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News movement, which found this video or obtained it, they used facial recognition and they said it's 90% likely that it's him, but does that even come close to justifying his murder? Definitely not. And it's pretty sad that this is what they're clinging to right now. Kristi Noem, meanwhile, has been sidelined and borders are Tom Homan, who she's never gotten along with, was dispatched to Minneapolis to clean up and start working with state and local officials. He of course had a little ding at Kristi when he dropped into Minneapolis about how much she loves to live for the photo ops. I didn't come to Minnesota for photo ops or headlines. You haven't seen me. I came here to seek solutions. So I have two guests on the show from slightly different political persuasions, Shannon Joy, who is an independent conservative radio host, and Raymond Kemp, who is a retired US Navy Fleet Master Chief. He was appointed by Biden to the American Battle Monuments Commission. Despite their political differences, they both agree that this was an abuse of power by the Trump administration, and they're demanding that ICE pull back on its operations, even as Trump is just looking for a rhetorical retreat, according to Mark Hudo, our friend from Axios, who had some reporting and was on the show this week. All of this is unfolding against the backdrop of a looming government shutdown, soon as this weekend, over the DHS funding bill, which is legislation that includes money for ICE and other border security agencies. It's part of the larger budget. And now the White House is scrambling about trying to figure out ways to siphon off that part of the funding bill, so that they can vote on that separately so that the government stays open, because the last government shutdown was way too long. And Republicans took the hit for it. After all, they are in charge of the White House and both chambers of Congress. I'd love to get your take on this forum. Who did you agree with? What did you agree with? Should ICE be abolished nationwide? You know, to support this show, though, you can subscribe. I know a lot of you come for the regular Tara Palmieri show, but you're not subscribers. So if you hit that follow, subscribe button, you're helping me stay in business. Of course, you can go to TaraPalmeri.com and sign up for my newsletter, the red letter. Look at my exclusive reporting straight to your inbox. I'm working on an exclusive right now. And so it's well worth that the subscription is how you can support independent journalism like mine. And of course, leave a comment. I'm always interested to hear what you think. Has the news been getting you down? I'm Megan McCartle, and I'm here to help. I'm the host of a news show from Washington Post Opinion called Reasonably Optimistic, and it's an antidote to the pessimism that's riddling America right now. I'm a columnist of the Post, and I've been writing about economics, technology, and public policy for decades now. So every Wednesday, I'm going to talk to people who see a path forward. I'm going to talk to inventors, entrepreneurs, politicians, and, okay, probably some wonky types like me, if I'm being totally honest. Congress to me was a very entrepreneurial place. It's like Shark Tank, but a lot less glamorous. When nerds get rich and powerful, they can't help but get involved in politics. I want to talk about how we can get unstuck and live up to the country's many promises. It does seem to me that there is some awakening of a desire to act together to solve problems where they are. If we believe in this country, it's worth fighting for. Join me Wednesdays on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Shannon, Raymond, thank you so much for joining the show. As our viewers know, you come from two different political spectrums, but everyone seems to have an opinion on what's happened in the past month in Minneapolis. President Trump's deployed thousands of ICE agents and customs and border patrol agents to Minneapolis under Operation Metro Surge. And now, two U.S. citizens have been fatally shot. What do you think about Trump's initial decision to send this operation into Minnesota? And how do you think it's going, Shannon? Well, thank you so much, First and foremost, for having me and providing this forum for some discourse about what's going on in this country, because things just seem so chaotic and out of control. And I know my audience is we're all grappling with what to believe, what not to believe. There are so many images and videos and opinions coming out about what we're seeing in Minneapolis that it's difficult to have a reasonable conversation. So I really commend you for putting this together, and maybe we can all kind of learn from each other today. So I guess I'll just give you my perspective on what I think is going on. In terms of my political alignment, I'm independent. So I started my career 12 years ago kind of on the right and grew up on the right and supporting right-leaning politicians. And after a few years observing culture and politics and electoral cycles, I became more and more convinced, and I'm even more convinced today, that the two-party political system is pretty corrupted. And if you observe the executive orders, the legislation, the actions of... I think most people would agree with you that the parties are pretty much messed up. But I mean, what about this decision though, to send an operation into Minnesota? What