Sen. Shaheen on Russia Sanctions Bill; World Cup Finale

In a world that never stands still, we're there to help you act with conviction. At HSBC, we connect the people, ideas, and capital to unlock growth, backing your ambitions at every stage. So when you're planning for the next generation, strengthening your portfolio, or expanding into new markets, we're there, bringing over 160 years of experience to help you move forward. HSBC. Opening up a world of opportunity. Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, Here's the Thing, I talk to composer Mark Shaman. It's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. And director Morgan Neville. Film school teaches you all the wrong things about making documentary. What do you want to say? Documentary is all about your ear. What do you hear? I feel like my job is listening really, really hard. Listen to Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Leaders with me, Francine Lacqua. I speak to tennis legend Rafa Nadal about how he stayed competitive despite injury. I was able to enjoy the victories probably more than if I will not have this issue. One iconic match. In my mind was, I am almost dead. And whether he misses playing. I don't miss tennis because there was nothing else to offer. Listen and watch Leaders with me, Francine Lacqua, on Bloomberg Television or wherever you get your podcasts. Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts, radio, news. Welcome to the Bloomberg This Weekend podcast with David Gura, Christina Ruffini and Lisa Matteo. Thanks for joining us for today's selection of conversations from the show. You can listen to our favorite discussions right here on the podcast. Also make sure to join us live every Saturday and Sunday morning starting at 7 a.m. Eastern. We're on Bloomberg Television, Radio and the Bloomberg Business App, bringing you unique takes and in-depth interviews on news, politics, lifestyle and culture. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Jean Shaheen. She's the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and co-chair of the bipartisan NATO Observer Group. Senator, thank you so much for being with us. I first want to ask you what your take is on the events. Thank you, sir. We have a bit of a delay. I apologize. I should have known that. The events overnight and the impact on the U.S. force position in the Middle East, both our military and diplomatic installations. Well, I think like all Americans, I offer my deepest condolences to the families of those service members who have been lost. You know, our men and women in the Middle East have performed in an outstanding way, and they will continue to do that. But what we need to do is to bring this war to a close and get the president to get Iran back to the negotiating table. He has not accomplished any of the goals that he set out for the war in the beginning, whether it's getting rid of Iran's nuclear program or changing the regime. We have a more hardline regime in place. We haven't dealt with the enriched uranium that's on site. We haven't destroyed their ballistic missile capability. and furthermore, Iran now is controlling the Strait of Hormuz. And that was never an issue before with respect to their nuclear program. They continue to support proxies across the Middle East. So now is the time to get them back to the table to address these issues because it seems clear that while we are going to degrade their capability to finally address all of these issues, it's not going to be possible just by a bombing campaign. You sit on the Foreign Relations Committee, the Armed Services Committee, and I hear you on your call to get Iran back to the table. But I wonder what route you see for doing that. You mentioned the president's goals here, what they were at the onset of this conflict. They have changed. There's been a plasticity to them over the course of this war so far. I wonder if it's clear to you what their objectives are and, again, how you would get them back to the table. When you say plasticity, I assume you mean they've gone back and forth. Yes. When you say plasticity, what we've seen is that the president announces different goals from day to day. The problem is there hasn't been a strategy for this war. We need a strategy. We need to figure out how we're going to get Iran back to the table so that we can actually negotiate. Unfortunately, the president is the one page, two page memorandum that he announced that was signed by Iran and the United States was open to vast interpretation, and it basically provided Iran everything they wanted, and yet they're still not satisfied. So we've got to have come up with a different strategy, and so far the president hasn't shared that with Congress or the American public, how he's going to do that. I wonder how concerned you are that Iran seems to be employing a different strategy now with its tactics, with attacking these bases. They have different munitions. They're barraging them with cheaper munitions before firing the ones that they can target better. And there's also reporting in the Wall Street Journal that perhaps they are getting targeting information and help from either China or Russia. I'm wondering if you have any insight into that intelligence and what you think about these tactics if you're concerned about an escalation. I don't have any insights beyond what's been publicly reported, but it does go to the point that we need to get Russia back. We need to address their war in Ukraine. We need to continue to degrade their capability. And that's what the Ukrainians are doing. We need to put pressure on Vladimir Putin. Now is the time there is momentum on Ukraine's side. And if we can, if Ukraine can defeat Russia there, then that puts real pressure on them in the Middle East. We need to look at China. One of the things that we have just introduced, reintroduced this week is the Graham-Blumenthal sanctions bill that would target the top users of Russian oil and gas, and China is the number one user. And if we can shut down their