Julia Gets Wise with Catherine O’Hara

Hey, it's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser Than Me. To celebrate your Out of This World support for our show, we've been brewing up something special, a Wiser Than Me Mirror Traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to wiserthanmeshop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show. So in my career, I've done mostly comedy and my fondest memories are working with other actors to perfect a bit, to like mine a moment for the most comedy possible. Honestly, I don't think about kudos or awards or reviews or paychecks or anything like that. And it's actually, it's not even the laughs. It's rehearsing to get the laughs. There's a scene in a Veep episode, for example, when I'm telling Tony Hale, who plays Gary, that the president is resigning. So my character, Selena Meyer, the Veep, is going to become president. And we're in a bathroom, a dingy bathroom, and in the scene, we're kind of laughing and crying and then he gets a bloody nose. And oh my God, we worked on that scene forever. It was exhausting, but over and over and over, looking for like little things we could bring to the scene, you know, like things that I sort of, in fact, pull out of a bag. Within the scene, I'm pulling stuff out of a bag. And when I watch it now, that's what I remember, the work, the joyful teamwork that Tony and I did in rehearsal and while shooting, you know, not the laughs per se, but when you don't get the laughs, oh my goodness, you certainly do remember that. When I was just getting started, I was part of the practical theater company in Chicago. And our show, which was called the Practical Theater Company's Golden 50th Anniversary Jubilee, which was a joke, of course, because the company was new, hadn't been around very long. It was a giant hit. And I'd never been in a giant hit before and it was incredibly exciting. We were the toasts of the town. The show was selling out and the laughs we were getting were incredible. It was the culmination of a huge amount of work and joy, exactly what I was just talking about. So, the producers of SNL came to see the show and they loved it and they hired all of us to come to New York and be a part of SNL Saturday Night Live. Of course, we go to New York and the SNL producers really wanted the current cast and writers to see what they had seen in Chicago. So they rented this very cool off-Broadway house and they brought in a big enthusiastic audience and they had us recreate the whole hit show. Oh, wait a minute. Sorry. No. Not at all. Uh-uh. They had us, four complete and total unknowns, perform the first act of the show in the SNL office under fluorescent lights in the middle of the day in front of 20 very cynical, unfriendly SNL cast members and writers who already hated us because a bunch of their best friends had just been fired to make room for us. Okay? We never had a chance. Sketches that had killed in Chicago died a terrible, terrible death that day. It was excruciating. And that's when I learned what a flop sweat really is. I mean, I can feel it now as I'm recounting this. And I think that humiliation influenced our whole SNL experience for the next couple of years to tell you the truth. I mean, if I could do it all over again, well, I can't do it all over again, can I? I mean, you live, you learn and whatever. I've learned a lot since that cringy day in a carpeted office on the 17th floor of 30 Rock. But one of the most enduring lessons that I have learned unwhyser than me is that there are so many ways to move forward confidently and positively, even in the face of great challenges. And it reminds me of one of my favorite improv lessons, Yes and. That is the great Viola Spohlen's first rule of improv. You always say Yes and in an improv. So like, for example, if somebody comes into a scene and says, hi, I'm an astronaut, you don't say, no, you're not an astronaut. You say, yes, and I'm so looking forward to hearing your astronaut poetry tonight or whatever. Yes and. That is so applicable to life off the stage as well as on it. Really honestly, all of life is really a great big improv in the end, relationships and work situations. I mean, it's all about collaborating and paying attention and accepting what others bring to the party and building on that and of course making big choices. It's just a great thing. And paradoxically, another great thing I've learned from the women on this show is that no is a complete sentence. Yeah, weird how that too is in the end a positive, empowering kind of truth. Two sides of a wiser than me coin. And I have to say, speaking of wiser than me, I really, really want you to know how happy I am to have you nice audience people listening to and enjoying these conversations, saying Yes and to our show. I'm so grateful. I really am. So thank you, dear listeners and Yes and right back at you for real. How apropos then that today we are talking to the inestimable improv queen, Catherine O'Hara. I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus and this is wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. There's nothing like improvisation. I love it. In my experience, the best improvisers are pretty much always the best listeners. That's the key to any great performance, comedy or drama, listening. Our guest today is one of the finest listeners in the business and to me, that means one of the finest actors. Catherine O'Hara and I share similar origin stories. She started on stage at Second City Toronto. I started on stage at Second City Chicago, although it was a touring company. She went on to Second City TV. I went on to SNL. She's been with her husband 36 years. I've been married 37 and we both have two perfect boys. We've known each other for decades through mutual friends, but we've never actually gotten to work together. God damn it. And I vowed to change that. Catherine's TV career took off alongside fellow SCTV comedy legends, John Candy, Eugene Levy, Joe Flaherty, Andrea Martin, Dave Thomas and Harold Ramis. This was pretty much the exact same time that SNL was exploding here in the States. SCTV, frankly, was always sort of the cool Canadian stepsister to Saturday Night Live. It was weirder. It was deeper, hipper for sure, more daring. And for me, the heart of the show was always Catherine O'Hara. She's not just funny, she's fearless. And that's an absolute joy to watch. She followed up SCTV, working on tons of TV shows, often with her SCTV pals, and even dabbled in fancy director land with Marty Scorsese and After Hours. And then came home alone and just like that, she was the blockbuster mom, which I rewatched last night, by the way. It holds up completely. And then Christopher Guest started to make his improvised movies, starting with Waiting for Guffman and Best in Show. And she's basically stolen every scene in every one of them. And I haven't even mentioned her Emmy Award-winning turn on Schitt's Creek. And I'm not going to go through every credit and every award, because holy crap, Catherine O'Hara likes to work. But you get the idea she's unbelievably funny. Truth is, if you're watching something and Catherine O'Hara comes onto the screen, you just know that every time she's going to score, every time. Fellow SCTV alum Marty Short said of Catherine, she is one of the most loyal, wise human beings I've ever known, which of course makes her perfect for our little podcast here. I couldn't be more excited to welcome to the show an actor, mother, comedy legend, and woman who is truly wiser than me, the exquisite Catherine O'Hara. Hi, Catherine. Oh my Lord, Julia. That's too much. Thank you. Too much. Oh, it's not too much. It's over now, right? That's it. Yeah, it's over. That's the end of the podcast, Catherine. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining. I love to hear all those nice things. Yeah. Well, goodbye. Yeah. They're true. So are you comfortable if I ask your real age? If you tell yours? Yeah, I will. I'm 70. I'm 63. Oh, you baby. I know. I'm just a wee thing. You are a dear little thing. And how old do you feel? Really? How old do you feel? I don't know. Well, I feel what I am. I don't know. Who knows what anything's supposed to feel like. Yeah, I know. But when you hit 70, which is a big marker, did you think like, wow, this isn't what I thought 70 feels like. The only reason I said that is because that was true for me when I hit the markers. Even starting with 30, I was remembering like, 30, it sounded so adult. And I was like, oh, I don't feel like that. You know? Well, that's what I'm saying. You never really feel like you've been told you're supposed to feel or the way you imagine others feel. Yeah, right. Uh, I feel, I don't want to say young, but I don't feel old. Oh, that's a good answer. That, yeah, I feel the same. I feel the same. Yeah. Why? I just feel like I'm, well, I'm lucky to be alive. For sure. Yeah. And I don't know. I don't know what it's supposed to feel like. What do you think is the best part about being your age, though? Is there a best part? Oh boy. Being alive. And I don't think of my age, uh, except sometimes I'll be around a bunch of younger people, you know, working, sometimes you work. Yeah, tell me that. My case you work and you're often the oldest person, uh, on set. Yeah. And I don't even think of the age, but if I did, I would say, oh, we're all the same age, even though we're not. Yeah. But we're all human beings relating. We're all, you know, on a set. We're all working on a show. We're all, you know, serving the story and having fun and, you know, working together. Then I go in, sometimes I think, wow, at best, maybe the look at me is like some adorable old lady. I'm saying at best. No, I know at best. But it's funny that you say that because as you were saying, I'm thinking, well, yeah, it makes sense because particularly in our business, you're on set with other actors, you're playing, it's playful, God willing. Yeah. It's a playful environment, right? Yeah. And so that sort of age, uh, drops off in that environment. Yes. But I've had the same experience of being on set and thinking, wow, what the fuck? Like I just did this, uh, Marvel movie and well, first of all, I don't know any of the references anybody's making, uh, to the Marvel universe, number one, but also like culturally and everybody is my, my children's age, like almost everyone on set. Wow. Yeah. That is funky town. This doesn't have to do with anything at all, but we both, both have, it doesn't. It's not really even appropriate for this podcast, but who cares? We both have Pope stories because I heard you've gotten trouble. Yes. I heard you that you got in trouble at the Vatican and you got yelled at by a priest. Can you talk about that? What happened? What did you do? Et cetera. What happened? This is so, it's so stupid to even tell it, but I will anyway. Uh, I met my husband. Well, she was a production designer on the first Beal Juice movie. Yes. And Tim Burton basically made him ask me out and because I was grousing to Tim that this guy was talking to me every day and never asked me out. And so Tim said, let me see what I could do. He did talk to him and both begrudgingly asked me out and now we're still married. Thank goodness. Uh, but Tim also gave us an amazing wedding gift, which was a private tour at the Vatican. Oh, it was a wedding gift. Yeah. Tim Burton would give a present like that. That's amazing. Somebody had given him the gift and he'd been blown away. So he passed it on, which is really wonderful and generous. So this lovely priest, a cardinal took us all around the Vatican and he was wild. He took us everywhere, including, I swear, the Pope's closet. He took us on the elevator that the Pope takes down to the St. Peter's Basilica to his day mass. He took us in this beautiful little museum, private museum full of, in glass cases, all the gifts given to the Vatican from all over the world. Crowns and jeweled, I don't know, whatever. And he'd let us open the case and take out crowns and pretend to be putting them in my husband's backpack and we're laughing. But when we were, where we thought it was the Pope's closet, then another priest came by. It's our guide that got yelled at, not us actually, although we were part of it for sure because we're all in there laughing. Got it. Yeah. Not a big closet. It was a small closet. Well, it's just probably the same thing over and over again, isn't it? Yeah, it's not that much variety, is there? What happens is the clothes he used to wear. What's your Pope's story? Yeah. My Pope's story is that, I get an email from Stephen Colbert that says, the Pope wants to meet a bunch of people in comedy. Are you available to go? So the first thing I do is I text Stephen because I think maybe this is like, he's been hacked or something for real. And he said, no, no, that's real. He didn't ask for money though. No, he didn't ask for money, but that could have been in the second email. So I was being careful. Anyway, it's true. Long story short, a bunch of us end up at the Vatican meeting with the Pope who wanted to make a speech about the importance of laughter and comedy and the spirituality of that, which is very, very, very nice. I was totally flabbergasted at the pomp of it. And I mean, it feels very, and I don't mean this as disrespectfully as it might sound, but it feels very wizard of Ozzy. You know what I mean? Well, you know, with the guys and they've got their costumes that these, what do they call the Swiss guard come walking in with the stripes and the feathers on top of their head. Yeah. And you expect them to sing, oh, yo, yo, you know, you know, if you're grating on a Pope curve, this Pope is a good guy. Yeah, yeah, he is beautiful. But I highlight grating on a Pope curve. I knew that event happened and I was very jealous. You should have been there as silly that you weren't. Yeah, come on, I'm Catholic. I know. Did you get to speak with him? I shook his hand. Yeah. Wait. Oh, shit. Where did I put that fucking picture? Anyway, whatever. I shook his hand and I said, God bless you. And he said, God bless you too. That's great. So that was nice. And then, but the