do you... How do you think it's going? So that's where my... That's where the... That's a paradigm that I look at this through. I look at an effort by the Trump administration, echoing efforts of other administrations to create chaos in what I believe is a theater. And that you have agents deployed, ICE agents playing one role, and TIPA playing another role. And in the midst of civilians, very real people who are in the middle of this, were having a battle play out. I think the larger agenda of this president is to normalize police state tactics, to normalize the brutalization of U.S. citizens under the guise of executing deportations of illegal immigrants. And I think that's evidenced by the fact that Donald Trump has deported the least number of immigrations of any sitting president in the past 20 years. He is dead last. So to me, the agenda is not deporting illegals. It is using that agenda to justify a crushing of our First Amendment rights, our Fourth Amendment rights, our Fifth Amendment rights to due process, Fourteenth Amendment rights, among others. And also, there are attacking states' rights as well. So we have... We can throw Tenth Amendment in there as well as the federal government seeks to supersede the government of waltz. Now, I think waltz is engaging in the same thing, though. I think that they're working together and it's a little dance. But at the end of the day, the people are losing their rights. Do you think that... Yeah. Do you think that Governor Walz is instigating this, Raymond? I mean, you worked in the Biden administration. I'm sure you had some contact with him. Do you think he's instigating this with James Frey because he's the mayor of Minneapolis because they see it as politically beneficial? I don't think so. Just from my perspective. And I'm really a right-leaning centrist, I guess, technically. Over 30 years in the United States Navy at the highest level of leadership, to me, it is an egregious move to bring those folks into Minnesota, destabilizing their structure there to transform the state's rights and to normalize some of this violence that seems to be happening there. I do not just personal feeling. I absolutely do not think that waltz is working in coordination with the... or even instigating this type of activity because I believe he has a true level of care for the people that are there. And when you care about folks, you don't put them in a situation, you know, in this combat, almost combat situation where there are thugs like ice making their way through the streets and treating people like this. So no, I mean, the short answer for me is no. I don't think that waltz is creating this dance for his own or for his predecessor, or the folks who are going to take over for him for their benefit in the United States. Janet, you said that your followers don't know what to make of it. I think this pretty killing is pretty clear cut. I mean, we've seen the videos, we've seen the pictures. It's pretty clear what happened. Why is... why do people have any sense of ambiguity around it? Well, I can tell you, it was clear cut for me. I think that the killing... I think it was an execution. I mean, I... what we saw in regards to Alex Pretty was an execution. It was horrifying. And there are many people on the right who are taking that opinion, who are saying that the Trump administration has gone too far. But because we are so ideologically divided and politically divide... not ideologically, I would say politically divided in this country, the level of fear that many Republican conservatives and MAGA followers and Trump supporters, the level of fear and anger and anxiety that they have about the illegal immigration situation in the country, leads them to a space where they are angry, they're mad, and they will... and anything is justified in order to finally take care of this situation with illegal immigration. But it... I think it's a... it's a false... it's just a false premise to begin with, because, you know, again, from my perspective, this is not about illegal immigration. And I mean, to Raymond's point, if Tim Walts really cared about the rights of immigrants or illegal immigrants, then he would have been opposing Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and Joe Biden, particularly Barack Obama, because Barack Obama deported the most illegal immigrants. I mean, if you do just a simple analysis of the number of... number of illegal deportations, the Obama administration and the Biden administration rank higher than the Trump administration. Trump is dead last. So... Trump tends to blame the Biden administration for the fact that he has to... that he has to do these raids, Raymond. I mean, he says, you know, if he didn't leave the borders open, then I wouldn't be... I wouldn't have to do this. What do you think about that? Totally? No, I think it's absurd. And to a chance point, if you go back to President Barack Obama, who I serve with while I'm in uniform, then to deport... to get illegal folks out of the United States efficiently and effectively is a responsibility that I wouldn't say rests solely on the shoulders of the president, but it's certainly under their purview. And we want those folks who are here illegally up out of here, particularly those who are the violent criminals and those that it seems like this administration wants to highlight that they're going to get out. But I don't think that... no, I don't think that blaming the previous presidents for his lack of skill and, you know, poor leadership when it comes to managing the deportation or the ex-fill of these illegal immigrants, I think that's a terrible... just a reflection of his poor leadership. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Shannon, do you think... sorry, what were you going to say? No, I would say that, you know, just in response to Raymond, you know, most of the Republicans who consume news and who are kind of in the MAGA coalition or the America First Coalition would be shocked to hear a Democrat or a liberal say, we believe in borders, we believe in rule of law, we believe that illegal immigrants can be deported. And it just goes to the level of propaganda and the level of conditioning that, you know, so many people are getting from mainstream news media sources because... so that's, I guess, to answer your question when you say you ask me, you know, why they would be surprised or, you know, that question about, you know, the right, it's because we're just... they're fed so much disinformation about what is actually going on. And I would say that's on the left as well, though. So I would say we can't have conversations because there is a pipeline of propaganda that feeds directly to the left and there is a pipeline of propaganda that feeds directly to the right. And each one sows just abject fear of the other. It creates a caricature of what it means to be right or left. And that fear then drives that next urge to fix it, have someone fix it, then people fix it on a hero. In this case for MAGA, it's Trump to fix this problem. And they will accept just blatant, horrifying crushing of civil liberties and natural rights in order to fix what they think is perceived. So I think that phenomenon is happening on the left and on the right. And it's why people, when I say people don't know what to make of this, that's why. Because people are having a hard time discerning what is propaganda, what is paid propaganda? Are you an influencer or are you a news person or what is this? Who is supporting your show and what is real? What is a real video and what is a deep fake? I have people who have seen the recent video of Alex Pretti spitting out at ICE agents and kicking that thing. It's important behavior. He probably should have been arrested for that. But people don't even believe it's real. They don't believe it's real. They think it's a deep fake. There are people who don't even believe that the shootings are real. They think that because of AI and technology. So we're just in a very, very bizarre moment in American history. Also, President Trump often says, don't believe the things that you're looking at. I mean, right. And his followers are pretty sycophantic. And you know, Kristi Noem saying he brand the shagun when that clearly wasn't in the video. Do you think that the do you think Kristi Noem should still have a job? Absolutely not. No. I mean, she would be she would fit my definition. I mean, it's interesting to me that the president of the United States today is in for all intents and purposes a reality TV actor. And it is not surprising to me. I mean, Kristi Noem would be the textbook definition in my book of a political actor. So she puts on a 10 gallon hat and 10 pounds of makeup and 10 pounds of hair extensions and goes out and reads her lines to pursue agenda and narrative. And you know, her mission, I think her role within the Republican Party is to acclimate conservatives and Republicans who would never accept digital IDs or, you know, that intrusion into privacy or, you know, if it came from a Democrat administration, I think she is there to to really push and really sell this idea of a digital ID, the tracking and tracing and surveillance of every American using biometrics, and they're going to solve immigration, they're going to solve crime, they're going to solve the border crisis, they're going to solve the rigged elections, every every problem that has been created that the right faces, they want to use just the expansion of the surveillance state and this in this case, digital ID. So I would love to see Kristi Noem fired and, you know, let them let them hire another, you know, political actor to try to pimp this to the American people, particularly the right, because it's just, you know, it's it's horrifying. Well, the digital ID technically started under Biden, right, Raymond? Yeah, I don't remember the exact origin, but I do think so. And there's some value, there is some value, but to Shannon's point, there is so much political theater that's going on and there's so much noise between the two. You know, I remember a time when my perspective was that politics was politics was a talent show. And now it's just a popularity contest. And so unfortunately, because we don't have a high level of talent with the measure of news reporting and truth and trust that we can apply, we have this chaotic theater, this chaotic political theater that we are in right now. So many people who are looking to sow that measure of discourse, so many people who are looking to create and destabilize what should be community, that it is, it's frustrating. And so I say that to say that the great value that comes in the digital ID and some of the technology that we really need to track and trace things that are happening here in the United States. And as we go abroad, unfortunately, it gets lost in the noise. Yeah, Raymond, what do you think about the fact that a lot of Trump's allies, the thing that bothers