‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Is ‘Game of Thrones’ at Its Best. Plus, the Future of ‘Star Wars,’ ‘Industry’ S4E2, and the ‘Landman’ S2 Finale.

I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now! Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am a editor at TheRinger.com and joining me in the studio, the commander, it's Indigree Waltz! Happy Martin Luther King Day. Yeah. Yeah man. TG. I didn't see if you would acknowledge that. We're here on a Monday because there was just too much TV. There was. You know, and we couldn't record on Friday and I didn't want to record on Tuesday. And Brandon Tartikov had a dream. And the dream would be 400 scripted series in his children's lifetime. Little white shows, little black shows, living together. That's right. That's right. That's what we're here for. Greenwald, great to see you man. What a weekend of television, what a weekend of sport. I was thinking maybe we should start doing the last 10 minutes of the day. This podcast are called Sports Center. Give me some to look forward to. And it's just us talking about Sean McDermott. But we have too much TV to talk about today and so much so that unless you have any pressing personal announcements, we can skip the. No. Favorite part of the show for Bill Simmons and get right into some television. Is that a fashions favorite part? I thought he'd like to. Yeah. That's his favorite part. He's always telling me. He's like, you guys, when you guys are shooting from the hip in the first 10 minutes. He tells you that, but he tells me a very different story. No, he does. We have a new show, the best show and the last episode of a show. Okay. What do you want to talk about first? He wasn't the last episode of industry even though it felt like it. No, it was not. So that's the best show. Yes. We have a night of the seven kingdoms. We have industry. We have the LAMN. The LAMN season two finale. The series premiere of a night of the seven kingdoms. And the second episode of the fourth season of industry. Do you want, is it pick them? I have a side of sense. Yeah. Let's go. Do you think we should start with thrones? Yeah. Okay. So that's what caught me out to LA, you know, Game of Thrones. Yeah. And then I flew back and then I flew back and then I flew back. But like in a big picture sense. And the one that you just stayed. We owe the show. Yeah. A lot. This is the new series in the Game of Thrones universe. This one is a show run and created by Ira Parker. Although in, I think, consultation with George R. Martin. We'll talk a little bit about that. As we go along, this is a completely different kind of look for this franchise. I guess you could say it's a contained story to some extent. These are based on novellas by Martin. There's six of them, I believe, in existence though Martin says he has ideas for quite a few others. And it's TV. There's three novellas. Yeah. Okay. But I think you as a loving member of the artistic community, you take him at his word. In the same way that you are just like he's got ideas for like 12 more or something like that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm not going to break news here. I'm not Jason Rammallery. But I believe he said he has plans for two additional novels in the main series of Game of Thrones. Okay, in Florence. Yeah. I may, I may have been misremembering, but I do believe back in 2010 there was talk about that. Do you, I, what we talk about, George and his, his ever changing role in this world. But I wanted to, I was excited for you to see this show. Yeah. I watched some screeners a little while ago. We won't be doing any spoilers of the future of this season. Although, I, you know, if you're a Game of Thrones fanatic, you probably know what this series is about. If you are just going into it blind as I did going into it. Thank you. Yeah. I think it's like a delightful reaffirmation of and, and revalidation of like what's cool about these stories. And I thought this first episode was awesome, but I can't wait to hear what you thought. I thought it was great. I thought it was incredibly entertaining. I think we should shout out, Iroparker as you did, who's the showrunner of this. Someone I don't know anything about him. I think he worked on House of the Dragon. I don't know what he particularly brought like what his pitch was, what the relationship was. I do know that this series was in active development for a while, right? And briefly, Stephen Conrad, who is a fairly well, culty, but loved television crew. He has another show in HBO coming in a couple months. DTSA and Lewis, but he's responsible for, um, uh, Patriot as well as that was the other show that I'm liking right now. Ultra City Smiths. And then there was another one. It doesn't have a perpetual grace limited. God, you're so good. You still, how do you still have it? I know. They're buried somewhere in there. Really? Anyway, I believe he was attached to this. And I think that's really interesting to think about. But the reason why I bring it up is because it just seems off of one episode, again, one episode out of six, I believe, that Ira Parker has the exact right sensibility to play to the strengths of the existing franchise as it is known on television, but play within those established borders and still have some irreverence, still have some wit, still be kind of meta aware of what he's playing with and the expectations he's subverting, while still honoring what everybody who's ever liked Game of Thrones has come to love about it. Perhaps the best exemplified by the opening in which the theme music plays briefly. The Game of Thrones theme music, yeah. Before a quick cut to, I believe, what was your favorite scene in the episode? Explosive diarrhea from our main character, Dunk. Yeah. Uh, so it's been interesting talking with Mallorraine Joe about this on, uh, talk to the Thrones just because it sounds like this is an incredibly faithful adaptation, except for a few flourishes here and there. And one of the flourishes was the pooping. Oh, that's not in it. I don't think so. Uh, and, you know, there's even like a George Martin quote about him being like, I don't want to do it. Do the voice. I don't have the voice. I don't have the voice. I don't have the voice. You look like you reared back for a second. Uh, he was just like, that's not in the book, you know, and so that is obviously. Here go these Hollywood types, trying to put their stamp on the material. The, the what, you know, I think that his kind of concept of what an adaptation should be is make it as faithful as possible. He said that explicitly. I think that, um, what Parker brings to this is like a sense of like wit, like he said, and also feeling like there are, this is the first Thrones show I think that you can get into like the main characters and be like, these seem like pretty good people. Yeah. And I want them to succeed because their goals are relatively modest. It has been over a decade since we've been introduced to any character, I believe in the Game of Thrones universe, whose goal wasn't outright takeover of the Iron Throne slash annexing green. Yes. You know what I mean? Like that is always, it's always coming off the top rope. That's not how the series began. And in that way, it is a return to the roots. And in another way, it is a completely different way in because these are just, I don't think that correct me if I'm wrong. I am slightly spoiled about the show only because I think that the little kid's name is kind of a giveaway as well as his mysterious, you know, what were you doing in this town where you from kind of thing? Yeah. Why'd you shave your head? But, uh, well, maybe he had, he had hair loss. Like he was just leaning into it. Yeah. I'm not going to judge the young boy. Um, people aged differently than, you know, it's true. I didn't have such a nutrient rich diet as us. They weren't being served hymns ads on Instagram constantly. They didn't know they had options. I don't believe, and I hope this is the case. I mean, I'm sure there are people who know much better, but no more than I do, well, could tell me I'm wrong. But I don't think that Sir Duncan is actually going to be revealed to be the prince who has promised. He's just a nice protagonist for a show. Yeah. And I, my understanding is that he has a role to play in, in, in the history of Westeros, but not in a huge one. Yeah. I mean, I think in the spirit of it, like the way that you have to think about one, at this point, I think everyone understands that you think about the Westeros-y books that they are history books of a made up place. So he's not really writing about, I mean, occasionally he will Howard's in it a little bit, but largely, I believe George Martin describes the, subscribe to the great man of history theory when to in terms of who he writes about. All that is irrelevant. It is actually, I think, a harder challenge than people might assume from seeing how comfortable and just enjoyable the show is to downscale an entire piece of IP and make it something a little bit more approachable. I think that we could, we should talk a little bit more about the specifics of this show, but I do think it presents, it's, it's already clearly so successful. I think it presents an interesting counterpoint to some of the other larger franchises and what, how, when they've tried to do this, namely Marvel, DC and Star Wars. Well, I think that, you know, you talk about history. One of the things that each, each, any franchise show is going to have to establish or have to figure out going into it is what's our relationship to the main timeline. What's our relationship to the events that have already been depicted that might have brought people into the story in the first place? And you know, probably the most ingenious work around of that was Andorr, where it's this 20 hour epic or 22 hour epic about a footnote in Star Wars history according to the movies, you know, but it makes it seem like it's the most important thing that's ever happened and perhaps it was in that world. And for those characters who were fully realized people. Yeah, and I think that what I liked about this was it started with people rather than a thing rather than an event rather than a turning point rather than you don't know this secret story about like the guy who gave John Snow his first beer, but here it is. It's more about what we're like, you know, what was like, give me a slice of life during this time. That's 100 years before Game of Thrones starts. Is that a fish? I didn't even look at it. Yeah, I think it's like something like 100 years before Game of Thrones starts. And I actually find like reading about those kings and the transitions of power and the way different families take what I'm like in the Wikipedia surface level stuff I find it like relatively like it really, you know, intriguing. I like reading Robert Carrow books, but you know, that's cool. Do you know? Yeah. I just really want to stake out the cooler lane than you in that. The cooler lane is being poverty-age gracefully. You read any other books recently. Thank