Episode 494 | D-Dot and Tracey Lee Bring The Law and Disorder

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. No, warrior's mom. No. Conductible. No, warrior's mom. No, no, warrior's mom. No, warrior's mom. No, warrior's mom. Welcome back. We lost our dear brother, Moll, to Iceman. He is not here with us. To Marys and I are here. And we have also two people that I consider absolute fucking legends. And just by proxy, through Guru, we are all family. I am here with the legendary D-Dot and Tracy Lee, outside, fresh off an album. Big clap. Where do we want to begin? Because I know both of you guys have a lot to fucking say. I can tell you where we can start at. Proxy. Can you talk to the people? Can you, you know, the definition of proxy? I'm playing. I'm playing. I'm playing. I know what it is. Yeah, it's this guy, man. He don't like, you know, I ain't gonna say he don't like, but when we start using vocabulary, you know, he gets a little, you know, what is that? Even though I know what it is. I know. Yeah, being a smart ass. I don't even know how we even linked up how long ago it was. I know Guru initially introduced me and Tracy a long time ago. And he was like, do you know this is, I was like, you know what, fuck this is. Like, yes, what's up, man? I can't remember how you and I connected. I can't either. Yeah. And I smoke, so I don't, yeah, it's not, it's not. It's foggy at the maximum. I don't remember, but it's been years. How, how did you two connect? Who? Me and Trey? Yeah. Oh, how were university? At how? Okay. How were university? That's where everything started. That's where everything started. What was in the water at that time with you guys, Guru, and with, you know, I'm sure Puff will end up somewhere in the story, but we all got to focus on Puff Shoot it all. But what was in the water in Howard at that time? The Fountain of Youth. It was a youth movement when I got there. 1986 hip hop was, you know, we had the WAP, Eric B. and Rock Kim, you know, it was, it was, it was special. So, and when I got to Howard University, it was a New York, really a New York regional thing. It spread, obviously it was in other places, but New York was at the time we were ruling the dance hall. So if you were from New York, then you had a little bit of extra cash shade, you know what I'm saying, as far as that scene went. And so, and me coming already being a rapper, coming on campus, rapping to a certain degree, having all the tapes that were exclusive, the Kid Capris, the Brucie B's and all these type of tapes, they were exclusives to the campus. So hip hop was, it was like seed and you could just see the roots playing in the, so firmly in the ground and get ready to grow. So was there three different movements where, because we've seen photos of like big red man, Poc, everybody at Howard at that's Naughty by Nature out there. Was everyone moving within that what would be bad boy time? Because I've talked with Guru about this as well. He was like, yeah, we were doing something completely separate, but we would still work with them at the same time. Was that an actual movement with everyone that early? Do you think? Guru was much younger than me, not much, but he was 90s. He came in 92s. He was like four years after I was there. Yeah, I was there 86. So Guru's movement, yeah, so his vision was different. Even my movement was different than his. Yeah. I came two years after him. Yeah. Hip hop had changed that fast from 86 to 88. You know what I'm saying? The artists that were coming in, the style of rapping that was coming in. So by the time the 90 hit, we was in a whole nother area. So in 86, 87, 88, there was a learning movement. Like we're listening and we're just all just absorbing this thing. Like what is this? By the time Trey got there in 88, me, Ron and and and Harv and a little bit of puff at the time, we moving towards what we've been hearing. Harv is rapping. I'm rapping. So he's already moving towards it. Probably like him when he got there in 88, of course he's rapping, but we focus on school. Yeah. We're here for school. So when he touches down, low and behold for him, it's there. This is his face. Like, oh, so if he had the bug, it was right there. As soon as he touched down, as soon as he touched down, it was like, oh, shit, they got mics in their hands. And that's exactly what happened. Like I don't mean to cut you off. Exactly what happened because when I got to Howard, I had been trying to get a deal when I was a high school, you know, much like in 86. You know, that was a bit of a Renaissance period. But then when I got there, I decided, you know what, I'm going to just get my education or become a sports broadcaster because that's another one of my passions, just sports in general. But I saw this guy, ramen in front of this place we call Blackburner Center, which is like the central location where everybody goes for, you know what I mean? Hook up, you know. Yeah, all that. You know what I'm saying? So, and Howard homecoming times as well. Oh, yeah. Right, right. Towers, I bet. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're talking in language. Yeah, yeah, so, you know. So when he talks about the bug, immediately, because it was right there, it's like, oh, I can't stop this shit now because it's here. You know what I mean? I thought it disappeared because we were going to be on a college campus. And we were in DC and DC was a go-go town. Right, right. You know what I'm saying? So when I first got there, I had never been to DC. So when I got there, it was a black, blackety black town. I loved it. But it was, it wasn't bad, but it was like, I want now, you know, I want my hip hop. I need that. So the tapes became the records, the wax became like gold. You had them. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, that was what was in the water. Also at that time was the Rich Porter Alpo thing with Howard and everything going on. What was it? Rafele Edmonds. Rafele Edmonds. What was that energy like where music wasn't dominating, who was controlling the area at the time, more or less? Well, their music was. You know, you go to those clubs, it was just like being in the, you know, you go to those clubs, it was just like being in a New York club, the drug dealers, the pretty girls, the people that was there, but they had mostly the head of go-go. Hip hop was like, you know, they throw it in there because it was popular, but it didn't take over the town yet. It wasn't a full takeover yet. So yeah, but at those times I lived right around the corner from them. I'm sure you tell you, I live right around the corner from Rafele Edmonds in Northeast. So the alley I lived in, my back alley was their back alley to their block. That's crazy. Right. So, and then I hooked up with, I'm sure you heard of the Madness Connection. They were the clothing line right on Georgia Avenue. Shout out to my big brother, Larry. He ran the Madness Connection and that was like the hub for unity, meaning go-go, hip-hop, artists, he was one of those and people had embraced it all. He saw, so I was able to go inside there. Now I'm learning that they just like us. Like they like what we like. It's just, this is their culture. You know what I mean? The Madness Connection was a big part of DC's culture for us to see, like you said, what was in the water and see how that water, we can throw it on some seas and where it was going to go. But also to bring it back to when I came in just to show you the difference. Like let's just say he was, and there's, you know, that 86 era and those people that came in and they were like the roots. So we began the trunk of the tree and I would say we were the beginning stages of our life. But Renaissance, because you had like, you know, Anthony Anderson there, you had Maulyn Wings there, you had the group shy there, you had Ananda Lewis there, you had Taraji P. Henson there, you had Mark Pitts there, you had all of the, you know what I'm saying? Chris Lattemutter started the Aka. All at the same time. All the noontime guys, all of them, the noontime guys that end up going down south and doing all that stuff with them. At the same time, no. All at the same time. Puff, meme, half, Trey. So if you could just imagine that, you know what I'm saying? Like so, in the entrepreneurial spirit, right? It was the entrepreneurial, everybody had a quest, whatever that route was, they were going to make something of themselves and become that thing that people kind of reach for later on in life. Diggable planets. Diggable planets. Right. At the same time. Right. Brand newbie, remember Sadat went to. Yes, Sadat. I just feel like from the 85 to 95 needs to be a doc. Just on Howard University in itself where everything happened. Ron Lawrence, I forgot. Ron Lawrence. Yeah, Ron Lawrence. Were you guys there for Big's first performance? I was. Yeah. Please walk us through the day that Big stepped on him. 94, 95. One of them. Yeah. It's very simple. Howard University is a circuit on hip hop. First of all, let's start there. When you're doing your promos, back then you had to hit Howard. All the HBCUs, Howard was the one you had to hit. One, it was in DC. Two, it was the most convergence of hip hop and HBCU from all places. So and so we knew. So and Big knew that I went there, Puff went there. So we made a movie out of it. We had cameras following us and all types of stuff. Went on stage and that's when Howard first really started letting people perform on campus like that. So we were one of the first that they allowed for that to happen. What was one of your first memories of Big when y'all first connected? When I first met him, the day I met him, I went to reach my hand out to shake his hand and say, I know you are like how you just did with Trey. I'm like, I know you. I watched your video music box. You know, I try to be humble and you smoke. Like you smoke. I was like, of course. And that was it. And then, you know, after a while, I didn't stay long because I was just there on some meeting. But after that, you know, I remember he didn't necessarily ask for me, but I came one time and he was like, yo, you ain't been around in a minute. And I was like, yeah, you know, because at the time I was working, I had a job. I couldn't be at like them up under them. So I was like, yeah, I come around when I can. And he was like, yeah, man, come spend some time, man, fuck with you. I knew a couple of those old G's from around his way. So and then we just we just connected like that. So we were talking and, you know, he liked the fact that I was kind of, I kind of wasn't up under them. But when I came around, Puff showed me like a little bit different respect than people that work for him. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So yeah, we clicked instantly. Yeah. And what were those sessions? We've seen docs and movies and everything where, you know, they make Puff look like Morpheus in a Versace shirt of certain sessions of like, here you go. Here's juicy. Like what were those early days of even before Hitman just just putting together that first big project and what would become bad boy in itself? Because the sound started with y'all. Yeah. Yeah. My role at the time, I wasn't really involved with ready to die to that capacity. I was there. I was around. I was in sessions. I think everybody got to put in perspective that if you close your eyes and envision the session, there's Biggie who's 19 or 20. There's C's who's 14 or 15. There's a bunch of cats from Brooklyn around big who've never even probably been in the studio that big before. There's Puffy who has had a certain amount of time in the business, but not 10, 20 years yet. And there's probably the producers like the Pete Rocks, like the beginnings of what's the name, Track Masters and then Easy Mobility. For some reason it doesn't get credit for Juicy and the Pete Rushes. Easy Mobility and all these other people were there. But at that time, nobody was, you know, Quincy Jones. Nobody was the outstanding. I understand all their things, but I sit back and laugh because everybody was babies. Everybody was babies. So to act like, you know, Polk would have made a better record than Puff or Pete Rock would have made a better record. We don't know that. That's like arguing championships with Jordan and Pippin. We don't know what they would have did. You know what I mean? I mean, we know what they did without each other. They didn't win. We can honestly say that Puff's role in that was probably the most experienced in record making in that studio. So seeing him doing what he does. He's saying you said it was record making. It was record making. It wasn't rapping. It wasn't beat making. It was, you know, take a song, an artist, a writer, a situation. He's able to cook it and make it a nice meal. So at that moment, he probably was the most experienced at that time at 23. Yeah. Right. 24 or 22, whatever how old he is. So all the hate and all this, who was supposed to do it? If you have to say, say yourself, if he wasn't doing it, then who would have did it? Did he form the hitman? It was his idea. Okay. Yeah, it was his idea. And what was with, because it was three of y'all told it right, four? I know more got added at some point. Who was the core? Who is the core of hitman? The hitman was four of us. It was myself, Stevie J, Nasheem and Ron Lawrence. Chuckie was already by default his number one hitman because of coming off Mary in the first thing. But at that time, Chuckie had started Chuck Life. God bless Chuck. You know, R&P, R&P Chuck. He started Chuck Life Productions. So he was ready to start his vision. So he wasn't the main source anymore for Puff come 95, 96 years around. So Puff decided he needed to find a replacement for Chuck, which was Stevie, but not a replacement, a bullpen player. Somebody else that can come in when Chuck ain't there. And Stevie was very talented. Like the instrumentalists, if you will. Another musician. We needed a musician to make some of these other things come to life that sample producers couldn't do. And the musician may not have had the vision to do it. So again, all these haters have to understand what a producer is and not a beatmaker. So Puffy was able to take musicians and say, play this bass over for me so we can filter out the sample and have a more thicker bass. And then I can tell you, you know, I'm going to skip a little bit just to give you that understanding. When we tried to clear hypnotize, Herb Alpert initially said, no. The cousin, Randy Badass, who was co-produced on it with him and was on the song, he heard it and convinced his cousin because he said, listen to what they did to it. They didn't just loop it. I never heard this. They put bass lines on it. They played other chords on it. They took the woo and they put it throughout the whole song. So they took hours, but listen to what they built on it. So it's not totally just taking your creation. So Herb, you know, Alpert, thank you. But we added on to it and that genius comes from the producers that can see the vision. It's funny to mention that because just I think yesterday I got a story to tell by Big, the original one came out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It had leaked and then I didn't realize what Chucky had done to that record. Exactly. Was absolutely insane. Exactly. But it took Puff to say. Usually the sample version sounds better. Right. I got a story to tell version now to me is better than the one that leaked. Like Chucky replayed the shit and made it 10 times better than what it really was. Exactly. And that took the visionary of the producer to say, this is what's needed in order for us to overcome this hurdle, which was we couldn't clear the sample. So most people would have just made a new tried something else, tried another sample, but it was so infectious to us as producers. Me and Puff sitting there, we can't let's just slide. So let's figure this out D what we're going to do. All right, let's get Chucky. See what he could do. Let's go. Was there immediate chemistry between the four y'all when Puff brought everyone together? Well, absolutely. Me, Ron and Nosh already knew each other. So Stevie was the new guy. But I mean, Stevie could, he could play all the musicians. I mean, he'll tell you 22. But initially when I met him, he was playing four, which was more than enough than what we needed. He probably played more, but he's playing keys, drums and both guitars. You know what I'm saying? And not to get off where we're at here, but the first day that Stevie J ended up falling in love and hip hop, what was your thought? Oh, the first day? Like when he showed up, say, my name is Stevie J. Welcome to loving hip hop Atlanta. To me, he's been that. Yeah, he's not. I just laughed because I ended up managing him for a second. But you know, while he was doing that. So I know what he's doing. He's very calculated. Do he's a Scorpio too. So let's not get that twisted. You know, it's very calculated. Do it. It didn't surprise me at all. I already knew what the rainbow was. He was looking for at the end of that one. I mean, the pot that he was looking for at the end of that rainbow. I've never met Stevie J. Never been around him, nothing. But obviously I knew who he was because I'm a fucking nerd. So but I also watched Love and Hip Hop and I was sitting there with my girl at the time. I said, that has to be a different Stevie J. That's not the same Stevie J from Hitman. I thought it was another Stevie J. It was the same, you know, actually you're right. But in the opposite, I wanted him to go on there and play instruments to show that part. They almost didn't. It was almost like they didn't want him to. Yeah. That it took it to a whole other level. If they would have saw his talent, him just. You know, they like go easy. You know what I mean? And he does it effortlessly. That's the part. Like it's like, wow. What's some of your favorite memories of the life after death sessions and putting that album together? Skits. No, skits. Nah, I mean, yeah, those are. The more John Blazor that skits were funds, most believe it or not, most of those skits were done when Biggie wasn't even in, you know, those skits where I'm laughing, I'm saying, you know, get you all type of skits. Biggie was in LA doing those in his truck. Like, like, you know, those phones that you have back in the days where it's like black and you could put it to put the phone on speaker. Like office phones. It's just like this. We had the mic onto the phone. I'm on the phone with big on this side. He's in the truck and his voice is coming through the speaker. We got the mic then I'm going to get you, motherfucking. Faith. And I just bust out laughing. Like all of type of all of type of those were those are super funny. But I just think the freedom of. The free for me was the freedom of being able to put my stamp there for me. Yeah. With a visionary that kind of gave the outline, but then box us in and allow me and big and the other artists, the locks, makes all of them to just say, go for yours, but I needed to hit this mark. I'm not going to tell you how to hit the mark, but it got hit the mark. And that's kind of how anybody kind of wants to be coached. Yeah. You know what I would think? We we try to get here. I'm not going to take you step by step to get to it, because I know you got some things. But the goal is to get here. So if you don't get there, then I'm going to, you know, put some things to tell you signs of things that can help us get there. That's what his role was. But he and if I recall, like, because we had the listening session at Daddy's house, you know, I'm saying, you know, drinking and there's a lot of pictures out there with us in the studio, drinking, and seeing all this other shit. But he was super proud of the end product to me. That's the vibe that I got. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, because every time a song goes off, be like, yo, Trey, what you think? You know what I'm saying? For another, yo, Trey, what you think? Like, like he was really vested, you know, in that in that project. You know what I mean? Life after death to me, you could make a case with all eyes on me as well. But I think it's the only classic double disc that exists in music history. Is life after death. Let me think about that. And it's there's not a skip on a double disc. Well, I don't even know how you achieve something like that. Was outside of juicy, most of ready to die was pretty fucking grimy. Like it wasn't palatable the way life after death merged both those. Oh, it's definitely a change. It was definitely. Was that like intentional when you guys started that with big like, bro, we going juicy all the way on this one. The album starts off with previously on life after the previous. You know, ready to die. Yeah. Because it was almost like. We brought it back to life. Like, and usually when people come back to life, they have a new take on life. Yeah, it's coming off suicidal thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's what it's coming off of. Yeah. So I wasn't in favor of the concept. You know, they knew that back then. That's that's been never been a secret. I didn't go to any photo shoots. I didn't like all that cemetery shit. I was definitely not in favor of it at all. But, you know, it wasn't my place at that time. So but I understood and I understood the magnitude because I've said on other places, we did that album. We storyboarded that out. So what your comments are, it makes me feel great because that's what movie directors and producers and executive producers want. We storyboard this thing because we wanted to have this impact in life after death with storyboarded like a movie. Yeah. That's what I'm super proud of that. I mean, that and they got to hear it. That's the that's the beauty of it. He didn't die not hearing his finished product. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm I'm I can only imagine that's like really speaking words into existence. And I don't want to get too dark in that. But yeah, it's crazy that you thought that out the gate of like, I don't want to be part of something called life after death. Like, unfortunately, it manifested itself in that regard. But I don't want to be a part of it. I just conceptually, I just didn't think, you know, my mind doesn't go that dark. Guess that's what it is. Yeah. You know, I don't even talk deaf and all. You know, I just don't speak it up. So but the records didn't even indicate such like you look at the album cover and then you listen to the music again. That's purposeful. I'm sitting in there saying you ain't gonna have me talk. You ain't gonna have me and making records like like this. I mean, me and big have had our back and forths about verses and songs and, you know, nah, aside from Puff, because nobody really wanted Puff in the studio because, you know, he's a hands on person. Yeah. So those moments you talked about that was I was proud of when me and big were able to just and I was able to say, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Where was Big's actual mind at during the Pock thing? Of course, you got the bar on reasonable doubts and fads when you should probably have two Pocks, whatever, but never got like a real, I think a Dilla Buster I'm shit leaked. That was no, that record is incredible. And it's crazy that big rap on a Dilla. Play dead Joe from the diamonds on my neck. Dead point was. Woo. I think it's on you. I think you can find it. It leaks and then gets deleted. I have it. OK. You play dead. I'm saying for the people listening, you can find it somewhere, I think, in the depths of the Internet. Yeah. Yeah. That joint was. As soon as it came, as soon as it came off the presses, I was like, oh, Lord, have mercy. As cool as Big played a lot of that stuff of looking like he wasn't affected by any of it. I can't imagine that there wasn't conversations about everything that was going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The story real quick is, you know, just back in the days, videos was getting announced. They came in the studio one day, we happened to all be in there, you know, hit them up is coming on the TV. Like, you know, that's what you tuned in, you know what I mean? And we just was in there like. Oh, shit. Word. Hmm. These these. Word is like that. Like we didn't know it was like that. Yeah, it's like that. Yeah. So of course, first, as people heard the story about Dig Him Up and all that stuff, because that was a conversation. You know what I'm saying? Like, is he really dead now? Like we're going to, you know, like, but that was we weren't the antagonists. That's not our style. So I don't know. So our big response was, wow, I'm not like that. I got to let this dude know that it's not me. You know what I'm saying? Like what's happening here? But this is a blood sport and I ain't no sucker and we ain't no suckers. So. Chest is chest. So we're going to play chest. So we didn't, I think was let's just beat him with hit records. We ain't going to do all this. Let them do all that. Every time they turn around, bam, boom, boom, uppercut, uppercut. You know what I'm saying? That's that was us. Yeah. Fuck it. I cannot believe how mature Big was. He didn't want to be. Let's not get his twisted. He was like 24 year old to have that reaction to that is admirable to be. Not a reaction was. Visceral, visceral reaction was. We we we everybody, you know, he got gutter, he got D rock, he got banger, he got all these dudes, you know what I'm saying? He got a ruger. He got all these people that ready to, you know, but that ain't us overall. When remember, there's a pot at the end of this thing we kind of get to. We still got a goal to achieve. And that's when 24, 25, 26 year old comes in, 27 years old come and say, I ain't come this far to come this far. Yeah. Right. So think about it. We all under 30 making these type of decisions that critics sit back and be looking at us like we were 50 year old presidents of companies. We're all in our 20s. All children, children in the business. Not children because we fathers, we we grown as men. But these situations were in how to business for dummies. We didn't have these books. We didn't have OGS guiding us like that, right? From the community or in the business. Right. So I hate when these dudes sit back with this criticism as if we were giving these books and given this law and given these commandments and we didn't follow them correctly. You know what I'm saying? That's that's that's that's what. So when the young lady asked what we want to talk about, we want to talk about hip hop's creation of folklore. OK, hip hop's creation of opinions where now they believe their opinion is so powerful that they start to believe it to be true. So who shot you? Wasn't a group effort to sit in here and say, let's make this long as five minute record about clock. Like, are you fucking serious? Real, five minutes, we're going to get it. Do five minutes. We're not doing that. Yeah, we're not doing that. So squash all that. So that's what I'm saying. These guys come in and it must have been or what ifs. And, you know, and I'll be like, yo, facts. If we just talk the facts, all this would be. There would be boom. So I mean, big love, Poc, until it became time was evident that it was just a game we're in. So that's when you start realizing that these relationships are temporary. Yeah. Necessary and temporary. And it's outside. So like on our new album, we explain that because we had a moment. Yeah. And we decided that we couldn't let this game change some of the things that we went through that they had to have some meaning. Yeah. So for big, some of those moments had meaning because you had big daddy came talk about how when they brought him together, talk about moments when they were together, you know, he has stories about his wife. You know, they made up story, whatever the stories are. But you got to deal with that in real life. So why go through all that if the relationship ain't real? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. So, you know, that that was kind of the. Do you feel like that it's been a bit exploited with everything that is now like it's it's become a whole genre in itself on YouTube when it comes with Poc and Big. And yeah, because they're interviewing random pedestrians that happen to be walking by that day at this point that are giving full narratives to what happened. Exactly. Exactly. So at this point, you can't change it. What I just am going to be totally against is when I hear someone trying to rewrite history. Yeah. There wasn't even there. There wasn't even there. Yeah. That's when I step in and say not that I'm the, you know, I'm the history police or nothing like that. But if my legacy is attached to that and it starts to get a little tarnished when I try to keep my shit polished, then I have to speak up. Yeah. And that's what my issue is with some of these stories. So Big Love Poc, he wanted to work out. It didn't work out. Unfortunately, life took us on that crazy turn. And yeah, it was that. Trey was there to with, you know, we were actually at the party that night. He was there to we were all there. I had left. We all left like together. And I remember I recall this and basically we left big was right here. We both left out and I was I was feeling kind of a I don't know what I was feeling, but it was just awkward. And he was like, yo, Trey, what's the matter? I said, I don't know, man. I just don't feel he's like, no, chill, playboy. We about to go to the playboy mansion. We was headed to Hugh Hefner's joint right after that. You know what I'm saying? He goes to the right. I go to the left. Next thing I know, Mark Pitch gets a call two minutes later. You know what I'm saying? He got shot. What what did y'all do? Did y'all go right to the hospital? Yep. Yep. Right outside. Matter of fact, I probably get because Mark went in and Mark came out with the news first before it even hit the masses outside. Seeds came out first through the side. Yeah, right. Seeds ran out through the side ambulance entrance first. Right. Screaming, shirt off, pulling the shirt off. Everybody in the front hospital was here. You I just don't see. So me and Chris Lattam was shot to see on that side. Mark came with me and he was my boyfriend. Yeah. And then that's what told me that's what everybody knew. Crazy. Yeah, let's pick this up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got a dog real quick. Pick it up. Pick it up. Let's pick this up. It was not my intention to go down that way. You got a dog. Let's pick this up. No, warrior. Maul, your family reached out to me over the weekend. They are very concerned. It was just just notified that you are overpaying for your wireless right now. And your family is very concerned. I know because you could just unlock savings with twenty five dollars a month forever with Boost Mobile. It's a permanent price. It does not change and your family is sick of this. I keep the same number. You can keep the same number, the same phone and someone will come and just just do it for you. They could come right here. Yes. He and yes. So stop terrifying your family. I'm tired of getting these calls. They're concerned for you. This is an intervention. This is an intervention based on average annual single payment of AT&T Verizon and T-Mobile. Customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited Plan. As of January 2026 for full offer details, visit Boost Mobile dot com. All right. Coming off a very morbid part. Yeah. New York after after Big did pass. Yeah. New York was in a very interesting place between Nas already being nice. Hove, Bublin, Wu Tang. The lane was open. But what was that like in 97 when it was wide open of who was going to be number one in New York City? I mean, that was the least about they went right. Hove went right to you. That was to start at volume one. That was the least I thought. Our thoughts were the the the the person who started this, which was Puff, was ready to quit. So your journalists are, you know, back in the days, the Puff's album originally was called one time was called Hell Up in Harlem, then one time was called The Good Fellows. Never knew that. And the one I was like, that shit ain't going to work for me. Now I'm saying why not? Because, you know, reality is that's my friend always, but he wasn't a real rapper. So for us to take the approach like this is going to be a statement was different, but he was ready to quit because it was just a lot. His friend, you know, so that's when I came with the title, No Way Out. So we weren't thinking about anybody else because there was there was no competition with Jay was still not. Yeah, reasonable doubt. So like 30,000. We weren't even thinking and and Puff was already going. And no disrespect anybody else. Just. There was a iconic level that they had achieved that it was going to take a lot. Nas is not like Nas is one of those people. You can't really put him in anybody's box because his stripes have been earned through the mud. And and his his his general, his his admiral ship is earned. It can't be taken away. It can't be boxed in. So there was no nobody that we were concerned with. The calls came in because they knew that the sound. Was still happening as they were speaking. So even Buster Vines came out with a record that had a similar bop. Yeah. And vibe to the Benjamin. It was dope separate. But in my humble opinion, it was. In that in that vein, it had that boom. And then I was telling you earlier, we get the call from Rockefeller. Yeah, because there's a rush to get. We want your sound. We don't know who's going to be the next. But we need that sound. So Rockefeller called they that big died in March. Rockefeller's album that volume one was out in December. So can you clear up if those were throw away big beats? Sunshine City is mine. Like a scene where those throw away big beats. OK, so that's that's that's already what I was talking about. Where does the term throw away come from? I don't I don't. Since when does anybody throw away anything of value? Yeah. So that's what I say when you guys make up terms and run with it. There's no imagine me saying, yo, these is my throw away beats. Right. Throw away beats. Now, I understand the concept. They might not sell as much as another one may sell. Or I may give them to an artist that is not as hot as whatever. But there was no such thing as throw away for nothing. First of all, big was custom fitted artists, meaning you could have played big 