Ep 576: Harvard to F-15C Pilot to 53rd Wing Commander - Col "CAP" Gunn

One's ready. Point's on you. Go. I wasn't born to be average. I was born to be extraordinary. So I got to pull the trigger. Doing everything that's necessary. Sometimes it gets scary. Sometimes it gets lonely. But I still got to push through. I got to craft and I will hone it. Another damn when I own me. But I'm not their blade. I'm an independent powerhouse. And I will stare him in the face. As I take what is mine. I start to think I'm insane. Deluxe at me like I'm crazy, but I don't care anyway I'm just really doing what I got to do, and I got no plan to quit So I just gotta keep rocking, and you know that's what it is Every shot that I do, not take, I am guaranteed to miss So I better grab that rifle, and start lining up the hits Everybody welcome back to the ones ready podcast you're in the team room We have a special guest today the 53rd wing commander Colonel Cap gun sir appreciate you joining us Hey, thanks for having me peaches. Yeah, absolutely. So you have got a A long career would is which has placed you as the 53rd wing commander So let's kind of start from the beginning. What made you want to join the Air Force especially I mean you've got a bachelor's degree in mathematics from Harvard. So did you always want to join the Air Force and fly? Yeah, so I think probably a bit of watching Star Wars and Top Gun too much when I was younger Made me pretty interested in it and spend most of my youth kind of wanting to join the military And I got away from it a little during high school and then in college I played I was a walk-on for freshman football at Harvard My dad had played there many many years before and it was it was I really want to play I loved football still love football but I was as a walk-on and I was funny when when I was in the In the locker room once the coach is talking to the team and he said hey I'm looking for Athletes that are also students not necessarily students that are athletes and as he said that I swear he looked directly at me And I realized I was in the category of students who were also decent athletes and not the other way around so It was a great season, but afterwards After after after getting a chance to play I Was looking for something else because I knew that that was probably not I could I had a choice to either like dedicate myself to football for the rest of my college career Or not and and I decided that there were a lot of other things to experience during college And so I chose a different path, but then I was trying to figure out I well I got to do something and I I figured I either wanted to research physics Get into politics or fly aircraft and so I Wasn't sure which way that was that was gonna go the politics thing turned out to not be the reaction I wanted to go to So I ended up it was between researching physics or becoming a pilot I figured I might be able to do those things in the Air Force and I wanted to be in the Air Force previously so I went and Talked to the ROTC recruiter and ended up joining ROTC at that point and then the rest is history so three three and a half years in ROTC at college and then Got a pilot slot towards the end of that and got commissioned and then rolled straight into pilot training pretty soon after after graduation Well, that's a that's a massive spectrum to go to fly Politician like research like that's a it's a wide swath of where you could have gone Yeah, there were definitely a few different paths. I think so one was I I Did not do as well in physics as I had hoped Ended up ended up having or being an elder in the semester that I think I was doing like quantum mechanics, too Which it turns out. Yeah, it's really neat Like I still love physics, but it turns out everything after that point is Based on that and I didn't remember anything from that semester So I decided to to find a different pack and then when I was trying to figure out what I wanted in the Air Force I There was a portion of me that they would definitely wanted to fly But honestly, I wanted the reason I joined it to join the Air Force to begin with was I wanted to Get that experience to learn how to be a leader Because I thought it would be good good training no matter where I went Whether it was staying in the Air Force for only four years to do to do something and then get out and track a different different career path Or if it was flying I did not find out until later that I think when I first started It was an eight-year commitment after pilot training and then while I was there it became a 10-year commitment after pilot training Which kind of helps make the choice for whether you want to stay on 20 or not certainly so I think that Was probably a good choice on on the Air Force as an institution in terms of trying to keep people around longer But in the end it worked out both where I decided that hey the best way to probably learn to lead and have Opportunities to lead maybe not early on in my career, but later on was to go the pilot route Which was honestly the driving factor kind of like You know student students are also good athletes or athletes who are good students I was hoping to be a leader that was a good pilot and not just a pilot who hoped to be a leader someday right and I So far they've both worked out whether I'm a good leader or good pilot I'll let everybody people that have flown in me or people that I'm leading tell you that but At least I've enjoyed doing what I'm doing Well, it is rare to see a wing commander who is either a bad leader or a bad pilot or both So I think you're probably doing all right, sir Open to make it Yeah, yeah So, you know air dominance at 15c Did you always kind of want to go the 15c route or I mean where did you have a couple options? That you you were like looking at I'd be happy to do either or Yeah, I mean one flying anything it was pretty awesome flying a fighter Pretty even more awesome at least in my book for my experiences It was kind of like I think growing up like at one point time I want to be a Navy SEAL one point I want to be an Apache pilot at one point Same thing in pilot training where I went through like hey Do I want to try and fly the strike eagle do want to try and fly the F-16 the F-15 or the A-10 and honestly growing up I had never really wanted to fly the F-15 see I thought like all the other airplanes at least when I was here like all those are pretty Pretty cool when I was in College I did an internship at Pratt and Whitney In East Hartford in Connecticut and then down in Orlando when they had their military portion down there And I I loved the F-22 and really thought that was just the coolest aircraft to have ever been built at the time It was still probably is Although I've never flown it But when I was in pilot training my I had a flight commander who was an F-15c pilot the second half of in T-38 so towards the end of pilot training and And he kind of called me in and took me aside and