Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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And how to get away with murder in the Arctic. Maybe. You'll discover stories of history, science, art, and culture you won't find in a display case. You can listen to Side Door wherever you get your podcasts. Or find us online at si.edu. I think this will work now. Justine, give me a one, two. One, two, one, two. Amazing. This microphone smells like coffee. That's gross because I don't think anybody's used it for a very long time. Is that side in? I'm Nate Hedgie, and I'm going to do a roll call because we've got a whole bunch of us right now. So roll call Felix Poon, present. Present. Taylor Quimby, present. Here. Justine Beride, present. This is bringing me back to middle school and I'm not liking it. You'd have to mispronounce our names to really bring us back though. Felix, I'm going to give you the reins. All right, so do you all remember what's going to be happening on November 2nd? Do I have like a haircut appointment? No, okay. Is that something to do with our clocks? Yes. So that is the day we have to set our clocks back by one hour because it's the end of daylight saving time. And I recently asked our colleagues about their thoughts on this annual ritual. And what I found was that people detest changing the clocks. I hate daylight savings. I cannot wait till it's gone forever. I find it so irritating. I hate this. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. Single issue voter on that. That was like four hates in one sentence. But on the other hand, some people are actually really into it. So I love daylight saving time. I like it. It's exciting. I don't know why I am so excited. Wow, Mara, betrayer. What's going on, Mara? You know, even though we do this every year, a lot of folks just can't remember how it works. I'm confused. I was kind of confused about what we're talking about. Everybody was confused. What happens in the spring? What happens in the fall? I think. I'm totally guessing right now. I have to remember every year to reset the clock on my car. And some years I just don't do it. And I just like operate on the wrong time for six months. And then like, oh, it's back. Same. Does anyone know how daylight saving time became a thing in the first place? It had something to do with farmers, right? Actually, so Germany started it during World War I as an energy saving measure. And then the US kind of followed suit. And then throughout the century, the federal government kind of went back and forth on this, like local cities and states did their own thing until 1974. The US actually experimented with making daylight saving time permanent. They were like, let's stop changing the clocks back and forth. Why did that not work? It seems like that's what everybody wants. Because there was a public outcry. Kids were waiting for buses in the dark. Some were getting hit by cars. Well, the solution to that is to move the school day later, which is what everyone wants. Yes. Thank you. It's to change our lives and not the freaking time. God. I think the reason that people get so upset about this is that we want to think of time as this thing we can control. We try to organize our lives around these schedules, like work schedules, class schedules, nap time for kids. But disrupting the clock even by one hour, it's like we're losing our control over time. And maybe it's a reminder to us that time is actually this slippery, fluid thing. You know what all this reminds me of is, so I used to paint houses as my summer job when I was in college. And I had this boss, he used to play classical music and he played it because he was like, classical music slows down time so that we get more painting done per day. That's what he told me. What did he mean? How does that work? He was expressing the fact that listening to classical music made time feel like it went by slower because it's boring. I'll die on the hill of classical music is not boring. I'll charge the hill of classical music is boring, but that's another episode. You haven't heard good lesson music. I mean, I would load up my iPod with episodes of This American Life because it made it go by faster to listen to stories. You know the phrase time flies when you're having fun. Has that been proven? Is that an actual thing? Is there a scientist who sat down and was like, we will do a measurement test of how much fun changes time? Yeah. So that's the kind of time that I'm hoping to get at with this episode. Like the passage of time, the flow of it, our human perception of it. And so... We're going to free-base the concept of time a little bit. Yes. Yes. I put this challenge to you all. Can you go out into the world after we're done recording this? Find and bring back a story that plays with our perception of time. A story that ho ho hoaks at or stretches or maybe even obliterates what we understand about time. Could I just do like a normal story, but I speed it up at like five times the normal speed and that plays with the listener's perspective. I'm going to slow mine down. Okay, so does everyone understand the assignment? Yeah, we can do a lot of different things if we want to. It's a broad assignment. Yeah. It's a groucho, Marx. Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. That's such a good joke. All right. Thanks, everyone. Have a good weekend, guys. Yeah, you too. Bye. Bye. Bye. Check, check, check, check, check in the mic. Getting Zoom set up. Up, up, up, up, up. Meeting summary with AI companion. Oh, no. Oh, do we want it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, do we want to invite AI to this call? No. Yeah. I want to resist for as long as possible. Resistance is futile. Is it? That's what the Borg say. Resistance was not futile. The human resistance did make us able to resist the Borg. Yes, it did work. So we're back. Hey. I was thinking that I would go first because it could be foundational for the other stories. Okay. And I'm going to start my story in a car, a silver minivan, to be exact. It was a gray autumn day back in 2014. My wife and I were driving to my mother's to pick up our kids. So this is Steve Taylor. Steve and his wife were driving on the highway in England. At about 60 miles an hour. So not too fast, not too slow. And at one point he's passing this big tractor trailer when all of a sudden. I remember hearing the bang. That was when everything went into slow motion. And I said to my wife, what was that noise? And she said, oh, I think somebody's hit us. And then our car started to spin. There were lots of cars behind us and around us, obviously traveling at high speed. But to me, they seem to be very slow, very kind of almost like frozen. So my initial thought was, oh, you know, we're going to, we're going to die or have a serious accident. After a certain amount of time, I felt as though I did gain some control over the car. And I managed to move it towards the left and we crashed into the wall, into the crash barrier. And then everything went back into normal speed again. It was like I'd come out of a trance. So that was really why I became interested in these experiences. What I call, I call them time expansion experiences. Time expansion experiences? Wait, what does he do? Who is this guy? Very quickly though, I feel like I should say that neither Steve nor his wife were hurt in this accident. But yeah, Steve is actually a professor in psychology and he studies this stuff. And he told me the earliest written research on this was done by a Swiss scientist named Albert Heim in the 1880s, who had a pretty similar experience when he was falling from a mountain. He felt as though he had a lot of time to prepare for his landing, to shift around his body. So thousands of thoughts went through his mind. So there's no scientific consensus on why this happens, but Steve researched this by getting about 120 reports of time expansion experiences. And accidents were the number one trigger, but he founds that it also happens with athletes playing sports, psychedelic experiences, and spiritual experiences. The only time I can vividly remember time really slowing down was when I was almost bitten by a rattlesnake. And I remember hearing the rattle, the snake coiled, and the way my body just instantly reacted without me thinking. And I remember leaping in slow motion away from the snake and then landing and being like, whoa, I was with a friend and we were just both like, that was wild. Well, Steve does suggest in his research that it could be adaptive. Like we may have just evolved this ability to slow down time, like having these time expansion experiences as a way to help us survive. Yeah. He also says it's a reminder that time is more flexible than we think. He even thinks it supports what a lot of physicists say. Time is really like space. It's everywhere. And when we have time expansion experiences, there are kind of entry point into that kind of spatial, panoramic time world. But in terms of practical takeaways, Steve is thinking about how this might offer guidelines on how to live a good life. Like you might want to inject more new experiences into your life to break up the routine and repetition. Like rattlesnake bites. Almost get into car accidents, but don't. Yeah, I think he means things like travel or be a tourist in your own city and do new things. But these time expansion experiences, they get you thinking about whether we can shape time ourselves. Is it possible for us to consciously slow down time like they do in the Matrix or in other films? I fully think that people can do that in meditation. Oh, yeah. Have you ever slowed down time in meditation, Justine? No, I'm not anywhere near that level. So you're trying to keep the mind still for five minutes? Yeah, still trying to quiet the or tolerate the voice in the head. Um, should we move on to the next person? Who's next? That's me. I'm next. Okay. All right, let's hear it. Okay, so it's not controversial to say that we perceive time differently as we get older, right? Like summer break feels like an eternity when you're in second grade, but you know, by the time you're in high school, those weeks just fly by. Right. But I want to talk about a particular rite of passage as we get older that seems to have its very own particular way of bending time. And one person who knows exactly what I'm talking about is named Ritu Chatterjee. She's actually health correspondent for NPR. So you might have heard her voice. And she is a mom to a son who at the time we recorded this was a three and a half year old toddler. And yeah, so when I'm not on deadline or researching a story, I'm usually either trying to entertain him or getting entertained by him. So this thing I want to talk about sometimes is called parent time. And Ritu was warned about this actually before her baby was even born. So many experienced parents started giving us a piece of wisdom. They said, enjoy it while it lasts because while the days might seem long, the years are going to fly by very quickly. So she responded to this advice really seriously. She was like, you know what? I don't want the years to fly by. Like I want to be very present. And so even though her son was born at the very beginning of the pandemic, she tried to live every moment, you know, in the moment. Even though the cell phone was sort of my only connection to the outside world, I tried as much as possible not to be distracted when I was with my son, whether it was for a diaper change or like really paying attention to like those early milestones. Wow. That's devoted to the principle because the pandemic not