CinemaCon and the Year Ahead in Movies; The Current State of Theatrical Horror; & Special Guest John Early

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Welcome to Screen Talk, where we keep you up to date with the latest goings on in Hollywood. This is Ryan Lattanzio in New York. Anne is out this week. She's going to be back next week as we prepare for the Cannes Film Festival. So for today's episode, we've got a few special guests, starting with Indiewire senior business reporter Brian Welk, who's going to share his thoughts from Cinemacon, which was last week. And we're going to check in on the current state of theatrical horror with our features writer Allison Foreman, who's here to talk about Lee Cronin's the Mummy, which opened last week. Finally, we're going to have multi hyphenate John early on the podcast, the actor, writer, director behind Maddie's Secret, which is coming out for Magnolia Pictures this summer and was just premiered at the new Director's New Films festival. He's also currently off Broadway in New York on the Andre Gregory directed Wallace Shawn written play, what we did before our moth days. So first up, we've got Brian, who last week was at the Cinemacon convention in Las Vegas and has a sense of everything that's going on with the upcoming studio slates. Welcome to ScreenTalk.

0:35

Thank you so much for having me.

1:39

Yes, my pleasure. And glad to have you back from Vegas. I obviously was not there, but I watched your coverage from afar. Tell us about some of the highlights of the standout footage that you saw, especially from things that we haven't seen any trailers for, such as, you know, I'm looking forward to Werewolf, the Robert Eggers movie. There's also Aaron Sorkin, social reckoning, and iniri2's digger.

1:40

I'm gonna start with Digger because I think that one just was the most jarring and most really eye popping because this is the first movie in a while where Tom Cruise is not playing Tom Cruise. It's, it's just really jarring to see him in the footage we saw, which was, you know, him with the gray Hair, lots of wrinkles, big kind of paunch belly. And he's just very, just over the top, but thick accent. But he's intense and very focused. So we, we saw like kind of the opening sort of clip from the film and, and then we also saw kind of an extended trailer and everything just looks very exaggerated, very big personalities. It looks very satirical. It looks like it's got a lot of, you know, kind of politics or, or different sort of reference points. He's playing like an oil man, an oil billionaire oil tycoon whose latest job has basically, you know, started to create like a cataclysmic global event. And he's talking with the president, played by John Goodman, who's trying to get him to figure this out and solve this problem. It looked wild in you two. I'm not always the biggest fan. You know, he's had some hits and misses, but, you know, he definitely takes huge, big swings. And I'm very interested to see more of what Cruz does with this character. Someone compared it to Mickey17 that I talked to and for better or worse, that might be, you know, not the best comp or whatever. But you know, it's another example of like an autour that Warner Brothers is working with, you know, in English, taking kind of this big swing on the genre twist. So I, I think there's, there's a lot of potential here. I'm very curious to see more.

2:02

Yeah, but A comparison in Mickey 17 doesn't necessarily bode well. Not that I, I actually liked that movie, but it obviously did pretty badly last year for Warners. So then what about the Social Reckoning? This is Aaron Sorkin sequel to Social Network that has no involvement from David Fincher.

3:58

Yes. And, and the number of times that I heard from, from Sony reminding me that it's not a sequel, but it's a follow up or a companion piece or whatever buzzword you want to use in place of that. But this is the next Facebook movie from Sorkin and I think the headline here is Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg, which is a very different look than what Jesse Eisenberg was doing. A very different sort of performance, but it's still very much the Mark Zuckerberg we've come to know. He's got this very clipped sort of speech patterns and that I could tell Strong has really been meticulous about this and how this is going to look. And we saw him kind of in these scenes where he's prepping for speaking in front of Congress or speaking in front of other Press conference, and he's being grilled by someone played by Bill Burr. And then there's also a lot of other stuff with Jeremy Allen White, who's playing a reporter, and then Mikey Madison, who's the whistleblower in the film. So I don't know if it has that same Fincher coldness and style that it has, but this definitely looks like it. I think it's going to turn a lot of heads. Jeremy Strong of it all really, really caught my eye, and I think will, yeah, make. Make a lot of people excited once that trailer finally drops. And then finally, Werewolf you mentioned. I mean, that one. This was a shorter tease, and I wish I could say too much more about it, but very similar in tone and in kind of look to Nosferatu. Extremely dark, extremely gothic.

4:15

The.

6:00

The classical.

6:00

Literally dark, you mean?

6:01

Yeah, yes, the classical aspect ratio. You got things that are, you know, black and white and some moments and then color and others, and it's very atmospheric, very art house. Some kind of creepy body horror stuff where he's, you know, bulging out from his back, turning into the werewolf. All good things. But, yeah, very short tease from. From this. There was. He wasn't on hand or whatever to talk about the film or anything like that. Didn't get as much. But I. I think, you know, it's opening, like, the same day as. As Nosferatu. I think they're doing the same model, the same release schedule, so it will definitely appeal to that crowd if you like that film.

