Fashion Neurosis with Christy Turlington

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And how about your jewelry? I notice you have these really nice rings. Thank you. So, I mean, one is my wedding ring and my engagement ring. And then the emerald ring, my husband gave me for our 20th wedding anniversary, which was, I guess, two or three years ago, two years ago. And he is not a jewelry fan. And I'm really not a person who changes their jewelry very much. But someone had told us that the emerald was the, whatever, the 20th anniversary, I don't know, stone or gift, which I was happy to hear about. And I happen to have a very dear friend who works at Sotheby's and find jewelry. And he, I think, is the one who told us this. And then he said, Oh, you know, Eddie, I can help you find the thing. So he helped him. And I knew I would be in good care because my friend was an expert. And they took a while to figure it out and then find a setting and do the whole thing. And he gave it to me and I wore it a little bit in the beginning. And then I was a little bit worried about wearing it. And I put it away and then took it out for a year. And then I thought, if you get a gift and you don't want to send the wrong message, wear the gift. So I've been wearing it on this finger, which feels more casual. Yeah. But it is, it is a kind of big stone and it has a sound to it. So I do, I, I bite my cuticles and I pick at my cuticles. So now I have this ring that has become kind of a thing for my, my picking habit. Does it rattle slightly in its setting? Cause mine does. It does. And that made me worried, but I actually saw the friend that helped find it and he listened to it and he said it was fine, but it does make me a little nervous. Yeah. I've got a friend who's a diamond dealer and she, she shakes my ring occasionally and just to make sure, make sure it's kind of set. And then I remember, um, cause I wear my, I'm divorced now, but I wear my ring on my middle finger. So beautiful. And when I got it, um, I used to take it off at night and then my ex-husband said, um, it's very common to take your ring off at night. And I thought, Oh God, it was so funny. It was like, I really, it made me laugh so much cause he's so unsnobbish, but you know, he had these things ingrained. Like occasionally I'd set the table and he'd look at it and then look at me like, how can you put the knives and forks like that? It makes him sound like this kind of, you know, Cecil beaten type. He couldn't be more different, but I love it when people's, um, kind of ingrained traditions just suddenly emerge out of the blue somewhere. But you can't suppress them. Yeah. So anyway, it was quite nice to know that if you have a major ring, you just wear it night and day and that's where it belongs. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm more likely to lose something if I take it off. Um, yeah. And it's comfortable. It doesn't, it's doesn't, you know, I think if it, if it was like, if it felt heavy or if it felt awkward, obviously I wouldn't, but even earrings, I, I never change earrings really or very rarely. And sometimes the post kind of digs at the back of your ear or if you sleep on your side. Um, so anything that I wear, it's because it's comfortable. Yeah. And I can't lose it easily. And yeah, so it sticks. I also wear this ring on my pinky, which is relatively new when my son was going to college, the same friend that works for Sotheby's. Um, my husband had in his head that he wanted to do some sort of family crest for our son. Um, but we're not of any kind of lineage. Um, but just the symbolism of something and, and my husband's last name is Burns. He's Irish. And so there were a lot of existing kind of Burns symbolism that were out there, but he kind of played around with them and created his own idea of what he wanted. It was like, looks good. Fine to me. And so we made them for the four of us. So we each wear it on a different finger. I have it on my pinky and my husband maybe has it on as a wedding ring. I don't think he wears our wedding. He wears it on a necklace instead of on his hand. And then our daughter wears it, I think on the ring finger. And actually we don't let the son wear it yet because he will lose it. Yeah. You definitely lose it. And then the other one is just kind of a classic, I guess, Cartier. And I have two sisters. So I always liked, I've always put the symbolism of the Cartier three rings as me and my two sisters. Oh, that's so nice. That's lovely. It's kind of a mythical, isn't it? Yeah. Joining rings. Yeah. Hard to lose them. Yeah. And you're one of the legendary supermodels of the nineties. And you continue to be a source of complete fascination to the world. And I think I first saw you in Little Nells Club in New York. And do you remember that place? Oh, I love that place. Wasn't it great? I was speaking about it recently, actually, because I was always asking, was the last nightclub I went to and I actually couldn't remember. And I never really liked nightclubs, to be honest. But the thing about Nells was that it felt more like you're in a restaurant and there's maybe jazz playing and the food. I remember being quite good. And then if you felt like you wanted to stay out longer and have a dance or hang out longer, you could go downstairs. It was like an option. But upstairs was really the vibe that I liked. It was dark and it was it was very intimate. And if you sat around a booth with your friends, like, and then you sort of knew everybody around the room, there was always somebody interesting there. We're seeing Prince for the first time. Really? Dark booth there, Mick Jagger for the first time in one of those booths. So it was like, again, when I came to New York, I was, I guess I was about 15 or 16. So those years with Nells, I was probably 17 or 18. So for me, all of that and being so close to people like that was always exciting and fun. It was great because it was sort of somewhere between a youth club and a kind of nightclub because when you went there, everyone, everyone was kind of at ease. But then there were these glamourous people. And I. I think I saw you and Helena. And I just remember seeing. Some like some of you supermodels and you were just like the coolest girls at school and just so kind of, you know, devastatingly beautiful. And it was just really thrilling. But it wasn't like now where it's like. People are somehow separated. It was just like being in a. A fun place. And there were these fun people and. It was it was really she made a great atmosphere. She she really did. That bar was really special. And kind of had like the front part of the room was a living room. And I read this recently, I think in Keith McNally's book, that they put a cover charge at the door and everyone had to pay it. I don't remember that. I remember knowing the girl that sat at the door because there was a little bit of there was a little bit of exclusivity right in those days around nightclubs. There was a rope. There was a person at the door and probably on a quiet night, anyone could get in or if you probably booked a table at the restaurant, anyone could get in. But otherwise it was like you, you, not you, which is always kind of a. I don't know. It's sort of a silly thing. But each place had their own, I guess, system or their preference of who they wanted in all to have that effect inside, which would feel like, oh, it's so mixed and so wonderful. But it was like casting. Yes, casting. I don't remember being there with Helena, although I'm sure we were. I remember being there with Naomi quite a bit. Yeah. And then later on with Kate at the later days. Yeah. But it was, it was great. And we knew the DJ and you could kind of go and make your requests. And it felt, it felt as much like being at a house party in a way as it did, you know, having a night out, which was fun. Yeah, I wish it was still there. I know. And you were scouted as a model at 14 and. Yeah, I think I was 14. How interested were you in your appearance as a young person? Gosh, not at all, really. I mean, I'm sure it mattered a little bit because middle schoolers, like it matters, but I don't remember having any sense of certainly not style. But I really hadn't looked at magazines before. My dad was a pilot for Pan Am and one of the first trips I had to Europe with him on one of his flights was to London. And I think I bought a British Vogue maybe in the airport on the way back. And that was like this very special, like it was a shiny, glossy paper. And it was like a heavy quality. And I think that was sort of the beginning of being somewhat aware. Yeah. But on the other hand, on that trip, I think we visited Hamley's toy shop. So I wanted to get a doll. So like being in that weird in between stage of development. So a Vogue, a doll and Laura Ashley was a big deal in those years. So I remember having my dad take me to the Laura Ashley store. And I think the thing that he let me buy was like a knitted, like a shawl maybe. So kind of strange mix of things. But when I started modeling or when we were discovered, my sister and I were horseback riding and we were at the stable where we kept our horses. And my mom would sort of drive us around to our after school activities. And there was a photographer sort of standing by the ring, watching us in our lesson in between taking photographs of the sort of child actress. Not anybody of note, but someone who went to my school, coincidentally. And at the end of our lesson, he approached my mom and said, oh, you know, here's my card and I might be interested in taking photographs of your daughters, which I was telling this story recently. And I thought, if anybody said that to me about my daughter, I would like, I would run, you know, I would like, I would not tell my child. And then I would squeeze her in the car and I'd run. But my mom shared that with my sister and I and my sister was two years older and very excited by the idea. And so I don't know, a few weeks later, Luis went on a Saturday afternoon to this photographer's home and his wife was the makeup artist. And they kind of made us up, which