Madison Cunningham

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Nora Jones channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Nora Jones and today I'm playing along with Madison Cunningham. Hey, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us. I'm here with Sarah Oda. Hello, hello. Welcome to our show. We have an awesome episode today. We have the Grammy winning singer, songwriter, guitarist and pianist, Madison Cunningham. She has collaborated with tons of people, including Lucy Dakus, Remy Wolf, Mumford and Sons, Lucius and Andrew Bird, a lot of our podcast homies. She's an incredible songwriter. Her lyrics are very emotionally sharp and she's a real storyteller. I love her music. It is something about it. It's just like arresting and it's very, very beautiful and heartfelt. But also she's an incredible musician and it's complicated. So it's all the things wrapped up into a perfect vessel. Her voice is incredible too. So beautiful. Yeah, you're going to hear her beautiful voice. You're going to hear kind of how she became such a poignant lyricist and also some of the musicians and artists that inspired her along the way. And yes, amazing music as always from across Madison's catalog, including her latest album, Ace, that came out last year in 2025. Very beautiful album. Yeah. Come join us with Madison Cunningham. There is some spicy language in this episode, so listen, her discretion is advised. It's not that bad, but just so you know, it's there. OK, OK. My head is full of thunder clouds Keeping aircraft on the ground Who will win this lightning round of suffering? Turning in and turning out The lightning of our deepest doubts In the California drought We're drowning I have fallen In your wake In your image of my prayerickenickenickenickenicken I've lost the audience for good now As the grand illusion fades It hits me as I drive away I'll never see your hair go gray I have fun All alone In your way In your image of my brain I'm lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I've lost I started taking piano lessons first and my piano teacher was very quickly caught on to the fact that I couldn't read music and she was trying to teach me and I couldn't...it never stuck so she was like... Is it because your mind was too fast with the music part and you already kind of knew what you wanted to hear by ear? I think it must have been that. I could replicate what I heard pretty quickly by just memory and I think she was like, let's just focus on ear training and I do regret not having learned or I wish that that would have kind of settled into... Do you really? I had a little bit. Really? Really? It hasn't really come up, I guess, but like it was... Exactly, and it's not gonna... It's like math, it's like...I really needed that. But yeah, anyway, that was kind of where the love for it started. That's cool. When did you start playing piano? I was seven, I started taking lessons. Okay, wow. I didn't want to practice though, so I wanted to quit. Yeah, did you hate it? You must have hated it. My teacher was really nice. I wanted to take lessons. I wanted to play piano. My teacher was great. I mean, it was just the classical programs and I didn't really vibe with my brain, I guess. And then I quit after five years because my mom said I could after five years. Wow. Only after five years, so I quit. And then about a year later, I got into jazz and that worked with my brain. Were you reading? How were you ingesting it? I was just listening to it and then I had this great teacher... I started playing saxophone and then my saxophone teacher turned me on to this great teacher in Dallas named Julie Bonk who taught me how to read chord changes. And she encouraged me to write even though I was a little shy with that. But she taught me how to outline chords instead of reading like staff paper, you know, just chords. She was like teaching you the sketches of learning how to write songs. She really was. And yeah, she was cool. I mean, she's still around, but yeah, sometimes you just need another way in, you know. Yeah, right. Like the... I was actually homeschooled and I feel like I used this parallel, like the whole way through. Never stepped foot in the classroom, but... I have so many questions. Man, I'm open. You can ask me anything. It's all I know and so I don't have a lot to compare it to, but I feel like every kid needs to learn differently. And the beauty of being homeschooled was I think my mom was my teacher. She was able to kind of curate the curriculum for what worked with my brain. And I think that's how music's always been too. I grew up kind of thinking like I was slow or something, not because my family made me feel that way, but because I was like, oh, the way that people learn, I'm not learning that way. It's different. Yeah, it's different. You realized that later? Realized it later. Yeah, in the moment, I don't think I had language for it. I just know that I enjoy this and I want to throw out all of the rule books that come with it. And yeah, I think I love that music is that. It's like any one of us can find our own entry point into it and it's almost, it's the most necessary also if you're writing songs to find your... Yeah, throw the rule book out. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's almost not worth learning the rules. Yeah, it's not. Well, it's not because you don't want to follow a formula. Yeah. And I think what's so magical about your music is that it's... I felt kind of transformed when I was listening to all these songs. I mean, it's just your way of writing. It does... I was going to ask you how you got so good with lyrics. You know, like, are you into poetry or maybe it's just the way things form in your brain with your background. And like, it's just so beautiful, these words, everything. Thank you. Yeah, your writing is amazing. So, lyrics are the thing I'm the most insecure about. Really? Do you work a lot at them? I work very hard at them. This last record was such a weird... It was kind of the exception to the rule. Like, usually I take a year to write a record and this one was written basically within the lifespan of like two months. And it was just... I think it was the first time I ever really experienced heartbreak. And so everything was really clarified. Heart and fast, right? Whenever you're feeling it. Yeah, exactly. And what was so scary was leading up to that. I was feeling all of it and had no way to articulate myself. And it felt like a trap and I like lost the power of language. And I felt really distant from music and just distant from myself, the whole thing, you know? But these lyrics were like... I definitely edited them and really cared about it. But I just... I felt like it was the more that I messed with it, the more it put up a fight with being messed with. And usually I've found that it's like... For the better when I've really sat and toiled with lyrics and editing. And it also almost come from like... Because I was homeschooled, I have a stigma about just naturally not being good with words. Really? It's very silly, but it's something... Because you're so good with words. Maybe it's just a way... Maybe it's been my way out or my way of finding my footing or value in myself. And I'm always like, again, very unsure that I'm being understood or that they're good. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I think we all kind of feel like that. But that's interesting because your lyrics are pretty jaw-dropping to me. I just find them really... They're so poetic that you think... Or I think coming from this as a listener, I think, wow, she must really work at these. But at the same time, they're so heartfelt and it doesn't feel like they're overworked. Does that make sense? That makes that biggest compliment. Which is a really nice place to be. Because when things just come out, I feel like it's the most emotional. You really just want to capture the emotion, right? Right. There's such a fine line between it coming out as your first attempt at a thought, performing a thought. And then you don't want it to ever feel like you're being a scholar at someone. Yeah, exactly. You don't want to feel like you've made it perfect, but there's no emotion in it. Yes, exactly. There's no heart. Someone... I bet you get this asked this question a lot, but someone recently was like, How do you know when a song is finished? And I've always just had the worst answers for that. And just recently, I feel like the answer that I actually get behind and is the most true for me is like, I don't know when a song is finished. I just know if it's alive or if it has something that will continue to percolate and need to be said as the years go on. That's beautiful. And that's the thing. As long as the conversation feels like it's fluid and alive, even if it's a little bit clumsy and even if it's a little bit like elementary, it's worth saying. It's a sketch that you can tell what it is and you can show it to people. It's language. It's like the thing that communicates what is happening in your heart space to strangers and to people that you love. And that's all we got. Yeah, that's beautiful. You're coming at it from the right place. We're trying. The motives get skewed, but we try. I know. It's beautiful. Man, you're so good with lyrics, too. Oh, I appreciate that. That's your thing. I came to it much later and I've always felt kind of not good at it as well. But the last five or 10 years, I feel like I've kind of hit a stride where I'm proud of the songs from the last like 10 years from a songwriting perspective. And I'm happy about that. But I also feel like I'm a little bit opposite where I'm really excited when I feel like a song is done and I just like, I don't want to mess with it anymore. Totally. Yeah, there's no, yeah, you know when it's like, but also, do you ever rewrite songs from stage? And by that, I mean like after the recorded and you get to tour them, do you ever go, oh, that was silly? Like I really wish I would have done. Why don't I just correct it now? There's a few lyrics that I have done that too. Yeah. I think it's maybe one or two where I just, the old lyrics make me cringe. Yes. And then there's one or two where the situation was very specific and I just want to rewrite that story a little bit. Yes, right. You know. Yeah, is it usually in the songs or the ones that make you cringe? Is it usually the songs that people really want to hear? No, luckily. Luckily, but it is, it's just older songs that I think were written before I really found my stride as a songwriter. Yeah. Before I learned that putting my heart out is okay. And I would try to take all the use and me's out and like clean it up from the casual