Asinology (DONKEYS) with Faith Burden

Oh, hey, it's that classroom desk chair that cracks your back perfectly. This is Allie Ward. This is Allie G's. This is a show in which we cover one Allie G every episode and friends. I know that you loved Onki's already because we truly got like a title wave of questions for this one. And happened to chat with the loveliest Donki expert we could find. This is such a chill conversation and cuddly and calming and informative. It was like sitting on a covered porch with a tea and it'll play a cookie. So you just keep eating while they talked about interesting Donki facts. And this Allie just is the director of research and operational support at the nonprofit, The Donki Sanctuary. And it's been there for over two decades researching, caring for and advocating for Donkies. They're an author on dozens of Donki and Mule research papers as well as having a micro biological background, which we talk about. They were just made for this work and they love it. So we'll meet them in a minute, but thank you first to patrons of the show who make it possible. You too can join for it as little as a dollar a month. And for free, we also have shorter kid-friendly episodes of Allie G's in their own feed. They're called Sm-O-L-O-G-I-E-S, found wherever you get your podcasts. Allie G's merch is available for your body at allieg'smerch.com and you would always support Allie G's by just leaving us a review, which helps so much. It gets a show up in the charts and gets it seen. Each week I kick this off by reading a recent one such as this from Laurie2474 who call Allie G's charming, educational and highly addictive treat yourself to an engaging conversation with experts at a level that doesn't belittle you or leave you lost in jargon. Also, right amount of swearing. I appreciate that and that is affirming. Okay, Ascology comes from the Latin word Asinus. It means ass, which means Donkie. Donkie itself may come from an old word meaning dull brown, but that's been debated. But ass, as in your ass is going to love this episode, came much later and that was derived from the British arse, which came from a word for tale or rump. We do also discuss rumps in this episode and I think you'll appreciate it. So take a long drink of water, settle up for big ears, milky baths, emperor gossip, squats for stonkey kicks. How much weight can a beast of burden bear? Mule genetics, zoo sexism, had a care for a donkey, where to pet a donkey, what their noises mean and heads up, we do have donkey noises in here. So do not be startled. They're happy donkeys as well as what a donkey eats, what's up with those teeth, donkeys on film and busting so much flim flam with researcher, director of research and operational support and nonprofit, the Donkie sanctuary, friend to Donkie's worldwide and asynologist Dr. Faith Vernon. Faith Vernon and she, her. You are all the way in the UK. Yes indeed. Where exactly are donkeys, do you know where they're from from? Yeah, so the donkeys ancestors actually from East Africa. So the mountains and deserts of Ethiopia, Ero Traia, Sudan, so a long, long way away from the UK or the US. How long have they been kind of all over the world at what pointed people started saying donkeys? I get to get some donkeys over here. So donkeys were first domesticated about 7000 years ago, we think in East Africa and they then slowly made their way up to Egypt where they were a really important part of Egyptian ancient society. And from there they gradually spread across the world, particularly helped face by the Romans, but also various explorers. So donkeys made their way to the Americas in about the 15th century. So actually their history with us is quite recent, but it will began in the deserts and mountains of East Africa. So yes, Equus Asynos was domesticated from the wild African ass and it's a stunning creature with this strong jaw, it's got a stout frame and this really beautiful, pewter colored velveteen looking coat. And yes, donkeys have been our friends and tools for millennia, according to researchers of the 2022 paper, the genomic history and global expansion of domestic donkeys in the journal science domesticated in Africa went all around, came back to Africa, but before donkeys made that world tour genetically in ancient Egypt donkeys were originally used for meat milk. And then they started to become a working animal, but very much a well respected ceremonial animal. So you actually can find a number of donkeys skeletons that were buried along very high ranking noble people. So it was a real surprise when they opened up a tomb not long ago that was dedicated, I believe, to a Cyrus. And in one of the King's tombs next door were donkeys skeletons. So in Egypt, the donkey was very much associated with wealth and nobility and was a really respected and revered animal. Okay, so there's at least all of you who want more info on this. So please see the 2024 paper donkeys, genies and demons, fantastical creatures in ancient Egyptian ritual texts and funerary assemblages, which notes that the donkey was depicted in ancient tomb scenes since the old kingdom, which was roughly 5,000 years ago. And it represented an ambivalent creature that could either assist in the nightly journey of the ancient sun god or could be a malevolent force. It could go either way like a cat or something that loves you and then tries to kill you. You mentioned that from the deserts, is that why they have such big ears, like authentic fox kind of? Yeah, absolutely. So the donkey is adapted, its ancestor is a desert dwelling animal. So it has lots and lots of adaptations, particularly the ears, that's what we all notice. So they help not only to dissipate heat, but they're also fantastic for communication over really large expanses because in the ancestors natural environment, donkeys don't live in herds. So unlike horses, where we all know that horses like to gather in herds, the donkey's ancestors live either alone or in very, very small groups. So they need to communicate and that's why the donkey's way is so amazing. Travels for kilometers, but the ears are really important too. We're going to communicate to you more about their communication in a bit. But first let's crunch some numbers. You now have a donkey sanctuary. You are the mother to donkeys, if you will. I'm a mom. Mama Sita. How many donkeys are in your care? So in the donkey's sanctuaries care, we have 6,200 donkeys that are in our ownership. About 4,000 of those are in our direct care and then we've got 2,000 that live out in wonderful guardian homes that look after them in private homes. So we have thousands of donkeys that are all amazing and it's such a privilege to work with them and care for them. Where are their origins typically? Do you take in a lot of working donkeys that are retired or maybe that had been mistreated? I know that donkey welfare is like the cornerstone of your life. That's right. And so where are a lot of your donkeys from? A complete mix. So sadly we still see lots of cases of neglect. So we still take in animals that have been abandoned or have been treated very badly. We also take in animals that have got significant behavioural issues that need rehabilitation, medical issues and sadly we do see the issue of donkeys out living their owners. So donkeys live a very long time. Really? They can live into their thirties and unfortunately sometimes their human carers can't look after them for their life. So we're trying to help people to understand that a donkey's lifetime is long and it's a big commitment. So we sometimes step in in those circumstances but certainly in Europe there are not that many working donkeys anymore. Sometimes in tourism, sometimes in small scale agriculture. But most of the donkeys that come into our sanctuaries at least will have been companions and pets. But it's very different to the work that we do internationally. We're working donkeys. Yeah, what is the difference there? Are there a lot of working donkeys that are maybe not treated fairly or not well kept? I mean the vast