Freddy Madball Part 1: 1983 - 1994

So you brought up Vinny being an encouraging figure in your life. He gave you the name Mad Ball. That's correct. Tell me. Vinny being Vinny, you know? Was it based off the toy or the sock? I don't want to say that exactly, but could very well have been strongly influenced by that. That's funnier because that's stigma watching TV seeing this toy and being like, that reminds me of Freddie. There's another component to it. It's I do have a little bit of a temper. As an 11 year old? You know, only if I'm agitated. Like if you bring it out, if you got me going, I could be a Mad Ball. Hello, welcome. It's hard Lord time. How are you doing, Bo? I'm doing great. Colin, where are we today? We are at Blackheart Barber Company in Nashville, Tennessee for one of the most monumental days in the history of our sport here. We have maybe the definitive hardcore frontman, realistically. This is a true lifer of the genre. One of our most anticipated guests of all time. Someone on the immediate list in the beginning. Like the show started was like, well, if we could get Freddie one day, that'd be great. Many call him the chosen one. Please, everyone, welcome New York's own Freddie Mad Ball. Thank you. Thank you guys. The chosen one. The chosen one. Wow. That's a first. The new the new came right here. That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. How you doing? Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Thanks for the kind words. Of course. Doing great. Doing great. Yeah. Nashville, huh? Nashville, Tennessee. Yeah, man. How long? I've been here a few years now. Cool. Yeah. You dig it? Yeah. I dig it. I really do, actually. A lot of cool people. I've come across people from like back east, from west coast that I know. Like, yeah, I'm making a lot of good connections here with good people. And it's like, yeah, I love it. Is it the centrality of it all in terms of being a traveling guy? Yeah, yeah. A few things, you know, cost of living. And we had some, my wife has some family out here. I got a couple of very close friends that ended up making their way out here. So there were a few things that kind of drew us to this area. Sure. But I love it. So far, so far, so good. Was it hard to leave New York? Well, actually, glad you mentioned that, because I actually was in Florida for a bunch of years. In between New York and here. Interesting. So you went to Florida, New York, Florida. Or New Jersey, Florida, New York, Florida. Yes, yes. My whole life has been between New York and Florida, Jersey. A little Jersey sprinkled in there, of course. So this is the first place that's not on the east coast. That's not New York or Florida. So it's new. It's a new experience, for sure. Well, Nashville, you got Friday now. You're doing it. Yeah, yeah, it's on. But yeah, Florida's always been in the mix since my childhood. And yeah, I was there for a lot of years. My kids were born there. And so I was raising my family there. And then now we're here. Well, before we get into Freddie Maddball, I think we have to start with Ignostic Fred. And we say the chosen one, because you're a very unique case where normally we ask guests, how did you find music? How did you find hardcore music? Well, in your case, hardcore found you very young. So tell us about finding hardcore at seven years old through your brother, Roger, and Ignostic Fred. Ignostic Fred, that's awesome. You guys do your homework. Come on. Yeah, man. I don't know that very many people have even brought that up ever in an interview. So that was good. Yes, I was Ignostic Fred before I was Maddball. I mean, yeah, it's funny because, like you said, hardcore found me. I didn't come from metal or punk, which is typically the case with people. Even like my brother and Vinny, they come from punk. Yeah, I mean, your brother's quote of never trust a hardcore kid who didn't come from punk. Didn't come from punk, yeah. And like, yeah, I mean, that's how he found hardcore. Being in the punk scene and then stumbled upon this new thing and then boom. So for me, it wasn't any of that. I wasn't a metalhead and I wasn't a punk rocker. I just the first heavy style music that I discovered was Ignostic Fred, Victim of Pain, actually United Blood before that. And I mean, yeah, you hear rock stuff or even heavier stuff like Iron Maiden or Black Sabbath or like those kind of names, those big names. Of course, I had heard of those bands and I maybe even knew some songs, but it wasn't what I was into. Yeah, it wasn't your thing. It wasn't my thing. I loved all music. Like as a kid, I mean, I was big into hip hop as a kid. Like, I still am. Huge, you know, like that was like a big thing for me, you know, from like, as long as I can remember. So the first heavy music that I got into that really got immersed into was hardcore, yes. And it was obviously Gnostic Fred. So some people flip through records and they find a Metallica record or something like find like, I don't know, a Bad Brains record at best. Sure. That's best case scenario. Yeah. Created in a lab, find like the purest form. The golden egg. I was lucky. Yeah. I mean, you know, like my, I have other siblings and like there were like all kinds of records in my house. So like, they'd be like a random like Led Zeppelin record or like, and then to be sitting right next to like a salsa record because I'm Latin, you know, like my mom's Cuban, my dad's Colombian. So like heavily, you know, there's always been like a lot of Latin music in my house. Got styles, a lot of salsa, but like that was always big. And I always liked it. I wasn't like, oh, I hate my parents' music. I enjoyed the music. And then there'd be like my sister's stuff and like random disco and like 80s pop. And then there'd be like heavier stuff. They're like such an eclectic variety of like music. But it wasn't your cool tattooed older brother, you know? And then you pulled out the gatefold victim in pain. And it was like, that was the hard stuff, you know? And then like, I mean, does it get any better? Roger was your, no, it does not. So Roger's your half brother? He is. Did you guys grow up together? We did. We never really use the term half brother with. So it's Roger, my brother, Rudy and my sister, Myra. They're all, my Roger's like 12 years older. Rudy's like 10, 11 years old. You know, they're all just like, there's like a 10 year gap between us at least. And so they're all, they were all born in Cuba. That's right. And my mom's first marriage when she was like 16, crazy. And so they're all Cuban. So the whole family's first generation America? I am. Well, I'm, yeah, whatever you would consider me second or like I'm the first one in my entire family born in America. Yeah. Whatever that would be first or second. But yeah, they're all born in Cuba. They're all Cubans. And so my mom came over with three little kids and then she met my dad in New Jersey. And then her and Roger's dad split up. My dad came into the picture. He was younger than their dad. My dad's younger than my mom. And yeah, then a whole other chapter started and I was