6:02

It only wrapped filming not very long ago, so I'm sure he's still deep in the edit on that film. Switching gears over to franchise IP material, we have Dune Part 3 from Warners, and we have Disney's Avengers Doomsday, the return of the Avengers, the return of Robert Downey Jr. The return of me trying to figure out if I'm going to see this one or not. But they're both opening on the same day, December 18th, and they're giving the IMAX theaters to Dune Part 3. But then Disney has come up with something called Infinity Vision. What the hell is that? And what is the plan for the fact that these two movies are opening the same day around the holidays? Is one of them gonna move?

6:43

I do not think one is gonna move. I think if one was gonna move, we would have seen it already. But the Infinity Vision thing that they announced, literally before they showed the trailer seemed like a weird bit of corporate branding that I didn't fully understand until later when it kind of dawned on me. Oh, yeah. They don't have IMAX screens that, that, you know, Dune shot in imax. So they get the privilege and that's going to be a big deal. I mean, it's not going to hurt the box office significantly by any stretch. This is still an Avengers movie, but it is a little weird that, you know, you don't have a movie like that in imax, so it'll be in all these other PLF screens. But this is Disney's way of kind of putting their stamp on it and trying to put their own branding on saying, hey, this stuff is meets our standards for picture and sound quality and maybe it's something that they would use down the road for other things. Say, hey, you're seeing this in Infinity Vision. You're seeing this in the best quality thing. And I think it would be a stretch to presume that theaters are going to adopt this and make it a big thing or that other audience members will know, hey, I'm not seeing this unless it's going to be an Infinity Vision. That someone will figure that out. They know what IMAX means, they know what IMAX looks like and that's a brand they care about. Will they care about Infinity Vision in the same way? I'm not so sure. But this is kind of their answer to, well, we don't have imacs, but we are thinking about these premium formats.

7:22

Are we looking at a Barbenheimer situation here? I mean, these are obviously they're both going to be three hour movies. There's no way around it. So that's a very long day at the movies.

9:08

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if they're going to have the same kind of kismet, meme worthy reactions that, you know, that Barb and Heimer got. You know, but it's, these are two big tent poles, you know, with very similar audiences and, and fan bases. So I, I think it's just a matter of does one slightly take away from the upside of the other, at least in that opening weekend? And, and yeah, maybe not having IMAX will, will drag Avengers down just a little bit, but Disney is certainly thinking about that. And yeah, I do think they'll probably both stick to their dates at this point.

9:17

Perhaps we can call it Avengers dunesday. I literally just thought of that. So we did it. There it is.

9:59

Obviously though, I know you're so excited about the Avengers trailer and all the details that were in it. But you know, they showed it twice at CinemaCon and it definitely got the fanboys really stoked, really Excited. It's all the things that people are going to want from this sort of mashup franchise with all these new characters. And I think it's going to do very, very well.

10:05

But yeah, it's been a respite to have that marvel out of the cultural conversation, out of the collective imagination. But those days are soon done and I will have to adjust. So obviously we are looking at Paramount absorbing Warner Brothers unless a few thousand Hollywood signatories have anything to do about it. And so obviously this must have been weighing over the event. What was the sentiment about that there, Is there anything that you learned about the merger? I mean, for one thing, you have David Ellison promising saying, you have my word about this, about fealty to Windows, about 30 movies a year.

10:29

Yeah, he wanted to say I'm, I want to look you in the eye and, and let you know that this, we're going to do this 30 movies a year. And he also mentioned Windows. He said, we're committing to a 45 day P window and 90 days for SVOD. But I, I'll back up and to your bigger question about just what the vibe was. I mean, it's very clear, Cinema United that hosts this was very clear about their intentions that they're still opposing this. They're trying to block it. And if they can't block it, they want assurances in writing about those number of films. They don't want David Ellison saying, hey, we're going to give you 30 movies in the next year or two and then, you know, drastically scaling that back in the very near future. I mean, they can say that because right now they have so many movies in the pipeline. Both Warner Brothers and Paramount, they both kind of boasted about how many new movies they have this year compared to last year and the year before that. They've really grown in their output. And so I think there's a real sense that, you know, they, they want to be more assured and it's going to be tricky for them to, to get that. But at the same time, there were a lot of people I talked to who were like, you know, I think we're just ready to move on if this is going to be the new normal, why are we opposing this and doing this? And I think David Ellison was received warmly on stage when he was there and there was some good optimism about a few of the Paramount titles that were there. There's a Brad Pitt David Ayer film that looks like, you know, got a lot of excitement and you know, and Warner Brothers Slate looked very strong and they had a huge list full of projects that they also called a promise that they don't want to see these movies go away and disappear. So this is their way of trying to get ahead of it a little bit and, and make sure that, you know, hey, Paramount keeps some of these around.

11:09

Well, Warner's had some positive news, which was some details about the specialty label that it announced not long before Sundance didn't acquire anything there. But first of all, we have a name and then we have a flagship project, right?