you for asking. I did have a nice way to set that up later. So let's save it. Um, but yeah, like I think that the relationship this show has to the Game of Thrones sort of umbrella or the big tree is to show that there are different ways of telling these stories. And you know, Martin has been pretty explicit over the last couple of weeks in his interviews about the state of his relationship to house as a dragon. Fascinating Hollywood reporter cover story. And I forget which one it was. I got to say, man, like after watching Night of the Seven Kingdoms, and I don't mean this in like a completely dismissive way because I do like house of the dragon at times and some of the performances on it. But maybe George is right. And maybe he knows best, you know, and maybe like he knows the story better than anyone. And if shoot what's basically on the page, I asked the dragon's a really hard adaptation because it's like, it's essentially like shooting a couple, like a couple pages of a pamphlet rate like it's from what I understand. I, again, we're the wrong people to, to have strong opinions about this. But um, we can have strong opinions, but about like knowledge of the material. That's my understanding of it as well. And so it always, always was going to be kind of a cursed adaptation because it, what it has is like a family tree and a series of events. And some writing of course. Yeah. Well, it's like, how do you turn that into a television show? There are like these two or three historians who are telling the story, but at times are like, we can't be for sure what was said here or whatever I think. Um, in any case, it mean like I'm not going to, we don't have to weigh in a lot on a writer that we haven't actually read his work. But I mean, we are 10 years into doing that. Yeah. It just informed, it just all these interviews and knowing what I know about it informed like, oh, like maybe, maybe a more like sort of traditional adaptation of this work is like what works? It's, it's incredibly complicated and incredibly difficult, but you can reduce it to something to a fairly simplistic observation, which is, you know, cart before the horse. And in this metaphor, the cart is plot and the horses are characters. And House of the Dragon, I believe exists primarily to serve a story that seemed cool, that got the world to a certain place that had a lot of dragons that I also think we can ever overstate the reactive nature of the existence of that show because the first time they tried to do a spin off, which from everything we understand was a little bit more experimental, a little bit more character driven or at least surprising by all accounts. It was not successful. And so they were in a rush to get something on the air and they, they went right at what people have always liked to not, that let me be clear. They went right at what had recently been world dominating about the show, which was Dragon War. Yeah. And let's do that. This was a chance they had more time to develop it. And again, we don't know the details of what everything that's been talked about, but it's quite clear from the leaks that we have had over the last few years that the, the gentle fracking of the source material by HBO over the last few years has been relatively considerate, I would say. In the sense that we hear every so often about anywhere from one to six projects, even development. Yeah. And Martin was like updating about like a bunch of the stuff and it's like there's like a, you know, Agon's conquest that could be a dune trilogy or it could be another TV show. The Cease-Nake thing that could be a show or a cartoon. Like they are, they do seem to be taking some lessons from the over dilution of Marvel and Star Wars by taking, you know, being a little slower with it, which I think is good. If this is the result by saying we don't need two houses of the dragon, we need two different shows at different times of the year alternating with different vibes. That seems like a healthy, it seems like healthy stewardship, you know, the, the other version we're seeing it, I think there was room, there was talk this week like fallout as such a success or Amazon that they're going to do a spin off or reality show. The boys show that they're going to do a reality show for fallout. I think the reality show is us watching the second episode and being like, okay, you're right. Like who says it first? But or like with the boys show that I still really like I'm looking forward to the last season, the spin off, Jen Vee, I was like, I'm good. This is, I'll be watching Vot though, like the one that's the one that's got it. It's being run by a college friend of mine and it's stars eye a cash, so I will be giving it its due diligence. Good. Also, you know, I am interested in the Vot version of the era that Robert Carrot wrote about as well as a show that I'm pitching as a companion piece, Generation E, which is the eye a cash character a little bit more effingers. That's what's in generation E would be effingers at the same time if the Vot corporation had invested in the effinger motor company. If you're new to the watch, Andy finished his look called the effingers. First of all, it's just effingers. Okay, sorry. Just saying. But yes, if you're new to the watch today, Martin Luther King day, 2026, you so don't want to be fighting today. You keep bringing him Martin Luther King day. Okay. January 19th. Yeah. A day of okay, state of Arizona. Sean Sean McDermott. The first day of Sean McDermott's new life. Yeah. I have a lot of Sean McDermott takes. We'll see on the video in the show. Back to night of the seven kingdoms, Peter Klafi, who I believe is a former rugby player. I was in bad sisters. I was alerted. Yeah. Incredibly charming and funny protagonist is a great, great energy on the show really well cast. The young, the young bald egg, Dexter Sol Ansel, seems like a good young actor. He is a good young actor. The direction. Oh, and Smith. Oh, and hair. Sorry. And Sarah Dina Smith to the back half. She's a director that we like a lot in her work. And then what they did is the thing that I think we often think of as like the cheat code for British series, which is just you just spam the, the baffta button. You spam the national theater button and you just get actors who are all god tier. And the moment I knew, there are two moments in particular casting wise where I was like, we're in good hands. One is when our guy Tom Vaughn Lawler shows up. That's our dude from, say nothing, I believe. Yes. You remember him best from his role as one of Thanos's death eaters or whatever. Oh, I forgot about that. You didn't remember that? No. That's how you first encountered the work of Carrie Coon as well. And when she was proximate midnight, just Tracy not know that, but that's the first time you'd seen his wife act. But I guess he's finding out now. This means he listens to pods on federal holidays. The other actor that I love. I know you have a lot of deference to the federal. The federal. I was told just comply. Danielings who is the breakout star of the Guy Richie series, the gentleman. Do you, have you watched that show? Yeah, we talked about it on the podcast. I got it. He's great in it. And he is a Baratheon. Lionel Baratheon, the laughing storm. And like, look, like, obviously, I think people who are not new to the watch understood that the moment I was, I fell in love with the show was when there's a tense moment between Sir Dunk and Sir Lionel. And it does not end with a red wedding. It ends with a homoerotic dance party. Yeah. Like, okay, this is, I kind of alluded to this on Thursday show, but I was curious your thoughts on the depth versus with aspect of this series. You know, to take, to take basically one setting, which is a giant field in this town of Ashford where they're going to have this tournament. There's going to be this, you know, a night's tournament. And and Duncan is, is, is, is signing up for this tournament at great personal risk, not only for like injury, but if he loses, like he has to give up his horses, whatever money he has, which is very little anyway. But like, still, I do have a question. Like, I've, it's never been a me problem, but I do believe the upkeep and feeding of horses can be quite cost prohibitive. I mean, I don't know if the, if the, what the inflation rate is in Westroast at that moment, you know, these horses look very, very healthy and well fed. But the Targaryen royal family might have instituted a build back better situation where like prices are coming down, you know. Oh, do you think they turned the economy around? They need groceries lower. Fantastic. No, but I was just going to ask you whether you enjoyed exploring the different corners of a single setting, right? It rather than like world-hopping the way a game of front-stab. I was thrilled by it, but I also didn't, I've only watched one. And but it has been, only to me that this is the setting for this series. I think that's great. I think that the, if this, if the show successfully pulls off what it has suggested that it's going to be able to do through this one episode, it will have done something that a lot of other big IP scale like bit modest content has not been able to do. Like you brought up Andorr, which I think is one of the greatest accomplishments of our lifetimes of television, it is also completely not repeatable because it was both pitched at a different level of intellectual rigor and political advocacy and awareness and everything is just at a different level than your normal starware show. The price point was not that different. No. I imagine this was cheaper than Andorr. That's my point. This is not only cheaper than Andorr, this is clearly cheaper than House of the Dragon, but intentionally so. And in a way that Harkins back to what I was saying last week about like, have the plan ahead of time so that your budget and your, so that the budget that you get is aligned with the goals that you have going in creatively. And I think that clearly this was built to be that. And so you set the whole thing in a field. Great. I don't know what the model for that would be in the other realms of IP, but I still think it might be possible. And you would, and it, you feel like Star Wars is the one that keeps stepping on the rake with that in the sense that they're like, oh, well, we could do a show about a bounty under kicking around like Tatooine and maybe going into Moss Eisley for a couple of blue milks now and again. Yeah. And then within five episodes, there's digital Luke Skywalker striding across the screen. Yes. Like they can't help themselves in reaching for the shiniest, most expensive ingredients in the shop. I'm happy to talk about Star Wars if you want to because obviously with Kathy Kennedy, we're giving Luke's film. There was a lot of news about that over the last week. There were several updates about some of the new projects and what there's going to be doing. Dave Filoni is taking over the creative side of Lucasfilm. He's come president with a woman who's been the head of business affairs whose name I will Google to get