I mean, again, this is like early 80s, not. I mean, honestly, the photos are horrible. They're like bad tastes, very, I guess, bad, keyboard and inspired makeup, big hair. And I remember just being really uncomfortable with the whole thing. The way that I looked, the way that he sort of directed me, which was, I mean, I think he said, like, look like a bitch. I was like, what does that even, what does that mean? I didn't, you know, I didn't even know what that meant. Crazy. So strange experience. And then a few weeks later, we were invited, I guess the photos were passed to an agent and we were invited to come and meet this agent. And when we went in to see her, my sister and I sort of sat there quietly and she looked at us very sternly and examined sort of our skin or how to stand up and turn around and all the things. And I was tall and she said, oh, you know, you could walk, you could work and then she said to my sister, I don't think you can work or I don't think you have the height or whatever is required for this. My sister, I remember being like, what? She looked at me like, you. I mean, seriously, like as if I was Drizella from Cinderella. But anyway, so I started to work a little bit then and just really for department store ads, black and white newspaper ads. And in the beginning, it was very age appropriate from like being a young teenager back to school, whatever. And then they started to book me for jewelry and cosmetics. And so I think that was sort of a moment of others at least recognizing in me maybe an opportunity to do it as more of a career than, you know, as a little side hustle as a teenager. What a career. Yeah. So I then at the time we were living in Miami, my parents both worked for Pan Am or my parents both had worked for Pan Am, but we moved to Miami from California for my dad's job as a 747 training captain. And in the four years that we were there, that's at the end of that is when this discovery happened. So we moved back to the Bay Area and then I sought out another local agent. But in the meantime, I had met an agent from France from Paris. And so I traveled to Paris the next summer with my mom for a month. And I didn't really work very much, but I had the best time. Firstly, because I had my mom to myself probably for the first time. And also Paris, I mean, we just would walk arm in arm and take the metro everywhere. And, you know, any of the appointments were just an opportunity to have an excuse to explore a new neighborhood. And it was so much fun. And then I stopped through New York on the way back from Paris and then was like my first time to New York. And I thought, this is where I want to live. I love New York immediately. I love the energy. I loved I loved those sort of bustling nature of the city and the diversity and the just the chaos of it all. And so really was motivated to find a way to stay here. And I have, it's almost 40 years later actually. Wow. Amazing. Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce and more. And the best part? 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You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app. When I used to walk down the street with Susie Cave, I would sometimes, I sometimes felt like her bodyguard because of the way men reacted to her beauty is that they had the right to invade her privacy because of that. And has your beauty ever felt like a burden? Uh, strangely, not so much. Not in like my day to day. I didn't grow up thinking of myself as beautiful. I definitely had in those early years when I moved to New York where I don't know if it was beauty as much as just like being a young woman and having the reaction sort of cat calls on the street and construction workers. And that's something that I hadn't been exposed to before coming to a city like this. But I've seen it in other cities or other places around the world or felt that kind of scrutiny. So I don't think it's as much around beauty as just being female. And that's just a very jarring experience. I remember going through phases where after, you know, just that feeling of like walking by a construction site and having like anticipating a sound or a hiss or a, I don't know, any kind of, I don't know, ogling or whatever might happen. And I remember at some point barking back at them because I felt like it was such an animalistic quality for someone to do. And I don't know that I, you know, I just, it was something that I was aware of, but I didn't like go deep on it until I had a child of my own who at 15 or so I could see men's eyes, you know, looking at her in that way. And I don't know if it's that like that twist of, you know, girl becoming woman, girl becoming woman, just, you know, this is like up for controversy at the moment with all the Epstein files and the definition of what is a child and what is a woman. But a young woman is a child. And I don't know that a lot of men have control over how they react to that beauty, innocence, whatever that is, it's like, it's, it's like, it's a, it's a kind of drug, I think. And I think people aren't even aware that they have that reaction. And they need to actually be taught not to have that reaction or to ask themselves why they're having that reaction. It's, it's a very strange thing to observe. Your question was about beauty. Yeah, no, but it's all part of, of it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. This, I suppose, what one of the, what shocked me about going around with her was how awful these, these really second rate guys would sort of like step forward and propose themselves. And then I'd get really furious. And then they call me a lesbian. And it was so, it was like, God, how did we get to this so fast? Yeah. It's like you're some kind of, well, competition or there's the reaction, which is like, I think when they do break out of whatever that spell is that they have. Then I think that self-awareness makes them embarrassed or there's some element of shame. And of course, then you have to not be interested in men or you have to, I don't know. I had that actually once with Linda Vangelista. So I went with her one time to visit her family in Canada. And she lived outside of Toronto in a little town. And I went for the weekend and stayed with her, her mom. And we went to, I don't know, a bar or a club or something there. And she was such a big star at home in her, in her hometown, in the world, but particularly at her hometown. And I remember someone was kind of, it wasn't, I don't know, it could have been in a girl, but they were just really on her and obsessed with her. And we were just trying to have a fun night. And I remember at some time feeling protective of her. And then they turned on me. They definitely didn't know who I was. And they turned on me sort of like, you know, what, like, you need this attention? Are you jealous? And it was like, no, I'm not jealous. I just don't feel like this attention is wanted and it's disruptive. And it's actually taking away from our time together and with others. Like it just felt like such an invasion of privacy. But I know with that, and I had that honestly all through school. I was always the friend of the girl who had all of the male's attention. Really? Gosh. You know, I wasn't particularly, I don't know, like I think about Susie as you describe her. And she's so feminine and so kind of angelic and her skin glows. And she's so womanly. So I could sort of see that. And I don't think I ever had those kinds of qualities. I don't think off of a magazine page that I sort of stand out in that way, which honestly is a gift to me. I'd rather blend in. I'd rather be anonymous, honestly. I think, I mean, you do stand out and you did, I remember, finding your photograph and just being completely spellbound by the kind of your amazing beauty. But you also have this, and I've always had this kind of aura of not almost like you don't notice or you're not aware or you're not overly interested, which is why I asked how interested you were in your appearance. You seem, there it is. And then you get on with the rest of your life. Whereas it's so interesting how the effect of that and how people sort of view you. And I mean, you know, everyone. It's interesting. You seem detached and other people are very kind of captivated. It's such an interesting thing, because like when you're out in the world and for the most part, people don't react to my appearance. And I would say that even as a younger person, which again, was fine with me most of the time. I think there was a moment where probably at the height of the sort of supermodel thing, you kind of couldn't not pay attention or not know. I mean, if you couldn't necessarily get the names right or who was who, there was some sense because it was everywhere. It was just like, it was a bombardment, I would say, during a period of time. So I think once people have a sense of like, oh, this is what society is saying is beautiful, then I have to, or I mean, not have to, but the people would be like, okay, then that's what, I guess, is beautiful. That's sort of what is. So there was like a, I guess I've always had a mistrust of who is dictating what is beautiful or anything really, but like what is beautiful and understanding that over time, the ideas of beauty or what represents beauty and in any era, it changes. It does, but it's interesting the way it's, there's something about all of you together. And also just watching that little interview you'd done when you did the cover of Vogue, was it last year? Oh, with Cindy and Naomi in the dark. And then you were all talking about, oh, do you remember we'd stay up till two in the morning and they'd, you know, and we'd have a nap in the daytime, but the sense of how hard, how involved you were in the pictures, how hard you worked and all that is, that was so interesting. And, you know, it wasn't just about a look, it was, you each brought this kind of story of how you expressed yourselves with everything you had. And you also give the impression of being quite a securely attached person in an industry that's riven within security. And I wondered if you'd