3 Megachurch Pastors Reveal Why They've Decided to Get "Political" | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Here's my big idea, man. I care about the Great Commission and the future of the church and the cultural inheritance that I'll have my kids more than I care about my reputation with you. Christ may be our refuge, but Christianity is not escapism. I think today we're gonna have a lot of pastors get to the end of their life and say, my greatest regret is not getting more involved. Oh, wow. That's right. Well, hey, Livfree Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Livfree Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We wanna invite you to take a simple next step and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now enjoy the podcast. Ryan and Josh, welcome to Livfree. Welcome to Livfree. What up? We're live brothers. Okay, we're going now. We're going dude. We're going now. All right, so here's what's getting ready to happen. You're about to, you know, as the catchy click baby kids title it, three megachurch pastors discuss. Yeah. Two and a half. Stop, man. So here's what you can write here. There is a pretty seismic shift. I feel like it's happening right now with pastors and their relationship to politics. And especially honestly, this is what we want to talk about as that relates to the Great Commission. Okay, so like, and this is honestly a radical shift from how pastors thought about things 30 years ago. All of our churches are seeing these things. I'll shoot you really straight. I'll just be really honest. There is probably nothing that, at least me, probably you guys too, have taken more bullets from other pastors than this specific thing. And we want to help pastors get their heads around it and then a bunch of Christians can listen and it's going to be awesome. That's interesting to point out. Not our parishioners pastors. No, no, actually church members in general are like, thank you. Finally. Yeah, they're like, because that's what I live in. Yeah, right. Thank you for coming out of the Tidebilt bubble to speak to the one I live in. So that's helpful for pastors to note. All right, so here's what we're going to do for this listening. This is going to be really interesting for everybody. So first of all, let me introduce these guys. Pastor Josh, can we first, and this guy's reaching thousands of dudes up in Washington state. We're going to talk about this in a second. It ain't easy to plant a church and build a great church in Washington state. That's a good man. That's a great dad. That's a great pastor. And he's a great friend. Amen. So we're glad to have you, man. Good to be here. Glad to have you. Bishop Rodimus Conti. These are the, you know, that he's our military minister. And then after doing it, how many, you did it two or do eight in Iraq? Yeah, just one. Yeah. And then pastor... It was a lot easier than being a pastor. For real, would you say that? Oh yeah. Seriously? I felt way more stress coming into being a pastor than I felt when I was deployed, having rockets and mortar shot at me every day. At some point, I like actually, want to talk to you about that. That's a podcast by itself. But okay. Well, respect and we're thankful. Thank you, absolutely. But this guy, church is absolutely exploding in the Phoenix area. You guys were like 10,000 on Easter. Yeah. And baptizing. Wow. I mean, let's like... Thousands of people. It's awesome. Let's go. It's the Jordan River out there at Generation Chess. River in the desert. It's all the people we're sending down from Washington. Thank you for that. You're welcome. Thank you. We like a smirk. Thank you for contributing to the cause. All right. And then we're all speaking at a conference. I want to talk about that later. We're all speaking at a conference together. Freedom Con. Freedom Con Man. Which ties into a bunch of this stuff. So let me just set the table on this. This is for all Christians, because we really want to talk about, a lot of Christians also have an ick factor to like, how do I apply my faith in the political realm? Shouldn't the church really avoid this? Aren't we supposed to be about the Great Commission? And man, it's honestly, isn't this a distraction? So we want to talk about that. But then honestly, all three of us in different seasons, like we've realized like, oh man, I got to lead my church in a new way, because this is a new era. So dude, can I just, let me just go right at it. Let's go. And then let's just start. All right. So in the era in which I was growing up in ministry, and probably you guessed too in some ways, here was kind of the vibe. It was like, hey man, pastors should not get political. You should be neither right nor left. The gospel is neither right nor left. But it does two things if you get into that stuff. One is probably gonna hurt. You know, a lot of times just you straight, this may feel awkward, but I'm gonna circle back to it. Man, it's gonna hurt racial reconciliation. And if you go there, and honestly, man, like, hey, everybody needs the gospel. And so if you start, you know, making applications in the political realm, you're gonna cut off half the people in the country from hearing your message. You know, you're not gonna be baptized in anybody, Ryan, if you're doing this stuff. And so it was kind of that, that kind of vibe. So honestly, let me just start right there, and then we'll roll the ball. I just rolled the ball out. That's the way I grew up in ministry. Why are you thinking different now? Living through the chaos of 2020 and the cultural upheaval, it revealed the problems with that thinking. I thought I had a healthy, unified church, but when the stress really came from COVID and from BLM, all of the fault lines started to crack. And I realized, oh, we're not as healthy as I thought. We're actually a lot more divided under the surface, but avoiding these topics that we're talking about today, it actually lets you have a false sense of peace and unity because you don't talk about the thing that exposes the division. And so when BLM comes up, all these factions start happening within my church, and I'm like, what's happening? There's people here who I loved and had great relationship with, and now we've got conflict, and they're asking me if I even love them and value them. And it just made me realize my approach to leadership, the same kind of leadership that we were mentored by and coached into, it wasn't actually right for this era. There were a lot of problems with it. Okay. McPherson, agree or disagree, additional comments? Totally disagree. Yeah. That was well said. Well, I think, I mean, there's a lot of ways to go with this, but when people say, if you get political, you're going to short circuit your ability to fulfill the Great Commission, there's like seven false premises in that sentence that are assuming things I wouldn't agree with. And so first of all, I don't get political, I teach the Bible. There you go. I teach the Bible. And so, and I want to teach how the Bible connects the dots to all portions of life. So, like, when we talk about on my churches, I'm not going, I'm not running past discipleship to do politics. I'm walking out discipleship and showing people how it touches politics. That's very different. And so, when someone or something says, you can't talk about this section of life that touches all of us. If I agree to that, one, I'm agreeing to run the enemies playbook to silence me as a man of God, to speak authoritatively from the word of God, how my King is King over all of life. When I think about the spheres of human sovereignty that God teaches us in the word of God that we're to address as pastors, you have individuals who are called to be responsible for their own actions and they're supposed to live according to the word of God. You have families that are responsible for educating the welfare of the children and caring for their own. You have churches that are responsible to preach the gospel, faithfully administer the sacraments of word and baptism. And then you have government that God created. God created government, by the way. It's a good thing. I'm not a scoff law. I'm not a libertarian. I'm not anti, no, no. God actually, government is God's idea to organize large group of people in such a way that they can flourish. God's called the government to protect its borders and to reward good and punish evil. We're in the moral categories now. So when I think about those different spheres of human sovereignty, if someone's saying, yeah, you can't talk about the government sector or you're being political, I'm like, well then I have to stop being biblical because there's actually more biblical data to teach from in relationship to the sphere of government than there is marriage, family, and it will put together. Right, whoa, whoa, whoa. Say that again. That sentence is easy to roll past. What you just said is really significant. I wanna see if we agree. So say what you just said one more time. Well, if you were gonna preach a sermon on marriage and you were gonna preach a sermon on parenting and I was gonna preach a sermon on God's ideas for government. Marriage, you're going Ephesians five. Yeah, if you were preaching on marriage and you on parenting and me on government, I would have 50X the amount of biblical data to pull from than you would to talk in your topic. Because you're counting all of the Old Testament law, all the way that God structured Old Testament Israel, and all of that is stuff that we should be gleaning wisdom from, is what you're saying. For governance, is that what you're saying? We have entire books of the Bible, the Old Testament, dedicated to setup government. And then you have this really pesky command to do justly and love mercy. And so almost all government legislation has to do with working out that government's definition of justice and mercy. And so many of Jesus's teachings was about, they were about the kingdom of God, which was a governance that was established by Jesus. But Ryan. Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world, Ryan. Yeah, he did. What are you talking about? Yeah, that's crazy. That's crazy. What was I thinking? You know, it's like, it goes back to discipleship, making disciples. When we teach people to receive Jesus as Lord, and other Lord and savior, Jesus is Lord over every part of your life. And that affects your relationships, marriage relationship, parenting relationships. It affects your career, your finances, what happens in your bedroom. But most of all your identity and politics today is really about identity more than anything. So telling pastors to not talk about politics is telling them you can't disciple your people in a really significant part of their lives. The truth is that politics affects people's lives more than many other things. The policies that are established by politicians have real impact on people's lives. So if we're gonna love our neighbors, as Jesus said we should, then we have to do everything that we can do to elect government officials who will enact policies that are loving towards our neighbors, in an actual biblical way of thinking about what is love. Love is not just affirming everybody and whatever they wanna do. It's actually helping to bring about what's in their best interest. So if you're listening to this, you're kinda listening, this is kinda like insider baseball. You're kinda listening in on a conversation that's happening in every pastor group text in America. It's violently different ways, by the way. I'll just say, I don't know, I feel comfortable saying this. This, what we're talking about right here is what has gotten me uninvited from a decent number of conferences. That is what has gotten me to lose out on, honestly, sometimes pretty lucrative potential teaching contracts. I've had well-known guys recuse themselves from appearing at conferences with me, all because it's just like, I just started getting clearer of years ago, like no, we actually have to apply the whole word of God to the entire world. And that actually includes the political realm. So it's like, if you're listening, you're about to listen in to, it's the insider conversation that pastors are having that is the most hotly debated one in our culture right now. We need you. Now, I wanna riff off something you said, and then first I want you to talk about this. So dude, what you just said, Ryan, is like, hey man, like it or not, and it may give you an ick factor. But the policies radically affect