correct as you continue your thought. You mentioned the idea of like Luke Skywalker has to show up in the Mandalorian at a certain point because we need to make this pretty traditional TV show of like a venture of the week kind of situation into a bigger deal than it already is. That was always really amusing to me because you know, they struck gold with a like a Boba Fett looking guy and a little Yoda, you know, like they could have spun that out for a little while longer before they got to the force. But I wonder whether or not some of that was the circumstances of Star Wars of Filoni's obvious ascendance within the company up to being the creative director and the sort of president of for whatever his title is of of of Lucasfilm. And whether or not that had anything to do with what the storytelling choices were on Mandalorian specifically. Now that's Favreau as well, you know what I mean? And he maybe has big ambitions anyway for that story. I don't know. I mean, like there's another world where Kathy Kennedy stays in charge of Lucasfilm and it has like an iron cloud like I'm going to be here for 10 years because the movies have been successful and Mandalorian maybe stays in its lane a little bit more. I'm not sure. I am not optimistic about the next few years of Lucasfilm, I would say. Well, the next few years are kind of spoken for. Yes. And I think there's a couple things to be said here. One, like as justified as much of the criticism that has come Kathy, a lot of criticism is justified. I think when you just look at how that sequel trilogy turned out and the complete absence of the multiplexes of anything for a long time, like this is not great stewardship, I would say. You could flip it and you could also say who else but Kathy Kennedy with her, the security she had in that position due to her reputation and relationships in the industry could have gotten it as far as it did in terms of getting that honestly fairly cursed trilogy across the finish line, which was cooked from the beginning when Disney was like in order to justify this acquisition, we need a sequel up and running within 18 months. Like we need to do this. Yeah. Because the opposite of what I was just sort of describing as a sort of like gentle slow food bespoke cooking of Game of Thrones sequels, which is also probably highly inaccurate. But it was the opposite of that. It was like we have a deadline and we have a date and we have shareholders to report to. Let's get these things moving. Once you start, I mean, when you start playing catch up from the beginning, you're, I don't think you can ever actually get in front of things. I think it was also just like a decision that they made that even though that they were going to push the ball forward with a new trilogy, it was going to essentially be a remake of the first film. You know, it's Force Awakens, which is in retrospect a pretty decent movie, but beat for beat is essentially in your home. Yeah. I think it was always going to be, you create this expectation among fans that it's going to be fan service. If Force Awakens had been some brave new step forward and about different kinds of characters in the in that world, I think maybe we're talking about something else. It also may not have been that successful. It's also the idea that it's really interesting to see what these are a relatively unique jobs and relatively new jobs. Yeah. Almost in the same way that we talk about showrunners sort of becoming a more public figure and a more important like franchise GM's franchise GM's. Yeah. You know, you just go and Kevin Feige, Mike Lombardi, like there's a list of people, you know, who have the vision above and below now branded bean. Yeah, exactly. Waiting for that call from below. Maybe when you hire Kathy Kennedy, what you're saying is you want someone with experience producing films in that job. And you know, she was quite candid on the way out the door in a way that only she can with the stature that she has already accrued before this, what she talked about, how solo was mistaken her eyes. She owned it in a way. And I thought that was pretty interesting. She also was like the mangled script with Bo Willemann for like this nights of the Republic thing, I think, is awesome, but is on hold. Yes. Well, it's also probably on hold because James Mangled, I don't know if it's related or unrelated, was like I'm going to take my talents to Paramount. Well, he's directing a Timothy Schallumay movie at Paramount. But he also signed an overall deal of Paramount to make it. I know these guys can jump around. No one is untradable. Yeah. I just think it's like lots of people's even designed overalls and then immediately do something else. Well, no, people sign, yes, fair, but usually not within the, like they make something for TV or there's something that predated the deal. It's anything is still possible. Yes. You don't know actually what these deals say for him, but I do think it's interesting that he wasn't like, ah, new blood in the building. Also, I'm sure that they're holding the wheel pretty tight over a Disney. I'm sure they knew for a long time as it's been reported that Kathy Kennedy was going to be leaving and Desi Follone was going to be taking over. And so that the development process at Disney has probably been slowed down to something of a crawl. I can vouch for that. Yeah. So why not? If you're James Mangled and it's like life's pretty short. Yeah. Timothy Schallumay wants to make a motorcycle Heist movie. I agree. And I'll do it. And as she says in these interviews, like to do one of these, it's at least three years of your life in your career, if not more. And she admitted to something. I don't remember if it had been reported before, but like she and her team met with everybody. And she, a lot of this was rumored. A lot of things have been confirmed by the people like off hand or off the record. But she straight up said, like, yeah, we met with Vince Gilligan about doing a Star Wars TV show. We have had multiple meetings with David Fincher about making a movie here. She can have those meetings. I think the differences we put Follone in the top chair. So what are you getting there? And more of the James Gunn model in the sense of this is a guy with a sensibility who has likes and dislikes and will be for better or for worse, the creative. It has like a very clear idea about what he thinks Star Wars is about. And a very clear idea about like what the timeline is and what the values of the franchise are. Yes. And I think that those his opinions are, I don't think this is controversial to say, fairly conservative. I don't mean politically. I just mean like there is a tech. He's a strict constitution. He's a Lucas originalist. Yes, he is. And so I think that there's value in value that Kathy clearly recognized. And like here is a guy who has an engine of stuff and stories and perspectives. And that can help fill our dance card when part of the mandate of juggling this company is kickstart the big movie furnace, but also keep TV fires going. I think she did. I have no idea if it's being perceived this way. But if I were Dave Follone. Yeah. You'd have a different hat. That was a tough interview that she did. Yeah. I thought the last part of interview where she's like Scott Burns and Steven Soderberg did a great job with this Kylo Ren script. Donald Glover is turned into a land of script. The James Mangold script is mold-breaking. Tyco YTD script is hilarious. Here's five movies or whatever, you know, that are sitting here ready to rock. Yep. Ready to go in terms of their script. And it's like have fun with the Soko. Yes. You're correctly reading. So if I were Dave Follone, I'd be like you could have gone out and been like here are the things that Dave is developing. Here are the things that matter to him. And all the other stuff I'll let him comment on instead is just like well, we've got this fun live action cartoon movie with a, you know, a wrestling book. And even her being like I talked to Fincher and Vince Gilligan is kind of like if I had my way. But also in an interview, she's like well, Dave got some real reps directing human beings on a circus season one. She says that. I would say, I would say that I just tea leaves. This is really more of a the town conversation and I'm sure the town capital T capital T. Yes. And actually lowercase. But I mean like Matt Bell and he's hot. I'm very curious to hear how he covers the story in the weeks and months going forward. I think one of the major takeaways by the way this news broke is that Dave Follone for all of his abilities and resources and connections to this universe may not have the, what was it called the ministry of what what did Tony called the ministry of propaganda and and or season two. He may not have that. Yeah. Because this did not cater to, might not matter because he has the fans. Does he saw the fact he has the base? You think he's captured the base. I do. I think that there is a like I think there is probably a Star Wars celebration watching long video breakdowns of like historical moments in Star Wars lore. There's about the timeline cares about the like movements of like what's happening on the outer rim at any given moment. And I think I think he he speaks for them. Could we call could we name them are they like MAGA like make a so good grade again? Is that been used? Because I think they are like you could fire them up and you could point them in the direction they would do you want. Jokes aside, I think this is a political job in addition to a creative and producerial job. And I think that this was a rocky rollout, especially with the timing of her leaving you know a couple of months before Mandalorian and Grogu comes out, which I think you and I have big floating question marks about. Yeah. It doesn't look awesome. It doesn't necessarily look like something. I think that I, whatever the book of Boba Fett turning into a shadow third Mandalorian season going into like kind of an adjacent Soka story. I was I think that's when I was kind of like this is this is not really like a show I'm really that super interested in anymore. Yeah. I'll go see the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What it feels like to watch like a volume movie. Yes. And I think that the other story coming out of this week that we should comment on like the shadow story behind the announcement of the change of the top of Lucasfilm was the the the the the subhead story that Dave Filoni hated and or which is not on the record. He has said on the record. Yes. What a huge mirror. Yes. Yes. My point is this is why the Ministry of Propaganda needs to step up here because the fact that that was such a heavily pushed story and it's that sort of that mean that is a that is a rumor that I heard before any of this happened like that was on Twitter like people talk. Yeah. That's the story. A guy comes up to you at Canyon coffee and says sir with tears in his eyes. Can't afford Canyon coffee on a podcast salary. We're talking about the beverages you've required. You got this for me free. So thank you Daniel Eck or