found yourself being slightly a mother figure to other models, even though you were only a teenager. Hmm. I mean, I think part of that sense of power that we started to talk about, I think we all could relate to what it felt like to enter an industry and not feel like you have any power. But then after a few years and sort of navigating an unusual industry, right, you sort of build up some confidence or you understand like what doesn't work or you, you start to, or at least I did, and I think most of those peers did as well, where you start to think of like, well, what's not negotiable? What, like, this is, this is great until I don't feel respected, or this is great until I don't have any control, I don't have a voice. And so you kind of earn that right. And maybe you do as a young person or young woman anyway, and whatever you do. But in that industry, because we're so historically not a voice that's really at the top of the conversation in the food chain, I think that period and that sort of collective, us maybe coming up to that time at the same time, and then sort of using that in a collective way to assert some kind of power or not even power, but just like self-respect. Yeah. Yeah. Um, was, was an important thing. Um, and then, you know, some of those teams or some of the photographers that you had built relationship with, then you could feel comfortable making suggestions and people over time would trust you for, oh, you know, yeah, let's listen to what Christy has to say or what do you think? What would you, what would you wear with this or that? And that just felt like after trust is established that you could start to do that and then say like, oh, people took me seriously. They actually went with that option or that thought or that idea. And then that felt great. It felt, it just feels good to be a participant in whatever you do. The second part of your question was not about that though. And I'm not going to remember. There was a bat, whether other people turn to you for a kind of stability type of reassurance I've heard over time, I didn't intend to do this exactly, but I, I definitely wanted, I knew what it felt like to be lonely in the industry. So you could kind of see the people that didn't ride away, kind of feel like they could fit in. So whether that was a young model or a makeup artist or any, I mean, a style at anyone, if I saw someone that felt uncomfortable, I guess I would kind of be friend. And maybe there was a moment of, as I felt a little bit more established, and I knew that I could have some influence that I could take somebody under my wing and that that could be not only helpful for them, but kind of help initiate them. Again, I don't think it was very strategic or that I put a lot of thought into it, but I can think of many people that I did that with or I've been told and in retrospect of like, oh, you know, you sat in my chair when everyone was waiting for the main makeup artist and then other people sat in my chair or like those little things like that. That makes me feel good because when you think about how you can show up and, you know, be a kind person in whatever environment or whatever field you're in, like, we all have the ability to make those choices and to do that. And so it feels good that even in a time where I was maybe more self-absorbed at an age than I am now, that I stepped out of myself to be able to think about other people. Yeah. Because Kate Moss said that the hairdressers and the makeup artist have your back and I wondered who were your guardians in that world? Yeah, definitely hair makeup. Early days, you know, I became very close friends with Francois Nars and Orbe Cannellis and they were kind of a team that worked closely with Steve and Mizal for a period of time. And before that, it would have been like Mary Greenwell and Sam McKnight. And, you know, there definitely was this like, I mean, I guess you kind of create like a little mini family. Yeah. Somebody's mom and somebody's dad and somebody's funny uncle or whatever. You do find this like there's this little family energy that happens, especially when you travel and, you know, just human dynamics where people kind of play out certain roles. Kate, I love Kate from the moment that I met her. She was just so much energy and so like fun. And do you remember when you first saw her? When I first saw her, I think the first time I saw her, we actually maybe shot together, maybe the Korean Day images probably from the face. I remember, you know, this amazing face and this bone structure. But this kind of, again, probably to the point I was making earlier about innocence, there's this like you're drawn in because there's this innocence that she exuded. This open beauty. This like just, it was so fresh at the time coming out of certainly my peer group and that change in fashion in the early 90s. It was just like, like we all were drawn to her. And then we did a beauty story, I think for Harper's Bazaar. I remember her showing up or maybe I started and she came in with a little suitcase, like a little tiny bag. I think she'd been sleeping on the couch at Susie's actually during those years. Little t-shirt and jeans and sneakers and little suitcase and, you know, very like, so like she, everyone describes her as being small. She's not as small as people made her out to be. But there was something small in her demeanor, you know, something, and I don't mean small in a, no, she had this, but she just felt, you know, they're going about the wave, but she did have this wave-ishness. Yes. Kind of childlike. Yes. And the smile and the energy and like agility and yeah. Yeah. The giggle and the teeth. I mean, everything about her, she just, you just wanted to like hold her. So I remember seeing her then, I think the next time Naomi had kind of kidnapped her. They did some job together in Spain and Naomi and I were heading to Dublin for a wedding and I see them in the airport in Paris and our connection. She's like, I've got her. She's coming with us and she came with us and we spent the next two days just having the best time. We went to this wedding. We then were bonded from that point on. We flew back to Milan, then spent every waking day together. She stayed in my hotel room. We went back to New York. She stayed in my guest room in New York. I just, I loved her and I did have a feeling of wanting to protect her honestly. Yeah. I know. Five, we're only five years difference, but at that time, I think 19 and 24, I felt like, yeah, I feel like she needed caring for her. And you and Naomi were roommates and when you were 16 and she was 15, I wondered what kind of things you were eating. What did you eat? Well, we met in London and then I had moved into my place, actually a little bit older, but we met around 15 and 16 and then a year or so or two years later, I moved to New York and was encouraging her to come to New York. I remember telling Steven, Maizelle, wait till you meet this girl. She's so much energy and childlike too, in a different way from Kate, but in those years, so different than the Naomi we've all come to know and like, revere, this Naomi was like only a smiling face and she was so much fun and up for anything and sing to everything and perform, you know, all of the stuff that she'd kind of grown up doing in her performing art school, like all of that was still very fresh and she'd get on a stage and she'd start laughing and she liked to entertain. She just wanted to tap dance and sing and we'd make her run through the list of her credits and she would go through the list. There's the quest for fire, you know, Shiffy Kid, like these like, and I can remember the names, I don't even know what she was in them, but I remember her list of things that she'd done before the age of 10, the culture club video, like all these things. And so when I said, come to New York, stay with me, I was living in this kind of large-ish loft apartment that was very empty and I wasn't home a lot and I was as lonely. So I was like, come, come stay with me. Or when I would go to Europe, I'd say to make a bar as her friend, come stay in my hotel room. Like there was something that you just wanted to have another human. So she came and lived with me again, maybe for a year or a year and a half. We barely crossed one another, honestly, but the times that we were home together, our fridge didn't have much, like a lot of hot sauce because Naomi loves good hot sauce and she would make like, you know, she would make a good English breakfast and egg and always had like on a Sunday, like the music going and she had something very kind of homey and sweet about her as well. So such a lovely thought these are, you know, teenagers like sharing together and looking after each other. I remember us going shopping for our apartment. We went to like Conran's at the time, which was just kind of had come over here, but we went to our little Soho Conran's and got all of our, you know, bath mats and, you know, bins and things. Like say we had that kind of funny roommate moment. I mean, it was the closest to having a roommate, like a true, like a college roommate as I've ever come. So it's fun. Complex and unprecedented, the Spanish authorities are calling it. Passengers who'd been stuck aboard the Hanta or maybe Hantavirus-stricken Dutch cruise ship disembarked in the Canary Islands this weekend, prompting the highest stakes game of where are they now since maybe COVID. Some of the evacuees, American and French, have since tested positive for the virus and yet public health officials seem remarkably calm. We do have one individual who was taken to the biocontainment unit early, early this morning, and we assess that individual. They are doing well. Possibly because this is not the one to freak out over. Today Explained drops every weekday afternoon. Okay, so today we're driving to Southern New Jersey and heading to a data center. A couple weeks ago, I read a story in NJ.com and it was all about how there's a data center going up in Cumberland County, the poorest county in New Jersey that's receiving some community pushback. And this immediately got my