13:24

Yes, it is called Clockwork. And their first movie is the new film from Sean Baker. And it is called Tiamo. And that is all they told us about it, other than that we know that he's writing, directing, editing, casting, producing. He. They're letting him do everything. And what we did know is that the, the people who are behind Clockwork are some of the same former Neon executives who worked with him on Anora. And what they want to do is, quote, socially relevant, provocative and culturally relevant cinema, resident cinema, and know that, take that, what that means at face value. You know, who knows if that means anything? But this is definitely a specialized label and they made a big point of leaving off the presentation kind of with this new label and, and making a distinction about this. So it is something they clearly believe in. And, and there was a report in Variety just last night that they gave him quite a big payday to, to lure him in. I guess that's what happens when you win four Oscars. So, you know, you get a payday then it's. It's one of those things that, like, I think, you know, you look at how much money did we give Paul Thomas Anderson for, for one battle after another. He's never had a movie that has done anything close to that. And there was a lot of hand wringing about that. And you could say the same thing about Sean Baker that, you know, hey, you know, his movies are very, very small. And know, does he really deserve this massive payday when the box office hasn't necessarily been there for, for his movies? And, you know, Warner Brothers at least, and, and Mike and Pam, they have now proven that they have that track record to be able to take that big swing and, and make it a commercial title, whatever it ends up being. And we'll see. You know, there's a lot to, to speculate on and probably a lot more, you know, that we won't know. I think they didn't give a specific release date as far as I recall, but they, they did say it would be in, in 2027. So that's also very promising.

13:36

Well, if anyone can do it, it's Mike and Pam, so. And we are definitely fans of Sean Baker, so I'm very excited to see what he will achieve on a, on a much bigger canvas. And on that note, Brian, thank you so much for coming on and catching us up on CinemaCon.

15:51

Thank you so much, Ryan.

16:06

Next up on Screen Talk, we are welcoming IndieWire's features writer Alison Foreman and who is also Andy Weir's genre movie maven. And the great thing about having her on is that we are here to discuss the movie Lee Cronin's the Mummy, which I'm not saying Anne wouldn't see this movie, but I don't know that she would prioritize it. And I don't know if I would prioritize it for, for her.

16:10

I'm, I'm saying Ann shouldn't see this movie. And I think that's, I think that's for her well being as well as the films.

16:31

Yeah, I think you are exactly right about that. First of all, welcome to the podcast, Allie.

16:39

Thank you. Thank you. I'm honored to be here. Big day to be on.

16:43

And the reason that I even saw the movie at all was on your recommendation because you said it was great.

16:46

You know, it's one of those things where sometimes I think you can feel so confident that something was for you that that really starts to let your mouth run away with you a little bit. I'm not sure that I totally stand by all of my recommendations, but I stand by that I loved it. I understand why it's very much splitting audiences, but what did you think overall? I know our chief film critic, David Ehrlich, hated it. I think he called it cruel and derivative, which, you know, fair enough. But what did you think?

16:51

I'm not saying it's not those things. It's certainly, certainly aspects of it are cruel and derivative. But I had a better time than he did. I will say that I couldn't, but somewhat feeling like this movie could have been called Lee Cronin's the Exorcist remake because you have a small child with sort of leprous lesion of skin who is projectile vomiting and retching, she's crawling upside down on gabled ceilings and she's commanding her sibling or whatever to call her teacher the C word. Some of that stuff was very familiar. But I did, I was pretty into this supernatural detective story that's set in Cairo. That's where she's played by the Detectives played by May Calamawi. And this is kind of going into this demonology aspect that becomes the mythology of this story. And I think this is the aspect of the movie that you were really into as well, other than, of course, the gross out horror.

17:22

Right. I mean, I love things that are disgusting, so that's, number one, love something to be disgusting. But I do think there was a lot of it that I liked because it seemed like a more surprising reinvention of the mummy trope in a way that was very the Exorcist. I mean, right up to the opening, right? Like, when I did that interview with Lee Cronin, he was talking about how proud he was of having the opening in Arabic. And for me, I was like, sure. But it was also very indicative of a lineage of kind of demonology rooted in ancient Egypt that's been really interesting but really well explored on screen. I liked more that he was combining it with some of the Catholic demonology of transplanting it to Albuquerque. I liked the idea of transporting the whole story into more of a haunted house architecture. But I also have started to question a little bit because I did really like the movie. I did have a lot of fun. It's definitely longer than it needs to be. And I almost question if I was so pleasantly surprised after early rumors that the movie was bad, that it was a little bit more. Like, I was comparatively relieved. Like, I want to see it again because I'm not really sure how I feel about my own perspective on it. But I also want a lot of fun. I mean, I won't use nail clippers the same way, you know,

18:09

or think of formaldehyde the same way, maybe, or dentures or any of those things. Well, I mean, there was some bad word of mouth that came out of supposedly out of test screenings, but it turned out to be a bit of hearsay. And as you spoke to Lee Cronin, you got a little information about what really happened there.

19:24

I was surprised he was as frank about it as he was. But there were early reports that because, you know, a code name for the film had come out that had then been changed. There were rumors that the movie was somehow in trouble because its title was changing, which seems like it wasn't true. And then shortly after that, there was a test screening where supposedly producer James Wan had to walk out to go to the bathroom, per Lee Cronin. And, you know, that became some idea that he'd like, stormed out of the screening and been like, oh, it's a loss, or whatever. So I think that kind of misinformation can make you really root for a film. And I think it did make me feel like Lee Cronin's the Mummy was kind of an underdog release. And I also feel, I feel a lot of empathy for anybody who's being propped up as a brand for something as big as Blumhouse by name. Like the meme of Lee Cronin's the Mummy being a thing that really came out. I had a lot of empathy for that. I think this has been a tough press cycle and I think, I don't know, I just had a good time. Like, I think that's, you know what I mean? At the end of it, I'm like. Compared to what I was worried about, it wasn't a slog.