people, people matter to God, we're supposed to apply the whole word of the whole world. And then we're gonna get into this in a second. I'm gonna go ahead and give away my cards. The mantra of pastor world for the last, I don't know how long, maybe 40 years, has been don't mess with politics because it distracts from the Great Commission. What I wanna talk, I don't wanna go there yet, because it's probably the most incendiary thing we'll talk about. What we're saying, I think we're all saying this, that actually long-term, it nets out the opposite. I want you to talk about it because you're the one that actually experienced it the most. That actually long-term, and I have data to show this because it wigs people lose their minds when I talk about this, is that actually long-term, actually if you wanna make the Great Commission really, really hard for the church, just like Christians sit out politics, and that's an easy way to do it. So anyway, let me go to this, and first let me kick to you. Because dude, the guys, both Christians and pastors that opposed this convo the most, in my experience, I'm not trying to take anybody off. It's either red state pastors who they're kind of in the comfort of policies that end up being a wind at their back, that they don't realize they're a wind at their back, or as purple state guys who are still there, and they're like, oh, this isn't too bad. Like, I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand. What are you guys talking about? This isn't too bad? Or, and dude, I just wanna speak honestly, a lot of times it's like, it's blue state pastors who really their fear, and I actually understand this, is dude, man, I don't wanna alienate the people I'm trying to reach. So like, let's just cut the chase, and I want to disabuse those three groups of people of what I believe, lovingly would say this, is the dangerous illusion you are living in. So Josh McPherson, can you just talk really quick about like, hey man, you guys who are living in the shire, Wake up. You guys who live in the shire, so here's what happens to Christian families and churches In Mordor. In states like Washington, where you are, when secular progressive policies actually get enacted. So I'm, you take it away, bro. Well, interrupt me when you want. I'll just, I'll riff off stuff. What you're pointing out, the challenge of is, is faithfully preaching the gospel, and shepherding the church, and leading the church on mission, is not just preaching the gospel. I was talking to the guy yesterday, and he's like, churches shouldn't get involved politically, because the gospels are our haymaker, man. Well, and he lists it off. We need to preach the truth, fill it with the spirit, and I get him to say it, and I was like, yes, yes, yes, and yes. He's like, well, and then my answer was, and then what? And then what? So they get to say, they have to go out and live life. And so what do you do then? And when Jesus and the Great Commission, teach them to obey everything I have commanded you. There's a lot included there, including Romans 13. Including Genesis. Including Genesis. And so as a, as a. Dominion mandate. Yeah, let's keep going. Speaking of that, one of the things we were doing at the Freedom Conference, because I got a small business with a buddy, we build houses on the side, and it's becoming possible, $163,000 of every new house built in the state is directly connected to permitting, and permission you're getting. What? From the government to build that house. How much? So, 162,000 of every house. What? There's another six and a half months of permitting process that adds about $30,000 in the process. So we have this affordable housing crisis in our state, and it's 100% created through bureaucracy and red tape. Well, now that means that my son who just got married can't afford to buy a home. And that means that my older relatives who have done well in their life can't afford to stay. So if you're young, you can't start. If you're old and established, you can't stay. Because we have 64 different taxes on the books that hits people at every level. So I'm looking out, trying to pass to group of people who are unable to flourish because of the weight of bureaucracy and government on their back. For instance, here's some examples. We have like no Christian counselors in our town. Because a law was passed, political law policies where if you're licensed by the state, which is every counselor in the state, if you're gonna practice as a professional, you're not, say a guy comes in your practice, I'm married, but I'm struggling with desires for dudes. If you say, let's keep you married, let's reject those desires, those are wrong, those are simple, those are unbiblical. And he turns you in, lose your license, find your jail time. Yeah, there goes your whole career. There goes your whole career. And so now, because I live in a deeply blue, progressive state, I have almost none, if any Christian counselors in my city, that drastically impacts my ability to shepherd and pastor our people. Another example. Talk about people moving out of state. Yeah, the state passed a law that said it's illegal for teachers to share with parents that a child in a state school is expressing gender confusion or interest in their gender. They are allowed to take that student off site. They are allowed to take them to a gender therapy center. What they aren't allowed to do is say, hey, did you know that Hudson is, they can't do that. And so I've had two families move to Montana because they both had mentally handicapped children that they felt were being groomed in a state school. And they were afraid if they stepped in and said, quit telling my son you think he's gay, because he's not, they would take your son from him. That's crazy. My state just passed an income tax, millionaire income tax. It's camouflage for coming for all more of your money. So in my state, when I started building my campus 10 years ago, since I started that process in the last 10 years, I've just had my head down trying to build a church. In the last 10 years, state revenue tax has doubled. From 20 billion to 40 billion. So the thing about that, in 10 years, it's doubled. I put my head down, look up, most regulated state in the union to build a home, most regulated state in the union to build a commercial building. So quite literally the state is inhibiting and preventing men and businesses from being fruitful. That's a dominion mandate that's almost impossible. Worst state in the union to start a business, worst state in the union to buy a new home, worst state in the union to start a family, worst state in the union to make money, worst state in the union to die. So what's happened is 48% of this, check this out. They passed the income tax in this last legislative session. Since they passed that, like less than a month and a half ago, the Washington Association of Business took a survey, 48% of businesses in Washington said they will move out of Washington in the next 16 months before the income tax goes into effect. 48%. Now what pastors aren't paying attention to is, what happens to your church and your ability to hire staff, build buildings, serve the poor, reach the lost, build a church, what happens when half the men in your church leave and take their business and resources with it? You die. When the business leaves and the men leave, the church dies and the state dies. And so pastors aren't connecting the dots fast enough because it's not in the heart of a man to just bend over and take it every day from the state. They're gonna stay in fight, which is almost impossible to fight, or they're gonna leave to ghost them where the state doesn't make war on them as a man, but actually appreciates the contribution they're making to the garden. Without giving away any identifying information, a pastor we know in your state had a majority of his church board members say they're gonna resign and leave the church because they need to leave the ridiculous tax policies of the state. Think about what that does to a church, to have the church governance and leadership undermined like that and just essentially disrupted, pulled out from under your feet when you're trying to minister to people, that's so disruptive to a church. I talked to him last week, four out of five of his board members, we love you, we love this church, we can't stay, it wouldn't be good stewardship to say, we're moving the next 16 months, you need to get ready for that. Okay, so I'll leave a bullet. And it's happening everywhere by the way. So dude, I always shoot up cards on the table. Like for a long time, I was the guy that I described through the podcast. Yeah, same. New York, New Orleans, same. Yeah, so do you know what changed me? It was one, it was a relationship with you guys, but before that, and by the way, I am not speaking on behalf of everybody in this network because I guarantee there's people who view it different than me. It was when I started helping lead a church planning network that only plans churches in secular progressive urban centers and when I started watching what happens these guys, they come into the city, they come in here for our national conference and they will walk in and they start telling me stories about how hard it is to plan a church, disciple families and build buildings and stuff. Honestly dude, that's what made me start going like, wait, the accomplishment of the Great Commission is connected to righteous governance. This is like a big deal. So let me bullet point some stuff that's connected to this. And then you guys chime in if I'm missing, because you've been around this, all right. So for pastors and Christians that are listening in, how does actual political policies make the job of the church harder or could be a win at your back? Well in a state like yours, most of this is Washington state stuff. Number one, what we're talking about is taxation policies. Now what I have grown up hearing, and I have read many books like this even within the last year of pastors talking about how we really should avoid this stuff and pastors will typically say, man actually things like marginal tax rate, man that's something that really the Bible didn't speak to and really just know, well actually, the Bible actually says a lot about wealth redistribution and property rights. Property ownership, stealing. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Stealing is a big one. Stealing kind of a big one. It's in the Ten Commandments. By the way, this whole sermon, it is possible for governments to commit theft. It is. Just because you're committing theft and calling it taxation, that doesn't make it not theft. Right. Yeah, unrighteousness smeared with the language of law doesn't make it not unrighteous. Right. So what you got is, here's what we know. So what you were doing earlier for our listeners, Josh is talking about, it's called Kiparian Sphere Sovereignty. So what you got is God has instituted three institutions in the scriptures, the family, the church, and the state. When they all stay in their lanes and function according to the scriptures, society flourishes. When they get out of their lanes, they start eating each other. So what you're talking about right there is, hey man, Charlie Kirk actually started talking about this at the end of his life. Is man, actually when the government gets really big, the church gets small. Because the government has to take the resources people and churches would have used because the church and Christian individuals are supposed to be once helping the poor. So when the government goes, actually we're gonna do it, one, they're terrible at it. Number two, they actually incentivize actions that lead to more poverty. So anyway, I'm making this long. What we're talking about is number one, in states like yours, government gets bigger, makes the church's job smaller because the resources are smaller. Number two, to your point, it's little stuff, dude. It's like, hey man, you have this little phrase you'll say, in our state, they don't make it illegal to build churches, they just make it impossible. Yes. Okay. So the thing about this, like this is, I could copy and repeat this a million times, stories I've heard, is hey, we're trying to build, we're at church trying to build a building, but every time we try the entire city council of people who hate Christians because they're secular progressive people, we can't get anything approved. Or they're constantly, you know, sticker-shocking us, they're