attention because data centers are going up all across the country. I feel like we should be hearing politicians talk more about this, but we haven't really heard a consensus. Are data centers really a necessary evil? Let's find out. This is technology we've never seen before. Right. Experiment. We're going to experiment down here. And where are the getting pigs? Right. And where are the getting pigs? Exactly. Exactly. One thing that happens in this country is there's no planning for the future. Is it benefiting people or is it benefiting the elite and the money that's going into their pockets? This is not about abstract politics. It's about people's everyday lives. That's This Week on America Actually. Because you said walking runway involves a particular kind of vulnerability that's on show and you said you didn't enjoy it and I wondered why you didn't enjoy it. I guess I was probably on the shire side, if I'm honest. And even in the very like New York at the time, the shows were so like kind of boring and downplayed. Yeah. That was maybe more comfortable for me. It was a smaller space. A lot of the New York designers would do multiple shows. So even if there was a little bit of nerves the first time and you do it two or three times and then you're like, okay, you would got to know most of the people who the buyers and editors and they would always be front rows. He always had familiar faces and the clothes didn't feel very elevated. So you didn't feel uncomfortable walking in like a loafer or a flat shoe at a Calvin Klein. You know what I mean? It just felt very, I don't know, not very glamorous. I guess there were a few that maybe stood out at the time that were more. When by the time I got to like Milan and Paris, that was just such a whole different level. And I think the venues and the dress rehearsals and the run-throughs and the music and the lights and the John Galeon, I would whisper in your ear and put a character, you know, that all was kind of overwhelming to me. I just felt, I felt more myself in a more quiet, more intimate, more controlled environment. And others, Kate included, who I think she could be comfortable in any environment. I think she did really well in those smaller, intimate kinds of environments, but also not shy on a stage and not shy of a character. And Naomi certainly, the bigger, the better. I just never, I don't know, I didn't have that. I don't know if I would, probably I would feel less like myself if I didn't recognize myself in the mirror. I kind of didn't know who I was. Because you had a great walk. I mean, I was watching, you know, the Sachi and things and you just, you know, you were so amazing. And gosh, I feel like it's the same walk. It's like whether I, whatever I was wearing, I always, there's like my left hand swings a lot. And the other one doesn't. Again, not conscious of it at all. And then we always would have like you turned the right. You turned, you know, like we would do like a mid runway turn. It was kind of of the era and I just would follow who was ever in front of me. And if I walked fast, which I was known to do, Linda used to call me Turley TV, TGV, because if we were at a double, I would be so fast because I just wanted to get off the stage. And again, not conscious of it at the time. I knew I didn't thrive in the environment, but I also didn't feel like it was obvious to everybody else that I didn't. But actually, I think the speed of it. And then I remember when that, when the times changed a little bit. And everything was like more pared down and way fish and like take off the makeup and Guido hairdresser would say, okay, Christy, no hands on the hips. No, and it was funny because I didn't really fit in that category either. But I definitely grew up in the shadow of that. And so I knew exactly what he meant. I mean, we would literally take off layers of a coat, a glove, an unbuttoning. I mean, there's a lot of things to remember out there and then how you're going to hold on to them and then where you can turn. It was a lot. I love, and the few times over the last few years that I've done a show, one look, it's amazing. It's all done in like eight minutes. Like everything about it is efficient. And even if there's any adrenaline beforehand, it's like, it's done. It's over. So much nicer than like an hour and you're there for a day to get ready. And then you have a rack of 10 things and you run back and you have to like, people are pulling you out of your clothes and you feel like a car being changed out of its wheels on like a Formula One. Yeah, all of that energy just wasn't, wasn't for me. It was so different in that way and all that. I remember, you know, that whole Sanaranda hands on the hips, gloves and, I mean, I was completely fascinated by that. And then suddenly it was, don't smile and, you know, no eye contact. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. I did do Sanaranda once or twice, met him. I mean, I'm so grateful to have had that opportunity, even though he wasn't himself really in those years, but that's sort of the, the mystique around the atelier when he would come in at the end and everything was done. And then there was just such a seriousness and composure around everyone, just the seriousness and the white coats and all of that. So I'm glad I got to experience some of that. Other people that were of that era, but had such a light kind of energy, the atelier just kind of, it sort of, I guess, embodied the person in it. So Carl had a very like relaxed energy, even though it's a lot of energy and anxious, but there's a million things happening at the same time. But like the room was warm and you came in and it felt like you could, you could be yourself. And you noticed everything and you, Ms. Trillington, Ms. Trillington, what would you like to do, Ms. Trillington? And he'd send you flowers in your hotel room and he was just very personal notes and so warm. And I, I was not an exception. I think he did that with everyone pretty much. He seemed so modern in that way of like wanting to be friends, wanting to learn from all the young people around him. Yes, curious, you know, what are you listening to and where did you come from and where you been? And yeah, that was a turning point, I would say, but maybe he was always that way, but definitely in, in, in those early nineties where there was like an accessibility to him. And a lack of pretension. But he also wanted you to be on your toes. Very smart, very fast. And he wanted to talk culture and theater and music. And if you looked at a bookshelf, a book on his bookshelf, he'd say, take it. Do you like it? Take it. Very generous. Yeah, because I heard that he would give people reading lists. And so I suppose he could share all the discoveries and things. Because I used to work for Vivian Westwood. And I remember seeing the show that you did in Paris where Naomi gracefully tumbled off her shoe. And I'd already left by then. But I remember thinking how, how the, I remember someone describing you as the most classical beauty and how you suited her radical, the radical beauty of her clothes and the combination of you both was like sort of like everything that she loved about the 18th century and punk rock. And you, you really embodied that in the most extraordinary way. And when I talked to Sam at night and he described doing the hair for that and the Vivian wanted it to be like someone had had had their hair caught on fire or something. But I went, how did you find working with her? And did she tell you anything? She was amazing. I don't know if I can remember the first time that I met her, but I remember in those days we had a facsimile. Yeah. Remember her sending me a letter, please come to the show. Maybe I did one show. And she was like, please come this season. She's like, Oh, I was in, I was in the National Portrait Gallery the other day. And I saw a painting and it looked just like you. It was Girl with a Irmin. Oh yeah. And she sent me a print of it. I mean, just a museum shop print. It wasn't like anything fancy, but I wasn't familiar with the painting. But of course I was like, I need to know what is the girl with the Irmin? What does she look like? And I realized that I think it was the Irmin. I think I look more like some sort of strange feline-ish creature than the girl. But it was the ultimate compliment to come from her that first of all, that she was thinking of me in the museum or that she saw my face in someone from another era. And I loved, I loved working with her because the clothes were so beautiful, but I loved her sense of humor and the cheekiness that she had. And, you know, there were not so many women. And there was something special about being in the space of a woman. And also just, again, the energy of that space and obviously, you know, from having worked with her, others that are photographers who grew up in that environment, people just talk about how unique that was. Also, she really created, I guess she would be an exception. There were like those kind of runway moments, but there were also that picking the perfect space and the little settee and the little chair and then your look and that your hair is on fire or whatever it was. The show you're talking about with Naomi, when she'd had that fall, that is one of my favorites. I was wearing this beautiful yellow dress. So stunning. And we had our faces that were powdered white. But I remember when Naomi had that fall and it was everywhere in the press. And obviously, it was my biggest fear to fall, especially in shoes like those. And so it was like one foot in front of the other being as mindful of your steps as you possibly could be, but terrifying. And then when Naomi fell, who's probably the most confident on her feet, it's like, this can happen to anyone. But yes. And then she made some kind of amazing insurance campaign out of it. It was like, that's how you fall and you get back up again. I must say she made falling down look like the most ravaging thing. You know, it's just like kind of an incredible deer that just arranged her legs. And then she laughed. It was so beautiful. That show