born. Here we are. But yeah, we never spoke like my little half brother or anything like that. Cause I was like the baby to them. Like, you know, they took care of me. They were like, oh, you know, like 12 years is a big gap. Yeah. That's that's like a, that's a part time caretaker. Yeah. And my mom was going to have like my mom miscarried a bunch of times before me and after me. Oh, wow. So they were always expecting this little brother or sister that was like, when is this thing coming? Like, when's this little kid coming? And so every time she would like miscarry or whatever it'd be like. And then finally I came. So it was like a big deal when I came into the picture. You're a celebration. Oh, really? You know, it happened. And then after me, my mom tried again with my dad and she could never make it happen again. She lost twins in one of those. Before or after me lost twins as well. So yeah, it's sad, but it's brutal. It is what it is. Yeah. I made it through some. You did. We're glad you did. And was this time period when you're, when you first see that victim in pain of the United Blood EP, is this your in New Jersey at the time or were you? I'm in Florida at the time. Yeah. I was born in Jersey and we relocated to Florida when I was about four or five years old, young. And yeah, my grandfather went to Florida and my dad followed him. They wanted they went they wanted sunshine and like tropical because that's kind of the climate where they come from. Of course. So but Roger stays in New York or goes to New York. Roger's not having it. He's like, I'm not going to Florida. He's like, he's old, you know, older, like what, 16, 17, you know, like a kid. But, you know, in those days, he was older. Yeah. So how does it, how does it come that he goes, okay, you're going to come to New York for a trip, vacation or something just to visit? Yeah. How does agnostic front get presented to you as a thing that? Firstly in New York. Okay. Yeah. Because they just wants to bring you around. Yeah. They hadn't toured yet. So would have been about 82, 83. That was my introduction. So it was like, I forget how I made my, I think I do remember how I made my way to New York. I went to visit an aunt in New Jersey in Patterson. And I have a lot of family still in the New Jersey area. My family's like, like again, between New Jersey and like Florida, South Florida and summer sprinkled in New York. But so for one reason or another, I ended up in New Jersey visiting my aunt and my uncle. I had a bunch of uncles there, cousins, some of my age, some of a little younger. And Roger picks me up in New Jersey because he's living in the city at this point. And you know, he's my big brother. So he wants to hang out with me. And that's how I get introduced to the scene at the time, which was based mostly really in like Lower East Side, like alphabet city area. And then my whole world, just like I just got exposed to like this whole world, which was like very different in its infancy. And also in a setting early 80s, Lower East Side. What was that like? Wow, especially for a child. Just like how the pictures depicted. It's like crazy. You know, some places look like third world country, like war zone. And then, you know, I mean, there's always, there was always an element of like a lot of cool art. I mean, you know, East Village, Lower East Side, alphabet city, you know, it was like a hub for artists. So it was like music, art, is that so there's always that element sprinkled in there, you know. But yeah, a lot of crazy, a lot of like, like, you know, people nodding out, a lot of weird. But you know, they, they, they tried to insulate me as best they could. They took care of me. You know, they, they, they did make me panhandle a couple of times. But I mean, I'll forgive them. I'll forgive them for that. I'll give up. Give a pass. But yeah, it was like, you know, my brother and Ray B's and Vinny and like that whole Jimmy and like that whole original first generation New York hardcore guys, like they all like, you know, yeah, I mean, I was like, Hey, look at this little kid. You know, so they took me around and I went to A7. So they're psyched to have you around. They were psyched to have me around. Yeah. I mean, otherwise my brother would have just kicked me, you know, brought me back to my aunt's house and been like, all right, we had fun, took him for an ice cream. Here he goes. I think Mad Ball's whole existence is like proof that your brother loves you in a way, like especially in the early. I question that sometimes, but you're right. If you really, if you break it down, we'll get there. Yeah. But so what was- That was, he's a mad scientist. Right. And he was experimenting. I said, you can go to the lab. I can see that. Yeah, I can see that. And there's, we'll get there in just a second. I don't, do you, like, do you remember much from your life from seven to 11 years old? I don't remember much. There's outside of like a couple action figures I was excited about and bands I started to like. In your case, you have all these photos and videos popping up of you as a little kid on stage. How vivid is all of that to you still? I mean, I'm with you. My memory's not great like that. Like, you know, I know people that have like photographic memories and like, you know, it's more vague, but the pictures do help me like remind me of a scenario or situation. Yes. The pictures are great. Like when I come across those pictures, I could sort of transport myself to that time period and remember almost even what I was smelling at the time. So funny you said that because I was going to say you'll see an old picture and you will remember how that bar smelled, how the stage smelled. Yeah, or the house that, you know, it was like a squat, you know, and they had like a distinct odor. They may not necessarily a bad one, just like a squatty odor, you know, like whatever that is. 100%. And so like pictures are great for that, you know, like, yeah, people are lucky nowadays to have just like photographs of their whole entire life from beginning 10 because it's just going to be like, yeah, I'm not going to forget anything. Yeah. Like we just have books, like a photo album. And those are gone. And that's it. You lose those in the fire every time. Oh yeah. Do you recall your first time singing on stage? Well there's that picture of it, which reminds me of how I felt. And you could see my face in it and I'm terrified. And I remember being nervous, but I remember also having the desire to do it, you know, so it was like, I'm scared, I'm scared, but I'm going to do it. You know, like, I'm not, you know, like, and we're surely influenced and encouraged by your brother. Yeah. Roger can do it. I can do this. For sure. I mean, you know, you always look up to your big brothers and, you know, in like so many ways. And yeah, I was, I was learning the songs. I was starting to like, mouth the songs and be like, okay, yeah, I mean, they're simple songs. And, and, and then it was my brother, but I also have to credit Vinny. Because I think he also caught me like kind of