majority of donkeys in the world are working animals that live in the global south. So those donkeys are essential to the livelihoods of the people that rely on them. So very commonly found in sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia, parts of central and southern America. And those donkeys will be engaged in all kinds of household activities. And sometimes sadly we do see donkeys that need help. That's often because of a lack of information or very often that the owner and the family are struggling for income themselves. They're living tough lives as well as their donkeys. So it's often about helping provide support and education, helping with basic things like foot care and making sure a car works well for a donkey. But those animals are an absolute lifeline for those families. Okay, just a little recap. Donkeys have been domesticated for around 7,000 years. They are not big party herd animals. And they are a huge part of economies around the world. But right now, donkey theft is an issue. And up to 4.8 million donkeys a year die from harvesting hides to make this prized herbal medicine out of donkey gelatin. And faith and the donkey sanctuary have been working on researching that and supporting legislation to protect these animals. But on a brighter note, you should also know that in some alpine regions when baby lambs can't make it down a mountain into the lowland pastures, the shepherds have donkey nannies or mule nannies. And a mule or a donkey will wear like a pocketed smock. And they'll carry the lambs down the mountain. Like if you had cargo pants stuffed with baby bunnies to get them to safety, it's a beautiful thing. How did you intersect your life with donkeys? Did you have a pet donkey? And then you're like, I'm in love with the donkeys. Because they're so lovable. They are lovable. And I've always loved animals. From the moment I was big enough to understand what they were. But I visited the donkey sanctuary when I was seven. And I fell in love with the donkey sanctuary and their donkeys. But my life then took on a different path. And I never dreamed I'd work with donkeys. But many years passed. And I ended up then spending some time in America in tenor sea of all places working with mules and selling love with them as well. And then in my early mid-twenties, I saw a job. And the rest is history. So that's well over 20 years. Okay. Now say it's been a lifelong addiction to donkeys. I just realized your last name was burden and they are called B.C.A. burden. That must people must talk to you about that all the time. They do. It was obviously a complete coincidence. But yeah, isn't it funny? Bease of burden. And I think it's called nominative determinism. And of course donkeys are really linked with religion as well. So my first name faith is somewhat linked to. But I just think it was destined to be from being that seven-year-old that fell in love with some long years and you know a place of wonder. And yeah, I could never change my name. No, keep it forever. So yes, equids and donkeys have been the animals that humans have relied on for heavy work for thousands of years. And do remember when some folks cite the Bible as fact like in a political context that the Bible does contain a passage about a talking donkey. So setting aside the fact that a donkey started talking from a narrative standpoint though this biblical passage is about the abuse and exploitation of those less fortunate. And God saying to this donkeys owner who's vlogging it like you'll be nicer to that donkey you're being a dick. So yeah, just a casual talking donkey reference but also defending the downtrodden. Who knew that was in there? And so did you ever dream that you would be kind of you know the head of the donkeys? No, no, never, never. But what a wonderful place to find yourself. I'm a scientist by training. I've always been interested in the natural world and how it all works. So the science part of what I do is really important and certainly that was always my main aim was to help people to understand donkeys and what they need from us. Yeah, what kind of science were you studying it? What's your science background? I was a microbiologist and a virologist. So originally my PhD was looking at infectious diseases that were transferred between people and animals. But I got a little bit tired of lab work and white coats and centrifuges became a bit tiresome. So I decided to take some time out and and go and see what donkeys had to offer. And she has a lot to offer donkeys clearly with over 50 published papers including hits such as objective assessment of chronic pain and donkeys using the donkey chronic pain scale and belief and animal sentience and effective owner attitudes are linked to positive working equid welfare across six countries and the welfare and access to veterinary health services of mules working in the mountain trails of Nepal. Also she's got papers about the donkey skin trade. She knows her donkey stuff on a global level and on a make-roll level. And a lot of my early work with the donkey sanctuary was looking at infectious diseases, parasitology, nutrition. So it drew on much of my my background but then really the sort of behavior and welfare science overtook. And as they say the rest is history. Well you mentioned how misunderstood donkeys are. And babe that's why we got you here. Amazing. Let's talk donkey myths because so many people are like I know you're or a shrek but no idea what they're really like or they're just know them as be sub burden. So what's like some big flim flam that you have to bust as a doctor donkey. Donkeys are stubborn or stupid. We've all heard those kicks like a mule or stubborn as a donkey. Donkeys are not stupid. And anyone that thinks donkey stupid has simply been outwitted by them. That's what normally happens. So we always judge donkeys by what we know about horses. We all bought up with western films and horses in battle and they're fast and incredibly expressive animals aren't they? And then we think the donkey is like a small horse with big ears and we can't understand why it doesn't go when we ask it to. We can't understand why it says no. And actually donkeys don't run away from problems. That's part of their evolutionary background. Donkeys will stand and they will consider what's in front of them. So they will think is it in my best interest to run away and I might do that. But more often what happens is they are either frees or they fight. Which again is that whole kind of misconception that donkeys can be quite feisty. They can kick you know. It's absolutely natural behaviour for the species that they are. They're calm, they're thoughtful. And if you wanted to put your most precious cargo on the back of any animal, press it on a donkey or a mule. Because it will be safe. Because they're really, really calm. And think about what they're going to do before they do it. Whereas the horse is you know, it's long up the dusty road before it's realised there's nothing worse running away from. What are you running from? Nothing. So you know donkeys have just been judged by the wrong standards really. Anima afraid what we see you mentioned are you? And you mentioned we've got donkey and shrek and there are lots and lots of other depictions that probably start with the e-sucks fables way back. You might have seen a house fly, maybe even a super fly, but I bet you ain't never seen a donkey fly. And they portrayed donkeys in that stubborn, slow, stupid way or pessimistic at least in the case of you. Not much of a house. Just right for not much of a donkey. And we've all grown up with that haven't we? Yeah, yeah. We've had that since the cartoon books. I'm sure some of your listeners will know the wonky donkey. He was a wonky donkey. Wonky donkey. Wonky donkey. Wonky donkey. Okay. And it's just all of those terrible stereotypes about an ugly donkey that braze and is stupid. And you know, we just set the wrong standards. The Egyptians, knew far better the value of donkeys and the Romans, but sadly we've somehow lost that in our culture. You