real kicker was David Cideris was there. Do you know David Cideris? Yeah. Okay. I don't know him personally, but of course I know him, yeah. Okay. So we're talking afterwards and David says that he's going to go to the Pope store. It's that store in Rome that sells all the Pope clothing. And actually I was going to go there too because you can get like good red Pope socks and stuff. And I said, okay, I'm going to go with you. And we ended up going to that store together and he bought all of these robes, all of these like priestly robes with the red sashes and all the rest of it. No. Because, you know, well he likes to dress in costume a lot and he said he thought he would wear this to do his work. I'm amazed that that is available. Yeah, I'm amazed too. I didn't know that. Yeah. Is that, what's that called? Appropriation? Yes. He wrote about it in the New Yorker and I'll send you the story because he wrote a whole story about going to the Pope. It's very good. Excellent. But there's a joke at the top of it that I totally credit him with. It's not my joke, but it's incredible and it goes like this. Two priests were driving a car together down a highway and they get pulled over by a cop. And the cop comes up to the window, says, roll down your window and he says, we're looking for two child molesters and the priests look at each other and they look back at him and they go, we'll do it. No, no. I'm sorry. I know. It's terrible. I know. Bless myself. I know. Bless yourself. I'm sorry. I'm telling you this. I'll bless you. Wonder good Catholic girl. Apologies. No, don't apologize. That's a good joke. It's a good joke. Yes. Speaking of Catholicism, I read your first role was playing the Virgin Mary in a Nativity Place. That's really sad. No, it's a starring part. No, it was in the thing at the park, up the street from her house. Yeah. Well, we have to all start somewhere. What were they going to do? Put you on stage, on Broadway at however old you were. That's great. I mean, how did you remember it? Well, I remember because my mom would bring it up every once in a while, was that I lost her lovely blue house coat. Oh, your mom let you give it to the costume department and you lost it. Baby blue. Yeah. I'll say, isn't that a cute, hilarious story? It's hilarious. It's so sad. But you know what? This reminds me of what was I watching that you were doing? Oh, it was waiting for Guffman. And you and Fred were doing a scene and you did something so brilliant where you were mouthing his lines. Do you remember that? And it reminded me of watching kids in a school play. Oh, yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah. Because there's always somebody who knows the entire thing backwards and forwards. And in fact, I remember once we went to some play at school in my son Henry's class, I think, and one kid on stage when he didn't have a line, he would turn and start to talk to his friends who are watching in the audience. No. Yeah. He had no sense of keeping the thing going. If he didn't have a line, he didn't need to worry about the show. Wow. Isn't that incredible? Wow. Yeah, it was. You've worked with people like that, haven't you? I actually have. I know. If they're not talking, there's nothing going on. Right. It's just being completely. Talk about not listening. I love that. That's really good. Yeah, it's funny. Much more with Catherine O'Hara after this quick little break. Don't go anywhere. Visit mydea.com to see how you can bring home a little wow today. When there's a job to be done, the wisest choice you can make is finding the right people with the right skills to make it happen. If you're hiring, indeed is all you need. 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She was consistent, consistent like she was just herself on stage, even though she took a ton of characters and totally herself. I'm not explaining it right. What are you doing? Are you asking chat GBT? Where? No. For help? No, because you looked away like you're going on to a computer to look up something nice to say about Gilda Radner. That'd be great. Nice thoughts on Gilda. Oh, wait. I have these memorized. I thought, what happened? No, and then when I got in Second City, I got in because she left. I was understudied to her and Rose May Radcliffe, the other woman in the cast at the time. Gilda went on to do National Lampoon, which led to her during Saturday Night Live. No, so I only knew her for that period, but I really could honestly say I wouldn't know anything about acting or improper comedy, I don't think. Without watching her. Or have all the opportunities. No, without knowing her at all. I just really imitated her when I understudied her. All I'd do was try to imitate her before I could develop my own characters. I got out of high school. I shouldn't even admit this. I didn't go to college unless you call Second City University of Comedy. Why can't you? Well, I'm going to forever. To my kids anyway. No, I got out of high school and she was in our lives and then she went and did Second City and I followed her there and got to understudy her. I wouldn't have known about any of it. This is pre-internet and I'm so glad I got to have this experience pre-internet. And to be that blindly optimistic about thinking, hey, why not? Just try this. There's no one else in the world except these few people in Toronto who are trying to do this. So why can't I try it too? That's kind of incredible. So you didn't have any feeling of, well, I mean, of course if you're trying something, it could fail miserably, but you have to be willing to take that risk. And then you, and if it does, then you do it again and you try something else and hopefully it doesn't fail. Right? But how great, but how great to be able to fail. Yeah, you have to be able to fail. To not have strangers watching and commenting. Oh, yes. That's the internet. I feel bad. I feel bad for people starting out now because it just takes away your ability to take risks. You don't try things. Yes. Your sense of confidence, your sense of abandon. Yeah. And to have, and when you're starting out to have to lock into something so quickly instead of trying, you know, a thousand different things, why not? Why not? Either you can't. You can't have that same experimentation if you're sending it out to the world. So you felt that experimentation doing Second City. You felt that abandon there for sure, right? Oh, I don't, I didn't even think about it. That was the way it was. That's, that's, isn't that the way it was when you got in? But I was in the tour, well, wait a minute, let me be clear. I was in the touring company, so we were only doing other people's material. Right, right. It was obviously very male-centric, but everything is, it seems. Yeah. And we can get into that. But there were, it was not a particularly, my group was not a particularly happy group of people. And there were a lot of drugs and there was a lot of drinking. Wow. And what year was that when you got in? 80, 81 in that area. However, I had the experience that you were talking about doing a theater with another