Something is changing in how we build, and it's not just the tools. It's what we value, what we keep, what we hand to machines, and what we hold on to. I'm Deb Johnston. And I'm Reg Prentice. This is To Build is Human, a podcast for the people navigating what it means to build in a moment when everything around them is changing. We need teams of people who are focused on making stuff better in our industry that are software people. And we need to hire those people in and give them roles where either they don't have billability expectations or give us billability expectations and let us solve problems for our clients. Everyone can benefit in all areas of continuously improvement. Every role that I've held has taught me something new, not just in tech, but about people, about process and about purpose. As architect, you go into these operations, they have to be empowering. They have to just open the door and be used as a catalyst to propel for betterment and not be a hindrance. So I can't open up any one of these systems or tools that bring the form of automation and bind myself to it. So even with the world of AI and machine learning now, I keep stressing that the human factor can never, ever go away. Find us wherever you listen. My name is Mark Arlepage, and you are listening to Entree Architect Podcast, where each week I speak with inspiring, passionate people who share their knowledge and expertise, all to help you build a better business as a small firm entrepreneur architect. My guest today is Maor Greenberg, founder of Spatial AI, a company working at the intersection of artificial intelligence and building engineering. With nearly two decades of experience across architecture, real estate, and construction, Maor has spent his career solving the inefficiencies that slow down projects. Today, he's focused on one of the biggest challenges architects face, getting projects engineered and permitted efficiently. Through Spatial, Mayor and his team combine AI with licensed engineers to deliver permit-ready structural MEP and energy solutions in days, not months. Mayor Greenberg, welcome to Entree Architect Podcast. Thank you for having me, Mark. You pretty much nailed it. All right. I'm looking forward to this conversation because I'm super interested in AI and the things that we're doing in our industry. specifically. I'm also a business guy. So I know that you're building a business and venture funded and those kinds of things. And so that's exciting for me as well. I'm interested in that. I want to focus mostly on the company and what it does. But before we do all of that, I want to know your story. When did you discover your passion for architecture and the things that you're doing today and who or what inspired you to get started? That's a great question. I'll go a little bit farther. All right. One thing that all of us needs to do and something that I've done in a very early age is learning what is my superpower, what I'm really good at. And pretty quick, I learned that my specialty is sales. But as a kid, I was always curious about how things are getting built to a point that maybe it was done in Israel, so it's not really called PG&E. But when PG&E, just to create a connection, will come to our house, I will watch them playing with the panels and see what they're doing. When workers will come to my house, same thing. And then I learned my second passion, which is the creation. And when I started, I started 20 years ago, opened my first company in Israel, focusing on construction and real estate and development because a lot change in Israel that gives you the rights of old buildings roof if you reinforce them against airquake, adding an elevator and a safe room, which is very essential in Israel. So the government done something very smart that you get the rights of the roof. So that's how I also got to development. But when I started in construction, because I started in such a young age, I automatically got attracted to learn structural engineering and architectural to be able to speak the same language, show the same knowledge and not being judged just because my age. So I take my superpower, which is sales, which is easier to sell a construction project and sell yourself in that case. And then I added my passion, which is seeing something getting created and built. And the best industry to be, it's construction to be able to see creation. So that led to what you're doing today. What are you doing today and how did you get there? Yeah, so I moved to the United States 13 years ago, started a construction company over here. Pretty quick, it leads the company to become a design and build firm. So we hired architects to be in-house as part of the company. Then we said, hey, why not offering our client a fully integrated service? Why just focusing on the nice title design and build? What is really design and build? Let's spill it. Then I opened a showroom, a showroom that sells everything you need to build a house, windows, doors, appliances, cabinets. I was trying to create a showroom that if you look at it from an Home Depot perspective of products that they can offer, just putting the building side on the side, focusing on the luxury items. and then I also had interior designers within it. So when I become fully integrated owning the construction, architectural, the interior design, the structural engineering and the MEP engineering was always the element that was missing. How do you create a perfect permit set for your customers? And then also how do you create a perfect permit set that then it can act as a Bible on site and the workers understand what is in it and being able to build without having 30% waste and rework. That was another very important element. And then I came up with the idea of special. And then I met my co-founder, which had a similar idea, but he was located