My career in the entertainment industry has enabled me to work with a diverse range of talent. Through my years of experience, I've recognized two essential aspects. industry professionals whether famous stars or behind the scenes staff have fascinating stories to tell secondly audiences are eager to listen to these stories which offer a glimpse into their lives and the evolution of their life stories this podcast aims to share these narratives providing information on how they evolved into their chosen career we will delve into their journey to stardom discuss their struggles and successes and hear from people who helped them achieve their goals. Get ready for intriguing behind-the-scenes stories and insights into the fascinating world of entertainment. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to Almost Live Nashville. Joining us today is Kurt Smith of Tears for Fears. His music has defined generations from chart-topping hits that everyone knows to deeper personal songs that continue to resonate decades later. His music has inspired generations and left an unforgettable mark on the world. Over the years he's not only created some of the most memorable songs of our time, he's also inspired countless artists and continues to push the boundaries of what music can be. Today we'll explore his creative process, we'll talk about his creative journey, and get a glimpse of what it's like to keep evolving as an artist while connecting with fans all over the world. So before we dive into our episode, we'll be back with an uninterrupted show right after a word from our sponsors. Thanks for joining us today. Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm always interested in how band names are formed. So how did you come up with Tears for Fears? It's a longish story, but I can give you the cliff note version. It was from a book by Arthur Janov called The Prisoners of Pain. We were heavily into primal theory at the time and big fans of Arthur Janov. It was specifically, I was reading a book about children's nightmares. It all sounds quite heavy. The premise was that if children were allowed to be natural, because the nightmares they have normally are invented monsters because they can't really admit to what they're really scared of, which tends to be peers, parents, whatever it may be. But if they're allowed to be more natural, if they were allowed to cry as opposed to told to shut up when they're crying, be quiet or calm down, then they wouldn't have these nightmares. So tears as a replacement for fears, tears for fears. That's how it came about. I like it. It's very interesting and a great story on how you came up with the name. Now, once you started it, you got it going forward. You had success that not many get. As you know, many people work their way up the ladder, so to speak, and it can take years and years and years. Your first album that you started out with in England, it went to number one. That must have been really satisfying for you. Yeah, it was. I mean, we'd worked for a bunch of years since then. I mean, we turned, we signed our first record when we were 18 with a band called Graduate. We had a number one single in Spain and no one else anywhere had heard of us. And we toured all through Europe and we did this sort of weeks of touring in two vans with us lugging our own gear and playing tiny clubs and doing all this kind of stuff. And Roland and I, at the end of it, we kind of sat down and we decided that this life was not for us. I mean, it became obvious kind of early on where the other members of the band were kind of into the live playing, they were into the partying, they were into picking up girls. I mean, the reason you get into a band in the first place. And we were really interested in production and all those kind of things and Arthur Janov. And, you know, we were different, basically. And so we decided to, you know, leave that band and stay as a duo. And we then proceeded to sort of start demoing stuff on our own. That's interesting because a lot of people never actually looked at you as a complete duo. They looked at you as a full band. Yeah. Did you kind of roll with that perception or did you eventually get it out there so people could understand that you were indeed a duo? Yeah, I know that some people thought we were kind of an entire band because, you know, there were pictures of the band and suddenly in the tour merchandise. But actually, when we did press, it was only ever the two of us and the two of us were the only people signed to a record deal. So we were a duo from the beginning. I think there was during Songs from the Big Chair, especially because we kind of took off and we were playing live a lot. The programs for the tour had pictures of the whole band because you want to see who the band are. So I think that's where the misconception came from. But we've always just been a duo. I mean, getting the two of us to agree is hard enough, including other people. I get that. Believe me, I totally get that. It's always interesting dealing with one single artist, but when you have two or more people, it can get much tougher for sure. When you first start working on a contract, there's a lot of give and take going on. How did that work out for you in the beginning? Were you both on board with label and management and what they were thinking? Or were there a lot of twists and turns between everybody until you finally all came together and got on the same page? Well, it definitely