them the most isn't so much the killing of Freddie, it's the fact that he had a gun. And I'm talking about like the NRA, Marjorie Taylor-Grain, like, do you think they're focused on the right issue? We're certainly focused on the wrong issue when those who claim to support the Second Amendment are complaining about the fact that he had a weapon. I believe that when we carry weapons, and I have a license to carry, I do carry periodically. I certainly believe in defending my home. And I think that when we're concerned about a Second Amendment right that so many of their peers are celebrating and want to fight for, the fact that anyone brings that up in this instance is really absurd. Based on the video that I have seen, there was no indication that he was a threat based on his weapon or without it. Shannon, do you think that this is like, that people are too obsessed with the Second Amendment angle rather than just seeing it as a killing and cold blood on the side of the road? Like, why is this turned into a Second Amendment issue? I'll go back to, I believe that Trump is on the same side as the Democrats, and the Democrats are on the same side as Trump, right? So if you look at gun control legislation, executive orders, and executive actions and memorandums, and you look at the last four or five presidents, again, you rank them in terms of how much gun control they have pushed forward, you'll find that Donald Trump is at the top of the list. He's right under Joe Biden, and he has passed more gun control than Barack Obama, more gun control initiatives than Bill Clinton, and then also the previous two Republican presidents as well. So if you look at the narrative of MAGA, it's not a conservative movement. Trump is not a conservative person. He's not even necessarily a Republican. He is looking, one of his major agendas is to acclimate, again, you got to think of it in terms of Trump is there as a Trojan horse to acclimate a traditional population of people who would never, ever accept restrictions on their Second Amendment rights. So when they begin to talk about the Second Amendment, and it's critical, I mean, what astounded me about the right in their discussion, the discourse on the gun, was that there were big voices on the right that were, you know, criticizing this guy for carrying a concealed weapon and saying, you should never carry a concealed weapon to a protest. Trump even said that himself. So the, the point was Kyle written house and it was cool. Exactly. Exactly. But regardless of what the rhetoric is, what do we get? The right now has a narrative and Trump needs to now fix something in terms of Second Amendment, which is again, another suppression of our constitutional rights. So he ushers in essentially, you know, I see these two parties working in tandem with each other. And each one has a reason to restrict the natural rights and constitutional rights and sovereignty of American citizens. And they both the parties play their role. So here you just have a situation where Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tom Massey and Rand Paul and Ron Paul, and some of the, the loudest voices in opposition to Donald Trump are coming in and say, saying, Hey, whoa, why are you guys talking about taking the guns and restricting people's rights to carry firearms? You're supposed to be conservative. You're supposed to be Republican. But that's the role of Trump. He's to, you know, moving the paradigm, shifting the, the, the overton windows, so to speak, to the left or I wouldn't, I shouldn't even say left because what is left right anymore, but towards a more totalitarian, centralized, invasive government apparatus that is completely untethered from our constitution and our founding principles. Well, I have a question. Why is everyone, why were Republicans not as upset about Renee Good, but they are upset about Alex Pretty? Is it just because he had a gun on him? I mean, they didn't seem to care when it was Renee Good. I did. I'm not a Republican, but yeah, I mean, I guess I am considered to be on the right. That's how I got started in all of this. But can you channel them for us so we can at least understand it? Can you try to the whisperer? Yeah, please. Why don't they care about, you know, Renee Good as much as they care about Alex Pretty? I'm not sure. I don't think they cared about Renee Good as well. I don't know. I mean, they didn't care about Renee Good. Why do they care more about Alex Pretty's death than Renee Good's? What is the difference between the two? Well, I guess you're talking about people on the right who are going up against the MAGA PSYOP. So the right is an interesting, it's an interesting grouping right now. You have the right, which is Trump, MAGA, Republicans, conservatives, the entire apparatus of conservative media. So Fox News, Blaze, Daily Wire, all of the media partners. And then you have these psycho influencers. Do you think it's because she was a lesbian and like, you know, wasn't carrying a gun and this guy was ICU nurse who worked at a VA hospital. That's why it didn't fit the profile for them. I have no idea. Like that's something that I can't, like they, none of the Republicans care about any of this if they are tethered to Trump. So if they're in the cult of Trump, Trump could perform abortions on the desk in the Oval Office and the right wouldn't care. They wouldn't because they are, they are so imprinted on this man as the savior for every problem. And they are so