in Israel. And he came from a tech company called Viv that done modular homes. And we said, OK, let's try to combine that. Let's find a way to get our architects in the beginning in-house. But then, of course, any architect focused on the part they enjoy, which is the part that I also like. It's the creation, the creative part. They can focus on creating the programming of the house, the schematics, the floor plan, the elevations, the part they really enjoy. And they're not really having fun with creating the full permit set. Adding the layer of automating for them the structural engineering, the MEP engineering, but also helping them wrap up the entire permit package. So this is what really special is doing. It's helping you finalize the entire permit set, including engineering, but at the same time being able to validate it against building regulations by using the power of AI. and also running an issue that we probably had as an architect is the design conflict detection. It's making sure that all the systems in the house at the end can be actually built and produced. So no more issues of not able to run the ducts in the attic. No more issues, hey, suddenly the engineer put a steel beam under the toilet on the top floor. There is no way to run the store lines, which happened to me as a builder a few times. And the most craziest story I have, architect design a vaulted ceiling was during COVID. an engineer just looked at it in 2D and give them a flat ceiling. So those issues are getting eliminated with the power of AI. And the rest is, we like to call it more automation than just putting the buzzword AI on it. To be able to create engineering, you need a full automation scale and not just AI buzzword. So where are you based? Palo Alto, California. And can you talk a little bit about the company? Because it's a mix of AI and human workers, engineers. So how does that work? Talk us through how the company actually works. Yeah, that's a really good, deep question. So to keep it short though, an average of engineering a house for a structural engineer, it's about 80 hours. For the MEP engineers, it's roughly about between 80 to actually 120 in many cases. And it's all started how we can reduce the time. So the human involvement is less, but the human involvement is in the most important element of the design. So the first KPI is, well, let's get it down to 60 hours on average, then 40, then 20, and then all the way down to two hours. Which means the layouts are getting done by a full automation. The typical details are getting selected by full automation. The calculations is done by full automation. The human comes review what was created, can edit input or recommendation based on, hey, there is a way to avoid a wall in the middle of the house as a sheer wall and by just changing a beam. So it will come spec the new beam, but then the automation will run again and automate the rest of the sets for him And then because part of regulation you have to have an engineer that stamping and taking responsibility And we didn feel comfortable or wanted to ask other engineer to do so So we have the engineers in to be able to validate stamp and we taking the responsibility of the company. Very interesting. Yeah. So when you're talking about full automation and you said it's pulling out typical details and things like that, are those details being created by the AI or is that pre-designed and there's a package and it says, okay, I need this detail for this specific location and it's just pulling it and placing it on the drawing? It's a mix. So I will say about 80% of the N is the same typical detail you used to. It's the schedule of the shear rolls as an example, the schedule of the bolts. So those typical details do not change. But when you have the age cases, it's where the AI comes in again and designing it from scratch and putting the right spacing. For example, on foundation, in many cases, it can be 12 inches wide, it can be 16, 18. So the measurements will change. And if it's a custom house that right now have a very specific huge window on the front to the staircase with the balloon framing, and it's only one typical detail for that specific project, the automation will generate it just for that project. So it's always a mix. And in some cases, just to put it out there, there is no way to do it with automation. And that's, again, where you have the human that comes in and finalize it. Who are your clients? Are they architects or consumers, contractors? Our target is anyone involved in the design. So it's architects, drafters, design and build firms. As you know, the best thing you can do is hire a licensed architect, but it's not really required in many cases. So anyone involved in the design process is our clients. At the same time, we also have a few production builders that right now we're testing and running pilots with. But our main goal is to help small to mid-sized architectural designers and design and build firms. That's our business plan. Well, you're talking to them. That's who's listening right now. So can you walk us through a typical project? Let's say it's a new custom residential house. An architect has a new client, has a new house. What does the architect do? And when are you getting involved? And then what happens from there? So a few ways to work with us. Architect, again, like I said, finalizing the schematic, the programming, the floor plan, something that he used to do before is sending the plans for red marks for Fungineer. The only difference with us, there is no red marks because the automation will create the set. just the set's not going to be stamped yet. And it can work with us in three ways. One, we have a plugin that sits in Autodesk products. So click of a button, you're defining what is the floor plan, what is the elevations and other requirement documents that