know, what about their emotions? Are they very affectionate animals or can you read the emotions of a donkey and kind of know what they're feeling? Yeah. So donkeys are really emotional if you know what you're looking for. So we always say that donkeys are very subtle in their behavior very often. And a really good example is that donkeys pair bond very strongly. So a donkey will often have one special companion for its whole life. And unfortunately if one half of the the pair goes, they will grieve about their lost friend. But similarly they can also recognize donkeys that they might have met, you know, years, decades ago. And they can express the joy of being reunited. And there is nothing more wonderful than a joyful donkey brain, you know, really loudly. But also just shame that excitement. But very often in day to day normal times donkeys are quiet, they're, you know, patient and they don't move fast and they don't waste energy. And again, it goes back to their evolutionary background that these are animals living in deserts where the temperatures are, you know, in the forties, you don't waste energy, you don't waste water, and you don't draw attention to yourself. Because otherwise you're going to be somebody's next meal. You know, it's important that we understand they do express themselves, but at the right time and in the way that suits them. Is that brave that you mentioned? You know how for me, I don't have children. So when I hear a baby making noise, I think it's in distress and then I'll look and I'll be like, oh, it's playing. You know, like, yeah, or if it's your own kid, I'm sure some people are like, I know exactly what that means. Can you kind of tell different emotions through the brain? Definitely. So they have a huge spectrum of noises. So, Brae is the one that we know most, but there's also snorts and whiffles. And they can mean different things. So, friends greeting each other. You can tell when two males that don't particularly like each other, meet each other, but also when they're trying to seek affection or food very often. And you can often tell which Brae belongs to which member of the herd. So they're quite individual as well. And certainly are donkey carers that get to know their animals really, really well. You know, they could probably say that's Alfred waiting for his dinner at five o'clock and we're two minutes late. So they are all individuals. But some of them are very noisy and they know how to express themselves. I've seen those videos where I think there's one in particular where a girl comes back to the farm. She's been gone for a bit and a donkey just freaks out. The so happy to see her. Is that kind of common when you feel like you greet donkeys or when you've been away? Donkeys know their primary care is really well and mules to get very attached to certain people. And they will greet an individual and they will get incredibly excited about seeing that individual. It's not every donkey. It's not every relationship. But you do see it and you will also see if an animal has had to be given up by caring owners that then come and visit that animal. You can in certain circumstances see just such emotion on both sides to be back together again. And of course that's all to do with, you know, donkeys are masters of social bonding and behaviour and they are really good at communicating not just with each other but with us if we listen. I've heard that some of them have good senses of humor. Do you ever get tricked by a donkey? And you're like, that was a very good one. Ah, humus, a very sort of human trait isn't it? And we do try not to answer a permorphous eyes, but there are occasions where I think donkey at least enjoys getting a reaction. So I can remember when I first started to really work with donkeys, I used to have a big, heavy jacket for the winter and it had elasticated toggles on the side. And donkeys would really enjoy pulling on the toggle and of course they all got an ouch because those things really hurt when you get stuck with them multiple times in a day. So I think, you know, there are examples that and the donkey that opens the gate to let everybody else out obviously there's an advantage to them, but sometimes you do wonder. They certainly enjoy the reaction that they're getting from us. I think that counts as humor. I feel like when someone's funny, you know, they're smart and clever. So it's just cleverness. Yeah. Reality, I'm actually very fun, relaxed and easy going. You mentioned mules and let us disambiguate because a mule from what I understand, it is a hybrid of a horse and a donkey, but it can't reproduce. So does that mean every mule is just a one-off collaboration? Yeah. Why do some people have mules instead of donkeys? Great question. So mules are the cross of a horse or pony mother and a donkey father. There is another one which people know much less about, which is the hini, where the mother is a donkey and the father is a horse or pony, much less known about, much fewer of them, but still happens. So there is an uneven number of chromosomes between horses and donkeys. So horses have got 64 donkeys have got 62, which means that you get an uneven number, which means the resulting offspring is sterile. So that 99.99% means that a mule or a hini cannot reproduce. So it's a really good question. Why do people have them? Mules possess hybrid figure, both physically and mentally. So they have often increased size and speed as compared to a donkey, but they have the calmness and the toughness of the donkey. So in a mule you've got an animal that can go longer distances is normally very disease resistant tends to carry more in weight than either a donkey or a horse and has a speed between the two. They are also wonderfully intelligent, which is both an amazing trait for human beings, but is also caused some confusion and concern, I think it's the best to say. And mules remember that is the breeding of a male donkey, which is smaller, and a female horse, which is bigger. Mules have been around for at least 4,000 years. In a hini, yes, that's a big old male horse in pregnating a female smaller donkey. So just like you would want a yorky dad and a great-dane mom and not the other way around, that's where we've got a lot of mules and very few hinnies. But the mix of genes and a mule tends to result in a really strong and a trainable animal. So mules definitely need kind and consistent training and handling, otherwise they can be tricky to deal with. But certainly, you know, the west of America was settled on the back of a mule or at least behind it because mules drew the wagons that took settlers across. But you also have mules working in probably some of the toughest environments around the world. So the Nephiles mountains, so much of Everest-based camp, the supplies that go up to the near mountains, they will be carried on mules because they're surefooted, they're tough, they're strong, and they bring that best of both worlds. But you have to treat them fairly, and you have to be really consistent with mules because they don't tend to forgive and forget to be clever animals. So when you say treat them fairly good care and good food and all of that and just respect for the mule. Exactly, respectful that they will work well and hard for their owners, but they need to be properly treated and cared for. And a poorly handled mule is not something for the faint health. That's for sure. And if you're wondering what happens if you are rude or mean to donkey, just know that they can kick with forces over 2,000 pounds and it speeds over 50 miles an hour or 80 kilometers an hour. Also, I was looking up donkey kick trivia and research and most of the search results were fitness related and I was like, oh donkey kicks, okay. It led me down this steep and treacherous path to a 2020 study in the International Journal of Medicine and Health Development, titled quote, effects of six weeks donkey kick and squat resistant exercises on gluteal, adiposity, muscle strength, and muscle bulk of young Nigerian female adults, a randomized controlled