thing, but really the you and me is what it's about. One time. So when I would clean it up, it would just kind of fall flat, you know. What did you think wasn't okay or acceptable and to put in a song? Like what felt too bare to you? Was it just that, using me's or was it? I think it was more like just cliches. Yeah. And now I realize that cliches, if you mean them are, they go right to people's hearts and it's like that's what it's about. It's the same reason that like I will want a steak for the rest of my life. A steak? A steak. It's a classic. It's a classic. Exactly. It's a cliche, but it's like, it is for a reason. It is. And like cliches are so important and I think the best songwriters are the ones who recognize that and go, how do I just reframe it? How do I redish it, replay it? Yeah, like I'm never looking for a cliche, but if something comes out and it happens to be pretty simple and like universal and maybe used before, maybe in a different way. But I'm like, I'm fine with it. Are you a Friends fan? Yeah. The classic sitcom? Heck yeah. Do you remember the episode where, oh my God, I'm forgetting his name. He's like the dumb one. Joey. Joey, he writes this letter of recommendation or something or like a birthday card or something. He's like tasked with writing this letter and he goes to the thesaurus and punches in every single word and it's just like this unreadable letter with these insane words. I feel like the more profound that we try to be, we sound like that. Yeah. Totally. The less that we try. It's all about just making the veil as thin as possible. Yeah. And that's the key to I think, relatability obviously, but also like true poetry. Connection. And connection. Yeah. And that we always think that we have to find the craziest ingredients, you know, to make it worth somebody's time. And that's usually the thing that people, they don't really have time to listen to. It's too rich. I think they can see through it. I think I give them, you got to give them a lot more credit. We have to. Yeah. I know. Why do we, why do we make our audiences so dumb in our minds? I don't think we do. I think we're, I think we, I think we're doing it the right way. Yeah. You just try to be, you just try to be vulnerable and hope that people can latch on to something. Maybe it's like the people around, the people who like talk about music so much. Yeah. People in the industry that go like, let's dumb it down. Let's, let's prepare a meal, a happy meal for the people. And a steak. And yeah, I want a fucking steak and I want you to make it really well. Sometimes I do want a happy meal. No shade. I want a burger. Are you kidding? Oh yeah. With the toy. Exactly. Absolutely. Not above anything. Oh, this is already so fun. This is the best day I've had in a long time. Yeah. Where do you live? I live in Frogtown. What is that? Frogtown. Is that here? That's so fair. Yeah, it's here. Okay. Backed up to the Los Angeles river. Oh cool. And it's on the bike path. Okay. Actually most people in LA, when I, when I say that name, they're like, I don't know what you're talking about. Is it an old, did you grow up here? No, I grew up in Orange County, which is, you know, 45 minutes south from here. Okay. But we, it's such, to such different worlds and cultures that like, I have to clarify. I have to clarify. Yeah. I would love to claim Los Angeles, but it's, yeah, it's, it's Orange County. And so Frogtown is like this little island of Silver Lake, I would describe it. And it used to be back in the 40s, 50s, infested with frogs. So it got dubbed that name and the frogs are no longer there, which is kind of sad. Oh, I know. They got Magnolid. Yeah. They migrated. They croaked, so to speak. Oh boy. Yeah. Well, do you want to do another song from your new record, which is so beautiful. Thank you. I really love it. Thank you so much. Congratulations. It's, it just came out a few days ago, right? Yeah, it did. It did. Yeah. Yeah. It was a great song and you play a lot of piano on it. Yeah. And I love your piano playing. Thank you. That means a lot coming from me. I, I, I kind of just, it was just out of interest and, and love. It wasn't meant to be like a statement. Really? It just felt like it was the right sound and shape for the music and. Is that how you wrote the song? Some of them, I mean, some of them, my full name, the one we're about to play was written on guitar first. Oh, wow. That's interesting. You changed. Yeah. Well, what I was doing when writing those songs, there was a lot of just like me testing the strength of the song. And I'd be like kind of switching instruments is really helpful to be like, oh yeah, this, this still stands without like the branding of an instrument or that, because I've, that has been the travel. I've found myself in, which is being like, oh, I'm a, I'm a guitar player. So then I write riffs, right? And I very quickly like this record was never going to be a riffs record. There was no, there was no room for it. But I was also growing out of the, I was changing anyway. So, but piano felt like this interesting like way forward and it's still, it's just, it's fun to me. That's like one of the first instruments I started on. And it's just, you know what it's like. It's just a beautiful fluid instrument that like has everything's laid out for you. Yeah, it's different. Which is so nice. But I think