it not Mike TV's brother? No, it's Tim TV. They have 14 blonde women with guitars, a few bearded guys with guitars, and a kid's something. I don't even know. All right. Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in here, property crime is more than double the national average. What? Which is common for college towns because property crime includes pissing in the street, vandalism, shit that college kids do. Yep. Shit like that. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime, is a little more than half the average. So that's almost, that's low. So that's what I mean. A lot of these college towns have that huge property crime rates, low violent crime rates. That said, I think it's time to get into some murder here. Let's do it. Let's do this. Okay. All right. We're going to start in 1987. Okay. Let's start with two people we're going to talk about. Michael Vineyard here. Okay. Like a wine. Like the wine. Vineyard is what it is. Michael Vineyard or Vineyard, however you want to say it. I don't know how he pronounces it. He's, you know, 21 in this era here. He's got a wife named Patsy Diane Vineyard. Sure. Some newspapers have it as Diana, but more have it as Diane, so I'm going with Diane here. She's born May 1, 1967, so she's 20 years old here. Now, they're from Knoxville, Tennessee, and Michael decided about a year before, about 86, he decided to join the Army because he couldn't find work anywhere. Yeah. The mid-'80s were tough, especially in smaller cities and towns. It was going bad. So they had known each other about a year, the vineyards, and they got married. That's the thing we noticed with the Army couples, especially, like, older back in the day. Yeah. They will get married because they get more money and better housing. A lot more. Yeah. So they're like, you see these guys constantly are getting married, like, in the first year of enlistment right before they get it, which if you're getting married so you'll get a two-bedroom instead of a one, you have lost the plot, man. That's going to be a crazy marriage later. There's a lot of people that do it, though. I know. It's more money. Just in a relationship, they'll get married just because it gets extra. Let's get married. We get more money. Sure. Especially the guy that got into the service for the money, for the job. Couldn't find a job, exactly. So they got married, Brown, when he joined the service, and they moved to Sackett Harbor, New York. in 1987. What the fuck is that? It's Fort Drum is what it is. An army base here. Fort Drum. Michael is a soldier there, obviously. And he's in the... Oh, they move into an apartment, too. Number 506 is the apartment of the Shipyard Apartments on Monroe Street next to the Water Tower. Sounds lovely. Doesn't it? Just sound like... I see a lot of exposed pipes and brickwork. You know, it's like Soho down there. The shipyard next to the water tower. Next to the water tower. That is scenic. Yeah. So, anyway, that's where they are. Now, in May of 1987, Michael has to go to do two weeks of specialized field training. Yeah. So he has to do that. So he leaves, and obviously leaves Patsy home. She doesn't come with for the training. And, you know, back in the apartments here. now he comes home though from his training on May 21st 1987 and can't find her oh she's not there she's like shit did she leave me already where the hell is she but there's no note he contacts her family nobody's seen her nobody's talked to her he asks around and basically she was seen sunbathing on May 15th or 16th outside the apartments That's the last time anybody really saw her or had a track on her. So that was almost a week ago. She's up by the Watertown. So he's reporting her missing at this point. He's like, she's got to be missing. You know, there's no other way. They put out a missing persons thing that says she's 5 foot tall, 115 pounds, or 5'4", 115, brown eyes, brown hair with a scar below her right knee. Small lady. Yeah, a little thin. She's very pretty, too. And June 8, 1987, so this is, you know, two weeks later, a little over two weeks later. Yeah. There is a body that floats to the side of Lake Ontario. Oh, shit. Okay. The police describe it as a badly decomposed female body found floating in Black River Bay off of Storrs Harbor Road in the town of Houndsfield at about 9 p.m. a resident of a summer cottage was looking for firewood and found a woman, a badly decomposed woman floating in the river. See, don't look for anything. Just buy a cord from a guy down the road. There's a cord down there. Hopefully he doesn't slip a dead body into it, but when you're looking for things, when you're jogging, when you're driving and seeing a bag and you're curious about it, none of this stuff is good. You should leave it alone. It's always terrible. It's never going to be a good thing, I don't think. Never. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to feed your dog with Ollie. Ollie.com. O-L-L-I-E.com. 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And I reward all of this with the best cat food I can possibly find, which is Small's. It's great. This podcast is sponsored by Small's. After my cat didn't want the kibble, didn't want any of that, then we realized something, we've got to get something better here. Small's Cat Food is protein-packed recipes made with preservative-free, 100% human-grade ingredients you'd find in your fridge. That's the thing. You'll put the food down and be jealous of your cat. I go, that looks good. I'm going to have some of that with you. It's really good. It's delivered right to your door, and that's why Cats.com, name Smalls their best overall cat food. For a limited time, get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping when you head to Smalls.com slash STM. Super easy to start with Smalls, by the way. Share some info about your cat's diet, health, food preferences. Then Smalls puts together a personalized meal plan for your cat. Your cat deserves a personalized meal plan. 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Had to move a corpse to get it. So the investigators don't know the identity, and they're not really guessing until they perform an autopsy, because it's summertime and it's been in the water. So that's not good at all. The medical examiner was on scene where the body was recovered. The problem is it's not just Patsy that's missing here. There's a bunch of women missing? No, there's another woman that they don't know. So it's a woman from Watertown who may have drowned in the Black River. So there was shit and nobody could find her, which drains into Lake Ontario at the bay where the body was recovered. This is a woman who was a year and a half missing. So you should be able to tell the decomposition between a year and a half and a week and a half. You know, that should be a difference. But they said that this woman, Arlene Soluri, was despondent over her health. And in December 8, 1985, she disappeared. And her car was found abandoned near the Mill Street Bridge over the Black River. So they think she killed herself. So they were like, it would make sense if it was her, except obviously we should be able to tell. A year and a half. Is that how fast we decompose from in a week that we look like we've been dead a year and a half? That's what I mean. I think they have to make a positive ID. But it's pretty obvious here. So Michael, at this point, Patsy's husband, he's told of this. And he was told she was last seen by a neighbor sunbathing. And so he's asked by the media, and he says, I won't know anything until tomorrow. I've got to wait, basically. They told me they need to do proper identification. There's nothing I can do about it. Yeah. he said he is convinced though that Patsy did not leave on her own because their relationship was strong and there was no indication that she intended to leave for an extended period of time which honestly means nothing because guys have no idea you could be together we could be together for 25 years and your wife will be like this marriage is terrible and we're like what I thought it was great we have no fucking idea I've been wanting to leave for 12 years You have? What? Really? I thought we were the happiest people in the world. That's how dumb guys are. Yeah. We were dumb. We slept together in 14 years, so it took you two years. I just thought you were, you said you had some cramps at one point. I just figured you were. I said you had a headache. I was letting it be. I was letting it be. I figured you'd tell me when the cramps went away. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. It's a long headache. Yeah, but they're young and they just got together. So at that point, there might be some warning signs if you've only been together a year. you know what I mean? Hopefully, yeah. So he said it doesn't make sense and her car was parked in front of the apartment too, so she didn't even take her car, she just went off on foot. The doors were locked and a light was on when he got home. All of her clothing was intact in the closet, which is another, it's not like she packed up all her shit and left her car and her clothes are there. Stamped envelopes with checks that she wrote on May 14th are on the counter that she didn't get to mail yet. So she was paying bills. And then she was seen again on the 16th sunbathing, and that's it. So Michael said he thought, in his mind, he knows what happened. He said Patty was lured away by somebody that she knew casually probably, said that person could have told her that he had been injured in the field and was at a hospital or something. Maybe it was somebody she knew when she was going to visit. He said she grabbed her purse and jewelry and left a light on and maybe went with the acquaintance. There's no signs of a struggle, nothing like that. So eventually they identify Patsy in the next couple days. Or Patsy, I'm sorry. And it's Patsy in the river that they pulled out. It's pretty bad, too. They label the death a sexual homicide as well. Oh, Jesus. This is not good. She was so badly decomposed that they could not determine the exact cause of death. That's not good. That's really bad. That's bad. They said she apparently, probably, most likely drowned or strangled, but the autopsy was inconclusive. And they're waiting on further tests, too. But they've got evidence of sexual encounter. That they're pretty sure of based on the state of the way they found her. There's no injuries that can be found, no bullet wounds, no knife wounds, no broken bones, none of that. And it was believed she was carrying a purse and was wearing or carrying the jewelry that she always wore as well. And that's not on her body. None there. So they're saying if we can find the purse and the jewelry, we might be able to find whoever did this, basically. Unless they just discard it. But they never do. They never seem to. They keep it as a trophy. They sell it to such. At 87, they sell it to a pawn shop or some shit. They set it out on a motel bed and beat off to it. It's all crazy. That's what they do. They cover it in jizz on a nightly basis. It's your new jizz receptacle. So when he's got a, Michael has some speculations. He thinks that she was kidnapped, although the state police were treating it as a missing person. So he said, no, she is, I think she's kidnapped. And the police are like, well, we don't know. Which, I mean, if she's dead in a river, it seems like somebody with bad intentions took her. I mean, one way or another, yeah. In the end, she ended up that way. Right. Where she ended up is not somewhere she probably wanted to be, right? Yeah, exactly. And when she left the house, that wasn't where she expected. Right. She could have left the house, done something, and then done something legitimate that she wanted to do, and then somebody grabbed her. You don't know. So by August of 1987, they really don't have much on this at all. One acquaintance talked about Patsy saying she missed her, and she said that she and her husband were regulars at the Presbyterian church in town. and she said she said she enjoyed so much having her man by her side in church. Yeah. This doesn't sound like a lady that would take off right away. Yeah, rarely. She's telling her girlfriends how much she loves her husband. That's usually a good sign that she likes her husband. So one lady at a country store in town, a grandmotherly lady described in the paper here, said she came in here, nice girl, but we don't know what happened. No one seems to want to talk about it. It's a little strange, and it's a little scary, too. Yeah. Yeah, it's a small town. So there's a state trooper on the case here, Dick Ledoux. Yeah. Old Dick Ledoux over here. He's been a state trooper for 14 years, and he said that this is the toughest case he's ever encountered. Yeah. He said over the last few months, him and his investigators have put in hundreds of hours, and they're still at square one. They got nothing. Yeah. So Dick tells this reporter, and we'll get to the reporter's name in a second, because it's almost as good as Dick Ledoux. Ledoux's a dope last name. I'll get to it. I want to water down the contents. Trust me, we'll get to the Dick jokes here. Don't worry. Dick Ledoux. Dick Ledoux, yes. Dick told me that his, this is what the reporter's saying, Dick told me that his cop's gut told him the same thing that day as it did when he went to Zackett's to interview Michael Vineyard after he reported his wife missing. I still don't have a real feeling for what happened to her, Dick explained. Dick has no feeling for her. It's a problem. He just can't feel anything. What about that gut? Dick's like, if I just take this off, it'll feel better. I'm like, no, Dick. He said, officially, we call this a suspicious death. We've got nothing one way or the other. He said, there's three possibilities. I love when cops give you the absolute obvious. Yeah. Three possibilities. He said, usually when a young person dies, it's one, it's an accident. Two, it's suicide. Three, it's murder. How many other ways is there to go? Unless it's like two long-term illness, which she probably didn't have and then fell into a river. Her cancer caught up with her and then she just fell into a river because she was so weak. Is that what you're saying? Is there other options? What are we talking about? Yes, those are the three. accident, murder suicide never natural I guess no, not for a young person that's what he could probably say, it's rarely natural it's probably not natural when a 20 year old girl is found in the river it's probably not natural death is what we're saying so he said that the reporter said people that he asked in the village thought that Patsy was murdered and her husband thinks she was murdered obviously old Dick Ledoux though being a careful detective must not take any such big leap. His card has the blanks ready to be filled in. So Dick is on the case, don't you worry. He has a template, he just fills it in? Dick, yeah, Dick is tumescent and ready to go. He's going. So they said if there was an accident, the guess is that maybe this, you know, Patsy would have went to the river with some friends, maybe. Yeah. That's what young people do. Yeah. And they said, some of her friends said she was afraid of the water. and they said maybe she fell into the lake from one of the harbor's steep cliffs. They said, A, there would be her friends saying, we were at the cliffs that day. We saw her fall in. Or even if they had their backs turned, they'd go, one minute she's there, one minute she wasn't. That would be the last time we saw her rather than sunbathing. And, two, there's no broken bones. They say falling from that height, she'd have broken bones. She'd have hit rocks. And if you don't have broken bones, you have some sort of head contusion. You'd have to go unconscious. Totally. They said if it were a suicide, they said no motivation has been revealed so far. And this reporter keeps referring to this not as Detective Ledoux or Trooper Ledoux. They keep referring to him just as Dick, which is hilarious. Dick understands how it is for young military wives. I bet he does. If anyone understands the plight of a young military wife, it's Dick. Dick gets it. And that is the short name for a detective, too. That's fun. Yeah, he's a dick, all right. This dick over here, he knows what's up. Dick understands how it is for young military wives, especially wives away from home for the first time with nothing to do but wait for their husband to come home from maneuvers. Yeah. They said, but people always said the vineyards or vineyards, however you say it, acted like honeymooners. They were honeymooners. They just got fucking married. They're 20. They're very excited. They said, Dick goes on to say that Michael's kidnap theory is one of several possible scenarios. Oh. Yeah. So this reporter says, Dick and a colleague went to Knoxville to talk to family and friends of both husband and wife. We picked up a few leads, but not too much, Dick said. That's good. You don't want to pick up too much with your dick. That's bad. You don't want that. I picked up some shit. The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation has been very helpful. In fact, I'm still getting reports from them. Yeah. Cleared it all up. Cleared up all my dick stuff. He said the trip did clear up a rumor circulating in the village about Patsy's past. What was the rumor? Investigators were able to determine that she had been involved in a nude photography session when she was 14. You mean child porn production? Yes. You mean Roman Polanski was visiting her. What are we talking about? This is not good. This is bad. We confirmed it? Yes, because the photographers were arrested for it. Oh, good. for doing kiddie porn, for Christ's sake, and Patsy appeared as a witness. These men were given probation, and the troopers here don't think that this old case from six years ago from people who didn't even do prison time, they're going to come back to haunt and, you know, kidnap and murder her, probably. I don't know, if you've got six years of frustration because you're a pervert, you might take it out on her. You think they didn't go right back to what they were doing? Right, they'll find another kid. Dude, I read about all this in the bonus episodes we did for Dean Corll, reading about how some of these pedophile, these guys would get caught with thousands of pictures and videos, all this disgusting shit, and they'd go right back to doing it. Like, as soon as they got bailed out, they'd be right back to being perverts and scumbags. So Dick, who grew up in Watertown, thinks the answer