theater group, practical theater group, which is in Chicago. And that was my husband's theater group, then boyfriend or not even actually. Anyway, whatever. And so, but I had that feeling of like, wait, this might be funny. Let's try this. Let's see if that, and you know, it was like a playful thing without inhibition, which is a really like a gift, the gift of all gifts, right? Isn't that the best? And what a great age, I've often thought of this, what a great age to be in an ensemble because you, you know, in your early 20s, it's great age to be at because you look at the world, you just think you know more than everyone else. And you look at the world and you say, if I had that power, I would do that better. If I had that job, I would do that better. I, you know, I just, you just have a great natural cockiness at that age. And you're oblivious. Really, that's why. And that's what I would miss for people about the internet, that you could be oblivious and just think, I'm going to try this. Why not me? Oh, such a good point. And it felt that way. Yeah, that cockiness at that age. But you're not really, you don't really have it together. So you surround yourself, if you're lucky, with really good talented people who are all kind of at the same stage, right? Like Nervy, cocky, but with talent. So you're, you're lifting each other up, you know, challenging each other. But so it's a great mix of great confidence and, oh my God, take care of me. Oh, I'm following you. You know, give me something to work with here. Yeah, it's great confidence and it's a team sport. Yeah. Hey, Katherine, do you remember any of the improv games you used to play back then? There was one Joe Flaherty had us do. I remember when I first got in the cast, or maybe I was still understood, but I got to hang out with all of them at rehearsal. And Joe had a play game where you had to do, had to imitate a stand up comic at the time. But you had to do it instantly, like improvise, improvise a stand up act. But you didn't have to have the jokes. You just had to have the rhythm of the jokes. So I don't know if they would give us a name, but they would definitely give us a topic. And at the time there was this comic, Totie Fields, who would be on talk shows. Yeah, you don't remember. OK, and this will be real. I remember because I have made my family play this at the cottage. Everybody was so good at it. Oh, my Lord, they were all so good at it. I was not particularly good at it, but I do remember what I did. What did you do? I tried to do Totie Fields, but I said, I, I, uh, it's like I met a fellow and I asked him if we could go out and said, how about you go out Friday? He said, no, I'm busy. I said, how about you go out Saturday? No, I'm busy. How about you go out with me Sunday? No, I'm busy. I couldn't get a date. There's like no joke. The rhythm of the jokes. I'm sorry, I didn't even do it right. No, you did. It's perfect. This is such a good game. This is such a good game. We gave my nephew Roller skating and George Carlin and he used the mic so beautifully about swish. What's it feel like? Where are you going? You know, all like my sister, her name was Scabies. Scabies Lice or something. She was like, you know, a heady kind of comic, you know, with her notepad. Just kind of what's on my mind right now. I'm going to be really easy about it. This is new comedy. Oh, it's sort of like Stephen Wright. Remember Stephen Wright? Yes. Yes. Love him. Still quoting. It's a big world. I wouldn't want to paint it. Right. Open 24 hours. I knocked on the door. It was closed. The Dr. Morb guy came to the door. He says 24 hours. Not in a row. Is it was do you still? Sorry, I'm going to ask you a question, please. Yes, sure. Do you still draw on everything you learned at Second City? Oh, maybe not. Maybe more of your other company. Practical theater company. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Do you feel like you draw still on what you learned there? Yeah, I draw on that and I draw. But it's not one specific place. I mean, there's a lot to be said for experience and I draw on all of it. You know, for real, I mean, I draw on being live on SNL, performing live. That schedule, which was grueling. You would go in on a Monday, you'd meet whoever is hosting. And then Monday and Tuesday, writers, actors and actor writers would stay up all night. It was a very sort of drug driven schedule. It was sort of and it's still like that. I don't mean I don't mean to suggest they're doing drugs, but it was sort of driven by late night partying. But at any rate, everybody's staying up late, writing sketches, writing sketches. And then Wednesday, you would have a table read in which you would read all the sketches. And then after the table read, the producers would decide what's going in the show. And then you would rehearse that Thursday, Friday and then Saturday, you're live. And so what was the schedule for you guys at SCTV? We would start writing, I guess, I don't know, months before shooting. We would just sort of continue writing and shooting all along. Like I've heard it's at SNL, you know, if a scene doesn't make it into the show, it's more than it's dead. It's not. It's dead. Totally. We would rework stuff and over and over. We never gave up on a good idea the way we thought was a good idea. Wow. No, it was a whole different. We never had an audience. So we were just trying to make each other laugh. Yeah, it was way a thousand times more relaxed. Yeah, that's incredible. We had no sense of anybody watching the show until, you know, years later, people would come and talk to us about it. You know, my dad thought I was just making a big mistake. And, you know, he did. Why? What did he say? Well, because he was nervous. You know, he's nervous for me. It's nervous for all of us. There's seven kids nervous for all of us about what we're going to do with our lives. And I said I wanted to be acting and it didn't. I don't think it made sense until people at work said they saw me on SCTV. Then it was like, oh, OK, she's safe. It's OK. It's all good. But yeah, no, very relaxed. I hosted Saturday Night Live twice and was shocked at how many good pieces that that read through didn't make it to show. Yeah, the stuff that I thought was funny. I guess I've been wrong taste. Well, I mean, good stuff made it. But but so much good material that would get laughs and it just it's gone then, isn't it? It's gone. It's totally dead. I mean, occasionally something will come back. But I don't know. That's the that's the culture of the place. But I mean, it stands to reason that good things get lost because you read so many sketches, I mean, I mean, it goes on for hours and hours. It's a pile, you know, two feet high of sketches. So. But, you know, it's funny because when I went back to host, I would I've I've hosted a couple of times and it was hugely. It was like going back to high school and getting to redo things. Do you know what I mean? Oh, nice. Yeah. It was because I I knew how the show worked. I knew what I needed to do to succeed on the show. And the schedule