From Uber Driver to Nutrition Founder | James Oliver Built Atlas Protein Bars

I'm sitting down with James Oliver, the founder of Atlas Bars. James Oliver is a mission-driven nutrition company built from grit, research, and a whole lot of Uber rides. After completing over 3,000 rides to fund his first production run, hand-packing bars with his mom in a commercial kitchen, James set out to create a different kind of protein bar, one rooted in science and focus and on metabolic health. Today, Atlas is leading a new category of protective nutrition. That's right, protective nutrition with research-backed ingredients that help the body fight stress and inflammation. What started as a side hustle has grown into a national brand driven by curiosity, perseverance, and purpose. Welcome to another episode of Coffee's. Before I dive into all my questions, what's your morning routine? My morning routine right now, I've been burning the midnight oil, so honestly, I just roll out and just start getting to it immediately. I know it's probably not a sexy answer, but it's the right answer. You're an ultra-marathon runner. You're a guy who literally created their company for health purposes. You don't even know the answers I get from all these mega-entrepreneurs with their morning routines. You just grind all day because you're already going to put in the work for your health, I guess. That's what you for a living. Yeah. In the past, I have done the meditation, cold showers. I've done all of those things. Depending on the season of life, I'll adopt what I need. I view those things as tools in a toolkit. If I need to use a certain tool, I'll use it. Right now, I really just love what I'm doing so much and I'll do it until 1.00, 2.00 a.m. Then I'll fall asleep and then I'll just wake up at 7.00 or 8.00 and get back to it. Gotcha. Now, you are currently in the midst of building a very unique nutrition bar. You're in a hyper-specialized space. It's the most competitive, I think, of all industries. Well, it's specialized in the sense that you're real food. Everybody else's processed, et cetera. Now, really, what was the inspiration for you starting Atlas Bars? There were a couple of different inspirations. The one that really led me to start making bars was solving my own issue. I think it's a place that a lot of people who start something where they start is they have an issue that aggravates them, that creates frustration. They think something can be done better. They figure out a way to solve it. That was exactly what happened with me. In my case, I studied languages in school. I majored in economics, but I also studied a couple of languages, including Mandarin Chinese. As part of that, I went across to China for five months, lived there with a homestay. At this point in my life, I was doing a lot of ultra-distance stuff. I was very dialed in on the nutrition side of things. When I was going over there, I knew that my diet was going to look very different. I didn't know entirely how it was going to look different, but I knew it was going to be different. I wanted to bring something with me to keep me on track when I was over there. I needed something that was shelf-stable, hit my nutritional target, something that I would feel good about eating every day. When you apply those parameters, you really just get down to a bar because it's convenient, it's small. I just looked for something that I could bring and that would last me for five or six months. I just couldn't find it, something that had great nutrition and had clean ingredients that you would just feel comfortable having every day, if not multiple times a day. I made them. I made them, and then I brought them over with me. I had them the entire time I was there. When I got back, I realized I didn't make them with the intention of, oh, this is going to be a business, but when I got back, I was thinking about it more. I realized that I think that there's probably an opportunity here and that others probably want the same thing that I want. You said something really thought-provoking to me. It's like, Joe, you can make my bars in the kitchen, which is really cool. I would never think make a bar in the kitchen. You literally made your bars in the kitchen before going to China. Yeah, yeah, they were made in the kitchen. I like saying that because it immediately communicates to somebody. You could say real food and all of that, but when you tell somebody that you could go to the store right now, get the ingredients and make these yourself, it just communicates it in a different way. And somebody's like, oh, that it's made with actual food, not some chemical, ultra-processed output that we call food. Yeah, I mean, all the bars I have, they say they're healthy. I'm getting them from health food stores. I'm going to Whole Foods to get them, but God only knows how processed they are. So the process of making a health food bar in the kitchen is like what you get, your peanut butter, you get your chocolate pieces. I mean, and you just chop it up and you put them in a Ziploc and then you add to China. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really no different than if you're like making cookies, you need something that's like the base and then you need to add in certain things to get to the texture that you want to get to, you get to the flavor that you want to get to. So it's pretty much the same thing. The challenge, and I think a lot of people who try to start a food or beverage business they run into this is the way that you make it in your own kitchen and the way that you make it on a small scale is extremely different than how you make it when you're trying to scale it. You cannot use the same ingredients. You can't use the same methods. And a lot of the times the way that you make it is not going to translate to making it in an actual facility. Now do you have a commercial kitchen that you're leveraging now? We have a manufacturer that we work with who makes our product for us. Perfect. Now walk me through the story of starting this company. Now you're driving Ubers, grinding all night long just to accomplish this vision. What was the lowest moment where it was like, first off, you're driving Ubers, which is kind of like a tough job to deal with. And then from there, you want to get into the most competitive industry that exists to walk me through that. What was the lowest moment that you had? Yeah, looking back, I honestly am kind of impressed that I kept going. I don't know what it was, but when I was in school, I wrote up a paper. It was a term project. And my professor, he was a visiting professor from Harvard Business School, so he was a smart guy. And the project was basically me writing out the thesis that I think that there could be a bar company. He gave me a good grade on it, but he said exactly what you just said, which is like, this is an insanely competitive category. Like, you shouldn't do this. And I listened to him, but I still followed my own intuition and I still thought as a consumer that there was a space for this product. So I tested at small scale. So when I was still in my last year of school, I actually just sent out a survey monkey, cold to a bunch of gym owners. And I said, like, hey, I'm a student. I'm doing this project. And I described the product. I hadn't made anything yet, but I just described it theoretically to them. And I got like 50 responses and 100% of the people said that they would consider buying it. And so that was my first indication that, OK, I think this is not just my feeling. There's some external validation that there's actually something here. So then I had to make the money to afford the initial production run. And that's where Ubering came in. So I would Uber during school, would get up at four, would drive Uber. And you got to drive a lot of hours to save up the initial capital. But I did that. And then the day that I, the week that I graduated, I had the product come in and I had to begin selling it. And that's what I did. And the reason that I decided to start this was because I always knew that I wanted to do something challenging. And I also knew that the best time to take a risk was when you're young and when you have very little to like the best time to take a risk is when you have not a lot to lose. And when you're 22, you don't have a lot of obligations. You don't have most people won't have a family or a mortgage. And so I figured, yeah, this is scary. All of my friends are going to more traditional paths. They're getting jobs that look good on a resume. And I'm driving Uber and selling bars, door to door. And that's a very challenging thing psychologically to deal with, especially when you're doing it all on your own. Like how do you, when you get up every day and yeah, there are a lot of days when I got up and I was like, what am I doing? But I think one thing that kept me going was perspective. Like I slept above my bed. I had a famous picture of the U-boats on D-Day. And it's a picture taken from the vantage point of one of the U-boats looking up at the cliffs of Normandy. And the reason I have that picture was because it reminded me that if you were born 80 years earlier, you wouldn't have this opportunity and you probably would have been on one of those boats and you would have lived a very different life. So yeah, this is difficult. It's challenging to do, but you should just be grateful for the fact that you have the ability to do this at all. That's right. I mean, that's all perspective. You started this company how many years ago? Seven years ago. Seven years ago. And do you know how much market share you have now? I mean, it's a multi-billion dollar industry. No, it's single digits. It's single digits, but it's a large market. Yeah, it's a massive market. You know, because I have some sort of familiarity with the space and like, you know, the friend I mentioned to you, he said he was in like 22% of American households or something like that, which is like crazy number, right? But that's, that's what happens when you hit Costco and you're in all the whole foods and all that. I believe that. Do you have a Costco partnership yet? Not yet now. Now it's on the roadmap and not yet. Oh yeah, that would be a crazy partnership for sure. I don't even know how you're going to be able to afford that if you're making bars with real ingredients and you're going to be selling that a dollar at that point, you know? Yeah. Now I got it. I got to ask just because I'm a marketer. I'm also, you know, a founder and CEO and I'm intrigued by someone's go to market strategy. And especially in a hyper competitive space, I'm in a hyper competitive space in the financial sector where we're all selling the same money. So when we market, we have to really hit the ground running. We have to have an aggressive strategy. What is your current like go to market strategy? How are you intending to grab market share? And what's kind of the vision long term with your market share goals? It's a great question. And it's