singing it, singing like one of the songs and being like, oh, the kid knows the songs. You know, and I think that's so him. Yeah, come on kid. He's always, he's scouting. I'm still the kid. Okay. I'm a half a century old, but I'm the kid. Trust, trust me. Okay. So he's, you know, I think he kind of looked at my brother and it was like, I don't know if they spoke about it or if it was just kind of like they spoke with their eyes. Like, or, you know, but then it was just like somehow, some way they just kind of were like, oh, let's do it. So did you get the bug from that first time? I think so. Yeah. I would say, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. So you brought up Vinny being an encouraging figure in your life. He gave you the name Mad Ball. That's correct. Tell me. Yeah, that's correct. That was one of my favorite. Vinny being Vinny, you know, he might have been influenced by other things that were going on in the 80s at that time and, you know, like watching a lot of TV and in my street at the Amatshree department, you know. So was it based off the toy or the sock? Toy. I don't want to say that exactly, but could very well have been strongly influenced by that. Because that's funny. That's funnier because that stigma watching TV, seeing this toy and being like, that reminds me of Fred. Him watching like whatever he's watching, you know, regular TV. That's funny already. That's funny already. Just chilling out and, you know, talking to the TV. Yeah. And then, you know, you know that's happening. I mean, I've seen it. So I love you, Stiggy. And then like a commercial comes on and it's like, Mad Ball, Mad Ball, right? So it was, I think more that than the actual, like it was just the sound of it. Reminded him of me somehow. Because I was kind of a Mad Ball. Like I kind of like, there's another component to it. It's, you know, I do have a little bit of a temper and, you know, only if I'm agitated, like if you bring it out and as an 11 year old. Yeah. Wow. And so I think like sometimes for like tour fun, they would like piss me off just to see how it would react. Like, this is the Mad Scientist part. And so I think they would like poke at me and like, not Vinny. Vinny was cool. But like, you know, my brother and a few other people, like, I think they just, you know, like they'd get bored. Get you wound up. They're like, let's mess with the kid and see what he does. Why not mess with the kid? And then cut to me throwing rocks at the van and like, really, I'd get like enraged. Okay. I would have assumed that the band name came from a billiard ball and a mad ball. Yeah. And one would sort of fitting later on. But it's funny that it's almost like almost it's actually very wholesome. The way it actually came along. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a little more a little more wholesome, like exactly like you said, but it was a combo of like Vinny's imagination and my temperament when I got messed with. Sure. Otherwise I was pretty chill kid, I think, but if you got me going, I could be a mad ball. Okay. And one day he was just like, mad ball, mad ball, you know, and then I had shaved my head. So, you know, the whole, you know, I was like, yeah, it just became, it just became mad. There's a difference between finding something peripherally at seven years old or your brother showing you something that's kind of like, okay, cool. And then it becoming a lifestyle community. How strong was that feeling for you at between seven and 11 years old to be like, okay, this is the place I want to be. This is my thing. Super strong. Okay. Immediately. Especially that age range. Because there was a time where I sort of fell out of hardcore that's later, but you know, seven to 12, 13-ish. Yeah, I was like, you know, I just became immersed in it. And then like I just, I was bummed to go to Florida. Like when I would have to go back to Florida, I was bummed. I was like, I just want to be in New York. I don't like hadn't met such cool people. Something about the living outside of the norm really spoke to me. The music clearly resonated with me because otherwise I just wouldn't have even, you know, like, because people, you have to remember like every single thing your older sibling plays for you, you're not going to necessarily like that. You know what I mean? Like you could also. The one you like, you are going to remember forever. You know, you could put something on and go, that's not my thing, man. That's not my bag. I'm over here. But when it speaks to you and it resonates with you, it could change your life. Clearly it did. And that was like what early AF records did for me. But yeah, man, that range, I was like all about it. In that range, sorry to interrupt. In that range, are you living with Roger? No, no, I'm living with my family. But I mean, when you're in New York, when you're visiting. Yeah, I mean, like even when I'd be visiting, you know, like sometimes like it'd be like, oh, I'm going to go visit my family in New Jersey and, you know, responsible adults and like my cousins and like, but I was always looking for an excuse to like. Go get over it. Let's go. You know, let me go hang with my brother. Like, you know, 100%. When you get home to Florida, are there is there like a single other hardcore kid? No, no. So you're you're the you're an outcast at home dying to get back. You got boiling. I could remember going to school with the first time I shaved my head. And people looking at me weird. What the hell? Yeah, you know, and it was just like, you know, because I had like, I don't know, whatever haircut you have at that time and like the 80s or 80s, like some kind of whack haircut and like I was like screw this, shave my head. You know, my mom was bummed. Oh, you beautiful hair. You do have beautiful. Oh, right. Oh, thanks, man. She did that. But you know, moms, yeah, of course, they're beautiful hair. And I'm like, and then I forget like I might have had like, I don't know what. Some kind of shirt on and like. I was just dressed. I wasn't like outlandish. It wasn't like I had like. Five color hair and like really, really trying to like be shocking. But whatever I was wearing was shocking to those people. I mean, was the word skinhead subversive to the average person in 1983, 84? I mean, sadly, that word was like. Negative. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, like it wasn't the skinhead already. Already like early 80s already. Like it was it was more subversive. But the people that didn't know. Immediately thought that for some reason. And like, I'm like, so I got the skinhead that I know. Yeah, I'm like, I'm in New York with like black skins and Latin and like every Jewish. Like, yeah, it's like that's not the world that I'm a part of. Sure. Was there part of it? So like a Nazi front using the word skinhead when it's like a dirty word, even in the time. Pretty brave. Is it is it kind of like a fuck you to kind of. OK, kind of. I mean, they're pretty punk, right? Yeah, pretty like FU. So like. I mean, I think they were just flying the flag of what they were. So they were New York skins. Yeah, it was genuine. It was genuine from them. But. You know, I don't even think they realized until they started touring how bad that climate was as far as like it becoming more political. And then like the right wing and Nazi skin, like all that element. I think they really started to see that more. As they traveled and I saw some of it as well. Sure, because I was there with them. So I was like, yeah, this is yeah, I can, you know, it's it's it's kind of wild. How are you getting into non all ages shows at the time? It's a great question. Great question. I think they snuck me into. It was either a seven or CBS. Well, a seven maybe didn't need to because a seven show started like one in the morning or something like crazy like that. And it was like more wild style, like like run by the kids. Sure. We've been in there recently and it's tiny. Dejan took us after after we had the day with Vinny and it's so small. But he took us in the back where they have all the stuff still. Yeah, very cool. But super small scene, you know, back then. If you see a little kid, you'd know there's a little kid in there. That's why I was sneaking in. Yeah, for sure. Like you're still sneaking in. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Like I don't remember how I know that CBS was bad. They were strict. Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Was it was it? When did it become CBS and not Hillies on the Bowery? Was it was that like was it before my time? Yeah, that's before my time. OK, Vinny would be a better person. He said he went there when it was still Hillies. Oh, yeah. Vinny. Yeah. Vinny Vinny. Yeah, that's his that's his. Yeah, big time. That's his thing. Yeah, he'd tell you about Maxis Kansas. He would tell you about all that. Oh, like where punk was transitioning into hardcore. By the time I went there was already CBS. OK. But the Sunday matinees were probably just starting or hadn't hadn't hit their stride yet. You know what I mean? Of course. But I had to be. Um, we had to talk to them about me being in there and they didn't necessarily sneak me in. But I could only go do a song and leave. And I had to be escorted in and escorted out by either Big Charlie, who was like old school security guy there, great guy. Rest in peace, Big Charlie, or like Ray B's or like one of the guys. Would you just hang out outside then? Yeah. So I would just be hanging out like my brother would have his van out there. Doors open, people hanging. I mean, that was kind of a thing anyway. It's like at CBS, like people really like to hang out outside because in there it's all dingy and dark. So you really only went in when the show was happening. The real the cool part was the hang outside. I mean, you know, whether you drink, didn't drink, didn't matter. Like everyone hung out, talk to each other. You know, you had the straight edge faction. You had the drinkers. You had this. Didn't matter. You know, everyone respected each other, knew each other. And like, so yeah, I'd hang out in the van until it was like, you know, I was allowed to go in and sometimes I'd extend my time inside. I'd cheat and be like, they're not they're not saying anything. And then eventually someone would be like, yeah, you got to get your brother out of here. He's not supposed to be in here. And as that for like liability reasons on there, exactly. It's interesting that they cared about that. Really? Considering everything else. And there was a bunch of 16 year olds in there. So it's like, I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess there's a difference. Eleven, yeah. Eleven, 16. Was there a single other 11 year old present, like even in the community at the time? You know, the chosen one. Yeah, I can remember. You're Luke Skywalker. I can remember. No, like, no, I think I was like one of the younger. And there were a lot of young people on the scene, but no one as young as me. No, nothing I can remember. You mentioned that you were a hip hop head. Yes, very much. That's not so much a genre that we know all that much about. Were you in to hip hop at that time? Yeah, was hip hop. I don't even really know when hip hop really like took off. I know it being New York, hip hop and hardcore kind of almost the same age. I think like, I think hip hop may have come like punk maybe just before like hardcore. The way we know it, but similar in age. I mean, obviously, hip hop's trajectory is like it's pop. Yeah, that's essentially pop music. Yeah, yeah. But who are some of the artists that I mean, I loved like you know, we had like in my house, there were like Curtis Blow records, which is like super old, which was kind of like before my time. But I still was like, I liked it. And we had Sugar Hill Gang Records, Grandmaster Flash. We had like all those old records. But the stuff that I started to like kind of like on my own was like Slick Rick and Dougie Fresh had this had a record that had like I guess it'd be like an EP had like just a couple of songs on it. And it was called The Show. And so it had like Lottie Dotty on the other side. I was like the B side. And that was like, I think I even bought that record with my own money or like my own money. Yeah. From the phone handling that they made. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. So yeah, stuff like that. And then of course, like Run DMC, LL Cool J, like the names that everyone, you know. But in their infancy as far as like, yeah, yeah. Now, license to ill when it first dropped, Beastie Boys, first record. You know, that was like a big one for me. I love that record. But those guys around when you were first coming around, I didn't know them super well, but my brother Vinny, those guys know those guys. Yes. Was there a bit of like, oh, these guys are taking off now. Too cool type thing. Or was it like, I don't I never got that vibe. And Jimmy was especially Jimmy. You know, I'm talking about, you know, Jimmy from Murphy's Law. Yeah. The anytime I say Jimmy, there's only one Jimmy. OK, there's many Jimmy's, but there's only, you know, in your world. Yeah. He was tight with them. OK. Because they they brought out Murphy's Law on their first big arena tour. Oh, I didn't know that in America for the license to ill album, which is basically where they just popped off. They took off right after that. And I mean, they were already doing arenas and saying like their first tour. So that just goes to show you where they were headed. Yeah, I thought it was super cool that they brought out Murphy's Law. It's all because like Murphy's Law meant a lot to New York Car Corps. But like in the big picture, they weren't like some big band. Yeah. So I thought it was really cool. I know one of them, I forget which which Beastie Boy also played base for Chrome, a couple of times, like later on. Or mid mid. Yes, I know. I forget which I think about that. You know, the first time I ever played New York, we went to Flight Club, the shoe store early 2000s. Yeah. Grandmaster Flash walked in. Yeah. Dropped like 10 grand on shoes in 2003 money. You know, that's like he's he's