may be in Sackett's Harbor, you know, where this happened. Right, right. He said, it's such a small town. How could she just slip away? Someone had to have seen her going out. It's hard to believe she just disappeared. Somehow she got from point A, the apartment, to point B, the bay. He said, say she was walking, which lots of people with cars do when they're going somewhere. Someone had to have seen her. Maybe it's someone who doesn't realize they've got something that could help us, But maybe it's just some little thing that someone thinks is unimportant that could open up the investigation. We've got to thoroughly investigate every little weed. Dick is thorough. Yeah, but a lady walking down the street doesn't fucking stand out as weird. No, especially in a town full of army wives. You know what I mean? Yeah, you probably don't even notice it. No, I wouldn't think so. You wouldn't. Yeah, especially if it was just somebody getting into a car, if it was a friend, if it was an acquaintance. If she's screaming and someone's, like, holding or ripping her by the hair, then you'd go to this. But otherwise, you probably wouldn't. They said detectives got confusing impressions from people in the village about Patsy. Dick says she was observed. She was a very pretty girl. But some people said she sometimes walked alone, and others said she never went out without a friend with her. So they got completely conflicting information that helps them not at all. And he says, we're not sure which it is. She's out by herself all the time. Another one says, oh, she was so careful. She always called me to go with her. How the hell do you fix that at this point? How do you know which one is true? And he said, the purse, which contains a checkbook with eight blank checks and pennies and bank key cards. Okay, so a JCPenney and a bank key card, an APM card, and a driver's license, and her jewelry are missing. They did extensive searches in the area, in the water, and on land, and haven't produced a clue, according to Dick. That's what the article says. It would make his day and maybe his year if someone found the purse or the checkbook. Michael is considering asking for a hardship discharge from the Army. He's having a hard time doing drills. That's not just like right out of the gate? If your family is murdered, you get the fuck out of here? I think if your young wife who lived on base is murdered, you go, so you want to take at least a leave, right? so you're not involved in this anymore obviously you have shit to heal from and also I can't have a dude whose wife was just murdered or is dead for that matter I can have that guy operating a fucking rifle you can have him operating a rifle and you don know if he had something to do with it or not at this point There's another point. That's another thing. I mean, obviously, he was away on drills, so he's the farthest thing from a suspect, and we're not sure. He had no reason to do it. Well, he didn't physically do it, but who knows if he had anything at all to do with it. We don't know. That's what he's got to be as a hitman. As a boss. Yeah, you have to at least think about that as a possibility, because you look at the people closest first. That's just how it is. So they said the crime doesn't really happen in this area, the Sackets Harbor area. They said that the last major crime was when the oldest resident at the time was 91 years old and was sexually attacked in her home. Oh, God. Who picks out the oldest woman in town and says, I'm going to go over there and fuck with her? That's gross. Fucking gross and disturbing. The last murder happened in 1980, and it was just two soldiers, or a soldier that killed his wife in the barracks, which is gone. So the guy who wrote this, his name is Dick Case. Is everybody named that? C-A-S-E, Dick Case, which sounds like a fucking insult. Hey, yo, Dick Case, what are you doing? Look at this Dick Case over here. It sounds like a total thing that somebody in, like, Jersey would call somebody. This is where you put your dick at night before you go to bed. I put it in my dick case for later. Save it. keeps it nice and clean. I put my retainer away. I put my dick in this case. So they interrogate the soldiers who weren't at the training, because most of the soldiers were at this training that Michael was at, these maneuvers. Now, one of these soldiers that they have a particular eye on for a second is a guy named Leslie Eugene Warren. Leslie is L-E-S-L-E-Y. He's the only guy in the story. L-E-S-L-E-Y. This is how you spell Leslie. Eugene Warren so they talked to him he says nothing that arouses any suspicion or anything like that they basically set up an interview room at Fort Drum and questioned 150 soldiers so it was more like a process of getting them all in and out I don't know how you can really concentrate on on one person if you have that volume of interrogations to do and they said there was not one shred of evidence ever suggested at that point that Leslie Warren was the perpetrator of anything. But he's an interesting guy, and it bears looking into. Leslie Eugene Warren was born October 15, 1967. So he's 20 years old at this point. He was born in Candler, North Carolina, which that becomes important later. He is the son of Douglas Eugene Warren and Phyllis Jean West. His mom, Phyllis, is from Texas. Now, Douglas is a severe alcoholic. Oh, his dad? His dad. Severe alcoholic, seems to have a hard time holding down a job. Okay. Whatever jobs he can find kind of moves from job to job. Sure. Not doing the bad. Just a horrible alcoholic. And Phyllis' mother, everybody says, was just overwhelmed by everything, from the kids to the husband because she's an abusive maniac. She's overwhelmed. They have, in 1970, his brother Leron is born. Leron Ray Warren is born. He'll come in later on. So this family is dysfunctional as shit. Dad is a violent alcoholic, and he put people in the hospital in the family. What's he do for work? Whatever he can. Mindful labor. Oh, boy, he's that kind of alcoholic. Whatever menial job he can find. Yep. he physically abused Phyllis he physically abused the children everyone was in constant fear of him coming home one of those things by 1971 the family's mobile home caught on fire so it's bad enough that you're living with an abusive alcoholic father but you also live in a trailer and that trailer catches on fire talk about no fucking luck imagine if you're Phyllis my life is a shit show nothing ever gets better it's a cloud of diarrhea my whole life. Every day. Like a hurricane. Fucking from the Gulf. It's crazy. So it almost killed Phyllis and one of the kids. Multiple sources said that Douglas, the father, may have intentionally set this fire, too. Oh. Which is crazy. With his wife and kids in the trailer. Nothing was ever proven, but everybody suspected him. because he's kind of an asshole. That's crazy. A relative of Douglas here, I think it's one of his brothers, said Doug was the type of man that would give you the shirt off his back, even if it left him with none. But Leslie's mother ran roughshod over Douglas, and life with her was beyond contentious. So according to Douglas' relatives, she shouldn't complain about getting the shit beaten out of her so much and the fact that he burns their home to the ground. Like, that should be, we should let that go. She's out of control of everything she does. Talk about a ball breaker. Jesus, I mean, can't even get drunk and beat the kids anymore without the wife complaining about it. Yeah. That's crazy. So that's not what we hear from anyone else. Everybody else has. Mom tried her best, but she's overwhelmed, and Dad was a nightmare. So that's how this goes. the brothers here. Also, Phyllis' mom openly favors Leron over Leslie. Ah, yeah. It's not, they said it's not subtle at all, just hardcore. I like him better. Leron's the baby? Yeah, three years younger. They said Phyllis would just shower him with attention and then would treat Leslie like, get away from here. Right in Les' face. Right in his face. And And part of it was Leslie had behavioral problems. Oh. But we're not sure if this caused the behavioral problems or if this is because of his behavioral problems. We're not sure. Because this will cause a behavioral problem. It'll certainly contribute to it, yeah. A kid will get attention. That's the thing. One way or another, they'll figure it out. They'll fucking get it, whether it's good or bad. Whether they give it or don't. Yeah, it'll happen. But 1973, Phyllis finally divorces Douglas. Finally. She's had enough. She's had enough. She's awarded full custody of the children and got a restraining order against her ex-husband. Oh. And this is in 73. So you had to show up with, like, your nose broken and both eyes black to get a fucking restraining order. His face has got to be leaning. Yeah. It's crazy. Douglas, shockingly, didn't take this well. No? That's weird. Abusive guys usually don't like it when you say, hey, stop being so abusive. They usually hate that. It's strange. Weird thing. So he stalked her. Stop beating your wife. How'd you find out? Yeah. She told everybody that. Yeah. Well, you know. He stalked her. He harassed her. He'd show up uninvited to places she was. You know the drill. Oh, boy. But he didn't give a shit about the kids. He'd stalk Phyllis but couldn't care less about the kids. He could pass them on the street and barely give them an acknowledgement. Like, he didn't care, which is crazy. It's wild. And so Dad Douglas here said that he had some problems after the divorce and didn't see much of Leslie after that. He said, quote, I really didn't know him. We were separated when he was three or four, and, you know, I didn't see him much after that. So that's basically said I abandoned my son at three. Just terrific. Jesus Christ. Not good. I guess there's a lot of people said that Douglas never wanted kids, and that's why he beat the shit out of them. Nice. But he married his wife on purpose, and he beat the shit out of her, too. So I think he just likes beating the shit out of people and being an abusive dick. I think he needs to have people close by so that he can do that. Yeah, got to be with an arm's reach. Yeah. They'll say you're going to beat the shit out of them. That's hard. Harder to do it if they're next door. Yeah. One of the relatives said his father was pretty bad to him, talking about Leslie. He never had anything to do with him unless he was busting his butt for something. Okay. Now, Dad has nothing to do with him, and he's in a house with Mom who dotes on younger brother and doesn't like him. Fun. So it's not too great. He's having some basically signs of some future red flags popping up here. In September of 74, he began attending the Emma Elementary School in Candler, and there's problems a lot. He's constantly fighting with the other kids in class. Yeah. Which, he's an abused kid. That's what they do a lot. Right. You know what I mean? You ever look back on kids now, think about kids from, like, the third, fourth grade who acted certain ways, and you go, oh, God, I wonder what was going on in their house. At the time, you just think that kid's an asshole. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now I think, oh, God, he couldn't have just been an asshole. He was nine. He had someone made him an asshole, you know? Yeah. Well, I guess, I mean, back, I don't think I, I don't even think I even considered it being a product of a household. I just considered them a fucking jerk. Yeah. If you're a child, a child is an independent entity. You don't think of them in terms of their parents and their house or any of that. You think of them in terms of they're here in front of me being a douchebag and trying to start a fight with me for no reason. Yeah, this behavior is unacceptable. But looking back now, I look back and go, oh, man, they must have been going through some bad shit at home. I wish I knew that then and could have gone up and been like, so your dad hits you a lot, huh? You know? So he didn't want to learn. Yeah. I mean, there's several kids that I wish I could go back and be like, when it's offered, don't try the meth. Don't try the meth. Well, yeah. You have to go back even further to the point of. Oh, so far. Yeah. when your uncle comes over when you're eight run away and hide in the closet because he's going to have fucking wandering fingers and shit like that. You know, when your mother leaves you somewhere call the cops. There's a lot of tips for those kids. But really, don't try the math. And then when you get to the point where you're like, this sucks. How can I possibly feel better? Ooh. Don't do that. That's where it ends, right there. You know how they did bad things to you? You're going to do worse things to get more meth. Isn't that nuts? Doesn't that sound crazy to you? I assure you. I've seen the news. So Leslie doesn't want to learn anything. He doesn't want to participate in sports or activities. Doesn't want to do anything. He's bullied relentlessly. Yeah, the kids are playing kickball. Don't want to play. All right. Shit like that. He's getting bullied a lot. his first and second grade teachers both later said that the mother, Phyllis, had told them that there had been a lot of abuse in the house and that the kids had been abused a lot. So they need to kind of explain his actions a little bit here. The school referred him to a clinical psychologist named William Matthews who tried to help whatever early 1970s child psychology was, tried to help him a little bit. And a lot of people tried over the years to help with him. By 1981, he's entering high school, Leslie, Irwin High School, and things are not better at this point. No? No, they're not at all. He started arguing violently with his mother. Now he'll say, you like Le'Ron better, and he'll express that. Yeah. Terrible in school, hanging out with the wrong crowd, just an angry. You can say his background, and you can predict this is what he's going to do. I mean, it's A plus B at this point. By 1982, he's 14 years old, and now he starts doing horrible things, as we'll talk about. This is crazy. He started mailing anonymous letters to other kids, other teenagers, threatening rape on them at 14. 14 years old. How many? Several? Several. several rape letters he wrote to young ladies around town okay they're all ladies yeah yeah he wasn't saying like hey bob i'm gonna rape you good like it wasn't like that it was you know i'm gonna scare women targeted yeah yeah uh he also begins committing burglaries and smoking weed and doing some coke as well okay which at 14 uh in 1982 that's pretty impressive that you even found some coke so it's very early on coke a little early on the coke he's a ground floor kind of guy here. He was arrested for vandalism and expelled from school. The authorities order a psychological evaluation. Alright. Good. He's sent to Brofton Hospital, which is a psychiatric facility, and their diagnosis is conduct disorder, schizoid personality disorder, and depression. At 14? At 14. A lot going on here. He's exhibiting some very severe mental health issues. And antisocial things. There's a lot going on here. A psychiatrist described Warren as, quote, unsocialized. It's like a puppy you've never taken around another dog. Not housebroken. Bark at people and try to bite the mailman and shit like that. Unsocialized. Someone who had not adequately learned social norms, lacked basic social skills, and exhibited chronic pessimism. Which is fine. That's half my family. Chronic pessimism, that's actually a good quality, right? Well, we only say that because that's what we are, is chronic pessimism. Yeah, but it does. We're like, yeah, you're just looking out for yourself. Yeah, totally. I mean, a chronic pessimist is like base floor is no. Like the baseline is, uh-uh, let's reexamine that. That's not going to work. Yeah, oh, it's all going to be bad. But for him, everything turns out bad. So how would you not be a pessimist? Yeah. Like, oh, it's better now that dad left. Well, maybe not. Now he won't pay attention to me at all. The trailer almost burned down, so it's like, who knows? So anyway, he undergoes treatment. It supposedly helped. The doctor said it's all shiny and new now. Here you go. He enrolled in Anka High School in September of 82. New, fresh start. Cleansley. Rebuilt. Yeah. 33 days that lasts. That lasts. Uh-oh. Not that. Yep. And he only attended 10 of the 33 days that he was enrolled. Not good. Help did nothing. October 82, his mother found weed in his room, and they argued, and Phyllis threw him out for the night. Okay. How old is he now? 15, 16? No, he's just turned 15. Okay. You can't say leave the house for the night. You throw the weed away, and you keep the kid. Yeah. You make him stay in his room. You take away any shit that he has that's cool. That's what you do. Or force them to smoke the whole bag. Yeah. Luckily, in 1982, the best he could have is a ColecoVision, so there's not a lot to take away. I'll take away your Atari out yet? Yeah, yeah. Your 13-inch black-and-white TV and your Atari with the E.T. game. I'll take that away from you. No more Lucy for you. No more Pitfall or fucking Jungle Hunt for you, my friend. Yeah. So I know Lucy. Yeah, that's for me watching. Is that for my late nights? Yeah. Black-and-white TV. That's what I did. That's what was on the middle of the night when we were kids. If you woke up at 2 a.m. in 1987, it was all night of Lucy. That's all it was on. So, anyway, they argued. She threw him out. The next day, Leslie returns to the house while his mother's gone, and he brings a gun. Leslie. Now he's got a gun. To mom's house. Where'd he get a fucking gun? Who knows? That's the thing. Who knows? He's a gun, coke. He's a pretty resourceful teenager. Very. If he could steer this towards something positive, he could, like, start a business and shit. Like, he could do something. He knows some adults that are bad guys somewhere. Or really shitty kids, one or the other. Yeah. So the next door neighbor is a woman named Betty Presley, and she's home alone. Presley saw Leslie come home? Presley saw Leslie, and now she's thinking this isn't the bestly. Right. This is bad. The worstly. So Leslie breaks into the house. Uh-huh. With a gun. Yeah. Drags this poor woman into the basement at gunpoint. Mom's home. Tied her up. Yeah. And holds her at gunpoint. Wow. We don't know what he's planning on doing, but he's got the next door neighbor, Betty, tied up in her own basement at gunpoint. Oh, it's not his mom. He went to the neighbor's house. Betty Presley, yeah. Right. It's different. He went to her