trial. And it was authored by doctors from the Department of Medical Rehabilitation at the University of Nigeria. But this paper begins rounded, protruding gluteus have been asserted to be an important feature of feminine beauty and self image. Currently, there is a large influx of gymnasiums to achieve this end as claimed by gym operators amid the dearth of literature to support their claims. Now, the others, they did feel that the setup needed further context, adding quote, the round protruding gluteus signifies beauty, power, poise, and physical strength, especially among young women. The size and shape of the buttocks are important attributes of feminine beauty. Some celebrities, especially in the movie and music industries, have risen to fame owing to their body image. So, I mean good questions. So this group, they recruited 111 females aged 18 to 30. They measured their butts and then they assigned them randomly to a control group, a squats group, and a donkey kick exercise group. And you're like, tell us everything. I mean, I tell you everything. Okay, so they found that significant gain in gluteal muscle was recorded in both the squat and the donkey kick group, clearly not in the control group. However, the squat group found significantly more muscle gains than the DKG or donkey kick group. So more muscle, but also one paragraph shockingly. Any eye write a lot of this seem to contradict so much fitness advice I've heard that you can't spot reduce in terms of adipose tissue. But this 2020 study asserts that both squats and donkey kicks significantly reduced adipose tissue, fat tissue on the buttocks. And quote, this may be attributed to the exercise specific induction of fatty acid oxidation at the gluteal region, which is required to me the energy demand of the exercise. They say this result corroborates with other studies involving high intensity resistance training. Okay, so there's information on your butts. It's your butt. You do whatever works for you. You have that butt look and feel exactly as you want it either way. It's a great butt, but just know scientists are out there unraveling all kinds of mysteries. You know, given your your cell biology background too, do you ever see news reports that come in like trying to crisper a mule that can breathe? Yeah, that's often the thing that's brought up or cloned mules or, you know, can we design this ultimate equid, but actually nature itself is really clever, isn't it? And I think, you know, mules have to be bred because they're wanted and they have a purpose. And I think people that really value mules understand that they can't have enough spring, but they're worth it just for what they have in that hybrid figure. Any major updates on this, you ask, other than on the cloning they did on racing mules a few decades ago, well, there was a 2025 paper in the journal animals and it was titled current and emerging advanced techniques for breeding donkeys and mules. And it kind of reported with a bit of a sigh that despite significant progress in the last decade standardization of protocols for gamy conservation and embryo transfer are still required in long year equids, meaning I don't think anyone's out there doing crisper on mules. I'll let you know though. Also, yeah, we got mules and we got ligers and a liger is a tiger lion hybrid, but the offspring of a male lion and a female tiger also called a tigeris, which seems unnecessary, but there are hybrids from a female lion and a male tiger, and those are called tygons. Oh, so there's another new word and the way to remember those is that the male animal comes first in both of those portmantos. Even though the female grows the thing and it does the birthing, also female ligers and tygons can sometimes reproduce, but the males are always sterile, but it's a sign back to asiness. And when I think of a donkey, I also, I can't help but think of mini donkeys because I've seen them in their tiny and adorable, but when it comes to the size of a donkey, what's going on with mini donkeys? Where did those come from? Are they doing okay? What did you? They're doing great. They're very popular. They are very, very popular at the moment as pets. They are believed to have originally been bred in Sicily and Sardinia in Italy, and particularly for the tiny, tiny little tracks that you find in those rather arid environments. Since then, they've become exceptionally popular pets, and they are wonderful, but they do, if they're not bred carefully and properly, they can suffer from issues associated with trying to breed too small, so they can get dental issues, they can get foot problems, they can have issues giving birth because of the size, but they are cute. And you can get mini mules, so my personal equid is a minute to mule, and he is about the same size as a mini donkey, but of course we can get donkeys, mules, 16 hands, 17 hands, they come in all shapes and sizes. I don't know this, but one hand is four inches, or just over 10 centimeters, and the height of a horse or donkey, it starts at the ground and it goes up to the withers, which is right between its shoulder blades, and yet hands is a unit based on thousands of years of using your hand or man's hand really as a ruler, and that's called anthropic measurement. And it strikes me as so weird that we just use a body part as a measuring tool, but then I remembered I'm five foot five foot feet or 16.25 hands. So yeah, we should all be using the metric system, but America has a lot of problems, so that's low on the list. The mini ones are really fun and loving and all. They're very adorable. When you say your personal equid, do you have one that's like a pet or do you have like 50 that's a pet? How do you do it? So I have two of my very own. One is a pony and one is my minute to mule Monty. So he's been with us for nearly 20 years now, and he was a little bit of a behavioral challenge, shall we say, when we first got him. But yes, he's taught me a lot. That's for sure. Oh, has he kind of calmed and settled in as he's felt more secure? Yeah, he's amazing. He's a great example of mules love one person, and once they trust one person, he'll let me do anything for him, but my husband is a whole different situation. But it is that lifelong connection with donkeys and mules that they become part of a family. And I think that's what's so important when we see how donkeys and mules serve communities, but particularly families all over the world, they are a really important part of that family setup. They might bring the drinking water, they might take the kids to school, they'll help harvest the crops, and they are just such a valued family member. And that works well for the donkeys and for the family. Right. I mean, everyone, you have a dog or a cat, and they're a family member. My dog doesn't even do anything other than spew cute. And that's fine. That's all she needs to do. That's fine. Isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And if she were to come back with groceries, I'd be like, wow, I think better. You know, can I use some listener questions? Please. Yeah. Lofty. Oh my god. Okay. They had one million. But before we ask just a fraction of those one million, let's donate to a charity of Faith's Choice. And this week, it's of course the donkeys sanctuary, which seeks to create a world where every donkey has a good quality of life, and they use world leading expertise and donkey welfare. They design targeted solution to meet the needs of these animals, and they bring together over 400 welfare experts for rescuing donkeys, shaping their behavior, and collaborating with individual owners and communities. They also perform life saving surgical techniques and training of vets globally. And the donkey sanctuary improves the lives of over four million donkeys worldwide every year. So a donation will be going to them and thank you to sponsors of the show for making that donation possible. Okay. So patrons can sign up via patreon.com slash allergies and submit questions before we record. You can join first little as the dollar a month and it