gave me his perspective which was obviously slightly Slightly biased towards the F-15c But two of the things he brought up was it's probably the best path to get to the F-22 And also just the opportunity to kind of get that the air-to-air perspective early on and and start His perspective was it is a more challenging Experience to kind of build that spatial 3d picture from the air-to-air fight that you can then apply to the air-to-ground effort later on Rather than trying to go the other route So that's between my desire to get to the F-22 eventually and that piece that was his recommend recommendation and so that's ultimately after lots of Interspection that's what I ended up going with which I think was the right decision Not because I ever got to fly the F-22, but I I mean it was a phenomenal aircraft I absolutely loved the first couple 12 years of my career when I was flying it Yeah, it's a phenomenal platform and it still does great things today Just you know whether we're talking about the F-15c or the strike eagle or the EX like it's it's going to continue to do great things so for listeners F-15c we're talking about a single seater your typical if F-15e is a two-seater so Talk it going back to your wanting to be a good leader and lead people How did being in a single seater doing air dominance missions kind of shape your leadership style? Whether it was just that that that piece or as we went later on and certainly Going through weapons school was probably the the Alternate experience of kind of the the way that my flying career helped shape my leadership approach to things So I'll kind of combine those two both the initial F-15c experience and then especially going through the weapons school in the F-15c And the weapons school piece I think it's transferable to pretty much any platform that goes through the program But even though it was not a crude aircraft you are always part of some sort of crew It just may be other aircraft that you're working together with so within your own formation I mean a two-ship is a basic formation for F-15c. We usually fight as four ships and then expanding beyond that to mission command where you're commanding eight eight F-15cs or Usually a collection of various other aircraft all working together and that's a piece that I think that and then the weapons school was very Formative in terms of my development as a leader the thing I got most out of weapons school because I went in thinking Hey, I want to be like the tactical expert, you know You see top god and you know You want to go out go out there and be able to fly and dogfight and do do a bit of anybody else And certainly that is that is an outcome of focusing on that so much where your weapons school But the bigger piece I got away. I took away from it was during the later portion during the mission employment falls Mission employment fights for us. I think it's a weapon school integration phase now was seeing the integration of a whole lot of Sorry Seeing the Seeing and being a part of the integration of a disparate number of platforms and and Operators in those platforms who need to come together for a single mission from a bunch of different backgrounds a bunch of different ways of approaching the problem And I had the opportunity to be the mission commander mission mission airborne mission commander and help lead the mission planning for one of the larger Fights fights that we had during weapons school and the opportunity to kind of help bring all that together and Take that and turn it into a cohesive and coherent mission Was probably the biggest the biggest learning that I get they I received out of it that I have carried on and used numerous times since in various working groups or or planning teams Right, and I'm so you went through in 08 correct If her right so I'm interested to see your opinion on this then and especially with things that we've had going on You know recently which you talk about the operation that we've had its all Integration is the name of the game like it is you don't make anything happen without being able to talk and integrate and coordinate and Deconflict from things that are going on right now and then You know back in back in 08 time frame I mean the the This weapons squadrons didn't During me was kind of the only time that they would integrate other than that they didn't really integrate that much but that is Certainly evolved now and we've recognized that that was you know There is still some of those silos a bit at the beginning you know we start talking about basic flight maneuvers and that kind of stuff but We are trying to integrate earlier and earlier on because what we've what's happened is we've recognized that Integration has to happen earlier because it's a it is a difficult game To to try and solve some of these problems that that are weapons officers and and other folks They're not weapons officers are out there solving are Incredibly difficult problems and that's something that you guys as the 53rd wing are trying to get after in terms of tests and Test of munitions test of aircraft test of TTPs and stuff like that. So how was recent events kind of Help changed and almost impact your LOE's at which we will get to your LOE is Yeah, I think so I think recent events highlight and exemplify the necessity of and what we can talk more about the LOE is later but and I Bridge to that from this but the integration piece So I think the place that and I mean the Air Force has always been integrated to some extent I mean you look back at the ranks for like the Revolution and military affairs in 90s and the reconnaissance strike complex the concept we stole from the Soviets, but the execution of it we did all on our own Where you've got a bunch of different siloed things that come together and that fusion of their capability interaction of their capabilities what really The you know delivers the combat Advantage that you got I Would say that we are we have been shifting more from Integration at like the very end the mission execution execution side and kind of like mission or integration by happenstance More and more to integration by design and integration Earlier on by the way that we prepare ourselves and shape ourselves Not not because of certainly not because of anything I've done But I think the whole community and the institution has moved that way for for definitely for better Because the challenges that we face and in the recent scenarios that we've got and certainly to other other scenarios We could face necessitate effective integration of the various elements that we've got I think I mean it's kind of a Probably a happy fallout from the lack of f-22 procurement That because we had so few of them and we kept our fourth gen aircraft around our f-15s f-16s Our strike yields for longer than we anticipated Especially the f-15c that it drove that integration Which I think had kind of knockoff effects that because that integration had to start earlier