it's fun to switch. And it's important. It's really fun. I love playing guitar. I'm not great, but it's, it's like, I didn't know you played. Yeah. I mean, I write more on guitar. I feel like it opened up writing for me in my early twenties. I had a hard time writing songs on piano because I was used to jazz chords. And then when I stripped back the sevenths and stuff, it just sounded like a square piano chord and I didn't know how to make it sing yet. Right. So I, when I started playing guitar, I would write, I opened up song writing for me. Who are the people that made song writing make sense to you? Like who are the North Stars? Oh gosh. Can I try and write a song like that? I mean, all the, probably all the ones, all the ones, you know, probably Willie Nelson because his songs are deceptively, they sound simple, but then they always have like a little twist, you know, it's absolute perfection. It's pretty great. Yeah. You probably get better. Dolly doesn't hurt. Dolly doesn't hurt. I was just thinking about her today. Yeah. As I always am. Yeah, me too. I mean, I think that song, here you come again. Oh God. It's a fucking masterpiece. It's so good. All the twists and that. I mean, there's some really bold key changes, but you don't feel it. That's, that's the thing. That's the mastery part. Yes. It's the sleight of hand. What about you? Would you grow up loving? I grew up with nothing. I mean, I, I was like, me and my parents laugh about this now because they're, they're, they're such different. Music consumers now, but at the time they were, they were really young and they were just really worried about what we were listening to. And there was just a lot of rules around what we were listening to. Was it a lot of religious music? Yeah, it was. I mean, and there was, there was some, there was some bands I still really get behind a band called Isley. There's these sisters and I met them recently and I just, I think they still had such wonderful music idea, musical ideas, even though they're not a band anymore and a band called Mute Math I loved and like that was kind of still within, I don't know if they would align as like Christian bands, but the adjacent to, to that world. And so I had acceptable. Acceptable. Yeah. And those are the, those are the things that I was like into as a teenager, but I didn't hear the Beatles till the day I, like the actual day I graduated high school. Really? Didn't, yeah. Didn't grow up with it. Didn't grow. And really with a lot of the people who are like, who changed music for me and changed the way that I related to it. And it's all about permission too. You know, it's all about like finding the artists that allow you to be yourself and to like give way to your strangest impulses. Like, and I think, or bravest or whatever it is, like, Joanie, I had a real obviously, I mean, everybody has, but had an awakening with her when I was 18 years old was like, I ended up in Portland. It's a really long story, but I just, someone let me their car and I was just driving across all of this, the bridges and listen to Cort and spark. And I just was like, this is what it means to be a woman. She's singing about who I want to become. Yeah. That's a good moment when you can just, you can remember that moment. I can still smell it. Like I remember what the car looked like, felt like, and just how it came through the speakers. And I ended up at this like mansion with all of these roses. And I just, just think it was insane. It was like a psychedelic experience. Truly. That is another story. Yeah. That's another lifetime. We're about to jump into a song. But anyway, probably our heroes are probably similar. It's like just the grandmothers and grandfathers of everybody. Yeah. It's such a good thing to have that moment with the record. Yeah. I know. And you never forget it. Especially in the car. It's a real special place to have a listening experience. Yeah. You don't, do you have a car? Do you drive in the U.S.? Very little. But I had a 71 Cadillac, so Dan Deville, when I was in high school in Texas. And it had no AC one summer, which sucked. Love it. Yeah. Being there. Yeah, in Texas. And I, but I still just wanted to get out of my house and drive around at night. And I just remember listening to Otis Redding in the car. Damn. Over and over on my, and this cassette. And it was the best thing ever. That's my moment in a car. In a car. Yeah. I'm the one. Especially given that like you tour and I tour. It's like. It was always in our bingo cards. Yeah. Do you want to try my whole name? Let's try. I'm going to switch. Okay. Can we do you just keep going. All right. Nod. This is the easiest thing. This is so wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's got weird chords, yeah. Is it that same key? Yeah, it's got a weird chord structure. Hello, Taze. Nice. Oh, yeah. Let's do that. That's not right. That's not an F. Is it? Is it a different key? No, it is right. Whoa. Nice. Yeah, nice. I love that. I made my first album. That was a... I'm outing myself, but that was a big reference track for me. Oh, that's cool. How do we make it sound like this? That album sounds so specific. Because I made it with Danger Mouse. And those chords, specifically on that song, I mean, those were his chords. Okay, you wrote that together? We wrote all the songs on that record together. And he's an