was incredible. You were, you were all so, I just felt so happy because when I'd worked for Vivian, I'd, she had, it was a point where she everything had stopped and her Malcolm had split up. And she, he'd really been very adversarial and hostile. And then she, she started again from nothing. And just made these things of such exquisite beauty and, you know, the arm in those little fake fur capes that we would cut out black fur and inserted cut a little hole in the back of the white fake fur and put it all in and have a ribbon and, and so watching that show and seeing you embody her, you know, this thing that was in her heart from looking at all these paintings and reading all these books. And, and then it was just the most, you know, talk about radical beauty. It was just devastating. It was, and so exhilarating. Yeah, I loved it. The pieces that I have, I have a few pieces from some of those collections, nothing like a gown. I don't really have many occasions. I don't think to wear them, but they really felt incredible. But I have little vests and there was the, the kind of corset with Queen and it had like the pierced nose. And like these beautiful tartan vests and like the pieces that I have are like treasures. And my daughter, when she was a teenager and sort of started to care about anything from my past and kind of dig into my, my closet, that was the most exciting find for her was the Vivian stuff that, like that was the, of all of the things that brought about the most joy and the most excitement. And it was so fun to see that Vivian, you know, lives on, but that she has had this whole resurgence amongst young people. And I think it's that, it's like that exquisite beauty, but as you were saying, that punk rock, because she was always like such a deep part of that also. And I think that juxtaposition, I don't know, that corset, I remember her making that for the first time and thinking, I mean, who's going to, I mean, I was so shy and so kind of prudish and introverted. And there she made this thing that squashed your breasts and brought them up under your chin, even if you barely had anything. I thought, who's going to wear that? And I saw everyone, they were like, Oh my God, I'm going to be like this because it wasn't just, it was so much more than sexy. It was like sexy and like Joan of Arc. It was so powerful and independent. It was such a great work. And it was comfortable weirdly. I think there are some corsets that, I mean, I'm sure you couldn't breathe to sit in them, but there was some flexibility in them. And they weren't constraining. They actually were, I had like a great little kilt. Those kilt. They're so good. A kilt that I wore with that corset. And I remember being like so comfortable and so confident in it, because it also, well, like, yes, it did sort of push your breasts up. You also felt kind of like a tomboy at the same time. That's exactly it. Yeah. That's so true. Because you see those, you know, those kind of ravishing women and then there's, you know, someone in a powdered wig looking like really cool on a horse and going to the, in the battlefields and it's a blending somehow or other. And you said Stephen Misele was one of the first photographers that made you feel like you had something special to offer. I wondered, what did he bring out in you? He was very silent as well. You know, he, I think I had, first of all, a big crush on him. And I just thought he was so beautiful. And I love the work so much. I'd sort of cut out pictures, went after I had started modeling and started to pay attention and look at some of the more like the Vogue Italia and French Vogue and British Vogue. His pictures always stood out to me, like those pictures of Jenny Howarth with the bleach buzzed cut or Kim Williams. Just these women that I found so beautiful and androgynous and cool. And so to get to spend time with him and work with him was really special. But then he just treated me like everyone else. He treated me like, you know, what do you want to do? What do you want to listen to? And I loved that as I just like felt very seen by him as a young person, even if I wasn't shooting with him on the day, I would go after my job and come over and just hang out, just to hang out and chat and gossip and, you know, be silly with. We played a lot in those days. Like we, he would say that you kind of come into the studio not really knowing what was going to be like now there's these like mood boards and everyone's got their research and it's all which is nice too. Like there was a lot of there's a lot of references. We just didn't have them all there in the room to be drawing from. We'd watch a lot of movies. We liked we would do movie nights and watch like Anna Mignani and you know, I just learned so much from that group in those formative years. And then we'd get into the studio like, let's play. Let's do an eye like this and a mouth like this. And Steven would get in there and actually do your hair or do your eyeliner. Like he loved to hands on and he loved models. That was the other thing. And a time when I mean, sometimes depending on the room, I was like, yeah, fashion model. When I was a student and I was modeling on the side, I could say that but as soon as I was like just a model, I didn't like that. I didn't feel like that felt like it represented me. Yeah. But being around him and seeing his reverence for models of periods of time that came well before mine, my time, I kind of made me think like, yeah, what's wrong? What's wrong with the model? Yeah, exactly. What's not okay about this? And you know, again, I don't know if it's if sort of societal pressures were kind of projected on me to make me feel less than in that way or relationships that I had at the time making me question it. I'm still glad that I went on to pursue other things. But I remember that moment of like, why, why, why could that not be enough? Yeah. I mean, I loved, I met, I got to meet not through Steven, but I came to love her through watching movies with Steven like funny face and we all love Doveema and her character because she's so funny. And I got to meet Doveema at some sort of Ford model agency dinner. And she did the famous elephant in the gown in front of the elephants. Was that Avedon? Avedon, exactly. And she was so stunning. And she was the most like elegant, long, limbed, long necked creature. And then she's this funny parody of herself in funny face where she is the model. And of course, Audrey Hepburn is the not model, but then gets discovered. And so just sort of seeing the juxtaposition and she kind of comes she does this. She's just sort of very like, you know, it's always like elephants, that this that but she had this voice, not in life, but in the movie, it was like kind of Queen's accent. And it was it would throw you because you look at this divine creature. And then all of a sudden she's like, yeah, what do you want to do? Anyway, I got to meet her and she was incredible. And at the end of her life, sadly, she was working at Pizzeria in Florida somewhere. Never had any money. I don't think got have any of the proceeds of any of the images of those amazing Avedon photos. And that always kind of broke my heart for her, but just generally for the amount of people whom we don't know by name or by image, who contributed so meaningfully to this like important, you know, genre of art and fashion, don't have any credit or. It's like music, isn't it? Yeah, these amazing artists and they haven't got a penny. Yeah. I mean, the fashion industry can be ruthless. And but there's a lot of loyalty to and Mark Jacobs described you as being the first top model that really supported him in his career and that you'd bring your super friends, girlfriends to his shows. And had it had it it feel to be bringing someone's work to life in a show like that such an important moment. He's such a great designer. He's such a great designer. Mark, I think was probably one of the younger designers in that era. Like Mark felt like a peer right away. When I first started working for Vogue, I was like 16 or so. Mark was kind of just doing his sweaters as knitwear. He'd been working at a store at Taravari, I think, and then he started doing this little collection and then he became a little bit of a fashion darling and some of the editors or buyers knew about him and were kind of helping to get him out there. And I remember meeting him at a Steven shoot and he was having his portrait and one of his sweaters with a model. And I remember meeting him in the studio and I remember just being like, again, how to crush on him. He was beautiful. He had this long hair and he was just like he was like this New York, both of them were these New York figures and kind of icons to me. And the fact that I got to sort of grow up with Mark, so one of his first collections that he had when he had his own brand, I did that show and it was like an office room. It wasn't even in a showroom. It was literally they moved out desks and made a little thing and I remember the shoes were coming from Japan and they were late and all the sizes came like really big and he would also give us clothes in exchange for doing the show. And it felt fun. It felt like being with a student or someone that was going to have a really big future and that was just exciting to be with. They were amongst at the time. And then just to getting to see that that continued to evolve. So I'm glad that he thinks of me in that way. There were other models. Each designer kind of has their troop. And so he had his models and I love how designers can be very loyal to their fit model or their person. That was the very first person that they tried this and that on and they would keep them. They would keep them to be in the shows and they would keep them more front and center in their collections long after others were dictating who they wanted. That always resonated and I don't remember the name of the model but I remember this sort of short haired kind of gamming girl that was always in Mark's studio. And I think that was really cool. Also to androgyny. I think a lot of his fashion over time