Epstein, Trivers, and Gender: The 312th Evolutionary Lens with Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying

Hey folks, welcome to the Dark Horse Podcast live stream number three. I should know because- Are we whispering today? No, we're not whispering. I'm struggling because we had a very good discussion about the last episode number, but it doesn't actually come to mind. Three twelve. Three twelve. Well, then that means I'm Dr. Brett Weinstein. You are Dr. Heather Hying. It means that such thing. Uh, it follows that we would be those people in light of the fact that this is the Dark Horse Podcast live stream. There it is. There it is. And I will say, uh, I'm reminded- There were many airlines. It is the evolutionary lens. Uh, I'm reminded of a quote that I looked up and was slightly surprised to discover is attributed to Vladimir Lenin, but nonetheless, it applies. Um, I see you backing away. Um, the quote is to the effect. No doubt it was not an English originally if it's really Lenin, but, um, the quote is something like, uh, some decades, nothing happens and some weeks, a decade happens. Um, I feel like it has been one of those weeks. There is so much stuff that I'm overwhelmed trying to understand it. And, um, this is complicated because you've been a way doing other things and- I was, I was in Texas visiting my oldest friend, her husband, um, an hour outside of Austin and was basically completely offline for several days, uh, which was pleasant to say the least. Um, and, uh, I mean, you were dealing with significant issues. Absolutely. They weren't online. Right. The, uh, the wildlife. Um, yes, we, uh, it was so cold. It was actually so cold in central Texas, uh, that we, uh, we had to move their flock of 31, I think, chickens from their usual coops, uh, into a barn that they could heat. And so I got to, I got to carry chickens, but I also saw armadillos. Which is pretty great. Which is pretty great. It's been decades since I've seen an armadillo. And I would like to have seen an armadillo. Yeah, they're not, uh, they're not the brightest mammals. That's not their strong. I must say I, I was walking. I was actually on the phone with our son, son, Zach at one point and walking and, uh, sort of came up shorts. Like, that is the back end of an armadillo trying to get into a hole by a stump. And the armadillo was panicking, panicking, panicking, and then clearly decided that it achieved its goal of becoming visible. Two thirds of the armadillo was still patentally visible. And it was still even like shaking its butt a little bit. Yes, they are. As you say, not the brightest animals. And in my experience, their vision isn't so good either. Yeah, later by, um, my, our friend, Mike's, uh, hi, he's a, he's a, he's a big guy. He's actually, he peaks the most amazing honey out of best drop county in Texas. And, uh, he, the bees make the most amazing honey and he facilitates. They're making it the honey. Uh, but I saw, I, I was walking near them and an armadillo came running towards me as if I wasn't there. And it's not that they aren't scared of apes. They are. Right. I think he did not see me. He or she metaphorically speaking when God invented the armadillo, he quickly realized it was going to need some armor. Yeah. Or to protect it from itself. Right. Or some bad things. Yeah. So it was going to have some run-ins and it needed a plan B rather than just escaping based on its, um, insight into the world or speed. Yeah. Um, well, yeah, actually, um, no, let's, let's, let's, let's pay rent up top. Um, let's, let's do the top of the hour ads as we, as we always do three, three sponsors whom we, uh, very much, uh, like, and that's why you hear us reading reading the ads right now and then we'll get into some of the heart of the matter. Totally. Yeah. Totally. Um, all right. 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And our final sponsor, I'm trying to trick my computer. I know, I know, it's an elegant solution. There are no elegant solutions here, Dark Horse, apparently. There are no elegant solutions, no only trade-offs as Thomas Saul says. Well, he doesn't really say exactly. No, when I feel like we could come up with elegant solutions, but somehow this is a retina, it's probably not even a solution. It's probably just clergy without even solving anything. Now the worst of both worlds are final sponsor. I've got an old, our final sponsor this week is clear. And that's clear. A nasal spray that supports respiratory health. It's widely available online and stores in both it and the company that makes it are fantastic. It's clear. But it's spelled X-L-E-A-R pronounced clear. Throughout history, improvements in sanitation and hygiene have had huge impacts on human longevity and quality of life. More so than traditional medical advances. 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Nothing happens, or a week's worth of something happens. No, no. In some decades, nothing happens, and in some weeks a decade happens. Okay. So in light of that, I was thinking that I might finish by reading this famous poem by William Butler Yates, but maybe we should start here. All right. Just as a framing. So it's the second coming by William Butler Yates, published in 1919. So he was, he did not know that he was between world wars, but he was just post-World War I. Turning and turning in the widening gire, the Falcon cannot hear the Falker. Things fall apart. The center cannot hold. Mir Anarchy is loose upon the world. The blood dimmed tide is loose and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned. The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand. Surely the second coming is at hand. The second coming. Hardly are those words out when a vast image out of spirit is Monday troubles my sight. Somewhere in sands of the desert a shape with lion body in the head of a man, a gaze blank and pitalous as the sun is moving its slow thighs. While all about it real shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again, but now I know that 20 centuries of stony sleep were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle. And what rough beast it's our calm round at last slouches towards Bethlehem to be born. The center must, the center, sorry, the center cannot hold is the phrase that most everyone in modern times is familiar with whether or not they know that it comes from yadts. And it feels, you know, there is much ink has been spilled over the interpretation of this poem as is true of many great poems because unlike prose, they are not meant to have, unlike most prose, they are not meant to have a single interpretation. But variously history is cyclic. We are exiting one horrible age and entering another, but there is no promise that the new one shall have a better moral center, a stronger one or that itself shall redeem us. Those are some of the interpretations of what this poem as a whole means. It is the origin of the phrase slouching towards Bethlehem in which we are inexorably returning to someplace that perhaps brought light at one point, but may not again. The center cannot hold that is certainly what it feels like right now in the world. Yes, it's a brilliant poem, maybe my favorite, and I agree it is not designed to have a single interpretation. That's what the kids call a vibe, but it obviously resonates across many decades, more than 100 years at this point, for a reason. And I have to tell you, my head has been absolutely spinning in light of everything that is emerging and trying to just make sense, even basic sense of it, and hadn't thought of this poem the whole time, but you're right, it puts it in stark relief where we are and the center cannot hold, but at some level it must. Right, I mean, that's where we find ourselves over and over and over again. It's not working and it must work. And this is the argument of people in many places on the continuum across many domains, sure the institutions are failing, but we need them. And then there's a disagreement over, yes, we need institutions, but do we need these ones? Aren't these institutions too flawed? Don't we need to phoenix them then? Don't we need to watch them as they destroy themselves fully and from their ashes? Build new ones? Yeah, build something that functions because we can't live like this. Obviously, we have total collapse of all the things on which we're depending, but the edifice is still stand, which is the worst of both worlds because it leaves you without, you know, we don't seem to have an FBI. We might need something to do investigation on behalf of the public, but you can't set one up because there is one. So anyway, hard to know. And that's actually, I think, part of what bureaucratic bloat is at a smaller level. You know, maybe it usually had a less important level and corporate bloat. Like, oh, we had a thing that did this job. And usually we usually people think of this as like, oh, it just like it scaled up, we need more things. But I've seen, we've seen this most directly, but I certainly have seen it over and over and over again at the academic level where you have, you have something that works, but one piece of it starts to fail. And so you have the creation of a center or, you know, like a something else that's kind of doing the job. And then that is failing. And so you have this. And you know, you just get colleges upon colleges and systems upon systems and centers and, and it feels incomprehensible if you walk in at the moment that everyone walks in at, you know, whatever point they enter it unless they were part of the creation. Like, what is this mess? What is this madness? Why do we have this? And, you know, even if each decision and, you know, much of what we will talk about this week, we're not decisions made in good faith or good conscience. But even if each decision to fix a wrong, to write a wrong was made honorably, that doesn't mean the system that you end up with as functional or honorable. Yes. And sometimes the systems that we assume were set up honorably weren't. Sure. Anyway, upcoming podcasts will cover one such instance that I've just learned where I assumed something had been set up in good faith that just wasn't. But maybe an overarching theme so that we can understand the rest of what we have to cover today is as long time dark horse viewers know, we talk frequently about the distinction between complicated systems and complex systems. And all of our institutions are set up to function within a complex system, humanity, civilization. These are complex systems inherently. And what I think we are seeing is the fact that you can't set up a static system or even one that you have built the provisions to update that's going to accommodate the kind of parasitism that evolves in a complex system. In other words, you need to have something analogous to an immune system in order to prevent your well-intentioned institutions from being overwhelmed by the things that would love to get a hold of them and use them for their own purposes against the public spirit. And that's where we are. There's a reason that we're watching it across every institution. There are certainly conspiracies of plenty involved in the failure of those things. But the idea that there would be things trying to gain access and that they would eventually find their way in is pretty well guaranteed if you don't have a complex system fighting it, something analogous to an immune system. And I don't think we've ever figured out how to build such a thing. So we are living in an era of jaw-dropping corruption. Maybe just a return to by brief focus on bureaucracy. The bureaucracy is made up of entities that are complex systems, individual humans, but it is inherently a complicated system itself. And so the beings who are running it may assume that what they're involved in is complex like they are, but it is not, and therefore cannot solve the problems of complexity. Yeah, there's a reason that we analogize them to cogs. It specifically tells you the people who staff these systems, right? They are cogs when we dismiss, you know, they're functioning. We talk about them, you know, a cog is a simple entity, you know, maybe not at the material level. But it can't keep up with a complex problem like corruption. So anyway, it's an arms race and there's a reason that we've lost it across the board. And it is, it's that the complexity got the better of the complicated. And that was predictable enough. Of course, our founders didn't know about complexity, right? We had not. I'm sure some of them intuitive something about complexity. They feared things that we would now understand as complex like private interests, overwhelming government in the spirit of the public. But they didn't have the tools. And we still don't have the tools to describe a system that resists this. All right. I think the first thing that we should address is the emergence of Robert Triver's email. There are actually several emails in the new Epstein release. And we should talk about our relationship to Bob and we should talk about what we see and what we think others see especially in the email that has gotten so much attention. Do we start with the email or do we go into the place? No, I think we should, I think we should put Bob in context so people understand where we're coming from. So Bob was my undergraduate advisor. Was my de facto undergraduate? He was your de facto advisor. Yes, your actual advisor. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I was I was not able to be a biology major. So he was my de facto advisor. And I was his research assistant for over a year. Yep. So at the point that you and I landed at UCSC. I was evolution crazed and I had showed you why this was such a powerful way of viewing the world. And you were becoming evolution crazed as well. Did you use that word? But okay. Well, let's just say, you know, at the point you discover that there's a framework that allows you to think about all sorts of things that you might be thinking about otherwise, but not know how to work with it. It's very, it's exhilarating to find a framework that makes these questions tractable. We landed at UCSC. And I remember you saying to me, do you know who's here? And I said no. And you said Robert Rivers, one of the greatest evolutionary biologists since Darwin. And I was shocked and delighted. And you and I signed up for his amazing social evolution course. Of course, he was a master lecturer. And he's a brilliant teacher. Brilliant teacher. And he, you know, covered all the most fascinating topics, especially he was very focused on human beings. And it was just a mind blowing experience to be in this class. And to hear this great thinker expound on all of these topics, he was very scientifically rigorous. He was very aware of what he didn't know. He had all sorts of the best characteristics of a scientific mind. And anyway, we became generous with both his mind, his thoughts, and his time. Not only that, but as you've discussed publicly, he warned us when we went off to graduate school. That we should make sure that our experience maintained contact with undergraduates, because he said, they will ask you questions that people who are more expert will not. And they will, they will push you around and they will keep your mind alive and agile in a way that if you went to somewhere like Rockefeller or something where there were no undergraduates, the point is everybody's learned what questions we don't ask because we can't figure out how to answer them. And so your mind can become stale. And this will maybe be less obvious to people, but he also said go to a place with a museum. What is the advantage of being a museum? I said to him, but Bob, I want to be an animal behaviorist in a museum, everything's dead. Not so much behavior there, right? He said, sure, fine. But there are questions to be asked of the collections of the organisms and the collections that you probably haven't imagined, but more important by far is that a museum is a place where people come. And this is part of the tragedy of the death of research museums that increasingly, when people need to see collections, want to see collections to answer scientific questions that they have, they go to someplace off site and run into it, no one. But an active museum, as the museum of comparative zoology was at Harvard when he was there as a graduate student and very early in his career. And at the University of Michigan Museum of zoology, where we ended up doing our graduate work, were world class, you know, some of the absolute best research museums in the world, museums of zoology. And people would come through all the time to do research. And so you just run into people. If you were hanging out in the in the range hanging out in the collections, I was a curatorial assistant for a couple of summers. And just the number of people who would come through from other universities, including Frano from Europe. And they would have some particular question that they were there to do. They were measuring, you know, scales on lizards from a particular spot, you know, because I was in the Harp division, where we had collections of reptiles and amphibians. But of course, no one of any note is only going to be focused on their particular research question at a time. And so, you know, Bob's point, which had been invisible to me before, was you want to be, you know, you want to be exposed to as many ideas as possible in order to stay as vibrant as possible. And to, you know, just to be learning and to be thinking scientifically as broadly as you possibly can. You know, the narrower your focus, the narrower the particular place where you are, with regard to how many people come through the fewer interactions you have with people who haven't yet been exposed to the ideas of your field. And this is the point about teaching undergraduates. The less good a scientist you will be, no matter what your chops are to begin with. Absolutely. And these both prove to be highly predictive, you know, I think the teaching undergraduates is great. And they do ask you questions you won't get anywhere else. And our training in a museum that has sadly been crippled since we left as the, you know, bean counters of decided museum work isn't important. But while we were there, it was a great experience. I wouldn't trade it. Okay. So, Bob is a friend of ours. And several people have on X asked, you know, well, what do you think of the Tribur's Revelation? Why aren't you speaking? And I will say the situation is a delicate one. And I'm going to share something with you that we'll explain to you why I wasn't eager to rush into that frame. Bob is in, he's on hospice. He is dying. In fact, he has lived longer than he was expected to live. This is not a new issue. He is completely not cognizant anymore. He could die anytime. And at the point he does, I would imagine that there's going to be speculating about whether the timing of his death in light of the embarrassing release in the Epstein files is a little too convenient. It isn't. It's just a coincidence. I've known since early December that this was the condition. So, anyway, Bob is, he's going to die and he's never going to know that this discussion was happening. That said, you and I had the same reaction. You and I separately became aware of the Tribur's email that was widely circulating at the end of last week. Which I forgot to talk about, we really didn't need to share it. Okay. We will do that. But you and I had the sense watching this that, yes, that is not, it's not a defensible email, but it does not mean what the people who were interpreting it seemed to think as far as we can tell. Knowing Bob, this does not read to us the way it seems to be reading to others. And you have, I think, very astutely pointed out that it is an exercise that we have to go through to say, if we didn't know Bob Trivers, yes, would we be reading this the way others are? And I can't answer the question for myself. I don't think so, but... I mean, this is at the point that I became aware of the email. And it's just been a couple of days, I guess. That is the question I keep on coming back to because I'm so I'm so surprised by the response that people are having and it's and I and I we can never know how if we had seen this email without knowing who had written it, what we would have thought. But knowing that it comes, you know, and put aside the fact that he is a friend of ours, but knowing that it comes from one of the greatest evolutionary minds ever to exist, it it reads as academic speculation. It is not history, it is not fantasy, it is nothing of the sort. It is it is evolutionary thinking about the horrible things. So I think maybe we should share it rather than because some people want to run into it. Let me say one one one one one one one one one unconsensical conversation. I don't know if I said it in explaining how we end up in this conversation now rather than before. I needed permission to talk about Bob's condition. It was not public. I now have that permission from his family and so I'm entering that piece of information so that people have it and so that his death does not cause the speculation that otherwise I'm sure it would. So okay, let's show the email. Yeah, so it's on my screen or you have it I guess. So this is Robert Trevers, writing to Jeffrey Epstein with the subject trams on December 17th, 2018. Clearly I think responding to a question, the question of which is not in the files as far as either of us has found. He writes, it is very simple. I will compare male to female with female to male. With greater molecular with greater molecular control over development, we are increasingly capable of producing novel phenotypes more found in men by blocking testosterone receptors or by castration at the same time increasing estrogen production. The one blocks male features the second encourages female features. More masculine women, heavy testosterone dosage, incredible external effects heavily bearded men. You would never guess they had a female bone on their body. First kind male to female is four times more frequent than female to male. The first is attractive is a woman with a cock so that if your fantasy is to suck a man's dick, otherwise you are completely heterosexual, it would be much nicer if the rest of the organism is female than you get the best of both worlds. So many transsexual women are very attractive and easily make money which internally assert promotes their prostitution since they have to pay hefty fees for injections every week but they are sexually happy. Once you have reached manhood even castration does not prevent the cessation of organism of the means orgasm there. Contrast the poor female to male versions, they are unhappy and lonely, they are men with mum pumps the worst of both worlds. If you like smelly masculine men you want that hard cock that comes with a show. You do not want one of nature's more complex and viable structures, the pump pump. I don't know which one is right. I couldn't tell whether that was a typo. So we will get to Bob's longstanding connection with Jamaica but he's using... I don't know which one of those is the one he means. It's obviously a word for vagina. You do not want one of nature's more complex and variable structures that is an acquired taste and not with a man. There are hundreds of female trans videos and websites I have never seen a male one. By the way we are now pushing the intervention earlier. So you notice your three-year-old son has trans tendencies so now you intervene with hormones. I would be frightened to do that but who knows. Before you start your thing on this I just want to say again that there is no fantasy here, there is no description of what has happened in Bob's world nor what he would hope to happen. This is a man who went intact and again he is now dying. Was not into girls. He certainly wasn't into boys or men. He was sexually attracted to women. Perhaps more than others. He was very sexually active. He had a active libido, healthy libido. But none of this describes desire or hope or action on his part in any way. Yes and I think if you look at the discussion that's happened about it there's a lot of focus understandably on the very end of it where he's talking about interventions and children which of course one thing I would just say up front is it's hard to remember how long ago 2018 was in this discussion. It doesn't seem like it could possibly be that long ago but it is fairly long ago. And what he's talking about when he says we I think some people imagine that he was somehow involved in some such effort. He's talking with the sort of scientific we right? Yes. That those who are involved in these interventions are pushing them earlier and of course he never intended this email to be read by anybody other than Epstein presumably and so he wasn't using careful language at all obviously and frankly I find the email grotesque in several places but he's clearly referring to he talks about websites, about trans women and the phenomenon of people who who transition and are actually happier having done so does exist which is what he's referring to. So and this is a man whose contributions to evolution biology are legend and shall remain so but you know quite separate from most of his major contributions. He had a long-standing academic scientific interest in