hadn't changed since I was there in the 80s. It was the exact same. Right. The only thing that was different was obviously a different cast, definitely more female, friendly and different producers. And they wanted to find material for you to do. Yes, as opposed to she can be the waitress. Your cost always get your coffee, Mr. Gumbie. And Andrea and Casper can come in as the wives. And they'd come in as the waitresses. They'd come in as the. Tell me about it. What about I read that you were when, I guess, was it SCTV that you would tell your ideas to Dave Thomas and he would pitch him? Is this true? Yes, it is sad. He wouldn't pitch them on my behalf. He would just pitch them if it was a good idea. Yes, but you gave him permission to do that. Well, it was unspoken, I guess. I would say, what if we what if we do? And they'd say, hey, what if this happened? And if they laughed, he'd just go along with that. And sometimes I was that's my idea, which is really sad. Excuse me. That's my idea. Hello. When was there a moment in your life when you thought, I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm going to pitch it myself. Do you remember? No, I don't. I don't remember. You don't remember. I'm still scared. See, this is what I want to talk to you about, because I was wondering when I read that and I thought. I was so used to being shut down. Oh, yeah, that was just part of the thing. You know, it was, I don't know if I think it's a woman thing. I think it's a woman thing. But anyway, you're probably right. I think I am. But let me see. I would say that. Are you looking at? Are you looking at? I'm looking at AI to help me get through this because I'm having. What would you let me just keep it? What would Julia say? Julia, you are one of three women in the UK. OK, yes, AI is helping me here. Yes. And but there is there was and I still fight it a remnant of, for example, when I'm pitching something, you know, whatever, any aspect of a scene or this or that, there's a part of me that has to push through that pitch because that's a remnant of from way back then of not being heard. And I think it also leaves me with a little defensiveness about my ideas that's probably not healthy. But I mean, I'm aware of it as it's happening. Do you kind of know what I'm talking about? Oh, yeah. Oh, I start. I would start most. And if I'm conscious, try to be conscious of it, then I'll try not to do it. But I would start most ideas with, sorry, this might not work. But what about this? Yeah. So sorry, I know you're doing that. But yeah, the sorry, always a sorry. I would do that at a restaurant. Sorry, could I could I get more tea, please? Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Remember I asked for tea in our case. OK, sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't order this hamburger. I'm so sorry. I ordered a salad. Exactly. Sorry. Would you mind taking it back? I'll still pay. But please. Sorry. I'm sorry. I think I'm sorry. I was standing in line here. Oh, you want to go ahead? Yeah, go ahead. Oh, it's fine. No, no, no, it's fine. I'm sorry. I've said sorry to a key on my on my iPad or computer if I hit the wrong one. Sorry. Oh, dear. Is that bad? Well, you might want to get a cat scan after we finish this conversation. Just saying. It's time for a break. We'll get more wisdom from Kath and O'Hara in just a moment. Spring invites a reset. Windows open, shelves cleared, only what's useful and well made kept in rotation. Closets can follow the same rule. Fewer pieces, better pieces, nothing wasteful. If it's not versatile, thoughtfully constructed and built to last, it doesn't deserve the hanger. That's where Quince stands out. Elevated fabrics, clean cuts and pricing that makes choosing quality over quantity feel both sustainable and smart. Quince creates high quality wardrobe staples from premium materials like 100 percent European linen, pure silk, organic cotton poplin and lightweight cotton cashmere knits made for shifting seasons. 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So you talked about when you were doing a CTV, so you were one of two women in the cast, right? Oh, I know where you're going, lady. Yes, so tell me. That's what's wrong with aging. You start seeing things a little too clearly. Yeah, that's why men like to go with the younger women, because they don't get it yet. Perfect. Perfect. That's the problem with aging. You see things a little too clearly. So the fact that you guys were being paid less than your male counterparts on you know what, though, I've got to correct that. Because really only in the last few years that I find out that John Candy also got OK, explain that the two women and John Candy got paid less than everyone. Now, John, God bless him, turned it around big time as as the years went on. Yes, he got a he got a lawyer and he got more than anybody and good for him. Well, so maybe it was about why you just had shitty representation or was it we had no representation. Oh, well, so there's the problem. These are the days when you didn't need representation to say, just that we're going to pay. We're going to pay you two hundred dollars a week. And you're like, yes. Oh, that was exactly what it was like for me. I know, I remember. And I'm not kidding. Of course, you're not kidding. I remember that when I got first hired to do Second City and I was doing. I was in I was still at school at Northwestern in Chicago. And I called my acting teacher and I said, guess what? Bud, his name was Bud Byer. He's passed away. And I said, guess what? I just got hired to do Second City. And he said, how much are they paying you? And I said, yeah, he said that as opposed to anything else. And I said, oh, I don't know. I forgot to ask. And then he laughed at me and made me feel so bad about myself. I mean, he was like, oh, God, you're kidding. Oh, he's he's it was a real asshole move. Boy, was he jealous? Like he wouldn't be able to teach you. He wouldn't be able to you would you would stop doing classes with him or something. Well, guess what? I kind of did because. That was coming. Yeah, I started doing theater in Chicago and and I took a lot of past fails and put off semesters and things like that. But anyway, it's all good. It all worked out. Talk about when something ends. I know like when a show ends, it can be so emotional. And I know that Marty Short, he threw a party for you and he played a bunch of clips of your time at SCTV. It was so emotional. That's the very sweet of him to have done that. Isn't it? Why are you laughing? He didn't do it. Yeah, he did. But I think he did it to torture me. I don't know if he was doing it to be sweet. Oh, for real. No, there was a party. No, it was a party. It was a party at the end of a season, I guess. And I had given my notice that I was leaving and it was. It was all about my personal life. I swear, my quitting. You know, I got out of high school and got into Second City. That was my life. Right. And Second City to SCTV, like I just went along like, oh, never do this. Ever get paid. Oh, it's amazing. You know, and then I