making us do this and that. So you got that. You got situations like, I think I can say it, if I can't all edit it out later, our buddy Russ Johnson up there in Seattle, holds a worship rally in the middle of Seattle. And then you get, you know, people who have been trained by secular progressive ideals, government schools, all the things, to view Christians as the bad guys. Immoral. Pastors as Darth Vader. And they roll up and they start throwing water balloons filled with urine at Christians worshiping, violently attack them. I think they put six people in the hospital, if I remember right. And then the government, the mayor actually says that Russ and his church, actually you were the problem. You instigated it, so you got that. You got the situation, I know you're trying to solve this. And when deep inset blue policies, all of a sudden, well now the government schools, they're actually reverse discipling children into moralities that are actually in direct opposition of all these things. So now when you're trying to disciple your kids, you're fighting all these things. Soon away, this forms this little web of things that begins making it really much harder to make disciples build churches. What would you add? Yeah, so and when we talk about being political, when pastors think churches shouldn't be political, when Christians say pastors shouldn't be political, they're usually not talking about foreign trade policy. They're talking about three big things that come up that get people fired up. That these are the things that cause people to walk out of our church services, angry sometimes, and they'll go on the internet and say, I don't wanna go to that church, it's too political. We're talking about sexuality and the identity that goes along with that, as well as abortion, which we'll get labeled as reproductive rights, and DEI policies. Those are the things that are most pressing in our current time that we need to speak to as pastors, but they get labeled as you're being political. When you look at those issues, they're all connected to deeper heart issues, right? Sexuality, identity, there's such sensitive heart issues. The concern that you brought up that pastors have is, if I get talking about politics, it's gonna inhibit my ability to reach lost people and fulfill the Great Commission. And then when I started to realize that was wrong, was when I was reading the Bible and started to pay attention to what? There's this book I read. When I was reading the Bible. The best seller of all time. I noticed a couple of key things that Jesus did when he was encountering seekers. There were a couple of seekers who he encountered. One was the woman at the well, who asked, where can I get this living water? I mean, that's a seeker if there ever has been one. She's like, I wanna know more, and what does he do? He says, go get your husband. And he pokes at her sexual sin issues. Probably her core issue, the core of her trauma, her pain. And he goes to the thing that is least sensitive because he knows that at the root of that, that's where there needs to be a transformation or her experience salvation. And then with the rich young ruler who asks, what do I need to do? He gives him this ridiculous, it seems ridiculous to us if we're like modern day, seeker sensitive pastors, we would say, the modern day seeker sensitive pastor would say, bro, you can belong before you believe, just come on in. But Jesus said, go sell everything you have. Okay, so and then with both of these guys, he went to like core heart issues. Money is a core. I mean, it's where your treasure is, your heart is also. So in those situations, one person went away, left sad, the rich young ruler, and then the woman at the well went and got her whole village and brought them to Jesus. It shows us a couple of things that reaching lost people does not require avoiding the thing that is sensitive in their life, even maybe the most sensitive in their life. It also teaches us that just because we talk about things that cause people to walk away, angry and reject Jesus, that doesn't mean we failed as pastors or as Christians. That means that we probably actually represented Jesus in a biblical way. And we just see the reality is some people are not gonna receive him and some people are. That's not ultimately our fault. That's the Holy Spirit's job to work on them and transform them and draw them. But I've found that over the last couple of years, by being more clear on what the Bible says and how it relates to political issues, a couple of things have happened. People who are hard-hearted and they don't wanna receive Jesus as their king, maybe they like Jesus as savior, but not necessarily king. They'll go away like the rich young ruler did. And I don't want them to leave, but that's just the reality is they leave. You could say, this is biblical truth, you could present it in the most loving way possible, but there are people who will leave. On the other hand, your Christians who stay will grow, they'll become more discipled, which better equips them to carry out the mission that Jesus gave us and reach the people in their community. Cause we're not just reaching lost people from me in the pulpit, it's our people going out into the community. If they're a disciple, they're gonna do a lot better job reaching their lost. And then additionally, when you speak clearly to biblical truth, the Holy Spirit, I think, blesses that. There's a special anointing. But that's exact. Yeah, when you represent God's word in a way that's true to God's heart, God blesses it. There's an anointing on that kind of preaching. And what I have seen in my church is even though I'm getting labeled sometimes as being political, I don't really think I am. I think I'm teaching biblical truth, but we've had more people getting saved each year than the year before. Now, our church isn't as big as yours, but we're getting to the point where it's over 1000 people a year getting saved. Let me just pause. It's like a megatrush a year. Like just stop and think about that. Say that one more time. Yeah, we've got, I've seen it go, 500 salvation. Now we're up over 1000, 1200. You know, it's not hindered us reaching lost people. What's happened is we're reaching more lost people than ever and the people who get saved and stay in our church are more unified. We have a common, a love for scripture and for each other. And we focus on first things first, what matters most. And it's a joy to be with my church. And it's a joy to be the pastor of my church. I'm not having to walk on eggshells. And when I get up to, you guys know what it's like five years ago when we were gonna preach on a controversial issue. Man, I was like, you put your hat on, your cup, your cup. You're like, whoo, here it goes. I literally made a preaching helmet. I started bringing it out to warn people. Yeah. Honestly now it's kind of like, this is gonna be fun. We're gonna get down to some real talk. And you don't get that overnight, because I know there are- You do not, we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about how to do this. But talking about the things that people label as political today, it does not hinder your ability to reach the lost. It actually helps us accomplish what we all wanna accomplish the lost. All right, so shoot me straight. I didn't tell you I was gonna ask you this. But shoot me straight, because here's what I think a lot of especially pastors would say is, of course, man. But you're just reaching a bunch of red guys. Yeah, you're just reaching a bunch of the people who already agreed with you. I mean, honestly, true, false, what would you say? Well, I think today there are a lot of conservatives who aren't Christians. A lot. And that wasn't always the case. We used to just associate political conservatism with Christianity's, hence the phrase cultural Christianity. Today, a lot of conservatives are not Christians. They like God in a sense, like in an ambiguous kind of sense. They like freedom, trucks, football, barbecue. I believe in Jesus, NASCAR, and SEC football. Yes. And then on the other hand, if we were to look back, 30, 40. That's a good combo. It's not bad. Country music. Yeah, we're trying that. So, well, today, a lot of these people, they have these kind of values that they don't even realize are rooted in Christianity. In fact. And they don't have Christ. So it's like, these are people that I think Jesus would look at and say, you are not far from the kingdom of God. They're not in it yet, but they are flirting right on the border. And if we can just, and this is what happened in my church, a couple of years ago, I brought Charlie Kirk in to speak on at a men's night. And we just talked about a lot of things, whatever. At the end of the night, I just said really quickly, hey, if you're a guest, and if you love Charlie Kirk and what he talks about and what he stands for, you need to just make sure you're clear on this, that Charlie's ideology and his beliefs are rooted in the person of Jesus. And Charlie's sitting right next to me, amen, that's right. And I said, if you don't yet know Jesus, you need him. And we had dozens of people receive Jesus that night. At a church. At a night with Charlie Kirk. At a night with Charlie Kirk. And you would think, well, you're just trying to appeal to a bunch of people that already believe anyway. It's like, there are a lot of conservatives who are going to these NASCAR races and pickup truck, whatever, these guys still need Jesus. And because of the way the over 10 window has shifted, people who are left today, nobody's beyond God's reach, right? Even the Saul can become Paul with one encounter with the Holy Spirit. But today, the way that left ideology works and exists, it leads to very hard heartedness towards the Lord. So when we're just looking at, if we're looking at the fields objectively as a farmer who wants to bring in the harvest, right? Where is the harvest ripest? I've only got so many years of my life. I've only got so many hours in the day. I want to bring in the harvest. I want to be a good and faithful servant. Where am I going? I'm going to the ripest harvest fields. And if it so happens to be that those people are more, I'm not even trying to cater my message to reach those people. I'm just teaching the biblical truth that straight down the middle of the fairway, and it happens to resonate with those people on the right, sometimes more often, because of the way that the world is today. Like shoot me straight. Do you think like true or, you may just say, yeah, man, actually it's true right now. That's fine. Well, like would you say, man, in general, what would you say to the guy that's like, yeah, it is easy. You just kind of, you just reach a bunch of conservatives. Because you're not reaching anybody else. You're not reaching. Well, it's not true that we don't reach people that come from the left. What I would say is true though, is that if a guy comes to my church who's kind of conservative and he's not yet a believer, it'd be easy for him to sit in service for six months to a year and just go, I kind of like all this. I don't know if I believe yet, but a lot of what this guy says is straight talk and I appreciate it. If you're today, if you're like left wing and you come to my church, we're going to have a decision point really quick. You know what I mean? If you come today to my church, you're going to be welcomed, you're going to be loved, whoever you are, but if you have strong left wing political ideology, you're either going to quickly repent of it, be convicted by the Holy Spirit, receive Jesus, and we have that. We have people in our church who used to be trans and now they've detransitioned and they're living for Christ, getting married to opposite sex and they're glorifying God. You're going to either get saved quickly or you're going to get mad and leave quickly because you're hard hearted. And if that's the case, either way, it's better for it to happen sooner than later. It's better for the church. This is interesting. I don't know what you'd say. It's not true for us at like point. Maybe it's because of strategy. We can talk about strategy a little bit in a minute, but there is a very wide, very wide range of person that gets saved here. That is not hindered us in evangelism. Josh. Nope. Hasn't hindered us. Josh, what? No, that's, yeah, you just answered. Yeah, I mean, I guess one of the things I would add, I agree with all that's very good. If you're intentionally bending