sexuality in all organisms honestly I remember you know conversations about the lesbian goals and you know the different the different considerations the different environmental conditions under which female female sexual attraction evolves in non-human species and how facultative it is and how common it is and how much rarer the evolution of male male attraction is in non-human species and of course that interest that academic that scientific interest extended to humans as well. He had great and long-standing interest in all things human including all things human sexually that is quite different having having a research interest and having a you know a personal interest in experiencing things are completely different. Yes in fact so I would say not only did he have an interest in all things sexual as an evolutionary biologist obviously it's an important it's one of the most important factors but he had an interest in anything that was non-standard because obviously there's an evolutionary question of why we aren't just simply all straight right yeah so I remember a discussion from that wonderful social evolution course where we were lucky enough to experience one of the great evolutionary biology courses ever taught on earth I promise you it was that and I remember him saying that one of the interesting things he had noted apparently he had done anonymous surveys of students I don't think they just covered this topic but he said you know this class is not representative of the larger college the number of gay people in this course is much lower than you would expect based on the population of the college the larger college and he discussed a hypothesis for why that might be and his his point at the time was that he thought that gay people were likely to think about the topic of evolution as hostile to them because it is so focused on reproduction and Bob was very broad-minded and Bob knew better than to think it was only about direct reproduction in fact he my understanding of how Bob became an evolutionary biologist you tell me if I have any of the details wrong as you know them but he was a mathematician in training and he spotted basically the math inside of evolutionary biology and he wrote to W.D. Hamilton maybe the greatest biologist or evolutionary biologist since Darwin and was encouraged by Hamilton so Hamilton did not go on to be his formal advisor but they became friends and colleagues and in any case Hamilton is famous among other things for putting the mathematics to the logic of indirect reproduction through kin so the model called kin selection is a formulation of W.D. Hamilton and so anyway Bob was one of the messages that will come through here is that Bob was not you can't peg him as one thing or the other he's an evolutionary biologist but does not have the biases of many other evolutionary biologists the collection of things that he did and did not believe and suspected about evolution was highly unique to Bob. Yeah he had lived he had lived an interesting life because he was the son of a diplomat I believe and so had lived a number of places that's not the story I remember but I can't quite place there was that there was some famous athologist under whom he worked almost by chance. Earth? Oh it was herb-devoire. Yeah and having otherwise been thinking about the law I think and maybe maybe also math but you know my memory of the details hasn't been reupped in a while so I don't I don't remember all of it but but yes he was as the great scientist always are interested in and capable of making inferences in and observations in you know across many many domains and you know the curiosity is almost boundless and curiosity can look dangerous when taken out of context but this I mean this is this is an issue that is evolutionary biologists we we have seen a lot and you know we're perhaps first introduced to people's fear of evolutionary questions indeed as undergraduates when people in the social sciences would say things like you can't ask those questions you can't ask what the evolutionary foundations of genocide might be or of rape and you know an evolutionary take is actually the more we know the better able we can then take what we understand about a thing that has no inherent moral valence as it happens and we can apply our understanding as humans with morals and say that is despicable and if we understand it better from an evolutionary perspective we are better able to reduce its incidence its incidence in the wild in humans like it is it is through knowledge that we can actually get these horrifying human behaviors under control and I'm not saying that that is there's any evidence of exactly that in in this email but in general that is the that is that is an argument that evolutionary biologists find themselves having to make and it is a legitimate argument over and over again as we ask questions about ethnic conflict about rape about about genocide things like this yes so a couple things one there is another email I don't think there's anything especially anti-lizing in it there's another email in this tranche it's not part of the same email chain so it doesn't tell us what question he thinks he's answering in the email that you've just read but there is another email in which he discusses the lesbian gals and it appears to be his description of a book that he is writing about other kinds of sexuality other than straight so anyway that discussion is one that he is participating in I will also say you and I first met Bill Hamilton through Bob at a party that bob through in Santa Cruz um at a party yeah it was well let's just say nothing wild happened there oh no no it was actually a fairly boring party except for the people who were there except for the fact that WD Hamilton was uh and and the dootans right of Oakland right so I you know I see it on your on your page there so you were going to bring it up but um the hui p newton the radical black activist uh black panther black panther had a Phd in biology from the University of California at Santa Cruz because bob trivers had encouraged him in his interest in doing so and was his mentor there and after newton was killed uh after hui punuton was killed which is long before or at least somewhat somewhat before maybe not not long before we met bob um bob remained friends with with hui punutons family and so you know this and bob occasionally through these parties which again there was nothing remarkable about the mix up for the fact that they were in a small apartment um bob you know bob had uh they were a small underlittle apartment in which then you know he went and he this is how I remember him referring to them the newtons from Oakland we're always there a group of three four five people I don't I don't really remember much more than that except for the newtons from Oakland were there we were always there when we were there uh a few graduate students and then some evolutionary luminary like wt hamilton and then outside you'd be smoking pot and inside i don't know what just sort of standing awkwardly around there was dramatic music of course of course um well but so this is this is a place where you think you know what bob is but it's unlikely right so okay yeah not only was bob very close with hui newton bob himself was a black panther bob was thrown out of the black panther a story i don't completely understand but i think he was thrown out for his own protection or something like that so you would think not not for the obvious fact that he wasn't actually black well i mean i guess we're gonna go here but the thing is as as you well know but those in the public will not bob preferred black culture he did not pretend to be black right but he sought out i mean he built a house in jameka he was married to a jamekin woman he he felt more at home in that culture he understood it and i went into the field with him into jameka so i saw him in his element there i uh lived in his mother-in-law's house while i was there and they took me in and took care of me like a member of the family so anyway i got to see bob in his element but my point about him defying expectations you would think from the connection to the black panthers in hui newton you would think potentially from the reading of that email that is so common that bob was a radical liberal right he was nothing of the kind um in fact he you know i was quite a young person at the point that i was in the field within sort of in 1991 something like that maybe 1990 um but anyway you know he and i argued over this and he thought i was naive for being as liberal as i was he was not especially political except when it came to the uh disdain for the way american blacks had been treated by the system he had deep disdain he had deep disdain but even there you think okay he's not a radical liberal and it's not even obvious to me that he was a liberal at all but you know on this one issue maybe he was a radical liberal no not even there right and i was he was technically on twitter i think he all he you know he was too old to ever take it on as something but he had an account and i went to that account uh yesterday just to see what was there and it did not surprise me terribly but one of the things i found there and i forgot to give it to gen to show it but he posted a video of a black man i don't know who it is very well spoken talking to a i think it's a white podcaster somebody i don't recognize but the black man is describing the fact that liberals are abusing the concept of slavery and that they're pretending that this is a uniquely white on black phenomenon and that's not what it is any this person describes sort of global frequency with which uh slavery has happened the involvement of blacks in and slaving other blacks and selling them sometimes to blacks sometimes to white but anyway the point is bobs sympathies with american blacks was not of a kind that you commonly encounter it was he was not ideological as far as i ever saw in any in any context he assessed situations as they arrived and came to his own conclusions and that's you know the conclusions were not always the same ones that we would that either of us would come to and i do think there's some evidence that he you know wrote some things i can't remember some sort of like woke sound egg and antitrump rants at some at some points uh but this is not he can't be slotted in to any political category for sure and i think really to any category other than you know brilliant evolutionary biologist yes now i wanted to add one other thing one of the places that bob was way ahead of most evolutionary biologists is that he did not suffer from uh believing the trope that is now widely used to discredit what is now called evolutionary psychology what would once have been called socio biology the claim that many of the things that these biologists are talking about are cultural and therefore not evolutionary uh-huh bob was way ahead on this front bob understood that culture was an evolutionary phenomenon if yeah but if we didn't understand the exact interaction of them so he took human behavior very seriously and um in any case just uh you said it very well there you can't slot him into any known category because he was very much a one-off individual for both better and worse um but in terms of his insight into biology he had deep interest in non-usual human sexuality precisely because it inherently raises an evolutionary question that's in the emails the one that you read is confusing because of its grotesqueness but uh it's in the other emails where he's discussing you know his book project uh he specifically says that he wants to include lots of animal examples of unusual sexuality but he's afraid of boring the people who are human focused so you know it this is the context in which you and I are reading and I will say I was talking to a good friend of Bob's a couple days ago and he was telling these stories in which Bob he basically said that Bob would humor any perspective and take it seriously in order to have the argument and that's how I remember Bob also so I wish we did know what question he was responding to in that email it doesn't fully vindicate it but it uh it would go a long way to saying what exactly he was getting at but um let's see what what else do I know well you would um I think when we were talking before like what you know what what do you want to say I will say that I have I have known for a while that Bob was nearing the end of his life and so have been thinking about writing in obituary for a while and so I have written some things I'm not going to share them here but um I think both you and I have have have a much more to say but um I think you were