Debt-Free Doesn’t Mean Wealthy… Here’s the Truth

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Hey y'all, it's Lauren Moroza with the latest with Lauren Moroza on Black Effect. And I cannot wait to see you guys at the fourth annual Black Effect podcast recipe. We are coming back to Atlanta, Georgia on Saturday, April 25th at Pullman Yards. And it's hosted by me alongside DJ Envy and Charlotte Mayne the God. We got Drink Chance with Noriega and DJ Effing. We got Keep It Positive, sweetie, with my girl. Crystal Renee Hayslett. We got Reality with the King, with my guide and my brother, Carlos King. Y'all know he does reality commentary like nobody can. Now we also have Don't Call Me Right Girl, the podcast. I love Mona and Club 520 Podcasts along with the Grits and Eggs podcast. So this lineup, stacked baby. You're also going to want to check out the panels that we have lined up to featuring Kev on stage, Tika Sumter and John Hope Bryant, just to name a few. Of course, it's way bigger than the podcast. We're bringing the Black Effect Marketplace with Black on Businesses, plus the food truck court to keep you fed while you visit us. OK, listen, you don't want to miss this. Tap in and grab your ticket now at blackaffect.com slash podcast festival. Welcome to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant, a production of the Black Effect podcast network and I Heart Radio. Yo, yo, yo, this is John Hope Bryant and this is the Money and Wealth podcast series season three on I Heart Radio and the Black Effect Network. And I want to thank everybody for making the podcast, the NWCP Image Award nominated podcast and one of the top 50 for entrepreneurship in the country and top 200 on every continent in the world, not for people of color, for everyone and the get, you know, when I have a guest on it, as you know, it's very rare that these are outliers. These are unique leaders. These are people who bring something. Well, more than I can bring myself. And so you're going to get a treat today because I'm going to shut up and let you listen to somebody who I think brings a great deal of wisdom and perspective and to be really blocked before I read her bio to you. She's not playing a game with you. I'd say something else if I was, but I know children were listening, but she's she's not playing a game. I just drives me nuts. All these people out here and it's Tiffany, by the way, you know, there's the budget, the budgetista, as you know, or Tiffany, the budgetista, which is a beautiful branding for her. But I also don't even want that. That sounds a little. Entertainment is a little sort of slickish. I don't want you to think even with that, that she's not in any way in every way, substantive. You'll hear again, I read her bio. She's incredibly credentialed and she volunteered at our Hope Global Forum just recently with my friends from Pink Deer in December of 2025 did an extraordinary job. Couldn't walk down a hallway. After that, without being mobbed in a positive way. But there's so many people out here playing games on the internet, lying straight into the camera. Talk about money. They don't have experiences. They never they've never gained companies that never run investments that are telling you to do that they've never engaged in. Talk about a million, two million, five million, all this money that they've never had. Talk about incomes. Don't marry somebody. They haven't seen it or received it or felt it. I mean, I just just drives me nuts and they give me bad advice. And so if I put my arms around somebody, if I point to somebody to the best of my knowledge, know that I have vetted them and think that they are straight up legit. And of course, the New York Times made her book of New York Times bestseller. And again, let me just read her bio. Tiffany is known to millions as the budgetista is one and she's one of America's most trusted voices in personal finance. She's an award winning financial educator, a New York Times bestselling author of get good with money. And the founder of a movement that has been has helped literally made my wife loves her by the way, Shaitra, a million. It's helped more than a million women save, manage and transform their financial lives. Now she's helped women, but it'll help you too. If you're a man, if you're a man, if you're a Martian, it'll help you. If your Martian has come to America, he didn't want our financial system. You need to talk to Tiffany. Tiffany has made financial education practical, empowering and accessible for everyday people. And her impact has reached from living rooms to classrooms, including helping to inspire people to learn about their financial system. She's also been featured by major national outlets, including the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Time Today, the day show, and Good Morning America. And she also is academically credentialed. And I'll let her walk you through all the nine zillion licenses and credentials that she has gained, the ones that she thinks are real. And she's also been featured by the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the New York Times, the New York Times, the New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal. And she has gained the ones that she thinks are relevant for this conversation. I saw her recently with Earn Your Leisure, Earn Your Leisure guys, and she said something that pleasantly surprised me, because she got it completely right. She said that people keep talking about, oh, I want to be debt free. And she's, you know, my little cousin's debt free. You know, that don't mean nothing. He's broke. And she would say her little cousin, I'd say Pookie and them. You guys don't mean anything. I'm not Pookie and them syndrome in my head. But being debt free means nothing if you have no income stream. If you have no, in fact, I'll flip that and I'll challenge her to talk me, to say I'm just stupid and wrong. But I say you don't want, it's not that you don't want debt. You don't want bad debt. You don't want stupid debt. You don't want silly debt. In fact, there's no millionaire, multimillionaire, billionaire, city, state, county, government that didn't do it without good debt. And there's no university, no company that didn't do it on the back of good debt. So you want to tie it to something that appreciates not something that depreciates. And that was the point she was making on, on earn your leisure. It was a point where very well made. Ladies and gentlemen, I bring to you the budget Easter. Welcome to. Thank you, John. And yeah, I'm actually