house. Okay. Yeah. Otherwise, I wouldn't even mention Betty Presley. She had nothing to do with it. Right. I thought he was going home, and Betty Presley is witnessing him go home. Gotcha. No, no, no. She's in her house. He breaks into her house, drags her into the basement, ties her up, holds her at gunpoint. Got it. Which is above and beyond. That's far. Yeah. What more? Can you imagine that? Jesus. So then a friend of Betty's shows up looking for her. He couldn't find her, this guy, so he searched the house. He was looking for her. She's supposed to be there. He ends up going in the basement, and when he gets in the basement, he sees Leslie Warren holding his tied-up friend at gunpoint in the basement, which is horrifying. So this guy tries to attack Leslie because he sees he's a child, basically. He's not a very big guy anyway, so he attacks him. And there's a struggle, and Leslie shoots the guy. Wounds or murders? Shoots him. And then he fled. So the bullet misses the vital organs. He survives. And the friend is able to free Betty, and Betty is able to call the police. Okay. Now, he's the kid next door. She knows who he is. She knows who he is, yeah. This is not a planned out thing. This is terrible. It's very dumb. So he's arrested immediately. It's the kid next door. Easy. So during the interrogation, he admitted to everything. Okay. Said what he did and did all of that kind of thing. So he's awaiting trial in the county detention center. And while awaiting trial, about a month after he's arrested, he attempts to hang himself in a cell. Okay. So all the things he's doing are not 15-year-old things. No, this is very 45-year-old with a couple of crimes that the cops don't know about. Yeah, and a bunch of credit card debt. Yeah. That he really, oh, yeah, American Express? Yeah. We'll see about that fucking monthly interest rate. I'll cure that shit right now. So he was transferred here to a psychiatric hospital where they said his mental health improved. Did well. Now, he is convicted of kidnapping and attempted murder. Those apply, yeah. That's a lot. I'm convicted. Yeah, but he's a juvenile and he's only 15. Six, eight months. So he receives a very minor sentence. Rather than adult prison, he gets sent to the Juvenile Evaluation Center in Swannanoa. Yeah. Okay, so he's at juvie. Which I'm sure is not a cakewalk. Oh, no, that's awful. I've known kids who are in juvie. It sucks, but it's not adult prison. Right. You're not going to get, you know, fucking split in half by a 48-year-old angry man. That's helpful. So at juvie, he remains there until October of 85. And multiple shrinks evaluate him and multiple diagnoses are made. Different, of course, all over the place. Multiple treatment plans are attempted. And there is one particular counselor that is making progress with him. Oh, it's working. It's just one. Her name is Jamie Hurley, J-A-Y-M-E Hurley. Sure. They seem to be making progress. One of the other staff psychologists said about Leslie, he was kind of a quiet loner, intelligent, polite, well-mannered, and sincere. And he is intelligent, too. That's the other thing that pisses me off here. He's got the cogs to work it. He just doesn't have any belts to make them roll. It's really weird how many, I mean, it's a psychiatrist's job, but it's fascinating when they can find several qualities that are very positive. You put those on a Tinder profile, and that guy will get dates. Yeah. I mean, if you evaluate somebody for weeks at a time, you're going to find the bad. You're going to find the good. I mean, everybody's a sphere. Nobody is a one-dimensional. He's an attempted murdering kidnapper, though, and to have those qualities is dangerous. People said Ted Bundy was decent to watch a football game with. You know what I mean? You know? It doesn't mean he was a guy. Charismatic as fuck, yeah. So this person went on to say, Jamie noticed him because he was brighter than most. He liked to read and had some pretty adult-level novels. Oh. So he was, she saw him as a smarter kid that could do better than this, basically. So this is Jamie Denise Hurley. She's born February 6, 1951. She would bring him books and tell him that you can do it and, you know, try to. Encourage him. Thought he had potential, basically. She believed in his intelligence, and she trusted him enough to give him her phone number and tell him to stay in touch after he left. She said, I'd like to hear what you're up to later. You know, stay in touch, tell me when you're going to college and all that kind of shit. Yeah. Which seems weird. I mean, it's in the 80s, so it's a landline, so it's not like it's a... Exactly. It's just a landline. And so he's released from juvie, and he bounces between family members. For almost two years, he lived with his uncle Carl. and his uncle Carl is the one that said his dad just busted his butt for everything he did and didn't want anything to do with him. And Carl said, so he lived with him for almost two years in South Carolina, and Carl said, we never had any problems with him. Oh. So he gets out, and for two years it seems to have worked. Or at least Carl's the antidote. Something, yeah. And it might just be he has a male role model that he actually, that might be the gap that's filled in. I mean, mom is great, and mom could be mom, But sometimes a kid, sometimes psychologically kids are missing a piece of something or other, and that might have been the thing he was angry about. We don't know. So April of 1986, he's 18 years old, and he decides he's going to join the Army. Yeah. Join the Army, and he was stationed at Fort Benning in Georgia. And he gets in the Army, and he does great. Yeah. He's thriving. He's being watched over every second of every day. Structure is important. Some people in structure, they do great. Some people in structure, they do worse. It depends. I'm bad in structure. I can't be stared at every day all day. Can't do it. Can't do it. I won't do shit. Nope, I won't. The structure is terrible for me. I will be unproductive. Not to be a dick either. I'm not going to be good at it. You leave me the fuck alone, I'll do great. Or at least serviceable. I mean, I'll get things done. I'll do enough to not get fired. Yeah. Yeah. But I'll get things done at my pace. if you watch me, you'd fire me. Both ways. Either way. If you leave me alone, I'm still going to do the quality work that you're going to fire. Exactly. See, I'll do better if you leave me alone. Yeah. I'll definitely do better work. Yeah. If you saw it, you'd want to fire me. It's still not going to be up to snuff. Let's not be real. Let's not be crazy here. So he's stationed in Fort Benning, Georgia and doing well. Then he meets a young woman named Tracy Bradshaw and marries her. Oh. They're going to have a couple of kids. They have a son, Joshua, in 1988, January of 1988. Then he's going to have a second child not too far after that that we'll talk about. Look at Les, outgrowing it. He's doing great. Carl, Uncle Carl, says, I was pretty proud of him when he went into the service. I thought he was getting straightened out. Great. Late 1986, he's assigned to the 10th Mountain Division and transferred to Fort Drum in New York. And this was actually, they said, a good posting. The 10th Mountain Division, I think that's the thing that we went over on a live show. Yeah. The band, the 10th Mountain Division. There was a band in it, yeah. There was a band that was playing a festival somewhere. Right. And that's what I think it is, the 10th Mountain Division band. How about that? Apparently, this is a good posting. Was that a story in, it was up there, too? Wasn't it in Jersey? Was it in Woodbridge? It was in Jersey. Yeah, it was Woodbridge Township, I think. Yeah. So this is one of the Army's most deployed units, and it's known for mountain and cold weather readiness. God damn. They're good for that. So Leslie's looking great. Then May 15th comes around. We have Patsy Vineyard disappearing, and Michael and Leslie are soldiers together. And this is at the Company A of the 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry at Fort Drum. So Warren, they find out, Leslie Warren, did not go on the same exercises that Michael did that day in the Army. Okay. Remember, he was sent away. Yeah. Leslie was still at the base, and Michael was sent away, the husband, Patsy's husband. We don't know why he was excused. It could be injuries. It could be who knows. We don't know. He had laundry. We don't know why they would let him out of it, but he was excused for some reason or another. Michael comes home on May 21st, finds his wife missing. The checks are dated, all that kind of thing. And they question Leslie Warren, but he's one of 150 soldiers in the investigation. So he was never considered a serious suspect. They looked at his past and said, oh, Christ, he shot a guy, tied a woman up in the basement and all that. But he's also now in the Army, and this is what we do in the Army. We turn fuck-ups around and turn them into soldiers, and that's what we did. So he's fine. Like, if you're the Army, to say one of these guys did it is like, well, what we do doesn't work, is what you're saying. You know what I mean? Yeah. you send your kid here, we'll straighten him out. And it's like, well, not quite. I'm sure it's bad publicity if one of the soldiers did it, too. It can't be good publicity. Oh, God, that's maybe the worst, right? Yeah, it's got to be terrible. Was it Fort Bragg, Fort Hood? There was another fort recently. I don't remember. I don't remember. Guillen? Yeah, it was Guillen. Okay. Yeah, that's right. I think it's Texas. I don't remember. I don't know either. That's a good question, though. I'm not sure. So the police here, they think that Patsy is an unlikely victim for a violent crime because of her lifestyle and attitude. She's not somebody who's very calm and very tame. People who are like, oh, she goes to the bar every night or she goes here or she's got ten boyfriends or something. That's like there's more opportunity for people to get her is what they're saying, whereas she stays home, has a husband, doesn't really do much, kind of hangs out. So one of the detectives said it was felt that her killer was in all likelihood an acquaintance familiar with Patsy's vulnerabilities and aware that her husband was of necessity away on required military training exercises. So somebody with intimate knowledge about her life. Has to know her well and has to be able to get her to come with them and all that kind of shit. So the town reacts horribly to the murder. Sure. this Sackett's Harbor. I'm going to read from this article. This is Dick Case's article here, how it starts. In Sackett's Harbor, the mom and pop in Sackett's Harbor County. I'm sorry, Sackett's Harbor Country Store on Main Street, down the line from the battlefield. The Bay and Puddle Ducks Boutique. The store has drinks in the cooler, a modest meat counter, and 1812 tricorn hats on sale for $4.50. There is a piece of paper taped to the front window that just doesn't fit into the mood of a peaceable small town dozing next to a great lake in the middle of summer. The piece of paper is a New York State Police Information request flyer regarding the suspicious death of Patsy Diana Vineyard. The flyer carries a picture of Patsy. It's been there a while. Okay. Yeah. It's just so non... It doesn't fit in this town. It's so incongruous to what the town is. They found a body within a week and a half, though, right? This is information regarding their suspicious death they're looking for. By 1988, Warren starts fucking up. And it's dumb shit. He is convicted in the Army for stealing a pair of his platoon sergeant's boots. Why would you do that? Don't they give you boots in the Army? Yeah, you got your own. Those are issued, right? They give you some. It's not like this guy bought some sweet boots and they've got to have those. Yeah. You're trying to make him leave. Don't know why he did that. Just wanted him to get wet feet. Yeah. He put some water on the floor, stole his boots, and ran away giggling. I don't know. Then he disappeared from base from February 21st to February 25th, 1988. Yeah. So now he's AWOL, and he stole his platoon sergeants. His direct commanding officer's fucking boots, which is dumb. He's arrested by military police on February 25th, 1988. So they bring him back, and he goes AWOL again. Military police pick him up again, bring him back. He's court-martialed and sentenced to 75 days of confinement. He's fined and demoted from specialist to private first class. Not good. They kick him back down. So that's bad. I think that's a pay cut. That's a respect cut. It's a pay cut. Yeah, yeah. And your pension cut. Everything. Everything. That's bad. So April 28, 1988, he was ordered to continue his service at Fort Benjamin Harris in Indiana. So when he got out, they said, all right, now get your shit together and go there. He said, okay, and then went AWOL again. Didn't go, yeah. Instead of going to Fort Benjamin Harris in Indiana, he goes to New York City. which is basically the same thing. Yeah. You know, real similar places you're going here. After this is just a summer of debauchery he has. In the city? Absolute debauchery. This is wild. He lives in, like, fucking abandoned buildings and, like, you know, $8 motels that are just rented by the hour. He's a mess. He's just any kind of woman he can pay to do anything to him, he'll do. He gets really into crack. He's like, I've been hearing about this crack on the news. This is 88. Crack's pretty new. Yeah. All I keep hearing is crack, crack, crack, crack, crack. I got to try it. This is a need. Don't try the crack, Les. No, I got to. I think I've heard such good things about it, though. So on the news, those people seem to really like it when they're all addicted to it and everything. So that's what he does. June 17, 1988, the Army says we've had enough, and they finally, rather than arrest him and bring him in again, they just dishonorably discharge him. Oh, boy. You're gone. They said disorderly conduct and desertion. Goodbye. Desertions, that's the big one. They don't like that generally. It's kind of hard to be in the Army when you're not in the Army. Not much of a team player, which is kind of what the Army's all about. It's all everything. You've got to be at the Army to be in the Army. That's the problem. Generally. If you're away, it's not going to work. So, 1989, he goes back down to the Carolinas. He was born down there. He lived down there with his uncle and all that. He completes a three-month truck driver training program. Okay. You just know he saw a three-in-the-morning commercial and was like, trucking school, huh? Yeah, I'd like to make my own money on the open road. That sounds pretty good. I think I can do it. I think I can do it. He gets a job with ANCAM Transport Service, which is an Anderson, South Carolina-based trucking company. Sure. The personnel and safety director said that Leslie was a presentable applicant when he got the job and that his job performance was satisfactory. Okay. He's a trucker. Presentable applicant is fine. You show up in the morning and you drop it off later. Can you drive and read a clock? Yes. Great. There you go. You got it. So he was trying to get clean. He was also, he's married with a kid, remember, during this. Right. So he's also now trying to reconcile with his wife, who he knocked up again, and now she's pregnant. Oh, shit. So it looks like he's really got to get his shit together. That would be great. He's still only 21 goddamn years old, too. That's the other thing. So youthful. Holy shit, so youthful. He said that logically. That's hilarious. I wish I could be that youthful. He has it all. He's fucking up so bad for such a young man. So much. So he's working for the Amcam. This is the company that transports goods in 48 states and Canada, obviously the name. Yeah. And he works there from May until September 1989 when, according to the company, he left of his own accord. He just up and quit. Deserted? Deserted again. He's a deserter. When you quit a trucking job, thank fuck they don't call that deserting, too. Imagine if any shitty job you quit, they called it desertion. It was a crime. I wish I had a chance. I deserted Taco Bell when I was 17. That was what I did. My major act of desertion. Quitting must feel fucking great. It does. It feels fantastic. I can't imagine. It's great. Especially if you quit right before you're going to get fired, that feels even better. Oh, God. I win. Can't get me. I know what you were going to do. You said you had to talk to her later. I know what that is. I felt it. I just leave at lunch. Fuck you. He said, let me talk to you at the end of the day. And I said, nah, I'm going to go home now. I've been to this rodeo once or twice. I don't think so. I'll be going now. So he described, the guy at the company described Leslie as quiet and reserved. Nothing outstanding, just average. Okay. Nothing stood out. So anyway, here he is. He's married to Tracy. He's got two kids coming now. It's a mess. Let's introduce someone else into this complete mess. August 25, 1989. This is Velma Faye Gray. Velma Faye. She goes by Faye from what I found here. Faye Gray, born May 14, 1947. So she's, you know, 42 at this point. She's from Traveler's Rest. She lives and works. She works at Furman University, which we mentioned earlier. She's a typesetter at Furman. She's got a daughter and a son that are teenagers, late teenagers. Her son's about to go into college. Her daughter's already in college. And so she's also, in addition to this, she's a cool lady. She sounds cool as shit. But not only does she have all this, she's also divorced, you know, she's divorced with the kids. She also sings in a band. Really? Do we know what kind of band? Not sure. We assume there's a guitar and a guy with a beard. Probably. We can probably say what it is in this area. But it's called The Reflections, the band. Sounds like a Motown band. Yeah. Sounds like you should be dancing in a line in sync. And her brother's in the band as well. Oh. Yeah. So on this day of August 25, 1989, the Reflections appear. They drive all the way to Asheville, North Carolina, to do a show. They have a gig at the Elks Club in Asheville. Okay, like a lodge, one of those? Yeah, one of those lodges, exactly. And apparently they're a popular band on this circuit. There's a guy named Tiger Summit, who's a member of the Elks Club here, and he says that that night of the 25th of August, he saw Faye Gray singing with the band from about 9 p.m. this Saturday night to about 1 a.m. It was a long set. God