ability to access that cheap Russian oil and gas, that has a real impact on them, and it restricts their abilities in the Middle East. Senator, let me ask you about that bill. So there's the debate in the Congress about it and what it should do, but the president has a lot of latitude here were it to be passed. he would choose to implement those tariffs, those secondary tariffs or not. And I'm very curious, sort of as you've been a party to these conversations with the White House, with the U.S. trade representative, your sense of the eagerness or willingness of this administration, the president in particular, to impose those tariffs, if in fact this is made law. We've seen the way that he has operated with regard to Russia in the past, the unwillingness to impose sanctions and tariffs like this previously. Do you think that he's at a point at which he would likely put those tariffs of 100% in place were he given the ability to do so? Well, the momentum, as I said, is on the side of Ukraine. And the fact is, this is a very different bill than the bill that was originally introduced by Senators Graham and Blumenthal. It is much more narrowly crafted. It's aimed at the top five users of Russian oil and gas. It's aimed at the shadow fleet. We've already sanctioned the shadow fleet from Iran, and that's had a real impact on their ability to sell oil. So this would have a real impact on Russia. And what we know right now is that they're losing over 30,000 casualties a month. Their economy has taken a big hit. If we can really put pressure on Vladimir Putin, it's going to have an impact. That's what this bill is designed to do. And what we've seen from, It would be a fitting tribute to Senator Graham to be able to pass this. When we were in Ankara at the NATO summit last week, we heard from the White House that they were supportive of the legislation. The Treasury and the trade representative are both supportive. So this is the opportune time to get this bill passed. We have 62 sponsors in the Senate now, and we're still working on more. So let's get this done and let's put pressure on Vladimir Putin and shut down his war machine. Senator, a little less than an hour ago, the president posted on Truth Social that Republicans should add Iran to that sanctions bill. He says that's what Lindsay wanted to do and was going to happen in Portland. I'm wondering if you had any inkling that the late Senator Graham wanted to expand that bill to include Iran, and if you think the inclusion of sanctions on Iran would either delay or compromise all that support you just mentioned? Well, Senator Graham never raised the concern about it, putting Iranian sanctions on the bill. The fact is we have significant sanctions on Iran. When the war started, we put additional sanctions on Iran. I think if the president wants to do that, let's do it in a separate bill. But this bill is moving. It's, as I said, it's targeted in a way that is important and comes on the heels of the G7 conference where everyone, including President Trump, signed on to a communique that said we need to support Ukraine and put more pressure on Putin. that was echoed at the NATO summit. We know that that's what it's going to take to get Vladimir Putin to the table. So far, we have not been successful at getting him to the negotiating table, and let's put more pressure on him to do that. Senator, we're talking to you in London. As you mentioned, you were in Ankara for the NATO summit a few days ago, and I'm very curious to get your perspective on how Europeans are regarding the United States. I think everyone would say this was at least a relatively successful summit in the context of past NATO summits the president's been a participant in. But we have seen Europeans kind of react or comport themselves differently as the U.S. has begun to kind of disengage with some traditional aspects of their relationship with Europe. How do you see that relationship today? Are you worried about it? What's the path forward as you see it? Well, as you pointed out, the NATO summit was very successful. Not only did we highlight the additional spending on defense. All 32 NATO countries are now at 2% of GDP, which had been an earlier goal. They're working their way up to 5% of GDP. We have a number of countries that I think seven now that are over 3%. And so it was an opportunity both to highlight that and also to highlight the opportunities in our defense industrial base. We know that we're addressing threats from China the Indo-Pacific, from Russia in Europe, from Iran, of course, and North Korea. We know we've got to work together with our allies and partners, and we've got to improve our defense industrial base in a way that allows us to work more collaborative together to do co-production. And we focused on that at the NATO summit in a way that I think was really important. And we didn't hear from our European partners that they were concerned about the United States. What we heard was the importance of all of us working together, cooperating. I'm here in England with a bipartisan delegation from the Congress for the Farnborough Air Show. It's one of the biggest air shows in the world. And the American presence here is bigger than it's ever been in the past. and everyone's talking about how do we work together? How do we continue to innovate to keep America ahead of the competition when it comes to aerospace, which is so important to our future? Senator I assuming you didn get that gift from Erdogan at the NATO summit that some of the other delegates got I think we calling it the Erdogan special But assuming you didn go home with any new weapons I do know that you met with Ukraine President Zelensky while you were there It seems like this is a very pivotal time in that conflict. And there's also some time happening in Kiev right now inside his government. What was your conversation with Zelensky like? And what is your take on what's going on with the leadership of the Defense Department in Ukraine right now? Well, we talked at the NATO summit about what