going that clip is probably like, I don't know, five years old. I guess it's like recirculating, but I'm going, I'm going back on in a few weeks with Tori and Rashad. But yes, I will say that people were eating me up about that. Oh, well debt freedom is better than nothing. Here's the thing that the, the joke I make is that my nephew, Roman is debt free. He doesn't have a car and a student loans mortgage, but Roman is broke because Roman's 10 years old. Right. And that debt freedom is not the goal that certainly it can be a goal. That's what you want on your way to building wealth. And that's the mistake that a lot of people make is that, that debt freedom by itself is not enough to grow the kind of life that you want financially because our, our, our, our children are debt free and so, you know, and there are people who have a bunch of debt and still have wealth for themselves. So yes, I, that is something that I've leaned into even though people fight me on. I get it. Nobody wants to be burdened by credit card debt, but I myself, so I have four properties now, two of them, I kind of, I wasn't expecting to purchase, but they were such good deals last year. They came within the same week of each other. And I remember thinking, hmm, I could pay for these, these homes in cash, but I really think I don't want to pull any money out of the market. And also too, I didn't want to incur, you know, I didn't want to miss out on whatever, whatever growth I might have in the market. So I did what's called, well, my bank calls a pledge asset line, which essentially I bar against myself, which is the bank, the bank of Tiffany. Yes. But that essentially is debt. And so I borrowed against myself. Is it a margin account? Is it a bar? Yeah. A margin line against your portfolio. Yeah. So before, before, let's, let's, let's hold on a minute. Cause you, you already gone deep into the well as good financial literacy. Let's stop from, given that we're both black, we can both have this conversation bluntly with our audience. Let's say what no one ever tells our people. One of the reasons that people say that, and I was just with a, a very successful person last week who said, I just want to pay off my house. And I was saying, no, you want to keep a mortgage on that house. If you're going for that loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan loan And then Jim Crow, that game does, you had conflict listing that game does. And now- Redlining. Yeah, redlining that game does. And then you have fraudsters and folks just trying to separate with your wallet on a regular basis. And even if you spoke showing up at the church, I mean, that might have gamed you or people you saw at grandma or grandpa, you saw them like lose everything. And so we just paranoid. And then we get in the market the last time, 2008 crisis probably was the most traumatic. Because we got these adjustable rating mortgages, UGG. We had a negative amortization mortgage, UGG. You had Wall Street, who people protect, who people, I thought they could trust, who were trying to put a postman in a mini mansion. And it's not gonna ever work out well. So we all, now I'm off of real estate. No, no, no, don't be off of real estate. Be off of stupid decisions. Because nobody gave me a bad mortgage in 2008 because I wasn't gonna take it. So we're traumatized. Yes. And that's why we don't want debt. We don't want any risk. And so let's deal with the trauma, the drama. Let's deal with our low self-esteem, our insecurities, our fears. Let's address those head on. Get our hands around it. She's about to educate you now. Now we're gonna, because she doesn't have a self-esteem problem. Like you can, Well, I did for a long time. I'm good to that. But we, like I'm not vouching for her. I'm saying I read people very well. She has confidence and she has acquired self-esteem. I love that she said she didn't, she did have a self-esteem problem that everybody can relate to that. And those who know my story, y'all is homeless. So from broke to blueprint, the comeback story, Tiffany, you lost your teaching job, got scammed out of tens of thousands of dollars, ended up moving back home with your parents all while sitting on a master's degree. Walk us through that low point. In the moment you decided to turn your mess into a message. So, John, I was fortunate. I grew up in a household where money was talked about all the time. My father has, yeah, his master's in economics, his bachelor's in finance. My mother was a nurse with her master. So my dad literally, I'm one of five girls. And I think he really worried about making sure his girls could take care of themselves. So he would do the academics when it came to money. Literally, this is how you invest. This is how you, this is what credit is. And my mom was more, that actual applied knowledge, like now let's go food shopping. And I'm gonna show you how to do that. And here's how you negotiate. Like anybody, if you're buying a car in our household, you bring my mother, she's the best negotiator. Right? So I had that growing up, and I listened to them up until like my mid-20s. And then that's when I decided, as the old folks say, you're smelling yourself. And so I decided, I was grown and I didn't have to take their advice anymore, despite all that education. And I started making financial decisions and not running it by these experts that had lived through it, successfully raising five girls, sending us all to college and paying for it. And so I bought a condo, I was 25, I was really proud of myself. I put my down payment down. I was still teaching preschool. I taught preschool for 10 years. It's making like 39, between $30,000 to $50,000 a year, depending when I started. And then I saved $35,000. I put my down payment down. Then at 26, I got my master's in education. Then at 27, 28, I fell victim to a credit card scam with a friend who told me to take money off of my credit card and invested with him. He promptly ran away and there I was. Now, all of a sudden, in the span of a few years, I owe $50,000, because I had to pay for my master's myself, in student loan debt, 220,000. Or my- Well, slow down. These messages all in here. You didn't say a stranger. No, a friend. Now, by the way, friend and quotation marks, because clearly with friends like that, they don't need enemies. No, yeah, he, yeah. So we save our worst behavior for those we care the most about, right? Nobody curses out homeless people because homeless people don't care, right? So Tiffany got scammed. You're gonna get scammed if you get scammed in