what you're saying in order to hopefully keep people that are in the category of secular, godless, progressive, whatever you'd call it, at some point you're going to have to make decisions about compromise that just go too far to be considered being faithful. Because to Ryan's point, there's going to be flashpoints very quickly in relationship to the world that you're teaching. And this is maybe what I would encourage pastors with is, is people have said like, when you get so political recently, I thought you used to be like the family guy and the marriage guy and the men's guy. And I'm like, yeah, I am. Yeah, I still am. I've just realized now at 47, that with a 20 year old that's trying to live on her own and of 19 who's married and trying to buy a home and a 16 year old is trying to get a job and pay for car insurance she can't afford and I can't afford as a grown man. And a 14 year old son is looking out and trying to get a job in the world. I'm like, if I don't step into that noble role of statesman where I'm caring for more than just my family but using my years of experience to draw from, whatever wisdom I've gained, to apply it to the broader community for the flourishing of not just my family but the broader community through policies that are made and enacted that are coming from a worldview that have anchored in some morality are either gonna hurt or cause a flourishing. If I'm not involved in that, I'm actually being selfish. I'm not being Christian. And so part of it might be like a season of life thing where you don't have kids are old enough to see how much bad politics bring about bad policies or hurt real people. But when your kids are like trying to get married and start families and you realize they can't because your state's on fire because of not just foolish, I'd even be okay with incompetent bureaucracy. I mean, it would still drive me nuts. But I would be okay with it. But like objectively wicked bureaucracy, I have a moral obligation for God as a man. Because people who aren't from states like yours, they don't even know what you're talking about. Well, give like just rapid fire. Like when you say overtly evil legislation, like what are you talking about? Well, I just named some. It's illegal. So our attorney general and head of OSPI, which is head of education for the state, state of education just came out and said, if a girl is old enough to get pregnant, she's old enough to make her own decisions and her parents can butt out of her business. Now that's a violation of a very clear biblical principle that puts parents- So she can kill their grand kid. She can kill their grand kid. Without them knowing if she gets pregnant at 16, 15. Without their knowledge and the state will help. And the state will like, so when the state says, if you try to stop Johnny, your son from becoming Susie, we're gonna take Johnny from you. Now the only time the state can take a child from a home is if the state views that home as abusive, which means the state in Washington has categorized classic orthodoxy Christian belief as abusive in the home. Yeah, yeah, it's not easy. Now that's immoral. And it's happening at every level, government, education, it's everywhere. But back to my original point, when people say, gosh, I thought you're the family guy, you're being the political guy. What I'm saying is, if I don't get involved politically, one, I think I'm failing to do my job as a statesman, two, the job of the pastor is getting exponentially harder because, and this is what I'll say is, I don't even like talking about politics. I don't even like politics. But what I'm realizing is- None of us do. None of us are like waking up geeking about. No, just wow. But- You care about our people. I think it's the breach in the wall right now. And Luther, someone made the quote where, if you claim to defend Christ, but fail to defend the one breach in the wall that's currently pouring, the enemy's pouring through, then you're not being a faithful defender like Osmo. What I'm saying is, there is a massive breach in our biblical worldview and relationship to public civic duty as a Christian. So I'm saying like, let's go there and patch the wall up because Christianity is not a one-dimensional sinner's prayer. And now I'm in. Christianity is a comprehensive worldview where we take the word of God and we show how the King and his truth touches every factor of life. And so I tell our churches, Christ may be our refuge, but Christianity is not escapism. Yeah, it's not. We're not retreating into this cave and like buttoning the hatches. We're joyfully and graciously. We're just exiles and Babylon, let us say Babylon. My kingdom is not of this world. Well, what would you say to that? We're exiles and Babylon, Josh. Aren't we supposed to just retreat and Babylon's always gonna be Babylon, right? Here's what I would say. What does the word politics mean? Politica, affairs of the city. So what I would say is, when you get involved in politics, it's as if you're caring to work for the welfare of the city. I've heard a verse about that before. And we've got a verse about that that was spoken. Who? Tim Keller. Jeremiah wrote it. It's a good one. It's a good one. Jesus, Jesus. You're trying to get me all right. You're popularizing, keep going, keep going. You're trying to mess with my blood pressure. No, you were quoting like we're supposed to be exiles. That was a prophetic word from Jeremiah, given to who? People in exile. The people in exile. And so we have a system of government that I believe was set up in the context of an overtly Christian worldview that was created and Christian advocacy was created by vocal, bold, courageous pastors who were preaching a very public theology. They were saying, where the spirit of the Lord is there as freedom and it starts in the individual and it works itself out throughout society. And then they built a framework for a constitutional republic that we're getting the benefit of living in as this experiment of freedom that I believe was their best intent of working out a new covenant theocracy. Where there's a government that's built for the express purpose of benefiting the people and causing their flourishing as it's submitted to a higher authority, namely God Almighty in his word. And so when we fail to address these issues as pastors, I think we're selling our people short to see the goodness and the beauty and the comprehensive nature of the word of God and how it speaks to all of life. Let me add something to that. Okay, let me, yeah, I'm coming to you. So what I'll say, let me just put theological categories on what you just said. So like here's a massive light bulb moment for me. So you take the Khyperian spheres, family church state. All right, well, there's this pattern to riff on a little driscoll thing and make it a little different. Whatever God creates, Satan tries to commandeer. So check this out. All right, no, I'm doing commandeer. He does counterfeit, I'm doing commandeer. Whatever God creates, Satan tries to commandeer. So watch this, God creates a family in Genesis too, right? Okay, so what you get is if the husband, Adam, refuses to lead his family and stands passively by, then Satan walks in and goes, hey, you won't lead your family, I'd be happy to. Okay, I took care of that sphere. Okay, well then God creates, you go church. Okay, God creates church, obviously creates church in Acts chapter two, go to Revelation chapter two and three. Obviously you got letters to the seven churches. And remember there was one church in particular that had passive elders that refused to lead the church. And there was that one church, passive elders refused to lead. And what does Jesus say? He's like, this I have against you. You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who sets herself up as a prophetess and leads and seduces my people to practice sexual immorality. Here's the case in point. If godly elders won't lead their church, Satan goes, I'd be happy to. That's right, yeah. Well, let's apply that in the third category. Whenever Christians, who by the way, have been given the historically unique privilege of living in a constitutional republic, where we actually have been given fractional leadership of our nation. If godly people go, man, actually I'm gonna stay passive and they refuse to lead, then guess what Satan does? He go, I'd be happy to. Yeah, 100%. So here's the big idea, man. If godly people won't, godless people will. That's right. Now what reasons? There's actually, well, I was gonna say, there's a biblical text that speaks to that, but you gotta thought. Well, a lot of Christians are going, I just wanna tell people that Jesus loves them and focus on all the good that we as Christians can do in our world. And I don't wanna talk about politics. What you were describing, Josh, as I became a dad and I want my kids to have. Bro, this changes everything. Here's the, so Proverb says, a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children. That means we as Christians, as husbands, as dads and as pastors, we have a responsibility not just to leave our children money in the bank, but an inheritance of a society where they can flourish and where the church of Jesus Christ can do our job without the government interfering with it. That's the inheritance that we have a responsibility to leave our children's children as a good man, not just US dollars, but a US society where they can actually live their lives in freedom and love Jesus without the government interfering with it. So here's what moved me to partly off your point, Ryan, is there's something my dad taught me when I was young. I'm sure your dad taught you and your dad taught you. And then it's leave it better than you found it. It started in my bedroom. It moved my dad's car. If I borrowed my dad's car, brought it back with a gas tank half empty and wrappers on the floor, it was the wrath of God. My dad was not happy with it. Yeah, it just doesn't work. It won't fly. You don't bring the shotgun back dirty and muddy and jammed up. You bring it better than you found it because that's what McPherson men do. And when I realized that that little McPherson code was really springing from the garden mandate to be fruitful, multiply, fill the air, so I do it, to take what I've given you, to take the talent I've given you, take one talent turned to five, take one talent turned to 10, take what I've given you, we get to enter into the joy of joining the creator in creating, managing, labeling, naming, building, growing, shaping. It's just incredible expression of God in the image of man. It's a good analogy. Yeah, it would have been the image of God, right? What I realized was in a 47, and I think their trajectory is still going the wrong way, there's a very good chance that in my lifetime, both my state and America would have gotten objectively, measurably worse. And what I realized was history would look back and go, hey, who are the pastors in Washington state when it went to the dogs? Who are the pastors in the country when they were mutilating children? Who was like, huh, Josh McPherson, interesting. I wonder, did he do anything? And I was just overwhelmed with the sense of like, dear God, if I don't do anything, there's a very good chance that this incredible expression that is unique to history, this experiment freedom, we know it's this constitutional republic, would have gotten objectively worse during my watch. And that's on me. And there was just a sense of obligation. We're like, I have an obligation before God to do whatever I can. And even if I lose, I wanna go down fighting. So that the record would show, well, he was trying. At least he tried. I don't know where it's gonna go, but I want my voice to be so clear. And so loud, I do not consent to wickedness being funded by tax dollars. I do not consent to the most weakest and vulnerable among us being mutilated, manipulated, murdered. I do not consent to good, hardworking men and women being punished, objectively punished with tax laws that are tantamount to thievery. I do not consent to look in the other way. I do not consent to bowing to the mob. I do not consent to cowardly pulpits. I do not consent to the church abdicating its responsibility to be a nation's conscience. And so for me, it's become a matter of like, I'm gonna do whatever I can to leave it better than I found it. And it's not looking good right now, but we're trying, we're in the game. And what I was gonna say to your point earlier, if godly