Ukraine successes about their drone production, their innovation when it comes to drones and how critical that's been to the conduct of this war. One of the people who has been very important in helping to change that direction when it comes to drone production and the new way of waging war has been their defense minister Fedorov, who was dismissed by President Zelensky. Now, there are demonstrations. I think President Zelensky has said he's going to listen to what people have to say, and I hope he's going to be responsive to that. I want to ask you about this period that we're in when you look at the Ukraine conflict, this 40-day period that President Zelensky is really emphasizing additional strikes on Russia. We've seen him strike ships in the Strait of Azar as well. How do you view the kind of pivotal nature of this moment in that conflict. And the images that we saw yesterday from the president's Twitter account were really extraordinary, the strikes that Ukraine made on Russia. What does it tell you about the trajectory of the conflict and indeed what Ukraine needs at this point in terms of support? Well, again, there's no doubt that momentum is on Ukraine's side right now. And that's why we need to be thinking about every avenue we can to support Ukraine. We saw tremendous support for Ukraine after the NATO summit, pledging billions of dollars in support. Looking at President Trump, said to President Zelensky, we agree you should be able to produce the Patriot missile and interceptors in Ukraine. That was a big step forward. And thinking about how we put pressure on Russia now and Vladimir Putin is really critical. And that's why this Russia sanctions bill that we have that would sanction their financial entities, their oligarchs, also look at those countries that are benefiting from that cheap Russian oil and gas and shut that down because that shuts down the support for Russia's war machine. And that's what we need to do. Their economy is on the brink. It's teetering. The casualties that they're losing are just unbelievable from America's prospect. When you think about in less than three months, Russia's losing as many people on the battlefield as we lost throughout all of Vietnam. So now is the time for us to take action. And I'm hoping Congress will do this, will get this bill passed and think about all the other ways that we can try and bring Vladimir Putin to the table to end this war. Senator, it does seem that this is at least moving towards a level of pressure that Putin really hasn't felt prior to this. But there is some concern with that, and that is if you corner someone, they're going to react. Are you concerned that a desperate Putin could do something really abhorrent like, you know, the use of tactical nukes and what can the U.S. or its allies do to try to prevent that? Well, I think what Vladimir Putin is doing right now is already abhorrent. And the concern is that if he's successful in Ukraine or even if not, the one place where he could escalate is against a NATO country. And that's why doing everything we can to bring him to the table is critical. Look, he's lost his foothold in South America with Venezuela. He's in danger of losing Cuba. He's lost his foothold in the Middle East, in Syria. Now is the time to add to that pressure to get him to the table. Let me just ask you to look ahead, if you could, at the way in which you're going to get more answers to questions that you have about the administration strategy going forward here. I'm curious what's front of mind for you, what you'd like to learn more about, and if indeed there has been any improvement in the ability of the committees on which you sit, again, Armed Services and Foreign Relations, in getting information about strategy from this administration. Well, not that I'm aware of. We have a hearing before appropriations on Tuesday afternoon where Secretary Hegseth and Secretary Rollins will come in for their supplemental budget request. We have very few details about what they're planning and what that would mean going forward for the war on Iran. We need to see that transparency. The fact is, in order to be successful, Congress and the administration should be working together. And the president and the secretary, Hegseth, have not provided any of those details. Senator, thank you very much. Senator Gene Shaheen of New Hampshire, who sits on the Foreign Relations, Armed Services, and Appropriations Committees, joining us today from London, ahead of the Farm Bureau Air Show. Appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thank you, ma'am. All right, we're going to go now to the latest headlines with Lisa Mateo. You got it, guys. Lettuce recalls tied to a cyclosporosis outbreak. It continues to spread, and now select Walmart locations. They have removed four-bag lettuce salad products manufactured by Taylor Farms. The retailer said they pulled the items which are sold under its market-side store brand as a precaution. Now, there have been no confirmed illnesses tied to those products. Ontario Premier Doug Ford is firing back at the President Trump's criticism of Canada's wildfire response. The President took to Truth Social on Friday, threatening higher tariffs to deal with the cost of, quote, filthy polluted air. Now, Ford called the President's rhetoric unacceptable and suggested dropping lumber tariffs would help clear forests. Forrest said Ontario has 191 active wildfires. Poor air quality not affecting today's World Cup finals when Argentina defends its title against Spain in New Jersey this afternoon. Now Argentina looking for its fourth title and battling Spain, who is going for their second. And the match today is going to be attended by 80,000 spectators, including President Donald Trump. Another 50,000 fans will attend a free watch party on Central Park's Great Lawn. A host committee study shows the World Cup has produced $1.2 billion in direct economic impact during the group stage period. And FIFA, yes, also introducing a star-studded closing ceremony alongside a first-of-its-kind