all likelihood by somebody who knows you. Somebody's gonna come into you with some crazy deal that under guys, it's supposedly they love you. But to quote Bill President, Bill Clinton, it's hard to get somebody to agree to the truth when the lie is paying their paycheck. So to rationalize is to tell rational lies. So Tiffany just gave you a lesson here in the midst of her lesson that watch every angle coming at you. Because just because somebody's related to you doesn't mean they have your best interests at hand. Okay, back to you, Tiffany. And so I should have known it was a scam, but I was in my 20s. And so, because the terms were too favorable. But the house always wins. Like I was literally just in Vegas. I don't gamble, but I was there for a conference. And I just remember seeing all the people lined up to give away their money. And I thought the house always wins. And so I had the credit card debt, 35,000. The student loans, 50,000. And my mortgage, 220,000. And I purchased in 2007, 2008. So right before the crisis. And then I thought the first domino that fell was the scammer ran away with my money and I couldn't find him. And now I had to pay off this credit card debt. But at first I didn't want to. I was just paying the minimum because I told myself I'm gonna find him. He's gonna pay me. I did, I didn't. You found him yet? He's in jail now. Everyone saw I was looking up his name and his very unique name. And I looked him up and I said, wow, he tried to scam the federal government. And so I caught up with him. I was not his only victim, but so he is currently sitting in federal jail, which I'm like, eh, eh. Anyway. We should go visit him and sign a copy of the book and deliver it. I know. And so that was the first domino. So finally, when I decided like a year into like me having to pay that debt, I said, Tiffany, you're working, just buckle down. You know, how to budget, you know how to save, just pay off this debt. And then I found out my school, which was nonprofit based, lost their funding during the recession. And they said, we're closing. So now I owe all this debt. I have no income. It's the new school year. And if you're a teacher, you know that September, you're at least likely to get hired because everyone, the classrooms are full. They have to have teachers in the beginning of the school year. And so I just remember thinking, what do I do now? I owe all this money. I owe my mortgage. I can't afford it. And so I was fortunate. This is not the case for so many, but my parents still lived in New Jersey where I lived. And I moved back home. I was 29 going on 30 by then. And it was a humbling experience because my parents are very, are immigrant parents straight from Nigeria, which means even though you're 29, you're like 19. Right. And so the rules were the rules. They were like, what? You have 12 midnight. You better be in this house. So they were not playing. Yes. And so it was really hard. But it was then that I said, if I can lose a job teaching, there is no safe job. So what if I bet on myself instead of letting someone else decide? And that's when I decided I said, you know what? I was already kind of teaching financial education. I used to volunteer at different nonprofits the United Way and churches, the YMCA, because I taught, I love teaching and I learned so much about money from home. And I said, well, what if I start teaching? And I started the budget needs to first year made like, I don't even know, negative amount. Cause I think I was still on unemployment second year, like $12,000 for the whole year. It took me like, are we, we hear about all the people who make a million dollars the first month? No, it took me five years to make six figures, my first six figures. And that's gross. I remember my take home in that fifth year was what I used to make as a preschool teacher. So it took me five years just to get my income back as a preschool teacher. And in that five years. Normal for business, by the way, three to five years mature. Exactly. So by then I was like staying with my sister, staying with a friend. I mean, I was, this is in my 30s. I was on a kid. And then year six, I went from six figures to my first seven figure year because of cumulative knowledge. And then during the pandemic, we had our first eight figure year, you know? And so it just really grew and so did our audience. I mean, I, you know, to teach financial education really is a privilege and a pleasure because people stop me all the time, whether it's TSA, whether they're like, Tiffany, we're reading your book collectively, like as a group. Like I get stopped by the women at TSA all the time, whether it's, you know, at the Whole Foods or Shop Right or whatever, people stop me. That, and what I'm seeing now because I've been doing it for 16 years now is generational. So I get the mama and the daughter and the son. And so it's just been amazing. But what I'm seeing is that people, just people in general, they want to do better, but sometimes they have that, they don't have the access to align, culturally align financial education. Like just say it to me, regular is what people usually say to me. And so that's what, that's the premise of my business. How can I get you to access the financial education so you can change your life on your choice? And there's also a little bit of a boost that you got from, I have Africa on my bracelet here. This is Mandela's prison number, I wear it every day. But the fact that you're from, your parents are from Nigeria, which are some of the most entrepreneurial, high confidence and high self-esteem people on the planet. So much more than that. Yeah, high self-esteem people. People on the planet. And I did a whole video on how African-Americans and African-Caribbeans and African-Africans are the same but different. And the African-American experience, we were, as I said earlier, our self-esteem was beaten down. And even though we are the role models for the world on aspirational success because we did this in the biggest economy on the planet, America, we still suffer an unhealed soul. And so those who come from the Caribbean and come from Africa, theoretically, don't have as much of that burden because either it was Caribbean and it wasn't the kind of slavery that soul your soul, their families were still nuclear families in the Caribbean, even though they were enslaved or kept together. That was different, that was not in America. And of course, African, it's all about family. And so I wanna just underscore the benefit you're seeing here, you're witnessing