even though it has changed and is so evolved now and I love how fun and playful it is. There was always like a bit of androgyny and I don't know. I guess I also felt more comfortable like in the pantsuit than I did in like something constricting and tight and long. Well he is good like that. He plays with identity I suppose in this way that's that you really respond to and you want to find out more and feels kind of feels like something that you've grown up with in a way that you're exploring and trying to relate to. This week on criminal a man leaves his girlfriend at the top of a mountain. He's charged with her death and then at the trial his ex-girlfriend testifies that the same thing had happened to her too. She screamed. She felt dizzy and you know at that moment she realized she was like completely alone. Thomas apparently left her. On our other show This Is Love a story of another couple on a mountain. There's no ledges. There's you're trapped. I had confidence that there's no way this many things can go wrong in a row. You can listen to both episodes right now on criminal and This Is Love wherever you get your podcasts. And you featured in Ricky Leacock's documentary Catwalk in 1995. It's the most brilliant film and he was a brilliant filmmaker and I was he did he ask you things that you weren't expecting because it's not really his milieu fashion but he's he's such an artist. I knew him very slightly and I even made him pancakes once. Oh sweet. Tell me more. Well he was he was married or very long term with my stepson's mother. So they came around. This must have been 20 years ago and I was on a macrobiotic diet and and my kind the only way I could get any kind of sugar intake was to make these gluten free dairy free sugar free pancakes with some apple sourcing. Anyway I made them for myself and he he said oh I like these pancakes and they sounded so dull but actually they were quite tasty and I always remember him liking them but it was it was yeah it was a great great film really good. It's so interesting because I don't think there was much of a premise for it honestly. He'd done he'd filmed the Truth or Dare doc with Madonna which was so beautifully filmed as well. It came to me that project through I guess Isabella Rosalini recommended me. Really. So they were trying to find a way in and I don't know exactly why we'd met but we didn't know each other well at the time. I love her. I think she's like the most beautiful woman in the world. Still like so beautiful but she had she was friendly with the producer of the film and I guess when they were talking about names and people to go to she recommended me and so when they came to me I thought well I don't really want to act. I was already kind of getting ready to kind of step away and like I already kind of knew like okay maybe I have one or two more seasons left maybe this would be a good thing to document. I also felt kind of like I wanted to I didn't want to show I wanted to show kind of more of the sort of whole side of the industry because as much of it is can be rough and can be tough and not welcoming or maybe exclusive or maybe can be cut the road in some ways. There's so much that's really fun and relationships are deep and there's that playfulness occasionally. I just wanted to show kind of like what it like what does that feel like. Yeah. Not that I again had a lot of control over what they saw or what they captured but they did come with me actually the trip that I mentioned coming from Dublin with Naomi and Kate the very first city that they came to join me in was Milan so when we flew in from that trip we arrived and they were there at the airport and that's when we started filming and you know after you spend like 24-7 you start to get to know is just two people on the crew really and they were with me from morning to night you know in the car on the street on the street and even if there might have been some awareness of them in the beginning very quickly that kind of fell apart but I will say that being with a crew and having a mic you know at lunchtime people would sort of after a while like disappear from me it's like I'm not doing an expose but I got that I'm glad that people were aware of it but I definitely felt like I couldn't fully be myself because people wouldn't couldn't be themselves all the time with me. Yeah. But just out of sheer hours they managed to get quite a lot that helped in the editing of the project the film sort of took a little bit of a turn in the sense that they were wanting to feature more of the bigger name designers probably to have more support or I don't know you know it's like to me I question it all I was like they didn't do as much about the asadine they didn't do you know like the smaller brands definitely were not and that to me felt like a commercialization of what it was and I thought well I didn't do this to promote Valentino and Versace I did this to kind of show the whole of it. Yeah. So I got in a bit of a fight with the producer and then I sort of walked away and it had a different name in the beginning so when it finished I wasn't thrilled thrilled with it but the footage I do love and now that time has passed and it's like a little bit of a I mean really it's a it's a really special piece of history that's been captured in that footage and so many of the designers are not with us anymore so I'm really grateful to have had it but yeah the experience and interestingly also Malcolm McLaren did the soundtrack and maybe I met him around that time but it was not very nice about me in the end. I think he said when I kind of dropped out of it was like wow this could have been an opportunity for her to like become an actress or whatever and I was like well that was never my intention like that was not I was not hoping this was going to be some launching off pad at all but there was like a little bit of yeah just not not kindness. Yeah that's really irritating actually isn't it. And the music is kind of annoying but it does get in your head. I don't remember the music I just remember like you said the footage was so great and you were so full of life and so intelligent and like focused and and then it was so sweet you know seeing Kate and Naomi around you and how you came together and what you were all you know working so hard and sometimes I think you're perceived or you were perceived as a good girl because you are a very you are a serious and thoughtful person and you're you seem to be good at holding your own you know at such a young age and in that documentary we see you kind of negotiating a contract and stuff and it's really impressive and I just wondered what the naughtiest thing you've done in the fashion moment is. I mean there was plenty of naughtiness I guess relatively speaking I was a good girl and I was a good girl in the sense that I am serious that's like my nature I'm a Capricorn I'm a earth sign I'm a like that's my true self but we had a lot of fun and I wasn't like you know if if people were going out I was going out I just would need that time in between I just didn't have the constitution to just like keep going and that thank goodness saved me frankly yeah but one trip that I had actually you spoke about the Naomi falling on the Vivian Westwood stage or runway years later I was I was working for British Fog with Mario Testino at this beautiful old kind of manor somewhere in the countryside in England and it was kind of a run-down manner so they were renting it out and you could sort of stay there in a hotel capacity or for shoots or whatever and so half of the crew stayed in this manner and half of us stayed in the hotel above the pub in town and I stayed with the younger set well actually I wouldn't say younger maybe we're some peers that stay in the house but we stayed out of there to have some space from our workplace one of the very first days that we shot in the house we were in like this one kind of cozy library space there was a fireplace and there was that photo blown up of Naomi having fallen in the Vivian Westwood show that's a strange photograph to have in the photograph you can sort of see because in the magazines or the taboids that covered it they kind of they were very discreet and protective but really in actuality when you fall and you're in a little mini skirt you know you're sort of exposed not fully exposed but you're exposed so in this photo it's the version where she's more exposed and I thought I can't believe that first of all that they left this here knowing that we're coming here today and that we're setting up in the space second of all that someone is selling an image like this to aristocrats for their private enjoyment I took a shot a sharpie off of a desk and I filled in her knickers to be like grandmother pants and that's one of the best things that I I mean I was like ah triumphs like what are the chances I mean I'm sure there are many more out there somewhere but I felt like how dare this person have this photo and Naomi's got me on her back and or at her back or with her back and I am not going to let someone have this and if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing does it kill your attraction to them no because I married that that person I don't think I'm as much of a fashionista or stylist person to be honest to be judging anybody else but my husband bless him when I met him what I loved is that he all didn't care and was very like so opposite of my industry and people I dated before not that I dated anyone who really cared about their fashion either come to think of it but I kind of loved that she's like literally rocking royal t-shirts and jeans and very like doesn't care and then anything that he did have that was on the fancier side was because he'd been given it or wore it for a film or something and so but then it would be like oh well this is a name brand so I have to hold on to it forever so I was like no no you actually don't have to wear a Calvin Klein suit from 97 that would be not the era to like hold on to forever maybe or whatever the year was and so over time still to the stay actually we went to dinner last