planning to mention that he was he you know is still but he's at the end of his life now um extraordinarily complicated had um had mental instability had always had money troubles uh and so you know anyone who knew him I remember um an animal behavior conference in Atlanta in gosh would have been like the late 90s years since we had been in you know near daily contact with him at Santa Cruz um but I think after I think after maybe before we had actually invited him to be the man who would marry us he was the efficient at our wedding so this this is a man who we obviously uh felt felt strongly positively about that that he would oversee oversee that but he was given the plenary at the animal behavior conference in uh in Atlanta in whatever year I don't remember what year this would have been but late 90s and he was not totally having a stable moment his talk was was great as I remember it but he was dressed entirely in gold lame I spent that sound like Bob and um and I had seen I had seen him the day before I'd been wandering and he sort of slammed me across the gap he's like how they're high and you know and you know we went over and we spent a couple of hours talking um both him hashing out what he was going to say in his in his talk um but also it was clear that he was you know having a a manic moment and that as soon as he gave his talk he was going to you know fly to Jamaica because that's where he felt most at home and I was shocked then that um his brilliance was not sufficient and there was there there's nothing untoward about anything he was doing it was like he just literally showed up and entirely gold lame he suits which was not common like I'd never seen it before was on the audience um included some graduate students who were very disrespectful of him and who were clearly laughing at the fashion choice as opposed to at the at the the man whose brilliance was still on display on clear display and I thought then um this is a man whose struggles in parts of his life um may cause him not to be recognized for the extraordinary contributions that he's made to the human understanding of not just the human condition but um all of life on earth several things to add one the gold lame definitely is indicative of exactly what you're saying but it is also connected into the sort of Jamaica thread of his life because it is the kind of choice that would be much more I mean it's still a little extreme but it would be much more natural in the more demonstrative culture of Jamaica I mean that's one of the things Jamaica was very eye-opening to me and watching the way the exuberant way in which people lived and did everything was very eye-opening so anyway if you dressed up you had dressed up right um so anyway you could imagine I don't even know where you source a gold lame suit on this like you know yeah this is before you know you couldn't just google it yeah he couldn't just google it I mean frankly the town where his family lives southfield when I was there in 1990 or 1991 there was literally not even a phone right it was that you know I rode my bike to the junction to call you because the junction you know the junction of the roads was also the junction of the telephone lines and there was a pay phone there which didn't always work yeah even though it was like I know it was eight or ten miles it was a long ride to discover that the pay phone wasn't working but um but you're worth it um thank you so I did want to say something about the choice of Bob as the efficient at our wedding okay because you and I were very deliberate about that and it went off great he did a great job but the reason that we chose Bob was that we were evolutionary biologists a religious efficient didn't exactly seem like the right thing to do but Bob again not being the person that you would expect when you hear oh you know Harvard trained evolutionary biologist Bob was a religious guy and so he understood the intersection between he understood himself to be a Christian I believe I don't you know I was struggling with that yesterday I feel almost certain that that's what he would say he was but I don't remember him ever saying it and I don't know it for sure certainly he had spirituality and he and he talked about Jesus with a familiarity and a respect right so anyway he seemed like the right guy for the job assuming that he was going to show up in his more functional phase um but anyway and he did a great job he he he threaded the needle with respect to treating the you know the spiritual responsibility of the efficient uh properly and also not pretending that we were believers in the standard sense including uh he insisted on um a on a meeting frankly that doesn't sound important enough but I am meeting with us in advance of the ceremony uh to discuss to discuss us to discuss our relationship and specifically as I remember to ask us if we intended to have children because um he was he was there he was going to be our efficient regardless but uh he felt that uh people who were choosing to be married should have children and he wanted to know uh if he wanted to he thought he knew already but he wanted to make sure that this were true before he uh before he performed a marriage ceremony that might if he had been wrong been meant something else entirely yes uh had we said that we were not planning to have them I am certain we would have gotten the talking to yes and that it would have included um um what the right word is like a highly sophisticated zinger the kind of thing that lands and you never forget that it was said you know that kind of thing um you know like uh there was a a wedding uh in Jamaica when I was there I think I was invited to go to it though I didn't know the people it was crazy it carried goat was the wedding the wedding food is delicious um but anyway it started to rain uh at the beginning of the day and it was clear that this outdoor ceremony was going to be you know soggy at best and maybe drenched and I said Bob it you know what do we think about the fact that it's raining and he said it's a blessing Brett um you know like you can't figure this out like of course it rains on ceremonies you have to treat it as a blessing right and of course they would um and as I remember there was an errant single giant lightning strike and thunder clap at the moment of of uh Bob finishing his officiant duties and us getting married he slammed dunked the assignment and that was a blessing the universe was clapping yeah exactly and it not in jabaka in in the eastern seara um so I do want to say I think that his relationship to his uh mental health issues is not the relationship of Nash depicted in a beautiful mind people will have seen it you know Nash at least as the story goes to Nash the mathematician yes effectively uh mastered his I think it was schizophrenia um by sort of learning to recognize what that he was seeing wasn't real and he sort of had control Bob didn't and it probably I don't you know I don't I'm not a hundred percent certain what it was but the fact is Bob was well known in academic circles to have issues it interfaced terribly with his ability to hold down a position the community correctly viewed it as their obligation to take care of him in some way but Bob never made it easy he was his own worst enemy and I feel certain that Bob would agree to that statement with a laugh of course he's his own worst enemy right um but I do think this highly unusual individual has to be understood you can't make almost any leap about what you think he must have been thinking or you know what he wouldn't wouldn't do it's it's just not a reasonable conclusion with somebody as unusual as this but just to yeah I don't want to have to keep coming back to it but just to repeat you know his own worst enemy yes but a man with no interest no interest sexually and anything but adult women yes um and um you know there's there's stuff on record about him talking about um girls becoming women physically earlier than they used to and this is a comment that many people have made there is there is a difference between being interested in girls and being interested in women and that and that doesn't mean that being interested in 16 year olds who have the bodies of women and the mind still of of children is okay but it's very different from what most people think of when they imagine um pedophilia for instance that has that has zero relationship to the man that we know uh and I will also say I've now forgotten what the term is but I think there is even a technical term that distinguishes those states and I don't remember what it is but it's a distinction that nobody likes to hear made because frankly I think it's disgusting for older men to target younger women legal or not um but uh but nonetheless Bob has to be taken as he was and he was very much an evolutionary biologist clearly answering a question and uh doing so without the expectation that it was going to be read by people obviously and it's not surprising that people reading it with the sense that Epstein is this terrifying obviously evil human being right now this is 28 it was known right like yes it was and Bob uh his his terrible mistake defending Epstein post conviction yeah about like 2014 or something yeah he regretted very quickly um knew it was a mistake but okay um I have a note I can't read nothing new there um is there anything else that needs to be said here um you know that not not that I can think of at the moment um I think there's so much to be said about him and I you know I have been I didn't see this coming and see this email coming but uh but we both knew because the world knew that he had had a friendship uh with Epstein and that and that he had received some money for uh some research that was completely unrelated to anything about sexuality it was like uh knee function and running and it was fluctuating asymmetries which is a a common subject of his research in Jamaica um I think you know I and perhaps you will probably um put something out that will you know we'll we'll act as a kind of obituary when he does die which will be soon and I am I am glad that he isn't aware that this is happening now yeah and uh I would in I guess this isn't about Bob but one thing that um um that's seeing people's responses has made me wonder people are so sure of things that I am sure not true about what this means how often are we all doing this how often can we read words that absent context seem to mean something that they absolutely do not mean you know could could we be wrong about Bob not as a human being you know could you know are there things we don't know of course and uh am I asking for people to accept justifications of bad behavior no no but the certainty with which many people with whom I am you know otherwise aligned on the anti trans bandwagon have have taken to this and said this is you know this is the most bioebel I've ever seen this is so despicable I cannot see it that way and again I don't know if I could possibly possibly have seen it that way if I didn't know from the beginning who was writing it but it it makes me want to ask everyone to have some humility and be suspicious of your own certainty always I think that's an excellent point and I would just point out that the stage is set for this kind of leaping to conclusions by the vacuum of proper prosecution right the fact that these emails had to be pride loose right that they were not complete and they're directed weirdly and it's the whole thing is odd but but we're not denying in any way that like that email it's obviously I mean it honestly it it sounds like Bob yeah as much as I wish he hadn't written it and there's stuff in there that I'm surprised that he said there's nothing in there that that sounds like it was created by something trying to get Bob in trouble right it sounds like a you know sort of clinical scientific discussion of a thing that people are doing to other people um aside from like fully aside from the moral valence which I believe that Bob would agree but I do not know is horrifying right the moral valence of of trans of trans and children is horrifying yes I have no no doubt that he would agree to that in a proper discussion yeah um and I would say uh I assume I speak for you here but I wouldn't be defending him if I thought he had been involved in uh abusing kids of course there's no this is such a bright line yes that you know no one deserves that defense so anyway truly don't think that that's what's going on here because it's not who Bob was Bob does care about children has his own children now grown but um but anyway okay so shall we move on to other phenomena in this neighborhood um yeah and so one one of the the