here, the benefit of the value of family. I was talking to Bishop T.D. Jakes this morning and he was concerned, hopeful but concerned about the decreasing rates of marriage and nuclear families in the black community. And he said, John, this affects your economics. Yeah. This affects your self-esteem, this affects your ability to heal, this affects stability, this affects all these things. And valuing also the father valuing the wife and the wife valuing the husband, the two plus two equals six, eight or 10, you bet it together. It seemed like those things were present in your house. More than I knew, John, the first time I went to Nigeria, I was 21, my dad flew us all out like we'd been saving. And my mom, my dad, all my sisters, we went to Nigeria. It was my grandparents 50th wedding anniversary. So he said, everybody was going back to the village. My grandparents on mine, because both of my father's parents had passed. So on my mother's side, my grandparents were still alive and they were celebrating their 50th. So all her sisters and brothers were coming to the village and my dad said, this is a great time for y'all to go to Nigeria for the first time. So we went and so my last name is Aliche, which is like Aliche, which means people of the earth in Ibo, like an old Ibo. So the first time in America, if I mean Aliche, it's my sister or like my mom or dad. That's it. I have, I think like one, like I think I've got one aunt and one uncle maybe. But so I'm going, so Nigeria we land, we drive the many, many hours to the village. And my dad is introducing us as we're walking through this beautiful village. And oh, this is Samson Aliche. I was like, oh, Sam, I'm Aliche too. They're like, yes. Oh, this is Sylvia Aliche. Oh, I'm Aliche too. This is Chukro Aliche. Then my dad looked at me, he said, Tiffany, or Adochee really is my Ibo name, which means get from God. He said, Adochee, everyone here is Aliche. I didn't, I said, I don't understand. He said, the village is extended family. That's it. Literally every single person that you run into here is connected to you by blood. I did not know that. And he said, that village over there, everyone there is your mother's people. They all have the same last name. And when I saw your mother and I thought she was beautiful and I wanted to get to know her, our village elders had to get together and talk through our lineage to make sure there was no overlap before we were allowed to date and court each other, for him to court her. I remember thinking that is the power here. Everyone here is Aliche. I'll never forget that. And so that's what you're saying. Your self-esteem just exploded. Your sense of agency just exploded. Your sense of belonging just exploded. Your inner wealth began to really generate because you're like, I am somebody. I mean, this is royalty here. Rude. Yes. I mean, it's unbelievable the boost that that is. And people, African-Americans don't understand what we are missing by not reconnecting back to our African roots. And another friend of mine told me, and I agree with him, blacks have to become the Africa with Jews are to Israel, a resource. But you can't do that. You can't give anybody something you don't have yourself. I can't love you unless I love myself. I can't feel good about you unless I feel good about myself. But a lot of it has to do with healing and reconnection. And that experience you had, I think is still breathing through you today. It is. It is. Because I was born here in Jersey. Like I was born in Newark. I live in Newark. So my experience was African-American. African-American. Yes. It was African at home and black every place else. Like home, we still would go to festivals and things. Like my parents made sure at home that we got as close as they could recreate for us to have an African upbringing. But no, I'm black. I'm a black girl. I'm Tiffany. My friends, I learned to play double dutch and jump double dutch. And I didn't quite learn how to play spades well, because I can't sit at nobody's table. They're like, no. To be. I played the dozens as a kid. I grew up in the 80s. I'm an 80s baby. So yeah, so I say all that to say that, like, yes. I believe I've gotten the best of both worlds. And so because my dad would say, you could say what you want about America, but he would say, honestly, if I ask him, well, why did you come here? And he said, this is one of the few countries in this world where you can actually make your dreams come true. Opportunity. He said, I can work really hard in Nigeria, do everything right and get my degrees. Nigerians are some of the most agreed. They are actually the most agreed people in the world. They did a study. And yet so many of my cousins are farmers because there is no opportunity. That's right. But here, if you are willing to put the work in, even with all the discrimination, everything that we know, you still at least have the possibility for success here because there are ways around it. There's some places where there are no ways around it. There's just no opportunity. So we're going to go in an unexpected but very, very important corner of the universe of thought here for a second. One of the reasons America is so successful, in spite of all of her challenges and insecurities and capitalism and democracy in America are horrible systems and places, except for every other system in place. And one of the reasons that America is so successful is it inspired or triggered or lit a fire of these rare dreamers all around the world. Nigeria, South Africa, South America, all the way to places in Asia, Europe, all these different places, who said, I have a dream. I have an ambition. I want to be successful. And I'm not going to just sit here and wait for this to happen. I'm going to go to where I have the greatest highs. And I'm playing train, automobile, boat, ship, no money. But what it takes for somebody to transport themselves from comfort to risk is unprecedented self-esteem and confidence. And so you magnetize all those people. All economy is the collection of economic energy. You magnetize all those people in one place. How do you not create the largest economy on the planet? And that's that freedom thing that America was advertising. And everybody got it, but black people got on the wrong boat after Americans. But that freedom thing really was its original advantage. And so her father is a living and mother who are living examples of what I talk about. And I didn't know the backstory, but it lines up perfectly. And when I say that marriage did not originally come from