damn. It was a four-hour set. Hopefully there's a lot of breaks, but Jesus Christ. So the band members left the building at around 1.15 a.m., and this is after Tiger Summit was the guy who locked the doors, so he knows when they left. He says the band was very friendly. They were very jovial. He said that, you know, there were no problems. None of them were fighting or there was no acrimony with anybody. Everybody was happy. They had a good time. There's, I guess, five people in the band. There's Gray, there's her brother and his wife, and then two other men. Oh. Okay. Now, one person, a woman named Velma, who saw the band that night at the Elks Club, said she was curious after overhearing Faye comment about getting harassing telephone calls. so she was eavesdropping and she said that one of the men in the band suggested she get an answering machine this is 88 not everybody has an answering any kind of answering machine so they're sitting in between songs talking about how she's getting harassed and one of the guys says just stop at an answering machine it's easy you don't have to pick up the phone for anybody stop listening to heavy breathing let them do it on the tape yeah there you go and then you can just erase it hit the delete button or then you got evidence either way either way, she said she didn't want to because her mother would have difficulty with it. She's older and she doesn't know how to do this type of shit. So I'm not going to put my 80-year-old mother into an answering machine. She said that the guy, Tiger Summit, said that he had seen the Reflections perform about six times. Wow. So she's like a groupie at this point. Yeah. He said that Faye was the lead singer and she seemed to be in good spirits that night because the next day her youngest child was leaving for college. And she was excited about that for him. He was going to, I think, like a Bible college or something like that. They said the Reverend Grady Hall of Hendersonville, the Hendersonville Upward Kelly Memorial Baptist Church in Hendersonville, which is Gray's childhood church, said he said his daughter Dolores is married to Faye's brother and is a member of the Reflections as well. That's complicated. Oh, that's the lady. Yeah. That's another lady. Okay. Now, we know that she's driving home. Now, normally the band all drives together, and then they'll stop at the diner afterwards or some shit, but she wants to get home because she has to get up in the morning to send her young son, not young son, her son off to college. Yeah. She's got to go to work. Yeah, so she has to drive all the way from Asheville, and she's driving a 1985 Mazda RX-7. What? Hot fucking ride. That's a cool little car. A rotary motor? That's a dope car. I love those RX-7s with the pop-up headlights. Yeah. I love those fucking cars. That shit's like $35,000, $40,000 today. You can't get those. I was just thinking, man, I'd love to get one of those. I wonder how you get that. Boy, are they expensive. They're expensive. They're like an old 300Z or something. It's one of those. Yeah, 280, 240s. They're all... Any of those. All that shit is... Anything cool. James, an 85 car is 40 years old. It's a collector's item now. Yeah, but most of them are shit and they're worth nothing. But there was like four cool models of cars that were out in the 80s. That's the problem. There wasn't a lot of them. You know what I mean? But that's like having, in 97, having a 57 Chevy. It's a 40-year-old car. Except that was an iconic car. And an 85 Chevy is not an iconic car. The RX-7 sure is. The RX-7, that's what I mean. But there's like three cool cars from that era. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you look at 1965, there's like 30 cool cars. Oh, there's so many. There's like three from 1985, maybe. And that's pushing it. I can't tell you enough. I've been looking. Because I was born in 81. I want a cool car from 81. There is fucking nothing. 81 is maybe the worst year for cars. That's a real stupid year. Every car sucks. Every car sucks from that year. Even the Camaros and the Vets. That sucks. For over 130 horsepower. They're like a lawnmower. It's not great. Literally 180 horsepower Camaro. Fuck you. That's horrifying. so back to her driving home here she's ready to send the kid off to college she took her own car so she could bypass all the other shit so anyway she said she was doing this one of her bandmates said she wasn't afraid of the darkness which is a weird way to put she got her mind driving at night she wasn't afraid of the darkness she embraced the darkness man she wasn't scared of Charlie Murphy exactly Darkness is. So, yeah, that is old ridiculous. He said she wasn't afraid to do what she did. She wanted to get home quicker than the rest of the group did. All right. Made her sound like a real cowboy who was, like, going around. I don't care if that's Indian country. I'm going to ride my horse right through it. Like, what the fuck? She's going to drive it with her headlights off. She's not afraid. No. She's wild Bill Hickok over here. So somewhere along White Horse Extension Road, which is between 5 and 10 miles from her home, she gets almost home. It's in Traveler's Rest. She wrecks her car. Oh. She hits something and fucks her car up. Oh. So she's stranded on the side of the road. and from what witnesses say, because there were several witnesses that saw her stranded on the side of the road, they said they saw an 18-wheeler pull over, a tractor-trailer pull over, and the driver offering to help. So they figured, oh, all the other people said, oh, someone's already helping. I'm good. I kept driving. Yeah. So August 27th, 1989, the next day, two fishermen are out near the Highway 9 bridge. This is within eight hours of her leaving the gig, by the way. Yeah, yeah. And they find Faye Gray's body floating face down at 7, 10 a.m. Under the bridge. Under the bridge downtown. Oh, boy. That's it. That's what happened here. So this is literally 1.15 they left the gig, so it's less than six hours later she's found. This is about 30 yards off the south shore of Lake Bowen, which is just east of South Carolina Highway 9 Bridge. They said that she was wearing shorts with a black print on a white background and a tank top. And she was wearing several pieces of jewelry, including a necklace, a cluster ring, and a watch when she's found, too. So robbery doesn't seem to be the motive here. Yeah. They said, here's the other disturbing part. Her hands are tied behind her back with shoelaces. Oh, boy. So this is, that is, when you see that. It's not a good sign. And she appears to have been beaten in the face. Jesus. That's horrifying. She died of asphyxiation. Yeah. And they believe she was strangled. She'd also been sexually assaulted. Good Lord. So tied up, raked, beaten, strangled. This is horrifying. There's a monster on the loose. Yeah, this is Ted Bundy shit is what this is. This is bad stuff. This is Green River killer shit here. Yeah. So now her brother recalled how, you know, we were just at this gathering. I don't understand. We just had this show. Beautiful night. It makes no sense. He said that, you know, they went in two separate cars just after they finished playing. He said she left first, but they passed each other on the road, and she blinked her lights at him. So she went out driving. She made it out of town. Yeah. He said he never saw her alive again. That was it. Fuck. Her cousin, Shirley, said that Faye was a kind, happy-go-lucky person who always tried to cheer others up. She said this is something that happens on the news. It doesn't happen to you. She was just a doll. She doesn't pick up hitchhikers. This had to be forced on her because she's not that careless. The only thing I can see is that somewhere between here and Asheville, she stopped for coffee and somebody got in the car with her. That's the cousin's thing. Maybe she stopped somewhere to stay awake, and maybe somebody was down their luck and gave her a sob story and talked her into giving them a ride, and that's how this happened. Now, her job, everyone is horrified there. The Furman spokesperson said she was extremely popular. Obviously, we're very saddened and shocked. I don't think it's sunk in here yet. She was a very nice lady, congenial and outgoing. Now, you think with this, at least there's a car here. Right. So that car can hold physical evidence more than a body. Right. Just where has she been between the car and the bridge. Right. And if somebody was in her car, they'd leave some evidence. So the car is something they're looking for. They end up finding her car a couple days later. Not where she left it, though. Oh. Not where she got in the accident. They find it in a remote area of Greenville County. The left side is damaged. So you can see she's in the driver's side. Maybe she fell asleep at a guardrail. We have no idea. The passenger window was down and the gas tank lid was open. License plate was missing. That's interesting. Somebody hyping the gas out of the goddamn thing or what? Trying to make a fire or something. So a man is arrested. Oh. That stole the car. Really? Lee Stroud is his name. He's a young guy in his 20s. He is from Traveler Rest He charged with grand larceny of an auto after he surrendered to the sheriff department They say they have basically they have two suspects in this case so far and he's one of them. A search of the area found her car, and they said the car, though, did not produce any new information in the death. They said the site, which had previously been searched, is about four miles from where she lived. why'd Scott have the car does he give an explanation why according to a statement issued he said he saw the abandoned car off the White Horse Road extension about 100 feet from US 25 and he just got in it he said the keys were in it we've got far too many of these shows if I see anything that's valuable and belongs I'm not touching that I'm not putting my fingerprints on that he knew he was stealing it he wasn't saying it was just abandoned I never assumed the person was missing no maybe they got taken by aliens we don't know maybe they don't need this anymore but he said that he stood there and he watched it for a while nobody came to get it and he was like I guess I'll just take it it must be mine now anything you see out there nobody touches it for an hour it's just yours now just stand by and watch it houses, cars, things, whatever businesses we walk away Yeah. Ever wanted to run an insurance company? Just stand outside. If you don't see any activity for an hour, it's yours now. Plant a flag outside. Walk away. So he said he drove the Mazda around for about an hour and then dumped it in a field off Allen Road where they found it. Yeah. He is cleared as a suspect in the murder. He has alibis for all this, and we'll find out the witnesses that saw the trucker talk to her don't identify him. He just found an abandoned vehicle and took it and has terrible luck. He's a thief with awful luck, essentially. He deserves that. Yeah. The cops said they're looking for a trucker because they witnessed saw a tractor trailer driver pull up and park near them now. And detectives believe she was taken from her car after this accident, and that's what happened here. They're looking for a trucker. the family, her family offers a $3,000 reward and then raises it to $5,000 for any information. Wow. Which feels like that should be what the police are doing, not the family shouldn't have to do that. You know what I mean? Yeah. In 85, they're taking a dead ass serious. That's a lot of money. Yeah. So the police, they end up questioning, guess who? Les? Leslie Warren. Yeah, absolutely. Les who? He's questioned early on, too. Yeah. He's a truck driver. Right. We were in the, he's possibly in the area. He told the cops, though, that he didn't stop at all in South Carolina that night. Just didn't stop. And they were like, okay, sure. But then a witness reported seeing a truck pull off the road, like we said. Yeah. Now, the truck belonged to, they knew the company name on the truck, which is Amcan Trucking. Yeah. Which is, obviously, his children are like, well, somebody works. And you were in South Carolina that night. And he said, I never stopped. Okay. So the cops said all of the drivers were questioned, and he happened to be one of the drivers. Just like all the soldiers were questioned, he happened to be one of the soldiers. Just a simple coincidence. So the Asheville police called the Spartanburg Sheriff's Office because they knew that Leslie had ties to that area. and they said that gave South Carolina authorities more reason to look specifically at him rather than just as one of the truckers they had talked to. Sure. So now it's all like, we don't trust this guy. Then May 25, 1990 comes around. So this is a year later in Asheville, North Carolina. Remember where she was at? Yeah, where she was at and did that show. This is Jamie Denise Hurley. Remember her? July yes she is the kind woman who at the juvenile detention center saw potential in Leslie and her books give him his phone number keep in touch and all that kind of thing now a little bit about Jamie here she is a graduate of UNC Asheville has a degree in psychology wonderful a caring lovely woman respected and liked by co-workers she said she has her plants and her cats and her students and she's passionate, she would cook holiday dinners for the troubled teenagers at the evaluation center. They said giving many of them their first, like, family holiday meal they've ever had and shit like that. Amazing, yeah. One of her coworkers said for some this was the first time they ever had that and that they ever sat down to a set table and passed dishes. Wow. So, yeah, she had worked at the center from 76 to 88, so until very recently. Sure. And during that time, she had tried to help Leslie Warren because he was smart. And she encouraged him to stay in touch. Her friend, another psychologist, said there was no kind of romantic involvement at all, but he manipulated Jamie to the point where she trusted him. As professionals, all of us missed any kind of warning signs on him. So nobody recognized anything weird? No, they just thought he was a smart, good kid that just didn't have any guidance, so they were going to help him out. That's it. So, okay. Jamie ends up disappearing from her home in Asheville. Oh, no. On this day. Now, she was last seen at a grocery store, and then she went home, and then she disappeared. Her car's in the driveway. House lights are on, doors locked, and her cats are inside. Yeah. And her co-worker said, when I saw those cats, I knew Jamie was in trouble, meaning her cats aren't being tended to. Something wrong. Yeah. Yeah, she's not here and they are. If she goes somewhere, she takes them with her? She's not going to do. No, no, that they're not cared for. She's never going anywhere. Yeah, her cats are cared for. If you walk in and the cats are, we don't have any food, then something's wrong with Jamie, basically. So, they end up talking to who, you may ask? Les. Leslie. Yeah. How many missing, presumed dead women have you been questioned in the disappearance of? Oh, shit. I mean, we're both in our 40s. We've been around a little bit. I mean, it's a bit of a life experience by now. Yeah. Life experience. I think I'm still right at zero. I was going to say, I can't think of three different women I've been questioned about that I can't think of as a matter of fact. Right on zero. Very strangely, I'm going to go at zero for me, too. Most of the girls I've ever been interested in, they've got a lot of shit going on. Plenty of people wanting to kill them. Plenty of potential suspects there. That wasn't just me in their lives. Yeah, they got other shit going on. They're not worried about me. So Asheville Police Captain Ted Lambert here said that he learned that Leslie had been at Jamie's house the day before. Oh. Anybody that's been around anytime soon, anytime recently, they want to talk to. He's coming around, huh? Coming around. and they found out that she had been his counselor too and they're like, that's weird. In February of 1990, a couple months earlier, Leslie Warren had called Jamie for the first time in years and he told her that he needed help and she agreed to meet with him and we feel like this is the culmination of that. So, yeah, this is interesting. Now, he is jailed for some minor charges at this point as well and they're suspicious of him. but he refused to say anything or any of that kind of shit. There's no... There's no... Very boring conversation? Conversation. I don't know. Yeah, she helped me out a lot. Did you do anything to her? No. I don't know. Yeah, I talked to her because she helped me. Yeah, that's it. That's all he would say. She gave me her number. Told me to call. Yeah, she just gave me her number. I was... Seems like it's an explanation. So May 28, 1990, he's taken back in for questioning again. And the police say, can we search your van? He's got a 1968 Chevy van. That's the van right there. Yeah, that's not bad. He let police search the van. And when they search the van, they find one of Jamie's favorite purses in his van. He still has it? He hasn't at all. He has her purse. Yeah. That's not good. And her favorite one. Yeah. Now he's got, so he's a suspect. Things look suspicious. He popped up. He's got, she's missing, and he's got her purse in his van. Not good. This is at least, you've got to hold this guy for a minute, right? Yeah. They have some physical evidence. They have a connection. They know each other. But they have no body. So they literally say, no body, no crime. No body, no crime. They were like, we can't do anything about it. We don't even know if she's missing. We don't even know if she's dead. So how are we going to charge the guy with anything? I'm so glad that's out the window, right? What? If they're... The nobody. Oh, the nobody, no crime. Yeah, now it's over. Because now there's DNA and shit. Back then, the physical evidence was so whatever. But now it's like if you find a big blood puddle of somebody's DNA on the ground, it's probably dead. Big blood puddle and their fucking bank account hasn't moved. Yeah, probably dead. During the interrogation, he said he, quote, might need a lawyer, which is not asking for a lawyer legally. You just might need one. A hundred times. You go, I might need a lawyer. They go, well, if you want a lawyer, ask for a lawyer. Otherwise, I'll keep talking to you because that's not asking for a lawyer. I'm not going to say that out loud, but yeah. I might need it. You know what I mean? You might, yeah. So