took twists and turns. I mean, we were very young. We were 19, maybe 20 when we signed deal as Tears for Fears. That may not have been 20 yet. And we had an incredibly opinionated A&R man, who I'm still friends with. And actually, when I was back in Bath, saw him a few weeks ago. But we've become friendlier because we don't work together anymore. But it was definitely a fight because when you're young and opinionated and kind of know what you want to be surrounded by record company people who are older, more experienced, and producers as well. I mean, I would include Chris Hughes in there, who think, and then some cases are right, that they know better. And we're young, so we are 100% convinced that we know better, because it's what 19 and 20-year-olds do. So it did lead to some friction, without question. But we're eternally grateful to Dave, because we were signed to a publishing deal when we were in graduate, so that publishing deal continued on for a bit. And they're the people that shopped us to record companies, and we went and met with all these record companies. We went in and played the demos. All we had at that point were, I think, Power Shelter and Suffer the Children were the two songs, I think. I been here in Nashville for about 30 years now working with some of the more well people I find that they have many things in common in their travels and journeys to get where they are One of the very similar things that they have in common is they are not prepared for the success they get overnight, so to speak. With you, even though you travel some, when the label signed you, within a very short period of time, you had a number one hit record out there. Then your next record not only does big in the UK, but in the US as well. How did you handle that impact that came to you from that success? I mean, in retrospect, it was a bit of a blur. I don't think we handled it that well. I think when we got older, we handled it better, which is why it took us so long between records, you know, because we just needed time alone. I mean, Roland and myself, we're not people that like to be in the spotlight, particularly, even though we chose this as a profession. I find it very uncomfortable because people have a preconceived idea about who you're going to be and what you're going to be like. So I find that all kind of weird. I mean, you don't think of this when you're doing it. You think because when you first start or I'm speaking personally, when I first started, it was just a desire to be heard. You know, like this is my voice. I want people to hear me. And I think that's the same for Roland because we both came from, you know, broken families and middle of three sons. And no one really listened to us that much. You know, there were two. I mean, we both had working mothers, so we kind of looked after ourselves. So the desire was to be heard, and then all of a sudden you're kind of a pop idol, especially at that age at 20. So our first shows, which is weird giving the content of the material, which was The Hurting, which was basically an album, a concept album about primal theory, pretty much, yet we were playing to audiences of screaming girls. We were, you know, we were pop idols at that point. We had smash hits and all those kind of English magazines putting us on covers because we're good-looking young men or boys, I would consider us at that point in time. So the juxtaposition was very strange, especially for me, because I didn't understand why anyone would scream and want to marry you or just you were their idol when they'd never met you. So I found all of that very hard to take. And it became harder when we became big in America, very hard. Sure, that's very understandable. Now, you brought up an interesting topic and that's perception what did you think your perception was to what you were putting out versus what people were perceiving you to be a mixture you know what i didn't understand was was primarily a female audience when we first started because in england you go on top of the pops which is the biggest tv show and then you become the latest you know cute guy they're looking at and they're not really listening to the content of the music yet having said that you know there were there's certainly a large portion of our audience really did understand what we were trying to say and they're the ones that have stuck with us all through the years and continue to reinvent you know for instance we play shows now and there'll be 19 20 year old kids at our shows and they all relate to the hurting that's the album they relate to and i'm talking about america and the hurting wasn't particularly big in america but it makes sense because the album was written when we were that age. Sure. So the amount of times we've had people come up and said, you've got me through my college years, you know, when that album came out. So actually, I think interestingly, because it was a big college album in America and it was a big op-hit in England, the reaction in the two different countries was different. The US audience for The Hurting was a more thinking audience, I think, than the British audience was. I find it interesting when people come up to you or email you and say, you helped me get through this tough situation or you helped me get through college or whatever it might be the great thing about music is it can be very therapeutic so what song or songs were people telling you helped them get through their trying times well