romance, it didn't really come from religion. It came from two families or villages or people with resources saying, how do we protect? How do we grow the name, the lineage? How do we grow the assets? And then, hey, do you guys like each other? That's important. And of course, we added spirituality. God is added spirituality on this, endowed it 3,000 years ago. But the village had to come together about her and her mother. It was two different villages. They had to have a conversation. And that is thousands of years old. And she's the benefit of that. And I could see it in her eyes without knowing her story, her backstory. And that's a supercharger. And so if you can relate to this story, know that you have, whether you're African-African, African-Caribbean, or you're African-American, and you've been going over and around it through it. And now you can get to it because in spite of everything else, still you're the most successful black people on the planet. Yes. Her father's trying to get to you. So know that you can do it. And she's a living, and her parents are living examples. Why don't you tell, say your mother and father's name out loud so that we can put in the history books. So Sylvia Aliche is my mother. And Ironde Aliche is my father. Yeah, it was beautiful. Your self-esteem, you said it wasn't always great. Yes. Well, I met financial self-esteem because of all that. I had what I call post-traumatic broke syndrome. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Post-traumatic broke syndrome. I love that. I struggled. So certainly I had self-esteem like so many young girls. Like I used to hate that I was dark skinned because I grew up in the 80s when everyone would be like, I used to, like I mean, I have locks now and I love my hair. But I used to hate the texture of my hair because the 80s were for light and wavy and curly that that's what, that's what if you were going to be. There's a brown bag, that's a Louisiana? Yes, and so. You can see the darker than the brown bag, and it wouldn't let you in the party. Exactly. So I, you know, but with time and age, those things tend to melt away. And I don't feel that way at all anymore. I love the way. People are less stupid about that today. Yeah. And I, you know, I, plus it was not nearly as important, but I, you know, I, when I look at myself, I see my dad, I see my mom. I see my, my people, you know, when I went to Nigeria, and I'm like, oh, look at my great grandmother was still alive. She was 102. And I could see myself. And I remember thinking, looking at her hair, I'm like, it curls like mine. Is that where I got it from? And so those helped me to be like, girl, don't worry about what these people say in, in, in middle school and high school and whatever. But the post traumatic broke syndrome was harder to get over because I had made those mistakes as an adult. And so well into my deep into my thirties, I'm 46 now. I still was carrying around, what if I, now that I'm making decent money and I'm starting to grow, and especially when I, at 37, I officially became like a millionaire asset wise. And then by like 40, it was like, oh, I actually see a million dollars in the bank. Like, okay. And so, but I was terrified because of the mistakes I made in my twenties, that I would do something to trigger the downfall of my finances. And so I moved so conservatively. I left a lot of money on the table. And I did what you said, like I, I own four homes. So my first two properties, I bought cash because of that fear. Right. I said, oh, no, no, no, y'all not going to have four clothes on this. Right. And I remember I have, I have a certified financial planner, Anjali, she's amazing. And she was like, girl, put that money in the bucket. And I knew, I knew logically what she was saying was right. But emotionally, I was terrified of being broke again or someone taking my property. So the first two I bought cash or first three, because I had bought something from the city, but that was like $10,000. And then, but the last two that I purchased last year, I was, I'm finally beyond that. So I was like, girl, we're not doing that. Let the money grow in the market. I purchased these two properties. They're already up. Newark is one of the fastest going to real estate places in the country. I'm so fortunate. And so already, like the condo that I'm living in now, I purchased it like two years ago for five, 20. It's already worth eight, 20. Like that's how quickly real estate is growing here. And so like, but, you know, so I understand the shame. I understand the fear. I understand that. But you have to work through it. And the key to working through those things is sometimes it might mean working with somebody, you know? You know, that's why you've got like, you know, what you do, John, like, is there, are there places I can go to sit with someone to share, this is where I am. This is where I want to be. I don't know how to get there, you know? And so let me say something now for the audience's sake. And it may not be, maybe obvious, may not be obvious. Before we got on camera, she was, she was telling me saying that she's starting a financial literacy program herself. She asked one, a teaching one. She's starting a curriculum and she said, well, you know, in addition to what you're doing, no, we need it in addition to what I'm doing. We need a movement, right? This is the third reconstruction, everybody. My new book, Capitalism for All, is on the 250th anniversary of America and is the 100th anniversary of Black History Month. God, in his coincidence as God's way, remain anonymous. The whole country is going through one huge colonic, trying to figure out who it wants to be when it grows up. And so you got women powering the economy. You can't survive this future growth without black and brown people in the economy. But we don't have the tools to succeed. We're still dealing with civil rights in a world of civil rights. And so we need Tiffany, we need Ernie and Leisure, we need Robert Smith, we need whoever, you know, Ash Cash, we whoever is ethical and honest out here, who is doing it right. We need everybody at the table, because the new movement's not in the streets, it's in the suites. So we need a whole network, local, state, federal, international of people realize that financial literacy is a civil rights issue with this generation. When you know better, you're better. And she is, and so on this point, you've created legislation also in New Jersey. Tell the audience about that. So yes, so I work with, she was my assemblywoman, Angela V. McKnight. She actually was one of my students at the United Way when I was teaching, I wrote their curriculum at the United Way in Newark. And I taught that program for three years. And she was one of my students. She had this amazing nonprofit. The community said, you need to run for office. We need people like you, Angela. She said, OK. She ran and she won her seat as assemblywoman here in New Jersey. She's now senator, because she's gotten the most lost past in almost any other legislator in the state of New Jersey. She's so effective. And when she became the assemblywoman, Angela said, Tiffany, I want to get a law passed about education. I was taking financial education. And I said, well, there is kind of a long place for high school. But I think financial education should start as young as middle school. And she said, OK, we wrote what we thought it should be. I helped to meet with educators, met with other lawmakers, and testified. And it took about three years. But I called the budget needs to law. They call it A1414, but whatever. No, it's the budget needs to law. I know exactly. But that passed in 2000. Oh my gosh, 19. So all middle school students in the state of New Jersey must get financial education integrated into their curriculum. And currently now we're working on refining the law for high school, because it used to be you could take an economics course or something else. Now we're like, no, no, we want every single high school senior, by the time you're a senior, to have at least a semester of financial education. And so that's what we're currently working on now. And then really what I want to do is I want to go back to elementary school. So I want, if you're in the state of New Jersey, starting kindergarten through 12th grade, you're getting financial education. How would that change the trajectory of the lives of the students here? 100%. Here in Atlanta, kudos to you, by the way, on the budget needs to law. I think that's fantastic. And in Atlanta, we have worked with Mayor Andre Dickens and Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms before him and put together a Hope Child Savings Account for every kindergarten kid. So now every kindergarten kid has over 12,000 accounts that have a Hope Child Savings Account. Every kid, we're going to now wrap financial literacy around that and go K through college and tie that with AI literacy and financial literacy for future literacy, just what you're talking about. And it didn't hit me, but really it is a little bit of history here. You and I are probably only two black people in America who's inspired a state and the federal law. And we got President Bush and Obama to make an executive order to make financial literacy federal policy. But we never got the Congress to then codify that. That was for the federal government to codify that into something that would push down into the school district. And that's a dream I have, but you have gone beyond that and got it done in a prominent US state. And for that, I give you absolute kudos. Talk to us about why women are so important to this narrative that you have. I can talk about it, but I'm not a woman. Well, honestly, studies show that when you help a woman, you help a family. And not to say obviously we know that men are critical. I mean, I am the product of like, probably the most influential person in my life. My mother, hopefully she doesn't listen because she always gets mad when I say this. What is my father? So I'm not gonna, certainly I'm not saying that, but that women typically are the first teachers in a household. So if a woman knows how to manage money, she passes that on to the children. She creates many times the environment for her partner to be able to succeed financially. Even if a woman is not working, she's typically making the majority of the financial choices. For those men who are married to women, imagine deciding what house you wanna get. If you love it, she hates it. You're already getting a house, but if she hates it and you don't like it so much, you might still get it. And so women, even if they're not working, are still making the financial choices. The car you drive, the food you eat, what the kids wear. And so if we can get women on board, it trickles down into every area of life. And so that's why I always say we don't turn anyone away. So we certainly have about maybe like 20 to 30% of our audience as men, but the vast majority of because I'm a woman, I know I'm attracting women. The vast majority of my audiences are women. And I love that because I have so many women who stopped me to say, I didn't know what to do until I met you or took your class or read your book, get good with money. And because for women, John, what I find that it's a confidence issue, not a competence issue. And so they're needing to see like, oh, if Tiffany can do it, this is another woman. Like I have the ability, I just didn't know what to do. And she's showing me step by step. Right. Yeah, I think, just go back to Bregan of the Taboo. You know, you said to your dad, who's an economist as I believe as well, who talks to you. He was a financial, he was a CFO, a chief financial officer, but he has his master's in economics. Like I said, an economist. Yeah. Bad government. Bad government. Yeah. You know, there's an old saying that if you want to find a good woman, an easy place to find a good woman is find a woman who had a great relationship with her dad. You want to find a good man, an easy place to find a good man is to find a man who had a great relationship with his mother. And now, yeah, there are exceptions to every rule without question, but that's an easy, like a low hanging fruit. So she had a great relationship and still has with her dad. And I think that's a compliment to her mother, actually, for nurturing that, allowing that, facilitating that. And without, with regard to women, without women to be a lot less men, only women can create life. And in 1972, a woman couldn't get a bank account in America. Or a credit card. Yeah, couldn't get a loan unless her husband co-signed it. And I go into great detail about this I use women as a proof point in my new book, Capitalism for All, I use it as a proof point that diversity and inclusion are not moral issues or money issues. This is take the emotions out of it. This is just good economics. Women were not allowed in the economy. And when that, when the black people's affirmative action triggered the women's movement that got codified by Nixon as president in 1972, 1974, the economy grew because women were in it. And today women are eight to 10 trillion dollars of a $30 trillion economy. A third, where we be, where would we be 50 years before, 50 years later, if we had not included women? Cause white women then triggered the inclusion of black women, Asian women, Latino women, all women. We'd be a, we wouldn't be the biggest economy in the world. We'd be an also ran nation. And because China is 20 trillion, give her, I think 20, 20 trillion and approaching that, but we're 30 trillion. We're only that because of that advantage of women. And that's the message I have for folks today is, is you're not doing me a favor, right? By, by, by, by including the lease of these God's children. You're doing yourself a favor because my first, my rich friends, my poor friends do better only to stay rich. So women are the only undeniable market test. The results are in. We don't need to speculate. 