and earlier for the air superiority role that we started doing that more and more with with others and And that just kind of bridge now the great thing about coming into the 53rd wing and The advantage that I that I've got and more important unit has is I'm blessed with having a lot of the platforms that the Air Force has So not only do we have all the fighter platforms? We've got all the bomber platforms and then a lot of the Intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance or ISR platforms that the Air Force has both high altitude and penetrating and rpa's and that and what have you The opportunity to have all of those within one wing where we can integrate more readily is I think essential to not just make sure that the capabilities that were that are being developed and that we're helping deliver but also the tactics techniques and procedures or TTPs to Use those are developed with an integrated mindset. I will Excuse me. I will highlight that it is still a challenge though Because we are generally the Air Force is generally funded by platforms It is defines requirements by platforms not by integrated mission sets although there are a lot a number of efforts that are working at it to shift that because again the earlier you can get integrated whether it's at the requirements level the Enter the acquisition level the better chance you have of at least being technologically integrated and then it's just up to us as humans to figure out how we Operationally and or culturally integrate in order to deliver that combat capability. So I think It's an advantage that the wing has we've learned from the experience of the recent events as well as the last couple decades of what the Air Force has been doing And are striving to shift a Focus and a weight of effort of our test to make sure that the capabilities we are Fielding from or out of this wing are ones that are integrated earlier on Yeah, and I'd have to say you probably just just like the common other weapons school You probably have the fourth or fifth largest Air Force in the world just within your wing with Considered you've got almost all the fighters. If not all the fighters you've got bombers I can't remember. Did you say you have mobility aircraft as well? We do not have any mobility aircraft in the in the wing there are There is one there are a few pieces where I think we need to get integrated more with the mobility aircraft I think whether it's mobility aircraft or We also don't own the maintenance for a lot of our units We we're integrating to have relationships with host units just because we're a smaller fleet. So it you know returned or economies of scale dictate we probably shouldn't have our own and and that's That's completely reasonable. I understand why the Air Force would do that but I think whether it's logistics or Maintenance this gets to some extent into the LOE's that they were talking on one of them is focused on especially for our fighter force which are kind of a medium-range force that Historically because of the size and capability they have Are able to get fuel and get weapons faster than a bomber aircraft Which means they're generally closer to the threat, but they can also get back and forth faster so they they can provide a tempo of fighting force Unlike other assets. Well, one of the challenges would be closer is you're also in range of a number of enemies More enemy weapons than you would be being farther away. We see that certainly with Iran between ballistic missiles and cruise missiles and or UAS's and so I think I'm sure your audience and folks have heard about agile combat employment the Air Force is an attempt to kind of move the force around I think will become even even more Cognizant of that going future based upon lessons learned in the the current fight But to do that To do it really well, and I've seen this as we've exercised ace in various places You can exercise it with the operator and maybe the maintainer and it looks great because that's honestly not the hardest part It's everything behind it, but we generally have designed that logistics and sustainment piece from a perspective of a support element as opposed to a warfighting element that maneuvers with you and so well, I don't have I don't have mobility aircraft, and I don't have nor do I know clearly what Logistics ot there is per se because I don't think we really think of it from an operational test perspective I think there's great utility in us trying to grow that and we're we've got nascent efforts But if we really want to talk about kind of having elements of a maneuver force And you need that whole picture together kind of working together is that that maneuver arm Of the service how much how much we go there kind of remains to be seen whether we invest in it whether we really need it Kind of and where it's applicable is dependent upon what the command commands need now They want to use it so I'm not sure how far we're we're gonna go down that route But at least within the wing one of our LOEs is to to explore it research and figure out Whether it is an appropriate pathway and what what what it would look like to to try and do and what it looked like to Help to find requirements to drive the capabilities to be able to do that more effectively Yeah, and the thing is you know it does look great whenever we have You know a handful of pilots and a handful of maintainers out there at a remote airfield doing that kind of stuff but right now it's difficult to simulate or rehearse What it would actually be like because now it's it's kind of like a TDY or a cross-country movement is the way we're kind of treating it now and It because it's tough to replicate and and you're right the logistics train that goes behind that is it's pretty massive and You know we have exercises that are out there that are meant to you know practice that or or kind of Provide some friction points on on that logistics train, but until we actually end up doing it It's it's tough to replicate so so that's one of your LOEs. What's another one? So that's one another one is is impulse It will we've kind of been on a lethality because that's ultimately what we're trying to deliver is trusted lethality of the warfighter So that one's kind of a tempo lethality for that medium range type of fighter force Another one is impulse lethality which is focused on Kind of the the long-range kill chain Which I'm sure folks have heard about kind of that long-range strike as well as we've got nuclear WESUP among our other WESUP. So WESUP is weapons system evaluation program So now are we testing things that are coming online, but we're also responsible for making sure that the things we have munitions-wise so weapons air to air air to ground and The nuclear element as well we can effectively employ with operational units. So we help operation units go from basically Getting a munition out of the stockpile As appropriate getting it ready loading on the aircraft going