men and women won't lead, Satan will step in and follow. There's this crazy parable. I was talking to Tim Barton, he pointed this out to me. There's this crazy parable in- Friend of the pod, shout out. Oh, Tim and Dave are national treasures. The wall builders, incredible. You gotta go check them out. Judges chapter nine is a parable. And it says, the tree went to the olive tree and said, would you come and plant your tree? And the olive tree said, why would I do that? And said, no, he went to the vine and said, would you come plant, no, why do I do that? He went to the fig tree. Would you come, no, why do I do that? He went to the briar patch and the bramble patch said, I'd love to plant my gardens. And so the analogy was- Wow, I see where that's going. Yeah, like the good trees refuse to grow. The bad trees were all more than happy. We're thrilled. Yeah, and so he connects it to Patrick Henry. Patrick Henry was governor for eight terms. He only ran twice because the people kept writing his name in and he felt it was his moral obligation to sacrificially step into the civil magistrate, to serve his broader community, to draw on his years of wisdom experience, to help love his neighbor through godly policy. He kept saying, literally in several elections, please stop voting for me. I wanna go home to be with my family. I wanna go be with my family. No more. No more. No more. But they kept voting for him and he felt it was his noble obligation to sacrificially step into service. And that's what I wanna hear Christians. I want Christians to hear it and pastors to hear. What you're talking about is a theology of Christian statesmanship. That's right. Christians, and by the way, this is something I think all of us are feeling right now is hey man, at least, you know, that's not something I have grown up and pastor world hearing about. It's a man calling men and women of God to be Christian statesmen and Christian stateswomen. And then like, I'm like, now real quick dude, you're actually doing something about it. And actually all of us are involved in this. You're doing it, actually, it's one of the best little lineups I've seen. So you're doing this thing called Freedom Con. It's the first thing I've literally ever heard of, like it. And it might be meeting the most significant need in the church in our nation. Coming up is Father's Day, Freedom Con. Tell me about it real quick. By the way, strongly, if you're listening, if you can do this thing, you wanna do this thing. Yeah, it's gonna be incredible. Friday, Saturday, Father's Day weekend, the Gorge Amphitheater in George Washington. Which by the way, I've heard is literally one of the most gorgeous places in America. It's the most iconic outdoor venue. It's like live nations like number three producer all the time. It's massive. You're looking over the Gorge. It's stunning. Dave Matthews, this is all time favorite venue to play in. It's legit. It's incredible. High school flashback. Yeah, he does like a four day concert there every year. That's awesome. Like 8,000 camping sites, 30,000 showers. Dude, didn't he record an album there one time? Yeah, I had that album. Heck yeah. I just clicked. So we're doing it at the Gorge. And we wanted to do something big for, it's the 25th anniversary, bro. This is a big deal. I'm like, oh, I wanna do something big. We have our annual Strongman Nation Conference. That combined with the fact that our state is just in the toilet politically, thinking more about what's wrong. We went to Olympia and I realized Olympia is just dark. And Olympia is dark, not because Christians aren't waving their like magic potion wand over it and praying prayers. No, Olympia is dark because the spirit of God's not there. And here's what I realized. You don't pray the spirit of God over a place like a wand. You send many women who carry the spirit of God into darkness. So if Olympia is gonna shift from dark to light, we have to send many women who carry the spirit of God into the dark places. And that led to like Pastor Adam James, as you know, like I'm feeling called to go into politics. And so he's running for state representative now, which is a whole other story. The point being is the whole conversation around Christian nationalism, like that boogeyman word, that's just, we've all joke up. Nobody knows what it means. Yeah, there's no definition, but if they stick it on you, It can label you and write you off. To which I respond, if you're accusing me of being a Christian and loving my nation, I'm in guilty. So sue me. So old. Yeah, but to move it away from like the boogeyman buzz phrase of Christian nationalism to Christian statesmanship, because that is a noble sacrificial endeavor that requires a man to draw from a lifetime of wisdom experience to now then leverage it in generous others oriented service in the years when he should be mailing it in and join his wealth and retire and he's saying, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna step into the fray. And guys, that's gonna get messy. It's not fun. It is dark. It is corrupt. And I literally had a pastor text me the other day, something happened in the White House and he's like, this is exactly why Christians should be involved in politics. I was like, all due respect. This is exactly why we should be. How we can influence it. Totally, wait, wait, where is the salt supposed to go? Oh, to the things that are rotting, right? Light goes to dark places. Salt goes to preserve that's which writing. So I get it's gonna be messy. It's corrupt. That's where God's calling us to go. Imagine a government that wasn't corrupt. Imagine a government that bowed its knee to the sovereignty of God. Imagine a government that aligned its policies with the principles of God. Would that not work for the flourishing of your people? Would you rather have a governor who prays, acknowledges, Jesus has king and submits his life to the word of God or a government who doesn't? There's no question because we believe the Christian worldview brings the most flourishing for the most people, even those who don't believe it. So you're doing this conference. Yeah, sorry. To essentially give a, like it's a vision. And honestly dude, I've never even heard of that before. It's like, I'm in. Rise of the Statesman. So that's the conference. Who's gonna be there? So I've asked, I asked the greatest men in the country, I know, to come and put their mind to this idea of Christian Statesman. So it's Josh Auerton. It's Nick Freitas. It's Nate Shatzlein. It's Ryan Viscani. It's Russ Johnson. It's, I got their names in there. It's who else? Mark Driscoll. Graham Allen. Graham Allen. Eric Metaxas. Chad Robesha. Tim Barton. I mean, it's just this massive lineup of guys. And I've asked them to, I wanna talk about Statesmanship historically, biblically, theologically, personally, pastorally, ecclesiologically, philosophically, and personally. And so there it's gonna take a different angle. And we're just gonna unpack this idea of Christian Statesmanship because it's my hope to shape the conversation so that pastors and churches once again see civic service as noble. We used to call them civil servants, not politicians, because it was a noble act of sacrifice and generosity and service. It was an expression of loving my neighbor as myself in a broader sense. And so we kinda wanna reignite the conversation around Christian Statesmanship because it was Christian Statesmen who founded this nation and only Christian Statesmen who preserve it. Wow, wow, bro. It's gonna be awesome. We'll stick, by the way, if anybody's interested, we got a bunch, I've heard there's a bunch of dudes from Lake Point that are gone. You can stick, we'll stick the link to it in the show notes and in the little sub right below the YouTube video so you can get it there. And then is there a website they can go to? There's a, it's freedomcon26.com. It's got trailers, info, media packets, explanations, a whole nine yards. And today, my team just texted me for your listeners if you use the promo code live free. Come on, man, come on, man. This is gonna be good. Come on, man. 50% off. Woo! Hey! Let's go. All right, man. It's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be epic. Now, let me back up, Ryan, because honestly, dude, I wanna try to help people who are listening and like, ah, I'm with them, but I gotta hang up, man, because I'm seeing a lot of bad things. There's just some bad people on the right, too. You guys are acting like it's just, everything's pure on one side. 100%. And then it's all impure on the other side. Let me just say this. Some of the most corrupt, godless, lost people I have met have been at Republican conventions. Okay, so let's talk about that. Well, hey, guys, as you know, Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know Christ, live free, and change the world for God's glory. But here's the thing. Movements, by definition, move. And so if you're not moving, then the question is, are you really being a part of the movement? In fact, somebody once said that too many churches are like football games, 22 people on the field in desperate need of rest, being watched by thousands of people in the sense and desperate need of exercise. Hey, listen, we refuse to be a church like that. And so if you call Lake Point Church your home church, and if you have not yet joined a serve team, I wanna invite you to take your next step right now. Text the word serve to 20411, and we'll help you find your spot where you can serve in person or online on whichever serve team you are being called to serve. Hey, thank you for being obedient to God's calling in your life, and let's keep doing this together. So I mean like, Christ's conservatism helps nobody. That's right, helps nobody. It is a big deal right here. So honestly, man, this right here is what used to trip me up the most. Ryan, honestly, you said something that made like 11 things click into place for me. So okay, for somebody that's listening, they're like, hey dude, I'm with y'all. But man, there's like corrupt people, and I just see bad people and stuff on the right. And then I see some, you know, seemingly kind of well-meaning people on the left. You guys are making it sound like, it's just, you know what? So Ryan, what would you say to that person? Like, you guys, it's not really. Both sides bad. Yeah, both sides. Yeah, two wings of the same bird. Right, so we will readily admit that there are conservatives who are sinners. All of us, we're all sinners. All of us. Yeah, all of us. Yeah, there are conservatives and there are Republicans who do bad things, who do sinful things for sure. We know that. But on the left, there is a sin and a commitment to wickedness codified in the Democratic Party platform. And so what am I talking about? There's a big difference between on the right, people who do bad things, versus on the left, in the party's platform, which is their written document, which expresses what they're committed to, what their agenda is, what they're trying to accomplish. They have written out in there things that are objectively no room for debate, sinful and unbiblical, that a Christian could not support in good conscience and be faithful to Jesus at the same time. So some of the big things would be like a commitment to abortion, funding abortion. Max boosting it, by the way. Yeah, if you wanna say it that way. Like cheering it as a positive moral good. Cheering it, paying for it, using tax dollars to pay for it, the Hyde Amendment essentially forces other countries to do the same as well if they wanna get free trade and federal tax dollars. Can I tell a story about that? Yeah, go ahead. All right, let me, I'm sorry I'm interjecting. No, no, do it. So dude, we had a, this is no joke, we had the pastor of the largest church, I think it was Peru come and speak at Lake Buenaventura. It was leading up to the 24 election. And this is when a lot of these dominoes start clicking my head. And he goes, hey man, this whole conversation about USAID was coming up. And he started explaining to me that in his, in his South American country, is a very traditional country, very traditional. So traditional family, man, woman, marriage, the trend stuff was like, up to everybody. And he was like, dude, you know what's happening is our government schools all started teaching that. And he like, with kind of it was half joking. He was like, hey dude, and it's because of your country. And I was like, what are you talking about? And he started explaining