50 years history of what happens when you diversify the economy and is led by women. And I think, and I saw, I think it's brilliant that you, you've got this book that really highlights and brings up their dignity and this teaching inspiration around that a lot of your comments that you're endorses on line are women who just herald how this made them feel. It's not, not, not, not so as how, what it taught them. That's important, but how it made them feel they can do anything. Yeah. And honestly, that like all that I do, it's not to your point. I mean, cause money is money, obviously, you know? And so, so when I wrote get good with money, it was really about trying to get people to achieve what I like to call financial wholeness. That's the teacher in me, right? That's the curriculum, right? That financial wholeness are these 10 steps, you know? So these 10 steps that if you can master these 10 steps, even if you don't make a ton of money, you don't become a million or whatever, you can be okay. You, you will have a holistically strong financial life. So it's the foundation. Yeah, the foundational five are budgeting, savings, debt, credit, income, and then comes investing for both wealth and retirement. It is insurance, your net worth, your financial team and estate planning. If you master those 10 things. So for John, for like 20 year old John, estate planning might look like, I don't know, like your mom or your dad, whoever raised you is the beneficiary on a bank account, you know? But for 46 year old Tiffany now, estate planning looks like trust and a will. So even if you're 20, you can still estate plan. And even, you know, so at every step of these steps, it looks different, but you can achieve and master those steps where you are. And you can achieve financial wholeness. And so when I wrote it, I knew there was gonna hit a nerve, but it's sold like 400,000 copies. So even my publisher was like, what? I'm like, but I knew, I said, people need step by step hand-holding help. How do I do these things? And so the softcover book comes out the 31st. It'll probably be out by the time this comes out. The hardcover book came out in 2021. Yeah, but eight weeks on the New York Times best sellers list. And it's really like some of my greatest work of walking people through step by step to whatever their financial journey it is. It meets you where you are and takes you where you wanna go. Right. So new edition of your book, people can pick up. Yes, the softcover version of getting money. So less money, because you know, hardcover's cost more, so no excuses. Yes, so everybody, please go pick up her book. Get the money. So you're in the pulpit of hope. You're in the church of what's happening now and what have you done for me lately? This is the Ministry of Finance. I'm gonna let you go for seven minutes. What methods do you have uninterrupted? I know you can do it, I've heard you speak before. What methods do you have uninterrupted? Somebody gives you a pulpit and say, preach into this audience and give them the tools they need to go into 2026, which is gonna be a very interesting year. Well, I'm gonna say this, that I, so I'm gonna start with the story that I unfortunately lost my husband in 2021. He was 41 years old. He had a brain aneurysm. And so he was literally here on Monday, gone on Friday, like just like that. He called me to say thank you, that he had a headache and that he was going to the hospital, which I can chuckle about now, because my husband, unlike so many men, loved to go to the daggone doctor. I mean, his pinky toe hurt, he was going to the doctor. So I didn't really think anything of it. I thought a headache and go into the emergency room. Okay, babe, but I'll meet you there. It turned out he, it was an aneurysm, but the doctors were very confident. They said, you know, he's talking, he's awake, it hasn't burst, he's gonna be fine. They did the surgery, they said it went well, and then it didn't. He started bleeding and then he just fell into a coma and just never awoken. And so that fundamentally shifted how I thought about money and what I wanna share when I think about the, what is the real reason behind like wealth and growing money? And for me, I used to think like more was more, you know? Like I worked really hard to build this business from zero. I don't have any, no one ever backed me, no one ever gave me any money. I built from scratch, you know? And I worked really hard and I remember he would always be like, oh, babe, we have enough. Because I'd be like, I want a bigger house. We could get this, we could have that. I met him in my 20s and we got married in our 30s. I was a preschool teacher and he was a maintenance man. I'll never forget. And then we met up again in our 30s. And I always thought he was really cute. And we started dating, fell in love and got married. And in that timeframe, I remember him saying he wanted to have a house. He grew up in Newark, New Jersey. His father wasn't in his life. His mother raised him and his twin brother and his sister. And he was just one of the most standup guys. And candidly, my husband never made over $60,000 a year. There were moments in business where I could take home, not even in business make, I could take home over $60,000 in a month. And he never made over $60,000 a year. He was a super at Newark Tenants Council, which was, they own, not Newark Tenants Council, I'm sorry, Newark Housing Authority. They own like public housing in Newark. And he was a super of 300 units. And so it doesn't pay a bunch, you know? But I just remember when he passed away, collectively he left me and my bonus daughter seven figures. And yet, I think people