certainly most most songs on the hurting specifically i mean i think that it became more general by songs from the big chair so songs like Mad World, which people still today completely relate to, and it may take on different meanings, you know, because other people have covered it. I mean, the Gary Jules and Michael Andrews version really put it in a completely different light. And then, you know, I'd move on to when COVID happened and lockdown happened, and I did that version with my daughter. That version suddenly went viral out of nowhere, because there was something about everyone being locked at home, and her father and daughter singing Mad World together that was very moving and touching. So it took on a different meaning then. Yeah, that's absolutely fantastic. With every song, a songwriter will have this song, will put their heart and soul into it. Did you put your heart and soul to any songs and you put it out there knowing what you meant and then the listener, for whatever reason, did not get the message that you were trying to put across? Yeah, I mean, they do. and we have had people that just really get the wrong end of the stick completely. But it doesn't really matter that much to us. What matters to us is we've said our piece. I mean, I find the weirdest, weirdest one is, you know, prior to the last election in America, they may have people online and there was an article in National Review, I think, whatever, that very conservative, is that National Review? The very conservative paper here, magazine, that thought it was like an anthem for, not for the right wing, but for capitalism, that everyone should pull up their bootstraps and help themselves. And that was so not what the song was about. The song was about the insane desire for power. And it was a song against Reagan and Margaret Thatcher at the time, because they were choosing to go to war really to keep their popularity going. Yeah. Now, earlier you said that you was into the production side of it and the studio. When you went in the studio, sometimes you go into it thinking there's going to be a certain way, and then all of a sudden the magic happens, and you get a production that you never expected would happen. Did that happen to you at all? Well, yeah. I mean, for us, the magic generally doesn't just happen, it's got to be said. Although, you know, one exception would be Everybody Wants to Roll Go On, which literally took like two weeks, because we thought it was such a light-hearted kind of giveaway track, and who knew it would become our biggest song out of anything we wrote? And that was the easiest to do and the easiest to record. But most of the time it was never-ending arguments. I mean, arguments sort of like discussions and debates about what should be done. And these were the kind of people we worked with. I mean, Chris Hughes, our producer, early on, Ian Stanley, who played keyboards with us, who was in the studio with us and Ross Cullum who also co with Chris Hughes The Hurting We would have debates about things before even doing anything You know in retrospect when I look back on it we wasted so much time Why didn we just try it and see if it worked or not But we didn't. We'd have to have the argument to decide who was right or wrong first. Yeah, I get that. I've seen that happen before. Now, I've been in the studio many times, and all of a sudden, a guitar player or another musician just does something that takes the song a completely different direction than you ever thought. Did you ever have anything like that happen where something took a completely different direction than you planned? And then when you heard it in the end, you go, yeah, that works. Yeah, I don't really know because I think that I don't believe that we ever kind of went in. I mean, the hurting, we certainly went in with a game plan. We wanted this album that was effectively a concept album. I was in the big chair and with Seeds of Love and albums after that. I think that we kind of went in and just kind of wanted to see what would happen. I think that the biggest surprise to this day would be Everybody Wants to Rule the World. We consider it a particularly great track at the time. It wasn't really over. We were known for big production, or at least we were getting into big production at that point in time. And it's not big production. It's very simple. There's kind of a few parts on it. They just happen to work well off each other. Different tempos and different time signatures that just came together. And because it was so easy to do, we never really thought it was that. It couldn't be that great. Of course, it goes on to do what it did, you know. Yeah, sometimes things just work. Now, when you look back, is there anything that you look back and say, you know, I think I would change this, I would change that? Anything that comes to mind? Well, you've worked with artists. You know what the answer to that's going to be. I'd change most things probably, you know. I mean, the thing is you have to get to a point where you're like, okay, this is good enough. Because otherwise you could keep going forever because we are incredibly fussy and we keep trying to attain more as far as standard of recording goes. So at some point you've got to say, yeah, that's really good. And if we get to a point where we say that's really good, then we're okay. We've never got to the point where we went, that's brilliant because we don't think we're that good. Which is why we continue