19:41

No, I agree with you. And I think it succeeds at what it's trying to do. I also agree that 133 minutes for a horror movie like this is unforgivable. I mean, I'm thinking about, I think it was a year or two, two years ago, the first Omen was around this kind of length as well. But that was sort of a different kind of movie. And I think it's maybe harder to sustain something this gross for that long, but, you know, it actually did fairly well. So this movie, over the opening weekend, it grossed 13 million domestic and actually 20 million worldwide. So, you know, it's. Collectively we're looking at 35 million, probably more since, you know, we, we collected the numbers on Sunday. But would you rank this as a success for an R rated horror movie and for a Blumhouse movie?

20:47

I mean, I think, yeah, by Blumhouse math, it's definitely a success. It's not a blowout success. It's what it needed to be. And I think that's probably about five when you look at what happened with it critically. I mean, you look on Rotten Tomatoes I think right now, and it's still doing pretty rough with critics, but I think it's got like a 75% among audiences. And I do think in terms of this having mass appeal and actually drawing people in, I think it definitely achieved what it needed to achieve. The question to me is more when they're not setting up something like this as the start of a franchise, what's next for the Blumhouse brand overall, in terms of creating, creating a sense of reliability with them? Because I think we saw a lot of ups and downs last year with Megan 2.0 and a lot of questions about sort of what really is the compelling core of the Five Nights at Freddy's franchise. So they're making a lot of swings that I think have kind of been dicey, but I feel like this one was a solid hit for them. And I think it was definitely a good showing for Lee Cronin. I mean, he was able to get people out there, and I think people really did associate him with Evil Dead Rise, and I think they're getting a much better understanding of who he is as a filmmaker. Although I acknowledge that, again, that stylistically, some people feel like he's not jumping out of that kind of Blumhouse malaise. And I definitely see that perspective, but I don't share it.

21:31

Yeah, I mean, it certainly has that malaise sheen to it, doesn't that some of these Blumhouse movies do that. There's a certain gravitas to it that maybe some people feel like makes it less fun or something. I don't know.

22:51

Well, it's. It's. Yeah, it's a weird thing because I think we've done a lot of zany goosebumps concepts, but they've also been, you know, they've been plagued by a color grading trend that they really lead into for a couple years that I don't think has been consistently true in their films over the last couple years. But I think there was a time when sort of the look of a Blumhouse film became synonymous with a bad thing. And that is still something that I think they're fighting a little bit. And you're always going to have individual auteurs kind of trying to punch past that, at least for right now.

23:03

What I appreciate about this movie is that it did use what is a public domain material now, basically to situate an entirely new story that isn't resembling the canonical storytelling we've come to know at this point from mummy movies, even something jauntier, like the Brendan Fraser movies. Those are very recognizably classical kind of mummy stories. And, I mean, we don't have. And in this movie, you don't have someone who's covered in bandages walking around. It's very. Like I said, it's very Linda Blair esque. Right?

23:35

Yeah. No, they did a good job steering away from the Hanna Barbera Scooby Doo of it all. We were mercifully allowed to skip the stiff elbows and the groaning for the most part.

24:05

You also, earlier this year, you put together a kind of quarterly report of what the first few months of horror are looking like in 2026. How do you feel like the health of genre movies is looking overall right now compared to, I don't know, say the same, same time last year.

24:17

We've been having a pretty frank reckoning with super saturation over the last two years. I think there's been a lot of push in genre after all of the success pre Covid of us having this major renaissance for the art form of everybody feeling like it's being taken so much more seriously. But horror also works from a box office perspective because it's cheap and because it's supposed to kind of be shocking and draw people in. And I think, yeah, we're getting a lot of it. I think there's been so much that's getting released straight on streaming. There's been so much that's been hitting theaters consistently that it's been a fine year for the genre. It's just not the same safe bet that it would have been maybe two or three years ago. If you were telling me that you were going to create a new label right now for an indie film studio and you wanted to create a sense of perspective on genre, I would tell you to diversify outside of horror because I think there's a lot more interesting stuff happening in stoner comedies and even in like the family adventure space. Like we're seeing more and more Gen Z audiences go to movie theaters not to see R rated releases. They're going to see family friendly films and that's an interesting kind of pivot. So I think, you know, genre filmmaking is anything that's hyper stylized. It doesn't have to just be fear. But again, like, it's not been a bad time. It's just that we're sort of keeping an eye on it. And that being said, I was also pleasantly surprised with how much I liked so much that came out in Q1. I thought Sam Raimi killed it with with send help. I thought that was a really, really pleasant endorsement of him as a filmmaker, that he continues to have a really strong perspective. And honestly, it's not just the Evil Dead association. Probably a good sign for somebody like Lee Cronin, because Sam Raimi has consistently delivered on that same type of cat and mouse sort of slasher tension that is really rooted in horror comedy, which is a lot of what the Mummy was doing. And so there is a really big audience for that. You know, Scent Help did really well. So I think it's just a matter of kind of seeing where the rest of the year takes us. But overall it's been kind of, you know, we're treading water, but not in A bad way.