don't understand that. So I'm sharing all this to say, the importance of financial education. Jarrell, his name is Jarrell Smith, was really big on, I wanna make sure I have enough life insurance for y'all. He worked for the city essentially and had a pension. You know, he changed the beneficiaries over to myself, largely myself and Alyssa. He had purchased this property from the city for $10,000. We had it renovated and when he passed away, I had a property and I told Alyssa, then this will be your property. Sold it to his twin brother who now has his own property that has now appreciated. So now, and now the money that I got from that property, I invested for Alyssa. She was 15 when he passed, she's 19 now. That money has grown exponentially. It is waiting for her. So when she graduates college, she's in school now, she can buy her own property or start a business. But do you see, so I'm sharing that financial education, it's not always about like, I'm gonna get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. I know so many women who lose their husband and their house. But because of Darrell, I was able to get my second property and pay for it. And I'm wanting access to culturally aligned financial education for everyone because some of the things certainly I taught him, but some things he knew before I got here. And so what would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth, like tangible wealth like that to the people when they're no longer here? He did not think he was not gonna be here at 41. And so not only did we get to pass on this wealth for Alyssa, my bonus daughter, but also she gets financial education matched to that. She and I, she's living with me right now while she's in school. She and I talk about money all the time. She's working, we talk about what savings looks like should she open a credit card? Because when that lump sum hits her after she graduates, she's gonna be ready. I already connected Alyssa to my personal financial advisor. They speak at least annually so she can map out her plan so she doesn't waste that money when it comes to her. And so I can't want for myself and not want the same thing for you. I want, yes, for you to have access to money and resources, but not only just that, but the knowledge of what to do with it if you get it. Because money without knowledge is brokeness. You will be, that money will flow right through your hands. They have done so many studies that show people who win the lottery are typically broker a year later. Because if you don't know how to manage money, it will actually do more damage than not having it at all. And so I'm just so grateful that John has allowed me to come here. Yes, I wrote get good with money to be able to give you step-by-step guidance. But I decided very long ago that I wanted to live my life in service to others. And I think people think service means brokeness. Well, I'm not broke, I'm wealthy. I've grown well for myself. I don't have to work anymore. So let's get that out of like, so you can be of service. You can help good people. You can do good work and you can make good money. I'm a testament to that. I do not compromise on my integrity when it comes to being of service to the people that I serve. What I want for you is what I have for myself. I want you to have access to resources. I want you to have access to knowledge. I want you to have access to community. I want you to be able to build the life that you desire using money as one of the tools. Because we don't know how long we have here. And I want you to live life fully on your terms. And so that is the legacy I hope to leave behind when it's my time not to be here anymore. So thank you, John. Thank you. And inspiring is not the sermon I thought you'd give, but it's the one that everybody needed was right on time. And you're giving me with a lot of dignity. The rainbows only follow storms. You cannot have a rainbow without a storm first. You can't grow except the legitimate suffering. And clearly you've grown. Clearly you've found purpose and meaning through the pain and found purpose and prosperity. And there's enough to actually making money and building wealth. Wealth is also a mindset. And I was at a closing comment. I was the last two days at two different, oh, sorry, the last two days, yesterday and the day before, I had two different fundraisers. I had a purpose or a role in the program. And they were events, celebration events, but they were really fundraisers. And the organization, Clark Island University, and then the ACE Awards for the Arts for honoring Bill Duke. And spontaneously, at both events, I said, you know what? My wife and I in Operation Hope are going to do X, Y, and Z Operation Hope is going to be some program scholarships worth X. Me and my wife are going to give a small contribution worth Y. And I walked off back to my seat and finished my dinner. My point is I didn't have to worry about it. Just like you said, I didn't have to worry was that coming from my rent or my mortgage payment? Or can I make ends meet? All money is its freedom. Yeah. All it is. And I've got enough freedom to be able to help myself and help everybody else too if I want to. And so does Tiffany. And she wants that for you. She wants you to be able to have self-actualization, have agency in your life. And we live whether you like it or not in an economic world. It's a capitalist democracy. If you don't believe that, look at the last election. People are making decisions based on their pocketbook, their budget, or at least their perception of what's right for their wallet. And we have got to get our morals and our money back in alignment. And I think that what you are doing and the way in which you're going about it, heart first hand attached is directly in line with that. And I commend you. I encourage everybody to go buy your book and support your organization. Because as you're supporting you, clearly you're supporting everybody else. So it's a mobile fire fact. Ladies and gentlemen, it's been an hour with the budget. On money and wealth, share this with your friends, find her mother, get this to her mother. No, this is going to be bad. I talk about my dad in too much. God bless everybody. Good things in the world. Money and Wealth with John Ho Bryan is a production of the Black Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts from the Black Effect Podcast Network, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever. You listen to your favorite shows. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed human.