being apparent during that time. That was hard to not be on your phone. Oh yeah. But three years later, looking back, I was like, where did all that time go? He's already almost three and now he's three and a half and he's talking. He has jokes. He tells stories. Already we're feeling this thing that parents had warned us about that the years will feel as if they've gone by very fast. Can't beat parent time. So earlier this year, Ritu decided to dig into why parents have this experience for a series the NPR did called Finding Time. She spoke to a couple of scientists, like a neuroscientist and a psychologist, and this is basically what they had to say. First, according to the warning, the days go slow, right? That's because she says our perception of time passing fluctuates based on how much information we're processing, just like Felix was talking about with the car accidents and things like that. And you know, there are a lot of new experiences when you're becoming a new parent. Like you've got to figure so many new things out for the first time. But also you're like up all hours of the night. You've got constant distractions. You know, you're changing diapers and you guys have probably heard the phrase, a watched pot never boils, right? Of course. So right those late night wakes when you're in the evening, when you're tired, trying to put your toddler or baby to sleep and the baby's crying. Time drags on in the moment because you're paying more attention to time. You wish it went faster. I mean, isn't a lot of stuff really mundane too? And you're like, the child is learning about the world. So it's repeating the same thing over and over and over and over. Yes. And parenting, like it's so much of this stuff is routines, you know, naps, feeding, pick up, drop off activities. And after you get past that initial intense learning curve, you know, you're kind of on autopilot. But the way that we perceive time in retrospect, so if we're looking back, what she learned is that's based on the memories that we're making. And no matter how much a parent like Ritu might think she's being really present in the moment, our brains are just not finally filing these routine memories away like we do other stuff. Every diaper change doesn't get saved as a separate memory. Every bath you have with your toddler, every meal you have with your kid does not get saved as a separate memory. So when we look back at time, we're like, oh my God. So routines are basically time killers. Oh, totally. And in fact, Ritu wanted to know, like, is there a way to break out of this? And one of the scientists that she spoke with did say, like, yeah, break out of your routines, try new experiences. And for Ritu, she says, like, the biggest thing I've actually changed is that I just, like, don't feel bad about totally destroying the bedtime routine. I don't get too worked up about getting him to bed on time because it makes more memories and stretches time in the moment. Huh. I do see this a little differently in the sense that, like, you know, as we get older, there is a beauty and there is stability in our routines. And I, for one, don't, like, want to leap into a midlife crisis and blow all of my life up just because I'm freaked out about how time feels like it goes by now. Yeah. And I think if feeling the fleeting nature of time is what helps us appreciate it better, then this is just part of grown up. There's this person I follow. Her name's Angela Trimber. She's a dance teacher in New York and she had breast cancer a few years ago and, you know, it was this life-threatening thing. And I really changed as she was approaching her life. But she, it wasn't, let's live every day as if it's the last because of exactly what you're saying, Taylor. Like, that's kind of chaos. Yeah. But she lives as if she has two years left because that was, I think, the remission time. And so that's enough time to have enough urgency but also enough gentleness in my life to really make the things I want to happen for myself. And I really liked that. Yeah, I like that too. Okay, we are going to take a quick break, but first a call out for your questions. This time we're looking for questions around the theme of red. Maybe things that are literally red like cardinals, blood, lipstick, or more abstract ideas like red hot anger, love, or whatever red might signify it for you. You can send us your questions by recording yourself on a voice memo and then emailing it to us at outsideinatnhpr.org. Or you can give us a call on our hotline by dialing 1-844-GO-AUTER. Alrighty, we'll be right back. If you've got a partner or a best friend, you've probably learned that it's not a great idea to unload all of your emotional baggage on them. I mean, it's just unfair. But it is still important to talk about that stuff, which is why a lot of us see therapists. 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Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash outside in. Go to Shopify.com slash outside in. That's Shopify.com slash outside in. Welcome back to Outside In. I'm Nate Hedgie and I am here today with the whole crew. We've got Taylor, Justine, Felix. And Felix, of course, has sent us on a quest for stories that challenge our perception of time. Felix and Taylor, you guys have already brought us our stories. Now it is time for me and Justine. Justine, why don't you hit it off? Oh, I think that you're going first. Nate, why don't you hit it off? Okay, I'll do it. This is great because we've been kind of talking about human perception of time, but I want to talk about time and biology and all that fun stuff. So do you guys get frustrated with flies? Oh, all the time. Shoe fly. I get irrationally angry at them, especially when I can't hit them. And I have a lot of flies in this house and they are constantly