out and employing in an operational relevant manner and then assessing it for whether that entire chain performed effectively and if that it did not Where there are places for for improvement. So we do that With operational units again for air to air air to surface as well as for a nuclear portion So that's a piece that fall falls under that that impulse lethality side as well to make sure that we We keep keep strong because we you know, what are the primary roles of the services strategic deterrence? Okay, I didn't realize that you guys cover that too that is a massive umbrella Of stuff that you have underneath your span of control Yeah, I was not tracking the nuclear WESAP side. I I also was till I showed up Yeah Funny how that happens. Well, it's so I was in the 53rd wing I was in the 4-2-2 test evaluation squad or not a Nellis back in 0708, which is our primary I would say fighter tactics Technics or tactics techniques and procedures TTP development arm of the 53rd wing As well as doing, you know, some Some technical test stuff, but a lot of like the tactics side Phenomenal, I was one of the best assignments of my life I absolutely absolutely loved it but I thought I understood what the 53rd wing did and I saw maybe this one tiny little wee little piece of it I was also, you know, it was a young captain at the time So certainly my and I went to a weapons school from there So my I was very very focused on a much smaller tactical bubble at the time and so now when I come back to it and realize I Did not see all the things that the that the wing actually did it is it was eye-opening for for me as well Which is which is pretty pretty fun to pretty fun to see Yeah, and that's you know, and that's part of the the growing up as well in the Air Force You know when you're when you're a captain or your staffs aren't senior ever You know your world is just your squadron and your mission and your expert You know your tactical or technical expertise. That's all that matters. Nothing else matters. Yeah, and then as you start to You know mature a bit and then get a couple extra assignments and maybe step out of your career field or or you get a staff job or something like that The your aperture opens. You're like, oh my gosh, there's a lot going on out here. I'm not the the only show in town I'm not the only you know career field that's doing amazing things There's a whole bunch of people that are doing some incredible things to make sure that the Air Force works to space force and that Operations that range work exercises tests and evaluation all that kind of stuff. It's it's eye-opening Yeah, it's I was blessed to to Be selected to do this role and it is it is my dream job without a doubt like I it's the I can't I can't imagine anything more fun and More rewarding than they get to to lead this wing A lot of it is just because we've got incredible folks throughout the the way and I am I'm mostly there to clear way roadblocks for them Because they know what they know what right looks like and they're going out there to do what they can to go do it as fast And as well as they can to keep keep moving things forward, which is great Along those lines, I mean one of the things that or another another one of our LOEs is is focused on kind of like that mass lethality and developing A More you know mass as a quality all of its own or quantity has a quality all of its known All of its own is something that's been thrown about a lot over the last probably less five to ten years I think and so we've got one that's really focused on that. I don't know folks have seen in the news kind of the affordable family of affordable mass munitions The efforts that are going on where trying to take Are we have a tendency in the service to make things more and more exquisite as it goes along? It's I mean it's inherent within any sort of paradigm Where you just they'll return on investment for everything that you you get becomes less and less over time and it costs more and more to get that Little bit more advantage and technology and it takes longer like so, you know Everybody's seen the graphs of how long it takes to design an aircraft and how much it costs and got it like this is inherent in a system And so this is one way of trying to help not I got short circuit the system or Provide our own disruption to it with either munitions With trying to define things that can be a little less costly, but also a lot easier to produce and produce in mass May not be quite as effective as other things, but cost per effect decreases and or you've got them So you can do do more of them I think the Falco or APK WS that folks have seen the laser got a rocket is a good example It was not necessarily designed within this system, but it's a good example what this kind of approach can do Where ultimately no matter what what adversary you're taking on you want to be on the right side of the cost curve Where the thing you were using to protect yourself or generate it in effect? Costs less than whatever it is. You're trying to try to hit, you know Yeah, a five million dollar missile killing a $50,000 drone is not the side you want to be on for very long No, and so that's kind of what these things are getting at the other piece is there's been lots of talk And I know I remember the secretary of war Hexeth seeing one of the videos that he had a few months back with a bunch of drones Flying around them the the law of the Pentagon So I think there's a lot of a lot of opportunity in in air in the Air Force and air power And I think senior service leaders See that as well to kind of start to grow these things so we're looking at opportunities to try and grow them and and help out with the But that piece as well No, I you know, I'm glad you guys are trying to get after that because it is Kind of concerning whenever you are dropping, you know A five million dollar weapon on Something that's just not It's a concern, right? And it is a threat but something that costs somebody thirty thousand dollars To throw up there. So and I and I love me some APK WS because when that thing When when obviously had been around for a while But I think it was 2016 when we finally got it in Afghanistan and put it on F16s And it was like alright guys, let's go out here and let's train Let's see what these things are are capable of doing from a viper that's you know At a downward angle and that thing is extremely capable and I like that We're still utilizing the hell out of those Yeah, we got a bunch of them. So there are they are they're very helpful I mean, don't get me wrong there are times where you got to drop that five million dollar weapon or a thirty million dollar weapon the key is to make sure we've got options and we can we've got we give command commanders and The air component commander the options to depict the right one and not force them into using something that they probably don't want to use that Weapon either but they don't have any other choice And