halftime show. For the final, it'll feature Madonna, Shakira, Justin Bieber, and BTS. David and Christina. I'm excited for Shakira. That's what I'm looking for. Perennial presence. I follow the guy who makes her skirts online. They're very, they're very fringy. All right. That's an interesting tidbit. All right. This is going to be a hard pivot on a less fun topic now. All right. As we just talked about with Senator Shaheen, Russia hit Ukraine from the largest ballistic missile barrages so far in the four year old war. Ukrainian President Zelensky says it involved more than 50 missiles and 120 attack drones. And now he's asking for more interceptors and more sanctions on Russia. Comes after Ukraine struck in Russia yesterday. I spoke to President Trump's former deputy secretary of state at the Aspen Security Forum. Steve Beacon told me President Trump truly wants peace, but Vladimir Putin does not share that goal. He sees war as a wasteful exercise. He also sees it as a failure of diplomacy, a failure of negotiation, very much in the context of how President Trump likes to approach global tensions like this. But he's got a bit of the conceit of the negotiator, too, which is that, you know, I think he believes everything is negotiable. In this case, it's just not the case. Putin doesn't want a negotiation. Putin wants Ukraine. And he wants all of it. American presidents, President Trump, and even to a greater extent, President Biden before him, wake up every morning and think, how do I avoid a direct war with Russia? But Vladimir Putin wakes up every morning and thinks, how do I win a war against America? And I think that mismatch is very much on display. No matter how much President Trump wants a peaceful end to this war, Vladimir Putin is not going to give it to him because peace is not his objective. It's a really interesting point. And I think America for decades has failed to understand some of its foes, rationale, the ways of thinking. And Russia especially. We just don't seem to frame ideas and concepts and diplomacy the same way a lot of times. So that gets us in trouble. I was thinking as you were talking just about what a cornered Putin might do, Secretary Began expressing very similar concerns here about the irrationality of somebody backed into a corner in the way in which it seems like President Putin is, at least in small form. 100%. But that's always dangerous. dangerous, you know, power pours a vacuum if he goes, if he ever goes, what replaces him? Yeah. And I should say he echoing what the senator said just a moment ago, that he really feels like this war has changed its trajectory here in recent weeks, that Ukraine does have the upper hand going forward here. Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend, right after this. In a world that never stands still, we're there to help you act with conviction. at HSBC we connect the people ideas and capital to unlock growth backing your ambitions at every stage so when you're planning for the next generation strengthening your portfolio or expanding into new markets we're there bringing over 160 years of experience to help you move forward HSBC opening up a world of opportunity Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like composer Mark Shaman. Once you've established that you have the talent, it's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. We would sit in kibitz for hours and then eventually get around to the music. That's what I mostly think of when I think of him, the time together laughing. Lawyer Robbie Kaplan. The great gift of being a lawyer is the ability to actually change things in our society in a way that very few people can. I mean, you can really make a difference to causes in the United States if you bring the right case at the right time. Marriage equality. Yeah, Windsor's the perfect example. Director Morgan Neville. Film school teaches you all the wrong things about making documentary. What do you want to say? Documentary is all about your ear. What do you hear? I feel like my job is listening really, really hard. Listen to Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. and legendary investors. Whether you own stocks, bonds, real estate, commodities, even crypto, these are discussions you absolutely need to hear. Subscribe to the Masters in Business podcast on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen. After a long, complicated, mostly joyful journey, the 2026 FIFA World Cup is finally here. Spain is going to be taking on Argentina as that team tries to be the first to win back-to-back World Cups, a feat not achieved since Brazil in 1958 and 1962. So to bring this all to a nice close, we let Gura go get a coffee and we invited Bloomberg Business of Sports reporter host Randall Williams on the sofa here with me to help interview our next guest. We have Real Madrid and German national team center back Antonio Rüdiger. Thank you so much for coming in. We really appreciate this. Thank you for coming in. Absolutely. I'm excited. All right, boys, who's going to win this game? Let's ask the professional first. I think that's a tough question. And obviously, because I play in Spain, I'm going for Spain. But it a tough match because Argentina is really really a strong opponent And yeah but still I root for Spain Fair enough So everyone who is analyzing this game say that Spain keeps the ball away They don't allow you to have it. And that's how, you know, ultimately they could beat Argentina. If they score first and then play keep away. From your perspective, what makes Spain a difficult opponent? If you see the way how Spain played the whole tournament, they were always dominant. They played as a team. and they have also great individual quality with Lamin-Yamal. And I think that's a great, they have a great mix, great mix of team. But then you see Argentina, they have Lionel Messi and then they have the soldiers and that makes them very dangerous. How has this World Cup been overall? I mean, I know obviously Germany didn't go as far as I'm sure you