one that I didn't have a great answer for for the first couple of years. But really it's dialing in our messaging so that we are meeting people where they're at. And that's why when we were talking before the show, if you look up Atlas, we describe ourselves as real food protein, because that's what a lot of people are looking for right now. People are looking to take the processed food out of their diet. They're looking to concentrate on eating more real, clean foods. They're looking to take the sugar out of their diet, improve their protein, their daily protein intake. And so Atlas was was built with all of these things already. So we already have all of these aspects that people are looking for. And really, it just becomes what we've seen is most successful is just communicating these things so that when people are looking for, I want whatever clean, high protein, I want something that's made with real food. We appear as the kind of obvious solution, because if you're the obvious solution to somebody's problem, the sale becomes very easy at that point. Yeah. OK, so you have competitors like Laura Barr and all these other guys that are kind of claiming something similar. Are there any true competitors with real real food right now? Or is everybody still using processed ingredients? I mean, there are a couple of companies that use like our X bar is company that they're a big company to go. They the egg whites company, good company. They did a great job of marketing themselves. And to the point about being obvious, they made it. You couldn't make it more obvious than just listing the ingredients and the numbers on the front of the packaging. The the intersection that we sit at, I don't think anybody else can really claim. And that's why we do well, because despite the fact that it's a large competitive category, we essentially do have a monopoly on the claim of high protein, low sugar and real ingredients. There's nobody else, nothing else that you can consume that has 20 grams protein, one gram sugar or less, and also clean ingredients. So the answer is both yes and no. There are others that do things that are adjacent, but nobody that does the exact same thing that we can do. Yeah, I have the ones that there's the I forget the name. I had him this morning, actually, you got to frigate them. Are yours? You got to frigate yours too. The perfect bars, perfect bars. That's it. Yeah, but they don't have to hydrate them. Their whole claim was you got to refrigerate ours. That was their strategy. You know, like, but you really smart. It was smart because they took something that was really a disadvantage. Like you have to kind of go out of your way and go to the refrigerated section to get them. And they flip that and we're like, no, it's so fresh that it's in the refrigerator. Like it's so it's so clean and made the such real perishable foods that you have to go to the fridge to get it. So they did a really good job of like flipping that around. Yeah, but it's really not true. Like you can actually leave them self-stable. Yeah, you can. Yeah, for a number of days. Yeah, yeah, they're good. They're good. The only knockout I have on them is that they're just they're pretty high in because they use honey as a sweetener. So they're pretty high in sugar. Yeah, yeah, they are high in sugar. So yours are less than one gram. I love them and I love I love the goal to go to market kind of concept. But, you know, are you running ads? Are you, you know, you're not door knocking anymore? Obviously, you're doing obviously you're on a podcast, you're on a big podcast here. So I don't know how you got in touch as a PR network. But, you know, what are some of the ways you're getting the word out? Yeah, I didn't go into the tactics. So those those points that I was saying, we run a number of ads and we found that, I mean, no surprise, but the closer you can get your product or service, whatever, to the point of purchase, the better it's going to convert. So we run a lot of ads, some of which are me just talking and me just educating people like, Hey, this is what we do. And it's there's no real. I don't look at it really as sales. I just look at it as education. In my my view, I think some of the best sales is just educating somebody that like, Hey, this is your problem. This is what we do. And I think that from my perspective as a consumer, that's usually most effective because I don't feel like I'm being sold to. I just feel like the person's actually trying to trying to help me. So we do a number of ads, a lot of paid media, and it really just communicates those same points that that we find convert really well. Now, I got to go back to the beginning of starting this company when it was just you and your mom in a kitchen. Like, did you ever think that you'd actually make this a business after college, just like cooking these bars? You're like, Mom, I'm going to do this for a living. When I was 21 and I was in college and I was deciding what to do with my life, I did a, I basically wrote a formula and it was the expected value of me starting this. And I was like, okay, I think there's a 90% chance that I fail, but there's a 10% chance that I succeed. And I think if I succeed that this could be like a $5 million company, which means that the expected value of me starting this is basically half million dollars. So 10% times a or 5 million times a 10% expected outcome gets you to $500,000. And this is when I was 21. And I was like, yeah, I think that that's like, that's