dodging my swing. I bet you that's like the car accident equivalent for a fly and it's having its own time expansion experience. Felix, absolutely. So the reason why flies are always able to dodge our swatters and all that kind of stuff is because they perceive time as much, much slower than we do. It would be kind of like the matrix, you know, that bullet time thing. Trinity, help! Where you can see all those little miniscule movements. We need as many matrix references in here as possible. So this is thrilling. So that is Kevin Healy. He is a macroecologist at the University of Galway. He focuses on time perception, like literally how creatures perceive time and space visually. And so to understand this, you have to think about frames per second. Are you all familiar with frames per second? Yeah. Oh yeah, movie buff. Yeah, like movies are played at a certain speed so that you see all these individual frozen pictures. Frames look like they're in motion. So we see about 60 frames per second or hertz. Interesting enough, that's the frame rate of a lot of TVs and for that reason. So Healy recently spearheaded this research that looks into how more than 100 animals perceive time. And he did this with a strobe light. It's like he would flash a strobe light faster and faster until the animal's optic nerve no longer noticed that it was flashing. So this is kind of what we mean by time perception. When can we no longer perceive some event happening? When is it going too fast? And we just kind of go, we mush it up and together. And in fact, wherever you're sitting, it's probably happening right now. AC Current is usually what's used for lights. So that light is actually probably flashing on and off very, very quickly. And what that looks like to us is a light bulb on. We're living like in a world that's just full of flashing lights that we can't see. Did he also play EDM music for the animals as he did this? So it was like a rainbow. I hope so. That is the image I had in my head. It's just like, not just a flashing white light, but like all these different flan, like pumping music and flies dancing. If you were a fly in a room, you would actually be able to see at 300 frames per second. Wow. It means that all of our light bulbs are computer screens. They would be flashing on and off and then giant hand coming down from the sky would be moving so slowly that you could just like lazily fly away. I feel like that would really give flies a headache. Yeah, that sounds super unpleasant. But on the other hand, if you were a starfish and yes, starfish do have eyes and they can only see about 0.7 frames per second. So they can't even see a frame per second. So for them, the world, if you could imagine it, is in very low temporal resolution. So everything's a blur basically. It's like if a fish swims past, it's just like this quick blur in and out. Like the world is zooming by. Kind of like those old school nature cams where you only get like a stop frame image every so often. Yeah, just things. Wow. And so the reason for all this difference between animals and time perception, Kevin thinks, is evolution. Smaller animals tend to see time faster because they could move quickly and act on that information. So if they see a predator coming at them really fast, they're fast enough to get out of way. If they weren't fast enough to get out of way, there'd be no point in having fast eyes. There'd be no evolutionary benefit to it. But if you're something like, well, the starfish, if you see something's moving, maybe that's useful, but that's all you need. But does this whole frames per second, does that really translate to perception of time being slower or faster? Yeah, like a housefly, it lives for about a month. But if it perceives time is way slower, then does that month feel the same way that a lifetime feels for a human? Fly years versus dog years. Right. There's an interesting other potential here, which is that there are certain animals and a fly might be one of them or a starfish. I have no idea where their memory is rudimentary compared to ours. And that means that maybe they are truly living moment to moment. They don't look back and be like, gosh, remember when I was just a little starfish and it just felt like things were so different then. Alright. Okay. So I'm up. Justine's up. Last but not least, Justine, what you got? So when I selected my time topic for today, I immediately thought of an old friend of mine. I was thinking about this the other day when you asked me to talk to you. We've been friends for almost 20 years. My friend's name, by the way, is Catherine Ake. She's an artist. And I called her up for a really specific reason because Kathy was the first person that I've met who knew that I was a starfish. And who knew that she had synesthesia. Yeah, I do. I have two kinds, two flavors of synesthesia that I'm aware of. Synesthesia. What is synesthesia? I've never heard of it. Yeah. Quick definition is this is a blending of the senses and one that is consistent and involuntary. So Kathy has one of her types is audio tactile synesthesia, meaning she feels sounds as physical sensations. So for instance, there's a particular guitar sound on this one, Modest Mouse album that she loves. But it's just this rolling warmth on my upper arms. And it's great. It's like a lovely feeling. Oh. But there's another kind more timely for our topic today, which has to do with our experience of time. You know, when I was younger, I thought everybody was perceiving time in this way. That's Patricia Lynn Duffy. She is an author, also an artist, and she has what's called time space synesthesia. So people who experience this see time often as a 3D object in their minds. Patricia remembers realizing that not everybody does this during a conversation with her father when she was