he's well too. He's double parked, came in, just bought a bunch of shit, had to put in his car and left. And it was like the coolest thing I've ever seen. Real New York moment. Yeah. What were so agnostic front pulls you in Murphy's Laws around? What were other hardcore bands you connected to at that time that were kind of popping off? Yeah, what demos? Because because like like, yeah, your brother's in an agnostic front and that's that's going to get you there. But finding this collective of of other bands is what's going to keep you there. Pretty much anyone that played with AF. I. You know, I just. At that time, I just loved the culture. You know, like I'm not a sponge. You're just so. Yeah. And I'm not like, you know, I wish I should have been better about this, but like I'm not like a great historian of the core of the culture. You know, like I don't have like every seven inch. I don't have like I couldn't name you every single band, you know. But. You know, all the New York bands, obviously classic bands, war zone. This, you know, like all those bands, I mean, goes without saying. Sick of it all. You know, I liked it all. You know, and and and obviously my world grew bigger as time went on. And I got to travel and meet other bands from other places. But yeah, anyone that like AF toured with. Or anyone that played CBs when I was there, I just was hungry to like. Absorb whatever whatever was going on, you know. And. I really, you know, as I got older, then I started to find the stuff that really, really. You know. Connected affected me, which was like, you know, bright side from killing time. And like certain sheer terror records and like. You know, even like the first Chrome eggs, your coral, you know, like, you know, those things are like impactful to like, I think anyone to the stand. Hardcore pretty much. But like those were important records for me that I kind of started to find, you know, my own taste. Yeah. And those you're you're 15 when those are coming out. And that there's a big difference between the thing you hear at seven years old. You're a kid. You kind of don't know. You just kind of see who you see and like you're just like, cool, cool, cool. I mean, I was on tour with GBH with AF and I just they were just such cool guys that I just love them just based on like. He was nice to me. I like it. It was just cool, cool English dudes. And like, you know, I didn't know that they were going to be this like legendary, you know, British punk. Sure. Kind of hardcoreish band, too, because they're like super influential to hardcore, you know, like GBH discharge, like those kind of heavy punk bands. I think. Influenced early hardcore. Everything comes from somewhere. Isn't that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. One thing that surprised both of us when we were talking and when we spent the day with Vinny and something that I heard you say, we played a a fest together somewhere in Europe, maybe two years ago now. Bad religion was also playing. We played a fest brutal assault or something, one with all the big excavators. OK, you know, OK, and I think I know where you might be going with this. And I'm happy you're asking this, if it's what I think you just said, we got hardcore royalty in the house. Yeah. And I want to I want everybody to give it up and make sure you watch Bad Religion. Yeah. And this was years before. We talked to Vinny before I knew that that bad religion, I wouldn't have guessed would be an influential band. Yeah. To the guys in New York, to the East Coast. Well, specifically, like my brother, I remember my brother wearing a bad religion shirt in the early eighties. Like he would play he would play shows with like this old bad religion shirt on the United Blood seven inch. Maybe you're right. Yes. And like I think he like, you know, everyone back then would like bedazzle their shirt, cut it off like, you know, and which is happens now, too. Right. You know, sometimes you want to just, you know, cut the sleeves off. No, wrong with that. Hey, your preaching to conduct. Yeah, you know what I mean? I want to trim the bottom of it happens. It happens. So I remember that symbol like, you know, very vividly, like that logo is very much like. But I was watching that interview with Brett. Yeah. And. Well, I want to preface what I'm going to say with this. I have so much respect for Brett because we were on epitaph briefly. It was sort of an unfortunate thing because it was. I think one of our stronger records. Yeah. But we didn't really get to push it the way it deserved to be pushed. And a lot of that had to do with me. I got into some legal stuff, you know, at this point, I'm older and I'm getting into all kind of street shenanigans, dumb stuff. And so I got myself in a bad situation and. You know, I got locked up briefly, did a little skid bid, blah, blah, blah. And it hindered. That push. And then I was excited to, you know, revisit the opportunity. And then we lost the guys that were the lineup at the time. So it was just like a mess. Sure. Just to give you a little context about hold it down about why that was never really pushed so hard. But fast forward to, I don't know, a few years back, Brett, I asked, I asked Brett for the album straight up. And because I was like, you know, it's like it's sort of like. Living in like obscurity in a way. And like epitaph. And I asked him for the record and Tim is a friend of mine from Ransom. And so Tim was like, oh man, Brett, Brett's cool. You know, just just talk to him and I'll give I'll put a good word in. And I mean, I know Brett, but like not super well. He's not my homie like that. And all it really took was a phone call and a couple of emails. And he let me have that record. Which is unbelievable. Insane. He he's a like a genuine punk. Dude, that is the most punk thing that was like no red tape. No BS. He was just like, yeah, Freddie, you deserve it. You know, you deserve it. Like, you know, he understood. I mean, it wasn't like it's something that's making him a bunch of money anyway. But I mean, still, that does not happen. But the money thing is irrelevant because there are people who will like hold on to stuff, even if it's not making them any money, they just want to have ownership of it. Yeah, because it could. Because it could. Yeah, something that you could go in a movie or something. You never know. The band could pop off later in the game. And now that records guy has a lot more value and not to get too much into the business of things. And I don't want to put anyone's business out there. But I just want to thank Brett because and I've never had the opportunity to publicly thank him for being like a standup dude, for being like a real guy. Like even on our level, like even on the DIY underground level of music, people still play that industry card. People are still very business and very industry. And he was not that way. He was like, say less. That's how you go. Yeah. And I was like, that's not a thing. Here, take your album. Yeah, take your your masterpiece back for free. Dude, it's crazy. Crazy. Yeah, crazy. I'm