only other thing that I definitely wanted to talk about is um that actually the gender madness seems to be falling apart I don't know if we want to go there next or or I would like to save that till last okay I think it's really important I was hoping we would talk about it I'm glad you uh you delved into it okay um but anyway I think I think it's a good uh book end for this great so I wanted to talk a little bit more about the week that just was including this massive release of files three million some documents uh in this latest tranche and I will give you my it's a great word by the way tranche yes do we all know it because of the big short I certainly I've no I've never run into it in another context I'm sure finite I know finance guys do but yeah people now use it but I have the sense that uh it uh it came from there but um I know finance people used to be for but anyway so here is the thing that I am trying to track as I'm watching this flood of discoveries in this massive tranche of mostly emails but not entirely there are audio files there's some video there is so much that is worth remarking on in these files that I think it is guaranteed that we will make the following error and I think we are making the following error collectively what's in the files is impossible to look away from except in a few strange cases where people seem to be prone to do that but there's so much present there that it looks whatever isn't there in other words we do not understand the relationship between what these files were we don't know what fraction of the actual sum total of the files it represents well I mean this was my question to you when you when having missed the release because I was blissfully in Texas moving chickens around moving chickens and dodging armadillos my question is is there any way to know what fraction this is like what what is the complete solution set we don't know that with that we don't know what fraction this is we don't know how the choosing happened we don't know if things were I mean obviously you know from just the one email that we've talked about here there was something that follows from that doesn't hear right right so there's this is this is this is this is very parts out selective branch as you say it is a selective branch and I the image in my mind is like a bunch of I don't know if they're bullet holes but something has put a bunch of holes onto a screen and what you can see is the outline that there was a person standing in front of it right the places where there are no so the point is we can see the part we can see what we can't see is the part that we can't see obviously but the implication you know why why did we go through all of this nonsense where we were being told that there was nothing important in the files that we were imagining this like what even was that and can we fire cash but tell already like I don't understand obviously he's not on our side for some reason is he compromises he afraid I don't know but he can't do the job so anyway keep in mind that as you focus on the things that we're focusing on all of which is understandable that we would be focused on it that you need to remember that this is very likely a game in which you're being fed certain things in order that you not notice the things you don't have and I would say one of the patterns in on so I'm wrestling with what is here and what story it tells about what isn't here and one of the things that I think is becoming clear and we can talk about you know Mike Benz was on Joe Rogan talking about this and he talked about his own process for remembering things he has like an encyclopedic access to a bunch of factual data the rest of us struggle to keep track of any he talks about how he does it never mind the particulars he basically describes having a structure in mind and fitting things to it so my I felt a resonance with what he described because I also think I carry around a model of what I think is going on in the universe whether it's biology stuff or whether it's you know human political stuff but I have a loose sense of what I think is going on and every time I see something that fits I add it and every time I see something that doesn't fit it's even more important because then the point is huh is that thing not right or is my model not right am I missing something here and it tells you kind of where to spend your time so one of the things that patterns that I think is emerging as people are sorting through this stuff and posting posting posting you know have you seen this have you seen that is there is an awful lot of bench all of the things that we have feared without proof of much and that pattern I suspect is not an accident I think it is the result of two things one the people that Epstein was interacting with were mostly sophisticated in the sense that they are aware they think in terms of legal discovery and so while they can't help themselves sometimes they generally avoid putting things in print that could come back to haunt them later in a lawsuit so that's one of the reason that's the more organic reason but the other reason I suspect is that aside from a few people who are seemingly deliberately being thrown under the bus what we are I think being given is supposed to satisfy a see we were right without allowing anything to change right that's the thing Goliath is the force that opposes all meaningful change and you can imagine that Goliath has been forced to cough up more than he would like to about whatever the Epstein operation was but that he would like to change as little as possible so we are in a negotiation that we didn't ask for we in the public feel like this is not a negotiation we are entitled to know what this was we are entitled to know all of it victims are entitled to be heard to be compensated to be validated and not ghastlet and this tranche as much as there is important stuff in it isn't doing the job because you know the smoking guns are mostly not there right but again it's designed the fraction that we are seeing is designed to give us enough that we will feel that we've fun you know messy finally forced the stuff into the open which he did but he forced them to cough up a fraction that they were in charge of and that's that's the overarching message that I'm getting so I wanted to just point out a few things that show up here that I think are potentially meaningful one of them is the phenomenon of well-positioned people talking in coded language that is known to be connected to pedophilia is conspicuous so the number of places in which pizza is discussed here is large it has exactly the same feel as the padesta emails where it certainly seems to point to the worst possible stuff going on in and around Epstein on his island that maybe at his ranch I hadn't even heard of his ranch until now but apparently had a very large ranch anyway but maybe we should look at some of these pizza emails so here's one from Roy Hodges I don't know who that is he says I wanted to let you know that the crew really appreciated the pizza today thank you for letting us do that okay so that could be innocent but kind of unusual to talk about pizza and here's one redacted who it's from is redacted says this is better than a Chinese cookie see attached let's go for pizza and grape soda again no one else can understand go no so grape soda is apparently also a code word now of course you know is there any chance at all that this is actually a discussion of pizza and grape soda I suppose you have to leave that possibility open but it's not plausible and mind you this is after those of us who have understood you know I've been saying forever look the problem with the pizegate story is that there are two pizegate stories and one of them is ridiculous and the other one isn't but when you attempt to talk about the fact that actually there is something troubling in the pizest of emails and all of the rest of it the point is oh you you know you believe some ridiculous story I guess you're you know you're a mental lightweight yeah okay you want to show the next one okay this one is from redacted two Jeffrey Epstein it says you mean radiating a soft glow by the way there's this weird equal sign that shows up in a lot of these I don't under it's like a font issue yeah that may just be the way it's been like optically optical character scanned whatever whatever it is so you mean radiating a soft glow with the look of bliss and excitement yeah that's the pizza what right this does sound like somebody responding to an email from Jeffrey Epstein with the subject the pizza monster oh the pizza monster of course um all right we have another one of these that's it no okay so anyway the point is if you have been thinking and saying hey there is pedophilia going on here this is not just you know inappropriately young women this this is about the abuse of children then the answer is well you feel vindicated looking at this stuff on the other hand it's yet more totally creepy discussion of pizza and grape soda and so it runs through your fingers like water so again it's like perfectly designed to satisfy the people who have been saying look you have to look here and other people have been telling them you're imagining it and then it's like no I wasn't imagining it see it shows up right here again it's like okay yeah but what we need is prosecutions right we need people who do these things to be locked away forever this is tantalizing it's not evidence yeah it's it's actually I mean I run a glute's titillating right it's yeah it would be evidence if it were connected to something else but it on its own it's not sufficient to to cross any burden um okay so other things that show up in the files are okay here's one you want to put up the email from the redacted person where they talk about the torture video okay so this is from a redacted person to Jeffrey Epstein on February 4th 2004 I mean February 24th April sorry it is February this email is from April 24th of 2009 it says where are you are you okay I love the torture video it's from Jeffrey Epstein to her active person now of course that validates the sense that many of us have that this probably even goes beyond the sexual abuse of children and onto torture and maybe murder but again have you ever given torture metaphorically of course everybody uses that word metaphorically sometimes so is this incriminating not on its own it's not um but you know and that's 2009 was it yeah now in 2026 so much of porn apparently is you know actually actually involves at least mild forms of torture pain and pain induction BDSM that you know the dude was disgustingly ahead of his time is one of the is one of the interpretations yeah okay so all right you want to put up the Bitcoin one so Bitcoin shows up in a bunch of these emails in a way that I think matches the same kind of pattern so this is from April 25th 2015 from Jeffrey Epstein to Jochie Eto and I'm having trouble understanding who wrote what but it says the way that Bitcoin is organized currently is that there are five core developers and around 100 contributors to the core code the five core developers are like Linus Torvalds or the Linus Torvalds of Linux they decide what changes are made to the core code one of the five is the lead developer Vladimir and his chief scientist Gavin Gavin Vladimir and Corey an important contributing developer were being paid out of a nonprofit organization called the Bitcoin Foundation a few weeks ago it blew up one one of the board members declared the foundation bankrupt many organizations scrambled to step into the vacuum created the foundation and take control in quotes of the developers we moved quickly and the three developers decided to join the media lab that's the MIT media lab presumably this is a big win for us okay so there's certainly plenty of discussion around the capture of Bitcoin here we have discussions and this is far from the only bit of it you know in this new tranche of the Epstein files on the other hand what does it actually say well enough to give the people who think that there is something nefarious going on something to chew on but not enough to make the case now I do think Bitcoin is down a bit today maybe because of this but but nonetheless it has more of this it gives you something to keep you busy but it doesn't go where it would need to go yeah all right and I will also say that one of the things that I noticed in these emails is the I just don't even know how to describe it other than a kind of stench of Jewish supremacy and it's disgusting but nonetheless it's sort of here in black and white so here you want to put up the email to I guess Roger Shank it's February 23rd of 2009 starts