to do it because you continue to struggle to be better. And I listen to albums now, and I'll listen to a Bon Iver record and go, that's better than anything I've ever done. But that's what keeps me going. Yeah, I totally get that. What's up for the future? What are your plans for 2026? We're going to make long-term plans particularly, because we've been doing this long enough that they tend to, some life happens, and something can come up and change it all. Right now, we get the last week in January in three weeks. we go into the studio and start recording again and we'll see where that takes us we have a bunch of songs but some of them may stick some of them may not and we'll work together on fresh new material and then if it all works out we'll take it out live but that's you know that's for the future once we've kind of got the some of the recording process going any touring plans locked in for this year yet i think locked in is just sort of on the horizon you know i think we're for us we want to wait to see how the recording goes first and foremost you know because that could that could happen quickly that could take us a year two years who knows you know that's kind of what we're concentrating on right now yeah that totally makes sense you've got a show coming up here where you're working with a charity called joey song right can you tell us how that came to happen my friend butch vig is very convincing yeah he's been on talking about it as well yeah we toured with um garbage a couple of years ago and butch is you know who's a wonderful guy in fact the whole band it was probably the most enjoyable tour we've done the whole band are such nice people that it was um it was a wonderful experience and butch approached me it really wasn't until you know a month ago and said i've been meaning to ask you this was after i went to see them play at the palladium here and meaning to ask you we do this charity event every year would you come do it with us because we were talking about actually playing everybody wants through all the world. Then suddenly I thought, well, maybe you should be there and singing it. I said, yeah, whatever I can do. Absolutely. And then he told me about the charity, about Joey's song, and it sounded like a good cause. And I'm not in the studio until the end of the month. So I have the time, but I'm very happy to do it and be a part of it. And this sounds like a fun event. I mean, from all the people I've talked to, it sounds like they have a good time. Yeah, that seems to be what everyone is saying. It's just a great time. An acoustic night on friday where the audience gets questions and answers then saturday night is a full-blown band situation where everybody gets to rock out yeah and i've decided not to play bass just sing so it makes it easier for me you know i mean to be honest we've learned to be one time to be playing bass and it would seem pointless to take a bass all that way when you have these incredibly capable musicians that could stand in for you and i could just concentrate on singing and i'll bring a special guest along with me. Yeah, that'll be great. I think I can give that away. My eldest child will be accompanying me. Oh, that's perfect. It's always great to have that kind of connection on stage with you. Yeah, so, you know, Mad World and things like that, we can, you know, will be those versions on. And acoustically, she'll play her own stuff as well. She's an artist as well. And she'll join me the next night, probably as well, and be a part of the all-girl band and do all that. I think she'll have fun. Yeah, I think that's going to be great. and it's going to be a lot of fun not just for her but for both of you now this is a short segment i like to call between the notes no right or wrong answers no gimmicks just a few thoughtful questions about music influence and the stories in between okay the first one is what is the first song that you hated but later on grew to love it first song i hated and and what was the next bit then later on you grew to love it oh and couldn't allow oh there's a million probably you know i mean it's all those songs when you heard when you were younger and you're like and then you know you can't do without them later it's like put it this way i was like never a big still i'm not wham fan or anything like that and then you know of course every christmas you want to hear last christmas yeah you know kind of things it's like it becomes sort of part of your life when the first time you heard it you thought oh that's cheesy yeah i get that now second question if you could steal one skill from any musician, which skill would that be? Improvisation. Okay. I really not good at that I really have to think things through you know I totally with you there I went to Berklee College of Music and just for improv Right That was my weakness too Next one Which Tears for Fears lyric do you wish secretly that you had written differently? Wow. I don't know if there is one because we spend so long doing them. But the one that kind of does get me a bit, actually I've now picked one, of course, because I have to think. But Watch Me Bleed, I think that's a little on the intense side, and that was off the hurting. It's just me. It was a bit too obvious and near the knuckle. Okay, that totally makes sense. Now, is there a song that you wish you never performed live, and why? That's the big one. I want to think of it, because we performed a lot of songs live. I don't know. they