they said they keep questioning him here. And as they keep questioning, he says, okay, fine. I know what happened to her. I didn't kill her, though. Oh. He said, we were hanging out. We were partying. and she overdosed. Oh. This woman has no history of drugs. She doesn't like drugs. Oh, she's hardcore. Yeah, that's why all the kids like her. He said that we were partying and she died of a drug overdose and he said, I fucking panicked because she died of a drug overdose so I just took her and dumped her body in the French Broad River. So if you look in there, you'll find her but I just dumped her body in the river. I panicked. I was like, what do I do? I pushed her out of the van. That is like the worst thing to say. That's his story. So you're like, Jesus, that's either true or the truth is so much worse. Holy fuck. Wow. So they arrest him, but not for that, not for disposing of a body, not for you're full of shit, we think you murdered her. None of that. He's arrested on a misdemeanor larceny charge for having her purse and a traffic offense of not having his registration right on his van. We'll deal with the other shit. Come as it may. But this is it. Here. So that's so they can hold him for a minute and have some bail that he has to raise that he doesn't have at the moment. This is when they search the river. Their goal is search the river, find the body, charge him before he gets out on bail, essentially. So they're all hands on deck. A helicopter, boats, divers, you name it. Find the body. French Broad River. Asheville police captain said they began to search the river and they were receiving information that she would be found there. They declined to say where the information came from. We know it's Leslie. But he said that they will continue the search for her body, quote, until we find her. Oh. That's what they said. The Captain Dean Crisp. That's a cool name. I'm Captain Crisp, which is Captain. They were going to call Captain Crunch Captain Crisp, and they were like, it doesn't have that pop to it. Captain Crisp? I don't like it. Crispy, I mean, they got the crispy crisp. Crunch feels more hardcore, doesn't it? Yeah, it's crunch, not crisp. Yeah, that's right. This guy said that the Sheriff's Department is committed to the search until evidence or information takes us someplace else. Either we find her or someone tells us she's not here, we're going to keep searching. We're going to go until Sergeant Snap tells us to stop. But then you don't want to mess with Captain Crackle. He is tough. He is tough. And Chief Pop is nobody to be trifled with. So the Sheriff's Department's Mobile Emergency Tactical Team, their underwater investigative unit searches underwater. The search had divers covering a lot of the same ground they covered the day before. They're combing the banks. They said it's basically murky water that you can't see a foot in front of your face. So they have to go over it. You've got to look over it again and again and again. And things move, too, underwater. Underwater, yeah. If you search here before tomorrow, it could have a body there. Yep, things could be moved. Things could be dislodged. It could be caught in a log. Sure. Anything could happen. And the sergeant here said, we want to triple and quadruple check the ground we covered before we move on. We have to be absolutely certain. So divers charged in a pendulum search pattern, doing a grid pattern, using ropes to divide the river into sections. So this isn't willy-nilly fucking around. They said, we basically have an inch-by-inch search, Captain Crisp said. That's just so funny. They said that he added that the grid pattern allowed divers to search between 10,000 and 15,000 square feet of river bottom a day. That's a lot. That's a lot. They said they concentrated their efforts about 50 feet downstream from where police information indicates the body entered the water. He said, I dumped her off here, so we think she'd be about here based on patterns and such. They found nothing. Well, actually, 10,000 square feet a day is not that much, is it? Not when you have 40 people doing it, no. Right. That's not much at all. It's slow going. Yeah. So they find nothing. for days. After five days, they said there's nothing here to search every inch of this fucking place. So on June 6, 1990, now Leslie's bail is $25,000 but somehow if you pay a $1,000 bond you can get out of that. I don't know how that works. That's not 10%. His grandfather pays the bond and gets him out. They don't have enough evidence to charge him with anything. They should have enough evidence. He said he dumped a body in the river, whether they find it or not. I mean, you said, I guess, I mean, yeah, but you... I could say, I... Yeah. A lot of people say they killed people. And they did, and they did. They didn't do shit. That's some kind of evidence, so... And he's a mental patient that sees a psychiatrist, and there's probably somewhere along the line somebody going, he's just fucking crazy. Yeah, but he doesn't have, like, any real mental... Other than his, like, teenage evaluations when he was 13, there's not really any mental illness on his jacket here at all. The army didn't find any. You know what I mean? I don't even know if they would know about that. Or anything about that. I mean, who knows? They just might think he stole the purse and was trying to make it sound better. I don't know. So he gets out and he's going to hang out with his family. With his wife and his two kids. Up in New York? Got a baby. No, no, no. They're down there. His wife and two kids. They're with him. So Tracy and the children, he said, let's take a drive. Let's take a drive to the National Forest. Pisgah? Pisgah? P-I-S-G-A-H. Pisgah? Yeah. That's the best one I can come up with. Pisgah. Pisgah, yeah. I'm going to go Pisgah? Pisgah? It's probably, who knows? That National Forest here. Yeah. And he brings the family, his wife and his two kids, to a spot. Isn't that nice? Yeah. You think he's going to say, let's put down a blanket and have a picnic. I brought some fried chicken. It's in a basket in the trunk. Yeah. You know. It's a nice little foldable basket. Instead, he looks to his wife and longingly looks into her eyes and he said, I killed that Jamie woman and this is where she's buried, right where we're standing. Stop it. She's like, huh? Why did you say that? What the fuck? Holy shit. Then he calls his mother later and tells his mother, Phyllis, that, hey, remember when I was in the army and that lady went missing and they questioned me? Patsy? I killed her. Why is he doing this? He tells his mom that. So on June 8th, his mom calls the cops. Phyllis calls the cops and says, my son said that he killed a lady up in New York that was killed and all this type of shit. Yeah. So the cops are like, holy shit. So now they're like, hey, do you notice that all of these murders we've talked to him for? Right. That's when they start connecting it because they're like New York. So they call New York up and they talk to them and they're like, OK. And then they're like, but he was taught. Holy shit. He's been talked to for three fucking murders so far. Yeah. This is scary. So now he's a prime suspect, but he's still not under arrest. Yeah, because you got to prove something, right? You got to have some sort of evidence. someone's mom calling up and saying he said he did something bad isn't enough to arrest someone for murder. That's wild. So the Asheville Police Department contacted the Spartanburg Sheriff's Department seeking background information on Leslie and they started to compare the Jamie Hurley and the Velma Faye Gray cases together. July 10, 1990 Leslie takes off. He's gone. He's going to run. He was scheduled to appear in court on the theft charge for Jamie's purse. Right. But on July 11th, he stole a black and gray Kawasaki motorcycle and took off. Wow. Fucking renegade over here. Those don't. They go fast. That is true. But they go fast to a very short distance. Unless you've got a helmet on. If you've got a helmet on, they can't see shit. I mean, they can see a man of your size on there or whatever. It seems like a car would be more of a. Yeah. They go fast as shit just for a very short distance. They don't go near as far as a car. You need to keep putting gas in them. That's the problem. He also changes his name, uses the name Brian Haley Dunn Collins, which is names of a bunch of his half-brothers that he just put together. Amalgamation of all this shit. And that's crazy. He heads to High Point, North Carolina on his bike. We'll talk about what he's doing there. He ends up with a different bike by the time he gets there, which is crazy. He must have, that one's out of gas, dumped it off. So July 18, 1990, there's another call to the cops from a very unexpected source. It's Leron. Oh, his brother. Leron, his little brother. Leron contacts the police, and he said, I have to tell you of a crime I did. Oh, Leron did a crime. Leron. He said, I helped my brother Leslie bury Jamie Hurley's body. What? Power into something. And he said, I'll tell you exactly where to find it. Why did Leron feel guilty? The Pisgah National Forest. Yeah? I think maybe his mother, because Phyllis probably talked to him. Your brother did this, and then probably it went from there, I would think. Yeah. Yeah. They said the terrain was brutal, rocky, remote, and infested with poisonous snakes, by the way. Oh, nice. That's lovely. They killed, in their investigation, they killed at least six venomous snakes. Ah, Jesus. Jesus Christ. I just picture a guy unloading a service revolver at the fucking ground, hoping he hits something. Probably with a shovel, though, right? They probably just quit taking their heads off of these fucking things. That's what I saw my friend do in Arizona with a rattlesnake. He took a giant shovel and just cut its head off. I was like, whoa. It's scary. And they don't like, I mean, in the movies and stuff, things just die. But those things just keep flipping around. No head. He started digging a hole. And I was like, what are you doing? He goes, you've got to bury the head. I was like, what are you talking about? He's going to bite you for like two hours. I was like, are you kidding me? How long have you lived in the desert? What are you, Snoopy's brother? What's happening? And the venom's not in that body. It's right there in the jaws, babe. It's all there. So you had to bury that. Where A1 Sauce gets you. Right there. He made a thing with the rattle. I was like, weird. So anyway, they dig up, and they end up finding Jamie Hurley's body. It is there. It's there, buried in a shallow grave 210 feet from the paved road. Is it where they were standing? It's right where he was with his wife, and it's right where his brother said it was. she'd been buried naked covered with rocks and a large engine part on top of her too and then buried so this is pretty crazy here now where the hell is Leslie because now they have a body where did he run on to now it's time to put the cuffs on and where the fuck is he well we know where he is he moved in with a friend of his oh yeah an old acquaintance named Terry Quinby who's a woman Terry Quinby has a couple of kids and shit, by the way, at her house in High Point, North Carolina where he went. She's a cocktail waitress and her brother had played softball with Leslie. That's how they know each other. Beer league, yeah. Beer league softball. A getaway. And Terry Quinby said, sure, you can sleep on my couch. I don't mind. I only have a couple kids in the house and everything. Feel free. So he rolled into town on a Honda Vulcan 750 motorcycle. Wow. With only a duffel bag. Rolled up like Lorenzo Lamas in there, just like a vest with no shirt on, open, flapping in the breeze, no helmet. Like the guy that dates Aaron Brockovich. Yeah, totally. This is fucking ridiculous. So, anyway, I guess they knew his, Leslie and his wife and kids also used to live next to Terry's sister in a trailer in Asheville. Alright. That's how this... They all know each other. It's all some big trashy finger-fucking. Warren just shows up. At this point, too, he's got a crazy hairdo. Not crazy, but it's like he's got lines shaved in the side that's all spiky and he dyes it different colors. It's strawberry blonde now, but it's going to be orange later. It's weird. What year is this? 89, 90. Yeah. He's doing some punk rock shit here. He told Terry that he was, quote, just passing through, as you do on your Vulcan 750 with your duffel bag strewn over your shoulder. The worst motorcycle. Yeah. Piece of shit. So he slept on the couch, and Leslie was nice to her and her two young children. And he, within a week, befriended all of Terry's friends and just ingratiated himself to the whole plan here, the whole area. And Terry said everybody that met him liked him. All they did was sit around and barbecue and drink beer. Well, it's really hard to dislike people when you're drinking and eating barbecue. I don't like anybody. If they keep handing me beers and ribs and shit, I'll eat that all day. Are you kidding me? I'll sit around on a picnic table, drink beers, and eat cheeseburgers with somebody. With anybody. Yeah. Pretty much. Shit. Until the cheeseburgers run out, you're a good time. And the beer. So one thing that Leslie had said to Terry stuck in her mind. He told her that he and a girlfriend had been shooting cocaine, which right away, like, so you can get the fuck out of my house with my kids. Right away, because even if you aren't going to be shooting cocaine in my house, you probably have hepatitis or something. Get the fuck out. It's a brave thing to do. Why? Why? Just kick someone out for having hepatitis. But if they're doing it from shooting cocaine and might be doing that more, the combination globally, fuck off. so he said that she filled her dose in a needle and injected it and then overdosed. Oh. So he said he panicked and threw her body in the French Broad River again, which is what he called the cops. Yeah. Why is he telling people all this stuff? Well, the cops let him go when he told them that, so I don't know why he'd bring that up to her at all, though. That makes no sense. That was just very impressive. But they're drinking every night, so I think maybe after ten beers and a bunch of brisket you might get hammed. Yeah, ham-dickled, and then you run out of things to talk about, and then you just go, I killed somebody one time. Let me tell you about a dead body. That's what you do. So he said, and he told her, too, that he had told the cops the story and that they accepted the story, and clearly they didn't arrest him or put him in jail because here he is. I'm not guilty of nothing. Yeah, he said, the cops know about it. Well, I didn't make me a bad guy that I did that. No, it's fine. Later on, when she found out that the cops had made a search of the French Broad River, and then her body was found later on, Terry Quimby was a little freaked out here. The story about the river was something, but also Terry said that he had even accompanied her to the magistrate's office that week on a matter that she had dealt with. So her thoughts were, well, if he was on the run, he would be afraid to go to the magistrate's office. He wouldn't want to go near anybody with a badge. so she didn't think anything of it. Then July 15, 1990 at Cedro Park C-E-D-R-O-W Cedro, I guess? I don't know. Cedro Park is the Radisson employee picnic. Radisson hotels from the area. The company picnic is that the Cedro Park? Nowadays, they'd never give you a picnic. You'd be lucky to get a $10 Amazon card for Christmas from these fucking people or definitely not have any picnics in these companies. I don't think any of them do anything does a company picnic anymore. They've lowered it, so I'm not going to get into the economics of it, but it used to be you needed write-offs, so you did nice things for your employees, you made nice buildings, you made things that last, and now it's just put a cardboard thing up and fuck these disposable people. They've also passed some laws where that shit, it's a financial thing where your employee has to pay the taxes on it. It's not a tax deductible for the company anymore. A bonus, not for a picnic. It's just any reward. You don't have to claim pizza night on your taxes. They gave me three Domino's pizzas at the office. I don't know. I am not an accountant. Neither of us are. I've never been more positive that if your company buys you pizza, you don't have to go tell your accountant to put that on your taxes. I'm pretty sure about that. I think it has to be a monetary or a product. I don't know if there's a two for $5.99, so just put that on there. Put that on there. You owe an extra 80 cents for Domino's that night. I'm not sure. I don't know, but I know that if it's a monetary thing, if there's a dollar value, then you have to be able to pay taxes on it. Some hot dogs at the park. I can't imagine that that's going to be a... I don't know. That's the IRS. But then there's the opportunity of being off-site now, the liability of the insurance if somebody gets hurt there now. It's fucking crazy, man. Who knows? Everything's a mess now. You can't give an employee anything. Good thing we don't have employees. Well, we have a few. Yeah, but they're not like employees. We keep them close, though. They're all outside. Not enough to have a picnic. It would be a weird picnic. It would be like four of us standing there, five of us standing around. Hey, how's it going? One of them is my wife. Stay in the front yard. Sarah. Just me, you, Sarah. Two researchers and Richie. Stay in the front yard. That's it. Me and Scott and Ricky while just standing around. Don't step in bed and shit. Yeah, hey, watch out for that. So anyway, they're at this picnic. Yeah. At the picnic, Terry Quinby introduces Leslie to a young lady named Catherine Johnson. Yeah. Catherine Noel Johnson. She goes by Cat. Yeah. She's 21 at the time. Yeah, just turned 21. Yeah. They start talking. They're playing softball. They're drinking beer. Everything seems normal here. Drinking beer at the Radisson Company picnic. At the Radisson Company picnic. Steak. One of those people get a DUI, and then Radisson is responsible. That's what happened. I don't see a lot of them anymore. Impossible, yeah. So she's from Guilford County, North Carolina. She's born June 1, 1969. Her parents are Bobby and Ann, and she is a graduate of High Point Central High School and was currently here a student at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. UNC, and she's employed by the Radisson as well. She works at the gift shop at