forever forever, like eternally grateful to Brett for that. So I want to preface that now moving on to the bad religion thing. I remember on the interview, we're like, oh, it was like my favorite hardcore band of all time. That is not exactly accurate. Great band. Iconic, legendary. If there's a hall of fame for like punk hardcore bands, they belong in it. Like among others. Agreed. But I have to give the greatest hardcore band of all time titled AF. I have to be. And I think that's where the message was a little mixed because I was shouting out AF, but I also shouted out bad religion in the same breath. So I was saying best hardcore band in the world, Ignacio Front, but there's a lot of hardcore royalty in the house, bad religion in the house. And so it got there was like something that was like not to say that, not that there's anything wrong with like, hey, all love and respect to bad religion as well. You know, but it was still. Yeah, I always gets that. Yeah. And we agree. I agree. We said. But but with even with that and then with with talking to Vinny and realizing that they were that influential. Oh, yeah. It's just not something that I ever really put to paper that I thought about. So it was it was cool to. To see that from both his generation and your generation. You know, I mean, that that the respect is there. I mean, those guys know better than I do. But like. Callie DC. Even like negative approach, which is one of my favorites. Super influential. But like I feel like with that first generation, they were all influencing each other. Yeah. Yeah. So like who came first? I don't know, you know, bad brains or somebody out West. I mean, it's hard to say. Sure. It's all like late 70s. Same time. And it's so fast. And even if you think about United Blood, yeah, that's like 81 82. Sure. So it's like they're not far behind. They have is right there. Right there. You know, and they're unique. So everyone's unique. No one sounds like bad brain. No one sounds like bad religion. No one sounds like AF. No one sounds like cause for alarm. But you know what I mean? Like all these bands. So it's like a little pivot here. You mentioned Chromags earlier. Yeah. I'm always wondered. Was there ever like a silent kind of rivalry between AF and the Chromags of like, who's the king in New York here? Who's the band in New York? I would. I mean, it's funny because they all sort of came up like I remember when I first went to New York, Harley was very much a part of that original squad. And I know John was around as well. But for some reason, I don't remember him in the mix as much. Maybe he was going through some stuff at the time. So he was a little out of the mix. But Harley was also once the 12 year old kid. Yeah. At the shows. Right. Yeah. He's the original punk, like 12 year old kid before me, for my time. And I give him that. But Harley was part of that original squad of guys in the early 80s that I, you know, met that I, you know, when I became indoctrinated and became like, you know, immersed in this. Harley was there for sure. And they were homies. But I think by the mid 80s, there was some weirdness with the camps. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to. I'm not. It's not for me to really tell a story. I hope you interview my brother or dying. That's that's another one of these. Say the word. I make it happen. It's another one of the. I make it happen. Minute we get off of this. And it's I think it's important for the culture, 100 percent, which, which is what you guys do. And I appreciate that. And you guys cover the culture in a great way. So yeah, thank you. Salute to you guys. He'll tell you probably more in depth those things, but there was, there was, there was some, there was some. Unspoken, maybe like. Because you don't see a lot of old flyers with both bands on it. No, they don't play together. Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. It's very interesting. It's a good it's a good observation. And you're right. It was sort of like. It became different camps. Yeah, let's just say that. Yeah. And people had different intentions and, you know, we'll talk to Roger. And now it's over 40 years ago. Yeah, yeah, for real. Yeah, for real. So but you can't deny like, age a curl. Like that. One of the best. Undeniable. One of the best. Yeah. So you turn 12 years old. Yeah. Somebody says to you, hey, let's make a band. Rod, your brother in stigma, your brother in stigma. Say let's Michael Jackson. Yes, really. But it's it's is it. Hey, do you want to record something like how does that? How does ball destruction? I forget how the exact conversation went, but it happened pretty organically just because by this point, it became a tradition of sorts for me to come up and sing a song with AF anytime I was with them. So, you know, I'm getting older. I'm getting a little more comfortable. I mean, I'm still like a kid. I'm shy, but I think I graduated from doing like it's my life, which was easy enough, which is an animals cover. An animals cover. The animals. Sorry guys. Those are our guys. I love the animals. Dude, they're awesome. And one of the best. And they're like huge fans of the animals. They're like bad boys. You know, like they were the naughty bears. They're rough. And I mean, the name doesn't get better. The name. So it should be the fucking animal. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. And I, you know, that was one of those ones where like you go back and get into it after the fact. Yeah, absolutely. Because like Vinny, that's his era. Like he grew up with the animals. Like he loves all that stuff. Hence why he hijacked that little segment of the song. But yeah. Then you start to learn like, oh, and then. Oh, yeah. I mean, I went retroactively, went back with a lot of music and like, I mean, you know, I love old news. I love all kinds of stuff. But anyway, not to veer from the question. So that was my first song. And then. Last Blind Justice, the end of Blind Justice into last warning became my thing. Like when, you know, the end of Blind Justice starts coming with that, you know, where you get those last lines that build up. And then all of us, the mic would be the mic would be handed to me. And then I don't know how that came to be, but I guess I like those songs. And I was just like, yeah, you know, but also the symbolism of a little kid saying there's no justice. There's no justice. It's just us. That was my lines. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, that's that was the seed planted from Mad Ball right there. And then all of Last Warning. Yeah. And. So I would do that anytime I was with them, which. Which like Last Warning is one of the biggest like mouthfuls on the record. So. But but having that inclination of like fitting all that and figuring that out as an 11 year old. If I were your older brother, I'd also be like this kid singing for a band. So how does that become? I mean, I guess they recognize something that I was able to like. Do it. Yeah. And and stay on time. So yeah, that was that was simply it. Like I would just do these songs with them wherever I was, you know, be it Florida or New York, CBs. I think I even sung those songs on like a live at CBs recording or one of those live at CBs. It was one of those deals where I got brought in first one. Yeah. Yeah. I sang and then they were like, get him out of here because it was like the craziest show ever. Sure. It was like just people like just like everywhere. Like you couldn't barely see the band, you know, it's like, wow. So is it is is Mad Ball like a cheat code? Like he's the singer of the band. You got it. He can't you can't kick him out. He's the singer. You got to be in here. First, I mean, maybe. Mad Ball is Mad Ball. Yeah, I'm mad. Ball. Exactly. That's true. But did Mad Ball perform officially before anything was recorded? Yeah. Yeah. Officially, unofficially, there was an AF show where a couple of guys didn't make it. Craig Craig and I think Steve Martin. That makes sense. And so I don't know why that is, but they didn't make it to this show and New Rochelle and. My brother, being a guy who thinks on his feet, you know, picks up a base, I'll play base. You play there, we'll do Mad Ball because Mad Ball idea concept was already there. It was in the lab. It was in the lab. I can't even I don't remember if we had recorded ball destruction yet or not. I don't think you had. OK, probably not. But the scene was like we were already talking about. And it's all AF songs, which is which is amazing, which is the funniest part. Yeah, it was it was it was more novelty than original. Sure. OK, let's just say that. Sure. But yeah, Roger picked up the base, Vinny had the guitar, Will. And I sang the older songs and show went off, you know, like the people that were there to see AF. I mean, I'm sure they were bummed, but they made the most of it. And it was cool. Like from what I remember, it was like the reception was like positive. Who is like in a non derogatory way at all. You're kind of this mascot for the youth of this culture. You know, I don't I don't take offense to it at all. I mean, I feel like I was the mascot until Mad Ball. So like Gnostic Fred was the mascot. Yeah, there you are. Right. And like I first I was like Gnostic Fred, like, you know, like, you know, when you're a kid, especially a rebellious one like myself, you kind of want your own identity. But I didn't mind it because it was like, yeah, I mean, these are my these are my this is my family and like, yeah, I'm with them all the time. Yeah, I'm Gnostic Fred. OK, I'm cool with it. Like I can I can take I named after the coolest band in the world. Yeah, I am. All right. I'll accept it. I'll accept it. But then Mad Ball, when Vinny, Chris and me, Mad Ball, that felt like my own identity in a way. Like that felt like, OK, now I'm not Gnostic Fred. Now I'm just this other and I didn't initially like Mad Ball, the nickname. I was like, Mad Ball, like what? You know, and then, you know, I was like, I was like a little bit like not feeling it at first. And then it just they were relentless with it. They just that's all they called me, you know, Vinny, my brother, Craig, after the whole whoever was around at that time, that was that became my nickname. And so they're boom. Then between that, I guess my personality and then also the fact that I was singing. Yeah, when they were like, dude, like we got to do a seven inch when you sing in like old AF songs and see what happens. You said it was more novelty than than serious, but like it's serious enough where that they're taking time out of their lives to record this record with with you singing. So they took it somewhat seriously. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I never viewed it that way. But yeah, I mean, you're you're right. I mean, they could have just been like, I just talked about it and this or live only kind of thing. This would this could have been cool or would be cool. But like just like, I don't have time for that. Yeah, it's true. They did take time out. I mean, it was it was it was awesome that they did that and that they they they, you know, viewed me in a way where like, OK, I think I think this kid can pull it off. That's definitely. You know, a good feeling. Yeah. And obviously it was fun to do. Because I knew a lot of old AF songs. So just being around them and, you know, even songs, these are songs. Some of them were never never made it to United Blood, maybe made it to their set, maybe not, but like they were floating around old, you know, and so we just kind of like brought them back to life. And it's like a proof of concept, B side record or something. Yeah, it's such an interesting. And that's you on the cover. That's me on the cover. Yeah. And so we just went we just went with it. And yeah, it was just like we took a picture and like it all just happened sort of organically and fast and just like and all the songs were already there. So there was no writing really necessary. And yeah, the recording was like a two track live at Don Fury's. So it was not nothing super technical or like no, like. Fifty passes on vocals to get like a take is just like go. Oh, you ripped it live for a ripped it live. Yeah, you. Now, obviously, you're very young on this recording. So you sound young. You sound you sound young. Yeah, you eventually and we'll get there. But you eventually have a very distinct voice. You know, you have your style, your voice. Were you trying to do that voice? But it was you were young. So you were just going for it. OK, I was just yelling. I was just yelling. That's all that's that's what I knew how to do. I was like, OK, yell and make sure that you don't fumble the words. Perfect. And you didn't part in this interruption. We promise it's important. You know, we don't want to interrupt this episode with one of the greats of all time. But this episode was brought to you by two very important entities that we got to talk to you about real quick. Give us a minute, maybe two minutes, maybe three minutes. Firstly, this episode is brought to you by the great Dunnable guitars, the guitars and basses for heavy music in general, used by not only me, but many of your favorite artists, Sanguissangabab, Power Trip, Primitive Man, Mongrel, way more. 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OK, while the world goes to shit and everything is a billion dollars, these beautiful guitars somehow become more affordable. Thanks to Dunnable and thanks to us. Check it out right now. This episode is also brought to you by the great Mills Vintage, the best selection in the world. And you can quote me of vintage hardcore metal and punk t-shirts. Every day I'm rocking something for Mills or something I want to sell to Mills because you can do that. You can go see him, trade him your stuff, sell him your stuff. He'll sell it back to me. Hopefully he sells it back to you before I have to get it. It's a vicious cycle, but it's a beautiful cycle, nonetheless. That's right. You can visit both locations of Varsity and Mills in, would you call it, Los Angeles? Oh, yeah. And New York City. Go in there. See what they got. Go to the website. See what they got. See what he's had before. Consider what you got. You might be able to trade. You might be able to sell. You can reel. You can deal. He also just got back from Tokyo, so I'm sure he's coming back with some crazy heat. So go to Mills Vintage USA dot com right now. Use code HardLore. You're going to get 10 percent off. Probably the coolest shirt you've ever seen in your life, the one you've been looking for your entire life. There's mad ball shirts in there right now. Just pick it up. Use code HardLore. Get 10 percent off and enjoy this episode. Ball of destruction. Yeah. Eight songs. Five minutes. 