would have liked, but you've been here, you've been playing and even watching it, it was very controversial to start, the venue, but it feels like, I mean, people have called it a worldwide sleepover. The fans, the Americans, we've gotten along pretty well. And from a player's perspective, just how was it? No, I find it very, very, very positive because you see a lot of different nations meet together and the main focus is the World Cup and the joy in the people and all the emotions and cultures are meeting together and everyone supports and this is just great. How was your experience just being around the U.S. cities? One of the things that was unique was that you were traveling all throughout, you know, back and forth to the base camp and then out to the matches themselves. What was your experience like as you were traveling and experiencing the different cultures in those cities? For me personally, it was, first of all, we are there for a job, like the traveling, that's part of it. It's a work trip. Yeah. America is a huge country. So that's why we knew that before. Yeah. But just meeting the people around because me, I like to have walks outside and just connect with the people. And yeah, the people have been great. They've been great because normally when you come to the U.S., you think like people will not recognize you or something like this. So you think you have more peace. Not in America, sir. Not at all. It's all super fans. You get recognized on the street. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But the approach, I like the approach. It's very respectful. Really? And this is really something very, very nice. Any favorite moments, favorite interactions? Favorite interactions. Yeah, like, not favorite because they've all been the same. It's more about the approach. The way people speak to you, like very friendly, always pleased and thank you. Like very well educated. Oh, that makes sense. Thanks, fellow Americans. We appreciate that on behalf. You mentioned Messi. You've played, I think, four times in your career. What makes him stand out as a player? Is he worth the hype? Is he really as good as his reputation? Well, I think we are all seeing it. And he's now, I don't want to say anything wrong, but I think he's now 39 years old. He is 39. So then you know that, and he's still delivering on the world stage. So I think we don't need to speak more. Fair enough. I want to go back a couple of weeks when Flo Balogun, the U.S. striker, he was given a red card. Some say that red card shouldn't have been given out, but based on the rules, it should have. And we see President Trump get involved. He asked FIFA to review it. As you were watching all of that unfold, what was your perspective? Well, yeah, it's difficult. It's a difficult topic, especially for the player, for the U.S. team. I think I wouldn't say that is the fault why they got eliminated, but I think that also plays a part. Belgium came out of fire. It had to be a hard head game. Oh, definitely. So, yeah, but I think my personal opinion, he should have stayed out of that game. If you were the coach, would you have played him or would you have kept him out? Well, if I would be the coach of USA, it's the talisman. It's one of the most important players in the squad. No, I would play him. You would play him. All right, all right, all right. You mentioned the age, Messi's age. This World Cup, Bloomberg did an analysis, has more players in their mid and late 30s than any other World Cup. In 2026, 6% of the 48 national team squads were players on or around 40. Eight of the 20 oldest ever players who play in the World Cup match took the field in 2026. He's still a young guy, but career longevity in sports is hard. Is this encouraging? How are people achieving that? And are things, is that something you think about on a day-to-day basis when you're playing is how long you can do this? Absolutely. I'm thinking about it. But first of all, like we all always hoping and praying that we stay healthy. And, but with the amount of games we have, it's not always easy. So that's why like I'm now in my thirties. So I'm 33. So I'm also looking at always sleeping well, doing the right things. Yeah, to be at this highest level because the young guns, they're coming out. There's always new talents. So the competition is huge. So that's why we have to look out for. But as the statistics say, we all men doing a good job. We only have a couple minutes left. And I know you want to get to your foundation because as you look at, maybe not after soccer, but in concurrent with and just life outside of football, what is your foundation and what does it do? And I know you guys have a big event coming up. Yes. As you mentioned, my foundation, I think this is my biggest drive. My biggest drive and that's when I want to leave my legacy, my personal legacy. And my foundation is about young kids in Sierra Leone. And it's about health, education and sports development. And this is why also I have my foundation gala in Washington, D.C. on the 21st of July. We think our tickets got lost in the mail, but we hope it's going to be a good party. It's going to definitely be a good fundraising gala and then a good party. Okay, perfect, perfect. Expansion, good or bad? Bad. Okay, there we go. Thank you so much for coming in. I encourage everyone to go to the website, take a look at the website of the foundation and what you guys are trying to do, and I know you're going to do more of that coming up. Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend, right after this. Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers, like composer Mark Shaman. Once you've established that you have the talent, it's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. We would sit in kibitz for hours and then eventually get around to the music. That's what I mostly think of when I think of him, the time together laughing. The great gift of being a lawyer is the ability to actually change things in our society in a way that very few people can. You can really make a difference to causes in the United States if you bring the right case at the right time. Marriage equality. Yeah, Windsor's the perfect example. Director Morgan Neville. Film school teaches you all the wrong things about making documentary. What do you want to say? Documentary's all about your ear. What do you hear? I feel like my job is listening really, really hard. Listen to Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. smartphone or smart speakers. Subscribe to Bloomberg News Now today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you listen. Welcome back to Bloomberg This Weekend. I'm David Gurra with Christina Ruffini. And dinosaur skeletons have recently become a hot new asset class coveted by the ultra-rich. They're seen as an alternative to traditionally owning a piece of art or sports franchise. But with a market that's not yet stable or regulated, problems tend to occur. Bloomberg Wealth reporter Devin Pendleton for The Big Take investigated the recent failed auction of the dinosaur Shun. Shun was a T-Rex that the auction house Christie's announced in 2022, and it was going to be the first T-Rex ever to go on sale in Asia. This was poised to be a major sale. Shun's auction never went forward. About 10 days before the scheduled auction date, Christie's pulled the sale. There are fewer than 50 known T. rex specimens in the world. So the sudden appearance of Shen out of the blue seeming was a little fishy to a lot of people in the paleontology community, which is small. People know each other. They know the specimens. They know what's coming to market. So this raised some eyebrows. Peter Larson is a commercial paleontologist, and he's sort of a famous figure in the paleontology world. He is a T. rex expert, and he actually led the team that excavated Stan. Larson is a controversial figure. In the 1990s, he served 18 months in federal prison for customs violations related to a fossil discovery. Now, when he saw the announcement, he just instantly felt this jolt of recognition. He knew Shen, or at least he knew Shen's skull. When he discovered Stan, he made cast copies of all of Stan's bones. And that's a big part of his business, is selling these cast copies. He can sell them to museums. He can sell them to private collectors. Basically, he sells these bones so that somebody can have a copy of Stan that's a bone-by-bone reconstruction without actually having the real bones of Stan. Ultimately, Christie's did pull Shen from auction. In a statement, Christie said that when questions are raised about a lot that it cannot answer in a timely fashion, the auction house withdraws the lot for further research. seven pendleton is here with us bloomberg news wealth reporter it is there's so much unpack here um literally and rhetorically there it's shocking to me how big of a market this has become so quickly i remember i first read about this maybe less than a year ago and it seems like it's only gone up uh i was reading in your article uh financier ken griffin spent 44.6 million dollars on a stegosaurus leonardo dicaprio nick cage other celebrities have also gotten into these But when one is purchasing a giant dinosaur skeleton, how do you know if it's authentic or not? What are you looking for? Because it sounds like there are a lot of copies out there potentially. There could be potential copies out there. You want to make sure, of course, what you're buying, what you're spending millions of dollars on is authentic. And so there's a lot of paperwork behind that that you're going to really need to ask for. And by paperwork, you want to know exactly where the dinosaur was found. You want to know the coordinates. and really importantly, you want to see video and photo documentation from the minute a spade was put in the dirt to kind of take this thing out. Because there's funny business that can happen between when the bones come out of the ground and between when they're reconstructed as a specimen that you buy, and you need to be able to track all of it. That's so funny. It's like a provenance for works in the art world, but this time you want to see the whole process of this thing being excavated. Exactly, and provenance is the very word that they use. Really? All right, Well, look at that. I knew a thing. I do want to ask you, where did this market come from? How big is it at this point? And do you expect it to grow? So the market's really old. I mean, this goes back, of course, since dinosaurs were discovered in the Gilded Age. There's great colorful stories about Gilded Age barons kind of fighting over finding dinosaurs and laying claim to finding great dinosaurs and funding digs. So it's not new, but certainly it's taken on new velocity in recent years. you could definitely say i mean even in recent months even um it who knows where it could go i mean this really is sort of worth kind of at the very beginning of this market as sort of a mature like real sort of investable part of the market space where you see auctions houses really getting into it and putting money behind it and muscle and entire shows and auctions dedicated to this space. Like there's a lot of potential. It has a lot of, you know, buyers and sellers, traders, dealers, pretty excited. Is there any kind of regulation? I mean, you talk about commercial fossil brokers in your piece. I didn't know that was a thing. Who was keeping track of where these are coming from, how many of them are? And as you mentioned the piece, like sometimes you can recognize that that's a skull that you've excavated or that you own because they have, you were telling me they have very unique qualities and scars or marks and they can be identified. Certainly, especially if you're talking about the skulls. I mean, especially the T-Rex, right? Yeah, they're very, they're very big and they've had incredibly violent lifestyles. lifestyles. So you're going to see marks from disease. You'll see holes that are signs of healed wounds. You might even see gashes, things that look like bite marks. I mean, you're going to see