his successor. Yeah. That is a narrative that continues to exist when in fact the best version of start forget forget partisanship for what's Chris for what's I mean do my CBS evening news wrap up here. Okay Tony. The best version of this would be him saying what an honor to steer this great galactic star cruiser that has room for all of these shows and we continue to generate stories in all areas and listen to the best version of every story idea. That would be a successful pivot for the new era of Star Wars that doesn't feel like retreat. Do you think that is and should be the format the the philosophy of any of these franchise GMs that there is right. To tons of different stories and different ways to tell those stories within this great storytelling. Honestly like terrain or yeah. Could it be the sort of what would it be like phase free era Fiege who's like everything is a piece of something else. There's an it's important that there's a house style that there's consistency in the writing. That there's a consistency in the tone when when when when Marvel kind of adopted everybody talked like Tony Stark in some ways. You know everything was kind of glib even if like Steve was tight and Thor was from more way like as guard. But everybody was like I have jokes no one got funnier than Thor. Yeah. Hem's worth is mad apparently. But that you could take Tyco a TD and you could take Ryan Kugler and you could take James Gunn. The Rousseau's and James Gunn and have it all kind of clicked together. That's and Chloe Jout don't leave the journals. How could I the funniest of all the movies have you rocked him yet. I'm on the record with my feelings about him that you will not be watching it. I am the if Hamlet wins best picture. Yeah. You watch it the next day. I mean I haven't seen the King's Beach. I mean that's what it has become the standard. You have a green book a couple times. Well that's my go to that's my cheer me up movie every MLK especially every MLK day. Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying or should it be because for the for I don't know that you would say Game of Thrones has a GM that has a very vocal creative. Yeah. Oh like like originator like in Martin and he can have friendly or adversarial relationships with Eddie out from mice. Yeah. Or Ryan Condal or Ira Parker and then it's the HBO machine that kind of makes everything what it is. Yeah. I think there's no one right answer it because a lot of for brief periods different versions of each of these models has worked. I think the one thing to consider when we talk about these and we have these conversations constantly Star Wars and Game of Thrones exist on the history as a timeline model where there are no alternate universes. These are all nodes on a timeline that happened and interacted with each other and you can't really as much as you may want to you cannot retcon things. Sure. Marvel and DC exists in the multiverse of madness where anything can happen at any time and you can just reboot and and Star Trek for what it's worth not that we've engaged with a new Star Trek show starring Paul Chumatti and Holly Hunter which premiered last week. So how far we done fell. That's also on a like a we can just reboot and alternate versions of these people. I'm the funny thing is that if Paul Giamatti and Holly Hunter were in a Taylor Sheridan show I would be like I'm here. I'm reporting for duty like finally come home Holly come home Paul. So I think that I think that either model can work. I think the big test for the one creative voice model in terms of DC will be lanterns which very clearly was designed to be something slightly different and then gun and then gun took over and we'll see. I'm not saying he meddled because I don't think that's the case at all. I don't think that I don't think that's a plausible timeline that he meddled but can you be both. Also the big test of guns situation is going to be the many Batman. It's doing the 50 many many many Batman. Do it the voice. Do you know what I mean? Yes. That'll be the part where it's just like it'll be a test of the audience as well. I mean I don't think the the Batrieve's Batman and the Bold and the Brave is that what it is. The Bold and the Beautiful is the soap opera the Brave and the Bold. The Brave and the Bold is the gun developed Batman story. Yes, which they still haven't pulled the trigger. Right. I think that that would be a big test of whether people are in joy like a sort of in their face multiverse not even a multiverse because that is the thing. I would say that Marvel kind of cheat coded their way into like this is how we do this is by having. Yep. We can we can instill role Patrick Stewart on out there if we want to but I would say that the over reliance on multiverse storytelling by Marvel is part of the reason. Yes. I think people got a little bit fatigued with it. It's nothing matters if you can just reset it. Extremely fatigued with it and now they have been forced to go all in on what will undoubtedly be the most expensive to film series ever made to basically make as much money as possible and ring out the ring out the towel on this one and set up a hard reboot that people might be ready and interested in in in watching. I think the thing that that's relevant about Star Wars is what is the there's no there there anymore like I understood the obsession with the Skywalker story because that felt like the North Pole of anyone's interest in this and it was if it was just there to play with like if they were if if CGI Mark Hamill is on the table for any of these stories in the historical timeline why not hit it to get that little dopamine in the series to make it feel important then when they went away from it tonally and developmentally it was hard to understand the connection because you know something like the acolyte which I think was was put together with the best of intentions and a lot of creativity and good spirit felt neither here nor there because it felt tethered to us a version of Jedi is that is very philony-esque in terms of its seriousness and everything but it so it didn't have any it tried to bring a different point of view to the same energy which I think is a challenge and or was completely different and worthwhile but what is the what is the main timeline what is the Avengers movie of the Star Wars thing and I guess it is the Simon Kinberg trilogy that he has been working on which I would imagine is is episode 10 well and starfighter is is set after the events of the most recent so that's what they're going to be doing their their developmental work but it is hard when especially they've essentially since Disney took over they have maximized a lot of it but they've also frittered away another decade which could have been spent so you know sewing the seeds of something something new yeah I know that you don't pay a lot of attention to theme park or comic book news because you're too busy reading the histories of westeros and I have this saved the star wars dot com announcement about galaxies edge you want to talk about this so this is so while this is I've if people are in a familiar Jason Gallagher and I actually did a long podcast about this while you were making Briar patch I think when galaxies edge first came out did you go no I just thought you were ready to share the you were a Disney adult but I guess not no and it is a park in Disney world where there is some narrative you're you're on like a planet called the batu don't look at me like I know now as high as her generation stuff there was also like a hotel there that was like fifteen hundred dollars a night or something there was like some sort of like you're on a starship in this hotel I don't know if that still is there if you just shut her that because of this economy but they have now had to go back to the drawing board not the drawing board but they've had to adjust the timeline of batu so that they can have Darth Vader and Princess Leia and Han Solo walking around yes because I'm a people are like come on dog yeah because like but Reg is to say by the way right but all the other new because I think it is like an immersive your your in a you know someone could tap you on the shoulder and be like do you want to make a kid the castle runner whatever and you could be like I'm going to finish my blue milk first like it's yeah it's pretty it's pretty your vibe but it's just big and clear but yes I guess that they wanted to maybe I don't know if attendance was was dwindling or interest engagement so now Darth Vader walks through it but the funniest part to me is they are so yoked to the dorkiest parts of our culture that they had to commission a Marvel comics mini series explaining why Luke's Skywalker and company are now in this in batu yeah because you're going to show up with a fucking thirty dollar funnel cake and two screaming eight year old and you're going to be like I'm going to greet us survive to be around now I mean excuse me excuse me should we do a feel true a field trip to galaxy's edge would you come with us yeah sure what what holiday would you like me to do that on Russia shop yeah there you go thank you as Ladi Evans your would have wanted oh god beautiful thing yeah it's I just feel like when I'll you I'll make it personal when I was five or six years old and I went to Walt Disney World in Florida and captain hook was walking around near chip and Dale I wasn't like wait a fucking second yeah explain this yeah Walt you know I got it uh maybe we're a little too far down the rabbit hole all this is to say just to take it briefly back to thrones is that I actually really do think thrown supports this yes because I think that while there are people who are probably like thrones original lists and really are are like we need to get back to the basics here and this is about this this and this there seems to be a little bit more of a healthy adversarial relationship between the fans and the author especially because the author has not finished these books and I think that this show shows a great way forward for the franchise itself I I at the end of season two of house of the dragon I was like until they figure out like what happens the day after um game of thrones ends I don't know that this is gonna work to keep doing things that people can easily spoil for themselves to keep doing things that ultimately are gonna be like living in the shadow of this one of the great series of I mean to aside from the last bit of it like that one of the great series we've ever had and now I'm like oh I guess I guess that you could do all sorts of things with this story I think the one aspect of fandom I mean this respectfully that is challenging for Hollywood to reckon with or feed is a deep desire that fans of various worlds or franchises have to just kind of be in that world that's why you have the galaxy's edge things sort of the immersive fan experience that's why it's not just that there's a robust fan fiction community it's that a lot of best-selling hardcover books emerge from fan fiction yeah um and it's something that is you know I understand why it's