the Radisson. And so gift shop at the Radisson back in the day. All right. Yeah, well, people used to buy newspapers and coffee and shit like that. Yeah. Or they had them in your room and everything on your phone. It's probably just a shitload of cigarettes there. And cigarettes. Yeah. In Northern Carolina. Cigarettes, pregnancy tests, things of that nature. Things you need right now. Yeah. So, yeah, she was employed by the Radisson, and she was a regular churchgoer. She has a brother named David. She's 21, and everybody says she's real sweet and real friendly and real full of life, as a pretty 21-year-old often is. And she's described by Terry Quinby as a sweet girl who loved animals and dreamed of being a veterinarian. Oh. Very nice. Now, her parents, Bobby and Ann, were vacationing in California, so Catherine was staying at their home in High Point and were planning to return on Monday to Chapel Hill for classes. Yeah, yeah. So around 4 p.m., several people from the picnic, after the picnic started breaking up, they said, we can't let this party stop. No. We're going out Radisson style. Let's keep it going. Yeah. And they just, they were out. Radisson's cut the funding, but we'll cut it, we'll pay for it on our own now. We will do it. Now, Quimby was a bartender, by the way, at the Radisson, which they had a bar at the Radisson too. Right. And Johnson, by the way, it's summer school going on right now and all that kind of thing. So, anyway, 4 p.m., picnic breaks up. Several people, including Leslie and Kat and Terry, everybody, they go to the Applebee's on North Main Street. Let's keep this party going. Applebee's. So, they do that. During this, Leslie talks to Terry Quinby's brother, Freddie. Freddie Quinby. Yeah. Freddie Quinby. And he says, and I quote, this is about Kat, I'm going to have her tonight. Watch, you'll see. I bet you right now that I'll have her by the end of the night. How old is he? 21. Okay. Yeah, or 22 at this point, sorry. I'm going to have her by the end of the night. And age appropriate, but still perverted and, you know. Gross phrasing, but sure. It's what every man thinks, but when you say it to a guy, when you whisper it to someone else, it becomes gross. Every man is thinking that all the time, ladies, by the way. If you wonder, what's he thinking? He's thinking, I'm going to have her tonight. Watch. You'll see. I bet you right now I'll have her by the end. That's what they're thinking. Whether they say that or not, it says a lot about their character and class. We've got to try to tamp that down in our brains, but we can't help it. Biologically, that's what happens. It's not our fault. That's why there's people walking around right now, and the earth isn't barren, is because we're like, I'm a have her tonight. So, yeah, some different level of education and classy way of phrasing it, but, yeah, that's certainly a disease. Some people say it much worse in their head, but others say it much better, but at much baseline, I'm a have her. I'm a have her tonight. That's the basic thought of a man at all times. I'm a have that. Watch. You'll see. Yeah. No, no, they don't. Now, after Applebee's, the group went to Terry's sister Robin's house. Yeah. For dinner, which they just left Applebee's. What's wrong with you? The potato skins aren't enough for you? The riblets are no good? What's your problem? We're just here for drinks only, and then we're going to go somewhere else and eat. Around 9 o'clock, they moved over to Terry's house. Yeah. And Leslie and Cat sat out on the porch together. Yeah. Ain't that nice? Yep. Everybody said they were hitting it off, Cat and Leslie. It was. They were hitting it off, and he offered her, he said, you want to go for a ride on my motorcycle? Oh, my. Which they have been drinking for 12 hours, by the way. Hop on my shadow. Hop on my Vulcan. Grab that duffel bag, would you? Grab the duffel bag. All right. Would you sling that over your shoulder? Helmet. Shit, no. Oh, I messed up your pretty hair. What you talking about? So, anyway, they get on the motorcycle. She agrees to it. Yeah. And they ride off. Now, she must have some attraction to him, I would assume. Something, yeah. If you're hanging out away from the group on the porch and you don't have to. Like, he didn't want to hurt. And I don't know. Most women don't get on a motorcycle with a guy they don't like at all. We'll put it this way. I don't know if it's attractive, but she's not afraid of him. There it is. She's not intimidated, afraid. You don't get on a guy you're afraid of's motorcycle at night and go off into the darkness alone together when all your friends are at the house that can protect you. So she's got to feel comfortable with him, so he must have made a decent impression. So when they drove away, Terry said they just went for a motorcycle ride, and he never came back. They never came back. Does she have a car there? I don't think so. I don't think. Oh, she does. She does. She has a car. Yeah. She absolutely does. That'll come up. So, anyway, Terry said they, you know, they had had some drinks, but she thought they weren't really drunk and thought, you know, Leslie was a nice guy. They must have been hitting it off. Okay. Later on, Warren comes, or Leslie Warren comes back to Quindy's house. All by himself. Just to leave his motorcycle there and get in Cat's car and drive it away. Oh. Okay. and then when Terry awakened on Monday morning Leslie was asleep on her couch that's all she knows about it Leslie told Terry that Cat had to get up early to leave for Chapel Hill and that he left her car in a motel or he left her in a motel room with a wake up call I dropped her off told them to make sure to wake her up and Terry said later on this is much later what freaks me out is I could have been next I mean they say he knew all those girls too. It's so hard to believe. He was so normal. What the fuck? Everybody says normal, average. He knows how to blend in. July 20, 1990, the police get a warrant for Velma Faye Grays for the arrest for her murder. Uh-huh. Because they know what happened here. A warrant on Leslie for that. On Leslie for that. Yeah, exactly. Thank you for clarifying. That helps a lot. Thank you. Yeah, got a warrant for Faye for her own murder. For her own murder. They said, damn, this lady is crafty, boy. I'll tell you something. We're going to walk her ass up. I'm saying, I'm like, that's not right. It's a warrant for her, not for her. So they swear out the murder and kidnapping warrants against Leslie in connection with the death. And they say, we think that the kidnapping and murder of Velma Faye Gray was a crime of opportunity. We think he saw her on the side of the road and saw that as an opportunity to do what he did. Yeah. This would be terrifying because think about this. This is somebody just on the base that he knows is alone. This is a woman that he's known for a long time and has a history with, with Jamie Hurley. This is a random lady he sees on the side of the road and picks up. There's no, like, if he sees a woman and there's an opportunity to do this, he does it. Or did he hit her car and she pulled her? That's even scarier. That he's just like, what if he's driving down the road in that truck, and his dick's just hard, and he whacks into that RX-7? If you're in an 18-wheeler, and you graze an RX-7, it's going to not be drivable. It's going to be explodable. It's going to be a fucking mess. Those are tiny cars. Very proud of the car. Yeah, from what I understand, and what witnesses said, she was alone with the car for a while before he pulled up. She grazed a guardrail or something and pulled over. It seems like she probably fell asleep. It's the middle of the night. probably fell asleep, drifted into a guardrail and said, ah, fuck, I messed my RX-7 up. Damn it, this could have been worth 35 grand 40 years for me. I'm really blowing it. Screwing everything up. So they were closing in on Leslie through phone records. They're using a trap and trace device on Tracy Warren's phone, his wife. He keeps calling his wife to check in and they trace the calls from High Point to the Spartanburg area, which is where he's calling. So they know he's in High Point. But they don't know where because he's not connected to this Terry Quinby in any way that they can figure out. July 21st, 1990 at 2.44 p.m. Okay. I guess Terry Quinby's sister called from Asheville to tell her there was a press conference about the guy that's sleeping on your couch right now, that they're looking for him, and there's a nationwide manhunt for this guy because he's a fucking murderer. And he's on your couch right now? He's on your couch. Maybe get your kids out of there. So they're like, holy shit. Now, Terry Quimby said about three minutes after she hung up, a High Point police officer called the house. Okay. And said, is Eugene Warren there? He just called and said, hey, is Eugene Warren there? Now, he uses the name Leslie, so she didn't recognize the name Eugene and just said, no, I don't know who the fuck that is. There's nobody by that name here. Bye. Hung up. A moment later, she said, oh, shit. That's his name. That's his name. But the officer said before they hung up, go to the door. Your house is surrounded. There will be a policeman at your door in a second. We were just calling ahead of time seeing if, you know, maybe we could get him to walk out. Yeah, we know he's there. We just want you to know that we're here. We see his Vulcan, you know. So she said she walked to the door with Leslie following her. And when Leslie saw the officer, she said Leslie walked outside. The officer held him at gunpoint, told him to put his hands on his head, and he did. Wow. And he said Warren was real calm, cool, and collected, did as he told. They handcuffed him and took him away. He's been here before. Yeah. He was sleeping on the couch when this happened. So he also just woke up. And she was freaked. Yeah. Terry was freaked out, as she might be. Yeah. She said, what freaks me out is that I could have been next. I mean, they say it's hard to believe. I don't understand. Yeah. She came out with that. She said, I'm still in shock. I won't think about it. I'll just put it out of my mind. It's too hard for me to believe. I will just Pollyanna the fuck out of this thing. I don't care. See that sand? Where's my head? Firmly. I'm just not going to think about it. I'm not going to think about it. Well, when I think about it, it makes my skin crawl, my stomach ache, my shit liquid. Yeah, I don't like liquid shit. Think about my kids being in the same house with a serial killer. Yeah. You know, it makes me upset. I'm not thinking about it. I've made up my mind. You know what? Forget it. So when he's arrested and searched, the police find a set of keys, which he claimed were his. Yeah. And they later discover the keys were to Kat Johnson's car. Oh, he's still got them. He likes trophies. This is bad. So they arrest him, obviously, for Velma Faye right now. But he's also being questioned by all three law enforcement agencies before being there everywhere. Now, for Velma Faye, they have a witness. A witness said that she saw him approaching a woman's, Velma Faye's wrecked car, hours before the body was found floating. She said she saw him approaching the wrecked car, but at the time she couldn't identify him from photographs, but later on she identifies him from seeing him. As a physical being. Yeah, as a physical being. He was off duty as a truck driver at the time of the murder, and the company said if he was driving an Amcan truck, it was unauthorized. He stole a fucking truck to do this. Think about that. Is it his own truck and he's got a part somewhere? No. No, it's their truck. He took their truck somewhere. He just took it. He said it's unauthorized use. So, I mean, if it was his truck, it's always authorized. What is that? He wasn't on duty. He just grabbed a truck and had it out. All right. So they announced a big pending press conference, and they said we're going to have a big press conference that deals with the murder cases that have interests in many agencies. George Jackson, who's the brother of Fay Gray, said that any time he hears news about the case, he feels anxious. He said he won't feel comfortable until someone is convicted. I like this guy, by the way. Later on, he has some good quotes. I like this guy. This is George Jackson, the brother. George said that he was told last week investigators were looking into a new lead in his sister's death. He didn't know what the lead was except that it involved Hendersonville in some way. So, anyway, he is suspected of, in addition to being arrested for Velma Fay, he is suspected of Jamie Denise Hurley's murder and also the New York murder of Pat's. Right. They don't know anything. Cat's in a motel room, for all we know, at this point. Yeah, waiting on that wake-up call. That's just still waiting on it. Now, all three deaths have been termed as sexual homicides. Right. So we know exactly what this is. This is a kidnap, rape, strangle, murder thing here. They said that Asheville police generated an important lead that prompted them to call New York State Police, but they won't divulge the information to the media at that point. They just said he was in all three places in each time of the murder. There are similarities among three murders, but we can't say anything more about that. They said he has no history of violent crime but has a juvenile record. His juvenile record, they don't realize that's where the violent crime is. Retied a lady up in the basement, held her at gunpoint, then shot her friend. And shot a guy, yeah. That's very much scary. Incredibly violent, yeah. And that's a 15-year-old. He just didn't plan that out. If he planned it out, that would have been horrible. And never did it before. So at some point, you'll learn how to do it. Absolutely. He's held it on no bond. Okay. The district court said, I would not have entertained a motion for bond because in my mind, with all the allegations, no bond is appropriate. Right. Fair. The police chief from Asheville defends letting Leslie go when he had a dead woman's purse. And he said she was dead and he rolled her into a river, but they couldn't find her body. How do you defend that? What is the principle? It kind of makes sense. He said, our system of jurisprudence says that on minor charges, a person has the right to have a bond. We did not have a body, and we did not have a murder charge at that time. You can't just hold the person because if we find something, you might be in trouble. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, it sucks. You can hold them a long time. Not that long on minor charges. No, no, I mean, before you, yeah. You'd have to hold somebody for a very long time sometimes before you find anything. If anything ever. That's why, yeah, you've got to let them go, and that's a problem here. They did say that they were cooperating with New York and the Fort Drum investigation because that's a part of everything. As they're saying, they found out he served at Fort Drum when that happened, and all that makes fucking sense. They said his mindset is such that he will kill again. This is a New York State police lieutenant who specializes in investigations of serial killers. This is Ed Grant, Lieutenant Ed Grant. He said, somebody not named Dick or Crisp, I'm kind of disappointed. Not bad. It's a good name. It's not bad. His mindset is such that he will kill again. These kind of homicides are considered to be motiveless murders. There's no apparent motive. He has a mindset that causes him to be compelled to commit this kind of sexual homicide. It's its own motivation for people. Yeah, okay, gotcha. For Green River, for Ted Bundy, for people like that. The sex is the motive. It's the power. It's the sex. It's the killing. It's the I decide when you die. It's the I decide when this happens. I decide what kind of sex we have. Yeah, the motive is the fucking crime itself. That's wild. Yeah. The motive, they get off on the sexual nature and the killing of everything. So they bring him in and they sit him down right away. This is by, they start questioning him at 9, 10 that evening. So they just, they arrested him six hours ago. Okay. They let him sit for a while. He waives his rights. Okay. And says he'll talk. He confesses to four murders. Whoa. Four. They only know about three. They're like, blah, blah, blah. Then he confesses to some more they don't know about. Six, eight, ten. Altogether, he confesses to eight murders in this session. Eight murders. Today. Okay. Right now. They're like, wow, this guy's horrible. He killed three people. And then he's like, hold on one minute. I got something better than you think. Better than you think. So he confesses to Patsy Vineyard, Velma Faye Gray, Jamie Hurley, and Kat Johnson, who they don't even know is missing. They don't even know she's dead. They don't know anything about that. So then they kept pushing him further. They said, I think there's more killings you're not telling us about. And they said, this would be a good time to come clean. And he said, I'll tell you everything I did about everything ever, basically. Oh, here we go. He says he and Patsy Vineyard he claims they were having an affair Oh really Now we don know if he claiming that they had an affair before this and it was an ongoing affair or if the affair started at this point We have no idea if that's true or not. And just based on the fact that he's a douchebag, I'm going to say probably not. And Patsy seemed to be very happy in her marriage. He said they used drugs. They went out and partied and used drugs. he said then he raped and strangled her so for some reason it's important for him for the A part of the story to be Patsy had some involvement in her own she was towing the line of fucking crazy life so then you know but then he'll say I raped and strangled he didn't say we had consensual sex he said we raped her and strangled her which is crazy please don't put that on please don't isolate that so we did Yeah. She threw her body into the Black River near Sackett's Harbor, and it floated downstream a month later. The detective said that, you know, they said that Leslie told him that he couldn't recall what he was thinking when he killed some of these people, though. He brings up someone they didn't know anything about, Mary. Yeah. All we know about her is Mary. That's her name. This is from, he said, from August 88 in Campobello, South Carolina. He said she was a Hispanic woman, and I only know her name's Mary. He said that Mary, he said, I think she was a Mexican