night and he came upstairs and I'm always like uh oh and he actually looked great I was like oh he's like silver fox now he's got a beard he's got long silver hair and he he's like and he was wearing like a sweater turtleneck and a blazer and I was like actually this like combo of things was really attractive wow some days he come up the stairs I'm like no no no no you cannot wear that sweater with those pants those shoes whatever and I really am like I feel like it's my job to protect him it's like it doesn't have to be fancy it doesn't have to be thought through it just has to go with they just have to just have to live together yeah in like a world that they make sense in and he has no idea he's like he wants comfy which I want comfy too but he wants comfy in a way that it's like comfort definitely trumps style it's a good approach though it's protecting someone from these hideous clothes that make them look like the person that they may be aren't but yeah other people that are bold I I think I have more of a if I see when I see people wear really bright colors I'd never wear bright colors but I like them in the world I like seeing the person in the party that has the bright thing or the person that wears a bright red lipstick everywhere for me I like red lips but it's too much work to maintain yeah um so I can't but the people that put that much time and attention like they're doing it to be appreciated and so I think they deserve appreciation and you know you don't want to just like let it slide you want to be like wow that's amazing what you've done um whether it's for you or not for you um but I have an appreciation I think for people that that put time and attention or that just have that natural ability like you brought up Helena before Helena has this exquisite taste and like everything in her homes is like every little inch and detail is so perfect and it's something that's meaningful and she spends time and she's thoughtful and she cares and she goes through flea markets I don't have the patience or the attention span to do that I also don't think I love anything enough to be a real true collector of um I don't know if that's good or bad you spoke about attachment earlier I'm very non-attached to things yeah um which I could say is a sort of maybe a spiritual thing a practice but I don't I mean I'd like to think that's what it is but I don't know what it is I'm just not an attached person to things I think it's I mean it couldn't be good or bad really it is just what it is but I know what you mean about Helena everything everything she wears she does and how she is she's so beautiful and then those pictures of her going into the ice water oh I was just in Copenhagen actually for the very first time and she arrived when I was leaving so I didn't get to see her there but I feel like I understand her even more now because I've been there even though she has that juxtaposition um you know her mother is from Peru my mother's from El Salvador so we've had that shared bond and like a Latin mother grandmother lineage um and I would say that Peruvian thing is very in her as well like that's the other side of her right her world traveler her layers of sweaters and patterns and textures and things like that but I really think she's very Danish yeah and that that the refinement of an aesthetic yeah um yeah it seems on so many levels you know intellectual and tactile and how she actually is I am just rewatched the George Michael freedom video which you and Linda and Cindy and Naomi and Tatiana were in and it's really something and I was was George Michael around at all or involved because he's so shy I wondered whether how involved he was in he was incredibly involved really god so many of us were very close friends with her Brits yeah throughout our careers but certainly in those years and the first call that I had about it or maybe it came through the agency first and I was like oh music video not a lot of money which at that time was like it sounds trite but actually it mattered to go across the world for a day yeah so it's like oh is it worth that and while I love George Michael already it was sort of it was like but I need to be in the video to appreciate him not necessarily so it was really Herb kind of brokered it for us he reached out and he said oh you know I love David Fincher and he's directing this this this this video and he's in the middle of making his first feature film he's doing Alien 2 in London and that's what has to be in London and he's done all these Madonna videos and he's incredible and the lights amazing and you know you love him he's young he's so cool and so he talked to each of us separately and eventually we kind of like okay like if you're gonna do it I'm gonna do it and we kind of collectively decided like a favorite nation's fee to do it and it wasn't a ton of money but we're like okay it's fair and then we were off and we did the music was like not even out yet so I think I received the music like the moment that I got picked up at the airport and so I was given a Walkman and on the drive was like probably an hour or so from the airport I just listened to the music and it was it been a red eye flight and I got into the soundstage went into a motorhome which was on the set and then Guido was there and the makeup artist Carol and Camilla Nickerson was the stylist and listening to the music again through hair makeup then I met David Fincher who came in to talk I don't think I met George until I went on to the set but he was on the set he was looking through the lens and the camera he was very present yeah um everyone shot separately with the exception of Linda and I as we had one scene which is kind of a great scene but also a very interesting risky scene to do we had a scene where we were like blood sisters yeah we put our fingers together yeah which is a thing I grew up doing with my best friends and we were little but this is like early 90s HIV AIDS is a big thing again didn't think about the symbolism didn't think about really understanding even the words or the intention because I don't think we knew yet George hadn't spoken yet about why he chose to do that video the way he had or that album and what it represented in terms of breaking away from um his label and feeling like he didn't have choice and he wasn't a free agent and didn't have the freedom to be the artist that he wanted to become and I think also that like that fame on that level that only people like George Michael or Madonna experience you know something so different than any of us I think um but he was there for my scenes with Linda and he I think he really loved Linda really I think we all know now that George's gay was gay but we didn't necessarily know that at the time yeah or we didn't you know he hadn't sort of said that out loud I don't think um and so it was kind of funny because we're like I'm pretty sure he's gay but he thought Linda was just I remember us kind of joking around singing lint um Georgie Georgie putting pie kissed a love which is one of her nicknames and made her cry he didn't make her cry I think she loved the attention they actually ended up becoming I think quite good friends after um and we're talking on the phone all the time she did another video of his later um but I just remember thinking that's so funny George Michael has a crush on Linda Evangelista it was really really sweet um really really sweet so now we know on the flip side of this 30 plus years later is that he did he had a lot to say in the record and in that video and he in choosing David and in choosing all of us it was very specific what he what he wanted to do and I think he very much finished the edit himself I think he took it away from David Fincher I don't think David did the final cut and I'm pretty positive like George needed it to be maybe it's just what he needed to do at that point is like everything about it had to be his own and I think that was the final thing um and you know they've redone that song they've redone videos of that song with other models and I think is it um I'll get the name wrong not Robbie Robertson Robbie Williams he did it I think at some point um it just isn't the same it's not the same because it's not it's not George's wish he was also a very good singer and entertainer but he's not George Michael um and then when George passed at like 50 um I just remember it was around Christmas time and I remember hearing it on the news or whatever and I just remember being so sad and by that news um again not having been very close but having that tiny tiny um connection and knowing how meaningful it was for him in the span of his life and a turning point for him in terms of I think living his life on his terms um I don't know really touched me and yeah and I still will go through phases when I'm home alone and I want to play music but I don't play regularly where he would be a go back to maybe not freedom but like come on a different corner it's like you just want to weep you just want to hear his beautiful voice and cry I know he really he was such an artist and everything you've described makes complete sense because he was a perfectionist and you know the way he pushed the boat out just the way he made music and songs and broke away from you know his traditional background and all his kind of thoughtfulness about where he came from and so impressive and you you founded your only your own charity every mother counts and which supports pregnancy and birth around the world and was that after experiencing problems during the birth of your first child and I just remember I have one child and I remember after about 20 hours of labor I thought I just want this I just want to go home I want this to stop and then I realize I had no agency whatsoever and it was such a terrifying moment yeah it can be it really can be um I I for some reason many years ago before becoming a mother I imagine that if I I didn't like knew for sure because I already had a lot of friends who tried and had a difficult time so to me it wasn't a given that I would but when I met my husband and when I realized this was the person that