sometimes it's education because you know the command commanders first Smartened and well informed as they are not all of them know how to weapon ear, you know And some of them just aren't familiar with some of the weapons that we are employing or have Available for them to use so I think that's where And this is not a weapons officer discussion But I think that that's where a lot of the experts and the weapons officers kind of make their money is Advising those commanders and helping to play in a lot of these missions Yeah, without a doubt and I mean the good news is at least, you know We have a lot of good leaders who are in the right places who are who are Savvy on that and know how to get the staffs and get the right people in We we certainly been sending a lot of them to where they need to be for the last or the last six months So I definitely think they're asking for the right people Because we were sending the right people to to help out with with those things which is the other advantage of kind of being where we're at is We do have a lot of folks that are heavily involved in the integration that are aware of the capabilities of other platforms in a way that Sometimes other folks aren't and they can go they can go help help with those planning efforts Yeah, for sure. I would say that the last three, you know major named operations that we've had that have had a massive You know footprint especially from Air Force has has done very well for the Air Force And super proud of all the folks that have been involved in that not just the Air Force but Navy Space Force and all that kind of stuff But they there's some people out there doing some really good work. Yep. I definitely agree with that Right so is Are is that all of your LOE's? I know that they're all focused on lethality, which I think is appropriate especially given the messaging from this administration and Secretary war hex out Yeah, I've got two more. So one is optimizing human lethality and that's a lot of focus on a few one is treating the human as a weapon system in the sense of like and folks probably heard this analogy before I mean We given the numbers of folks that we have in the physical requirements on them It's a lot like a professional, you know professional athlete And so trying to treat them like that and not just having you know, dingy gyms with old equipment that They were like yeah, I'd go do that and then you know, don't G lock in the aircraft and we'll see how it all goes But being more deliberate about and and fly for 20 years while you're craning around and looking behind you with a 30-pound weight On your head under 9g. Yeah, we've got a lot smarter about it and trying to take care of our folks and not like in any sort of like pampering way, but in like we recognize it as physically strenuous to You know make yourself way nine times what you actually weigh when you're when you're up there fighting and moving your you're moving your neck around and so One is trying to be engaged in the efforts and be not just deliberate But also bring a test mindset where we gather the data and understand what's working What's not and so we can help shape that and help help the Air Force optimize how it's optimizing And make sure we're getting good return on investment for it. There'll be peace within that set is human machine teaming so We are We are I would say at the very I mean We've been human machine teaming for a long time like we step ourselves in the aircraft like it's a team between the human and machine But we are getting I think Progressing more along those lines, especially with autonomy and AI with collaborative combat aircraft that I'm sure folks have seen Where not only am I mischeeming with the machine in which I'm flying But I'm teaming with some other machine that's flying over there That doesn't have a person in it. And so that line of effort is really to focus on Also focuses on that piece of how do we have those paired together? Whether it's the human and the aircraft they're flying and what autonomy we can put in the aircraft to make that more effective How do we understand the impacts on the human especially for longer duration type of sorties? you know when you see a B2 fly there and back to To a ran to go drop some bombs like that's a it's a hefty sortie with a couple of couple of folks in the aircraft Or even fighters going long distances So try to understand that piece as well as just keep continuing develop I recognize that I'm in this job for about two years and there's gonna be somebody else coming this job after me and somebody after that So part of that optimizing human lethality is is making sure we're taking care of our folks and Realizing that you know every every little bit of sprint that we're doing now is it's burning some type of like human family readiness and Making sure that we we take pauses in there and try and treat as much of a marathon as we can and you know People are gonna we're gonna tap out of the race to go on do other things But the more we can as a service take care of folks so they can run that race as long as as they want to would be helpful because We do a lot of runners and we not we need to keep running for a long long time The last the last thing is a naval enabling lethality and that is there are a few a few things under that With us trying to do agile test ranges and be able to kind of move tests around where we needed to and not just be stuck at some key key test ranges in Kona's One in a couple of them are a lot of modeling simulation as well as the joint simulation environment Which is kind of like the future of Air Force simulation and joint simulation because the Navy is pretty pretty heavy in it as well and so getting those Getting those enablers right in order for us to not just not just test but also provide High end training for four folks as we go forward is as we're doing the last piece the modeling and simulation is the other thing I'll throw out there so Back when I was in the 4-2-2 with my limited soda straw vision one of the things we had trouble with then was we could never get enough Sorties to really do a Lot of the statistically relevant tests that we really wanted to do so we we'd get we'd get anecdotal data and We would get we could either do a lot of anecdotes and probably come up with good conclusions That would not be statistically like really data defendable or we could do just a little bit that was data defendable But now we're missing all this other requirement that we we aren't necessarily ever going to get to It's true today the same way it was then it has not changed But I think we have opportunities with modeling and simulation to do our bet I mean, it's not perfect But do our best to kind of gain a little bit on the front end by modeling and sim some element of the mission planning and or Determining what outcomes we think we're gonna have then do some live fly to kind of validate what we thought we learned And and other and