that we give that country, I think it's billions, billions of dollars. This was happening. We gave him billions in USAID and he said, what happened is that the previous administration literally told them a prerequisite to you receiving our foreign aid is you have to align with these ideals that are considered moral things for our administration. And they required the public schools in this country who all the actual citizens hate and reject those ideas to start teaching all the LGBT and all the things. And they were forcing it on the nation in order to receive public assistance. And honestly, it was one of the first times in my whole life when I went, wait, are we the baddies? Yeah, yeah. So you keep going. So that's one. So abortion is a huge one. And then LGBT, what the Democratic Party platform expresses it's committed to is LGBT quote unquote rights, transgender rights, things like same sex marriage. The Equality Act is really wild because it forces health providers to affirm gender, gender affirming care and support that. By the way, if you don't know what he means by quote unquote gender affirming care, is if somebody wants to self identify as the opposite gender, opposite gender, which by the way is a biological impossibility and it's a rebellion against God's created order, then what you mean by that is that provider has to affirm them in that thing that will actually, we know that destroys them. That destroy, I get emotional, that destroys you and your children. So that's what you mean by that, for people who didn't know, you keep going. And they have policies that essentially make it impossible for Christians to object to those ideologies as well. The Democratic Party platform also is firmly committed to critical race theory, DEI we call it, what they would call equality. But for example, some of the negative things that come from that are things like prioritizing, appointing diverse quote unquote judges at all costs rather than the most qualified judges. Which sound, I think for most Christians at first, they're like, well, isn't that good? Isn't that nice? I mean, honestly, that's right, good. Yeah, it's unequal way to measure. So this is important. So what Ryan's talking about right there, this is really important. The biblical def, so here's what Satan does. Bible says what Satan does, Father of the lies, is he's really good at calling good things evil and evil things good. So what he does consistently is he packages evil things in good labels. So what he does is he's gonna package injustice under the label of justice. Why? Because he's a real good liar. Yeah. And so check this out, what Ryan's talking about is the biblical definition of justice. If you're not a Bible nerd out for 10 seconds and just go to a little website and Google the phrase equal weights and measures. That's consistently the Bible's definition of West justice. Justice is, it's Martin Luther King Jr. I don't judge you by the color of your skin but with the content of your character. Yeah, it's a good example of equal weights and measures. Equal weights and measures. I do not, when you're applying for a college admission, I don't care what color you are. I'm gonna apply equal weights and measures. That's what you're saying as far as those things are actually, some people I think are well-meaning but naive in supporting them and they don't realize, hey, you're actually supporting the advancement of injustice that's being packaged as justice. Well, that's true. I mean, I was at the White House a few weeks ago and talking with the administration and things they were uncovering under the Obama and Biden administrations. And one of the things they found was all of the medical schools that were getting dollars from the US government were requiring their medical students to perform an abortion in order to move through their clinicals. Bro, that's like a blood ritual. Yeah, that's crazy. Holy Moses. So what they found was all of these Christians were hitting year three, year four of their clinicals and like, wait, I gotta do what? You gotta do an abortion. I like to opt out, you know, conscientious and objective. Yeah, you can't. And so now it's forcing Christian medical students to either A, violate their conscience and perform an abortion or watch this, get out of the medical field. Right. So it's a, bro, that's sinister. So think about it. Over time, it screens out a Christian. So you put 10, 15, 20 years on that. That's why. The only people you have in the medical field are Godless people that have no problem with their conscience murdering a baby. That's wild. And so this administration, any school that was taking that money, boom, remove the money, remove the mandate, and that's been shifting now. But there's thousands of things like that that can happen at a policy level that can filter, shape, and change entire landscapes of cultures. And Pat was like, wait, what happened? Yeah, that's wild. We keep giving commentary. That's okay. One more thing would be like, in the Democratic Party platform, it talks about religion and a separation of church and state. It'll use a phrase like that, which you would read on the surface and a lot of naive people would just go like, oh, that sounds good. But when you actually get down into what they say in their platform, they actually wanna oppose policies that would allow our religious beliefs to override their anti-discrimination laws. Meaning, we think of things like a Christian school should have the option to not hire a teacher who, for example, is gay. And a Christian school should be able to say, hey, you go do you, but we can't hire you to teach our kids because your lifestyle doesn't align with our values. The Democrats, when they talk about separation of church and state, they actually wanna take away a church or a Christian school's rights to object to unbiblical practices based on their faith. So all that kind of stuff that we talked about being said, re-abortion, LGBT, DEI, those things are enshrined. They are codified in the Democratic Party platform. And Democrats- On the website. On their website. You can go read it yourself. It's their website. Democrats align with the party platform. If they wanna get funding, if they wanna have any kind of success in coalition building, they have to tow the line. So they very rarely, if ever, deviate from the objectives of the party platform. You can think of the party platform as like, this is our team's mission statement, basically. And in their mission statement, they've got, we are committed to sin. So when a Christian votes for a Democrat, they are voting for abortion, LGBT, critical race theory. They're voting for those things and the advancement of those ideas. Now on the other side of the aisle, on the right, there are no, last I checked, you know, this could change someday in the future, but right now, there are no policies in the Republicans party platform that would objectively be sin, according to the Bible. Some people could maybe debate some fine tune things, but it's not the same on the right. So yes, there are people on the right who do wrong things where we as Christians go, hey, that's not good, that's not right, you shouldn't have done that. But on the left, like the institution is wired and committed to doing what God calls wicked. So we are not dealing with two wings of the same bird here at all. This is not two sides of the same coin. Today, this wasn't the case 30 years ago. My grandpa voted for it. This is important what you're about to say. This is important what you're about to say. My grandpa voted for a Democrat and my dad and my grandpa would sit around having like good nature debate about some other policy differences, but these realities did not exist. Back then, you could be a faithful Christian, a godly man and you could vote for a Democrat in good conscience, but the Democratic party moved further to the left. So today, the way that things stand, a Christian cannot in good conscience be faithful to God and vote for a Democrat. Now that doesn't mean that we as, it's a very strong statement, but I would say it's indisputable. On the other hand, I think as pastors, we should be careful how far we take our guidance. I think one of the things we have to be careful about is, I don't know if as a pastor, I want to get into like endorsing candidates and I'm not gonna go. I don't, you may disagree on that, I don't. I don't wanna go to campaign for a guy necessarily or I would maybe do it with exceptions, but not necessarily as a rule. We don't want our churches to feel like this is a constant, overwhelming theme coming from the pulpit. Actually, can I pause? I want you to keep going. For anybody that doesn't listen to our preaching, like, I'm not joking. And honestly, this I actually may have failed in what I'm about to say. In my entire preaching ministry, I've used the words Republican or Democrat in one sermon ever. And it was my 2024 election sermon. So if anybody's listening like, dude, this is all these guys talk about, you simply don't know what you're talking about. Like when I stand up on the weekend, I'm preaching verse by verse through books of the Bible. I've been preaching for 12 years now. I've probably done seven or eight sermons that are related to politics in 12 years. And then a whole lot that aren't. There you go. So you were, sorry, I interrupted. You're just like, hey man, we're not talking about making it a disproportionate emphasis. This is, we talk about this, you know, in an episode like this, because this is the thing that a lot of pastors are hung up on. This is a lot of Christians have just been kind of indoctrinated into a wrong way of thinking. Like we were, when we were younger, that hey, those things are kind of like, oh, Christians shouldn't go there. We should focus. Kind of cringe. It's a distraction. It's going to hurt our ability to reach the loss. It's going to split my church and cause problems. So if I talk about that stuff, it's going to cause a lot of pain. But in reality, avoiding these issues ends up causing more pain. More pain for the church, for the families in the church, and for the society that the church is supposed to be in as salt and light making better. Now, so here's my objection to everything you just said. Here's an objection to it. Yeah, do it. All right, so this is a little sentence that was like an anchor axiom in Pastor World for a very long time. Anchor axiom. Ryan and Josh, the gospel is neither right nor left. And that is evidenced by the life of the early church. Here's what I mean, Ryan and Josh. The early church did not map onto a political party. Think about this. I won't say who I'm getting this from. The early church cared about sexual fidelity and the definition of marriage, and they opposed abortion and fantasies. Those things sound right, but politically right. But then Ryan and Josh, they also opposed racism and cared deeply for the poor. Those things map political left today. So Josh and Ryan. See, obviously the gospel is neither right nor left. And the church, you know, it just doesn't map onto a political party. Yeah, it's a false framework is what I would say. We as Christians, we should do both and all of the above. We should care about the poor. We should also care about the unborn. We should care about loving our neighbors, and we should care about the definition of marriage. So I wouldn't let someone frame those issues as being only right or left, but then I would disagree, you would disagree too, with the premise that the left actually does have policies that are in the best interest of the poor. I think the left's policies are actually designed to keep the poor poor and keep them voting for people who will help them stay poor. That's a big deal. So I'll tell you how I respond to that, and then you can riff on it if you want to, man. How I always respond to that is, hey man, that's a very unfair framing of only one side. So for instance, if you go to a person, a progressive person that aligns with their publicly stated policies, and you say, hey man, are you for the redefinition of marriage to include a quote unquote gay marriage, and are you for abortion? They're gonna say yes. If you go to somebody that's conservative and you say, are you for racism, and do you oppose caring for the poor? Obviously we're gonna be like, what the heck are you talking about? Of course not, of course not. Further, I would just do gently say this, but if you accept that framing, I think you radically need to investigate