we're going to ask you. And those information will move to our platform. And then you can keep working within our platform or a human from our side will contact him and provide the service. Second option, same way as you're used to, just email us the information, give us the DWGs, give us the RVT, give us a PDF file, even in many cases, our human will take those files, generate the plans and take over the process. And then third, which is going to be launched in Q3, just log into our platform, upload the files and continue the design within our platform. So right from the beginning? Right from the beginning, but again, I still recommend to do the floor plan innovation with Autodesk products because, you know, it exists for 50 years. Right, right. Then Rivet is 20 plus years. There is a lot of tools we still do not have. But as soon as you finalize the design, we can take over within our platform. Right. And then your team and your technology is creating the full permit set ready to be submitted to the building department. Correct. Yeah, you see it live happening in front of you. So the process starts by we can take 2D. We have our own proprietary technology and we have patent pending to convert 2D to 3D. So we take in a no data file. I don't know how much you know about how DWG files are saved and PDF files are saved, but there is no data in there. So we take in the non-data file and then we can convert it to a 3D object-oriented model. An object-oriented model means that we can define a wall, the roof, the windows, and all the elements that was in the design as a separate data. Then, literally a process of 60 seconds, you click construction engineering, the plants are getting generated in front of your eyes. You move to the electrical automation, same thing. And we're creating a set that is compliant with the state and the municipality building codes. And we keep adding more and more municipalities, but from a state level, we're pretty much covering most of the U.S. right now. That's interesting. So you have engineers that are licensed in those states? Correct. Okay. Yeah. And if we don't, we have the partners that are. That, again, from our case, we are taking the responsibility and they're part of our company. And then when it gets submitted to the building department, does that go back to the architect and the architect handles that? or is that part of your service as well? Correct. So right now we are not taking over the permit submission process. Maybe in the near future, we're going to partner with some players that this is their main focus. But we also still believe that, and we want to push that belief that architects are not replaceable. If you see, there is a big AI buzz around trying to replace architects, trying to optimize floor plan and elevations. And I believe that most of the people are missing really what the main task of an architect is. it's managing the entire project. Right. Responsibility and accountability. So we try also not to cross the line and get the people that are trying to encourage and make them bigger to feel like we're trying to come after their spot. So they're still managing the process. They're talking and communicating with the city. We're just helping them to be fully integrated. So just instead of just being an architect, now you have engineering in-house, you have MP in-house by just using us and our tools. Yeah. And it's the pricing is the flat fee. And you're always going to know your price. And actually, it's going to also help you to be more profitable because now something that you many cases, most of the architects do not do. You can mark up the engineering. Right. And you can make profits from it and not just managing it for no cost. Which we should be doing anyway. I agree. Because then you are the one who's getting blamed and yelled because, again, you manage the entire process. Yeah, exactly. So it goes back to the architect. the architect then takes over and does submission. And then during construction, architect back on for responsibility. Is there any role that Spatial takes in the construction process or once you permit, you're out? So we still can help with RFIs. So we're still there to support and make changes. Another thing that we are doing, I forgot to mention, is we actually also helping the architect to know the cost of the build ahead of time. So we're creating a takeoff or a full bomb, if you want to call it from a tech perspective, because it's very, very detailed to the amount of nails that are required to build this house. And always telling you what is the cost to build it, how energy efficient is it, and what is the chance the permit will be approved. That document can also serve during construction. It's all about how many beam objects you're selecting and if you're defining all the building materials, of course, from a Finnish perspective. And can be served for our homeowner or the client. So another thing that we're helping the architect is to make sure that the design doesn't start over. And I'm sure you experience that you design something amazing because you're a creative creature. But at the end, you design something that is above the customer budget. So we're trying to make sure that even that doesn't happen. So we're telling you the cost. And again, you can collaborate. Actually, again, I didn't mention it. You can collaborate within a platform with a builder, the homeowner, or any service provider you like. So during construction, you have one place. Instead of using Bluebeam as an example, which many builders do not have and homeowners do not have access, within a platform, everyone can collaborate, annotate and comment to each other if something needs to happen related to the plants. Let's take a quick break to say thank you to our sponsors for their support of this episode. This episode of Entree Architect Podcast is supported by WeCollabify, one of our trusted allied partners. As this community has grown over the years, one thing has become very clear to me. The partners we choose matter. Allied partners are not sponsors. They're not advertisers. They are organizations that we've taken the time to get to know, to work alongside, and to trust. They understand the real pressures of practice and the responsibility that comes with leading a small firm. 