20 beats. It don't mean they wasn't hot because big ain't take them. Yeah, it just mean big ain't feel them. Big didn't like the world is filled. You are cringe every time you say that. The locks didn't like the Benjamin. I cringe every time. So we say now because the locks didn't like it. It's a throw away beat. That's idiotic. And that's what I'm saying. The journalistic terms that people come up and run with is where I'm like, where are you getting throw away? No, they were beats of this, like a thousand other beats that primo may have came for big. Yeah. That Buck Wildman played for big and he didn't like them. They don't become throw away because big didn't like them. Yeah, they become someone else's. So there was no such thing as throw away bigs like we's going to use it for big, but it wasn't hot enough to give it to Jay. Shit, don't make no sense. It might have been big, didn't like it or puffed in like it. Yeah. For what we were doing to fit the project. I mean, for volume one, like I always felt it volume one was the best representation of the hitman to me. I know that's like not a popular take. But if you go from the difference of a sunshine to Stevie J. Doing Lucky Me to you doing where I'm from, that's the craziest range of music. Galadier I've ever fucking seen. And didn't know that sunshine to where I'm from is like, what? And not. How do you do both of those things? And what did I do? Did I do the one where he he sold drugs to his moms? Of these. Oh, um, the Miss Miss Miss Miss, not missing me. You must love me. You must love me. You must love me. That was not seen. Yeah. To me, stories volume one is I know you. I know you go through everything you guys did with Mary, everything you guys did with big. But to me, I have to share total ones, everything to me. Volume one is the quintessential. This is what the hitman are in the range. You know, you must love me. Like that's even crazy. I don't even know that for like. Right. For for for for artists, that's not bad boy. That's not directed by puff. That's not y'all think is programmed by puff because he didn't do that in reality, but people think. So is that your favorite in this catalog? No, not even remotely close. But but yeah, I'm just still I'm not trying to go down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, I'm just posing. I think volume two is a classic. But I'm a host. And here's what I'm great. I don't really do this, but I've seen this out there. And what's crazy to me is one of the songs from over volume one is still one of his top five songs out of all them albums and blueprints and all that stuff. You told him about where I'm from. Rolling Stone named it his number one song. I can say it's his. But he told me to my face. He did a show where he did where I'm from. You got to do that. I'm not saying this because you're sitting on the couch. That's my favorite hip hop. It's either shook ones part two or where I'm from beat that are my favorite beats I've ever done. My favorite J-Racker. Like it ain't even close. It's the one beat. And I'm not just saying that because you my man. But that ain't like out of all of the records that J got. And you got a lot of them. You got a plethora. That dream right there. When I'm from. Did you have hope in mind when you were making that or no? That's my point. No. No. How old was that beat when Hove heard it first time? It was fresh off the presses, but it's it's we make our own Stanley Steamers. But if I sat around and had to please another artist's palette, I would be broke. It's a bar. They have to get into our space. That's the relationship. I play you something. My vibration cues yours. And even if you're a rapper and you're dope, your vibration may cue me to make something. But you still got to love it. Yeah. In order for it to become the fruition. Yeah. That's real. I can't just make anything because I think Nas is going to like it. Yeah. And then you play it for him and he looks at you like that ain't it. Yeah. So no, I don't know producers that, you know, unless actually you're working on a project like if Justin Timberlake or Chris Brown or somebody came to me and said, I want to work. Then I'm doing my homework on those artists and I'm probably going to cater to that artist. But if I'm just like these average guys making beats and waking up and getting a new NPC sample and just making a beat, I'm sure they're not saying this is for Drake. And when I send it to him, he's going to love it. Yeah. No, I made this beat. Drake gets it. Jay gets it. Whoever gets it, it's for you. Yeah. All right. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Did y'all think Jay was going to be what he was at that time? Yes, I did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was around it. So his work ethic is study. You know, he studied. Come on, man. The guys just look up. They still just don't look up. They put in the work. Did you think I would? I was I was I did you think? Well, I was six when reasonable. Talk him out. Damn. So I went back the first the first J album I heard was volume two. I don't die. I'm the first J. I'm my was was volume two and Jay was already not a star at that point. But yeah, he was Jay. By the time by the time I heard that. Yeah. Volume two. Yeah, he was he that that's one of the other things. So how old were you when volume one came out? I was seven. OK, so yeah, 97 was volume one. Right. So so think about this. So think about this. How hard is it? To listen to albums that predated you or predated your ear from when you really became a fan? How can you honestly judge that album? If you weren't in that moment of time? So I may have a love. That's a great question. I may have the love for Stevie Wonder's albums. I may think he's one of the greatest artists, which I do of all time. But my appreciation for Stevie will never be the same as my mother's. It will never be the same as somebody of when it impacted because music is the sign of the times. Yeah, not of the future in most cases. In nine times out of ten, music expresses the times that we are in. So if you catch on to an album ten years later and are able to criticize it and not able to put yourself in those times, is that criticism fair? So I 100 percent agree with you, but I think that's the definition of timeless. I was not there. I like this. I like this. I was not there for a reasonable doubt. And this is kind of like my. I almost sound like the old man, get off my lawn in this regard because I think that's what's lacking in music now. I don't think this is going to be timeless. I was not there in 1996 when the reasonable doubt came out. But I can hear that and see the embodiment of genius and classic in it. I don't need to be there for that because that's times I don't need to. Marvin Gaye was going on. I don't need to be there to know this is but it's hitting my soul. Great, great. So so with that said, I have like, you know, I was in my late teens, early 20s, during the blog era. There are certain mix tapes that hold near and dear to my heart. But if I played that for somebody that wasn't there for that, they'd laugh at me and go like, bro, you like this? Yeah, because I was there. You wasn't there. You don't know. Timeless to me is reasonable doubt. Timeless to me is life after death. I don't need to be there. To understand how amazing this music. I didn't say I understand it. I said critique it. See, there's a difference. Some of them. But that's the like someone can critique the blog era. Shit if they wasn't there. It's cool. I get it. If you wasn't. There's Lil Wayne mix tapes that I know people are like, bro, you really like this years later. Of course, I do because I was there. There's also timeless shit like what y'all did, right? That my daughter, who's three years old, when she's 15, when I play hypnotize, she's going to feel that like. Right, right. But if I play her a mix tape record from big crit from the blog era, she'd be like, dad, what do you play me? Right. But that's the difference to me with time. Why can't you critique it, though? I'm not saying you can't critique it. I'm saying how you critique it is. So, for example, you can't compare. Future. And in this moment in time to a classic made in the 90s, for many reasons. But some of the critiques that come based on what I hear. And I'm saying not everybody does it. I'm saying, one, technology changes everything. Some of these dudes are able to put themselves in your ear and in your faces more so than we were. So to even get one of our songs, you have to work at it. Right. So if you critiquing someone's album from back then, the work that went in to put a tape on that machine to get the sound that we wanted out of it, precious to know that we only had even though it said 48, we were could only really use 46 because we had to use one for sympathy and you had to keep one away from the sympathy. So we were putting three things on one track to make it sound a certain way. So the critique is like, huh? Do you know what we had to go through to get this song to this point for y'all? Whereas these guys can go online and say, give me a beat that sounds like Future or sounds like Drake and it's pop up like a toaster. But isn't the end result the end result? Like at the end of the day, regardless of what the process was, the end result is the end result. Is it dope or not? We don't that. What is the end result? Is it dope? So what my question is, what is dope? And who gets to critique the dope? This is my thing is to your point and Future is not the example, but there's plenty of artists that would not be artists right now, unless it was a lick. They realize you make sure. And I'm telling you, you also get a fan base that does the same thing. They're not music fans. Right. They just want to be heard and critique something. But that was an error to that. It was an error. Definitely. Everyone has a voice now. So you can critique something without listening to it at all. You're not even really a fan of music. You're a fan of critiquing. So I think that's what I'm saying. So that's what I'm saying. I wouldn't even focus on that because those people wouldn't be speaking unless it was trendy to get there. They're not really critiquing. But you want to just be outside. I'm just saying you have to speak on it because they're filling the spaces in that me and Trey talk about this all the time. If we were able to get around some of these blockages that are because of opportunity and technology, what you're asking for would probably filter through. But in order for people like us and our age, there's a whole wall of system that you have to go through simply because I can critique. So I will. Yeah. And if you multiply that. And it was a word in exponentially or exponentially exponentially. It's people like you said that could just wake up and say, I don't like that. And here's why. And then there's a bunch of followers of people that will now jump on that train to just because they can. Right. It's monetization because I can get paid by X right now by typing something out and the most engagement is going to be focus from a hateful world. It's negativity is going to spread way quicker than anything. And it's the same way with artists that make shitty music. You wouldn't be an artist unless you knew it was a lick. You wouldn't be a critiquer unless you knew it was a lick. It's more a lick at that point. Yeah, I get it. Like, and I don't know. Even now, it's it's it's trying to hate Jay Z now, even when he's he's about to fuck. He's selling out