all had their part you know I mean there are ones that have fallen by the wayside since then oh yeah okay I've got it yes it was a song between albums between the hurting and and songs in the big chair there's a song called the way you are that we released just as a standalone single that we ended up despising and we did play it live and it was horrible oh that's funny that's good if you woke up tomorrow you had to make a change in the music and style that you play what would you turn to for style oh interesting it would be a lot and this is really because it would be a complete contradiction i guess it would be a lot emptier you know i mean if you're going back to sort of folk acoustic not not folk as such but acoustic something where the song stands alone and you don't really have to get into the big production thing even though i obviously given our body of work thoroughly enjoy that it would be nice to do something that was simple yeah simple music is great. It speaks without trying too hard. It leaves space for feeling, honesty, and connecting with the music. Now, the final question, which fan interpretation of your music has made you laugh? And then on the other side of that, which interpretation has made you cringe? Oh, fan interpretation of music. And wow, I'm trying to think of anyone's that have trying to think of any interpretations of our music because they're all, they're generally good. I mean, I guess, you know, the disturbed version of Shout was a little horrifying to start with, but I've kind of come to appreciate it, you know, it turning into a kind of metal song. I was a little disappointed, I have to say, in Patti Smith's version of Everybody Wants to Rule the World. And I say that as a huge Patti Smith fan, because she did it the way we do it. And I wanted it to be her, you know. Yeah, absolutely. So that kind of disappointed me a bit. Now, how do people find you? How do they follow you? Get to know where you're going to be, listen to your music? How do they keep up with you so they can know what you're up to? I personally, my partner is not a big fan of the social media. We do have Tears for Fears on Instagram and Facebook and Kurt Smith, just under Kurt Smith. I'm on Facebook and Instagram and occasionally on Twitter. But I kind of gave that up for quite a while after the last election because I couldn't take it anymore. You have a website as well? Thetearsforfears.com, yeah. Okay, good. That gives them a place to start looking and following what you're doing. Now, what is important for the listener to understand about what you're doing, your journey on how you got there, and what the future holds for you? Well, I can't tell them what they can look forward to because I have no idea what we're going to come up with. Sure. Which is the joy of it. It is. You know, I would say, and I say this to my daughter who's in music, and I say this to both my daughters. My younger daughter is an artist. She's a graphic artist, illustrator. And it's really, you know, they get very kind of uptight about the fact that it's really hard. My answer there is, this is your passion. You have to pursue it. Because if you can end up making a living doing something you're passionate about, nothing in the world beats that. So take it as far as you can take it before you decide to make any rash decisions. Yes, absolutely. That's so true. On a side note, you mentioned your daughter has performed with you. What's it like having her on stage with you? You must be incredibly proud, and I'm sure it must be a great feeling seeing all that she's accomplished. It's interesting. I don't get pride because I don't take credit for it. I think it's just a given she has this talent. In fact, she's probably technically, not probably, technically she's a much better singer than me. And she's a better guitarist, but I'm a bass player. So she can play actual acoustic guitar much better than I can. The joy I get is the amusement it gives me. Because when I see videos of us back, and even that one of us doing Mad World on YouTube, I'm like, oh my God, it's mini me. As we look alike, we kind of act alike. We both sing, you know, a lot of the time with our eyes closed. and it's just kind of like looking in this mirror. It's fascinating. Yeah, and the reason why I bring this up, I produced Glen Campbell's daughter, Debbie, and the joy she got from traveling with her father for 25 years was just so good. So I thought it would be a great take to hear from your side as a father traveling and performing with his daughter. Yeah, I find it incredibly easy. You know, I mean, it's one of those things where parent and child, they just, I mean, if you're close, and we are very, I'm very close with both my kids. Just know each other, you know. There's this sort of unspoken thing that you go through when you play together that you just kind of know. I mean, I think Roland and I have come to do that over the years. It's kind of different for us, but same kind of thing to the extent that we know each other so well that we know what the other person's thinking. Absolutely. Well, this has been fantastic. Great conversation, great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today. Oh, it's been my pleasure. The pleasure's all mine. Thanks again. Thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This has been a Tony Mantor production. For more information, contact media at plateaumusic.com. If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.