24:32

So what are some of the horror movies that you feel like we should keep an eye out for the rest of the spring and into the early summer?

26:39

Ooh, okay. Well, it's been an interesting start to the year in terms of a lot of things delivering in terms of quality, but not necessarily breaking out with everything on the financial side that we expected. I think a lot about what's going to happen with 28 years later, though, that's not coming out this summer at all. My number one thing that I'm most excited to see is probably Neon's hokum from Damian McCarthy. He's an incredibly talented Irish filmmaker. We're continuing to see a remarkable amount of success out of Ireland as sort of this incredible epicenter for craft, among other things, both in production design, costume design. A lot of great puppeteers in Ireland. I'm always saying this. So really exciting. Again, we're really repping with him and Linkrona. We're really repping the Irish filmmakers today.

26:45

I've got to see Obsession, which is Focus, picked that up out of Toronto last year. I really know nothing about that one, other than I hear that how they got an R rating is hard to fathom. So that's very intriguing. And then the one that I've talked about on the podcast a lot is Leviticus, which Neon will release on June 19th. That one I can't recommend highly enough.

27:31

I'm very excited about Obsession in particular because I do feel anything that sort of comes out of the Midnight Madness section at tiff. I'm always pretty fond of Shout Out Peter Kaplowski, who is, you know, continues to be a real. A real g. Real tastemaker. But I've also just really liked all of the marketing around Obsession. I feel like it's been really interesting to play with. I love wish fulfillment horror. I really love anything that kind of has that monkey paw feeling of you got exactly what you asked for, but it was not what you actually wanted. And I know there's something about that, that this. It's especially spooky in the era of kind of like algorithmic thinking. You know what I mean? Like, we live in a time now where whole tech companies are being shaped off of the concept of vibe coding that, like, you can just describe something that you want and Google will be like, yeah, I'll just tell the computer to do it and it'll do it exactly the way I asked. And it's like, as a horror fan, I'm like, exactly the way you asked. So I'm very I'm very excited about Obsession. I feel like Curry Barker is really, really cool and he's also, you know, got that YouTube past. I'm so fascinated by so many of these filmmakers coming up out of YouTube and the reality of how that's shaping indie film, particularly for horror, because horror's cheap and it's an easy thing to give that DIY sheen. So for him to have that cool background and then to get this really big cinematic moment is really exciting.

27:53

Well, on that note, thank you Ali, for coming on the podcast tonight.

29:19

Thank you so much, Ryan.

29:22

Finally, on today's episode, I spoke to comedian multifaceted hyphen at John early last week on the heels of his feature directing debut Maddie's Secret, which premiered at MoMA at Film and Lincoln Center's new Director's New Films Festival. He writes, directs and stars in the film as a food stylist and influencer who is revealed to have an eating disorder which turns out to be a soul shattering combination in this hilarious and heartfelt movie where he plays the title character who is a woman, and he plays his character straight rather than in some sort of drag or as a campy performance. This movie is out from Magnolia Pictures theatrically in June. You may know John early already from his collaborations with Kate Berlant, roles in the film Stress Positions and Eternity most recently and on the series the After Party and my personal favorite Search Party. But he's also on stage right now in the play what We Did Before Our Moth Days from the powerhouse duo Behind My Dinner with Andre, Andre Gregory and Wallace Sean. Hey John, thanks for being here. I thought I'd start by asking about, about why you're in New York, which is not just for new directors, new films, but you are also in this play called what We Did Before Our Moth Days from Wallace Shawn and Andre Gregory. I saw this play in preview, so that was like almost a month and a half ago. So it's probably changed a bit, wouldn't you say, since then? Like how does the over that as you're coming out of previews and then you're in the actual run, like what, what happens to the performance?

29:26

Well, it's, it's akin to the kind of sphincter opening and releasing. It's, it's, it's really magical actually. I mean I, I'm sorry to start with the joke because it is actually a sacred experience. The play is very sacred to me. But you know Andre Gregory, like specifically when he works with Wally. Their, their process is the, the key ingredient is time like, there's like, it really is. It's very like, they don't really intervene. They just kind of let the play happen. They let the process, like unfold very naturally. There's not a lot of discussion. You just do the play. And we rehearsed for like a year and a half, and that has not stopped as we've done the play. Like, in fact, it's just gotten deeper. We never fully froze anything. The goal was never to freeze it, though. The goal was always to like, just kind of show up every day and like say the sacred text and see what kind of emerges every time. And so I, I think you should come back because it really is amazing how much the performances have like, deepened and like, become more layered and their whole thing is slow cooking.

30:51

You know, I looked at the script and it's really just monologues. And then you and Maria Dizia, Josh Hamilton, Hope Davis, trio of world class actors. The four of you are just on stage in chairs.