supports the show. So let's hear some questions starting with Fernando Lopezaro says hi first. I'm question asker Fernando Lopezaro from Mexico. Bayclan of donkeys. I was wondering when in evolutionary history, did donkeys develop the ability to sweat? And how different is their sweat to hours? Do you know anything about donkeys? Interesting. Donkeys tend to sweat less than other equates. It is something that you see. Now in certain environments, you'll have horses, mules, and donkeys altogether, and donkeys don't tend to sweat anywhere near as much they will, but it tends to be at much higher temperatures. And that is because of their death, their evolution. So they don't tend to trigger that response until much later than most other species. So they preserve their water. Yeah, that makes tons of sense. Luke Sparry asked if you find a lot of donkeys in ancient texts and sounds like yes, you do. Susan said hi, my name is Susan and I live in Seattle and I love your show. My question is that I read donkeys communicate by blowing in each other's noses. Is that true? And if it is true, what kind of information do they communicate? Do you ever see donkeys more on each other's noses? Yeah, so they will definitely blow gently on each other's noses or on a hand that's offered to them. And they also have a reaction that's called the Flemmon reaction, which is where they curl up their top lip. And very often you'll see people posting it as something cute or funny. That's the donkey getting smells into its old factory system. And it's just something that they do to make sure they draw in as much smell as they possibly can. So the sense of smell is really important to donkeys, not least because they're territorial. So they leave markers, scent markers to let others know who they are and what they're up to. And so this Flemmon reaction looks like a donkey is bearing its upper teeth and that word Flemmon means to bear the upper teeth or to look spiteful. But it helps the donkey push sense into the Ramara nasal organ or Jacobson organ to figure out what it is they're smelling and what it all means. And I've mentioned this organ before like in the ethnosanology episode and gastatology episodes about domesticating dogs and the sense of taste. Those are two different episodes. And how I have a 13 year old daughter, Gremlin, who is a dog and she will chatter her teeth, concentrating, whatever she tastes, something new she's trying to figure out. So it's the same things. Sometimes the taste she's trying to figure out is P, her P or another dog's P. And yeah, I let her sleep in my bed next to my face and I try not to think about it. Speaking of their mouths, Olivia Lester wanted to know why do they wiggle lips side to side. And Peter Schei said that they watched a burrow in death Valley take a big bite out of a pineapple cactus chew it up and deftly spit the spines out intact. Are their mouths especially tough? Are they just that talented? Both. They are tough and talented. Really? The answer. So again, there are desert adapted animals that feeds normally on scrubby, thorny, acacia trees, which are really woody, full of thorns. Their nose is, as your other listener asked, why do they move around? They've got really mobile muscles, which is actually there to try and avoid that thorns and and the nasty bits. But they are really good at getting rid of what is not good for them. Because in the desert, they don't have rich picking. So it's not like horses on, you know, wide open plains with lots of grass. Donkeys might have one shrub that they've got to get everything from for that day. So they do have these lovely mobile muscles, which do a great job sorting out soons and nasty bits of things like those cacti. And they don't get cut inside their mouth? Very rarely. They're really, really clever at finding out the bits. And they have an incredibly powerful jaw. If you think about the head of a donkey, it's much bigger in proportion than the head of a horse to the body. And that's because they have a really muscle and heavy jaw to be able to eat woody plants and shrubs, not just grass. So they love grass, don't get me wrong. But a tree or a shrub, that's fine as well for a donkey. That's so cool. Patrons, Lizzie Martinez and Kelsey, fan had donkey mouths on the brain. Speaking of teeth, Emily Schrader wonders, know, what was the evolutionary need for such predominant front teeth? And then they want to preface no judgment. They are cute. Elise Bostick, their child gay wanted to know why do they have teeth like humans? So yeah, they're front little choppers. So they've got those front choppers, those incisors, and they're there to pinch at the grass or the tree or the bush. But also further back, they've got the most amazing molars that grow constantly throughout their lives. And those molars are there to grind up that wood and that grass. So what you can see at the front is only the tip of the iceberg. These guys have got the most amazing dentition at the back. And it does a fabulous job of grinding up those really quite tough plants. So you see the nice smiley bit at the front, but I promise you there's far more going in behind there. Do you ever have to brush donkeys teeth? Very rarely. So they do need dental care. So domesticated donkeys should have their teeth looked at least once a year by a vet or another professional. And because they're domesticated, sometimes they need some help with sharp points that come just through normal grinding. And very, very occasionally they might have a medical reason that they need their teeth brushing. But let me tell you it is not an easy job. Even with mint flavored toothpaste, brushing a donkeys teeth is not something that I would wish on anyone quite honestly. So they're perfectly fine normally. I imagine having to get one of those scrubber brushes that you use for like pots and pans, just a long handle. Best not to. Best not to. Speaking of teeth, a lot of people had a question about an internet video they saw or first time experience. Pam wanted to know they said my neighbor had to sell her donkeys because they were picking up her newborn calves in their mouth and carrying them. Is this normal Heather Crane and Alliwards wanted to know about the internet donkey that bites little goats on the back and carries them around when they get into his pen? Is that normal in nature? This is unfortunately a normal donkey tray and one that is not funny. It's actually really serious when you see those those videos. So donkeys are cute and lovable and we all think that they are gentle. But as I've said, donkeys have quite an adapted fight response. And if something is in their territory that they don't perceive as belonging in their territory, they will try to get rid of that animal. And unfortunately the donkey carrying around the small goat or the lamb or the dog, that isn't funny. That's donkey actually displaying quite aggressive behaviour, normal behaviour I have to say. And that's why my experience would always say do not put smaller animals with donkeys unless you have introduced those animals incredibly carefully. You do see circumstances where donkeys live alongside goats, sheep, but it's often a baby is born so you get a kid goat or you might get a lamb. Donkey doesn't know where that's come from and it may attack the animal. So yeah, what looks cute is actually not I'm afraid. That's not just play behaviour. Not at all. No, that's the donkeys evolutionary fight response. Because we have to remember that wolves in their environment or you know other animals are a threat and are cute domesticated donkey has only had 7,000 years to overcome that and of course they haven't. So we do recommend people are really careful with donkeys and other livestock and pets. Is there a way to introduce another pet or animal like on the other side of a fence and let them get to know each other? Yeah, you can and that's what we would always advise is somebody lets the donkey see the animal frequently and get used to it. Sometimes donkeys will decide that that animal is one of them and that's