a lot more trauma there than you would like on a human skeleton. And it's not just knowing that you recognize that skull, but there's just not that many of them because there's so few that are really in so that you could put together to be back in one piece that they're just singular. And they've given them names, too, which really, like, also just, you know, clicks it into your head. Like, oh, that's Stan. I know that skull. We've got about 30 seconds left. But why is this a market? What is so compelling about these remnants from the past? And especially the T-Rex. What is it about these creatures that people are just so drawn to? I mean, it's such a just part of consciousness. Like, since we were little, they're just, they fascinate everybody. There's really nobody who I've come across in the years working on this story that's not like, dang, that's cool. You know, it's just something very primal in us that finds this fascinating. And the T-Rex is amazing. As someone put it to me, it can just eat you in one bite. There's not a lot of things out there that can do that. And they're just cool. I have to say, if I had gobs of disposable income, this might be on my list. You'd buy a dinosaur? If I had a giant foyer and needed something to put in it, like this. I mean, there'd be a giant foyer to those who are watching here in the States. Either way, whatever you're going to call it, I want a stegosaurus in it. All right. Sure. I mean, she's talking about the magnetism of these. If you go to the Natural History Museum here, it is crazy to see them. They're just incredible. But it's also shocking that they can replicate them so well now. You can only tell with a CT scan. Cat scan the bones. Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend, right after this. Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing. I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like composer Mark Shaman. Once you've established that you have the talent, it's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. We would sit in kibitz for hours and then eventually get around to the music. That's what I mostly think of when I think of him, the time together laughing. Lawyer Robbie Kaplan. The great gift of being a lawyer is the ability to actually change things in our society in a way that very few people can. You can really make a difference to causes in the United States if you bring the right case at the right time. Marriage equality. Yeah, Windsor's the perfect example. Director Morgan Neville. Film school teaches you all the wrong things about making documentary. What do you want to say? Documentary's all about your ear. What do you hear? I feel like my job is listening really, really hard. Listen to Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the money in the world of sports every week on the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast. Hello, I'm Randall Williams. Join Michael Barr, Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione, and me as we take you inside the deals, decisions, and innovations that power this multi-billion dollar industry. Plus, we'll speak with executives, athletes, and visionaries that are transforming sports across the globe. Subscribe to the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen. You do the intro. I'm still stacking up my chips. She's still stacking her chips. It's time for Pointed, a special Sunday edition of Pointed. Lisa Mateo off yesterday, back here, of course. We missed you, Lisa. We missed you, Lisa. She's great, but it is nice to see you. Yes, and we would not, you know, it would take a lot of training for somebody besides Lisa to run this game as fairly and efficiently as Lisa runs the game, pointed. Oh, goodness. Of course, our weekly news quiz. Lisa, walk us through how it's played. You were just hoping to not do it. Now it's fair. Now that he's been winning, you're running it fairly. When I was winning, there was controversy about it. I saw it characterized in the trade press as an overwhelming victory for me last week. What trade press text? with your mom? Well, yeah. You know, it's, she freelances for the appointed trade press. My family watches this very closely and my father did congratulate you on your victory. Thank you. Mr. Ruffini, I appreciate that. It's a classy move. Disloyal Ruffinis. No, no, no. No disloyalty in class. They love Gura. Okay, so for those of you who are not loyal and have not heard about Welcome to the show. Here's how it goes. Here's how the game plays out. Okay, so they each have 30 chips in front of them, okay, into three different categories. they will place their bets depending on how confident you feel about each category okay so you're going to place your bets they have whiteboards here they're going to write their answers and reveal them our three categories what are they are you ready for i'm ready okay first is food food okay second is smart homes yeah and third is credit credit cards okay so think about it how do you want to place i don't know much about smart homes you don't that that was my instinct as well. I'm going to double up on credit cards and I'm going to go nothing on smart homes. Christina, what's your strategy? I think I'm going to regret this, but I'm going to do the Rafini split. We're going to do it. Rafini, 10 across the board. Someday that'll collapse. I mean, it has before. It has. Let's see. Let's see how it goes. Alright, we're going for food. Ready? You always do well in the food one. He does. Chipotle rolling its burritos into what country opening its first location there on Thursday? I did see this because I thought it was crazy. Oh, she's excited for this one. I actually have no ideas. Have I mentioned I've been in the field all week? What city? No, we don't care. I don't want to hear about Aspen anymore. Okay, I'm going to go with Japan. Japan? I thought it was Mexico. Mexico is correct. Yes. Because, you know, they're strangers to burritos. I feel like they really need Chipola's. I was like, why, guys? Like Taco Bell tried and it didn't