amazing songwriter. And I had never written with someone in the studio before. You were doing it on your own and then bringing it in? Well, or I also sang a lot of songs up to that point by band members and did covers. The album before that, I did write all the songs. Kind of. But yeah, I brought him in. I didn't write him in the studio. Did you feel scared to write in the studio? Yeah. Or was it like, you know, in the studio? Yeah. Brian and I were friends at that point, so that was good. But I was still kind of freaked out. Like, what if I can't come up with anything? Yeah. And he was a huge... He was like one of the turning points in my songwriting, I think. Because I realized, he said the best thing. One day we were kind of tooling around with something and I couldn't figure out a bridge and we didn't have any ideas. He's like, it's fine. We'll figure it out. Maybe tomorrow or the next day or the next day. And I was like, oh. You can do that? You mean I don't have to worry about it? He like took that off my plate. And then we did. That's actually, that's so magical because that is how the creative process should be. Is that you're taking things off of your own plate and trusting that that it will roll out. When it's ready. Yeah, when it's ready and it will be the thing that you want to say. That was the biggest lesson. I don't force anything. And so now it's easy. And it's not that it's easy. It's that I'm not trying to pull something out that's not there. Right, it's never easy, but you're not deliberately getting in your own way or making it harder than it has to be. Yeah, it comes when it comes. Yeah, it's so zen. It's so like, there's so much surrender in it. I love it so much. It's probably the thing I'm the most like, I'm learning to be more loose with because it's true. I have had the same experiences with people. I've been lucky enough to be around musicians who are so good at that and they know time management and they know that morale is the biggest thing. It's like the, you know, it's the thing like my dearest friend Mike Viola, like his whole thing when we've recorded together is very much like, are we not feeling it? Then let's walk away. Yeah, exactly. It's not because of apathetic. He is not apathetic. He just knows when it's gonna like soil an idea for good. Yeah, that's also anytime I've recorded something and it's not feeling right, but we still finish it, that's bad, Juju. It's bad. It's bad. It's mistrust. Sorry, that was weird. She's spitting and she's coughing. I'm like, what is in my throat? Throat code. Throat code is loosening. Betraying you. Excuse me. But yeah, it's a rule thing. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Like if it don't strangle something into existence, that's not gonna, I won't do it. Yeah, but at the same time, you know, we've put in the work and we know, we know the language. Yeah. And that's, that is work. It's not like, you know, it's so easy. It's just we've already done that part. You know, we've learned the language so that we can shake it all up and then like let it just come out. Yeah, unlearn. You can unlearn it a little. So I guess maybe I'll take back my previous statement where I said like, the rules aren't worth learning. I think they actually are. Yeah. But so is flexibility. Exactly. And so is like, like, you have to do it all at once. Yeah. I used to, I mean, I think I've, I'm a recovering perfectionist for sure. Oh, yeah. That's, I wonder if you have a similar thing just because of coming from the classical world like that must have been. No, you don't. No, I'm lazy. I'm the laziest of lazy. You'd never, ever know that. Okay. I work, I work hard because I'm always working. Yeah. But I don't practice well. Like I won't sit at home and work. Yeah. Unless I have something to work for. I think that's good. So that's kind of why I like to stay busy. Yeah. Yeah. It busy enough to keep yourself sharp. Yeah. That's why classical music didn't work for me because I was too lazy. Yes. It's not, it's not for the faint of heart. Yeah. It's hard. I mean, also, like you must have had back issues from practicing for that many hours. Like I didn't practice. Yeah. I see. I see. You didn't even go through your face. I didn't. I never went through a phase. I failed my college piano and jury because I know. I'm getting the sweats just because I didn't practice because it was classical. Because I was in jazz school and that was great with the classical part that you had to do. I failed and then I dropped out. I mean, that's badass. I don't do that. Don't do that. Sorry. Did you go to music school or anything? Like as a, as a after, after our home school. No, yeah. I really thought about it and had a few months in my senior year of high school of stress because I just was like, I have not been planning for, for where I'm going to go or I, I always knew that I wanted to do music, but like, I didn't know that you could actually, you know, very possibly make a career out of it until I was 16. So I, I don't know. I'm still trying to even figure out what it means to make a career out of music. It's very strange. Well, it's a lot harder now than it used to be. Yes. Yeah. In a way. It's harder and it's stranger. It's getting weirder. It's weird. And in a lot of ways it's easier if you're good at social media. Yes, which I am not. Most artists are. It's