fine. I would always be careful. I have to say I think if a companion starts to show that they're not quite right maybe they're poorly maybe they've had a you know a funny reaction something I think you've just got to be careful because the donkeys aren't doing anything wrong. And we get lots of calls about donkeys that people don't want anymore because they work you and cuddly and then they attack the neighbor's dog or the new lamb so but the donkeys just doing what nature intended it to do. Donkeys are going to donkeys and you know people do use that trait for human benefits so you will see guard donkeys so guard donkeys are often used in America also in Australia and other parts of the world where they're kept with flocks of sheep or goats and they protect them against wolves and coyotes and predators and that trait then becomes valuable to humans. I feel like people underestimate how smart and fierce a donkey could be. So I could see that being very adventurous almost like a sleeper donkey that you're like oh well I thought I could mess with that. What about play? So we know that picking up another animal is not play but do they like to play games Ashley Mars said it seems like donkeys have a greater need for play than horses. What are their favorite enrichment items and Heather Livingston Canadian gal eating dog hair for a living lillian bat raggy both wanted to know about this. Oh a great question donkeys love to play big dog toys can often be quite popular. They also really love rubber items so things like a bucket made out of old tire rubber that's designed to be you know have feed in it for the donkeys very often that's their favorite toy. Tug of war is a very common game with particularly boy donkeys two boy donkeys. They like balls so old footballs can be very popular. They really like grabbing you know good solid safe items throwing them around they also will very often steal grooming brushes to play with and ropes and things like that. So basically anything that's big enough to get in their mouths but safe and they can also enjoy enrichment so we might provide our donkeys with safe branches from trees or you know items that we've smeared something that smells really good. So they're like quite strong tasting and strong smelling things so actually a lot of the items that you've got around your your barn or your yard are pretty good play items. Just got to change donkeys like novelty leave the same toy in with them for the whole year they won't play with it after a day or two. Really? Swap it in and out and you'll have very happy donkeys. Oh two donkeys playing tag of war I'm sure that you have seen it a lot though. It never gets old I love it and I don't know what they're called in America but we call them wellies, Wellington boots and rubber Wellington boots with no metal pieces the ultimate donkeys toy. So when your boots have got holes in them you can pass them safely onto your donkeys and enjoy watching them. What about baby donkeys are they the cutest things in the world? Melissa Quinn wanted to ask what the flip is up with their weirdly variable gestation period is it a feature or a bug? Your listener is absolutely right it can be anything from 11 months to 13 and sometimes longer. So donkeys jennies just seem to have this ability to hold onto their folds until they're ready and they feel safe so it is widely variable and they give much subtler signs of being ready to have their folds than horses and it's again an evolutionary adaptation so they probably would just hold back until food was more plentiful or until they felt they were safe away from predators but we will often see it when neglected and uncareful donkeys come into our care that are already pregnant that they're wait until they feel safe and secure often longer than we expect you know they've got to feel ready and then in the dead of night the folds born and there is nothing cuter than a donkey fold they are gorgeous they're kind of gangly right they're tall they're gangly they're very fluffy that's always the surprise of donkey folds is how deep their fur is and how lively they are as well so donkey folds are just full of stuff and nonsense and love curing around donkey mums tend to be quite calm and patient but yeah donkey folds are just a delight it can't get anything better we had a few people Jill Burnham William Russell Hannah Katsuriano Hudson and Charlie W first time question asked Charlie asked I've heard that donkey milk is similar to human milk and might be good for lactose intolerant people a lot of people wanted to know why is their milk like humans and we did a cheese episode recently where we talked a little bit about donkey cheese have you ever had donkey milk what is what's going on there I haven't had donkey milk for some good reason so donkey milk is biochemical profile is similar to human milk and probably more similar to human milk than other mammals there's been a long history of people believing that donkey milk was both good to drink but also to bathe in so clear patra bathe didn't ask his milk just to heads up the history does get cloudy here but it's fun it's horrifying it's fun so yeah clear patra was said to have bathed in donkey milk and washed her face with it but other history nerds assert that a later royal nero's wife papaya was the one who was known for this milk ritual honestly this woman a Duncan ass milk was like the least salacious thing about her life because this wife of nero she reportedly cheated on one husband with the roman emperor nero who had killed his mother for the throne and who executed his former wife who was also his step sister and then later killed his son with papaya while they were on a fishing trip and papaya herself may have died at her own husband's hand and by that I mean foot because he allegedly kicked her in the stomach to death so I was like just trying to look up donkey milk baths and being like what the fuck is happening here people like horrifying emperors but still why the donkey milk and turns out the reason why people with money smeared donkey butter on themselves is kind of simple drugstore chemistry so let's have a look at the 2015 paper epidermal permeability barrier in the treatment of caratosis polaris which notes that the efficacy for lactic acid and helping exfoliate and replenish skin is known so like if you've ever gotten like little bumps on the back of your arms or just in general on your body lactic acid can help that and we learned that lactic acid in our recent microbiome episode is formed when milk sours or ferments the lactose turns into lactic acid but if you don't have a donkey and an empire you just go get yourself some moisturizer with lactic acid in it to make sure that your skin bumps go away and you keep things fresh so we've got long history of donkey milk but many of the donkeys that produce donkey milk don't have the best life so donkey mothers tend to only produce a very small amount of milk and that milk is very very highly prized and very expensive but donkey milk production systems not all of them but some of them are not welfare minded and donkey cheese again is quite a sort of popular thing but it takes so many litres of donkey milk to make a tiny amount of cheese so that's a lot of folds that are not getting to suckle from their mum to make that cheese you know it has scientific basis and we know that the infants hospital in Paris in the 1800s used to have donkey gennies alongside to feed small babies that couldn't feed from their mum so there's long history there's good science but welfare is not always at the heart of the industry there are some good small producers that we've worked with to try and improve their practices but where there's a profit to be made often animal welfare isn't the primary importance I didn't necessarily want to eat donkey cheese but now I actively don't want to eat donkey cheese so that works out well for me I think good you've mentioned newborns and I've seen this thing where they have a fairy feet they have what looks like um blubbery fingers on the ends of their feet and