by sorry the one doesn't really matter but they keep on being on Friday it turns out they do I've tried swapping months and it does not work yeah um this is the way the Jew it's not well written this is the way the Jew yes this is from Jeff Rebson this is the way the Jew make money and made a fortune in the past 10 years selling short and shipping futures selling short the shipping futures selling short the shipping futures let the goyum deal with the real world okay so I've seen some discussion um the goyum is an epithet yes I didn't know that oh yeah it's haha that's interesting because I have I have been referred to as over the goyum by various people I never took it as an epithet um it's an epithet it can be said uh yeah it can be said ironically so it's one of these words that context matters a lot but it's definitely an epithet um Gentile is different and Shixah is different Shixah is an epithet yeah so anyway um so then this last email shows the same pattern this is from Jeffrey Epstein's email account uh JEE vacation at Gmail to Peggy Siegel subject re Yacht slut he says no goyum in abundance JPMorgan execs brilliant wasps okay and then the question he's responding to is is it going to be a hundred percent juneite even perlman and yum yum has some goyum I'm getting my quote media elite list uh exact out for saturday and we'll email some names what about Charlie Rose love him what about chain fonda my new best friend nothing like an ex juhator with a Jewish boyfriend to mix it up peg all right so this goes on but nonetheless um you are listening in to private conversations that were not intended to be viewed by anybody else nonetheless it's damning that this is the way they are talking and frankly I think it's actually central to what's going on because to the extent that what we clearly have is a hyper entitled network of people who feel they have the right to abuse others obviously this is connected to the sense that you and they are not the same right so the idea that you have supremacists the rules are different the rules are different because those other people aren't really people and obviously the west is based on the exactly inverse interpretation that everybody and frankly Christianity is too the fundamental dignity of people is central and to the extent that anybody is exempting themselves from uh from this agreement it's not surprising to find them taking advantage of anyone and everyone else so um what will we be able to prove from this not much what does it confirm about what we suspected a lot but not you know maybe the point is this gives you a preponderance of the evidence without crossing reasonable doubt maybe that's I think I think that's right I think that's it I think that's exactly right yes now okay on on several fronts yes on on a number of fronts but I mean that's an interesting gap that gap should have a name the one between preponderance of the evidence and reasonable doubt because a lot of probably does his yeah probably does good if it doesn't um so one last thing before we leave the Epstein files is I wanted to talk about what I think Mike Ben's posed a very good challenge in his Joe Rogan uh conversation which came out in the last couple days um do you want to show his discussion of the blackmail question I've never been convinced that the central role of the Epstein young girl uh in my view sidebar of the Epstein money laundering story is uh is that it was for blackmail I and part of this is because the moment Jeffrey Epstein formally officially threatened somebody with blackmail and that person tells his wife and that wife tells her friends and that gets out to somebody else that knows Jeffrey Epstein Jeffrey Epstein's access goes away overnight that's the sort of thing that even a rumor of that spreading and nobody else is gonna want to do business with them so you think people just assume it's blackmail because that is how you would blackmail someone especially underage girls I think it is very possible that there could have been indirect blackmail meaning Epstein passes it on to an intelligence service to uh you know to a corporate espionage client or something um and they use that for their own purposes but even then I mean imagine for example if you know like on the Bill Gates thing like there was an you know Bill Gates gets an email I have a video of you sleeping with this person and you know or somebody much lower level the moment they send that to the press if you know in order to they figure they have nothing to lose I mean there's not been anybody in the seven years that's transpired who said I've been I was personally blackmailed by Jeffrey Epstein I think because the moment you do that nobody comes to your parties anymore nobody you lose all the access you lose all the deal flow you lose all the goodwill that you've generated because this rumor people are very risk averse especially at that level right but just to have it over their head and never use it though right well I think well I think that what you could have is because he does his own nefarious stuff he could compile it so that if they ever go out if they ever threaten him with something he's now got something on them I honestly can't tell which position Benz is taking he seems to be taking both positions what he is saying is that the explanation that many of us have explored that this was a blackmail operation designed to capture Compromot for the point for the purpose of steering anything and everything in the world yes that that does not add up because if you attempted to execute once on the blackmail the rest of what you had banked would or your ability to bank more at least would have apparate so that seems like a generic so hey he does seem to also argue that it is or maybe it's just what Joe is saying to him is maybe Joe is responding the way I was like I can't tell what you're saying man you're saying this you're saying that but it seems like that's an argument against blackmail always isn't it well in any sort of operation an operation yeah an operation so they're two so I'm again this is where I think it is important to see pieces of evidence figure out if they fit the model you're playing with to the extent that they don't see if the model needs adjusting if the evidence isn't what it appears that sort of thing and so I get two possibilities from what I think is actually a very good question that Vince is pointing to so the question is how could you build a Compromot collection project that didn't blow itself up on first use one thing he says and then he doubts it because it doesn't really add up much better is that Epstein could forward whatever he's got to somebody else but it's still it's got the same problem it's got the same problem yeah so here's what I want to propose as a model that I think satisfies Ben's I don't know how you pluralize Ben's Ben's challenge to that model but also bits all of the evidence that this looks like an operation to accumulate Compromot right including the fact that in in the files are things in which we actually get to hear Epstein and frankly it's kind of a mental lightweight he's not deep he's not deep somebody described him as the amazing scientist saying you're around him because of that because of his insights right and yeah they're humoring him the good ones are humoring him maybe there are some fakers among the scientists who don't understand that he's not deep but whatever okay so here's the model I want to propose that what Jeffrey Epstein was doing was a control architecture designed to ensnare people across discipline and zones of business and the way it worked was he dragged people in he figured out what people what limits that they would push that would compromise them in other words he created an environment in which people seem to feel no concern about doing awful things and he dragged people in as far as they would go so that where they were was way beyond their own normal standard right that they did things that they then couldn't defend and that the control mechanism comes from the thing like imagine that you were an affiliate of this and you and I never would find ourselves in that position but somebody who would allow themselves to let their guard down and say things that they shouldn't say like Bob or do things they shouldn't do like all of these people who went to the island they then live in fear oh was he recording that stuff so the point is they self censor and they become very sensitive to the message about what it is that whatever it is that was running Epstein believes about the world here are the positions that we hold and so the point is they become eager to please the thing that has got them with their guard down having done things that aren't defensible and then telling them oh here's our position on this that or the other to able to steer people without actually blackmailing right because people will fear further another piece of this model would be that it is willing to ratchet up that it is willing to embarrass people by to the extent somebody is not responding to the message about what it is that Epstein and his friends want to happen in the world that something slightly embarrassing emerges on you first so shot across the bow so anyway I guess I don't know how good this model is but the idea is it would explain the fact that we don't have I think any credible examples in which this thing is actually blackmailing people yet it seems to be a blackmail accumulation enterprise yet I at least haven't heard another alternative hypothesis that is more explanatory you know he Epstein wasn't doing this in order to you know treasure a bunch of the world's rich people out of the goodness of his heart right that's not what was going on no it wasn't what was going on his the fact that he was a shockingly rich guy is mysterious as Eric points out regularly it does not add up that he made a fortune it seems like somebody handed him a fortune so it looks like an operation it looks like an operation to collect a compromise on people it looks like it has like it's a fractal right you have you have everything from you know embarrassing shit said in emails through what looks like it is likely to involve the actual abuse of actual children torture maybe murder so it looks like it has every level of depth and that's actually if you were trying if you're real point with money and power in the world and the idea was all of that stuff was a means to an end to gain power to gain leverage and you couldn't blackmail because you'd blow the whole thing up then it would look something like this where the idea is it's really people you're aligning their incentive to be of like mind with you about whatever it is you're trying to accomplish in the world if the answer is oh now's the moment to pump Bitcoin right if the person that has the goods on you is suddenly wild about Bitcoin how hard is it for you to leap on the hey I'm another wild about Bitcoin person right so anyway that's kind of what I'm getting from this I don't see a lot of proof I see a lot of confirmation of stuff right of you know not a trivial kind of important kind but but mostly what I get is that we still haven't nailed the structure its purpose and most importantly we still don't know what role it has been playing in our history and I think you know I I forgot in all of the preparing for this morning I forgot to dig up my own tweet where I said effectively I think Trump is negotiating with us over Epstein this is not negotiable there are no higher priorities because I really think that that's true whatever this thing was is playing some role in our ability to govern ourselves at a global scale that we don't know right I mean you crane shows up here I've been saying forever somehow that's more than just a war that's a that's a place to empty the American treasury into you know into a black hole in the universe it's a potential source for humans to traffic it's a potential source for organs we don't know what it is we only know that it's sacred and we're not allowed to challenge it or we become you know you know Putin's friends right so anyway we need to know yesterday what role this is playing in our lives because it's big and this confirms that it's big but it doesn't tell us how it's big and it doesn't tell us how big yeah yeah all right can we do one of the thing before we get to yeah the one of the thing is I wanted to point to something I think it may actually be from just before last week but nonetheless it's so in keeping with what the hell are we living through that I wanted to show it so this is a video of the new CEO of tiktok describing his upgraded procedure for keeping people safe from hate or something we