Yankee Stadium three nights. I put it right up and it's become trendy to hate on him because if I put up a tweet on X right now, that is, yo, hoes of fucking rapist, terrible rapper. I can make money off that. But that but that baffles me with I mean, you know, it's outside of music. Jaylen Hertz, every blogger, every you mentioned Jaylen Hertz, your hits go up exponentially, you know what I'm saying? Or any type of hate towards Jaylen, like cats that that that probably would never talk about. He's always in the forefront of every year. If I'm saying puff, if I spoke on puff, the way that other people did and went and told Derek Angeletti stories. Boom, I probably have seven point eight million followers right now. I probably know what I'm saying. Like so that's what I mean. Like the sensationalism of it is a little difficult to get around when you trying to do what you're looking for and find timelessness in some of this. So it's almost like we talked about is there ever going to be a hit record again? Can I call you a hypocrite real quick? Yes. You were 50 invented this shit. Invented what? The hate. How to Rob is the first troll that's ever existed. You invented this. Yeah, yeah. But but it came with a disclaimer. He's got a point disclaimer. But guys don't hear that, but they don't hear that. They don't hear it. They had to hear it. This is not serious. But they did this disclaimer. But you know, they extracted. Extracting. That's on them. You know what I'm saying? I can say I went into a saying, yo, this record is crazy. But this is what happens when we get high and when you broke. So we put a disclaimer on it. Yeah. And it was funny. Yeah, I do understand what you're saying. And I'm joking to you. Yeah, I know. I know you're being a bit of a racist. That's a great point. You're being facetious. No, what I'm saying to you, yes, some people took it and ran with it because it's something that my OG told me. That he said in this business, there's almost a certain level of minimal, minimal, minimal, minimal consequences. Yeah. So some of these actions that happened became really big to us because there's much more crimes and much more hateful and things that have been done and people didn't get punched in the face for people. They get shot for people. They didn't do this for. So that record kind of showed, wow, he could come out because all I got calls from, you know, God bless pun and Missy was a little upset and people were upset. So what you're going to do about it? How upset are you? You weren't that upset because nothing happened in 50 as a result of it. Yeah. The beef he got into with some street other stuff had nothing to do with the records. And I knew from me being Derek Angeletti in the business, what you're going to do to me? I wish a nigga would. That's how I was feeling. You know what I'm saying? Like, I wish. Well, like it was like, so my point is my point of saying is we might initiated it, but we came and said we're keeping it within the realms of fun. But that's some of the dreams from from from being, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the same type of cash. You know, because I've seen like some of the streamers that do the trolling shit from their their basement, everything talk about like, well, I learned from 50. This has always been my difference with that. Yes, 50 is a troll, but 50 is also beefed with the craziest people in New York City, his entire career and was outside and accessible. Anything 50 said he had to deal with. I agree. Like that to me, that's not like I'm joking when I said it was trolling. I get it. But ultimately, he went head to head with shit we won't even talk about on this podcast. Like, mm hmm. He said something and was there to deal with the consequences of what the fuck he was talking about. Right. And again, nothing. That's why he was the first troll. He wasn't a troll. He was outside. Outside. You told him behind the computer. You know, I agree totally. And nothing came to fisticuffs. Nothing really, you know, it did a little bit here and there, but nothing to the point where, you know, hip hop had to come and say, we need to cut this out. This is just beyond we lost. Park, we already lost. Biggie, you know, saying like, I think I think there's just a level of entertainment that I wish everybody would embrace. And I wish that the hip hop purists would understand. That you're never going to get that. No, I know I'm never going to get it. But it has to be said that they have to remove themselves from thinking that the game we are playing, that's a game, should have some keep it real rules to it. I agree. So that's the part of saying to get this. I hear you. Oh, hardly. It's just not going to happen. There's this sector of people that think that even though we don't even have an ounce of control of the game that we're playing, we sign contracts, we get in it, we do all of this stuff. And we want to create another set of rules for keep it real within this game. And when guys like us stepped out and said, we not going to be in your box with that underground backpack purist shit, we're going to try to go for the bread because that's what this business called. It's called the record making business. I'm glad you said it. The song business. So why would I go into it and not want to sell the most music I possibly can? That's idiotic and stupid. But these guys believe that we're supposed to keep it so real that I should damage my pockets to please a group of people. I'm glad you said it. That's the most dumbest. And that's why when I had these conversations, we say, you got to what's real hip hop? You know what real hip hop to me is? It's like a jungle sometimes and make me wonder. You want to stay there? So all those guys that scream real hip hop, those are the guys usually that are broke. Didn't make it. They got some issues because it didn't happen the way they still wearing the same style of clothes they wore when they were hot. Those are the guys that scream that. Yeah, those are the guys I would never sell out. You them records and these records are not. Yeah, OK. Then go do it in the train station if it really means that much to you. Don't try to get in the business. In the business. Don't try to get in the business means that much to you. Yeah, yeah. Do you like the Israeli lights? Do you like the Israelites? Do you like the Hasidic Jews or whatever? And they go out and they stand on the corner and they give the gospel. Don't make no money from it. Don't do merch. Those underground guys, I guarantee you, I bet a thousand dollars for anybody. What? When they go on the road. They don't invite everybody to their room to read books. Let's find out what the book is this week. Let's have a leadership meeting about what's happening in the black community. When I'm sitting there down in Memphis with all these with all these country chicks, no, they fucking fucking holes like they're doing drugs. They doing all that shit. So all of them guys that change their names and all this crazy shit. I've been looking at them like suck a day. I'm just posturing for whatever. If it makes no sense, call it, call it. What is it? I mean, that's real. That's real. They fucking the bitches that got sneakers on. That's for outfits, baseball hats. They fucking just like us. That's real. The niggas they sitting around trying to do what's the new book list. What were you reading this week? I was reading France for none. What were you reading? They not doing that. They make y'all think that this so far community and they so far that every day of their lives is spent trying to better the hip hop community. This is getting clear. These dudes is crazy. Five baby mothers, just like the rest of us. For shit. Listen, man, what's these niggas would? Yeah, man. I think that was that was definitely a strain. And it hit a couple of people. I hope it hits who was. But I don't know that. Yeah, just let hip hop be hip hop. It's it's vast. It's vast. It's an array. It's it's the United colors of Benetton. Exactly. It been that way. Big, big, big. What you hate when do says hip hop started when we were in the community. We were doing this. I'd like them to name five records from 1979 to 1985. That any positivity in it, except for the message. That's real. Five records. I know when that movement came. I could name when I was in two kings in the site for ten years. Later. Run them. See, I was this hip hop didn't start off with nothing but being broke and talking about it, having skills and talking about it. I never heard more need to make a positive record in my life. I never heard busy. Be get up there and say to the bit to the bottom. We need to stop shooting each other. Let's go. All right. I never heard that shit. I heard I'm getting money. Is popping. Yeah. And I'm doing my thing. Harris one was violent. Yeah. Yeah. And all these guys talk about the 80s guys. Like the 80s guys. Mm hmm. Rock Kim. When I recall, I loved, you know, the God is I love the God. The God had dollar signs on his on his chains. He won the signs. And he was a popper center. But you can't tell me he wasn't about getting money. Thinking of a master plan was with Eric B. OK. What was the name of their album? Payton Paul. This ain't number of sweat inside my head. Talk about this real hip hop. What about EPMT? Their names was Eric and Paris Bacon. But died with the word. Word. That was their name. Word. How hip hop worded. Yo. They were super hip hop, but they was trying to get paid. You got died in his bag, ladies and gentlemen. You got died in his bag. There was never a moment in hip hop when nobody was trying to get paid. Even in two kings in the cipher, we were making trying to make hit records. It wasn't all just we are neighbors. We are. It wasn't just that we had a record on the uncle. We are neighbors. It wasn't just that. So I got a big long catty. Not like to build written right on the side. To be dressed to kill. Right. So all of this hip hop was about positivity. Hip hop. No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't. We had one record that these guys made. And all of a sudden we put the whole genre in the message. One record. That he didn't even write. Why is this so I was literally before you guys came on the phone with my man, Jesse Boykins, and we were joking about the the neo soul image of shit. And I'm like, yo, these hip hop heads think slum village is this positive shit. J. Dilla starts off the first record with what's up with the three screw. Man, like clip that. I'm just saying, I'm just saying. But my problem is those are my guys. I love. And of course, they are the most positive shit I've ever like. Of course, J. Dilla. Say, yo, what's up with the three screw? Like, how do you know these come from? And that's from people sitting around creating their own thing and then running with it. Yeah. You know, I'm from Brooklyn, New York from the 70s. I was 12 years old when rappers delight came out. So I'm fully aware what it was. We're fully aware of the lyrics. I'm fully aware what it was. So by the time all these other records came out, mind you, they were records out before rappers alike. That was a commercial success. Right. There was white boys rapping in 79. They were records with white men doing hip hop and white women in 79. You can look on the list when you look on the list of records that came out 79 and 80. So by the time we get to 85, 84, you got slick, Rick, you got LL, you got run, DMC, rapping over rock records. How hip hop keep it real is this when one of the greatest acts of all time got seven records with rock beats under them? Rock beats. They went around and that. No, I'm just saying to you that just shows you the globalness of where we were going back then. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. One DMC didn't have a whole bunch of records of kumbaya. No, no, I was trying to give an arrow Smith. Right. Right. So I'm just saying MTV. They were trying to get the MTV. The goal is always get money and hip hop. From the time it started, Sylvia Robinson did not form the Sugar Hill game. To be a gospel group at the at the BME. And go on a gospel. Gospel tour. That's not what she did. That's not what this was for. And she got ghost writers for it. Right. So let's let's let's keep it 100. Right. I don't understand all this. Rap is the light. It was ghost written. Let's keep it real. Right. Let's go back to real hip hop. Now that's the shock. Yeah, which is what all goes with the entire day. Right now that she. I know. Who? Who? Let me ask you a question and I want you to keep it 100. Who got more white fans? Puffy or Wu Tang? Wu Tang. Or Wu Tang. Who's not even close. Who would you consider more hip hop? White people love hip hop. I'm asking who you would consider more hip hop? Wu Tang or Puffy? You got to think about that. Not really. Who is it? I'm curious on Rory's answer because he's we tell my white people who like hip hop. That's why I got quiet. Oh, oh, oh, you saying that? Oh, who? I've been speaking for 10 years and in partial to everything with Puff after that video, this and that. I've been one of the loudest advocates of Puff having the greatest ear next to Quincy Jones. I think I've heard you say that. I think Puff is. I just said if you ask the average hip hop. I can't think who's a hip hop. Puff and body. If you were to look up hip hop in the fucking dictionary is Puff. Like no. Not your picture. Like just say majority. Oh, no. Oh, majority. Like the nerdy white. Yeah, they would say not even nerdy white people. Purious hip hop backpacks. When you say hip hop, you don't think Jermaine the pre or Puff daddy. When you say hip hop, which is a rat music. Insane to me. Which is insane. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you. You saying to you. But there's clearly a separation. As you can see, that's been one of our biggest things. It's clear separation between real hip hop and what the rest of you guys do. That's not us making that up. That's coming. You've heard that. There's a line of demarcation. OK, so. And so there's a line where it might say Wu Tang is considered real hip hop. Puffy or the Jermaine's or the likes of a rat music. Because they make a certain type of record. And I'm saying. Hip hop has been a time, man. Hip hop is all of that is hip hop. Yeah. But there's been some type of separation. So for me, I wish somebody tell me that I need hip hop. Like, but I'm saying to you, but it's been pretty. You produce all about the Benjamins. No, but I'm saying it's been said simply because of the style of records that has been made and the way the raps go and who your audience is. So because if you target a certain audience, that ain't hip hop. Is rappers delight hip hop? Absolutely. Right. But because, you know, somebody took the baseline from good times, they'll probably say, oh, no, that ain't hip hop. So I've had this conversation with Ninth Wonder and I've had the conversation with Fonte, they have a brilliant theory of where the split you guys are talking about happened. It happened with it was written and daylight. So stakes is high and everyone just went this way. You either went underground or you went that side. I tell you, that's that's the whole day. I was wondering, you don't let me. OK, so yeah, that's that's my point. They haven't before that. I haven't been waiting for that. OK, that's where they say that the whole split happened between underground. And if you like, philosophy, it was it was a dub. No, I haven't been waiting for that. Having waited for that. It happened during my era, if I had to give an opinion on when it happened. It happened during my era when I was rapping. Mm hmm. Clear separation of positive rap. Yeah, gangsta rap. Yeah. Dayloss soul is another one of those groups. That as great as they were and as great as they are. Didn't dictate the direction of hip hop musically. The albums were great, but there's no second or third day loss. Right. There's no repeat dayloss. Right. Well, I mean, ironically, their biggest record would be considered not hip hop, which is what me myself. And why would that be considered not that that's more sell out sample sheet that goes to the rap. It's like, yeah, it goes back to the rap. It's like, you take me when I look at them, but they're considered real hip hop. But their biggest record would be considered not hip hop by the same point is for them. Nothing about them is any separation. They were the type of group that can do a to z. And it was hip hop. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. So they didn't. So so like you had a comment about what's the name of the album? Jay Z's volume one. Volume one. It sounded bad boyish. Yeah. Or their artists that sound, you know, Macy's or Lox's. Couldn't duplicate dayloss. No, show me how. How do you duplicate that with who and what? How? So they kind of boom. And what's the other group you said they said? Oh, Nas, it was written and then daylight. That was that was the split. By the time it was written was out, which was 96. OK, right. By the time that happened, we had already. Crowned Nas. But again, Nas's albums, and I'm just speaking from a guy who was in the game at the time. Warrant blueprints on how to make albums. Because he wasn't doing the Universal Daylight thing or the Universal Bad Boy thing or the Universal Dr. Dre in them thing. He tried it with if I ruled the world. Yeah. Right. That was on that one. But that was on that one. That was nice point with the fans. The fans either went to daylight, which then gets you into the slum village like that or Dilla worlds, or you go with if I ruled the world, which then you go to I am with Nas and now you back with Puff. Hate me now. Well, you're not back with Puff. You're back with what we do. We're in the music business. See what you just said? It almost seemed like Puff is the face for when you go commercial. Yeah. And I'm saying that's not the case. Puff was doing what Dr. Dre, what baby face, what Prince and Michael Jack. We're all trying to go commercial. Why all of a sudden did he become the poster boy for commerciality? But then there were other splits involved in that, too. It ain't just the Nas way or the daylight way. There was a West Coast sound. There was a down south sound. There was a there was many. But they all try to make it. That's what I'm saying. But there were many directions that didn't cause a split per se. Even then, it was just like the California love video with parking. Dr. Does that look like somebody trying to keep it real? No, that's they try to sell fucking record. Right. And I don't understand why you signed to a label and didn't want to tell everybody to keep it real and you broke his head. I only get it. So that didn't make sense to me. So I was never on that real hip hop. I don't even use that term real hip hop. I don't even know what that means. It's all hip hop. It's all birth from the same original birthplace. And it's going to have his branches. Older cats ain't going to like certain things. Younger cats ain't going to like certain things. And that should be more than OK. That should be more than OK. You know what I'm saying? But it's not for some people. They and then, like I said, you got these kids that are maybe in their 20s now and would actually say something about Jay-Z is ridiculous to me. It'd be like, you know, the bra, which he never did. LeBron can never speak on Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dr. J Bird, man. He can't ever say anything out his mouth. He wasn't there and they've earned their space in time. And if the generation after us would understand that there is no comparison with we didn't try to do that. We just tried to take what Kane and Rock Kim and K. RS and LL and slick and G rap was doing and make it better. That's it. So these kids evolve or evolve. Let's not say better. You want to say dead, kill y'all, like cut it off. Y'all mean nothing. How the foundation you standing on is what we built. So that's the mentality that that throws me off a little bit about these critiques and about this thing. It's not just a critique. It's almost like go away, die. You meant nothing to this game. We are new. We are the new. And this is how I was going to go. Yeah, it's hard. It's a hard pill of swallow sometime. You know what I'm saying? But I feel as well. We are now. 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I've I've I've went through a lot of beard products that typically just dry out my very, very sensitive skin, but I've been on my basking lather and finally found something that actually works with my skin. I've been basking in the lather every single time. You join it. The shampoo, the conditioner and they have the oil that softens my beard. And you know, summer's coming. You want a woman to run her fingers through your beard? You got to have a soft beard. It has to be softener is is needed. Very important. This this this ginger hair sometimes gets a little rough, but it's not the best to skin under the beard to do. Yes, need to be conditioned and you know, and I know there's a lot of people out there with some patches. I'll just say some people's beers don't connect. The Marist hates those types of guys. They have a oil as well that just makes your beard fuller. OK, like sometimes I have to grow my beard out because there's like a little there's a little patchiness right here. 