immigrant, and he claimed to have met her in 88 during his summer of fun there when he was a prostitute in New York, and they did drugs together and had sex and did all that shit. And then he ran into her again down in the Carolinas. Down in 88, yeah. And decided he had to kill her, obviously. he said that they had sexual relations and then she just died while they were sleeping they fell asleep and she just died in her sleep no drug overdose just apnea like a motherfucker I don't know so apnea just died in her sleep the timing this guy has is terrible boy does he fuck huh he throws it down man he claimed must have been a drug overdose she was using drugs so then we had sex She must have just died. And they said, well, what the hell did you do with her? Yeah. And he said, I took her to a peach orchard in Campobello, South Carolina, and I fucking buried her. That's what I did with her. Good Lord. Police searched for her body but never found it. Never found it. We don't know her real name, and we don't know anything about it. So we don't know if that's true. Right. Seems like an odd thing to make up, but. Certainly very odd to make up. That feels like on the off chance that they found this body, I'm going to say this story. Maybe. Yeah. That could be it. Then summer of 1989, he says, there was another issue. This was a man named Ronald. Oh. He only knows him as Ronald. He said that a male hitchhiker, he picked him up on the road. He said all the time, truck drivers who pick somebody up, keep his company, were bored. And he said he killed Ronald and buried him somewhere in Tennessee, but he doesn't remember where. He said, I don't really know anything about him except that he was a hitchhiker, and his name was Ronald, and he's somewhere in Tennessee. I don't really know where it was. I don't know Tennessee that well. All right. So there's that. So they go, well, we don't know where to even look for that. It's like 500 miles wide. That could be anything. Yeah, it could be anything. Any road particular off of, anything. So Velma Faye Gray now, he said he was coming up on Whitehorse Extension Road, five miles from her house, saw her car wrecked, said, I pulled over. Do some fishing. He said that she asked for a ride to call for help, and that he said, sure, hop on in. Yeah. And so she hopped in the tractor trailer, and this was to a convenience store, which was a short distance away. So it wasn't even a long ride. Yeah. He said they got there, and he said before she could get out of the truck, I grabbed her and I choked her. And he said he later placed her body in the trunk of his car and drove to Lake Bowen in Spartanville. Uh-huh. He said he tied her hands behind her back with shoestring once he reached the lake, which is bullshit. Why would you tie a fucking corpse's hands? You tied those hands so you could rape her. That's why you tied her hands. Right. He's leaving out so much of that. He didn't say anything about rape? Nothing. He leaves that out. He leaves that out. She's getting out, and I choked her? Why? I just choked her to death and then put her in a car trunk. Then when I got to the lake, I decided to tie her hand up with bullshit. Yeah. So according to the statement, he was going to attach something heavy to the body so it would stay at the bottom of the lake. But he said, quote, couldn't find anything to wade her with. Okay. So he just said, fuck it and let her float. Okay. Interesting. Then he says, I got a couple more that you don't know anything about. He said, there's two men in Asheville, North Carolina in 1989. He said, is a drug deal gone wrong? All right. He said, I killed him. Dead. Two men. Don't know their names, don't know nothing, but they're dead up there. They said, okay. What about Jamie Hurley? Now, this confession repeatedly contradicts itself. Yeah? This one. Yeah. He must, usually there's something about this that doesn't sit right with him, that he feels like he did something wrong here, that he's not real proud of this one, you could tell. He said that they were doing cocaine together when she died of an overdose. Now, I don't know if this is because she was so nice to him before. He must get some real strong shit because everybody seems to not do well with his coke. No, they dropped dead. He's not mixing it, stepping on it very well. He's getting pure shit. And he's like, just pick that in your vein. That'll be great. Just jam it in there. You'll be all right. So Jamie's friends and family insisted she never used cocaine. Right. Never did drugs. She's a psychologist, all this type of shit. They said the evidence also clearly points to strangulation. So that's the issue there. so then he said so you buried the body he goes well I buried it but my brother Leron helped me bury the body so pardon? so there's somebody else who he brought someone else into this? that's interesting and he also admitted that the purse he had was Jamie's and that he did strangle her he eventually admitted to strangling her okay shouldn't I have a drug overdose she overdosed and then I strangled her it gets a combination of the two Really, she was so far overdosed that there was no coming back. And I figured that we'll put her out of misery. Do some that. Yeah. Then buried her in a shallow grave in the Candler area where he's from. Remember that? That's where he was born. So they drove to the remote rocky area of the National Forest, dug a shallow grave in a snake-infested terrain, covered the body with rocks and an engine part. He said he felt remorseful. so he left a marker so he could find the grave again so he could return later that is not remorse that is not remorse that's pride that's checking your traps that's fucking Fundy returned later Green River returned later the people that returned later returned later to do grocery to relive it then he brings up Kat Johnson who like I said he said after Applebee's We went to dinner at Terry's sister's house, went back to Terry's house where I was sleeping on the couch. We sat on the porch. They drove around a while on the motorcycle. By around 1130, they were doing that. About an hour later, he returned to get Catherine's car, and he told people that she couldn't drive, so they were getting a motel room at the townhouse motel. But he said, you know, she was already dead, though. Yeah, we know. They said, what happened to her? And he said, well, we went on the off for a motorcycle ride and took her to an abandoned soccer field, raped her and strangled her with her own bra. Good Lord. Gumbag. Holy shit. He then said he stuffed her body into the trunk of her own car. And it's currently parked in the downtown High Point parking garage right next to the Radisson Hotel where she works if you want to go find it. Still in there. Boy. so that's that he signed at 12.09am so this only took three hours for him to sign a written confession to eight murders so they immediately go to the parking garage here and they discover her in the trunk of her own gray Renault alliance remember those? gee the poor girl had a Renault, that's terrible in England that's a good car that's fine, in America That thing was not a good car. In parking garage downtown High Point, just like you said, the car was parked on the second floor of the parking garage, and it was right where Warren told him it would be. After opening the car and finding the body, they sent the car with the body to the state medical examiner's office, obviously to look it over for forensics. Now, she was in the trunk. She was naked, and her bra was wrapped around her neck. Wow. So pretty sure he told me he was coming. Just left her as he left her. That's it. No, doesn't give a fuck, man. When he's done with it, to him now it's garbage that I can dispose of. So his fingerprints were found outside the driver's side door, outside of the driver's side door. His right palm print was found on the outside of the trunk. Okay. And that's right. And they searched the soccer field that he said he raped her, that field. and they found her shoes near an unmown grass embankment. So he did not lie. He did not. That's when he told the truth 100% on. The autopsy revealed areas of hemorrhage indicating strangulation by pressure to the neck, which is exactly what he said. Asphyxia due to strangulation. She was decomposing. It's been a couple of days, and it's fucking June in North Carolina. and she was identified positively by dental records then they question about another murder, they're like oh you gave us some, we got one to talk to you about saying that there's a what is it, Easley is where this is what's her name here Daisy Ruth Moore Snyder of 42 years old saying that she was reported missing and her body was found December 3rd 1988 by a hunter in a wooded area near the intersections of South Carolina 130 and South Carolina 183. She was found nude with a shotgun blast in the upper right chest. That's not his style. That's not him. That's not him. Guns are, you either use guns or you don't. Some people use guns sometimes. Some people just don't use guns. He would use a gun as an intimidation tactic and then shoot a man. But that's it. Exactly. But this is, I mean, you know, think about all the serial killers. Yeah. Either they use a gun or they don't. Right. And the gun destroys what's so beautiful. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. In their mind, yeah. They can strangle, and they strangle. They think of that as like I'm preserving this. Preserving, yeah. Yeah, that I can come back later and do what I want. It's so gross. It's a crazy way to think. It's a psychological thing there, though, the way that they end it all. There's a reason why certain killers kill certain ways and some killers kill other ways. And even where they kill, as we'll talk about at the end, we have a little thing to go over. All right. This woman, her clothing was found scattered in the area, and they believe she was sexually assaulted as well. And strangled and shot there as well. Blood and semen were taken from the woman's body, and also they took Leslie's blood and semen to see what was up here. and they end up clearing him of that one. Yeah, a dog match. So they were hoping, they said, that they actually had it. They said it's a tough case, but we'll go forward with what we have, which is very little. In other words, it would have been so much better to just say, you did it. I wish it was him. Yeah. So they said that they haven't linked him with any other unsolved crimes, but since, you know, he's confessed to all this, he expects police departments are going to, quote, look this guy over pretty carefully, the police chief says. Ted Lambert with the Asheville Police Department said that Leslie had confessed to killing many more than four people, but some of the unsolved crimes he claimed have never been substantiated. By the way, they also charged Leron. Yeah, because that's not good, Leron. He is placed under a $2,000 bond with a charge of helping him hide the body. Yeah. He came with his wife and his mother to court and all that kind of thing, and charged with an accessory after the fact. Right. and saying he helped bury the body in a shallow grave. He ends up having the charges dropped in exchange for testimony against his brother. Oh, that's nice. That's why they charged him to begin with. Yeah. Now, what about the Patsy Vineyard case? Because we haven't talked about that. The prosecutor said that he was not prepared to call the case closed yet until he reviews the evidence, even though a person said that he did it and did exactly where she found it. He said, I'm not in a position to say I have a prosecutable case until I sit down with them and see if there's enough to get a warrant. Also, let's see what they're going to do with him down there and see if I need to waste the money doing this. Yeah. That is. Now, Michael Vineyard, Patsy's husband, at the time when this is all going down, he's a truck driver living in Tennessee at that point. Okay. And he said he vaguely remembered Leslie as a quiet guy because they said, did you know this guy? and he said yeah we we had met leslie had met patsy at picnics and stuff like that we all knew each other there wasn't that many guys sure he said that uh leslie saw me every day for a year and never gave me any sign of what happened he said if i knew then what i know now it would have been different yeah you probably wouldn't have had a beer with him at the picnic bro you'd probably if you knew that he'd probably kick the shit out of him that's exactly right you'd have fucking stabbed him with a barbecue fork, if you fucking knew that. He said he was stunned when New York police showed up at my door a week ago. He said, I have the greatest respect for the New York police. They stayed on the case when I thought it was hopeless. I mean, it's been three years. Right. He said he, you know, just remembers him keeping to himself. He said he was a quiet soldier, Leslie Warren, attached to a mortar platoon. He said he kept to himself. I never associated with him. We never had words, but I did think he was a troublemaker. Right. That's an understatement of the year. Jesus Christ. So they said that he had been interviewed along with everybody else, and a spokesman for the Watertown Police Department said that he was not considered a suspect in the three-year-old investigation until he admitted to it just now. Michael said, it just kind of stunned me. They stayed on the case when I thought it was hopeless. So that's interesting. Terry Quinby said, he's such a nice guy. It's just so hard for me to believe he did all this. Terry you did it ma'am good lord what does it take for you to open your god damn eyes Terry holy shit wow yeah and he said she said he was just a friend that I let him stay she said I'm still in shock I don't get it she just doesn't understand and then I introduced him to this woman she feels responsible for sure Cat would be alive if it wasn't for him staying there now that's not Terry's fault she thought she was being a nice guy helping or a nice lady helping a friend but didn't he work at the Radisson too? I mean, he knew Kat. He was going to see her. Leslie didn't work at the Radisson. Didn't he not work there? No, he just got there. He just pulled into his Vulcan with his duffel bag and stayed on the couch. He's just hanging out at the party because they're like, we're going to this picnic. You should come. Right, yeah. You know, so you don't have to sit on my couch. All our friends like you. So, remember, he's got, by the way, he has several girlfriends around the areas too, in addition to his wife and kids. One of them was Branya McCarson Owen B who dated him from June 89 to January 90. She said she was with him just hours before he killed Velma Gray. She was with him that night. She said she spent countless hours alone with him. He'd send her roses. He fixed her frozen water pipes. He brought a drawing kit for her six-year-old son. She said there were plenty of opportunities for him to hurt me, but he didn't do it. Maybe he loved me like he said he did. That's what you need to take away from all of this. He says, I hope he liked me. What are you kidding? He's a fucking murderer. Maybe he loved me. He told me he did. I think he loved me. You know what? Maybe I should have got a little more into him. Yeah. Wow. We don't know why he didn't kill her, but Ted Bundy didn't kill his girlfriend. You can't kill everybody. You can't kill everybody. Some people don't. It seems like, and I keep saying Ted Bundy because it's a very similar thing here. his thing was he'd meet some people and he would classify them as normal world people. Yeah. I'm going to associate with this. Not rapable. Yeah. Then he would see some people and he'd be like, Rape and kill Target. I can do that. Yeah. Which is fucking. Well, if you kill and if you rape and murder everybody around you, you get caught. You get caught. Well, Ted had those moods. That's why. Yeah. Right. Remember like his little brother talking about how he was with him in Utah and Ted was just like, you have to go home early, I'm taking you to the airport. And then he ended up killing people like that night. He was just so horny. He had to go. So if he didn't have the urge, you were safe. And if he had the urge, and he wasn't going to kill his girlfriend, because he knew that he'd be the first suspect in that one. So anyway, Jamie's friends here, Jamie Hurley, the counselor, her co-workers, Luan Gibson, Catherine Jenkins, they were devastated. They say, she said that I didn't understand, that Leslie was one of the students she knew and had made a difference for and she trusted him. The group said, quote, this is Luan Gibson, we identified with the Golden Girls. We used to say we'd get a house at the beach and we'd always have rock and roll and we'd never be old. We really feel robbed. Our lives have been changed forever now that we don't have her to grow old with. You people all need families too, I think. That's the other thing. You should probably grow old with your families of some kind, whoever it is. I think four single dudes in a house sounds fun when they're 65. Good God. What's it called? Prostate matter? What the fuck? That would be the worst show of all time. Four old men living in a house. Somebody would be murdered so fast. Grumpy old men. It's just colorectal exams every other week. What did you do today? Well, I've got to get the prostate looked at again. Well, I just went today. Well, I've got to go tomorrow. Me too. You need a ride? Sure do, because my prostate hurts too bad to even drive. Boy, I'll tell you what. You can't even sit down. I can't even sit right now. I'm going to lay in the back seat while you drive. So Velma Fay's family had put up a reward. Remember that? Apparently it gets claimed now because murder has been charged. And two Greenville women and a North Carolina woman each received $1,000 rewards. for providing information. The women, they said they knew about the vehicles linked. It was the witnesses that saw him in the area and all that kind of thing. Now, this brings up a jurisdictional problem because you have three different states and four different jurisdictions all saying, well, we'll get some first. Police to fuck it all up. So that's the thing. So in late 1990, high-ranking law enforcement officials from all three states met to try to make a deal on this. Yeah. And the decision is he should first be extradited to South Carolina for the Velma Gray murder and then to North Carolina for Jamie Hurley and Kat Johnson. Easiest one to solve. Well, that one, yeah, they have witnesses that linked him to her car and the truck and all that. It's very simple. And they said New York case can wait because it's the oldest and it's largely circumstantial. It's largely just him saying that he did it. Other than that, they don't have a lot of evidence on that one. So, and And if he gets the death penalty in any of these cases, there's really no need to even bother him. No need to go for it. Yeah. So that was the strategy, it seemed like, for New York State to begin with. And they're like, yes, we're done with that guy. Fuck off. Not our problem. Yay. They extradited him to South Carolina in August of 91. His defense attorneys, of course, request a psychiatric evaluation, which they complete, and they find him mentally competent to stand trial. Terrific. 