it is cute and ghoulish but can you tell me a little bit about that and a little bit about their hooves it does look something like Halloween doesn't it so the fairy feet are there at birth they very quickly go but that's an adaptation to make sure that the genny isn't hurt during birth so it's a soft covering of the donkey folds otherwise quite solid feet that could do a lot of damage but they do look quite ghoulish um donkey feet apart from those first few hours after birth are amazing so they again are highly adapted to the environment that they come from so very tough very rarely need shoes putting on unlike courses but they are adapted to dry conditions so when we see donkey's kept in temperate climates and where you know it's damp underfoot they get lots and lots of medical problems from being in that environment so that's one of the biggest issues that we face with donkeys around the world is weather and underfoot issues that cause lameness and major hoof problems do they tend to get infected or are there hooves wetter than they kind of would be otherwise and so they're they're more porous or something they most certainly are so we always describe donkey feet like sponges so if you look under a microscope at a horses hoof material versus a donkeys the donkeys is much more open we'll soak up much more water which is great when you're in the desert because you need to soak up whatever droplets of water are available but if you're a donkey living in the southwest of England where I am we have lots of rain if you not careful those feet can get waterlogged and that leads to infections so you get soft crumbly feet you get nasty bacterial and fungal infections so top tip for donkey owners is please please make sure your donkeys get some dry standing somewhere every day areas that have got low rainfall are brilliant for donkeys but anywhere that gets lots of rainfall particularly if it's warm as well that's donkeys for nightmare time I'm afraid a few people asked about that um Keegan Newman wanted to know do donkeys are mules ever benefit from horseshoes this question was a foot among patrons mini mini Katie Seeger and Stephanie they all wanted to know huff stuff can you put a welley on their foot does that ever happen so some donkeys meals are shot and they can benefit from it in certain conditions I would say most donkeys do not need cheese and it's just going to cause more problems than it solves some mules that are working in particularly tough environments or that are going on roads a lot can really benefit from shoes but again most mules will do just fine without putting a man-made metal shoe on their foot that they don't really need but us humans are great at thinking we can improve on nature aren't we yes and actually they're pretty good well um Shavani Rahan Hetshell said there were a horse girl growing up and always wondered why mules seem to have very upright feet compared to horses and Stephanie asked is it true that donkeys can see all four of their hooves at the same time and horses can't and many of me also want to know is that why they're so sure footed Katie Seeger also volunteers at a sanctuary where there are mules and donkeys amazing right and asked about her feet shoes too but do they have a really different structure is that why they're more sure footed yeah so what brilliant questions from your listeners so the donkey and biver to the mule has a much more upright hoof so as your listener said they're much more boxy we often say and they're much smaller much more compact again we go back to the evolution the donkey has adapted to live in mountainous terrains with tiny little tracks so big feet like you might find on a Clydesdale or on a thoroughbred are not going to help you you're going to go over the side of the cliff if you're not careful so donkeys have a very narrow chest you'll notice that they don't have big muscles like horses and they have very close front feet and buck feet and that means that they can pick their way very carefully along really steep treacherous mountain tracks with their tiny upright feet so this means that as opposed to horses donkeys have kind of taller hooves with less of an angle at the bottom than a horse does so imagine like a horse's hoof is a wedge heel and a donkeys is like a point shoe if you like exaggerated analogies that's as good as I've got for you and they're not going to endangue to themselves by going over the side that does mean that they're not as fast as their horse cousins because they're different but they're perfectly adapted for the place that they are when you think about the Grand Canyon why do we think most of the equids working in the Grand Canyon are mules it's because they're short-footed so that ability to adapt and cope with really quite dangerous environments is innate to donkeys and by virtue mules so those little boxy feet are just designed for where they are supposed to live and if you're wondering how much burden these beautiful beasts can handle I was also wondering that and it depends on how big they are and also who you ask and according to a 2022 paper the welfare concerns for mounted load carrying by working donkeys in Pakistan in the journal frontiers of veterinary science there's little research they say regarding mounted load carrying limitations of working donkeys but larger donkeys can carry what handlers tend to say is about 28% of their body weight or around a hundred pounds but some research out of India says that they can carry up to 50% of their body weight and in some heavy labor conditions like in masonry donkeys have been noted to carry nearly 120% of their body weight but the study knows that donkeys loaded at more than 50% body weight were more likely to splay out when they lie down which is a sign of back issues which is not shocking considering that they're carrying more than their body weight and like bricks but horses on the other hand which are larger obviously they can safely carry 15 to 25% of their body weight so much less and mules remember the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse can carry up to 30% of their body weight so they are stronger than horses so patron to particular Joe asked are donkeys happy to carry our stuff for us on a hike and if so how much is too much and honeybee also asked about donkey rides and krisa may said under what conditions should pack donkeys be freed from traversing trails like the grand canyon is that humane work or should humans hoof that trail unated how do you feel about donkey or mule tours riding a donkey for some reason i see that and i think i don't know how well they're treated i don't think i could do it is it kind of a bit of a racket there can be some good ones okay i think we have to be really clear that there are some operators and particularly small operators that do a great job we have to think that a donkey or a horse actually is adapted to travel maybe 20 kilometers a day in their natural environment they would be exercising they would be seeing novel situations and they would be you know experiencing lots of changes of environment when we domesticate them we take that away from the most of the time and good work where the animals welfare is absolutely critical can be at least neutral not bad for the animal it can imitate some of what they would have in their natural environment however but again when profit becomes the primary focus sometimes animal welfare is forgotten but if you are thinking about going on these tours or these rides have a look at the animal yourself are there signs of infection are there saws or rubs how does the person running those rides interact with their animals are they kind are they gentle how do they talk about them do they have a name is it an it or is it Jerry or Romeo or whoever ask those simple questions and if you're not sure don't do it so yes your actual mileage may vary depending on the outfitter but for the love of donkeys do some research now if a mule or donkey has been neglected or retired do you think it could be up for the job of your best friend you know last