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You you you you you you you the first person or maybe the second that I've been turned into mentor me a mentor. Yeah, he said that out of his mouth before, though. He has. Yeah, that you were his mentor. OK. Well, I mean, he did that bullshit. We said that he goes produce for you or whatever the fuck that was. We had a lot of you do serve you credit. That's another one of those terms. Yeah, that got made up. But the Kanye that I see now is is a different Kanye. And what I mean by that is he still he was genius when I met him in the making. So that's I didn't do that. I didn't mold that guy. Um, the the the irony is when I met him, he was living in Chicago. We had his mother, his girlfriend's name was Alexis. My daughter's name was Alexis. His mother was a teacher. My mother was a teacher and a principal. We had so much in common. He's a Gemini. My wife is I married to a Gemini. My daughter's Gemini. So when I met him, he was hungry. He wanted to rap. He had to go get us. He was pushing him and his boy, the tall one. I forgot his name. He was really tight. He had John Monopoly in the mix, but John Monopoly was kind of more like a road manager, because free and I were actually managing him. Yeah. Um, he produced for Trace, so Trace was around him. He did two, three songs on Trace's life. I mean, I'm not from the two. Five that never got released. And he was hungry. He moved, you know, the story just real quick. He didn't move to Jersey for Rockefeller. If you watch that, he moved because he wanted to be closer to me because I was showing him how to make records, real records. Yeah. And he said his dream was to be a hitman. And he I didn't manage him because I found him. I managed him because he asked free to find me. I never knew that because his sound was the. My sound was the closest to his out of everybody. If you compare our songs, I agree. So he requested to meet me. And when I met him, I said, oh, shit. It was to a little bit degree, not a lot, but here. D.Dot Midwest. But this dude's ear for that, you know, them other soul sounds was just yikes. Yeah. Yeah. You heard that in that. Oh, I need him here. Talk to his mother, got him to Jersey. Shopped him around. Did things. So I wasn't traumatized. I was more I was said to because when they say that Kanye is a no ID, baby. And I love Dion is to me one of the one of the dope. I've always I always felt like he was trying to sound like you. I mean, no, to me, to me, it's always sound like I did. How did you raise, you know, I, you know, Kanye looked up to no ID. But at the time that I got Kanye came around. Blueprint Kanye is more no ID, but the early Kanye was not. I'm just so sample chop. Shit the way I'm saying he talked about no ID off. Me sure. And I know story. That I'm saying as far as his production before you get to the blueprint. Right. Era was not the soul. Not. Sample chop. Shit that no idea. Right. It was your shit. But it was and he was he was still learning because remember, he's coming from New York. Nice. I mean, he's coming from Chicago. Now he's living in New York, New Jersey. So now he gets to here on a more consistent basis, a different radio sound, terrestrial radio at the time. You know what I'm saying? And then new different rap styles. He's in the studio with Tray Trays from Philly. So nice to see what Tray and the Raps is. It's not the same as you're not hearing these catering. These twangs is different. His lingo was different than my lingo. And we but I want to have away from each other and slangs and and flows and textures. So I was showing them all of that. He did a video where it said he went to the studio with Jay and he didn't know how to coach Jay because that's not being a producer then. So I taught him how to say, yo, Tray, the fuck, man. What is that? Say the word like Tray, I'll tell you, we'd have those conversations producing. So I taught him how to be a producer. Outside of track making. Yeah. Well, it beat makers versus producers, not verses added on to the arsenal. Be able to produce the song and not just do the beat. And you think you hear the finished product, but you can't. You don't know how to get. I recall there was one record that we did catch 22 catch 22. Chuckie co produced that record with Kanye. And Chuckie and Dot were in the studio. I think this is the beginnings of him being a producer. I'd never forget it. We went to Daddy's house actually makes in the record. He wasn't there first. So him and Chuckie, Dot and Chuckie came, you know, did some things or whatever. And he comes in there later, like, wait a minute. What are you all doing? I don't know if you remember this. He was like, wait a minute, what are you all doing? And there were certain things that Dot and Chuckie were toying with. But kind of, you know, didn't elongated, if you will. And didn't he was like, no, you got to have that part right here. And he was doing an arrangement right before my eyes. And I had never seen Kanye like that in Crazy Cat, right? In the beginning stages of it. So I think because of what you're talking about, you know, I think he picked up on a lot of the things that I was talking. He came in there and I actually see him in real time, take control and produce like a candy store. I got another bass line. I got some more. Oh, shit. I got more drums. Oh, God. Yeah. So of course you don't want to know. It's all works. It's all goes. Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that. What what inspired y'all to start Law and Disorder? Like, what was the first conversation between the two of y'all? Like, I think we want to start on this album. Was it B1? No, over the last couple of years, I've been just trying to make records with the track, put them on freestyle, stuff like that. So I was working on a song called Appreciate. I'm called Appreciate the Hate back in 2019, 2018, 2019. We did a freestyle. So I told him I wanted him on this song. He came and which ended up being B1. Never shot a video to it because at the time, you know, I had my teeth was all messed up, so I got some new gypsies in my mouth. So back then I wasn't really in front of the camera. You weren't sexy enough for it. You know, I mean, so. So somewhere along the line, I think I was trying to send him some beats for something and whatever, whatever. And we were just trying to we were always over the years, have conversations about our place in hip hop. And then recently there was a time when I'm noticing that our generation. Is not being as critiqued as much, not being as told you can't do it. And then albums are coming out from people older than us, our age and younger than us. That's within that five, seven year span. I'm like, wow, this is this is good. And I said, you know, and I'm doing black rob. So I dropped black rob. So I'm like, you know, trade. So we need to work or something. Trace said, well, you know, in this time that we got to we should shoot a video to be warned that we made years ago. Be one to seven years old now. People didn't know that we know it now. But so we shot a video to it. And the response was as if we made the record the week before. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that triggered the EP. OK, let's turn it off. Four songs. Let's do three or four songs. We got to those songs and I was like, this is going to come and go in a day. And I just feel like making more records. So. Trader's like, let's go now. And then let's keep it a hundred. Though. Yeah. You had a chip on your shoulder. Yeah. A little bit. I got a chip on my shoulder. Yeah. A little bit. Because I don't think, you know, going back to all the story we just had with Dotton and his history and who's work with and blah, blah, blah. I don't think he gets the proper credit in my in my mind for being one of the top producers of all time. You see, I'm saying you agree. And I don't think people properly heard me as a lyricist. I was I was hoping you about you. You know what I'm saying? Because of the magnitude of the first record that you ever heard from me, which is the theme is Party Time, which is a monster record. And this is the reason why I still get phone calls. But I don't think that people heard the dynamics of the lyricism that I think that I put my blood. He always teases me, teases me about it, because everything that I write has a purpose and is intricate and is all kind of shit. It's layers and layers that a lot of the audience just got, you know, a party time on their mind. And they just think that that's all the trailer is. So that was also a part of the motivation to creating. And I know you were totally big on versus. I was just about to say on the 30th combo about big. And because you have to ask yourself, why and got them? Why would big do a record with trade? So there's a part of us that says we still need you to know why one of the greatest that you think is the greatest did a record with this guy and didn't do a record with you. Because most of the questions are coming from people that are envious of the fact that trade even got to do a record with big and they didn't. That's yeah, that's real rap. Yeah, I was going to let y'all say it. I didn't want to say it. But I also think too, like, you know, hip hop being the youngest genre, which Tom about off mic, like we're finally seeing how it can age. Because a lot of times when we saw what would be quote unquote older rappers, it looked like he was the old guy in the club. But now we're starting to see Nas doing six projects with hip boy. It doesn't sound you don't sound like you're trying to be young. Right. And there's there's also a whole audience. I'm 36. There's my cousin is 47. He wants to listen to the rap he grew up on. And he wants them to keep making music. That's a whole another day. He not even trying to. Right. Listen to what's out now. He wants to hear Nas rap again. Right. Like to me, it's it's important to show that hip hop can age gracefully where it used to be no country for old men. And I don't think that's the case anymore. Well, I don't think it's the case anymore either, but I don't think that the youth haven't body that sentiment yet. I think that our generation has decided that there's nothing else. It's almost like by default. They got we got to a age where some of this young shit I try, but I just can't get to it. So now the Drake's to J Cole's and above the little ways and all of them. If that's what I have as a 58 60 year old. Then I might have to leave that to the kids. So then what's left for me? Because I can't like I love Drake and I love little Wayne and I love Cole and Kendrick and all these. But I might not be able to relate all the way. Yeah. To what their time is. And you keep it in the keep it a box. Say day 40. Well, yeah. So you know, I'm saying. But but that's the other thing. They older than me. But 18, 20, 15 years is a huge difference for the way we've been programmed. Yes. In hip hop. So 58 years old and 57s and 55s and all that. When that opportunity came, I think it was more by almost by the four because our generation is like, wow, I turn on Terrestrial Radio. I'm not going to hear you guys. So rock the bells grew out of that. Yeah. All these old school stations grew out of the necessary need to feed a machine of people that said, if it ain't now, they met the man with new albums. I might like a Drake song. I might like this. I might like I even might like a Chris Brown song, but I'm going to lean more towards usher. But I might get a new. Because my wife, my wife likes Chris Brown. She, you know, usher comes out. She going to the concert. Chris Brown goes out, comes out. She might go to the concert, but it ain't all it ain't all hands on deck. You should understand, too. So I'm saying that I think we found a way to feed out generation properly. Yeah. And if we can deliver music like I think we deliver it on law and disorder, where it's it's we're not reaching. We got songs like like this that's reminiscent of old, but it feels new to me. Need a lawyer like shit that. Yeah, right. Right. Right. Right. So so. He has to serve. Just to be fine. And then also, like I said, his story of of growth, going from rapper to going to law school, passing the bar, actually being a working and attorney and then still being having the skill set to keep up with whoever you think is hot and the record making skills that whereas we got guys from our generation that haven't gone on a law school that haven't become firemen and teachers and they still doing it and the record making skills haven't shown any growth. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. And the most. Lord, the daughter is growth. The most positive thing I've seen from. The disgusting part of of hip hop media and comments was actually when Andre 3000 did his flute album and he did an interview and he said, I don't want to rap. What am I rap about getting Colin Aspey and everyone in the comments said, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, we're all at this age. No, no, that's exactly that's exactly what I want to hear you rap about. Right. But that's like because we're growing with you as well. Like. But again, from his perspective, 444 was the best thing Hove ever did to pivot to the people that grow up with them to be a doler. Yeah. Right. And I'm saying to not every artist wants to put their lives on wax for their audience. So if it's not for entertainment purposes only, then why am I doing it? So, for example, tell me something you really know about Buster Roms from a personal standpoint from his records. He's the greatest dapper of all time. So I'm saying. If you if you if you need your back cracked, he will dapp you and break your. That's clear. To put you in a chokehold when he sees you. That's absolutely. But he's decided he's not going to spell out his life for wax. See, so his record making is going to be for entertainment purposes only. You know, but the introspective records. Oh, no. See, I'm going to give you. I'm going to give you I'm going to give you a pushback in page. If we have to mark this because we can't hear it best I can. We're absolutely. With that album, so that that this is all this is all about dealing with with custody that was that album is the album's though. That album is the exception. I'm not now. A body of work as a body of work. That's not what you heard. So some people may say some. It's really good. So some people may say at this age, yeah, I should be rapping about this. But I'm almost 58, about 58. And on this album, you ain't going to hear nothing about me having arthritis in my neck and my back. You ain't going to hear nothing about the problems I'm going through with my daughters, raising daughters and all this other stuff, unless I'm doing it in such a way that can entertain you. And that's what I'm saying. So at the end of the day, record making still comes down to how do I entertain you enough for this story for you to like and love this story? And we brought up 444. I think Nas Life is Good is the better example of that entire thing. I love that album. 444 was just raw emotion. Life is good. Life is good. It's the same content with records that you could go to the gym. That's what my favorite Nas is out. Do that. Right. That's what's on the bus side. Buster to me is almost he's almost Chris Brown like where you're a legend. You have hit records. You have all this. You've never given us a quintessential like I don't. What's the Busta album? I mean, that's that's a whole other subject. I just meant content wise. There's some artists that yes, you're growing with them, but you're not growing with them in their in their in a certain in a in a sanctions of their lives. They're not taking you to every part of what they're going through in life. So I'm saying to you, some artists do that. Jay, we know Jay's mother. We know he's the child's brother. We know he sold drugs. So we got stories that we can tell. We know what happened with him and the guys that got locked up. We know what happened when they came home. How we put them on. We know the guys he sold drugs with. You got an artist like Busta, who's one of the greatest artists we ever have, you don't have a lot of those records from him because he didn't want to put that out there. So at 55, 55 of all he is, you probably won't. You shouldn't expect all of a sudden for this turn to happen. And all of a sudden you're going to learn all about Mr. Busta Vines in one song. And both of what you're talking about, there still is a it still has to be in order for you to be considered dope, in my opinion, you still have to have a creative aspect to it. Like whether you talking about your life story or you just talking about, you know, I'm saying how nice you are on the mic. You know, I mean, and that's what law and disorder is to me. It's beats and rhymes. It's essentially we we give you a peek into in a little tidbit of this, that and the third. But it goes down to the beats and rhymes and how creative the flows are and what pockets we're in the production and what pockets we're choosing to get in and out of that production. I think especially at this stage in the game, in order for us to be palatable, to not only our age group, but even those that are just being introduced to us for the first time, if it's not appealing to the ear, no matter what the subject matter is, and that's where the creativity comes into play. Like, how can you say certain things? You may we may give you bragging docio throughout the whole album. But but but by how did they say it? Like, how did it come off? You know, I'm saying. And that to me is the essence of what we call hip hop. You know, I'm saying. And I think low and disorder is exactly that. It's at my age, I don't feel like I have nothing to prove. I have a chip, but the chip I don't wake up every day. Right. Like, and it's weighing me down. It's just like any other person you have to ask yourself, you know. Did I do enough? You know, I'm saying, like, you know, I'm a I'm a achievement oriented person. When I sit out to do something, I don't have to be number one at it, but I got to get it done. You know what I mean? I'm a get it done person. So this album was to show the world that I'm at a space in my life and he's at space in his life where this is semi easy for us. And we're just going to have some fun. But we're not trying to take it back to 88. Right. Right. Except the record straight type of thing. We're going to we I feel like we grew as lyricists, emcees, flows. And you can hear it. Yeah. And as a producer, some of these albums I hear that some of the ones you named. And someone was we didn't name. I don't hear growth. I hear moment in time for them. And it's a good opportunity to drop an album, but I don't hear growth. I don't hear a space that now I can see the maturation because of how you set me up. Yeah, as opposed to I'm going to take you back to 88. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And all disorder is not a take back. It's a it's a wow. This reminds me of. But it's now. I was watching a Chris Rock interview when tribe thank you for your service came out and he was describing why that album was good. And he said it's the first time I've heard older rappers not rap about what they used to do. Right. You you become the yesteryear like, yo, you remember we were legends and we did all that. And to your point, let me say this because I don't think this gets across enough. You know, I'm saying from the time that I did it and I'm not just saying it because it's me. How many lawyers that used to be chart topping artists are there out there? Well, there's no one. There's a reason why that go against the system. Right. But you have an artist that's also a lawyer. You know what I'm saying? They're both there. And that's the reason why universal would like that. No, no, no, no. But it's like, that's why I didn't mention it in every song, because I don't think you understand the magnitude of what this shit is. Like this is some real shit. Like, like what? You know what I'm saying? But but yeah, that's that law and disorder. Of course, if you can put it together, I'm the law and that's the. And you know, it's it's it's a culmination of people know me as the mad rapper. They know beats, but it's also just saying. And these times are producer rapper. What I haven't heard, except maybe a little bit with Dre and Snoop. Because any of these guys having fun, right? Like you named albums. Great. Those sessions don't sound fun. I mean, it's just sound intense, dark, the weed is black. Like it just sounds like the liquor is dark brown. And nothing sounds like they was having fun. It also sounds so serious. Like they got all this other shit going on. I'm in the studio. I got slippers on. Incense. We watching porn. Oh my God. I got weed in the air. I'm not. We doing all of that. I'm not doing that. I got a little bit of wine. Yeah, he got wine. I got whatever I got. Everybody. But we having fun. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like it's like imagining being in a Rihanna session during them times. Like how fun was those sessions? That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm trying. That's where we at. Yeah. I'm sending songs and I'm giggling when I say to your dog, you're going to enjoy this one so much. You know what I'm saying? Not like, yo, fam, we got to kill this. You know what I'm saying? You got to do that. We got the court thing next on top of you. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We passed that. So that's law and disorder. And I'm always going to be a habitual line-step anyway. You know what I'm saying? So that's the disorder part of the disorder. You know what I mean? Well, I really appreciate you guys pulling up. Law and disorder is out now. And just for my own selfish reasons, I want to tell you guys, this makes podcasting not a job to me. It's sitting with guys like you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. So I was like, like, like, little Rory, like when he was fucking 10 years old, couldn't imagine sitting on a couch with guys like you. So this this is something that that's not real suburban. I don't know. Little Rory would like to meet you guys. That's just I know you're not. He was smoking black amounts. Give me a couple of people real quick. Oh, absolutely. Before you finish, OJ's. Yes. Riz Deluxe. Yes. Sherry John. Sherry John. Yeah. God bless Black Rob. Yep. DJ Blinks. Yep. Down there, Blinks Basement. Mm-hmm. And everybody else who participated, man. We just. Oh, my cousin, Eric. Because Eric on the artwork. Yeah. Sherry John out of Brooklyn. She sang on the album. Yeah. He did a beautiful job. So all those people, I just. You say OJ's, right? Yeah, OJ's, yeah. Riz's just everybody good looking. Because, you know, platforms, they watch your platform. Yes. You know what I'm saying? So I want to make sure that they know we recognize their efforts in helping us pull this thing off. And we appreciate you having us. Yeah, we appreciate you having us. Dude, do we get a live show? What's that mean? Yeah. What? What's the show? When? What y'all, I'm saying, do we get a live show? Y'all going to tour? Anything? Oh, you mean? You mean, are we doing? Yeah, yeah, we got some. I'll send you all of that. We got to just. Yeah, yeah, awesome. Along. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was confused. I was like, you want us to get up here? No. Oh. No, I didn't. No, I didn't tell me that. You didn't say it. Do we get a live show? Yeah. You're that for a burglash. No. I'll tour in the album. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, awesome. We doing DC next week. We got Brooklyn, Brooklyn, June 6th. All right, that'll be there. Or the Black Party. Yeah, yeah. Come through, please. No, absolutely. Yeah, we doing that. A, lit in AC. Yep. For Charlie Mack and them joint. That's the 20th. Yep. That's the 20th. Yeah, I'll top my head. You know, we did have the other person here that would have it. Oh, don't forget 1987. Yeah, I don't know all that. No, that's the other part. Where we keep it real. I love playing artists right now. Usually I'm on the other side. This shit is so fun to me. Just let everyone know. I get to just show up, smoke, and do me on the camera. I don't have to order new cars. Worry about where he at, where she at. Somebody else. That shit is love grown grown with grown men. That shit is like, yeah, like this. So this whole law and disorder is just fun. Yeah, just that we just have fun. So make sure y'all go cop that man. This way out now. The platforms out now. Make sure y'all go listen to it. Please begging. Appreciate y'all. I love. No worry at all. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.