not my time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Most artists aren't like, it just feels like this, this secondary job obviously that nobody wants to do. No, no one wants to do it. No one is skilled at it. Yeah. That's probably why like the younger generation of artists are doing very well or like selling out tours in 30 seconds. Yeah. They figured out. They know how to be themselves on it too. I know. That, that's what it is. Yeah. It's not that we can't do it. It's that we have to find a way to just be true to ourselves and do it. Yeah. That's the only way to do it. And people don't always like, there's not a lot of it's not immediate to people if you're like, well, this is how I relate to it. Like the, the platformer, this is how I want to use it. It's like it's not, never going to be probably or most likely won't be in favor of metrics. Yeah. Metrics. Where did we go? Where did we just go? I don't know. Have you used that word before? Metrics. Yeah. Yeah. Like I've never used it. I don't think I've ever used that word. It's in my Rolodex. I love it. I love it. Recently because I, you know, like when you, when it's time to release an album, all this stuff gets tossed around all this language and you're like, huh? Not that word. And then it, but I just said it. Then it's in your head. In my head. I, I actually not going to tell the story. I was going to tell the story that I'll just tell you off air someday. Tell it. Tell it. I told this story about Depends in the last podcast. So permission. Yeah. We're going to delete it though. Okay. I love it. I love it very much. Yeah. Basically, the moral of the story is I just, I don't, social media hurts my feelings. Oh yeah. And you read it. You read it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess I mean that unless of like a, like it actually hurts my feelings, it's more just like the idea of like technology and trying to get good at it, that kind of technology. I'm just like, that's not my bag. And I'll, I will get left behind. That's fine. I don't want to, I don't want to like try and compete and on TikTok. I'm not going to do it. Until you want to sell a tour. Yeah. Right. That's when the deal with the devil's made. I mean, it's like, there's all these if thens. So don't count it out. Yeah. No, I know. It's, it's, yeah. Talk the tick. I'm going to talk the tick. Talk the tick. Do you want to talk? I don't know. I don't know. I don't even know. I do videos and sometimes my manager posts them and it's great because I don't know how. Yeah. I love that. I don't have my login info. When did, when did it become a parent that you were like, oh, shit, that Instagram and everything is a, I have to like play this game? I'm still pretty, I still come from the before times. So, you know, I had like a built in audience in a lucky way. But I think, I, you know, I think during the pandemic I started doing these live streams and those were fun. Yeah. Because I was just playing. It's interactive. Yeah. And I was just playing. Yeah. So that was cool. That was my way. I love that. But I don't do that anymore. Yeah. I probably should. No, you should, like I don't believe in should. If you want you should do it. Yeah, exactly. It's hard. Yeah. At that time it was good for me because it was the only time I played music all week. Yeah. I would do once a week and it wasn't the only time I touched any music. Did you have a kid at that point? Yeah. I had two little kids. Wow. So you have two or more than that? Oh god more. That would be hard. No. You're done. I'm done. Let everyone know you're done. So done. Did you grow up with siblings? I'm the oldest of five girls. What? Yeah. Which is wild. Excuse me. I know. All homeschooled? All homeschooled. My mom is in the last year of... She's still doing it. Yeah. She's in her senior year. Hats off. Well, interesting. Megan's a badass. She really is. She's like, and like has remained kind of in love with it and it's really cool. All my sisters are awesome. Like in a big family there's usually room for someone to get lost in translation or for there to be one kid that you're like, I'm worried about. Yeah. And all of them are just like, they're so intelligent and funny and beautiful. Like the people that I would probably want to be friends with if we weren't blood related or just really, like that's not a given. That's really sweet. That's amazing. Yeah. It's a fun it's a it was a crazy household to grow up and as you can imagine it was... Sounds a little crazy. Yeah. There was a lot of like fights over clothes. That was like the only tension that we had among us as well at least like the three oldest because we started to like have the same shoes size at some point and I can't relate. I grew up and only. Were you really? Yeah. Did you want siblings or were you like happy? I did. No, I did and I grew up an only child with a single mom. Okay. But then I have a half sister and we met when we were grown pretty much and we both wanted that. So it was good. Now I have like a grown up sister and we're pretty close because we met when I was 18. So at this point we've won each other a pretty long time. Yeah. And that's like for those are such formative years. Yeah. I mean we missed the main formative years but yeah, still had some that's so sweet. Yeah. You want to switch back? Should we do one more? Yeah. Just do one