93, Velma Faye Gray trial. The prosecutor says that he had no eyewitnesses to the slaying, but promised to create a full and complex jigsaw puzzle with other witnesses. Yeah. Because he was seen with her. The public defender said that some of the pieces in the state's puzzle might be missing and urged the jury to see Leslie as innocent until proven otherwise. Okay. There. Katie Manchester Parker is 24 years old. she and her three friends were driving home when they spotted gray standing near the intersection of white horse road and road extension and us 25. Yeah. She said, uh, she was crying gray and she said, quote, she kept saying, I wrecked my car. I wrecked my car. And then this woman said the group saw what appeared to be a truck driver. It stopped near the wrecked car and was walking toward gray. So she remembers her and her friends assume the driver was helping. And so they drove off. she testified the truck driver was leslie warren but they bring up that she had failed to spot him when shown a large uh group of photographs of truck drivers shortly after the slaying yeah and um she said that she's seen warren since the death on television that is true so that's kind of shaky but it was his truck and all that then a pathologist testifies that gray had bruises on her face, back, shoulders, upper arms, hands, wrists, and feet. That's horrifying. Hands, wrists, and feet. That's, oh, my God. It's the whole body. Fucked up, man. He said that an injury to her neck was consistent with throttling, strangulation, or a small concentrated blow. They said Dr. John Wren said that she died from lack of oxygen, which could have occurred under different scenarios, including drowning and strangulation. so this is a six man six woman jury here and he's found guilty of this obviously clearly what the fuck here sentencing comes around and the judge says you sir may oh wait you sir may fuck off life in prison with the possibility of parole with time credit first time served since his arrest he'd be eligible for parole in 20 years which is way too young 45 oh boy now why do you say why didn't they go for the death penalty if that's on there it was taken off the table the prosecutors hoped to seek the death penalty but the judge ruled the evidence wouldn't allow it this really pissed off George Jackson, Velma Faye's brother who said quote I consider him like a rodent I'd like to squash him he doesn't need to exist He just shouldn't live. He's a swamp rabbit. Just a swamp rabbit under your foot there. Yeah. Which any brother would feel like that. Fuck yeah. If you kill my sister, I would love to just rip your little head off and throw it in the fucking river too. He said about the whole thing about the case being over, part of its relief and part of its bitterness. The bitter part is why they threw out the death penalty. We all felt that he deserved to die. Well, it would have got thrown out in the peel anyway because it wasn't right. That's why. But we get how you feel, and it sucks. So the Gray family puts out, by the way, in the Greenville News newspaper, a quote card of thanks, it says at the top. These are nice people. These are classy people. The family of Velma Faye Gray wants to thank all of our friends' neighbors for the support they gave the children. I won't mention their names. Also for the food, flowers, cards, and especially for all the prayers and kind words of sympathy. We would also like to thank all the law enforcement people who have worked so hard for us. We thank God for helping us not to hate the one that took the life of such a sweet mother, daughter, and sister as Velma Faye was. Community came through, yeah. That's nice. 1995 is the Jamie Hurley. And they're going to have to go forward because 20 years ain't shit. That ain't shit. He pleads guilty to this one. Plead. Plead, which is shocking. Yeah. He pleads guilty to first-degree murder, too, which is wild. He gets no break on that. They said they have his confession. They have Ron's testimony about helping bury the body, the location of the grave matching his description and his brother's description. So he just pleads guilty. This was, by the way, on her birthday, on Jamie Hurley's birthday, he pleads. Interesting. Which is pretty good. They said he stood handcuffed in front of the judge, showed little emotion as he pled guilty. They told him that the judge said this is a mandatory minimum of life in prison, and you could be sentenced to death still for this, right? And he said, I got it. Also pleads guilty to stealing. Pleads guilty to larceny for the theft of a, not for the purse, for a theft of a set of rings valued at $8,000. Where the hell were they? On the hands? He stole it from somebody, who knows? He gets around this guy, you know what I mean? The judge told him he could receive the maximum of 10 years in prison for the larceny. at sentencing they said that here the defense attorneys present extensive testimony about his abusive childhood, mental health issues, psychiatric diagnoses they argued for life in prison psychiatrists said he suffered from multiple disorders that caused violent behavior, he said Warren did not totally understand what he was doing at the time of the killings and also said that he would probably rather be executed than talk about his mental illness or anything really Specifically and honestly. Yeah, that's what I mean. We just talk about fucking random murders that he made up in his mind. There's also a Dr. Bruce Welch here who says that he highlighted, again, troubled history starting in adolescence, linking it to mental health evaluations. They tried to establish mitigating factors such as impaired capacity due to psychological issues, all sorts of shit. They talk about when he was in an institution and all that kind of thing. They talk about his abuse, his beatings, and they also say he did so much cocaine. But it feels like he is so much. He knows that what he did is so scummy and that he feels he's embarrassed by it and he doesn't want to say it. So he's got to qualify it in a tone of like they were bad pieces of shit like me. And not that they deserved it, but, you know, they died. And I was just trying to give him a respectable barrier. Like they say when a crooked cop gets killed, you get dirty. That's what he's trying to say. No, not how it works. That's not what it was. They're saying, oh, and also he did so much coke that he really didn't know what he was doing because he was out of his mind with coke craziness. And, you know, they said he's a person who's detached from his emotions and appears cool and aloof. They said that he's a heavy cocaine user, smoked marijuana, and drank alcohol around the time he killed Hurley. She said he was taking enough cocaine on his own account that he would be an overdose to the average person. But to request, they said, who told you he did that much coke? And they go, well, he did. That's at the pages to him. So what are you going to do? Yeah, they said that's bullshit. It's all self-reported and everything like that. Yeah, they go all the way back to threatening letters of rape back in the day, theft, vandalism, all this type of shit. By the way, part of his broader defense was that he's only 22, and he's very smart. They say his IQ is around 120, which is smart. That's pretty good, yeah. Ted Bundy was like 124 or something, so that's in the area of, that's above average. We'll say that, Mike. That's above average. He's a military service, work history. He's been abused. Come on, everybody. They even bring in his first and second grade teachers to talk about mom coming in to talk about the abuse in the home. It's a lot. Wow. The judge says, you, sir, may fuck off death. Death penalty in South Carolina or North? North. That is North Carolina. No, no, that's South Carolina. That's the one on the side of the road. That's Velma Fay. 1996 North Carolina Cat Johnson trial we're going to keep going? we're going to keep going absolutely let's get another one on him alright they try to say that he was too intoxicated to form the intent required for first degree murder I mean he killed a woman put her in a trunk and told a man she's going to be I mean there's plenty of there's a lot plenty there right? but he was so messed up but the problem I don't know why you would plead guilty to the other one but not really guilty to this one. You admitted to it and told them where the body was in the trunk in the car and she's naked with a bra. I mean, you're toast, man. Your confession lines up perfectly. And you put her in a trunk and the shoes are back at the soccer field, therefore being you knew that it was wrong. Oh, yeah. You knew. You had to put her in a trunk. You didn't just leave her out there and went, I did that. Steve did a good job, right? Right. Rape her and killed her good. He tried to cover it up. So the verdict comes in, 25 minutes of deliberation. That's quick. I don't even know how you fill the form out that fast. Never heard of any of them faster than 25 minutes. They always say for a murder trial, it takes like 45 minutes just to fill the form out. So I don't know. They must have got to cut it. I got this. I've done this before. Don't worry. So they find him guilty of first-degree murder, premeditated, deliberated first-degree murder. In the sentencing phase here, the victim's family spoke. Ann Johnson, Catherine's mother, said not only has her future been taken away, Never again will she fill an empty place at the table. Never again will the phone ring and I hear, hi, Mom, I love you. Now, all of this is ended by someone she only knew for a few hours, did not fight, did not hate. This isn't an enemy of hers. This is just some stranger, some asshole. Her best friend said, there's no more celebrations. We should have been celebrating our weddings, graduations, and the birth of our children. You have taken the most precious thing. You took her life. And the judge says, well, you, sir. May. Fuck off. Death penalty again. He got two. Fuck you, yeah. He's collecting them. Stack them up. Yep. He's almost working on a full house at this point. So the prosecutor said, the swiftness of the jury's verdict and then recommendation shows what they thought of the horribleness of the murders. If there ever was a case where the death penalty was appropriate, this was it. Yeah. So he's got to serve 20 years and then the death penalty? Yeah, well, he's got the 20, and then he's up for parole, but none of that matters because he's got two death sentences. So the New York prosecutors announced they would not pursue charges at this point. Nah, we'll hang back. You know, you guys seem to have got that. They said, well, he remained the prime suspect in the murder of Vineyard. He would not be tried due to his death sentence in North Carolina, the New York Deputy District Attorney said. He appeals this on several issues. In 1998, he appeals the North Carolina death penalty. Really? saying that his confession should have been suppressed because he had asked for a lawyer in an earlier interrogation. Very quickly, I'll go through this. He's arrested at 2.44 p.m. by High Point Police, taken to the police station until Asheville police arrived around 6.30. An officer of the Asheville Police Department took him back to Asheville. Although they had asked the Asheville police to notify the lawyer when they arrived in Asheville, he was never contacted which by the way again like i remember in the homicide book they were saying even when you ask for a lawyer when the lawyer gets there or not you ask for a lawyer if a lawyer shows up for you let's say your mom got you a lawyer and they show up unless you ask for that lawyer they're not letting him in they don't have to tell you he's out there yeah he could be out there going i want to see my client and they're like no he didn't ask for you yeah that's how They do it a lot of times. So it's anyway. They said that they never were contacted when he was interviewed at 9, 10 p.m. after he was advised of his rights without ever invoking the Fifth Amendment to have his counsel present. The detective questioned him about everything, and he started talking shit about murders and all this type of shit, and then signed a statement. How is that bad, basically? He said at one point that he was given Miranda warnings when they talked to him again a couple days later. He was given Miranda warnings and waived his rights. During the interview, someone poked his head in the door and closed the door when he made an arm motion at him saying, go on and leave us alone. So he didn't want anybody else in the room. He said, then he pointed and he said, my lawyer, and continued talking. So Warren's lawyer was there, tried to come in the room. He said, fuck off. and said that was my lawyer and they kept talking. Okay. And he was identified as his lawyer. They say no. They argued also that the prosecutor's closing arguments were improper, including calling him a coward who only attacked women. And he said that sounds totally, yes, you are an adjudicated coward. It's definitely supported by the evidence, but don't say that tonight. Yeah. 2009 makes maybe the strangest appeal of all time. What's that? North Carolina passed the Racial Justice Act, which allows death row inmates to argue their sentences were influenced by racial bias in the criminal justice system. Warren, who is white as fuck, and all the women he killed are white as fuck, filed a petition for this. Why? That's the point. It was just another one he could file because everything else failed. This makes no sense. Just a fight, yeah. Whatsoever. So it's denied, and they're like, that's ridiculous. A local newspaper said, quote, Leslie Warren shouldn't be let off death row unless everyone is. He should be the last guy we let out of death row. He's a bad guy. Yeah. Bad guy. Also, they talk about these serial hunting grounds, serial killer hunting grounds. Criminologist Michael Newton compiled the stories of 544 serial killers in 1990s hunting humans, an encyclopedia of modern serial killers. Yeah. He said, most are territorial. They stalk a specific area, like a neighborhood city, set of highways. Think High Five Killer, Ted Bundy, Green River, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wengacy, all these guys, anyone you can think of. He said one-third are nomadic, meaning transients who wander around the country, killing them, just popping them, and a few are stationary, killing only in one place, like a nursing home, a hospital, somewhere like that. They said that a lot of these would be considered different things. They considered Warren to be nomadic. Yeah, because he's got areas that he feels familiar with, but he moves so much that then he gets familiar with that area, and then he does some shit there. Wherever he is. Now, there is a book written about this. Wensley Clarkson wrote a book called Romeo Killer in 2004, which details all of this. And they say, one day at 12.01 a.m. in the not-too-distant future, Leslie Warren will be taken from his holding cell in the death house at the state penitentiary. And they talk about killing him. They cover his trials but focus more on the biography than shit like that, they say. 2014, an investigation discovery show called Baby-Faced Killer is going to air. Oh. That's his nickname. Does he look at him? He's 22 when he has a round kind of chubby face. He does. He looks like a teenager when he's arrested. Part of the network's Handsome Devils series. Jesus. Why would you do that? What the fuck? that'll feature Leslie Eugene Warren who's charged in the murders it's a one hour documentary according to the network's promotional materials Handsome Devils focuses on literal lady killers men whose natural charm belies their intent to harm exactly women can't help but fall for the baby faced good looks of Leslie Warren but the young man from North Carolina is not at all what he seems his innocent charm masks his clever disguise of a murderous mind All right. High Point Police Officer Jeff Pate, who was involved in his arrest, when interviewed for this, he's like, I don't see why they say that. He said, to say he was handsome or women found him attractive, I don't know that I would have made that description of him. And charming? He was intoxicated the first time I met him, and the second time he just appeared to be friendly. I don't know that I'd call him charming, but he also didn't have horns on his head, and his head wasn't spinning around. He just seemed like a regular person. He's not that hot. If you're not a monster with snarling teeth, then you're a handsome devil, apparently. There's no in-between here. So on death row, he remains on death row, Central Prison in Raleigh, North Carolina. As of 2026, there's been no executions in North Carolina since 2006 due to legal challenges. And there's a lot going on there if you want to check that out. So there you go, everybody. that is Traveler's Rest, South Carolina and a whole lot of shit and the baby face. My God. I don't think he killed any of the guys. I really don't. I don't think so either. I think he killed them. He just wanted something. Maybe so he didn't seem like a misogynist. I kill guys too, you know. I think it makes him look like a pussy. You know what I mean? Like a giant coward piece of shit if he's only killing and raping women. Totally. Shut up and GiveMeMurder.com is where you go for all your tickets to live shows. February 21st, Nashville is where we start out. March 6th, March 7th, Durham in Atlanta. Get your tickets right now. And also your stupid opinions on March 21st in Phoenix. And then there's stuff for the rest of the year. Get on there. Shut up and give me murder.com. Listen to our other shows, Crime in Sports. Which you don't have to like sports. You have to like us making fun of someone and their fall from grace. 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