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Yes, you heard that right. HSW credits for episodes of Detailed Podcast. Listen to an episode, check out the learning objectives, and use what you've learned while listening to take the course. The program is free. It's simple and can be found at rcat.com under the Resources tab. Or just go to rcat.com slash rcatemy. That's ARCAT.com slash ARCATEMY. That's ARCAT.com slash ARCADEMY. Please visit our sponsors today and thank them. Thank them for supporting you, the Entree Architect community. Let's talk about regulations and codes. There are thousands of jurisdictions that architects are dealing with every day. throughout the country. How is your technology and your team keeping up with making sure, because you said that these are fully ready for permit. How do you know that your drawings that you're putting together are meeting all the regulations of the state and local jurisdictions? Great question. So again, just to say we're not trying to replace architects. So when it's coming to the designs, yes, we can help you and flag setbacks. We can help and flag daylight plans, making sure that you're compliant. But when it's coming to the aesthetic of the building, is still you and the city. Because most of those things are not a written code, as you know, it's a recommendation or encouraging you to select a brown siding to a modern house. Right, architectural regulations, yeah. Yes, but when it's coming to the building, we are appealing it from a state level. So from federal, moving to a county level, and then we're moving to the city municipality building regulations codes. So when we're putting the notation on the plans and we're creating the engineer plans, is complied with that jurisdiction that you're working on. So you're pulling all the data from those codes and saying, okay, compare this design to these codes, see where there might be any conflicts, then adjusts that. So you're actually working with that specific code of that specific town that the architect is working in. Correct. And we should look at it a bit different than you. You're looking at it as an architect. We're also looking at it as a lawyer. Yes. Because most of the codes are just, it's a legal document and it's all about how you read it. So we're looking at it from a few different perspectives. And then we have a compiler that gives you the best answer. Soon, probably by the end of the year, you're going to be able to fix your plans within our platform. Right now, we're just flagging what needs to be adjusted, what needs to be fixed. And then again, you can change it within our platform or you can move back into AutoCAD or Revit, whatever platform you use, and come back to us. Do you imagine a time that building departments are essentially, you know, when your drawings are being developed through a system like yours and you know that they meet code and they go to the building department? Do you think there will be a time where the building department and the technology are all integrated and they're basically pre-approved when they get to the building department? I definitely hope so. That's the only way we're going to be able to boost production in the United States and create some affordability. The way that we're looking at it, and again, hopefully it will happen that in some point it will say design by special, verified by special. The city is just going to need to look at it. Okay, it's fully regulated. We just need to make sure that the aesthetic design of the building is following our internal guidelines and the building should be approved. For me, the way that I approach construction, it's how we can reduce time. even when I've done it with my previous companies was if I can control the entire process, how much time I can reduce. And by reducing time, I can reduce costs because the most expensive delta in a project is the cost of renting two homes or paying two mortgages. And then the time that you need to wait and life and inflation keep growing on you at the same time. So if we can get it to a point that instead of the average in the industry, takes 27 weeks to generate a permit set all the way down to less than a week because the automation responds within a few seconds in many cases, two minutes, three minutes. That's when we can make the biggest impact on this industry. Yeah. And hopefully somebody is working on the jurisdiction side of things that can plug into your system and they know it's coming, they know it meets code and they can just check off. Because saving all that time going from months or weeks to days, and then you submit it, and then it sits in the building department for another three months getting reviewed and approved. And, you know, it would be awesome that the drawings are sent off, or even it's not even a drawing at that point, the data is sent off to the building department. The building department sees the green light, knows that it meets code, and they check off and they say, yes, you're good to go. So I can tell you that the federal government is pushing. There was a lot of conferences and conversation around it. Some states are also pushing. It's coming from the state. Just someone needs to get it all the way down to the municipality. Yes. And how they can control their budget. That's a different subject that it's above our pay grade to appeal, but there is always an issue with budgets. Even if your solution is cheaper, it doesn't mean that they can get the funds and change the way they work based on it. Yeah. And you're also replacing jobs, which also becomes another political hot potato. Definitely. But you're creating opportunities at the same time. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. So what does Spatial look like in the future? What are your plans moving forward? What does it look like in the next three years? So right now, our focus is to become your service provider. In the near future, our goal is to become the operating system for the industry. After you finalize the creative part, you move to within our platform, and that platform is helping you until the end of the construction. What do you think? Let's talk bigger, you know, in terms of the bigger picture. and AI and architects, what do you think the biggest opportunity architects are missing when they're looking at AI and how AI is going to be impacting our profession? I'll tell you my experience. First of all is thinking that using tools like ChatGPT, Cloud, Gemini can actually produce the right answer you're looking for. And it doesn't. It doesn't really understand fully the building codes in many cases. and that's making the design instead of saving time take sometimes longer. Another thing that I'm experiencing is also our type of clients are changing. And it's really realizing very quick that your clients today are ChatGPT clients. And then you're getting a book every time you send them something because they take what you created and doing exactly in many cases what the architect is doing and asking ChatGPT. So it's also now going to change to a way that you need to create boundaries with the clients and stop that process very quick because they want to make you create 10 irritations for a design. And you're not going to get out of that loop because they believe whatever one of those AI tools told them. The other thing is that now let's see what they can do besides, of course, using us because we're the best. It's finding those tools that can help you reduce time. It's finding the right AI email system that can help you with replies, with annotations, and organize your mailbox. It's making sure you're using the right tools, which I know from my experience that many are not using, how to manage the entire project. And the third is, now that you have the power of AI to save humans, in many cases that you can't afford hiring in that case, so you don't really reducing jobs, you never hire that person, realize really what is the cost that's costing you to produce the plants and how much of time it takes. And you can use AI to help you do those daily tasks and become much more efficient as a firm or as an individual. The last episode we had, I think it was the last episode, I spoke with Adam Katz of Cradle, who is doing similar things. Definitely not the same thing that you're doing, but they're coming to it closer to the communication side and creating a communication hub for the team. Lots of AI involved, human team as well. Do you imagine that, you know, I'm looking at the industry and I'm seeing all these different solutions being created. And there's a company that's developing a little piece to solve this problem and a company that solving this problem and another company solving this problem Do you think that these technologies eventually merge and become part of one process and one framework So unfortunately, from experience and of course, analyzing an industry, if someone started as a point solution, it's going to stay as a point solution. And the problem with point solutions tools is they're good as the people is using it. And in some point, if you have too many tools, you're not using it. what I've done again I'll go back to my experiencing managing a few companies I always look for the tools that can combine few tasks under one for example if it's the task management tool can it also control my calendar can it also produce a link to my meetings can it create the notes for meetings that I'm going live so I combine four tools under one and then you want to make sure that it's tools that you can share with others like one of the things that have a problem with rivet as an example you can create an amazing 3d model but it's very hard to share it with the construction team because every user needs to pay 500 to be able to join 360 and it doesn't happen but on the other end if you use archicad and you're getting free access to bmax and i can tell you that as a builder and an architect at the same time i was able to get the entire construction crew actually to open bmax and use it during construction yeah which saved us probably about 10% of free work because they were able to see the finished product. The cabinets was there. The tile was there. The spacing was there. And they were able to zoom and actually play with it because it was playful. So try to find the tools that already trying to cover a few different solutions at once, which is why we are offering what we are offering. And then you are going to be able to create adoption within your team, but also adoption externally. and yes be mean and make sure your team is actually using the tools you selected and that's the hardest thing to do yeah that is that's going to get even more difficult because people have their way of doing things and technology is moving so fast and we're going to have to continue to evolve our firms to keep up with that technology in order to be competitive and efficient. And so there's going to have to be interesting processes to help people move faster in their firms. It'll be very interesting to watch that happen and see how that actually occurs. Yeah, but that's going to what you said. You're reducing jobs, but technically you're really not. It's just there is new jobs getting created. Yeah. Like you