your assumptions, because very frankly, to what you said, Thomas Sowell would constantly say this, actually it's Milton Friedman. He said, you do not judge a policy, do not judge a policy by its intentions. You judge policies by their outcomes. And when you start talking about, there are legitimate, I just wanna acknowledge this, there are some people that they lean left genuinely because they care for the poor, and they, I think very mistakenly, they genuinely think this cares for the poor more. But very frankly, as I've heard it said, the best argument against progressive policies is progressive cities. And all of, notice this, if you disagree with what I'm saying right now, just pause and think. All of the cities and states, because you can give some stats on this, that they throw millions and billions of dollars to quote unquote, solving homelessness, have you ever paused to think about why are those the cities and states that end up with, oh wait, the most homelessness? Because you're not solving the problem, you're incentivizing the problem. That's exactly right. Which is why, first Thessalonians says, hey man, what's the policy God puts in place? If a man will not work, he's not eat. You wanna eat, you gotta work. You wanna eat? So God understood the way that humans are wired is incentives. I would also say, the man, honestly dude, the data simply shows that people identify as politically conservative, give three times more of their personal income to help the poor, than people identify as progressive on, three times more. So what I was, this is just simply, I love the person who said this, I radically disagree with him, it's simply a false framing. Well, it's a false framing, which creates a false premise, which gives you wrong outcomes. And so I agree that I understand, everything you guys have said, and I would only add that the left tries to solve legitimate problems with the wrong jurisdiction. Oh, this is good Josh. Right? Tease it out, this is good. Well, that's all I wanna say, other than the fact that it's not that conservatives don't care about poor people, they wanna create as much possibility for opportunity for any poor person to work and earn, so they can make their own living. That's actually a biblical response to the problem of poverty, as opposed to the unbiblical solution of poverty, which is let me punish the productive man, enforceably take from you, steal from you, and give it to the man who's lazy. It's back to what you said earlier, it's taking that which is good and calling it bad, and taking that which is bad and calling it good. It's taking that which is good, and saying you work hard, and so I'm not talking about you, but I mean, you know, like, like, you, yeah. If you work hard and you make money, we're gonna take it from you to give it to those who aren't willing to work, and because they had nothing. And just as a caveat, we all know there are people who legitimately need welfare. We're all for a legitimate safety net. Yeah, and this is- We're talking about people that abuse the system because of incentives. Well, like Driscoll's category is super helpful, righteous, poor, and unrighteous, poor, righteous, rich, and unrighteous, rich. So those who are rich who are unrighteous with it, they've gained it illegally or inscrupiously, they're those who are righteously rich who've earned it through wise investment and hard work. There's those who are righteously poor, catastrophic events beyond their control, and there are those who are unrighteously poor and willing to work. So I had a guy running for commission in my town. He went down to the drug, the drugies, and the homeless folks under the bridge in my town. Ask every one of them. Every one of them have family trying to help them. Many of them had owned homes or jobs, and to the man, their answer was, I like it better down here. I wanna be here. I get free food, I get free drugs, the city gives me needles. Why do I wanna leave? Does the city literally give me needles? No, that's unrighteous. Seattle? Are you kidding me? Seattle's hand-stabbed like candy. The state of Washington has six times more homeless people than New York City. It's insane. It's insane. So to your point is I would say the left's solution to a legitimate problem exacerbates the problem. It does not solve the problem. And as part of the entry of bureaucracy, roll around on the problem, not fix the problem, because you fix the problem, there's, you have no reason to be. Yeah. Right? And so if we keep the problem going, then I can legitimize me being here because I'm needed. And so there's all sorts of problems with the framing of that, the categorizations there, that create false premises, wrong outcomes, and bad thinking in the church. Let me rapid-fire some objections to what we're saying, and then let's land the plan on practicals. Okay? So number one, and I'll just do, I don't know how to do this without it. It is emotional. It is emotional. There's no way for it not to be emotional. But one of the things that you kind of get, I've gotten this with do's I love. Hey Josh, man, when you start making clear political applications, man, you're really hurting racial reconciliation efforts, because man, you're marginalizing minority communities that largely, man, a lot of those minority communities, they largely vote the other way. And so you're hurting the racial reconciliation efforts of the church, what would you say? Yeah, there are certain- Did you want me to respond to that? Look at me. I think there are certain- I don't think it makes sense to me. I guess, what would you say to that? Because it makes no logical sense. Oh, you start, you want- I'll start, yeah. I think there are certain groups who have unbiblical, ungodly allegiances to the Democratic Party. And they've been conditioned to believe that that's the party that's for you. And that's your only option is to vote left. And in all honestly, that's what really is a political idol. Is voting for this Democratic Party on the left, even though it promotes wickedness. You're placing a political desire and affinity above your identity in Christ. So if that hurts what someone would call an effort racial reconciliation, or I would just say so be it. So be it. Yeah. So first of all, this is- How would you answer it? Well, you probably got a better answer. I don't know. I don't like to hear you think because I don't understand it. Yeah. Well, what I would say is anytime I have this conversation with somebody, I feel like it's more awkward for them than me, just because my family. You know, everybody would know. I got two African American kids. Pretty reconciled. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty reconciled to me. Well, and honestly dude, it's like every conversation that makes, you know, you're kind of your normal white guy like squirm. Like I have those conversations every night at dinner. I mean like it is whatever is the weirdness and awkwardness around that. I don't got it anymore. Yeah. So it's just not awkward for me anymore. You know, what I would say is, hey man, we don't judge the righteousness or truth of an assertion by the racial makeup of who supports it. We don't do it. We just judge truth from error. That's right. And so what I would gently say to somebody is, you know, what I would say to somebody is, hey man, if 90% of white people in Georgia or South Carolina in the 1700s were pro-slavery, does that? Then they're all wrong. And I would say, well, then they're all wrong. Yeah. Everyone of them. And if in 1790, somebody said, well, yeah, but Josh, that hurts racial reconciliation. I would say, I don't care. Who cares? They'll be it. They're wrong. Yeah, I don't care. So what I would say is, Race bows to truth. Yeah. Let God be true and 90% of white people in Georgia in 1790 be a liar. That's right. We have versus for that. That's right. And man, you apply that to today. Man, honestly, I'm just like, man, I feel like it's honestly a bit of an, a bit of an, I don't know, just say it like, a bit of an immature emotional manipulation tool to keep people from just, dude, let's just be Christian men and women and go, man, we have a higher allegiance than anything else in our life to Jesus Christ. He saved me. Yeah. It's like, dude, I, I really don't care what percentage of people who look a certain way do something. It's just like, what's true and righteous. And I'm for that. Yeah. So I think about that. Not only that, it's all my black buddies. It's insulting to them. They're like, why would you, why would you think because of the color of my skin, I have to think a certain way. I'm submitting my race to the King. Because my, my worldview isn't driven by the color of my skin. My worldview is driven by what Jesus says is true. Yeah. That's the way it should be. Yeah. All right, let me wrap fire a couple others. I'm going to make y'all disagree with Billy Graham. I'm going to go, I'm going to bounce back and forth and you got to do it fast. Okay. I'm going to bounce back and forth. You got to do it fast. I'm going to give you Billy Graham quotes. I'm going to assume that I'm wrong. If I disagree with Billy Graham, obviously I'm not seeing something here. All right, Ryan, I'm going to start with you. So good. Billy Graham. Preachers can't be closely identified with any particular party or person. We have to stand in the middle and preach to all people right and left. I'm going to identify with whoever, whatever political leader is going to best represent Jesus and my faith and bring about the worldview that's most biblical. That's more important than keeping myself in the middle. Because the problem is trying to stay in the middle neither right nor left is that the window keeps moving to the left. That's right. So if you try to stay in the middle neither right nor left, the window keeps moving left. And in order to stay in the middle, you have to keep moving left with it. And that's one of the reasons why so many churches have become apostate and so many pastors have gone woke and so many Christians have deconstructed. It started with a good, a well-intentioned desire to just be neutral and stay in the middle. I'll add one thing, because I'm allowed to do that as a moderator. Yeah, do it. I'll add one thing. When Billy Graham said that, that was probably true. I was just going to say. In 1960, actually I heard this from you on a little reel, one of those dumb little reels that we do, is that, hey man, it used to be that the differences between the parties were like tier two and three issues. You know, that kind of thing. How many roads are we gonna build? Now, they're like moral doctrinal tier one issues. So what I would say is, when Billy Graham said this, it might've been true. It's a little different now. Josh, let me do another one. Billy Graham at the end of his life had a personal regret. He said, if I had to do it over again, I would avoid any semblance of involvement in partisan politics. What do you say? I don't know. That's how we got here today. Oh, what? There's a lot of pastors who did that, and that's how we got here today. Wow, okay. I mean, it's tough to comment on a man's quote without knowing the context, because I have a great amount of respect for Billy Graham. Of course, by the way. We all do. The man's a legend. Arguably the greatest preacher in American history. If anybody is interpreting this as us being down on Billy Graham, you're wrong. The reason I'm doing this is because of his statesmanship and his influence, and those are things that they've imbibed themselves because of our respect for him. They've imbibed themselves and are like, man, I can't disagree with that. That's why I'm doing this. I can tell it's making me uncomfortable. Well, not uncomfortable. I got to be in the East Room of the White House at lunch with Potus like a month ago, and Billy Graham's son came in and laid a hand on our president and prayed for him, and took a picture. I'm like, I feel better about the world when there's a Graham praying for my president. Yeah. And so I'm not sure what he meant by that, but I'm like, I disagree. Whatever, thank you for being involved in every president's life. Thank you for coming to the White House every time they called. Thank you for praying for them. Thank you for pastoring them. Thank you for speaking the gospel of them. So I'm not what's really means by being less partisan, but like Mike, that guy was like the least partisan guy. No, he would pray for any president. He would meet with them. So