more song. So use a lot of different tunings, right? A lot of different tunings. I was in this like strange, suspended tuning for the first song we did Wake. It's C, G, D, F, A, C and I like found it online and wanted to like at the beginning of the new year of 2024 wanted to do something that felt like I was stretching myself and I was at war with it for like a week straight just kind of like almost like bang my head against the wall going like what? I don't understand how this works and I love songs for this reason because you can find like a tiny little pattern of chords and then just or like a thing that works and you go I think I understand where to put my fingers and you understand like you figure out where else on the neck or in the tuning there's more possible. It's just so it's really fun but this song is in Open D Oh it's pretty She's a classic. This is the steak of a tuning. That's the steak of an alch tuning. Okay. The Open D. Thanks Ben. And you always play an acoustic through an amp? If I'm playing right now I am, yeah. But do you usually on stage? Yes. I didn't know you could do that until I realized that Willie Nelson plays his acoustic through his nylon trigger Does he? He plays it through an amp. That's why it sounds so specific. Have you ever sung with Willie? Yeah. Oh I would love to hear that. He's so fun to sing with because he phrases weird but then when you're singing with him he's kind of following you but you're also following him. Wow. It's like a fun chase. It's like a a wormhole. But it's a good one. Spiral staircase. Yeah exactly. A Tom and Jerry episode. Exactly. Okay. I'm always your girl I'm always your girl I'm always your girl When I'm here When I'm there On a plane Headed somewhere You were staring down the cars Hoping it would be one of ours Children And grandchildren Riding your cars Riding your cars Riding your cars But how long were you Waiting for me To make a left down Your street It's not If darling It's when It's when There's always Something Left on Sad Were your Eyes green Were they Blue What was it That I forgot To ask You Busy Hands I set on Down To say I Love you Right out Out I'll bet you're Making Heaven Laugh But it feels Like tears and memories Are all We had Once I knew it I was always A know-it-all To this E2 Strust out to take your car The All I would always Find you there Sitting in your TV chair Well time Is it a bomb Having a laugh somewhere The nursing You were waiting For me To let go To let it be It's not If darling It's when There's always Something Left on Sad Were your Eyes green Were they Blue What was it That I forgot To ask You Busy Hands I set on Down To say I Love you Here and Now Take I need A new lead In his Man When this world And it's people Are all We have Well Once you girl I'm always Your Girl You You That's perfect. That's the way we cry. It's so beautiful. Thank you. I just got lost playing with you. It's funny that you just said about yourself. That you're like I'm so lazy. Everything about the way you just played is like proof of someone who's put in so much work. And also to be free. And everything you've played just works. It plays around and within. The rhythm so beautifully that it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. It's so beautifully that I feel overwhelmed. Thank you. Me too. I'm glad you changed the key because you were also very free with the song. You must have played it for a long time. Yeah. So it's much different from the recording. So I'm glad I got to throw my notes out. Me too. And we just got to play. Exactly. It's always better that way. It's always better to just play music because that's what it's for. It's beautiful. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me today. This made my whole week. More please. Let's hang. Let's play. I'll see you in New York. Cool. Yeah. Yay. I knew we'd be friends. I knew it. I felt it in my bones. Incredible. I loved playing with her. Those songs are so just these, the perfect word, arresting. Those three songs we did specifically are they're all good though. I hope we can do more together because she's so good. If you want to know which songs we played in this episode, the first song was Wake from the album Ace, which is from 2025. The second song we played was My Full Name also from the 2025 album Ace. And the third song was called Life According to Rachel from her album Revealer, recorded in 2022. Special thanks to Madison Cunningham for joining us today. And we'll be back next week with Jason Moran. Nora Jones is playing along as a production of I Heart Podcasts. Visit Nora Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. I'm your host, Nora Jones. This episode was recorded at Westlake Studios in Los Angeles, California by Thomas Warren. Assistant engineer was Danforth Webster. Backline tech, Jason Moser. Mixed by Jamie Landry. Audio post production and mastering by Greg Tobler. Additional recording by Matt Marinelli. Creative consulting by First3. Artwork by Eliza Fry. Photography by Shervin Lenez. Produced by Nora Jones and Sarah Oda. Executive producers Aaron Wong-Coffman and Jordan Runtog. Marketing lead Allison Cantor-Graber. Thanks for listening, watching, and tell your friends. I don't know why I said that. I don't know. We're keeping it. Tell your friends. Alright. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed human.