work? There was a reason for that. Yeah, so they're going to try. They're saying their fresh ingredients are going to make a difference. Interesting. Okay, someone from the Southwest. I feel like Mexico knows a thing or two about burritos. Exactly. It would be a hard market to crack into. Literally any gas station makes a better taco than I've ever had in the U.S. So, all right. All right. I guess I need to think more logically. You need to think more logically, because now I have your chips, David Gurra. Yes, Christina's in the lead. Let me see his lead returns. Well, let's see what she knows about smart homes. Smart homes. Let's see how smart you want in smart homes. OpenAI developing a physical manifestation of chat GPT for the home. What kind of device is it? What is the name? What kind of device are they developing? This is OpenAI. I might know this one too. A physical manifestation of chat GPT for the home. What kind of device is it? I love our music. Yeah, I don't know. Oh, we're erasing. He's erasing. Yeah, but I don't know. Last time you erased, it was a bad move. I know. Well, you helped me raise last time, which actually helped me. I wrote a pod, you know, like a pod, like you talk to it, like the home pod. Like you talk to it. Yeah, I wrote the same thing like a speaker like an Alexa. Well, since she wrote speaker, she is correct. Oh, for God's sake. She's called a smart speaker. But you didn't bet anything on that one. That's true. So I don't really care. Okay, so you don't win. I was actually going to defend you. Did you see how I just naturally fought that, even though I had no skin in the game? I was about to defend you, and then I realized you had no chips on it. So I would have argued you got that right. I was rough on you. I'm sorry, David. Okay. All right. I'm gonna continue keeping all my chips over here. But you double stacked so you can... So we have Christina still in the lead. Okay, credit cards. We're moving on to credit cards. I don't mean to point out errors in the control room, but I did see this question flash across the screen a moment ago. Oh, you did? Okay. I didn't read it. I just want to assure everyone I didn't read it. I didn't see it at all. But I wish I had. It was there and then gone, and I thought, God, what an edge I could have gotten. So close, so close. Sometimes they put it in the wall behind us and we're both too dumb to look, and the control room will be like, you know the answer is fine. It's been there. It's been on display. that all the time okay credit cards americans filed a record number of what last year that's the term for petitioning a bank to reverse a credit card transaction so what do you call that when a when uh you petition a bank for to reverse a credit card transaction yeah what is that called and there was a record number of them a record number record number people want to get their money get that money back that's right what do you got you know they're called chargebacks i wrote dispute. Chargebacks it is. Oh, for God's sake. I feel like it's a synonym and fewer characters to boot. Chargebacks. I don't know. My desire to defend you on the one where you've bet a bunch is, he's not totally wrong. It is a dispute. No, but that's not what the answer is. I'm sorry. I feel like she's done a 180. I'm back and I'm ready to go. What's happened in the week between last week and this one? First of all, these are randomly all topics I know about chargebacks because they're really hurting a lot of small makers that I follow complain all the time about them. Like vintage shops or people who sew things will send someone to something and they will pay like $350 for a handmade jacket and then the person will say it was bad and get the chargeback and the person who made it, it's very hard for them to get that money back. Like the actual person because the bank side with the customer and these small makers are getting and they're losing a lot of money. That's not good. I think we need a bonus. Limited time. Public health. Cyclospora belongs to what broader category of pathogen? And it shares the name with a 2019 film. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh, he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got this. I got this. Let's see if you can get your chips back. Bad ones? Parasite. Parasite. Ding, ding. David Gura. Thank you. I don't know how much you get back, but we'll give you all the chips back. Lisa, thank you very much. It's a draw. She redeems herself in the end. Give up Lisa Mateo. Wait a minute. Well, they'd fight this one out, and I relish this win. Where's the review? It's a tie. There's no VAR in Pointed. You can test your knowledge on all 10 questions. Take the Pointed News Quiz at Bloomberg.com slash Pointed. And, of course, it's available on the Bloomberg Business app. Thanks for joining us on today's Bloomberg This Weekend podcast. Don't forget to tune in live for the show every Saturday and Sunday morning starting at 7 a.m. Eastern. We're on Bloomberg Television, Radio, and the Bloomberg Business app. bringing you unique takes and in-depth interviews on news, politics, lifestyle, and culture. Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, Here's the Thing, I talk to composer Mark Shaman. It's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. And director Morgan Neville. Film school teaches you all the wrong things about making documentary. What do you want to say? documentary is all about your ear. What do you hear? I feel like my job is listening really, really hard. Listen to Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join us for Bloomberg Power Players on September 10th in New York. Set against the backdrop of the U.S. Open Tennis Championships, Bloomberg convenes the leaders shaping the future of sports business. From athletes and team owners to commissioners and investors. Hear the market moving conversations driving the multi-trillion dollar sports economy. Register now at BloombergLive.com slash Power Players Radio. That's BloombergLive.com slash Power Players Radio.