finally hit at some point at this reality, like, where is my life going? And I need to focus on that other part, like meeting someone or, you know, I mean, I was raised to think you get married and you have children, if God willing. You know, and that's, you know, and that's your life. Yeah. So I so I quit mainly for that reason. So it was really emotional. I didn't want to leave the show really. I didn't want to quit, but I thought if I don't focus on, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not sure. Smartest thing really made my dad sad because he was so happy at the show. Was doing well. And he heard about it at work. That was awful. Hmm. But yeah, anyway. So yeah, there was a party at the end of a season at Marty's house and he put a clip package together of my work. Oh, it was like, why? Why did you do this to me, Marty? That was my reaction. I just remember going outside the house crying. So, Catherine, I thought it'd be fun. Sorry. Oh, I see. So it. OK, got it. Got it. So when you did work with Chris on all the movies that you work with him on, Chris, guess all of that stuff's improvised, although there's an outline, correct? The way Larry David does on Curb. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's no dialogue right now, though they would have a few. They definitely have great running jokes. Yes, of course. Like in Best in Show, it was in the script that I would run into guys who had the best sex of their lives with me. I mean, it couldn't be here. I want that for all my characters. And Chris never repeated like from take to take. When you're improvising all your dialogue like that and you do, you know, one, two, three takes, whatever you think. I came up with something there. It just happened. And now do I repeat it? Oh, is that cheesy to repeat it? And oh, how can I get that joke in? Like, what if that take isn't used? And, you know, maybe it's a sound problem or whatever the shot and like, oh, we came up with that. Like, where does that go? Can we not love to be, you know, there's always that challenge in the brain like, no, open up, just be open to whatever happens. You know, just listen. Chris Cass would never repeat a thought between takes. Oh, really? As an actor, he wouldn't. Crazy as an improviser, just so free thinking. Wow. We did that on Veep. We used to, it wasn't necessarily an outline, but very often there would be scenes and Armando Inucci, who created the show, he would, he would say, OK, forget the script, just just go and do something. Go, just go try this in rehearsal, one for fun, whatever. You know, you've got to get to point A to point B. And it was so much fun to do that kind of thing. Terrifying. But as long as you know what point A and point B is, then you can. If you know the parameters, I find when it's just open and says, hey, why don't you improvise something? What? Within what? What are you talking about? Right. Do you love your down timer? You work it a lot. Well, you're doing a podcast, so obviously you love working. You know, I love working. I don't love being away from home. And even now, I mean, my kids are grown. Let's talk about that. So you have two sons and so do I. Yes. Don't you just want to raise them to be lovely partners to somebody? Just. Yes, you do. And are they are your sons partners to anyone? Yeah, they are. They both they both live with their girlfriends and and they are good guys. And they and they really love each other. Do you two get along like that? They're like, yeah, because thieves. I mean, I think they're like that. Yes, it's. That's my biggest triumph in life, actually. Yeah. Yeah. How did you do that working when they were little? How'd you figure that out? I didn't. I really didn't work much. Oh, you didn't work much? No, I didn't. No. And I'd work in town. Remember the first the first offer I got to work, they were both. How old were they? Probably about five and eight, maybe six and nine. And I got offered a job in London. And yeah, and it was a six week job. And we had a great nanny at the time. She wasn't living, but she was a great, great, great girl. So they came for two weeks. I was alone for two weeks. They came back for two weeks, got them out of school, whatever. So I thought, you know, you've always heard that with relationships with couples. Two weeks is the limit. It shouldn't go longer than that apart. Unless it works for both of you, I guess. Right. Same for kids. Yeah. So that worked at that age. What about you when they were little? When they were little. I mean, yeah, I was doing Seinfeld when I had both of them. So with their five years apart. Yeah. And so with my older son, Henry, I bring him to work. I had a nursery on set and so he came to work with our nanny. And so I go back and forth. Frankly, that was really hard, you know, because there was there was always this pull in one direction or the other. And it was sort of hard to a certain extent to kind of be where you were. Yeah. But that's how I did it. And then I had our second son, Charlie, just it was just that last year of Seinfeld. So he was just a baby. By then I realized it was better for me to leave him at home and go to work and then come back. But I mean, we were in we were all in LA. So it wasn't like I was on location or anything like that. So Henry had a memory of me working. He remembered craft service. He was just like crazy. Oh, yeah, they love that. They love it. Does Charlie just Charlie feel ripped off because he didn't get to be on the set all the time? No, I don't think so. I took a picture. There's a picture of him on set in the in the Seinfeld diner that I have him on the tape. No, he doesn't feel ripped off at all. But what I was going to say is that a couple years later, I did go back to work. I was doing a series, but it was a single camera series called Watching LA. And I was I had not been gone from home while he was young. And so now he was like four and he came to set one day and I was showing them the sets inside the studio. And one of the sets was a bedroom. And and so I was pointing it all out. And then as he was leaving, he says, mommy, I love your new bedroom. I thought this child. I've moved here. Oh, the guilt. That's cute. But now your boys are in your boys are in the business. Is that right? Yeah, well, the older one, the 30 year old is doing was doing set construction. And the younger one, who's 27, is a set dresser in Vancouver. There's tons of work there. But they're so lucky they have jobs. They're so lucky they have jobs. And both of our boys, too, are working in this industry. And it is quite a remarkable thing to witness, isn't it? To see them. Yeah. But I'm really glad they're artistic. Aren't you glad that your kids are artistic? Because they are. I mean, obviously they're creating, making things. That's cool as shit. Well, we definitely encouraged that at home, didn't we? Yeah, we did. Because it's all we knew, frankly, I didn't know anything else. I can't even. It's like a sense of humor. I think you're so lucky if you're raised with a sense of humor. Boy, isn't it the truth? It's a