listen a question a lot of folks Dave Dwellie wanted to know if someone's daughter was able to have a rescue donkey what environment would be most comfortable for that donkey would two or three rescue donkeys be happier together and Kelsey fan wanted to know what are some financial obligations to donkey ownership Lauren Robinson Peyton Nill Mandel Viscousey and Rosa wanted to know give us some tips on donkey care I know you could write a like an actual encyclopedia and this is what you do but if someone were to rescue a donkey or has a donkey or is getting one for a homestead what do you want them to know okay most important thing is do not have a donkey on its own so that one donkey make sure it's got buddy donkeys love the company of other donkeys and undenots arrive unless they've got companionship so that's number one number two is some kind of shelter so donkeys can't just be left out on a pasture and forgotten about they need a barn a simple shelter so that if it rains or it's really cold and windy they can get out of those conditions and they need dry under their feet so they need somewhere that it's not going to be wet and muddy that they can get out of again poor weather donkeys do not need to eat rich feeds so many of the problems that we see where donkeys are pets and companions they're overfed so they're given sweet feeds they're given high energy feeds made for horses or cattle donkeys do very well on low quality fibers like straw and get to know your donkey so most importantly after you've given them all of those things the one thing that they will thank you for more than anything is spending time with them my heart you know get to know them brush them train them take them out for walks you see lots people going out for walks are their donkeys and get to know their personality because if they're not well or something is wrong it's that knowledge of them as an individual that will let you know and so often it's a tiny tiny change in their behavior that will say I'm not very well or something's going on so time shelter not too much of the sweet stuff a good companion and lots of love and then hopefully you've got a happy and healthy donkey but there's lots of resources out there and the donkeys actually has tons on our website so if people want to know more about how to look after donkeys have a look and we can help you so that's the donkeys sanctuary.org.uk and it's linked in the show notes final thing finances donkeys are not cheap so you need to make sure you've got those yearly vaccines you've got to do the yearly dentistry feet need trimming every eight weeks they might get sick they might need extra food and they are probably going to live at least into their mid 20s if not 30s so it's a long-term commitment they're the most rewarding animals to have in your lives but it's a big commitment so make sure you're ready and then have a fantastic time with them a word of advice or is there something that is the hardest part about your job or working with donkeys I imagine fundraising has got to be probably harder than actually going out and checking on the donkeys right but is there something about the work that is the hardest it's getting people to say goodbye at the right time and the end of any animals life is difficult for their human carers but donkeys are part of the family and they're you know they're tough and often they are stoic so they will continue on with terrible problems with their feet and their teeth or a working animal that's really valuable to its family and is part of that family but there comes a time when we have to say goodbye sometimes and with donkeys because they live so long and we get so attached to them and they're so quiet about their suffering I think that is the hardest thing that I have to deal with is seeing animals that need to be let go but then also seeing how devastated owners are but we love our animals and it's the the last great goodbye that we can give them so that's the hardest part fundraising is always tough you know there are so many competing organizations and donkeys are associated with you know very often either something funny or some of the poorest people in the world but I always like to think if we help donkeys we're helping people too which makes it just so fantastic so and what about the like best part of your day or like the best part of donkeys is there a part that you're just like I love this every day probably any time that I get to step away from budgets and you know managing people and actually get to go and spend time with donkeys whether it's here on one of our sanctuary sites in England or if it's in Ethiopia or India just getting that quiet moment with donkeys is is a such a privilege and also seeing a when you make a difference to an animal how it's life terms round but also if you can help that donkeys family as well it's just it's such such a wonderful feeding so but there's nothing better than a donkey blowing gently on the back of your hand saying I'm here could you come and scratch my ear please um they're just so gentle and I think that's the best bit is is working with just such charismatic animals I think it's funny people listening are probably like currently googling like with your closest donkeys sanctuary to go visit go pet a donkey go visit go and support them go and learn more and then it will become a life long so ask astounding people yes ask nine questions because their brains are as big as their hearts and thank you again to dr. Faith burden for all the work you do with the donkey sanctuary and I hope this inspires you to your listener to visit an animal sanctuary near you give a donkey a pet at least a wink we will link to the donkey sanctuary social media handles and the show notes and for more studies you can look on our website at alliword.com slash allegis slash asynology we also have shorter kid friendly versions of allegis every week for free they're called smallegis smologis ies and you could subscribe to them in their own feed wherever you get podcasts tell your friends we are at allegis on blue sky in instagram I'm alliword with one l on both allegis merges available at allegismerch.com and to support the show you can also join our patreon at patreon.com slash allegis huge huge happy birthday this past week to my forever friend and the admin of the allegis podcast facebook group you know her air and talbert avalan malik makes our professional transcripts kelly our dweyer does the website leading us down our rocky path is scheduling producer noel delworth managing director is Susan hail who handles everything from masonry to baby lambs and splitting the heavy load of editing each week our jake chafi and lead editor mercedes mateland of mateland audio nick thorburn braid theme music nifty stick around to the very end of the show you know i may burden you with a secret from my life in this week it's that i started reading your pod mother jaret's favorite book which is this fantasy action series called heroes die because i wanted to be familiar with these characters and lore that he read a long time ago they're in his brain and like the first few pages are brutal i was like what is this and then i was like oh okay they're like setting up a character like this for a reason got it anyway towards through the whole thing loved it very underrated fantasy sci-fi book heroes died by math used over and also it's just cute to know that these are characters that like live in his brain but also he started reading a favorite book of mine i've always loved called my side of the mountain which is about this little kid who runs off to the woods to live alone and it's set in the 60s which is i guess like why his parents didn't get arrested for child neglect but anyway if you have friends or family members maybe ask what their favorite book is or start a little book club where you take turns reading each other's favorite comfort book it's just kind of a nice thing to do and it helps you get to know the people that you already know even better okay organized locally like ice stay strong love each other bye