made a change to designate the use of the term Zionist as a proxy for a protected attribute as hate speech so if somebody were to use Zionist of course you can you can use it in the in the sense of your proud Zionist but if you're using it in the context of degrading somebody calling somebody a Zionist as a as a dirty name then that gets designated as hate speech to be moderated against over the course of 2024 we tripled the amount of accounts that we were banning for hateful activity we also have I think over two dozen Jewish organizations that are constantly feeding us intelligence and information when they spot violent of trends there is no finish line there's no finish line to moderating hate speech identifying hateful trends trying to keep the platform safe there's no such thing as an end game all right so I find that chilling um for one thing there's an echo in there of the worst of woke sure right where he says you know there's no finish line right the fight against racism will never be over right that's what they used to say and the answer is you're creating an environment in which you have license to take liberties and you've you've written a set of rules to the game in which we don't even you know we don't even get to ask you we'll have you accomplish the goal yet because you've already told us well that's not ever going to happen I'm always going to have the right to use there's no end game this will never be over our rules may change at any moment that's that's at our whim right and and as long as we call it hate speech we win right I can I can use the word Zionist but you can't and I will tell you um don't mean that between you and me but I mean that's what he's effectively saying and I will say uh in using well no I could I could use it about myself if I if I felt that I was as I could say that I am you can use it in a positive context and you can't use it in a negative one right which is insane for one thing you have a bunch of people who are proudly using that term for themselves now I will just say for my part I have been very cautious about that term because of the uh linguistic flexibility that it seems to accompany it right it can mean I think it can mean three things um it does get used by people who hate Jews for whatever reason and it gets used as a synonym right that's synonym for Jew um it is used in a technical way for the movement that initially pushed for the creation of Israel and uh defends it in its effectively current form and it seems to be used for a radical plan that goes by the name of greater Israel uh in which Israel is bigger than its current borders right so I don't like the term because there's always it doesn't have to read upon definition it doesn't have an agreed upon definition but to the extent that people who hold one of these positions are describing themselves with that term I have to be liberated to use that term too and I'll make my caveat but the point is if you're defining your team that way then I get to say things about your team using the same term it can't be a magic term so there there can't be magic terms yeah there can't be magic terms right um and you know it does you know let's um I mean I when you told me about this and you know I'm not going to say it on air because I don't feel like it but I said to you this is the end word yeah right um and you know I feel in the same way about um cunt I don't like it when I hear that word coming out of men's mouths I don't like it when I hear it coming out of women's mouths yeah but uh it's not protected it's not but it's usually special it's there's no it's not magic it's not magic there there are no magic words any word everyone can use any word they want and let you know let us reveal ourselves let us reveal who we are yeah I agree with that and let me just say look I don't want to be called a kike I don't want to hear other people call the kike but I do want people to have the right to use the word because the world in which words get forbidden is not a good world our founders well understood that and so anyway I mean the the tenuous agreement that long existed over the word nigger and the permutation nigger that tenuous agreement was informal right and at an informal level you could say yes you could understand that no I'm not saying it was understandable no I'm saying it was understood culturally we we all knew the rules in which the over the game which we were playing and also that we could opt out but that people would know that we were opting out of that game well and the point is there's opting out and there's other things that might superficially seem like it but aren't right so the point is it was agreed or decades that you were not allowed to use that word in earnest and that black people were you allowed to use it for what they wanted yeah informally it wasn't a rule you weren't going to be ruined if you violated the rule but it was understood however the ability to discuss the word existed the ability to include it in a script in which it was necessary for historical authenticity was allowed the ability you know to read Huck Finn was there the ability to sing along with Bob Dylan in hurricane was there the point is it had a natural boundary which is not allowed to use the word in earnest but to the extent that it is a word that has to be discussed or described or whatever the you know in good faith you can use it as needed but don't go out of your way to use it and don't use it in earnest yeah right but the point is that ship has sailed a long time ago and the prosecution effectively of people for using it in ways that were at one time clearly tolerated has broken the dam and now we have Zionism of all terms like an actual historical fact yeah right a movement that we can't discuss unless we're on board with it like what you don't get to write a rule like that it just it's intolerable because it breaks logic right it makes it impossible we can't you know it's like having that's no barrier it is to me but you know it's like you cannot forbid me from talking about Bradley Manning and his turning over of documents to WikiLeaks just because Bradley now wishes to be referred to his Chelsea and I can adhere to calling Bradley Chelsea now but I can't go back into history and pretend he was Chelsea then because he wasn't yes right so anyway I don't know what the hell is going on with tic toc but it is insane that that presser whatever his name is feels like he's speaking coherently that's the CEO yeah CEO of tic toc it feels like he's speaking coherently there where he's obviously advertising dystopia that he is now uh in acting pioneering like come on you don't get to do that we we have we don't think anyone is pioneering dystopia at this point I mean lots of little new pioneering like in innovations little ones little little ones all parallel all happening at the same time yeah all happening at the same time well dystopian innovations across the board across the land the more AI enabled that the dystopian pioneers become the more we will discover what the true limits of dystopia are fantastic should we go back to William Butler Yates then always a good plan all right so here's here's a silver life okay I guess I think I think so actually I was I we didn't get to last week but before you know over a week ago there was this announcement um local to us not super super local but uh local ish all that don't do my screen yet because my computer is freaking out okay now now you can if you feel like it if you can this is in I don't even know where was this published um serial times health reporter I think this is in serial times maribridge children's hospital to close gender clinic so this is published on January 27th of this year this is here in the puget sound west the cascades and they're a very very blue part of arsford and state and um just a couple of paragraphs here maribridge children's hospital and decoma plans to shut down this gender clinic this week under mounting federal pressure to ban all gender affirming health care for trans youth hospital leaders announced a decision in a monday memo to employees writing that quote recent developments at the federal level threatened to halt medicaid and medicare programs uh payments to the entire molde care health system which owns maribridge if it continues to offer gender affirming health services to minors this was an incredibly painful decision and one that i wish we did not have to make multi-care CEO bill robertson wrote in the memo which the hospital shared with the serial times we recognize how important this care is to our gender health clinic patients and have a sense of the impact this will have on these patients and their families and quote but without federal medicaid medicare payments for our president continued quote our organization would cease to exist and quote are currently the hospital more than 60 percent of all maribridge patients were land medicaid known as apple health in washington maribridge cut its gender clinic wait list of about 150 families in september confirming them that the clinic would continue to serve those who were already receiving gender affirming medication like hormone therapy and purity blockers but would not start any new medical treatment this week's news means cutting off care to the clinics remaining patients roughly 320 young people including a hundred eighty under eighteen who will now have to get their prescriptions renewed or find gender affirming your mental health elsewhere and it goes on but uh you know the the language here is insane gender affirming health care gender affirming medication uh no um at best fantasy affirming medication at best right mental instability affirming medication celebration of mental illness medication right that's what they're not going to be doing for these many children and other young people anymore but only at this point end of janduary under duress from uh from the trauma administration from the federal government who said we're going to cut off medicaid medicaid payments unless you cease and exist um you you gotta stop so if i can oh actually um yeah maybe we can just go right here um to then this week uh just uh just yesterday i believe for very third we have here the american society of plastic surgeons makes a position statement as the asps the very first major medical organization and it may just be the very first medical medical organization full stop uh to put out a position statement on gender surgery for children adolescents uh the summary of which is the clinical management of children and adolescents presented with gender dysphoria or gender incongruence has undergone rapid change and asps again the american society of plastic surgeons wishes to offer guidance to members providing gender surgery services for this population this position statement discusses the views of the american society of plastic surgeons on breast chest genital and facial gender surgery for individuals under the age of 19 funny the summary doesn't say what their position statement is they're still hiding they're still hiding here but you have to scroll you have to scroll you have to scroll um you know caveat after caveat after caveat hiding behind what they've already said explaining why they didn't come to this sooner finally the asps position asps recommends that surgeons delay gender related breast chest genital and facial surgery until a patient is at least 19 years old it's too little too late but it's utterly necessary and it's about time right it's it's like the changes to the child vaccine schedule oh my god we get a lot further to go but good this they they're making no statement they're the association for the society of plastic surgeons so maybe they wouldn't have any say about the endocrinological interventions but with regard to surgery which is after all their bailiwick they're saying until you hit 19 excuse me until you hit 19 you shouldn't have facial feminization or I guess masculineization but I've never heard of that happening maybe that happens although that's that would be adding rather than subtracting so we that's not as easy to do um genital or or or top surgery what is called top surgery uh so again too little too late and they hedge and they hedge and they hedge and they explain themselves away um about which I have very little patience but they ultimately get there and then in the wake of this if you can show the um the national review in the wake of this asps uh statement position statement asked the AMA what uh they thought and the AMA the American medical association said in a statement a national review that because quote the evidence for gender affirming surgical intervention and minors is insufficient for us to make definitive statement the AMA agrees with asps that surgical interventions and minors should be generally deferred to adulthood the AMA supports quote evidence-based treatment and quote including other types of gender affirming care for minors the organization added and that screenshot is part of a tweet that I believe it was lear superior uh had in which he says the American Medical Association agrees with the asps about surgeries if the AMA was wrong about surgeries could it also have been wrong about hormones uh you know good question of course they are and as as uh lear superior knows very well um you know he's he's on the side of reality and and and and and and moral rightness uh in this in this fight has been from the beginning um so what's happening it has felt like it was happening for a long time and I have been suspicious that there that that there would be clawing back and you know it's not over by any means I guess I mean the other big piece of news which I actually didn't don't have a screenshot of or a direct reference to is that the first lawsuit uh providing um basically I can't think of any legal terms at the moment uh the restitution that's not the right word uh to someone who uh got transitioned uh because their parents were told that if if they didn't uh they would commit suicide has received I think two million dollars in in damages yep uh so so all of this is happening you know a couple years after we have the cast report out of England uh after you know after oh wait after so many people have been working so hard at revealing the truth for so long but frankly the ASPS the American Society of Plastic Surgeons surgeons actually coming out of with a position statement week as it is is hugely important and among other things the ACLU among other once important and now deeply corrupt organizations cannot continue to claim that all of the medical organizations support gender affirming care which um by the way most many of us have been objected to that term gender affirming care forever this was again uh mental instability affirming care at best yes and I will point out as we've talked about before it is actually not just offensive and absurd but it is linguistically insane it's as gender denying as it is gender affirming of course right you're affirming one gender and denying biology uh while denying who you are abandoning your own identity in the name of creating identity yeah so anyway it was obscene and I agree with you like I cannot stand the fact that we're gonna be merely mouthed about reversing our position now well here's all you only got to it now in 2024 the evidence wasn't all in so yeah we're all really busy we have lots of stuff on our desk so we've been maiming children you know because uh this just hadn't got up to the top of the pile just what we're doing and what what could you do um but I want to point out a couple things one once again the institutions are brought to reality kicking and screaming they can no longer sustain their stupid fiction and so the public and its understanding is dragging the institution so that they will finally acknowledge this is the exact inverse of what experts and authorities are supposed to be it's not supposed to be that we wake up and force the New York Times to report shit it's supposed to be that they actually have a bunch of people are trying to figure out what's going on and send them into the field and look we're not supposed to be dragging the you know medical societies to the recognition of biology right to their supposed take that on board as part of their mission so the fact that this is trailing is one thing worth noticing once again the public has woken up to the obvious well ahead of the institutions and the institutions are only coming around once they can no longer sustain their lives. Second thing is okay this is the second time that we were seeing this inside of a couple months yep right climate like we started turning around on climate because you know what the race is on we're going to need energy for AI now you know let's so let's figure out every kind of energy we could have you know we oil is good there's a lot of energy in there and hey nuclear that's pretty fancy so the point is well we can't very well go sustaining our mythology that allowed us to intimidate you and control you and get you to fight each other because actually we now have a new agenda that is incompatible with the story we've been giving you for decades right so there's that too and then the third thing is okay here we're seeing zero as a special number right the fact that the dominoes will start to fall the dominoes are starting to fall because the last thing you want to do is be the last person on board with the new reality which is hope we were naming children we stopped hey we were early yeah that's the thing we were early you know we were ahead of the you know a mirror and we did do it for years right and we did know exactly what we were doing because how could you not but we stopped can't you congratulate us for stopping right which also reminds me of COVID right they were literally kind of middle ground scrambled this is a middle ground scramble and they're trying to formulate the position in which will now we understand that the data isn't quite as persuasive as we once thought it was about the blah blah blah blah blah and the answer is no you mother fuckers you were naming children for money and you had a cover story and it was false and we've been telling you that and you've been ignoring and you're still not owning up to what you did and frankly your cover story it was lots of cover stories and some of them maybe all of them were completely despicable threatening parents with the idea that their child would commit suicide unless you maimed them I don't I don't know what's more disgusting to do to a parent it's oh I have a choice between you know what this is what people would say I could either have you know a dead son or a live daughter right or you know usually the other way around but you know bullshit it was always bullshit and the fact that people would people young people who were confused about their own identity who are going through the throes of adolescence as everyone does in a world where they had been told that they could and probably they should they would certainly get a lot more social cache if they did so I'm decided they were the opposite sex they knew that the magic words to say to their parents in order to get their gender affirming care which is to say their mental instability affirming care it's actually what it was was mom dad I'm gonna kill myself if you don't let me do this so this was a disgusting tactic that was created by who knows who and then spread like wildfire across a population that was then duly maimed by plastic surgeons the professional organization of which is finally saying yeah actually maybe wait at least until you 19 because then at least they get to sign their own paperwork right like there's no there's obviously nothing magical that happens on your 19th on your 19th birthday no that's probably that's probably actually it is the idea is if you're a kid and somebody courses your parent into consenting to maiming you one can imagine the lawsuit in which you say hey I had a right not to be maimed and you lied to my parent whereas if you sign a bunch of stuff that says there in the fine print if you know just tell the squint at it well then the answer is well we did tell you that yeah even if you know even if you got your first cross sex hormone prescription after a half an hour conversation with a person you'd never met before which we know happens over and over and over again and in some cases we're then directed to the pipeline for surgery for cross sex surgery which isn't a thing but gender destroying surgery right away as well well if you're legal in adult then it's a kind of liability protection yeah actually I think I think it is yeah there's a lot to say here but the fact is they knew they're not telling us a true story and it is you know it's a ghastly crime against humanity you know I wanted to add one thing which is I just want people to take a moment to put themselves in the shoes of a normal parent who loves their child finds that their child is troubled which is very easy to be in a world that makes us little senseless this and your child is convinced that they might be trans and the doctor is telling you well wouldn't you rather have a live daughter than a dead son think about what that does to you if you're afraid if you've got a troubled child you have to be afraid of suicide right it happens a lot so you're thinking oh a doctor has just told me that suicide is likely if I don't consent to this I will literally not be able to live with myself if I say no but even if I think that's the right thing to do for my child that's my instinct I'm not an expert and what if I say no and then the worst happens which it might how well I live with myself how will I live with myself so the answer is you default into whatever intervention you say about at least I've done what I can and the point is actually what you did is consent to have a doctor maim your child and it is your job not to do that but it is also understandable how experts who represent themselves as knowing something about your child's mind and what might help it can trick people into doing this yes I mean they're destroying people and families and anyway I think it makes sense to spend a minute in those parent shoes because it is not a comfortable place to be no no not at all all right full stop I have one do you have it more there's one last little thing I want to say before we sign off okay let's do your thing and then I have a little correction do you sure you don't want to do that first so if what we just talked about no okay yeah um so last week I introduced a new project on natural selections my sub-stack COVID era stories you can show my screen here if you like and and just read the the invitation to contribute stories the responses but remarkable thank you we've received many many many so far and yesterday I published the first one the symptoms I carry by Heidi Brandis it's extraordinary I recommend it we'll put a link to to the page in the show notes and I continue to encourage stories um both because you might want to see them published and you know we aren't going to publish everything that we receive um but we will publish many of them I will publish many of them but also because the act of writing about things that you experienced is often legitimately therapeutic and it's on right excellent all right I haven't ready yet I'm excited about the project it's fantastic I will say that this first story that we that we ran um doesn't involve uh death or injury from COVID or the vaccine but it's it describes deep destruction of relationship which is something that so many of us experienced all right um my little correction in our recent discussion of the credit shooting in Minneapolis we talked about the issue of the accidental discharges of the p320 uh that's all and I got something wrong which many people pointed out which is I said it has a light trigger that's not correct what appears to be the case is the failure to be drop safe was the result of the fact not that the trigger spring was light but that the trigger itself was too heavy and carried momentum that is not relevant to the accidental discharge that may have happened before the shooting of prety however there is still plenty of evidence which you can find yourself online of accidental discharges that are not based on a drop there's one video I saw yesterday of six police officers attempting to arrest a young man who is resisting they are uh trying to get him handcuffed and one of their guns goes off in its holster not having been removed nobody touching it um so anyway the problem of accidental discharge is still potentially relevant to the prety shooting it is not the light trigger that would have caused it uh enough people pointed it out that I just wanted to make sure uh that if you were misled by my presentation now you know what I know awesome but I now know is what I mean but you know no yep um all right uh we will be back here same time next week check out our sponsors which were crowd health time well no no what were they we had some confusion clear armra and crowd health yes and um we appreciate you our audience very very much appreciate you subscribing liking sharing things that you find here full episodes clips that are amazing producer jenna's putting out all the time and until you see us next time you go to the ones you love eat good food and get outside be well everyone