gift. It's a gift you either get given or you don't. I don't know how you get it on your own. You know, Fran Liebowis was on this thing and we were talking about that and she said, it's a sense of humor. It doesn't mean that you are funny, funny, but you have a sense of humor. Yeah. You understand what is funny. And yeah, which is sort of the beginning for me anyway of all the relationships I have that is top of the list. I mean, oh, yeah, or aligned with kindness, I think. Right. It has to be there, doesn't it? Yeah, well, you and your husband met in comedy, didn't you? Yes, we did. Yeah, yeah. Talk about your husband, Beau, and can you tell the story of what you wrote in your journal? Do you still write a journal, by the way? Do you keep a journal? No, and journal is such a lofty name for what the fuck I was writing. What were you doing? I woke up at 11 again. What am I going to do? Yes. You could publish a Catherine. That's your memoir. Sad. Well, that's it. That's called a dead giveaway. Yeah. Oh, tell me what you wrote. Lame, lame, lame. But I did, yeah. Why this guy? Beau, well, she talks to me every day. Why won't he ask me out? We're supposed to get married. And did you fall in love with him like straight off the bat? Kind of, yeah. And once we did go out, that was it. There was no not go. Well, I mean, we've had a couple of breakups, but yeah, you never had a break up with your husband, have you? No. Have you gone through? Have you gone through periods? Sure. What? Oh, of course. Always. I mean, anybody who says they haven't is that's life is lying. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's always going to be some conflict, but he's a very nice person. So it all, I mean, he is actually. And I get the sense, Beau is too. Yeah, he's a good guy. And we just, we really laugh a lot every day. And your parents were married a long time, right? Yeah, 50, some 56 years, I guess, when my dad went. Goodness. Well, you're on your way. God bless you to that. Wait a minute. And then your parents were married that long and then they died within 10 months of each other. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. That must have been brutal. Well, it was for them. You know, I remember being really grateful. Oh, really? Well, I mean, I always was, but especially grateful at my mom's funeral that my mom and dad had given because my dad went first and then my mom died 10 months later that they had given us each other because we were all together. They get, you know, they had seven kids and we're all still going. Thank God. My oldest brother is 83. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And that they just seemed like the most beautiful gift that they'd given us each other to be with. Yeah. Yeah, my mom, you know, you hear that a lot about couples, you know, one dies and the other dies soon. I would not have predicted that about my mother. She was really vivacious and loved, loved painting and drawing and dressing beautifully and talking to everybody on the streets, wherever she went, she was friendly with everyone and just, you know, really loved life. And but my poor dad had gone through a lot. My mom took care of him for years. And I think that really just wore her down physically. Oh, so wasn't I don't think it was a typical like, oh, my world, he's gone. So my world is gone. She was she was physically done. She was done. Yeah. What did they teach you about marriage? Do you think in retrospect? Oh, we got to laugh, laughing, making each other laugh is a very sexy thing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it is. It is. Oh, yeah, I think back on everybody trying to date everybody at Second City Theatre was because we were making each other laugh. Well, we should be together. I'm totally going to find you funny. I find you funny. That joke is amazing. I am fucking you tonight. Right. For real. You're funny. I'm going to have you. Totally. Like my old fashion wave saying, I'm going to help my way with you. But they but sense of humor, for sure. I agree with that. And faith, faith. My mom and dad were devout Catholics, but never forgetting that the greatest gift is a sense of humor. You know, so, you know, very faithful, but definitely with humor. When you were talking about having all those siblings, did you ever think you would have lots of kids like your parents? Yes, I did. I really stupidly assumed it. Yeah. Why didn't you? You just if you don't mind my asking. I got married late. Oh, I see. Uh-huh. And my body was, you know, every time I had cramps every month, the worst cramps, my sisters and I all got them really bad. And they would take they would take two twenty twos. It was a codeine you could get in Canada. And I would never if I took one, I would hurl nonstop so I could never take anything. So I'd have to like play these mind games to will the pain away. But I would think when I had those pains, I thought, well, some day of children, it'll all be worth it. I'll have seven kids of my own. But no. But you had two good ones. That's good. They're wonderful. Yes. Yeah. I often think, oh, I wish I had one more. You're thinking comedy. Threes, I actually am. Hey, thank you for giving us so much of your time today. You're really very generous. It's really nice to talk to you. You will edit. Won't you please? Yeah, you're going to sound like a million bucks by the time we're done with this thing. Oh, you're beautiful. I love you. I got you back, baby. Thank you, Julie. I'm going to ask you a few sort of rapid fire questions. Yeah. Tell me, is there something you're looking forward to? Seeing my sons. Yes. Yeah, it has been a while now. How long has it been? Like in July. It's been a couple months. Yeah. Yeah. Is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21? Say, good for you, you nervy little thing. Oh, I like that affirmation. Good for you. Is there something you wish you'd spent less time on? In your life? Oh, maybe sleeping. I have never in my entire life heard somebody say they wish they'd spent less time sleeping. Okay, that is. Can I tell you something? You are fucking lucky. You sleep too much? Seriously? I didn't say recently. Well, I'm just asking. In your life. So when you were like a teenager, when you were a teenager, you would sleep until like two o'clock in the afternoon, right? But I was also, you know, hormone like S and 16, 17. I was just, I would come home from school and just sleep. And then my mom and dad yell for dinner and I'd go, no, let me alone. You know, I just wanted to sleep. And then when I worked at Second City Theatre, you know, we did the show and then we'd go to one of our houses and stay up all night coming up with ideas. It was so fun and electric and exciting. Oh, I didn't want anything else in my life. It was so great. But then I would sleep most of the day. Got it. So that's why I think maybe I missed some things. I think I missed John Candy's wedding. For real? I was asleep. No. Why am I admitting you're like Barbara Walters? You're just getting everything out of me. I am. You're going to make me cry now. Any minute