find the unknown unknowns there and then potentially modeling sim on the back end Afterwards to grow the test points that we've got into, you know, multiple orders of attitude more With some Monte Carlo modeling sim randomization stuff things I don't necessarily understand But I have people do in order to Understand pretty well in order to make sure in order to try and get some of that statistic statistical relevance and get Get more out of the tests that we've got so those are those are kind of our our big lines of effort I'll throw one more thing in there just because the Air Force and do w writ large is asking for speed And trying to move things faster Well, it is not an LOE It is kind of a through line of everything which is trying to integrate better with developmental test Which are the test pilots, you know the the John Glenn's the world the the golden arms that people who fly aircraft really really well I'll get their their test pilot patch their blue patch go through test pilot school like phenomenal aviators, but trying to blend operational tests, which is you know focus on Connecting the piece they do with what the warfighter needs and they're focused on it as well but with more deliberate focus I would say also with acquisitions and Those elements and that industry and the more we can kind of integrate those across the board in in time For any program. I think the better off we're gonna be the better able We're gonna be able to go faster and deliver better and the great news is being here at Eglin I've got the 96 test swing the DT side on On the patch as well as their Air Force research lab and then our partners over in the munitions directorate So we can all kind of come together and have a little bit of all those and we certainly have industry representative in the area as well To try and get after those certainly from the weapons side of the house But that's a that's a through line in everything and we're doing it be 21 We'll do it in F 47 as we go forward We're trying to take a lot of those lessons that roll them together to go to go faster Now getting getting acquisitions to go faster is tough and it's definitely been Even though you said it's not an illowy of yours It's been an illowy of everybody in and I've I've heard Secretary war Hexas say it multiple times now Then we've got to get quicker and I I think I would agree with that and always have but I think now when you see how rapid technology is Evolving and now you know you brought up CCA's we've got AI Like we've we almost I don't want to say we got to take the guardrails off But we we probably got to use them not as guardrails but more of guidelines And suggestions because we've got to move faster Or else we're just gonna get left behind Yeah, I agree with that. I think there are a lot of efforts going on right now. There's there's acquisition reform going on There is you know our local test efforts to kind of do test reform. I think to some extent I Have found is like as energetic as I am As we get into trying to go faster. We still find we still find challenges There's still there's still a need to test there are still elements of it I think we're but we are deliberately trying to look at those and really question What do we need when how much do we need and where can we either put off or? Accept risk that we will probably discover outliers later on Which is a nice thing of kind of that family affordable masses If I if I have not designed myself into one system that has to work because it's the only thing I've got and I have to keep just throwing money at it to make sure that it does the job that I want But maybe I've got more options more things and maybe if it doesn't work or if I lose a few that's okay Because it didn't cost that that much and I can kind of I I reduce the risk as a system level as opposed to a Individual widget level. I think that may afford us opportunities to go a little bit faster And or accept risk because it's it's again It's more of a system risk as opposed to like an individual item risk And and that might help so I I think there are there have always been smart people There's there are really really smart people really motivated people and I think the atmosphere of the Enterprise and the administration are such that we have opportunities that may not have existed Previously to try and actually make some of those significant changes changes happen and I see they're happening They're probably not having as fast as everybody want Because I would like them to go faster too. Yeah But they're happening and they're probably going about as fast as as They can short of just like throwing out me like I'm just gonna take all the risk But you'll probably find that that's not quite as quite as successful as you would as you would hope I would love I would love for a weapon to be produced by some manufacturer and just say throw it down range. It's gonna work great. It would be phenomenal But we're not we're not quite there. Yeah, I don't think we ever will because these are no matter how Affordable they are no matter how much they're based on technology. We've already got there always gonna be challenges It's just the matter of how many challenges the newer it is the either the newer the The technology the less proven it is the more challenges you're gonna find the longer it's gonna take the more it's gonna cost or The more based on you know, commercial off the shelf the less probability you're gonna have of those but you're still gonna find challenges Yeah, I mean the softwares don't always talk together and then you got different versions and all that kind of good stuff But I go sorry, I'll jump in there. He just you highlighted the software stuff I think there are I think what we'll find is that to truly go fast faster in the long term There are probably some early investments we need to make in order to set up the system to be able to move faster We are trying to pull some lessons learned to from some recent events and things we've done to try and Trying to determine where the where we think those are and to elevate that up to to make recommendations to senior leaders I certainly I don't know whether that's going to be true Whether that's fully true or not whether we are gonna find those those things It's just some something that I'm starting starting to see trends of that you know some standards some sort of standardization of Inputs outputs a software that you mentioned there. There's utility there And I know there are avenues that folks are trying to do that that just being really Bright, you know honest with ourselves about where we need to where do we need to do those things and generally where I find those are these cross-cross cutting things that go across multiple platforms that As we talked about earlier, we generally fund platforms We thought we fund programs that are optimized for that program But it's the things that span multiple things that require everyone to jump on board and