I wanted to become a mother in relationship with I um I felt so ready you know I I had lived I mean I was 34 when I had my daughter Grace so I was I didn't feel too young I had had a long first career and I had done a few things after going back to school and got to sort of experiment with other interests and I felt like my life is certainly not over but I'm not going to enter this next stage of my life and feel like I'm missing anything or resentful because I don't have the freedom I felt like I'm so ready right now and so everything was really amazing like I had I had incredible options I wanted to do it naturally and without any kind of interventions or without medication certainly and but I was also willing to listen to my body and my midwife and if the situation required it I wasn't going to have to like be a hero and you know risk my life by any means but it all went like perfect perfect perfect Eddie was very supportive of what I wanted to do I had actually wanted to give birth at home and he was like maybe not home so we thought Little Birth Center is a good middle place at the time there were more of them there are like very very few now in New York the one that we chose is no longer but we chose this place which has had a few rooms and it was located within a hospital and so like if things go wrong you don't have to be transported and yeah you're just a lift away and again everything was perfect I was home as long as I could be and then just had to travel up the West Side Highway 15 minutes to get to the hospital and then when I got to the hospital I there was like a bathtub so I could kind of like I was fixated with water I just helped the time pass and it kind of calmed me down so I got into the tub and when I was ready to sort of push I got out of the tub I had this amazing midwife that I loved my husband's in the room like it just everything felt like perfect and then we didn't know this the gender of our child so I was another like who is this going to be and what's coming and so I delivered her found out it was a girl beside myself my girl name was always Grace like my whole life my grandmother's name was Grace and so met her bonding with her like all the endorphins all of the amazing feelings and then times sort of passed and like as they were cleaning up the room and there comes a fourth stage of labor which they kind of gloss over in all the childbirth education which is when you actually deliver your placenta which is the large organ-sized second birth essentially and so that wasn't happening naturally which can happen when you're dehydrated or exhausted or in my case it had it had grown attached sometime through the pregnancy into my uterine wall and so it actually had to be extracted and that had to happen quickly and had to happen manually so the physician who was backing my midwife came in to intervene they let me stay in the birth center and didn't transport me or make a huge like emergency kind of fuss but again my medication-free birth I didn't have any pain meds so all of this was excruciatingly painful way more painful than the delivery of my eight and a half pound baby there was a lot of blood involved because it's all vascular and so when that happened you know that's technically a haemorrhage I lost several liters of blood and fortunately didn't need to be moved to have a blood transfusion or have a surgery but it was all very confusing very painful and also like to go from feeling like like a freaking warrior badass invincible human female each for being like on my back not knowing what's happening being in pain being confused being scared but not from my life per se but just like in that position of not being in control and not knowing and I think in any kind of healthcare setting a lot of people feel that way like you give up your power you you don't understand your body or you expect somebody else to know better than yourself and I think that experience really I don't know it connected me to so many women and other mothers and other people who are in that position of not knowing and being in pain and being scared and not having the words and not having the ability to advocate for yourself which you know what you need or what you want next so I felt incredibly grateful that I had chosen the right people to be around me that I felt safe and that I could go home that day or the next day and I thought I need to do something I need to I need to share my story and I need to learn about I want to know other people's birthing experiences I want to advocate for more options I want to I want to I want to help empower more women and girls to have that I say girls because so many women that become moms are girls yeah not by choice not by yeah not by choice and so how how to inform and prepare more of us to have the empowering experience that I actually ultimately had even with that complication yeah and so I've sort of dedicated my life to that my daughter grace just turned 22 so I've been advocating since then but in a formal way really probably I mean my organization just turned 15 this year so every mother counts started as a campaign along with a documentary film that I made called no woman no cry which I made when I was a student studying public health at Columbia so I kind of went deep in I had my second child a few years later and then I thought okay I wanted a third child but my husband was like nope you're alive we've got one of each we're good and so I put all of that energy that I might have put into a third child into this next chapter of my life and my 15 year old child nonprofit is I'm ready I'm getting it ready to sort of like become its individuated thing it's it's it's thing that can stand without me yeah more and more but it's still it's an issue that I believe in so deeply and I I know that it's an issue that won't be solved in my lifetime and so I know for the rest of my days that I will advocate for this issue but I also it's it's exhausting to work on issues that are largely intractable because they are systemic in nature in terms of access and human rights and the things that are essential honestly to have good health and to thrive so there's a lot of things that I can't control um but I I'm deeply committed to doing everything that I can to ensure that more of us have a positive experience and not only survive pregnancy and childbirth but actually like come into their own in that next phase of their life because when you become a mother like it's it's transformative like it's it's it's like it it opens up so much capacity like capacity to love and capacity to feel and to empathize and it's not that you have to have that experience directly like birthing a human to do but it just happens it happens and what you do with that and how equipped you are to be able to take that that potential and make it something like truly meaningful we all have that that opportunity and I want more humans who feel that and have that connection and feel motivated to to do more because in you know people are quick to dismiss people um activism and advocacy in from fashion people but I I think that we're really good at it and uh because people in fashion are used to overcoming so many obstacles and you know it's so full of kind of complications and so I think uh it you know it sounds like your experience of that has brought this kind of clarity to how to make this important thing effective that you're involved with it's it's really impressive I mean I definitely saw um I saw people in our industry definitely step up and use their experiences in a in a really powerful way that definitely was an inspiration and I got to learn and get close to it before having an experience that sort of directed my um ability to to do that um but as an industry you're right like I often will think because there's not a lot that I could say about the job and how that has sort of like how the the act of modeling has actually informed what I do now as an advocate but um the industry has a kind of collective power and the ability of like how you come together for like a united purpose um and because like especially around HIV AIDS for sure when I came into the industry and like every week there was someone that you were hearing of who was dying or who'd been diagnosed and like it was just so prevalent in my formative years becoming a like you know a sexually active person and a young woman like the terror of coming into your own in those years was real um and so that was one of the first causes where I saw so much happen around me and I felt so deeply connected to what we were trying to do in terms of raising awareness and and resources for research and to care for people so yeah hugely I mean it's still needed today and you see some of those early fashion groups still doing it yeah still committed to it still raising money like incredible and then obviously cancer um so many of us have lost someone to cancer in our lives and seeing how the industry as well especially the industry that's been so focused on women um to see how people rallied around breast cancer and ovarian cancer I mean Liz Tilberis was a legend as a editor and then when she was diagnosed and how she used her experience and was so open and so vulnerable and so out there and then the legacy of of her when she passed and how much um how much we all felt committed to her cause long after she left us yeah um so yeah there's so many like there's it's easy to I think be cynical or to be thinking like to try to sort of take away some of the beautiful things about the industry that is around beauty um but really at the heart of all of that is true and it's it's it's authentic and it's it's real yeah and we're good at what we do yeah thank you so much Christy Tellington for being on fashion neurosis see I I remember writing to you way before I came up with how it would work and you said oh this sounds like fun and it's so great to that here you are lying on the couch in New York and we finally got to have this conversation so thank you so much thank you so much Bella it's been lovely talking to you all day I could just sort of fade away into this catch now