32:08

Yeah.

32:22

So how do you build a character out of that?

32:23

What was so cool about this process was like, they're really. I really mean it when I say there's almost no discussion. Like, you just show up, you just come to rehearsal and we have like a lovely little conversation about our days and then. And what we ate, and then we just, we just start the play. And like. And over the course of a year and a half, certain behaviors start to emerge and certain kind of characters start to emerge, but never through any sort of blunt force. I mean, Wallacean's writing is so distinct. There is such a distinct kind of cadence and there's such a literary quality. There's a kind of deceptive clarity or simplicity to it, but it's actually very profound and complex. But it's so his voice, you know, And I think the way the characters are truly created is that we have our own personalities. Me, Hope, Josh, Maria, we have our own life experiences, our own personalities, our own ways that we talk. Saying Wallace Shawn's text, which is not the way that we talk naturally in our real lives. It, like, shapes you, you know, it like having to. When you have to naturalize someone else's very distinct way of speaking and make it sound like you, a character comes from that, like, interaction between you and the. And the text. I don't think that happens with all writing, but I think especially with his writing, that is so his voice. Each of us have kind of just patiently stayed with it over the course of now two years, really, until it's like, it feels like our Own. And, and, and it's really mysterious the way the character comes out of it. It's really genuinely very mysterious. I can't describe it and I don't consider myself a real like woo woo person. But like this has been a very kind of mystical experience for me. And I do think there is some sort of a character there. I can't really tell you much about what I'm doing to make that character, but people seem to have a very strong. People find him very different from me or they find him very terrifying even.

32:25

What are you doing? What's happening on stage when you're not speaking and you're just sitting there? Are you like scanning the audience to see if you know anyone in there? Like what, what's happening there?

34:35

I go straight to the house seats to see if there are any major celebs. No, I, the other actors, we spend a lot of time on stage sitting there as the other people talk. And I swear to God, I'm not trying to be a good student. I really am listening to the other people there. Of course, times when my mind has wandered and I've, I've. I'll be sitting there and I'll go. I never texted her back, you know, like, something like that will happen. And I'm like. And then I just feel this in me. Like, get out of my head. This is disgusting. Like, how dare you? Like, I have no control over it. But like when a thought like that comes up, I just like. But I, for the most part I'm just listening because the, it is. And I thought that might become. I thought I might become antsy over the course of the run. I thought I might, it might be really difficult, but it is. Like, I find his writing just very easy to listen to. It's very seductive and hypnotic and they're so good, the other actors, that it's just. I don't know. And I think also that we are this strange kind of four person organism and we have to listen to each other. Like we do have to. Even though they're these like monologues that are, you know, self contained in a way, they total. Like we, we really do have to like in a very subtle, mysterious way, have to respond to each other. And so it does actually feel like my job and one that I'm very happy to do. And I'm just so happy to not be on my phone for like three and a half hours every night. I turn it off before the play, I put it in a drawer and then I get to sit on stage. And listen to, like, the most beautiful play ever written. It's like. It's crazy.

34:44

Yeah, I'm really jealous of that aspect. That's why I go to the theater, is to also not be on my phone.

36:28

And yet people don't turn off their phones and sometimes use them during the play. And I look at them. I look at them. If I see a blue light go up, you know, on someone's face, I'll just look at them until they stop.

36:34

How could you not?

36:49

Yeah.

36:50

So I wanted to talk, of course, about your film Maddie's Secret, which is a fantastic movie that premiered in Toronto last year. And then now it's just a new director's new films. How was the screening?

36:50

Oh, my God. The screening was a total dream. I really think it's one of the only dignified film festivals. I said that last night. You know, you don't have to sit through some long video of, like, corporate sponsors. There's no pandering to the. That festival isn't, like, desperate to, like, pander to the Internet culture. You don't feel like, you know, how every corporation obviously has, like, a gay intern running the social media. Like, you don't feel that with new directors.

37:02

No, you don't.

37:33

There's no food trucks. They're like. It's just. It's. There's no, like, you know, like, activation or whatever. There's no.

37:34

Exactly.

37:40

There's no activation. It's so nice. It's so nice. And it's such a beautiful theater. And I was really thrilled by the. We. Apparently, I unfortunately couldn't go, but the Los Angeles Festival of Movies screening was really raucous, and people were apparently. It was apparently very vocal. And. And so I was maybe scared that a Lincoln center screening would be a bit more reserved, but people were really laughing. And then they seemed to also go with its tonal shifts, too. Who's to say, you know, I'm not inside their heads? But it was. I was thrilled. I was. And it was so nice to watch the movie after, like, months away from it and to be like, oh, I love this. I actually love this movie. And I. I don't need to be

37:41

ashamed of it when I tell people in my life about this movie that haven't seen it, don't go to festivals, whatever, are not in the industry. I've sort of described it as being like a melodrama meets Strangers with Candy, but deprived of irony. And the first time I watched this movie, I thought it was quite disturbing, actually. And then the second time I Thought it was really funny and sweet and heartfelt. So what was the tone that you were searching for in the writing of it?