everybody to put a little bit into the into the Kitty to get better for the the the whole system That historically we haven't been able to to crack the nut on how to do that properly But I think this piece of acquisition reform and this focus on going fast may allow us the opportunity to actually As an enterprise say all right, we're going to invest in these things right now It's gonna cost us a little bit in the short term, but we'll be better off the long run well, I think that ties right into the modeling simulation with with joint synthetic environment because The beauty of that is you can do rep after rep after rep like whereas if you're gonna go out and live fly something whether it's Something that you guys are testing or whether it's something that an operational unit is is just getting practice on It it enables you to get rep after rep instead of all right We're gonna fly line and now we've got a maybe we had a turn hot pit Maybe a little maintenance reload and then go back up there again And that's a massive cost for all the flight hour program and the gas and all that kind of stuff Whereas modeling you could do it ten or twelve times in the same amount of the same span of time Plus, you know, we start talking about Capability of weapons whether they're US or other countries, you know Working that kind of stuff out whether it's TTPs or what weapons can actually do this is where that modeling and simulation is so important Yeah, I agree it definitely it increases the rapid reps and sets that you that you got I Do the one concern I have with modeling is him to some extent over time is what people's perception of What you get out of it? and so I having been in various various scales of a modeling sim whether it's that like the Kind of an Air Force half side with big big modeling sim programs that like the campaign You know total war level or at the very very low end task a level, you know one of you one v one Or you know just trying to take off from land and aircraft There are certainly there are different models and different sims that that you know on a scale of granularity are better or worse But all of them have one thing in common, which is all they tell you is the difference between input and output based upon the assumptions you have in the model that you use and I've always it always concerns me when people look at it as a true representative reality or draw conclusions that it represents the way things really are where it none of them Some are better than others, but none of them do all of them are just They help provide insights and perspectives and help shape your professional best military advice But they should never be construed to truly reflect reality But they are helpful and they will help you Increase the number of runs that you've got they will help you get the learning just like we've got so Within our within a test enterprise. We have our two big test flags that we've got one is virtual Well, we have a lot of a lot of test flags, but for the 53rd wing We've got our black flag event and one is virtual one is live fly both absolutely essential I get a lot more reps at lower cost out of the virtual one, but again, it only tells me so much I can't do without the live fly one because it tells me other things it tells me what Unknown unknowns I had in the virtual what was or was not true out of the virtual I can get more I can get a better disparate set of players in the in the live fly I can do the a longer story that clues like the end-to-end take off all the way through But I can't get nearly the number of reps any amount of time at the cost So yeah, you're spot on like there. There's a total utility for modeling and sim. There's total utility for live fly And I I think we as a organization are aware of that and From what I've seen continue to try and highlight where they're useful and balance to them Yeah, they definitely complement each other and I don't think you you Prioritize one over the other. I think they're definitely complimentary And I gotta be honest sir You hit something that is near and dear to my heart with one of your LOE is and that's human optimization So I'm glad that you guys are actually getting after that as well, you know on the special operations side of the house We've been doing the preservation of the force and family for quite some time where within the special tactics units we have a strength and conditioning coach we have an athletic trainer we have a Physical therapist we have doctors chaplains and all that kind of stuff to hit the kind of all the pillars of the human wellness and You know the Air Force has had some some programs out there that I'm not gonna say whether they work or not. I just You know, there's a bunch of different avenues the Air Force is a massive organization so the fact that you guys are trying to get after this as well and also recognizing that you know, somebody somebody like you that's now flying F-35s, right and knowing that You flying the F-35 that has everything that's got going on inside it while trying to fly pull jeez And now you've got one or two CCAs that you're also trying to control. Yeah, they've got some AI to them But they are still there to complement your capability That's a lot of brain bites that that our pilots haven't had to figure out before so and Oftentimes they get overwhelmed without the CCAs so trying to figure out how to best optimize a someone's brain and Physiology to work through that and you mentioned it as well these long sorties whether they're B2 pilots or They're they're fighters that are doing 16-hour sorties in a fighter I mean that is that is an extremely long time as they've got a long transit, right They've got a long transit to the target area Then they've got to be at the top of their performance range to actually do the stuff And then when they're egressing and they've got to go all the way back home, you know another eight hours away It was that's that's all Taxing on on the human body no matter how much of a stud you are. Yeah without a doubt Okay, so I'm glad you guys are getting out to that And it's one of your your primary LOE's because that's something that the weapons school is also trying to get after and I think we've recognized the the constraints and the problems there and the potential problems that could could happen and Trying to get after as sooner rather than later Yeah, I think we are we're teamed up pretty well with weapons schools is doing because I think I think those two will feed off each other then from the purposes of actual of using it to make sure that The the folks instructing there and the folks going through are getting that that piece of their Training and then for us from the OT side, I think that's a great place for us to learn. Hey, what does work? What doesn't work? What can we take and proliferate across the across the force and and help them out as well? I will I will have to correct you on one thing. I'm not flying the F-35 