propagandized to fear Democrats and liberals and anyone on the left. Outside of that group, there are all kinds of Republicans who are too afraid to speak up, because if you speak up against Trump, you're smashed, which I was totally blackballed. I've never been, I've never been in any Republican media circles primarily because I have critiqued Trump since the day he came down the escalator. So there are a whole population of Republicans who are terrified of speaking out. And so they won't say anything. And then you have a few Republicans that will take, you know, people like Massey and Marjorie Taylor Greene that will say something that is so blatantly outrageous. Maybe the video of Alex Pretty was just indefensible. Maybe they could cling to the fact that Renee Good's, you know, her, you know, car clipped the officer. And so then it was justified. The video wasn't as good. But then when you have this situation where it's just blatant, it's an execution, it's 10 shots, he was not posing a threat. He was illegally carrying a firearm, all the things. I think that that peels off a certain layer of Republican, Republican like Tom Massey, who is more responsive to his constituents and his supporters than he is to Trump. So you got to separate the Republican party into those factions in order to understand, I think, why some of them. The way I see it, it's, you know, I'm, I am heartened by the fact that more Republicans are critiquing Trump. He needs to be impeached in my opinion. I mean, I think that he's horrifying. So do you think that ICE agents should be pulled from all the cities? Like, do you believe in abolish ICE? Spring's Blooming at Starbucks. A new season calls for new discoveries like our iced uber vanilla matcha latte, smooth, creamy and nutty balanced with notes of vanilla. It's a treat for the eyes too with vibrant lilac hues to brighten your spring mood. Hot or iced, there are so many ways to love this stunning serve. Uber vanilla, pouring now at Starbucks. Subject to availability while stocks last. I, yeah, that's a larger question like abolish ICE, the agency, they, they, what they are doing in Minnesota is illegal, immoral, unconstitutional, abhorrent, grotesque. It's, it is reminiscent of, of the Gestapo and, and the brown shirts in Nazi. It's, it's the most, one of the most horrifying things I have ever witnessed. So there certainly needs to be a national discussion, a review. They absolutely should not be deployed in that manner in any town or village across the country. So I'm not sure how we fix this. I mean, we, I think we need to get out of it first. We need to smash the narrative and encourage enough conservative conservatives and Republicans who still love our constitution to speak up and speak out against it and we need to end it now. But I don't think that we should forget the fact that, that Walt is playing a role in this as well though. And Tifa is playing a role. I mean, when, when you see that if they're going out and agitating and, and stoking up. But isn't that just first amendment that what Ann Tifa is doing? If it is Ann Tifa? I mean, how do we really know it's Ann Tifa? I don't know. I mean, I think spitting and then, and then kicking a car, I mean, defacing property or kicking a light out would be something that, that you shouldn't do. I would say putting your body in between an agent. But see, ICE's jurisdiction is questionable, to be honest. It's very muddy. It's very muddy. I mean, these are conversations that we should be having that we cannot have because it, everyone has gone into their camps and Alex Pretty was as clean as the wind driven snow and, you know, on one side and ICE, you know, was it within their jurisdiction on the other side? So do you think that Democrats should refuse to pass the budget that includes DHS funding and sort of going to a government shutdown? Yes. Do you agree, Raymond? What do you think? I do. I think there's got to be some consequences and repercussions. There has got to be a environment created where there is solid conversation about how ICE is deployed. I think, I think the language of defunding and shutting down and closing and getting rid of is kind of extreme. We certainly need a measure of immigration control. The way it's being done to Shannon's point is absolutely horrific. And by no means should they be deployed in the way that they have been through various different cities across our nation. And so when it comes down to how do we create the environment, if we have to threaten shutting down the government, if we have to create this urgent environment for a conversation to take place, it says a few things. It says a lot regrettably about the political theater that we're in right now and people stoking fires for their own benefit. But it also says that these political actors are not legitimately and intentionally caring for the people that they are representing. Much less are they representing them. And so there's a lot of worries right there, but I think yes. I think they should refuse to sign that threat of the shutdown to force a solid, useful conversation. And let's take and do that before and we have no evidence that that's possible. Yeah. So what do you think, given the loss of U.S. lives nationwide protests, what should be the core principle for ICE going forward? Is it security? Is it civil rights or is it something else? You can start with it if you want. Amen. Yeah, I think that the core principle principles for ICE should lay in