around 16 years old. And I said, well, what does Monday look like to you? He said, Monday doesn't look like anything. And that really didn't make, I just didn't make any sense to me. Like, how could it not look like anything? It's a place. It's a place you go every week. So I didn't get into how this works like neurochemically, but I do know what it looks like for Patricia. I'm having trouble visualizing it. I'm having a really hard time visualizing this too. Like, I can visualize Monday. The word Monday. Like in my head, there's like an image of like, it's always raining because it's the start of the work week and nobody wants to be working. My image of Monday is like a Google calendar where I have certain, like, you know, you know, stuff to do and yeah. Well, I mean, I think that that's interesting. And well, for Patricia, there are a couple of things going on that sort of go beyond that. For example, a year is a kind of oblong string of colored rectangles and 12 rectangles, one for each month. Almost like a sidewalk. And this combines with another type of synesthesia she has in which letters and words have their own colors. So Tuesday is blue. Well, November is a shade of deep burgundy brown. I think because November, the word November for me is a dark brown, but the V in November is a very, is a very vivid burgundy. When we release this episode, Patricia will have just crossed over into that burgundy rectangle that is November along the pathway. So in other words, as time passes, Patricia is reorienting and moving along the sidewalk of the year in her mind. Cool. I have a feeling of being, of walking along this year pathway as I progressed, right, in my life every day. So I actually have this too. Oh, yeah. Like Patricia, I hadn't ever really thought about it until I stumbled across an article about it a couple of years ago and realized it was a thing. So I don't have the color word type, but I do see time as a kind of oblong circle, a topography that I move along like a roller coaster track. So, okay, so help me understand this. So it's not like you're walking through November 2nd and like everything feels burgundy is more like when she's thinking about the month of November, the image that comes to her mind is a burgundy square. I think that Nate, we might just not be able to entirely grasp. Yeah, I think it might be beyond the realm of my mind to understand this. Yeah, it may just be like, I can hear the word you're saying and yet like when I try and do it myself, I can't conjure it. You know, it's like I don't have this magic ability. That's funny. It's like a superpower. Yeah. And I was curious because the article I read said that time space synesthesia is associated with having a stronger memory. And it turns out that it might actually be true for synesthesia more generally as well. Researchers are still exploring that. But as a total layperson, non-scientists, I do have a hypothesis and it comes from something that Patricia said during her interview about that conversation with her dad about Monday. How could it not look like anything? It's a place. So I guess time is a place. Time is a place. And this made me think about this concept of the memory palace. Have you heard of this? I know a podcast called the Memory Palace. There is a podcast, but different thing. It's a tool for trying to remember things, right? You visualize like a big house with different rooms and you keep different memories in different rooms. Right. And to retrieve them, you visit the room that you want to try to retrieve a memory. Exactly. I think it probably works like a memory palace. Yeah. It's almost like a dream, you know, the way you don't do anything to create your dreams, but yet there they are. They're just, they're very vivid. It's just that this is a kind of dream that's always with me in waking life. So it's just another thing to consider as we think about how diverse the human or the fly or the starfish experience can be. I think the clarifying question I want to ask is like, so humans experience time in this linear fashion, right? So we experience many Mondays, but Mondays are actually completely different days. So someone who has synesthesia, are they returning to the same room every Monday or is it a different room? That can only speak for me, right? Yeah, I think everyone probably has a different conception, but I mean, the week just generally has a topography and I think it will change depending on if I'm excited about something on a specific day or something. But, you know, my view of my life, like I have a topography to my life and my experience of time and what my life looks like has changed since I was a teenager. I imagine if I was a parent, it would change profoundly. So I don't think it would always look the same, you know? Yeah. Like maybe when you're younger, the roller coaster has like really big highs and lows and loop-de-loops, but it starts to straighten out and start to be a little bit more like a railroad track by the end. Yeah. My question is, what does daylight savings time look like? Is it like a gap in the tracks? Oh, shoot! Just really dark, dark day. Or it's kind of like a, I don't know, a train derailment. That's what it feels like. This episode was produced by Felix Poon, Taylor Quimby, Justine Paradis and me, Nate Hedgie. It was edited by Taylor Quimby. I'm the host of Outside In. Rebecca LaVoy is director of On Demand Audio. Our team also includes Marina Hanky and Jessica Hunt. Music in this episode came from Ja-Ri, Isola James, 369, Suedo, the US Army band, Rand Aldo, and Blue Dot Sessions. Our theme music is by Brickmaster Cylinder. Special thanks to Andina Rich and David Brang. Outside In is the production of the New Hampshire Public Radio. I'm gonna slow mine down. 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