38:28

I think it is. It's. In one way it's successful or, like, in one way, I do feel it. It has achieved the tone that I set out to make. And then in another way, I always knew that part of it was a true experiment.

38:52

I, I.

39:07

A tonal experiment in that I, I really, I knew I wanted the movie to kind of transform over the course of the movie, you know, like almost like a TV movie that becomes real, that loses its kind of rigidity and becomes, like, more emotional over the course of. I knew, but. But I really did not. But I also did want to preserve. I didn't want to, like, totally lose the genre. And, you know, I wanted it to still be there. I still wanted to be funny, you know, I really just didn't know it was. It was really a risk. Like, the risk was always, like, what would happen if we just threw ourselves into this. And, like, if you obey the rules of the genre, like, it starts in like, a chirpy, sweet kind of paper doll place, and then they get those, those melodramas, those TV movies, they get pretty harrowing, you know, and if we, if we really are committed to the genre, then we have to do the second half too, you know, that was kind of the tonal experiment. And I didn't know. I was scared that that would feel like a betrayal to the audience, you know, that, like, that. That they might feel like they had just kind of acclimated to a set of tonal rules and that they would feel like the rug was pulled out underneath them. But is that the metaphor? The rug was pulled out?

39:08

That is. That is correct.

40:29

Okay, thank you. To me, in watching it last night, I was surprised by. It feels more integrated. It doesn't feel like a slap in the face, the turns, at least to me, I can't say for other people, but to me it feels like the kind of emotional seeds of it are there from the beginning. And the comedy doesn't fully go away either. So it feels more. I'm proud of that feeling of synthesis in, in the movie, but I did. I think the thing I was conscious of when I was writing, or at least I was like, more in control of in the writing, was like a kind of showgirlsy feeling. Like a kind of carnal, kind of pervy. Kind of like the word that is always used when people describe the Showgirls screenplay is overripe dialogue. And I think that's really a great way to describe. And I think it's totally deliberate in Showgirls. And also, people call Tennessee Williams over ripe. And I agree. And. And I. And I also think it's deliberate when he does it. And that was, like. That was something I wanted to do. And I felt like it was working as I was writing, and then it worked too, later when I was filming. But also the show. Gross feeling of, like, it being so highly choreographed all the time. Like, so kind of, like almost too much camera movement or something. And I say that as a compliment. It's. I think it's a masterpiece. It's a cathedral. It's like, it's perfect. To answer your question, like, the tone I was going for was this kind of like. Like, unapologetically, like, cinematic kind of careening, like, expressive thing. And. And for me and Kate to always be kind of spinning around each other and laughing, you know, and for there to be, like, the towels being thrown in the face and the water is being sprayed everywhere. And that. That's, like. That was there from the beginning. And I feel like we were able to do that even on a pretty low budget.

40:30

Anyway, you directed and star in the movie, and here you are playing a woman who is a food influencer, who is bleeming, which is a highly unusual elevator pitch.

42:29

Yes.

42:39

So I'm curious about. Is it challenging to get that idea financed?

42:39

It's actually just such a shock that it wasn't. It was not hard. I can't believe I'm saying this, but, like, first of all, it's because of the budget level we were proposing. Like, it's easier to get something financed where it feels like less of a financial risk to people and. But I did still think, even at this budget level, that we would have trouble, given the kind of central conceit of me playing the woman and it being about something that is maybe hot button for people, you know, But I also really aimed in the script for it to be, like, propulsive and, like, traditionally entertaining and for it to be compelling and moving at the end of the day, like, I am Maddie, there is some weird kind of, like, there is a subconscious need to be a little rebellious on some level in me, you know, as a child of Presbyterian ministers, you know, that kind of thing that, like, quality or even maybe in a more benign way, like, an impishness is in the movie. For sure. There's, like. It has, like, teeth in some ways, but also, like, it's a very tender movie. And it's also, like, A very sweet and kind of like, precious movie, too. It's like a little handmade little diary or something, you know? And I think what I was so relieved by is that I think people immediately. Financiers that we worked with, these incredibly special financiers, trusted that they didn't. They. They could sense in the script that this wasn't a. Kind of like a movie that was just trying to be provocative for provocation's sake, you know?

42:44

Yeah. And the movie is not cynical and it's not snarky about the material, which is really refreshing. I feel like that's sort of the pose that in another director's hands, this kind of movie would take. Right. So the other thing I wanted to talk about is basically, how was the idea always to cast yourself?

44:18

That was always the idea. It never. That was the whole point. Like, it never was. Like, I wanna. Like, the story didn't come first. Like, I wasn't like, God, I'm dying to make a movie about, you know, a food influencer with a eating disorder.

44:35

You know?

44:52

And then suddenly, a month in, I went, it's me. I have to play here. Like, that was never. No, that was not the order of operations. It was always that I wanted to play an ingenue. And then, you know, I had an experience when I was 2, in 2012, when I was 4, that I. I'm doing the math.

44:53

I don't know about that.

45:19

So now I'm 18.

45:22

Yes.

45:25

I don't know. I have no kid. I'm barely legal. Yes. When I was in 2000. Or actually, no, 2010. Right. When I came out of college, I did a production. I got my friends together and we. We did a production of Psycho Beach Party, the Charles Bush play also made a movie.

45:25

I've seen the movie.

45:43

And, you know, originally in the play, Charles Bush plays Chiclet and the. The kind of chirpy, bubbly ingenue at the center of it all with multiple personalities. And that was one of the most incredible experiences of my life, playing that part. And it was so. I don't know, I just. I wanted to do something like that again. And that play really spoke to me, and Charles Bush's whole thing really spoke to me. Thing is obviously an incredibly diminishing way of putting it. But anyway. And then, of course, divine. You know, when I first saw Polyester, I, like, wept uncontrollably because it was like. I was like, oh, my God. I've always wanted to do this. I've always wanted to do, like, Elevated kind of highbrow sketch comedy in a way. You know, it's. I'm not. That's so much more than a sketch, but it's like, I always wanted to play characters, and I wanted to play women. And when you're younger, you know, you see that kind of. In broad sketch comedy. But then when I saw John Waters and Female Trouble and Polyester, I was like, it was just so beautiful and tasteful, and it was long. It was a full movie. It always starts with a desire to play a certain role or, like, certain archetype or like, some sort of performance instinct that I then build the narrative around to support that instinct. And in this case, I really wanted to play, like, a kind of. Like this. This kind of Maddie character I've always had in me. Like, it's my way of making fun of my own kind of, like,

45:45

I

47:29

don't know, my own kind of prudishness or my own kind of, like, Pollyanna.

47:29

Ish.

47:33

Pollyanna. I am a Pollyanna. Like, you know, I don't think a lot of people don't think of me in that way because I've, I guess, on some level, tried to correct for that in my work by being a little crazy or something, you know, I don't know. But, like, in my real life, I'm kind of a Pollyanna, and I grew up in Tennessee and was, like, a good student and was, like a good son, you know? So, yeah, I don't know. That kind of energy has always been there. And, like, I love to talk like that. It's so. It really just. I love it, and I wanted to build something around that, and that's how it started. And I also think, like, when you're directing and the lead role, you lose a lot. That's like, a huge sacrifice, you know, it's like you are creating. You're, like, imposing a level of blindness that is crazy and really hard to navigate around. But you're also directing the movie from within the movie. You're like. You are the hand up the puppet, like, in the sock, you know, it's like. And I really feel like I was able to direct in a more sophisticated and efficient way than I would have had I just been behind the. The camera, like, by being Maddie and by. And by creating a kind of performance style that everyone around me just kind of picked up on and absorbed and locked in with.

47:33

What's also unique about the movie is that you shot it in LA and not, like, on a soundstage in Hungary or something. Right. And so it's really embedded in all these neighborhoods that are more. On the more eastern side of la. And I think your movie actually made LA more look more beautiful than it does.

48:54

Thank you.

49:09

Yeah. And I'm just saying that as someone who used to live there and is very over it now. Right.

49:10

Well, it's weird. I think LA is so beautiful and. But whenever it's on screen, people tend to focus on like, very cynically on like the kind of like the artifice of la, the boob jobs, you know, and like, and the, and the grime and the. And there is a lot of grime. There is a lot of like, you know, what's it called? Urban sprawl or, you know, there's like, there's a lot of smog. There's, you know, it's like, it's, it's in some ways a horrible place to live. But there is like a crazy like, it's also full of beautiful mountains and ocean and like, and like exotic plants that, you know, and that's. Flashdance was like a huge inspiration because it's this like kind of urban fairy tale and there's like. And I. And so that's why we have like, we put like fake jasmine through a little fence in the opening sequence and she's like smelling the jasmine in this kind of like grimy city where people are catcalling her and like, you know. But I think to me, like when I walk around Los Angeles at night and there's like literally night blooming jasmine and it's like. And the plants are like alien. They're so crazy, the plant life there. I'm like, this is. And like. And you know, there are these sweet little campy homes that were made by people who moved here to work in Hollywood. And they look like the snow white houses, you know, it's like there's just, there's a real, there's a kind of fairy tale quality to it that I feel like people for some reason often ignore when filming la. They just, they just focus on the more bleak parts of it.

49:14

Were there people who were scared of the movie at all along the way?

50:57

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's hard not to like, I think everyone's like a little traumatized from being on the Internet, you know. And I think this movie is like maybe a little ambitious and it's like thematic or narrative choices, its scope or, you know, whatever, or the central conceit of me playing Maddie and you know, but I actually. It was really beautiful, like, I think because I knew. I'm not like, I knew that my intentions with this movie were good, you know, like, that. I think that hopefully radiated out for me, and people felt like they weren't, you know, but they were. They were willing to take the risk of, like, making this movie and seeing where it landed tonally, because I couldn't totally promise anything, really. But no one was scared in a way that was like. That stopped the gears from turning.

51:01

Thank you so much, John. That was such a pleasure. When can we. When can we see the film? So the film is coming out in June. June, okay.

52:06

Distributed by the great Magnolia Pictures.

52:13

All right, well, thank you, John.

52:16

Thank you so much.

52:17