anymore Okay, I so I got to I flew in 1518 here at Eglin in the 33rd fighter wing Doing helping or doing the the early training of it and it was a phenomenal aircraft love flight I am back to the F-15 so I'm flying the EX here Just because we don't have any F-35s here on on base and it was a great opportunity to get back into the Eagle And and see what the EX we EX can do And it wasn't nearly as bad of a transition as I was anticipating because it also has a big flat panel display So it that piece feels similar to being in the F-35 everything else is completely different But uh, I'm pretty excited about the EX. Yeah, I am too. It's it's a great aircraft It's it's a world's the difference from the sea model and pretty much every respect It definitely feels like flying a a very different aircraft other than having you know two engines two tails two wings and being a dealer of death Which is You know, but it's it's just it's a very different aircraft with a different mission set In terms of what I think it really is going to to bring to the fight But a very a very capable platform that is that's a blast to fly Yeah, I mean, it's yeah everything that I've seen on it and talk to the guys that are flying it They really enjoy it and they're like hey this thing's going to be just give it a little bit of time to where we can You know get this thing under our belt for a little bit longer But it's going to be one hell of a lethal lethal weapon for us. So Yeah I want to be respectful of your time, but then I you know when I don't often get a chance to talk to Wing commanders and in folks in leadership positions at the Air Force So one of the things that we generally like to end on is what advice would you give? To your airmen and your NCOs and your you know young officers as they go forward in the Air Force I think it probably so three things one is and I got this advice when I was in ROTC by my The 06 that was in charge of the ROTC detachment Which was hey be yourself and and just just be who you're gonna be and I Definitely stand by that because getting back to the marathon like if you're not yourself. It is it is exhausting Trying to try and be somebody different And so, you know, I've seen people stay in the Air Force. I've seen people get out I've seen them for family reasons or personal reasons for professional reasons for whatever it may be And I have tried to stick to the be yourself I have stuck to the be yourself perspective and there there will be a time and I recognize this where you know The Air Force and I may diverge the who I am is not what the Air Force needs to To fill whatever next role it is that they need filled and at that point time we will we will part ways But why I will have done it in a way that was as stances energy sustainable for myself and my family as long as possible and very you know fulfilling for everything I got to do and so I That would be my first offer to folks is you know, you know be yourself because Additionally like the individuality people bring to this fight is essential to making it making it better Certainly within this wing the you know the diversity platforms and perspectives are all are all really helpful for for mood our Moving ourselves forward and integrating effectively. So that's that's probably one second one is like have fun So if you're if you're not if you're not having fun something's wrong So there may be maybe little bits of time like it has not all been fun There are times and challenges where it may not be good, but overall it should be fun If it's not fun then again reference point one be yourself And if you know, maybe maybe it's time Maybe maybe it's divergent the things you really want the things that provide value in life are not the the things the Air Force is asking to do or Maybe it's hey talk to your talk to your supervisor talk to the folks above you and see if they can help you out or find a mentor or appear to help you out and and find Find the per one find the purpose in what you're doing because it's probably not fun If you don't know why you're doing what you're doing So if you don't know why ask if the people above you can't tell you why that's a that's a problem So that is something that I I do my very best to to communicate actively and certainly you know in response to query of Why is someone doing something if I don't have a good answer then I'm probably gonna think about it I'm probably gonna ask the people above me. Hey, why is this? And hopefully I can get to a decent answer to respond because I think that is leadership's role probably You know numero uno to be able to describe the why behind to their folks and why it's important for everybody to do What they do because like I tell my folks like I have way more that this that we need to do that I've got the resources to do it So if you're doing something that doesn't make sense if you're doing something you don't understand what value it adds Let me know because we may need to stop doing it But don't just don't just do something because someone tells I mean do what you're ordered to do But you should know why and like if it doesn't make sense push back and that is that's a great thing about this organization Is we are inherently I've got a lot of black sheep I've got a lot of people that don't necessarily fit in with other pieces of mold and I need that because they're the ones that push back They're the ones who think differently. They're the ones who find something outside of something else to to put it to to To change how we're doing business to make it so that we're more effective Say be yourself Have fun is is probably the second second big piece of advice and there's probably a third out there That someday after sometime after we get off. I'll be like That's that's what I wanted to say no I Have a reason you know have have think about it Yeah, I've seen leaders have told that told I've heard them say this previously Which is you know, think about your why think about the the reason you're serving and what you're doing and kind of have that Have that fire in there So whether it's whether it's because you you think the country is great whether it's because you wanted to help You know your bro or bro right next to you Whether it's because you think your mission is phenomenal like you know Have a have a motivation to get up and go to work each day, which hopefully is fun Hopefully because you're being yourself but hopefully your Your you're making the mission go forward because we need you we need your we need you and what you bring to this fight so Please get you know bring your best bring your a game because America needs it Absolutely. Well, sir. I want to thank you for coming on and thank you for you know Stepping up to the plate and leading the men and women of the 53rd wing and next time you're at Nellis I'm sure I'll run into you and for everybody else out there. Don't forget to like subscribe hit that notification bell and we'll see you later See you You