something like core values, honor, courage, and commitment. I think if we land on those three core values that have been touted by United States Navy, United States Marine Corps for years and years, those three simple words will create a space where the folks who are intentional about immigration concerns are able to move out in a way that's treating our citizens and those who are here with dignity and respect. And then that creates a space that the American people couldn't get behind that. When we understand how it's being done, why it's being done, and the fact that it's being done in a way that is protective to the United States citizens as well as treating those folks who may have came here to escape political harassment from their country, but treating them with dignity and respect, I think that's absolutely the way that we should go. But do you think Shannon has a way to end this? I think, yeah, I think certainly if we could, we might not be able to have nice things right now in this country because we can't, but if we could have a discussion about ICE, I would like to see a challenge to the jurisdiction and authority of ICE. I am uncomfortable with the fact that they are in plaguing clothes. I am uncomfortable with the level of training that they are getting. I'm uncomfortable with the benefits and the cash bonuses they're receiving in order, I think it attracts some of the worst of the worst. I'm uncomfortable with the masking as a woman who also a concealed carry pistol permit holder here in New York State. That frightens me, the idea that plainclothes, masked goons can come and rip me out of my car at any given time for any reason because they have some suspicion that I might be illegal or something. I would like to see a full conversation on that, but I also believe that this use, clearly is being purposefully provocative and violent. I don't understand that. I don't understand who's giving the orders to go and antagonize and shove around and push around and just act in general like a bunch of thugs. I don't know where those orders come from. That makes me very skeptical and critical of the organization as a whole, how that's allowed to happen. If we want to control illegal immigration in this country, there are so many very non-sexy, very simple things that we can do from a jurisdictional perspective where you take away some of the incentives, you make sure that the border is actually closed. You actually defend the border. You don't let them come over, which we've done. We've opened up the border in both Democrat and Republican administrations where they're just pouring over. We're not doing anything about it. Taking away the subsidies and the benefits, free food, free housing, free clothing, free education, free healthcare, like all of these things, I think that many that come over here, if they simply had a way to get back home, they knew that those benefits were going to end at some point and there were some type of incentives would probably naturally deport themselves. They would do so voluntarily. Then I think if we stop agitating, we're going down into some of these countries and creating situations that are violent and unstable and then handing these people tickets, planes, trains, and automobiles to come over here telling them that you're going to have a refugee status, you're going to have all these benefits. I mean, both of our political parties are creating the problems that they're seeking to solve with these new enforcement agencies. If the government were doing its job in the first place and building a common sense immigration system and reasonable ways to enforce that system that do not involve violence, which they don't have to, then we wouldn't have these problems in the first place. But our government, they are the arsonists and also the firefighters and that's what they do. They start the fires, they create the problems, and then they come in with a bigger and worse government solution every single time. Unfortunately, it's a bipartisan thing from my perspective. I'd like to see conversations opened up to those areas rather than all of the chaos all of the time and then these extreme solutions from the parties. Thank you both for your time. That was very exhaustive. We'll see if anyone takes those great ideas that you have and helps the country move forward. But thank you both and I hope you guys have a great day. All right. Appreciate you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Raymond. Thank you. That was another episode of the Tara Palmieri show. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you like the show, please subscribe. Like, rate, follow, share it with your friends. Go to TaraPalmeri.com. That's T-A-R-A-P-A-L-M-E-R-I.com. Sign up for my newsletter, the red letter. You'll get my exclusive reporting straight to your inbox by becoming a paid subscriber. Get the exclusives and you can support my independent journalism. I want to thank my producer, Eric Robbenate. I want to thank Abby Baker on the socials and research. Adam Stewart shows my graphics and Dan Rosen, my manager. See you again soon. Hi, I'm Tamsen Fidel, journalist and author of How to Menopause and host of the Tamsen show, a weekly podcast with your roadmap to midlife and beyond. We cover it all from dating to divorce, aging to ADHD, sleep to sex, brain health, the body fat, and even how perimenopause can affect your relationships. And trust me, it can. 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