didn't need to have an AI analyst in a company before. Now you do. A researcher, you didn't need to have one. Now you do. AI adopter, You didn't need to have one. Now you do. It just become more holistic job titles instead of really, again, point solution. A structural engineer usually was just a structural engineer. Now a structural engineer will be required also to probably visit the job sites, creating on-site services for inspections. It will just need to do more solutions to be able to get paid the same or paid more in many cases. Yeah. Very, very interesting. So let's wrap things up here. I'm going to ask my final question. You've started several businesses. You have a business that you're working on now with Spatial. What would you say is one thing that a small firm architect can do today to build a better business for tomorrow? Stop treating your business as a small business and look at the future. That will be number one. Second is hire people that are smarter than you in many cases. And then third, understand it's a business. It's not a hobby. And many architectural firms are treated or treating their own firm as a hobby because it's creative. It's more about the creation. It's really their passion of life. But at the end, it is a business. So if you want to be able to scale and to grow, treat it as a business from day one. And I'll give you the scenario for us. We are a startup. Startup's supposed to be losing money. That's what's expected from us. It's lose money, raise money. And we took projects from the beginning without lying to people. Hey, we're not ready with automation, but we are business from day one. And that's the way that I approach it. And that's the way that I look at it. And find solution tools as we covered that you can get your team to adapt to and get to efficiency and understand the metrics and the KPIs of the business. So I guess four recommendations. All right. Matt Orr Greenberg is his name. Spatial is the company. Spatial.io if you want to go check them out and you should go check them out. It's pretty amazing what they're doing. And I love the integration of technology and human resources. I think that that's the future. I think that humans ultimately want to work with humans and the technology is going to be the Ironman suit for the engineers and architects. It's going to be a very interesting future that we're going to be living through in the next decade or so. So spatial.io, Maure, thank you very much for coming by here, sharing your story at Entre Architect Podcast. Thank you for having me. And I really hope so that people are going to want to work with people in the future. Thank you so much. Entree Architect is a proud member of the Gable Media Network. It's the multimedia network moving the architecture, engineering, and construction industries forward through the power of storytelling. You can earn AIA continuing education credits by listening to select episodes of this podcast and many others at gablemedia.com slash members. And if you are a small firm architect, listen up. Join us today at Entree Architect Network. It's the worldwide community for entrepreneur architects. We've been around since 2012, and our basic level is now free to join. Yes, you can join Entree Architect Network for free. And that gives you access to valuable business resources and our global community of architects. And you can upgrade anytime for live coaching, AIA-approved training, and mastermind support. So visit entrearchitect.com to learn more and to get started. My name is Mark Arlapage. Thank you for listening to the Entre Architect podcast. Love, learn, share. This is the NCARB podcast, where you get an inside look at licensure, regulation, and the initiative shaping the future of architectural practice. I'm your host, Andy McIntyre, Vice President of Marketing and Communications at NCARB. And this season, we're diving into Pathways to Practice, NCARB's multi-year effort to rethink how architects become licensed. Architecture is the hardware to the software of life, right? It is fundamentally about that interaction and it makes life easier if we have a built environment that works. Across eight episodes, we'll explore how licensure got to where it is today and where it needs to go next. We talk with architects, educators, regulators, and NCARB leaders about education, experience, and the exam, and why each of those pillars is evolving. And that portion of school where you go from conceptual to real is also really challenging. It's not something you're really gently moved into. It's kind of like you're doing something that's flowy and crazy, and all of a sudden, wait, you actually have to make this work. You'll hear how the NCARB competency standard was developed, how research is shaping future licensure models, and what a more flexible, competency-based approach could mean for candidates from a wide range of backgrounds. So we've seen that in our data as the number of reciprocal licenses starts to decrease a little bit, but that number of individuals who are licensed holds steady. We also tackle the big questions. Why does licensure look the way it does today? Where do candidates face the biggest barriers? And how can we expand access? without lowering standards. Not everybody fits into the same mold. And so having different pathways to licensure, I think is really important. Whether you're a licensure candidate, an educator, a firm leader, or a regulator, this season offers clarity, context, and transparency into one of the most important conversations facing the profession. Does this requirement to complete all divisions of the exam place an unfair burden on any one group or other? This is Pathways to Practice, only on the NCARB podcast. Please follow the link in the show notes, subscribe now, and join us as we explore the future of architectural licensure.