a chance I'm willing to take. And even though I think the odds are overwhelmingly stacked against me, this is, I would rather try and fail at this because I think the amount that I'll learn in the process will serve me better than any of my alternative options right now as a 21 year old. Like, yeah, I could have gotten an entry level job at a number of places, but I think the experience and the lessons that I'll learn from starting something, trying to start something will serve me better in the long run. Much, much better. And you probably have more than that as a valuation now. Yeah. Yeah, it took, it took a lot, a lot less time than I thought to, to hit that. So, yeah. To hit that valuation. I've exceeded what I thought that I, what I thought was possible. And you got the lessons. So, so you got the lessons and then so from here, you can have an exit and then start another company. You know, because now you know the strategy because now you're a bona fide entrepreneur. Yeah. I think as, as you know, like if you, if you had to do the same thing that you, when you started your company, if you took everything you know now and you went back to then, like how much faster do you think you could get to where you're at today? I mean, yeah, a fraction of the time, just because I know I have all the resources. I have all the contacts. I have more contacts now than ever. And, you know, I know the playbook to, to winning, you know, so it's all just a playbook, right? And then you can just keep writing that playbook to any vertical. Yeah. I think that's exactly it. I think you just eliminate with experience, you just eliminate the wrong moves. So you don't have to like bounce around and figure out what works, what doesn't work. You know exactly what works. And so you can just do those things. And for me, and this would apply to anyone like who listens to podcasts or kind of learning from mentors, like I just get so much mentorship now that I can, you know, points of constraint are non-existent. And what, uh, yeah, what were those points of constraint for you when you started? Oh, for me, I'm in a hyper regulated industry. Okay. So I'm a bank in 48 States. So every state regulates you. So that's right off the bat, 48 States. And then we have overarching regulators, CFPB and secretary, secretary of state and the national mortgage licensing registry. And then you, then you have additional overlays by each of the state's, uh, payrolls, you know, you got this IRS, then you got, you know, here in California, you got different wage, the Department of Labor and various, uh, departments and every, so every state has their, has, regulates us. And then has their associated regulators. So for us, the biggest points of constraint as a macro company, a company like ours is the hyper regulation from all the different States. So that's why it's easier for us to roll other mortgage companies underneath us because they can't deal with those points of constraint. Now I'm on a different level. My whole goal is to basically acquire other mortgage companies and I do it at $0. So it's like partnering with mortgage companies that are fraction of our size and they'll come to us because they can't attain our level of, uh, of market share and, uh, resources and technology and infrastructure and re, uh, overarching, uh, support. And they just, you know, get to piggyback on our existing ecosystem and they spend no money to do it. So I'm in a great position because we can acquire companies that have significant valuations already for $0 and just keep doing that, you know, over and over and over. But it took us a point, you know, we're in a position where nobody's in our world, you know, like we have five competitors. That's it. And it's, it's, it's a real unique world for us. And I think it's because the mega companies that cost mega brokers are just getting bigger. And then the other companies are just fizzling away. It's kind of like everyone going to RX and RX just rolling out every single product. And that might be the playbook for you at some point, just because you're so young and you don't want to deal with trying to compete with the mega companies in your space. And then they just acquire you and then you start, start another vertical and you're 29. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? Why not? So you, so you basically have a bit of a network effect then that like in the same way that like meta or Amazon builds a network effect that the larger you get, the harder it is for others to compete with you because you have more resources, more of an ecosystem. That's it. The network effect is a real thing. And I actually haven't heard of it in that context, but this is why I love podcasting because this is my own, I learned from you. Just like, you know, so, but, but that's true for any, any sector, right? Once you become a Goliath, it's, you know, the only people that can really hurt you are, you know, regulators. That's it. That, that, you know, that, that's the only people that can hurt you. And it's the states and all they want is one thing. They just want to grind you for more money. They just want money. Oh, and then obviously you got targets on your back from people. Which is also annoying, but that's just comes with the territory. How many lawsuits does meta have? How many lawsuits does Disney have? It's like thousands. No, we have significant, you know, legal expenses and compliance expenses. That's, that's just kind of comes with the territory. You're too small to experience that now, but as you get bigger, it just happens organically. Now, what, what did it feel like for you to go from the kitchen with your mom to finally seeing actual bars on the shelves? Like, what was that? What's that feel like? Now to see your product on a commercial shell, commercial shell. I think it's a very, and you can probably relate to this, but I think it's a really, it's a, it's a really unique feeling that when you have something that literally just exists in your head, it just exists firing between the neurons in your minds. And then because you've put work into it, it gets translated from your mind into the real world, and then other people are interacting with it. And not only that, but they're consuming it, they're enjoying it. It's something that's part of their daily life. It's a very fulfilling thing to know that you can create something that helps and actually provides value to, to other people. For me in particular, I really enjoyed doing it. Tangible goods. I don't think that I could ever do software because I don't think that you get that same, that same feeling. Like I'm sure it's great to build a extremely successful software company, but there's something just like about the physical world and making something like a French press that somebody can interact with that I think is really fulfilling and cool. Yeah. I mean, that sounds like a surreal experience. It's just to see it materialize, you know, with your own bare hands. Now I want to talk about, cause you refer to this concept of metabolic dysfunction. Like it's like, it's a personal thing for you. Was there a moment that made this mission real for you? Because the metabolic dysfunction, I mean, that's a, I mean, that's a, it's pretty serious. It's a pretty serious statement around metabolic dysfunction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I think that what got me motivated to start talking about that and building around that idea is that our country is not in a great place when it comes to what I would refer to as metabolic health. We have record rates of obesity. We have record rates of diabetes. Metabolic dysfunction is effectively your metabolic health not working well. It's if you have some of these issues, there's a reason that GLP ones have taken off so much because a lot of people need that support. They need something that can help them address the metabolic issues that mostly, in my view, mostly have come from the food system. We have basically run an experiment over the last 50 to 70 years of giving the Western world, America in particular, huge amounts of processed foods. And after a couple of generations of doing that, we're now seeing the effects, which is all of these really negative effects on people's health. Part of that, a large part of that, I think is controlling blood sugar and making sure that your blood sugar can stay steady. So that's, you mentioned early in the show, that's one of the reasons why we, we did a clinical study. So we actually did a clinical study on our products at a lab a couple of months ago. And we demonstrated that basically we had two groups of people, one group consume white bread and compared to them, we had another group consume Atlas and the response to people's blood sugar. Usually if you consume something that's like, like if you have a soda, your blood sugar is going to go right up and right down. And for Atlas, we had a 78% lower response than having a slice of bread, which is really low, is very negligible. And the reason that's important is over the long term, if you can keep your blood sugar more like this and less like this, you're going to have a much better health outcomes from a metabolic standpoint. Like our bodies can do this. If you, if you ingest a lot of sugar or it hits your bloodstream quickly, your body can, can react to that and can bring you back, but it's not designed to do that every single day, multiple times a day for decades at a time. I mean, you're right in line with the current movement, eat real foods, right? With RFK's objective with Mike Tyson, he's got Mike Tyson and him campaigning. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, I think politics aside, I think it's hard to argue with the idea that humans should eat real, like the fact that we even have to call it real food tells you that there's a problem. We've done something weird. Yeah, it should just be food. We shouldn't have to say real food. It should just be it is food. But yeah, I mean, it's clearly like, if you look at countries or cultures that have adopted our way of eating the Western diet, virtually within 10 years, 10, 20 years, they see immediate upticks in these disorders that, that we're talking about, diabetes, obesity. So our way of life for the past in America for the past 50, 100 years, it's just not, it's not sustainable. And we do need to change it. And the easiest way to change, not the easiest, but the most logical place to change it is with the food that we're consuming. And we have the, like we have the ability, we have the ingredients to make better versions of what we consume. Like you can have Diet Coke or Coke Zero as opposed to a bottle of regular Coke that has whatever 60 grams of sugar in it. And the shift, I'm impatient for the shift to happen because we can, we can change it. We have the ability to, but it should just happen a bit faster than it is. Yeah. I mean, the shift is coming obviously with political campaigning, lots of dollars and celebrities kind of backing it. It's crazy to see what teenagers looked like when John F. Kennedy was president and what teenagers look like now, right? Because, you know, I saw that the, the health exams that they would give to high school students, you know, went viral on Instagram a few times and you saw what these guys were doing. They were doing insane workouts to pass their high school physicals. And now nobody, like the elite athletes only looked like that in high school, but that was the standard back then. But, you know, it's, it's, it's a great thing and it's, it's good for me to see as a father the, the shift that's happening at, at a political level with health. Because when I grew up, you know, you had to figure out what's healthy, what, you know, how to navigate these things. And now my five year olds can be like, that has too much sugar. I'm not eating that. And literally they said that to my nanny this morning, you know, like, don't put sugar on my waffle. That's already, you know, not a real waffle. It's like, you got a smart five year old. Yeah. You know, the kid, the, the, they're cognizant of this stuff now, just because they're so, you know, it's, it's really an important part of their lives, you know, and the people that are around them and the people that they're exposed to their social influences. So, and it's, it's, it's a great thing to see that shift happening because it's just going to be, you know, longer lives for them, more prosperous lives for them. Because health is well. 100%. Yeah. I think the idea of a health span and expanding that's a really good idea. It's not how many years are you alive, but how many years can you do the things that you want to do? Health span is much more important than lifespan. I mean, and we're seeing that materialize at a, you know, public level. Now nobody, your lifespan, you're going to live till 90, but 40 of your years, you're sick. It's worthless. I'm going to live till 90. I'm going to be able to live weights the whole time, you know, like, and I still want to play sports. I'll probably digress to just pick a ball. When I'm 70, but, you know, like that's the goal, right? Just to stay active, stay and vitality is, is super important. I'm big on these biohacking protocols that are popular now. I don't think they're fads. I mean, I try to follow as many as I can. But it's good to see that also the shift in Gen Zers, you know, you see a big swing in Vegas right now, like plummeting because people Gen Z doesn't drink and they don't smoke and they just don't, they don't gamble. They don't do all the crazy stuff that millennials did, right? So the shift is coming. The tide is coming towards health being, you know, the reason, a big reason for a lot of companies to change the way that they operate in general. Yeah. Yeah, for me, I, a lot of companies, they respond to demand so they won't make a change until consumers demand it. Like if sales start to decline, they're like, Oh, we should fix something because consumer demand is waning and we need to do something else to get demand going again. I, I'm maybe a little idealistic, but I wish that companies would just do the right thing initially so that you don't have to go through that process. Like if you know that what you're doing is probably not the best for the people that you're selling it to, just don't do that thing or modify whatever you're doing so that it helps people as opposed to waiting until people figure out like, Oh, this consuming this thing probably isn't the best for me. And then they stop consuming it and then the company is reactive and is like, Oh, now we should, we should do something else because they, they realize that this isn't the best for them, which I think is what your points, what you're saying about Gen Z is that a lot of them have kind of seen that these things probably aren't the best to do. So let's, let's not do those. Yeah. And that's why you're seeing Vegas completely shift their business model, which is going to be fascinating to see over the next year is how they turn Vegas into a healthy place. Yeah. What are they shifting it to? You know, they're just shifting into more influencers and, and, and making it more of like a new kind of Hollywood thing, you know, and making it more of like an area for, for people to longevity to be, you know, like a hub, you know, like a, That's a shift. Huh? Huh? Yeah. That's a shift. They're not trying to make it like come here and get like the days of, what was their mantra? What happens in Vegas, state is in Vegas. That's like dying, you know, that's dying. That idea is dying. And I love to see it. You know, I love to see that fall to the wayside. You know, the things, the blood that was laid for, for, for, for sin to sort of diminish has been great. You know, you saw that all the things that, and I hope all the things that Charlie Kirk was advocating for slowly start to penetrate the society. Yeah. And I think it will happen. Yeah. Yeah. Just, it just takes time. It takes time. It takes generations. Things got to cycle. It just takes, people don't change the habits overnight. Society doesn't change overnight. So I think we're both right. The shift is coming, but it's gradual. It's gradual. Yeah, exactly. Now let me ask you, is there, when you were creating the Atlas Bar products, was there any like major decisions that you regret? Yeah, there are a bunch of, a bunch of decisions that's just mistakes that I've made. I, I can't even tell you how many mistakes that I've made, whether it comes to certain product choices or branding choice, branding choices. Yeah, exactly. It goes back to what you were saying a few minutes ago. If, if I took everything I know now and I went back and like put it in my downloaded into my 21 year old head, I would be able to get to where I am today in probably a quarter of the time because you just know all of the pitfalls that you don't have to, like the things that I've learned, I've learned because I've made the mistakes and now I know not to do that. But you save so much time if you just don't even have to go through that process of like, I tried that, didn't work. You can just do the things that you know are the right moves. So yeah, there's, there's mistakes that have been made in terms of product, branding, distribution, pretty much every area of the business I've, I've made a mistake in. And I mean, that's inevitable with any industry or vertically, you're in, what, what did you study in college? I graduated with a degree in economics. Okay. Econ major. I mean, a lot of that applies, you know, to what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. I wish it applied. Honestly, I wish it applied a little bit more because a lot of it is, it's more like theoretical, like academic economics about like a supply and demand graphs, which when you're figuring out how to get cash to pay a vendor is not, it's not, doesn't apply at all. No, no, it does not, does not apply at all. But the most useful classes I think I took were entrepreneurship classes that really just teach you about like this, how you already financial statement, cash flows, balance sheet, all those things, which I wish I'd taken more of, but here we are. Now, what's something in the nutrition space that really nobody addresses? That's a good question. I think that in general, there's a lot of, not like greenwashing, but there's a lot of terms that are thrown around that aren't really well defined. Like people say like these are functional foods, but it's not really clear what it does to, does for consumers. Sales jargon terms. What's that? They're just sales jargon terms that just sound good. Yeah, there's a lot of jargon. I made the mistake of like abusing some of those and then I, because I saw like others use those, and then I was like, oh, that actually like my intuition that that doesn't really make sense is right. And so I think that there's still, and this is probably true in every industry, but a lot of those jargon terms, I think that there's just, it creates kind of noise and confusion for consumers. And you also, I found that you really don't have to use them if you know what people want, you just say those things and you really don't have to use them. Like in our case, we, like the product is gluten free, but we never say like these are gluten free bars, because the majority of our customers just don't care about that. And so every, every piece of copy or every second that you spend talking about an attribute or something that people don't care about is one that you could have spent talking about something that they do care about. And so I think that there's just a lot of like waste when it comes to you trying to communicate with consumers, because people, a lot of brands, I don't think fully understand what their consumers actually want. Now, piggybacking on that, like what do you think consumers care about in the health food space right now more than anything? I think getting seed oil, seed oils is a big thing. Getting seed oils out of their foods, getting sugar out of their food, obviously protein is a big one. This is, I'm glad that they're, I think that they're in the process of revising the guidelines, because for the past maybe 70 years, the guideline has been 50 grams of protein a day. A lot of people don't realize though that when you look at that nutrition label, and you look at like the percentages that like this is whatever 50% of your daily value, those daily values were based on the idea of, of preventing disease and preventing dysfunction, but they're not values that are agreed upon. Like this is an optimal amount of this, this amount you should have. So for protein, we now know it's probably closer to whatever like a gram per pound of body weight, but 50 is like the baseline. That's like what you should, the bare minimum of, of what you should consume. So I think there's this, there's this give and take between like as policy changes and as our labels get updated. And I know that the government right now is trying to enforce stricter guidelines when it comes to what food manufacturers are able to use in foods. I think that also helps shift what people prioritize in their, in their foods. But I think the big ones right now are more protein, less sugar, less processed, pretty much all the things that I'm trying to, or that advocates in the middle of. Yeah. So you're, you're using what? Monk fruit in yours? That's the sweetener. Yeah. Monk fruit is the sweetener. Yeah. You can use, if you're looking to use a natural sweetener that doesn't have any calories, you can use stevia, which it just comes from a plant. It's like a leaf, monk fruit. It's also just comes from a plants. They're both super, super sweet. Like if you ever have it by itself, it's like 300 times sweeter than sugar. So you only need a tiny amount of it. And then you can also use, there are more, there are like honestly new sweeteners and ingredients inventions that are coming out every single year. Like there are now proteins that are sweets and you can use sweet proteins that the technology is beyond me, but it's really cool to see everything that's happening because it just expands the scope of what companies like us are able to do. Now let me ask you a couple of last questions before we wrap up, but this one, you know, you could answer or don't answer. What's something that you've never said publicly, but you feel like right now might be the time? Hmm. I think that if you are, if you're thinking of starting somebody, if you're thinking of starting something, like starting a company, whatever, and, and you'd like say something, say one of your friends is thinking of starting something. They're like, should I, Joe, should I like start this and you tell them no, then you shouldn't start that thing. And that's enough to convince them to not do it. You shouldn't start that thing. So basically if somebody were to ask me if they should start something, I would tell them no, because without even knowing what it is, because if my no is enough to dissuade you from starting it, then you weren't going to have enough grit to go through with it. If just one person's opinion is enough to stop you from starting it, then you weren't going to have enough grit to follow through with it. So that's something that I've thought of and it's kind of counterintuitive because people think that you should be encouraging, but it really is, it's very difficult. It's very difficult to start something, especially in this day and age. And I think that most people, they might think that they want to, but the amount of sacrifice and just grit and work it takes to start something to make it successful, I think is a price that a lot of people are probably not willing to pay. And they're probably better off for, they're probably smarter for not. You know, I feel like that concept actually applies to anything in life. Like if anything derails your goals, then it's not, you know, what are you doing? You know, like you should be relentless at whatever your goal is. Like nothing should stop you. We have a run through a wall that goes. Yeah, nothing should stop you, especially like one person's opinion. If that's enough to stop you. Yeah. What are you doing? Now I got to ask a couple of last questions. What's a personal goal that you have for yourself? A business school that you have for your business and a goal that you have for your family? You're in your twenties. I don't know if you have a family yet, but you know, A personal goal that I have for myself, I would like to travel the world for at least just a year at one point. I got to, I got to be working that whole time on that. Yeah, I know you'll be working remotely that whole time. Right. Right. We'll be that. My ultimate goal would be, I'd love to drive around the world on two wheels, so on a motorcycle. I got a moped last year, a Vespa, and I drove it from North Carolina to New York in a weekend. And that was, I loved it. It's so fun. That's cool. So I'd love to do an extended version of that. On the business side of things, it would be great to be able to build something to a point where it's viable enough to sell it. I think that would just be a great experience to go through. It would be just super educational. And I think it would be, yeah, an awesome, awesome kind of milestone to reach and way to end a chapter. And then on the family side of things, I did get married a year and a half ago. But it was 13 years I've been with my wife now. So I don't know if we have any near term goals. Maybe getting a golden retriever. No kids on the rise. Sometimes you do. Not yet, no. Not for the next year or two. But at some point, I think, yeah. You know, once you have some kids, it'll make it all worth it. The whole grind will make sense. Yeah. Last question. You've dedicated your life to basically making a better future for society. And I think that's very noble and honorable what you're doing. So with that said, when you're in front of the pearly gates, what do you think God's going to tell you? You cut your audio cut out like the last sentence. When you're in front of the pearly gates, what do you think God's going to tell you? If I've done my job well, I hope it's just you did good. That's it. That's it. Yeah. You died on empty. Love it. If people want to connect with you, how do they find you? If you search James Oliver, you'll find my socials, LinkedIn, Instagram, etc. Or through Atlas. Atlas bars, you'll find me. Hey, listen, I got Atlas bars in my Amazon cart right now. I'm going to buy them. There's a coupon I saw. I'm like, that's cool. They're not expensive either for real food bars. I'm always looking for the next thing to give my kids and myself, actually, because I kind of, they want this step on the go. So I appreciate all the effort and the science behind making a perfect bar that's actually healthy and nutritious for people. Thank you for that. James, you've been a pleasure to have on the show. God bless you. God bless your mission. I hope you get every single one of your goals. Keep dominating, grow big, and keep helping people, man. That's what it's all about. God bless you, man. Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. We're having a birthday party at the Smith's Toy Superstore on the Elkhand Road this Saturday, featuring all your favorite characters, face painters, and more. So join our celebrations this Saturday from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. at Smith's Toy Superstore, Southern Wood Retail Park, Elkhand Road, London.