like, I'm grateful for his life. And I think that's like the earlier quote I think I would probably agree with because we don't primarily identify with a political party. Yes, important. We identify with King Jesus. That's right. And King Jesus calls all political parties and all governments and all magistrates to bow their knee. And my beef is with any magistrate, no matter what they call themselves, who wants to make me violate my Christian conscience to obey their law as if they're higher than Jesus. And they're not. Whenever a government starts acting as if they're God, I have a prophetic responsibility to remind them that they're not God. That Jesus is the King of all kings. That's great. And then let's go ahead. No, it's just a storyline of the Bible is government trying to replace God as God. And so when governments forget that there is a God who they're submitted to, they start acting like a God and that's bad for everyone. And so I wouldn't say I'm partisan. I wouldn't say I align right or left. Like I align with the kings. And I'll align with anyone who bows their knee to the king. Or slows societal decay the most to use your language. I think today we're gonna have a lot of pastors get to the end of their life and say, my greatest regret is not getting more involved. Oh, wow. Wow. Dude, honestly, this clicked for me and then I'm gonna move on to the last one. Is honestly, man, if you're listening to this and you're a little out on it, especially if you're younger, honestly dude, this changed for me when I kids. Cause all of a sudden I'm like, I have a duty and responsibility as a man to hand my children the best cultural inherits. I can possibly hand them. And I have a duty as a Christian to leave the future church in America the best possible conditions for disciple making the accomplishment of the great commission. That's right. I can't, let me throw one last one at you, Ryan. William, he warned that aligning faith with any with politics often leads to manipulation and damages the credibility of the gospel. What do you think? I mean, yeah, I think it could, but I do think that the answer is similar to the last point which is we're not trying to align faith with politics. We're recognizing, you know, God's word is our true north and we can look at God's word and what it says about right and wrong and we can objectively say, hey, you know, today one party one of the two major parties is imperfect and flawed and the other major party is absolutely wicked. So now taking God's word, what do we do? We teach Christians to apply God's word to their everyday lives. And that affects how they raise their kids and how they handle money and how they vote. That's what we're doing. We're not trying to get a certain party in power. We're trying to teach Christians to be faithful disciples and live every part of their life as if Jesus is their king and their worldview is shaped by that reality. Last one for all of us. Your normal pastor or maybe church member, they hears that and they're like, dude, honestly, okay, fine. The penny's dropping. All right, I get it. You're right. Okay. But they're like, dude, I don't know what the heck to do. And honestly, if I did what he did, I did what he did. I blow my church up. What would you say to that guy? Well, I would say it's probably false fear because I think if you do it in a wise way, in a biblical way, in a gentle way, in a clear way, in a biblical and practical and spirit filled way, the only people that you would drive away are the people that don't want that. Most people I think are looking for, would you help me know how to think about this? Because if you don't help them think about it, Tucker Carlson's gonna help them think about it. And fill in the blank with these talking bobbleds out there that may or may not be helpful. And so because of the access to podcasts and information, there's a more pressing responsibility for shepherds to protect their flock, not just from keeping things from them, because you can't, but by equipping them and arming them with truth. So they know how to think about everything in their life. And that's what it's coming back to. There is so much in the word of God, truth, goodness and beauty that applies to every sector and sphere of society. That's beautiful and incredible and amazing. Listed of the hard work of taking Christianity out of this one dimensional flat sinner's prayer and apply it to the three dimensional world we all live in, relationship to family and church and yes, politics. Because for me, I go out my door and I wanna do the most good for the most people in loving my neighbor as myself. And I immediately run into policy. And I immediately run into legislation. And I immediately run into politics that are hurting people. And so I don't wake up going, I wanna be political today, I wake up going, I wanna be a faithful disciple of Jesus, working for the most good for the most people. And there's wicked legislation and policy that are hurting people. So I guess I gotta get up there and address it. And so that's how I think about it. And I would just encourage pastors, I bet you'd be shocked. How many people would say, thank you, that was so helpful. I've been wrestling with how to think about that. And if you don't answer it for them, someone else will. I've got two practical pieces of guidance. First one is for Christians. Second is for pastors. For Christians, what do I do with this? When it comes to voting, I would just say to make it very simple, just look at candidates and what is their view on abortion? And then also look at what is their view on sexuality and marriage? Those are the most easy to identify issues where there is no dispute about how a Christian should think and how a Christian should vote. For a pastor who would say, hey man, if I started talking about these things, I'm gonna lose half my church and it's gonna be a total nightmare. I would say first off, I'm really sympathetic to that guy's situation as a pastor. But I think the first thing you gotta do is really stop and think about, if your church would be disrupted by clear biblical teaching, that is a problem. You have to first ask what caused that problem and who caused that problem. The thing that caused that lack of unity was unclear teaching, a lack of clarity, a loud division to grow. And the person who's responsible for that is the Bible teacher. So the thing to do is not to justify it, it's to repent of that failure. And I believe that God honors humbling ourselves. He said, if you humble yourself, I will lift you up. Humble yourself and just, I admit, I look back on some of my sermons from five years ago, even when I thought I was starting to get this and I'm like, I disagree with a lot of this now. Like I was terrible, I was still like really wrong and how I was describing these things. But if you'll repent of where you have failed to do your duty and you stop fearing man in your preaching, stop thinking about what people is this teaching going to upset and start thinking about how can I teach the Bible in a way that will please the Lord? Stop teaching with the fear of man, start teaching with the fear of God, lead your people towards what's actually best for them and trust God with the outcome. What you'll find is you lose the people who, honestly the people that you lose, it'll be addition by subtraction. But what you'll gain is you'll gain a church that is hungry for God's word, that loves Jesus, that's unified, and that's a joy to worship with. Trust God with the outcome for your church. Good buddy. All right, I'll finish it, I'll give two little practicals. One, just make sure the penny drops for you all the way. So Trinity, I'm gonna run through that data real quick. So man, if the last however many minutes, 90 minutes or whatever has not helped you get there, hey, God bless your heart. I don't know, you know. I don't know. That's a Texas way of saying you're a moron. Bless your heart. But seriously, like I just want, if that won't do it, let me just run through some data real quick. Okay, this is Ron Burge, these are just researchers. I'm just gonna read it. People who go to religious services more often are less likely to identify as liberal. I know this is awkward to talk about, it's just like, dude, reality is undefeated, let's just be honest about reality. This is a fundamental fact of American religion and politics. It's not just white people, it's every single racial group. Higher attendance, less liberal. It is a basic data fact that the more that somebody attends church, the less the more they move away from those policies. You go to the next one. Why is that? It's the next one. Ron Burge, share of liberal college students who attend a house of worship weekly, 8% for liberals, share of conservative college students who attend a house of worship weekly, 32%. So it's a 4x. 60% of liberals attend less than once a year, only 25% of conservatives. So you should start seeing a correlation which should make you go, huh, I wonder what the causation is. Basically what I'm trying to do is help you go, man, honestly, I have to bury my head in the sand to pretend there is not a correlation between these things. That's right. Let's keep going, go to the next one. If I, Ron Burge said this, again, this is an impartial data researcher. If I were to guess someone's religious affiliation, and I only get one question, it would be what's your political ideology? 12% of political conservatives' ideas non-religious compared to 50% of political liberals. So the data's starting to stack up. Let me explain, I won't deep dive this. What happens is this is not just political ideology, it's competing worldviews. It is a competition of worldviews, and what modern progressivism does is it installs a plausibility structure that teaches people and emotionally calibrates them to view many good things as actually evil, and many evil things as actually good, which over time makes them view the church, Jesus, the gospel, and Christianity as bad guys and bad things. If you allow that to progress wherever you are, listen, I love you, you are actively aiding the advance of things that will make the advance of the gospel harder wherever you are. Go to the next one. Okay, now, Ron Burge, I know this dude, via X we've interacted. So I asked him, I privately messaged him, hey man, but which way does the causation go? Because maybe Ryan is actually just, it's not that progressivism leads to lack of faith, maybe it's just that lack of faith leads to progressivism. Yeah, chicken or eggs. He says, I can't, I'm summarizing this, Ryan says, I'm gonna quote right here, there's a raft of social science research that points to the fact that religion is downstream of politics. So I know this is really weird and counterintuitive, here's why, because those political ideologies, again, they're installing plausibility structures that either make the gospel easier to believe and morally intuitive for a person, or make the gospel way harder to believe and morally oppositional to a person. Repulsive to a person. So the last thing I'd say, because man, I'm not an idiot, if you're a pastor, listen to this, and you're like, Josh is unself-aware, no, no, I'm very self-aware. I know exactly that I've been uninvited from conferences, I know what, I've been sent screenshots of what people say about me in pastor group texts, I know the guys who have said, man, I can't appear with Josh at conferences anymore, because he gets too political, I'm not an idiot, I know all these things. But here's my big idea, man, I care about the great commission and the future of the church and the cultural inheritance that I'll have my kids, more than I care about my reputation with you. And here's the big idea, man, is if you're gone, that guy's crazy, I would, every pastor in America and especially church planters, you know this, show me a map of the states and cities with the least churches and the least Christians, and then show me a map of the bluest cities and the bluest states. It's the same map. That's right. It's the same map. So man, as uncomfortable as it is for us, reality is undefeated, and reality is, if you want making disciples and the accomplishment of the great commission and building churches to get much, much harder in your region and for your children in the future, all you gotta do is let it go blue. Let it go blue. That's all you gotta do. That's right. You gotta get to another podcast, we're done here, peace. Okay. We're out. Peace. We're out. Peace.