it's going to happen. Here, this will make you cry. Is there something you want me to know about aging Catherine or shall I say it like this? Is there something you would like me to know about aging Catherine? I'll let you find out for yourself. I don't want to fuck you Catherine. I don't want to taint it. I don't want to taint it for you and I don't want to tease you in case it's not as good as what I'm getting. Oh, God. Catherine, you're fantastic. You are. You're awfully good at this. I adore you. I love you. Thank you. Thank you. I love you too. Are you going to call your mom? Yeah. Are you going to call your mom? Yeah. Who are you actually going to say you talk to? Catherine Hepburn came back from the dead. Oh, all right. There you go. You know, Jane Fonda was on this podcast. She talked about Catherine Hepburn being very, very competitive. Wow. I guess so. Oh, yeah. That's not a surprise though. Is it really? No, it's not. I kind of had dinner once with Jane Fonda and a bunch of women. She was being honored the next evening. Yes. And she told us about shooting coming home and how the director, he said there would be no sex scene because John Voight's character couldn't feel anything from the waist down and she said, but I can. Do you know the scene? I sure do. He services her. Yeah, it's the only thing I remember from that movie. Yeah. But she had to fight for it. It gives new meaning to the title because that was remember because she was having sex with. Brewster. Brewster. Yeah. At the top of the film and it's without passion and any. Yeah. Yeah. Then John, John Voight knew what to do. Yeah, because she told him off camera. That's what needed to be done. I love that. There was going to be no sex in the movie because the man said the man couldn't feel anything, so why would there be anything? Why would anyone get anything out of the deal? Yeah. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah. It's funny because I mean it. It's the only thing I remember from that movie. I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Isn't it? Yeah. Anyway, thank you again for being so kind and generous. Thank you, Julia. And I give you all my love. Thank you. And I look forward to seeing you. I hope soon. I would love that, please. Yes, please. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much. Take care. Thank you. You too. Bye. Well, that was so much fun. I'm going to get my mom on Zoom to tell her all about this conversation. Hi, mom. Hi, love. How you doing? Hi. I like your vote pin. That's very good. Thank you. Big news this year. Vote. Yeah. Vote. Thank you very much. Have you voted yet, mommy? Yep. I voted by mail. Very nice. So I talked to Katherine O'Hara today, who is a wonder. And I know I admire her so much. I don't know how to say it. I just respect and admire her so much. Although, mommy, I have to tell you something. I think I offended her to start out. I told her, you know, she's a devout Catholic. And she comes from a large Catholic family and the church has a lot of! I'm just kidding for her. And I told her the Catholic priest joke that David Cideris wrote about in his New Yorker piece. Do you have any jokes you remember, mom? Yeah, I was just, we were talking last night about the first joke that you ever heard, you know? Yeah. It's not very fun. I mean, it's hysterical, but it's not funny, really. Well, what is it? His grandfather was a minister. And his 80th birthday, his mother drove him across country to Oklahoma. And daddy Tom's about four at that time. He says, I've got a joke. His grandfather loved jokes. So he said, oh, well, tell it, tell it. So he says, why did the ocean roar? Well, you would, too, if you had crabs on your bottom. Well, I mean, that's the oldest joke in the world. But every kid, every kid knows it as their first joke. I mean, I think at least daddy did. And I remember thinking that it was just hysterical, that joke. Oh, really? When you were young? When I was young, yeah. I don't mean now. Well, let me ask you something. Can you define a kind of thing that makes you laugh? It's funny that you say define because almost if you can define it, you're not going to laugh at it. Right. The joke, the funniness comes from, remember, surprise, but also the turn, the twist that you didn't expect. Yes. So that is, can I define it? No, but I sure know when it happens. Yeah, you sure know when it happens. I mean, I remember when we were little, you and I used to howl. Well, chances are I was howling and you were laughing because I was howling. But we would watch. I think it was soupy sales or was it Captain Ken Gru with the ping pong balls? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes. But he would do a thing and ping pong balls would fall on him unexpectedly. And three year old me thought that was the fun. I mean, it was essentially like a jack in the box or something. Yeah. Now, a good joke is so important. Yeah. But who could remember them? Well, I'm asking you, can you remember a single joke? Hold on a second. Close, but no cigar. No. No, I can't. Can't. No, sorry. No, mad because I know some funny jokes. You do. I wish you could remember them. There was one time I was telling a joke at somebody's 80th birthday party. Yeah. And I got up to tell it. It's it's it's about the guy that's he's in a refrigerator and the refrigerator ends up hanging over in a balcony. It's very complicated. But I got through all of the complications and then I can remember the end. So I started to laugh so hard and I couldn't I couldn't even think or laughing so hard and everybody was howling and nobody ever got the put it said to me always. What was a joke? I said, I have no idea. But I got it and it was so funny. And if I could cross people, they would have laughed. So, Julia, I know jokes that are so funny that it project. But you don't get it. But they're going to be silent for now. What I wish I could know the refrigerator one with the man in the refrigerator hanging over a balcony. Oh, no, it's about, you know, the guy that's this is the sort of in bed with the wife, not his wife. Somebody else. And so then he probably jumps into the fridge. But and then somehow the the movers come and they take the refrigerator. I know it's very complicated. Well, it sounds like a smash hit, mom. You should take that on the road. No, in the telling is all makes sense. Yes, well, evidently, that's the case. The telling, the telling is the key. The telling is the key. Amen. Amen. Amen. All right, mom, well, listen, I'm really happy to have this conversation. What is it? I'm so dying to hear your interview. What interview? Which one? With Catherine. With Catherine. I forgot we were on the we were on the on it. Or the podcast. What is it said to do with Catherine? OK. Mommy, so long farewell. I'll see you next time I see you. I'll see you. I'll see you soon. OK, love you. Love you. Bye. Steve Nelson, executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittle's Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Wil Schlegel and, of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh