Episode 347: Helping Kids Have Conviction and Compassion In These Tumultuous Times with Justin Giboney

Parents, are you looking for a screen-free, engaging way to teach your kids the Bible? One that's easy to understand and enjoyable for multiple ages? Kids Bible Stories Podcast is here to help. I created this for my own children, and it's now a favorite among thousands of families. Kids love the vivid imagery, scriptures, and sound effects, while parents appreciate the apply section for meaningful conversations. We have hundreds and hundreds of beautiful episodes that bring the Bible to life when you simply press play. It's a sound and practical resource that walks alongside you as you teach your kids. We want kids to see how incredible God's Word is in an engaging and memorable way with Kids Bible Stories Podcast. Listen to Kids Bible Stories Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, parents! It's Sissy Goff. And David Thomas, and we are so excited to bring the capable tour your way this spring. We know parenting feels heavy right now, and kids are carrying big emotions, big pressure, and a lot of stress. This night is about helping you move from panic to peace, giving you practical tools to help your kids manage big feelings and build real resilience. You'll leave encouraged, equipped, and reminded that your child and you are truly capable. Tickets are on sale now and going fast. So grab yours today at tprlive.co and we'll see you this spring. Hey friends, welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls Podcast. I'm Sissy Goff. And I'm David Thomas, and we're so glad you've joined us for this conversation. Let's dive in. Justin Gibbany is an attorney, political strategist, and civic leader based in Atlanta, Georgia. As the co-founder and president of the AND campaign, a Christian civic organization Justin focuses on the intersection between faith and politics. He's the co-author of Compassion and Conviction, the AND Campaign's Guide to Faithful Civic Engagement, and the book Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around, How the Black Church's Public Witness Leads Us Out of the Culture War. His work has been featured in publications such as The New York Times and Christianity Today. And I have to say, you guys, I had the honor of speaking in an event with Justin and was so blown away by his talk that I immediately came to David and said, we've got to have him on the podcast. We're so excited for you to listen to this conversation. There's so many important nuggets about teaching kids the very things he's talking about, compassion and conviction, how we help lead kids into that in such a time as this. Justin, we are so honored to have you on the podcast. Will you just start off by telling us a little bit about your story and how you found your way to the work you're doing? Sure. So I'm originally from Denver, Colorado. I'm the son of a preacher's kid. So my grandfather was a bishop in the Church of Living God PGT Nation. Sports were very important throughout my life. So I ended up getting a football scholarship to Vanderbilt University and went to Vanderbilt University Law School, ended up getting a job in Atlanta, in the city of Atlanta, which is kind of a place I always wanted to be. And so while I was working at a firm, I had a group of friends that we were always just coming together and talking about either sports or politics. And one day we kind of looked around and say, why are we being so academic about this? We should actually get into politics. So there was a mayoral race in Atlanta coming up. We did some research and memos on the candidates. There was a candidate out of Howard University who was a state center at the time that we said, this guy looks pretty impressive. Basically just knocked on the door of the campaign and Mayor Cassimere later became the mayor. And I was kind of with him while he was in the mayor's office in the law department, but also in the development department. And then I would take leaves of absence to run campaigns throughout the city and the region on his behalf. And then I think as my faith started to grow stronger, I realized that I needed to use some of the things I was learning for the kingdom rather than just using it for a party or one particular issue. Which you were certainly doing. And I saw great evidence of that when we were recently together at a speaking event. And I was so blown away, Justin. I mean, literally, David is right. I came back talking the most about hearing you talk. And I was just telling him this morning as we were getting things ready that you got a standing ovation, which I totally got. I was among them hopping up out of my seat, just so grateful for the perspective that you brought. And that was based on your book, Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around. Will you talk about that book in particular and what led you to write that? Yeah. So this is a book that's very personal to me, because it kind of starts off with my maternal grandmother, Willie Fay. And it makes her and her favorite gospel artist, who was Mahalia Jackson, kind of the center of the narrative. So the book is historical, also some commentary, but also there's a narrative kind of that wraps around it and connects me to kind of the civil rights movement. I wrote the book for a few reasons. Number one, I think that the civil rights movement is a legacy for Christians, not just me, not just my community, but I think for all of Christianity, that we really need to dig into and that in some ways, we're losing some of those principles. So it's something that I think blessed the world that showed what Christ should really look like in the public square and what the church should look like. But I think we're kind of losing that. And to break that down just a little bit, two things I think there's been a little bit of revisionist history around the civil rights movement. So for one, I wanted to show that you could care about social justice and you could be serious about justice. So you could care about social justice and you'd be orthodox rather, because I think there's this idea that the civil rights movement was very, very progressive as we look at it today. And the people who were part of that were clearly about the authority of scripture and the promises of God. So I want to be very clear about that. But then also that there are times when we have to stand up for something and for others and what that looks like and how we might apply it today. So the book basically says how would the civil rights movement deal with the culture war and today's polarization? I try to answer that question. Yeah. Well, let's keep unpacking that because in this season of our podcast, we're talking about what kids need right now. And you wrote this book in a moment when our culture feels especially loud and polarized. And from your perspective, Justin, what would you say that kids need right now in order to grow up steady and grounded in who they are? That's a really good question. It always starts with the Bible, right? It always starts with helping them understand who God says that they are and really what their mission is. And so as Christians, we have to understand that we are sojourners, that we're pilgrims and all of this, and God has called us to self-sacrifice for our neighbors. That very much goes against what I see in the culture war as a very self-interested, my tribe has to win everything point of view. And so as young people understand who God has called them to be, what their mission is, it helps them get through some of the snares that they can run into in a culture that I think centers the individual and centers self-interest in a way that I think goes against the gospel. Yes. Well, one of the things that we talk about often is identity. And for kids and teens today who are being shaped by social media, politics, cultural pressure, what does it look like for them to build an identity that isn't so easily turned around? Yeah, that's good. One of the things that I use for my kids, because one of the big things about this is proof of concept. As parents and you guys are bigger experts than I am, certainly on this, you can tell kids a lot of things, but sometimes they have to see it. Number one, they have to see it in you, right? So they have to see you being distinctive in the culture, you reacting to things differently than other people would react to them. And it also helps them to have examples in society. One thing I love today, I'm a big football fan, I'm a Little League football coach and all that. I love how a lot of college football athletes are praising God in the culture and not being ashamed to do that. That helps me show my sons what that looks like. But also, I think historical examples of people who have stood up, whether it be Dorothy Day or Fannie Lou Hamer, have stood up within the culture, made a difference, but been very clear on who they were for Christ and that that came first. But also, that that didn't keep them from having relationships and touching other people and being and learning from other people. So that's a big part of identity, knowing who you are, but also having proof of concept to say, okay, my parents aren't just saying this is who I should be in the midst of all this. People have done it before they do it. And therefore, I know I can do it too. Would you tell the story about Fannie Lou Hamer as we're talking about identity? Yeah, so I think Fannie Lou Hamer is an excellent example of this. Fannie Lou Hamer was a civil rights advocate in the 1960s and 50s probably. And her story is just awesome because again, it gives us proof of concept of what it means to be a Christian and what it looks like to have a Christian identity in society. So one of the stories is as she was going around the South, and what she was doing, she was trying to mystify, demystify the political process because even when people had the right to vote and they could do it, when you haven't had a right for so long, almost don't believe it's real. So a lot of people weren't using it because they were like, yeah, I heard that, but I've never done it. They couldn't really be allowing us to impact the political process. They've never done it before. That's not going to happen. So she's going around showing people, no, let me demystify this and help you understand how you can have an impact through voting and other means. So she gets pulled over by I think a highway patrolman who takes her takes her in and he has another inmate kind of beat her until she almost dies. I mean, she's almost, she can barely walk. She's swollen. And years later, someone asked her what she thought about the officer. And this is huge. And I think this encapsulates so much of what Christianity is about. She said, I feel sorry for him because he's broken. And America's broken and Christians need to be the doctor. So whereas I think today we might say he's evil, he's a terrible, you know, these irredeemable, how dare somebody do love something like that? She turns it around in a way that I think that Jesus would to say, no, to be broken is to be redeemable. To be broken is to say he has something wrong and it needs to be fixed. Not we need to dismiss him. We need to completely demonize him at all times or that we, he doesn't need to be held accountable. She still hasn't tried to hold him accountable. But Christians are here to try to fix that. I think that's, after going through so much suffering to be able to say that, I just think that's amazing. I agree. Thank you for telling that story. Okay, let's just be honest for a moment. At our age, we can't remember what we had for breakfast. Or where we parked the car or our login information for literally anything. If a website asked me to create a new password, I immediately need a snack and a nap. That's why I love that little purple shop pay button. You know the one where you're checking out online and suddenly there it is, like a beacon of hope, no digging for your wallet, no resetting your password for the fifth time, one tap and you're done. It's the best feature in the chaotic world of online shopping. 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Sometimes the compassion, it depends on the kid, but sometimes the compassion is not so natural for them. So I think we need to show them compassion in ourselves and show them one thing I do with my sons is show them times when people have been gracious and compassionate to them and have them think about how they would have felt if there was no one there to do that. Right? Also, something that I began to practice was obviously I discipline my kids. Sometimes in their biggest mistakes, I try to show them grace in that and not get as mad and as upset. Right? So they let them know it's serious, but to say, you know what? I'm going to show you grace on this because I'm actually more concerned than you getting it right than you feeling that I'm mad at you right now. So how can we sit in that? So I think that compassion, again, all this goes back to Jesus and learning about Jesus and how he interacted with people throughout the Gospels. But we have to show them that through different experiences that they have in their life. One thing I will say though is I have had to, as I go and speak to a lot of Christian parents, reinforce the idea that fortitude is a Christian virtue. Because I think we're in a culture sometimes where we just begin to coddle so much that we don't think that, hey, this kid's going to need to be tough sometimes. They're going to need to, I'm not going to always be there to protect them. How can we build that toughness? So you got to let your kids do tough things. Kids are actually really resilient if you allow them to be. And as a football coach, I really believe that obviously you want to keep kids safe, but you can overdo that. And I think the safetyism that we've given into really needs to be pushed back on, let them be tough. Let them know every time they get hurt doesn't mean that it's over. They actually have the agency to overcome it. And sometimes, let's even talk about insults or things like that. It's your decision how far you let that get to you, right? How much that has an impact to you. In many cases, you do have some say on that. And that's why God tells us to be strong. That's why God tells us to be slow to take offense. It indicates that oftentimes, and maybe not always, oftentimes we do have a say on how something impacts us, or at least how much we kind of harp on it. Yes, I love that word fortitude. That is such a great reminder. Your book talks a lot about formation over reaction, which I love as well. How can parents model today a slower, wiser way of engaging the world when everything around us pushes toward outrage and immediacy? Yeah, that's a really good question. One thing I try to do with my boys is analyze situations before reacting to the situation. Not everything is as simple as it appears on its face. And so, can we step back and say, okay, let's look at the different perspectives on this. We may very well disagree with one of those perspectives, but if there's two or three different perspectives, let's try to look at it before we respond. And we don't always have to respond immediately. And that's not just kids. I think people in general have to learn when something big happens. We don't always just have to react. Our public witness and our ministry in general can't just be a reaction to the people that we don't like. So I want to tell them and have them understand that sometimes it takes time to figure out what's going on. And then even once you figure out what's going on, how do we have grace for the people we disagree with? How do we try to see their perspective and move forward in a constructive manner? Because reactions don't often help us. Now, I think we can show our kids that sometimes when they react to something and they're actually wrong, it may be a time to say, hey, this is an example of how if we take our time, we may be able to come to a better conclusion. And so those are some of the exercises just on a daily basis I try to go through with my sons. Yes. Okay, even exploring that more, I think many kids today feel like they have to choose sides, socially, culturally, even spiritually. And what do you want parents to understand about helping kids navigate a world that insists on either or thinking? That's great. The first thing we need to do is we need to break down the good versus evil framework of seeing the world, because it's just not a biblical framework. The Bible tells us that we're all broken. And while on any given issue, one side or the other may be very wrong, and that may be clear. It doesn't mean that our side is completely good. And their side is completely irredeemable. That's the first thing I want to push back against. And one place to start is just to go to Luke, to the praying Pharisee, who goes and he's praying to God and saying, thank God, I'm not like these other people. And so he's making that statement. And then you have the public in who's saying, I'm not even worthy to speak, I'm not even worthy to be addressing you God. And the Bible says that it's the praying Pharisee, I'm sorry, the Bible says that it's the public in that is actually the one who's justified. We cannot look just look down on other people without realizing the sin and so a better framework that I've tried to use is a framework that realizes the Amago day in others, which means that they're always redeemable, right? And it realizes the sin and us. This is something that you see in the civil rights generation. And it's the reason that the example we gave earlier, Fannie Lou Hamer could say, hey, this person's broken, but not going so far as to say this person is irredeemable. Once we're able to do that, we then can question what we do and even question what the some of the things that people on our side do. I often say that it's okay to lean to one side of another or say, hey, this side gets six out of 10 things right. Therefore, I'm going to lean this way and I may often find myself agreeing with them. I think that's okay. What a Christian can't do is just dismiss those other four things that they get wrong. So first of all, we have to identify the right and wrong on our side. And one good way to do that for kids for adults to say, okay, my group of friends or, you know, might be against this other group of friends, what are some of the things that we might have gotten wrong? What's some of the ways that we might have actually reacted or overreacted or reacted wrongly to something they did? And I tell adults to do the same thing. If you're a progressive or conservative, as a Christian, you should be able to be a critical thinker and say, what have we gotten wrong over history? And can I list that out? If I can't list that out, then I'm not being a critical thinker and I've been indoctrinated and I'm not being honest with myself. And so those are ways that we can get ourselves and children to see. It's a little more complicated than that. And even if I'm right most of the time or my side's right most of the time, we're not perfect. I need to have humility and be aware that we can get something wrong very wrong. It's so good. I'm so grateful for your words. So we see a lot of kids who are struggling with anxiety around the state of the world. Like I don't remember 20 years ago, so many more kids. What practices or rhythms would you say can help kids and adults feel hopeful and empowered rather than just overwhelmed? That's good. A lot of this is perspective. And this is why I think the book and just an understanding of the civil rights movement and what they were trying to do is important. Because we can tend to think in our day and kids, especially when they get caught on to one issue and they start to care, they say, well, that's a serious issue. We still have to give them perspective. And so if we look at what's going on today and we say this is the worst thing that could ever happen. This one moment is the exception to all of our principles, then we end up in a bad place. But if we have the perspective to say there's been a time where things were worse and Christians responded with hope, that means that I can do it too. Right. And also realizing that if we don't respond with hope, we're less likely to have an impact on the bad things that are happening. So by keeping a positive attitude, by having faith in God and what he can do, even when it seems to be out of our hands and sometimes that it is, we actually have been empowered to have an impact on the things that are within our sphere of influence. God has given us that ability through him. But in order to do that, we have to have moral imagination. We have to see behind the moment we can't be arrested by the moment and we have to have hope and we have every reason to have hope if we understand who God is. And so that's where I would start with that. You can have an impact, but being hopeful and positive and having a broader perspective allows you to address it in a way to where you're not arrested by the moment. We don't ever want to be arrested by the moment. Okay, I've been doing a little spring reset with my closet lately. Fewer pieces, better materials, quality over quantity, which is how I accidentally discovered something life changing. I feel a little nervous. 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Go to quince.com slash rbg for free shipping and 365 day returns, now available in Canada too. Go to quince.com slash rbg for free shipping and 365 day returns, quince.com slash rbg. You know, we are firm believers that we all need a little more laughter and a whole lot more grace. And if you are raising a child with ADHD, dyslexia, autism, or another learning and thinking difference, you know how intense some days can feel. The advocacy, the school meetings, the meltdowns, the moments when you wonder if you're getting any of it right. If that hits home, we recently found a podcast we think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box for Parents of Neurodivergent Kids. Check out a few episodes, including one about parenting regrets after an ADHD and autism diagnosis, and another about how fine isn't always fine when it comes to dyslexia. You'll appreciate the tone, it's honest, it's warm, it's funny in the way that only parents who truly get it can be. You can hear the relief in their voices when they realize they're not alone. It feels like sitting down with other parents who understand the mysteries, the multiple diagnosis, and the beauty in the middle of it all. If you could use that kind of community and encouragement, we really think you'll like it. To listen, search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box. Okay, we'd love to ask you now, Justin, how would you say faith communities and families work together to shape kids who engage a complex world while staying rooted and love humility and truth? I mean, this is the purpose of community. This is why we need each other, the reinforcement that we give. One thing that I would always say is, as much as you can, allow them to have diverse relationships. Don't allow them, and to go along with that, don't allow them to judge people off profile or stereotypes. And we can do that without even realizing it. And that doesn't always have to be a racial stereotype, but allow them to get to know people and to know their struggles. One thing that I say is that you can't have a constructive conversation with someone until you can articulate their point of view and understand the good that they're trying to get at. So most people aren't purely malicious. Even if they're wrong, there's some good that they see in the way that they're going about things. And if we can't articulate that, we can't really have a constructive conversation. So there's time to listen and try to understand where they're coming from, build relationships. And it's not always about winning the argument. So if we have relationship, if we listen to people, we can kind of grow to see people and have a perspective that can actually persuade others. If you don't understand people, and I think Christianity has committed this sin in the past, just going in without leading with compassion and expecting people to change just because we said so, not because we reached them where they were at and articulated why we believe is what's best for them. That takes relationship, that takes listening and it takes humility to admit when you're wrong. Definitely. Well, this is a fun question to ask because I feel like you would have some great thoughts around this. And I think we would certainly say we have a lot of hope for the next generation. And we would be curious when you think about the next generation, what gives you hope and what do you believe this generation of kids today is uniquely capable of bringing into the world? Oh, that's really, that's great. When I look at the next generation, I see even in my sons and others a thirst for the gospel and a kind of confidence that my generation didn't necessarily have. So I'm a millennial. We kind of came after, we came after the moral majority and all that. And so I think we overcorrected and we kind of said, you know, we don't ever want to be seen as judgmental. We don't ever want to be seen as, you know, placing things or, you know, throwing Bibles at people's head. But because of that, we kind of went through this identity crisis where we weren't very bold at all when it came to our, what we believe. So when we get into corporate America, when we get into academia, we're just like, Hey, I want to show you, I'm not one of those Christians. What I see with the younger generation is a confidence coming back. And hopefully this time that that confidence is mixed with a compassion and a relationship with others so that we can better reflect Jesus. I see hopefully them being able to correct some of our mistakes and have that boldness, but not a boldness that doesn't have compassion and sympathy and love for people that we disagree with. I'm hopeful that that'll be the case. But I certainly see some confidence that I didn't necessarily see in parts of my generation. So good. We're hopeful with you in finishing the conversation, in talking about what kids need right now. Justin, we'd love to ask you that question. Like, what would you say is one thing you need right now as a dad, as a human? I think grace, you know, we can talk about how parents need to raise their kids and all this stuff is great information. But at the end of the day, kids make decisions and have, I want parents to have grace for themselves. And I try to have grace for myself and others when it comes to raising children because it's just hard. It's not an exact science. And a lot of it has to do with prayer. So I think grace and community are something that I pray for, you know, all the time, because we can be really hard on ourselves. It's a tough job. And we've got to trust God and know that everything's not going to always go right. It's not always our fault. And even when it is that we have to have grace for ourselves and others. Amen. Amen. Justin, thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you for the heart and thoughtfulness you put into this book that you're putting into the world. I really am so grateful to know you and hope our paths intersect a lot more. You do. David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible. Chris Sterrett, our engineer, our management team at KCH. We are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network. Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A. And if this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing all the things. We are grateful for you and cheering you on always. I created this for my own children and it's now a favorite among thousands of families. Kids love the vivid imagery, scriptures, and sound effects, while parents appreciate the apply section for meaningful conversations. We have hundreds and hundreds of beautiful episodes that bring the Bible to life when you simply press play. It's a sound and practical resource that walks alongside you as you teach your kids. We want kids to see how incredible God's Word is in an engaging and memorable way with Kids Bible Stories podcast. Listen to Kids Bible Stories podcast wherever you get your podcasts.