challenging because you can't as much as I would like you know a genial kind of freeform hangout show about almost anything TV demands plot TV demand I mean it's a different it's a different medium but I think that the game of thrones world as awful and violent as it is it's the same like these they're these romantasy series that I haven't read but like the fourth wing series and I don't think it's just I'm gonna go on the limit it's not just the dragon fighting the people like these are enormous books with entire societies and romance and things built into them yeah that's as much fandom as um the destruction of psychobia you know what I mean and I think that you gotta get that that's my federal holiday that's what we're observing you haven't forgotten you haven't forgotten we're actually taking Thursday off because that's the anniversary of psychobia the psychobia chords are more important to you than I believe do you think that we would have been hitting psychobia with tariffs by now I think our so the psychobia chords have proven to be had not dropped it on the ground psychobia chords have proven to be more had proven to be stronger than the NATO alliance I think that's that's canon now um anything else you want to say about night of the seven kingdoms we've said so much not about night of the seven kingdoms I really enjoyed it and I think the ultimate thing that we didn't even we only mentioned in passing is the average episode length is like 35 minutes and are you like oh god I love it I love it I'm thrilled by that does it have a feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void but with linkedin ads you can know you're reaching the right decision makers a network of 130 million of them in fact you can even target buyers by job title industry company roles in your tea skills company revenue and did I say job title yet get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with linkedin ads spend 200 pounds on your first campaign and get a 200 pound credit for the next one go to linkedin.com slash lead to claim your offer terms and conditions apply let's talk about industry okay you're saving land man okay yeah we can save land man industry season four episode two the commander and the gray lady uh which is essentially Mickey down in Conrad K doing a Christmas Carol this show is series for what it's worth a big big suckers for Christmas there's been a few Christmas episodes Chris you've been with me in the UK these last two november there is nothing bigger in England than Christmas and crypto fucking love it uh and they are not beating the good fellow's allegations with the soundtrack of this one and the you know like this is the overall vibe I saw some people on online talking about you know we're gonna see we're seeing like goat level television right now and I don't know whether it's it's a testament to the fact that I just expect to this from the show now like I expect television at this level but I watched this episode twice actually like I watched it once just straight through and I was like how much time did you take between the viewings I just immediately ran it back now I took I took the second half of the bear's game between the viewings okay and uh because I just wanted to see how it felt knowing where it was going to end seeing knowing the scaffolding in the shape yeah sure and it's just an extraordinary piece of work man like you know we just spent a long time talking about thrones if I told you that this is where like Kitt Hengton was going to be I mean would you ever have believed me now one thing we didn't mention in the George R Martin interview he alludes to the idea that the John Snow sequel series didn't go forward because Kitt Hengton basically wanted to do what he did last night in industry because I'm so in this episode Henry Matmuck we find him you know we saw him at the end of the first episode crushing up pills and playing a harpsichord and that shot takes place pretty much at the end of the first act of the second episode timing of these episodes is intricate yes there's moments that that are that sync up with 401 yes and then there's a deeper story then there's moments that are completely different events that that that's why one might want to do a second viewing yeah and I I was curious about Harper and Whitney and that stuff and like it should be their second night yes so the NNA case in this episode Harry Muck is losing his battle with depression at precisely the moment that his father lost his in his life there's the 40th birthday and on the night of Henry's 40th birthday he's visited by a series of characters some of which are real like Whitney Halberstrom and his uncle Alexander and an old priest and a mysterious guest at this huge lavish lavish dangerous liaisons Peter Greenway party that he's having first 40th birthday a guy named the commander shows up right when he is really going off the deep end he said I believe he's dropped to acid I think he's dropped acid and he comes into this banquet where all of his friends and his wife and and colleagues are there and members of the in the woman he defeated him in the by-election and he's just pissed out of his mind and this guy shows up and takes him out on a night on the small town that he basically owns and we just get you know a dark dark night of the soul with Henry Muck for the most part and then the sort of second half of this episode is Yasmin's relationship to what's happening to Henry what she wants to do with her life what she wants to do with her marriage and what she sees for her marriage before we get into the details of it and sort of some of the the different moments why don't you tell me what you thought of this episode well I want to just before I forget because I might forget otherwise what you were saying about like people showering this episode with Housanas for specifically for something I'm going to shower it with Housanas for the audacity and maximalism of it but also specifically some of the dialogue I think the structure bears repeated investigation and also praise because to with a relative economy means a 60 minute episode but a relative economy of screen time to send Yasmin on a journey that earns its counterweight place with the Henry journey so that they can end in a together is really hard to do that is like next level scripting and plotting and structure particularly when you add in the challenges of the slightly skewed overlapping timeline and the fact that they are essentially rebooting the show as we mentioned last week with new characters and new stakes so that alone is really remarkable the thing I wanted to say about the episode is this is a maybe it's a crutch but I do find that it I do find that bears repeating some time to time which is the observation that storylines or characters arcs and TV shows often really do echo the experience or the publicized known public facing experience of the people making the show and the reference example you want always uses or I always use is like oh well that's what the money is for that was the David Chase Matthew Winer relationship and he's talked about that last week there was a moment when I started going down that old oh I'm still right in a column for Grantland brain and seeing Harper being perhaps over her skis in terms of power and authority behind a big fancy desk and a big Baroque building still being looked down upon by old white people I'm like oh Mickey and Conrad are asserting their ownership of the show to a degree that is they have not done before even though they have been the showrunners and obviously the co-creators but now that they are completely the authorial voice on you know on the script and behind the camera is there something going on there and then I realized that what Harper is doing though constantly is shorting things and underestimating things and profiting from that and that is the opposite of what these guys do they are fucking whales in Macau when it comes to the gambles they are willing to take with their prize which is having a show on HBO yes I think this episode was so maximalist so so extra so unhinged that it was breathtaking to watch and there were moments when I I sang you the Philippe petite uh sky scrape walk when I was watching the episode before you did because there were moments when I was like I think they're tipping I think they are tipping too far on the wrong side and then like true acrobats they write themselves yes um the the difference between the ice cold show that industry was at the beginning and that it often is with the contoured lines of the city or the version of the city that they recreated Cardiff with the hot blooded um Tom Jones diner's diner wasn't a diner scene Tom Jones doesn't live here anymore the Tom Jones diner scene Baroque aesthetic of the season finale of season three that was recreated here is that is a wild spin and there were also moments when I was like I think they're more interested in this version of the show that is the Henry version of the show mm-hmm and when Henry returns to the city as I imagine he inevitably will now I wonder if they will be able to marry the hot and cold sides of the show like like a mcdl t it's the second episode season and I obviously we had one episode that was largely a back about Max Mayhela and Calpens characters Harper's part of it obviously but you know we get little glimpses into what they're doing but I felt like that's first episode was about tender and the second episode is about Henry so now we're about to start the third episode of this season and the players have not gotten to the same gym yet no but they're going to in the third episode when we're about to talk about a the 10th episode of the second season of a show on Paramount Plus that is just starting the show as it sets up the third season so I think they're doing things fairly economically you mentioned the season three finale which in some ways was a series finale for a certain version of the show and I love how there may not be narrative connected tissue although if you pay attention there is but in terms of like style aesthetic visual sort of bravery episodes will then give permission to future episodes so shooting what they shot at Henry's place in the in the previous in season two in season three kind of gives them a lay of the land to do how to shoot like so much more stuff in this and you know that they're using anamorphic lenses they're a you know obviously indulging in the gothic aspects of the surroundings so much so that they are bringing in ghosts and bringing in flashbacks which are not things we have really seen in the language of the show before no and I think I almost I'm itching to get to the last scene the very last scene you know there is this also playing around with the and then also lampooning the mythology of the great English man and like they almost like are three and kind of like you in the land or one and having Alexander Henry's uncle in the window saying like it like it's spring has spring has returned spring has returned like the idea that like this family is now kind of like come out of the darkness and the wilderness of this guy's depression but you know that final scene and there's you know look like it's easy to just be like it's like the graduate you know there's a there's an ambiguity to like how they feel but I thought those two actors were so remarkable in that drive you know not not the humping against the car all the they did a great job doing that right but his kind of like I'm laughing I'm crying I'm laughing I'm crying or is it just the wind blowing in my face face and uh resell bellas reaction to Henry being like we should try for a child and his blood on her lips is like come on what are we doing here they touch God yeah and I know that that's what they're trying to do with the show but but you don't get that moment without a lot of hard work one of the one of the you know talking about the structure like the scene everything that happens with the yasmine and her aunt played like played by Claire Forlani yeah um you know where where the ants parting invective is your father told me he was going to a make sure that the pregnancy was aborted if it would have been a boy and here you are and a lot about what it means to be a woman what it means to be a woman to support love submit to control whatever men in this world and then for him to say I'm better now I'm going to give you something else take care of sure it's all there but what's also there is the the casting and the you know maybe this is an economic term that I could start to understand as the opportunity or the opportunity cost because maybe all actors all ambitious or hungry actors who have been locked in chainmail or franchise armor for years need to go to a bitha with Mickey and Conrad maybe literally or just metaphorically sure kid Harrington is so he's he's dying of thirst for this role like he is embodying it with his entire self well it's so funny he's opening scene where he is embarrassed and smiling is one of the great hold camera acting performances of recent television yeah and he brings that level of commitment and intensity to every scene which is required considering the cocktail of drugs and suicidal ideation that he's existing under and the fact that he was like John snow drove me to ruin by playing that part but playing Henry muck is like by dream role but it allows him to say yeah to say I don't think I have a second act yeah you know and and Whitney says maybe there aren't second acts in american lives but the idea of being chained to something something successful in this case you're born a lord you are born rich people are touring your home is if you contributed something to this world but you are as disused and on display as a harpsichord it's it's a remarkable act and I'm very curious how this plays in the UK because I think we are just enough removed from being immersed in in that kind of like landed gentry society to have just oh I'm empathetic about the new character on my television show whereas if the american version of industry which could never exist but you know a new character that we are building empathy equity with the first thing we see is that he's standing for election you know wearing a mega hat like I feel like that would maybe turn off now I understand magas reform party I get it and personally I vote bin face every time well I just think that they're doing their best to save a soak up from that's right that's right um I find it I find it I find it interesting and it's a again that's another it's a it's a it's a wild risk to be like we are because there's a version of entertainment about this level of society or this world whether it was the world of Wall Street you know or the street um or the the upper upper class of England that is satirical that is taking the piss that is the gentleman that is um it's all a joke and we're all the victims of the joke one of the reasons why industry stays ahead of the curve I think is because for all of the bluster and all the massive amounts of cocaine I think Mickey and Conrad are softies in terms of their interest in the emotional lives of these people and and it's quite a gamble making us care to the degree that they do about people who live like this yes uh what do you think about you mentioned the Whitney line about maybe not second acts and he's like maybe not an American life the characters on the show have sort of achieved a almost total self awareness at this point when the witness the sense of how they articulate their interiority even their journeys even their now some of it may be theater and some of it may be projection and some of it may be like you know the side of me that I want people to see and I think that the Harper character specifically does a lot of like um the clumps in and heavy boots to like let everybody know like I'm a badass I'm I'm that motherfucker and then is like has like vulnerabilities and has her own pain and stuff like that but it is interesting watching you know Henry in the in the the hunt scene with his uncle and then Henry and Whitney's conversation uh Yasmin and Henry's huge fight in their in their bedroom but it's a specific kind of writing where it's like I'm not waiting two seasons or three episodes or six episodes for someone to arrive at this revelation about themselves and be able to articulate it but it is also like a different kind of writing like there is a would you would you describe it as Stagey um it's a great question I was going to say that the where they pitch it is from a line and that scene that's the nexus of a rousal and disgust is what interests them most yeah the Stagey thing is interesting to consider just because of the fact that these guys like a yeah well these guys are staging it too that's the other thing yeah it is um you know there was a it was a it was a hallmark of succession the characters would tear at each other with knives you know just say past the sausages scene a lot of sausages and breakfast table by the way um and I did see they posted some BTS of like adding more sausages to the plate so these they're having fun with it I always I loved the fact that there was just like way more food than any of those people were gonna eat and no one touched so much excess yeah um the thing the reason I bring up succession is because the tenor of the way that they talked was really beautifully and intentionally paired with the way mark my love moved the camera yes handheld sort of circling and it was almost like watching a like a you know a nature video of someone like considering getty watching these these great animals attack each other this is somewhere perched in between and I think they're getting their own confidence as to how they want the camera to move and sometimes you notice it more and so then when the camera is like in the great hall perched way back and they're not in the center of the frame I am made aware of the framing in a different way which maybe feels like they're undisplaced sure but all of it works for me because the language of the show has always been it from the very beginning that in on the trading floor you can say anything because it's ultimately binary here they're making the trade or you're not and anything between you and the trade needs to be removed expeditiously if not savagely um I think that the the language particularly in this episode felt sharp to me and I think that what I mean is like in a in a in a big scene where characters are really saying what they feel about each other or what they see in each other there can be a tendency to just keep writing it until it starts to become flabby and everything is so pointed that it it didn't take me out of it I think that there are some observations and we can get into some of specifics if you want but like the scene the two scenes that that with the scene with um yes men in her aunt you know where they talk about how yeah these men love murdering women no matter what is was a remarkable scene of dialogue sure and um I'm very curious when we talk to a Mickey and Conrad at the end of the season the genesis of that because you know famously they don't really have a writer's room and um their buddy another great writer Joe Charlton is helps with it and I'm sure they do have other consultants involved from time to time but like that that felt you know good way like other characters bringing a point of view you know or other people why love that whole storyline of this episode because it's yes been realizing that she doesn't have a family anymore at all you know it's like this I she leaps up at the arrival of her aunt yeah because she's surrounded by all these people dressed up as viscounts and whatever and she finally sees another Hanani you know across the room and goes running over to her and you know it starts with this kind of like immediate kind of connection and this immediate you understand me I'm listening to your advice and then it starts to get darker and darker and then she spots her with auto and then you know like and then when she gets to the end of the night she finds out like I've actually alone in this world and so that also informs I think not only what she does with Hayley but also like what happens why she's hanging on to this Henry thing so hard and she's giving him one last chance but that like when you are like kind of a lost at sea without anybody else sharing your name you're gonna have behaved differently than if you're like I come from a huge family and then that's why Henry behaves the way he behaves you know I also think that what one of the best aspects of the way Mickey and Conrad make television is they do I don't know if it's generational or if it's experiential or just being aware of what they like an entertainment and putting it onto the screen but Henry's journey towards and there's a direct quote you know we would rather die afraid than be present for a single second of our lives basically that that that is beautifully compelling devastating hard-earned therapy speak yes that in I don't even say lesser shows other shows that's a season that's a series sure they dispatch it in a incredibly dramatic sometimes melodramatic long night of the soul that's a choice and I think one that is again I did agree of difficulty is extreme but at the end of it I also wanted to take my sports car out on the road like I didn't they didn't crash the car yeah they came close to it what did you feel at what point did you realize we were in kind of a fight club ghost situation at the bar I mean because I initially it was like you know obviously nobody seems to acknowledge that the commander is there in the dinner scene so there was something a bit off about that first first moment he's introduced although when you're watching it you're like well I again from from from the colonies I'm like the level of grin and bear it through performs humiliation has been that that that's been established yes that like they will just keep gritting their teeth and drinking through almost anything yes but I so I was like oh this is interesting maybe this is a school mate you know who's come back or maybe this is his his like his fucking wild friend who always like brings him into the to the mess yeah but by the time they get to the pub and sit down and I actually had first had that thought about the priest which I'm not entirely sure if he was there either you know what I mean but the other thing that I thought was subtle and interesting was that the the the maid yeah Molly yeah Molly is intentionally cast and dressed as working classy as men yes I mean she she is a double for her yes and I think that was very intentional as well but when the when the bar happens and when the fight happens I was like this guy's not there I did have a moment of too much TV drift because we had just watched another show that we're about to talk about in which a character punches someone preps 12 to 15 too many times with slightly different outcome the midland police may not have left they would not have looked kindly on this they wouldn't let it go but again it's a different system um I you mentioned the Harper thing I liked the use of Harper in this episode a lot because I like giving my whole chance to play different notes and she seemed because the the weight of the world and the weight of the episode is not on her shoulders she was very smiley yes he mean like legitimately flirty and able to like be more of a human then I don't mean this is not a criticism of the performance I mean that the character was able to let her guard down slightly yes in a way that was charming and appealing and well that seemed between her and yes and so like it's great it's like being in like a very mini herald pinter play where it's like all of a sudden it's just like why have you invited me why are you here because I have to be why are you here I'm lonely why are you lonely I'm not I'm two episodes in I'm not fully convinced about Max Mangella I think that I guess I'm curious what role I think we just have to I think you have like it we'll get to the end of the season and be like ah yeah possibly there's a version of it where he is just fully the devil you know and I think that the performance and the lighting is leaning into that in the early going in which case I guess I guess I'm just curious where it's going I think I've got a way about the season itself because I'm not worried I'm just like what's this about you know I think the my comparison point and again this feels like a completely different television shows I'm about to bring it up but I was going to bring up J.D. Plus you know the last significant time that an American character came in and you know I have no idea how they wrote the character I have no idea what their casting process was like like who they were picturing when they wrote the character versus what they ended up with but he brought something that was specifically not it's not off putting it was off kilter so that I I wasn't sure how to feel about it because you're used to seeing a DuPla's brother is like a just a huffie chair in human form you know but he was obviously a little bit more than that and I liked that uncertainty I would like more uncertainty from this character in the early going especially if Harper's flash and smiles like that but that's just a purely surface level note we've alluded to lambana a couple of times our great our great dig our great drilling is over no apparently we have seasons more reserves well yes I mean there was that there's definitely going to be a third season it sounds like there could be at least five or six I don't know how that works against Taylor Sheridan's universal peacock responsibilities we'll see I I thought this show ended look I mean like we went I have a lot of fun and this show's expense but it just to be sober about it for a second I thought the show ended its second season in a really interesting place and that that place should have happened in like the second or third episode of the season of the first season perhaps as well no I mean I think they like I think that there was a different version of this show on the first season that was way more about like all the disasters that a guy like Tommy has to handle and my relationship to the show is a little bit more kind of like fun loving and forgiving when I was like it's kind of cool to see like all the different things that go wrong in the oil in the oil business and in this world and how this guy has to handle it and then the second season is largely Tommy in a pickup truck driving back and forth across Texas fielding calls putting out fires and putting out fires but like the first two episodes are kind of like that and then there's like a middle block of six episodes that are essentially like the norrisis yeah I there is a ministry of propaganda carol and levitt version of the show in which someone in the house they should be leaking this someone should leak this oh my god the fact that we ended up in a creatively fulfilling and exciting place considering all the challenges we had to go through making this show yes like please someone leak that story and even if it's pure Taylor white washed propaganda like I would love to hear that version of that no because nobody they don't care and he doesn't talk no he talks through his characters and turns out sometimes you just need to give the fair to bath it is tough to give the show point credit yeah for ending in a place as you said that if that was the goal there is a more economical and entertaining way to get there we could ask a hundred questions and I have them here in bullet point form about what any of it was for if this is where we were going I think the truth the only plausible interpretation of the show is that the showrunner who writes every episode is essentially a wind dancer in front of a fort worth auto dealership getting distracted by shiny things blowing in different directions because you can't tell me that this was what the season was all about the end of season let's just talk through this chronologically and logically the end of season one Tommy is tied up beaten a nail gun shot into his leg all at the behest of cartel boss Andy Garcia really there is more of like their money yeah but that is just like I'm going to have them remove the nail from your leg now but I own you and you have been warned yes don't do this shit again second season reintroduces Andy Garcia as the man who controls all of Tommy's sons drilling and that leads to a six episode run of Tommy walking into Andy Garcia's office saying fuck you and he goes I don't know Tommy fuck me maybe fuck you and then they run it back while their wives become friends because shopping yes okay concurrent to this was the idea that Demi Moore was in the cast of this show for an entire season last year she's swimming laps she just swims laps and sometimes strokes John Ham's cheek gives him a smoothie in a park bill yeah because when he you know they do the Taylor special it's like I thought this guy was on another ship oh yeah she would step up in the early going we see her learn to fight on the savannah by talking shit about younger women in bathrooms yes then just as she's stepping into her power we learn that primarily what she wants to do is have unhinged Emmy baiting crying freakouts where she pours out whiskey at gravestones that's what she does for about two or three episodes suddenly at the end of the season she becomes the gambler of all gamblers yes commits four hundred million dollars to a shot in the dark in the ocean a shot in the dark that we kind of root for because I thought we were supposed to root for the risk takers on the show and also that geologist is super hot with great body products and Rebecca's in love with him and once this path to be followed Tommy talks Andy Garcia into backing it then says that's a bad idea to be really talk yeah Tommy never is really for this and then came he fires him and suddenly everyone I mean this might be something that is actually relevant in America everyone here was always against this right yeah well there's a couple of things I think what you're reacting to is the same thing I largely agree with you about this we're reacting to if this was an album it was poorly mixed that is so generous my point is this yeah there's a straight forwarder more straight forward way of telling this story that hits certain beats at certain points and turns the kick drum up enough so that you're like ah yes this is the tempo or the rhythm I need to keep be aware of this but because they emphasize ainsley and Cooper and Angela doing stuff in and around Texas yeah as much as the oil drilling aspect of it and the company the mtex aspect of it it kind of the mtex stuff seems to kind of like be lost somewhere underneath a bunch of noise and then at the end they're like no no no can be has always been a gambler she's trying to prove that she like that Monty lives forever through this company yes but Nate has always known that this company was always built to be sold because he's been hiding all these boxes in the basement of this building always and he's like he never meant for this to go on he meant for it to be sold you should sell it why does Nate live in the house hundreds of miles away from where the boxes are I don't know I think he's supposed to be like overseeing the contracts needed for the drilling yeah sure um I like that is so elegant the same watching you just did no it's not same watching this the analogy to like what happened with the replacements albums I love it yeah except the original replacement albums didn't have an like an incredibly old saxophone trying to fucking underage keyboard yeah like that's not what the problem with those records were that needed to be cleaned up in the end forget about T. L. and shy my take on the season is that Demi Moore had an a J Brown type campaign oh where I believe that she may have been agitating to be traded early on and making of the season yes because I would say the amount of targets she was given did not really you say that can we make a gentleman's bet right now let's get I would say like I'm let's put a mid-level dinner on this so does that exist in Los Angeles yeah I was just trying to say like I guess that's like sweet dreams on sunset that's now closed I would I think she's back in season three well look we are existing in a universe where as part of his attempt to get an Oscar nomination will our net is showing up on the Madison next season it's first season so like showing up on a Taylor Sheridan showed does not seem to be the same as because you're saying that and it's like oh she got nominated for an Oscar for the substance she's back she can do movies and whatever but I think I think she's coming back in the third season I I'm not going to bring a logic to a Sheridan fight like that just doesn't make any sense what's in my world now and up is fucking down dog like I was and sometimes you can be surprised like I didn't know that the priority of a Texas police department would be to prosecute the man defending his fiance from a attempted rape that is on camera like that seems to be first of all great seamekensi S and getting work after his appearance on the pit last season and I I felt like even as he was saying some of the most horse shit lines I've ever heard in my life and a completely implausible characterization when he was allowed to speak when he wasn't being monologue that twice because this is the classic thing about the generosity of Taylor Sheridan Rebecca got to walk in and just it's like walking it's like LeBron walking into a gym with 15 three foot high baskets and I want to see Rebecca in court I mean it would be a remarkable performance and maybe like man this is an RV he's drive through Chris and you're dining here can you lower it? Demi Moore was on season three so Andy had to take Christy had to do it um and then and then Tommy gets to come in and do the same scene where the I guess he's the chief of police five times has to say we're just trying to consider the facts here Tommy yeah it's all such aggravated performative nonsense that it's almost insulting that it's all in the service of the sea story in a season finale that's never going to come up again yeah do you know what I mean like that's how shows go for seven years now though does this the thing is that like you have to you you just don't know what it was like deep into yellow stone where you're like what am I watching I also where there would be like 15 minute scenes of dudes that you've never seen before like eating at the the bunkhouse the shows commitment to starting all scenes with an extreme close-up of a woman in her underwear is remarkable like as you know that's true as as kids who grew up in the generation of like hoping hot dog the movie was on cinematics like who among us I respect it do you know what I mean like that was yeah have you told young Andy you never would have believed you that's a worldview that I you know I'm not immune yeah that said like the fact that this episode has the framing of shians completely you know just underweared posterior like fixing the car like how the camp that's the framing of it and then they do the same framing to introduce uh Ariana as her bruises are being investigated at the police station yes like the you know I respect the commitment to the bit even though I may disagree with the uh uh I think you I appreciate you standing up for Ariana and Shia and but like everybody's here because they want to hear you talk about pagan again wait I want to come back to pagan I did want to say that I spent this whole season seeing the credit for Stephen K being like oh like I feel like that's interesting did he do I feel like John Ford no I thought he was like for something about that name that made me think that like he directed the sequel to Elizabeth that shake our cupboard didn't get around to doing like he was just some like oh he's a British guy who's done a bunch of stuff yoman like work like this generation's Taylor Hackford who's just like um and then you go go I mean I learned that uh he looks like a pirate well or he looks like he he looks like late period motley crew yeah you know and he's married a pipe repairbo and I guess he's directed tons of yellowstone and was an actor and pipe repairbo is on yellowstone so it is so it really is all in the family yeah which I I appreciate I wouldn't want um you know spent a lot of time in England recently I wouldn't want someone fresh off the boat like the reverse me walking on to the set of the show um you want to talk about pagan let's talk about pagan the pagan redemption arc well you have a little bit of a look at this face you feel like maybe I jumped the gun let's hear it let's just what did you think fun uh well I didn't think that that was where it was gonna get left at them as good friends understanding each other no those those those two is being like incredible adversaries and just like taking down gender non-binary people of peg you think that you were you were saying this is an argument for getting to know each other a little bit more working together the aisle taping each other you and me were not so different ahead of time I was curious about ainsley who has spent a season and a half in just full on preparation for the rigors of cheerleading because you know these two seasons only take place over like six weeks I'm just did you know that no I felt like it's been years like it's only been years for me this has been six weeks in terms of their of the like the time it the time that has elapsed in between because she's like my husband died two weeks ago I'm not gonna lose this company that's cool that's wild yeah um ainsley did seem really surprised by the rigors of a professional sporting program um so it was good to pay and was there to tape up her ankles ahead of time yeah if ainsley had been working on her ankles since that of her tan all summer you know maybe she would have been a little bit more ready for cheerleading she had so been so distraught by the aromas of ferret that she broke her lifelong margarita fast it's like that that sugar is corroding I'm ming it on the lips a lifetime on the ankles is what they said I thought it I thought it was nice that they could they could be friends I thought it was nice that pagan likes music who do they like Laney Wilson mm-hmm I think that the correct take away here on your ainsley and pagan let that Zach Bryan rip after after after I really like this new record huh yeah I'll check it out the it's just it's just layer it's like a it's like a a a peasant bed I don't think in the like tournament at game of night of the seven kingdoms it's just layers of straw after another to support the initial arguments so the pagan ainsley collision where where pagan is basically like chat GPT tell me what Megan Kelly said last week and let me just embody it that was the entire character yeah this week he's like hmm nuance let me have three dipshit from high school being like hey take them out or whatever and then and then she's like you guys have little dicks and they're like we don't we watch hot dog together all the time like okay I guess it bounces out and more I'm the fool um the big broad strokes like the most frustrating thing about the show isn't the borderline incompetent writing and the insulting gender politics yeah it's the fact that every so often it drives near a good television show sure you can feel the contours of it and thus doing the sterling Cooper draper price thing that industry also did is the right move to get all of the characters that we have built empathy equity with over the course of us now two seasons into the same place into the same business not driving in opposite directions from each other all the time makes sense now Rebecca who has proven herself to be relatively risk averse up to this point her willingness to just throw her entire professional career in with this group of dipshits is wild do you think that Nate made a bit of a professional mistake there yeah what is cameo offers an interim president yes Tommy makes him treasurer a hundred percent he fumbled the bag he lives in someone's guest room does everybody get the same equity stake regardless of their boss and his workers yeah I don't think management shares in the spoils you know oh you don't think so no I don't know we don't know what kind of uh pay package treasurer comes with but I think of a man of nates age and stature I feel like president and then like a golden parachute makes a lot more sense sure he could maybe have his own apartment one day you know the Dallas or moving to where he actually works yeah um I also feel frustrated that well uh because Rebecca doesn't know anything about oil drilling really I mean maybe she doesn't need to but like she has to have her boyfriend explain how looking for natural gas and the gulf works and stuff like that but she has made COO of a CTT oil and cattle um I also want to say that the the defining feature of Tommy's life coming out of season one is I guess Tommy took a a demotion as well he did but that was for family yeah that was because he wanted to put an 82 year old who cannot navigate a wooden chair successfully in charge of drilling like look I am all for and soon hopefully will be the beneficiary of a push to include elders in the workplace like we are grateful yeah anyone's listening at all at this point but I I do think that maybe the general direction of the country is suggested that it's time to turn the page on baby boomers yeah maybe yeah could be wrong um yeah so when we get to this time this year yeah I guess because it uh I think they're on the same track of they're gonna start shooting in the spring and and have it up in the late fall right do you think you'll have a return engagement with lion man season three you have to explain to me like like what you know there's like soft asks and then there's hard to ask in terms of my continued participation in this podcast and I'm well aware of it and I like to navigate the politics as well as anyone yeah you know so I you tell me okay you tell me um um I I'll wait for that I'll wait for that season three trailer drop and the the casting announcements and stuff a year ago though the defining trademark hallmark of Tommy's life was I will not be in business with the Mexican cartels and now he's like well I mean it was he's take he's finally getting back on the casino floor you know he's finally taken a spin at the big roulette wheel at the at the young age of 70 um one thing that I do respect and we can move on from this but I did want to get your opinion on this one thing that I do like about the show and maybe this is just a hallmark of television in general you know in which I'm sure people have noticed like no one ever says goodbye in a telephone call on in TV movies because that's just extra dialogue and it's a waste so we move on when Tommy has his power lunch to make his pitch to Bob as soon as Bob makes a clear that like he would hire him he just stands up and leaves yeah have you ever done that will you do that at our business never done that because I want to I want to try all lunch meetings you know you you have to make small talk for a while you know what I do do sometimes is I think I have a like a shorter clock than than most people is that like yeah we get to the end of a dinner and some people like to linger mm-hmm I'm not a big linger at a restaurant table I want to say someone who's dying with you you're your your your physical performance at the end of meals makes that clear you when it's time for okay if I said I don't like it when you say it I'm just saying when it's time for you to go you go okay you know this is hard to be some movement there's a little bit of like there's a little bit of watch looking you know interesting what else you want to tell me about yourself it's the same thing that you do when I bring up how I recently completed effingers an 800 page book published by a New York review of books thanks to kaya you don't want to do your sportsman not really we've been here for a really long time thanks to kaya all right we will be back on Thursday with the pit maybe some movie talk I mean sentimental value that's the movie of the year the sentimental values eclipse marty supreme yes wow yeah like easily great you know hi i'm a sucker for a multi-generational family story said at euro let's uh threat there