48 seconds. That long. Yeah. One of the greatest hardcore seven inches of all time to this day. Thank you. And your literal child on any, any fond memories of the actual recording process? Were you there when they did the music as well? Oh, yeah, yeah, we all did it in the same room. It was live. It was live. It's just straight up. Yeah, it was live. It was like, yeah, it was a lot of fond memories because it happened down the block from Vinnie's house. So, you know, Don Fury Studios was on spring. In the cellar, right? Yeah. Stomp on the thing. Yeah, in the basement. Yeah. It was on spring, I guess. And like right in that area, like right in Vinnie's neighborhood, which you guys have been to. And yeah, I mean, you know, we'd go get sandwiches at Parisi's, like, you know, the neighborhood stuff. So we were in the neighborhood, so it was very comfortable. And then like went down, recorded. Backups were done by, I think, like Mark Super Touch and which is a band that, like, you know, back, you know, you guys know Super Touch, you guys know your stuff. Craig. Yeah. Did backups. I think that was it. I think it was like two people and then like maybe some of the other guys, but like, yeah, it was just fun. It was just like fun, quick. We hit it pretty quick. Like we didn't take too long. Like we nailed it. And it was just, was it just a feeling of like, that's going to be cool. Yeah, it was awesome. I mean, I was like, oh man, I'm like, I'm going to actually be on like a recording. Yeah. This is wild. When you're 12. You know, I mean, it's not real until you get the thing. Yeah. And the logo. Idea. The orange, it's orange, I think, on the original. Yeah. Where did that, who made it? Where did that come from? I can't remember. Because it's as iconic as any other. Yeah. It, one of the greatest. I can't remember where we got that font. Yeah, man. I have to ask my brother. I didn't know. You're going to have to ask my brother. We'll ask your brother. We'll ask him. Because I didn't know if it was a sports font or like just some font. Yeah, it was some font. It's clearly hand drawn. It looks hand drawn. It just worked, you know, like when we were coming up, you know, I mean, the picture was taken by Amy, who was a mother of my, of Roger's first, first child. They were never married, but they were together a long time. She was in a band called Nausea. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah, of course. So she was a photographer, like on the side, like, you know, so like she did that picture and I think all the pictures on there, maybe, maybe hers, but, um, and that is such a good question about the logo. Oh, it's all good. Because that logo is still important to us. It's the one. That's our logo. Yeah, for real. And we do know that Steve Huey did the iconic mad ball itself. Yeah. Yeah. The version that's closest to what it is for sure. Sure. For sure. Does that, is that something you were ever told to stop using legally because of the toy? No. Okay. No, what? So free reign on the, on the mad ball. That guy, he can be anything. Not that I can remember. Not that I can remember. It seems like. I feel like I would remember something like that if it was like a massive thing where it was like, oh, don't do that. Yeah. Um, I think it was just different enough where like, and maybe. It's good for the toy. Maybe they didn't care enough, you know? So it was like, yeah, some hardcore, man. Did you ever, ever have one? I wish. I never had one. Yeah, no. So maybe they didn't. I feel like I did. Did you? I think I did after the fact. I would hold. I think I grabbed the cup after the fact, but like, I wasn't into them before, but. Yeah, the logo, man, I'm going to have to really. That's great. That's one of the best. That's one of the best. We have something to do with that as well. Howie Abrams, because that record went to in effect. Sure. I, I passed on to you guys and, um, I'm sure they had something to do with helping with the layout and stuff. Howie was very, howie Abrams, I have to mention him because he was, uh, an A and R at InEffect and, um, he was my brother's go to guy. And he was the one that, uh, uh, Roger presented all the structure to him. Like, Hey, I got this cool thing that we recorded. What do you think? And in effect was this new label under relativity or under, under something. There were some umbrella label under something bigger. They were like, um, here, here's this crazy thing with my little brother and how he absolutely loved it. He could have said, this is a piece of shit. And, uh, excuse my language. No, no, no, no. You're saying, you want? Cock. Oh, yeah. Huh. But, um, he was like all about it. And, uh, and he went on to sign us for, to Roadrunner as well. Okay. There we go. So I got to mention Howie because historically speaking, he's very, very instrumental in Mad Ball. Team Mad Ball. And the reason I mentioned him is that he would probably have a good idea of like how we came up with that font, with that logo, because he was part of the In Effect Squad that put together the ball destruction thing. I think the lettering though is mine. I'm pretty sure it's my scribble. The ball of destruction. Okay. That's cool. What is it? And that's it on a lot of records. Set it off as me. Yeah. Uh, at a lot of times where you see like the, you know, it written now, drop it down. Drop it as suckers as me. So yeah, like, which is a fun fact. That's awesome. So that's a great fact. I had no idea. Um, ball of destruction. What did, did that mean something? Did it sound cool? It just, I think it was, came out of Vinny's mind or something. I don't know. It's another one of those like Vinny creations, maybe Vinny and Roger. Um, what, yeah, I was like, what do we call it? Mad Ball. Okay. We had my, had, we had the name of the band because it's my nickname. Okay. We got the band. What do we call the record? And I think probably Vinny was like, you know, ball of destruction. You know, and it was like, yep. Oh, so complete sense. Yeah. So I'm, I'm really, the nickname came before the band. Yes. Yeah. For sure. I, I, that just dawned on us. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. He is mad. He is mad ball. Yeah. That's why we also asked, that's why when you asked me that question about can the band exist without the name of, say, well, I mean, technically it can, but I am mad ball. It would be like Danzig kicking out Danzig. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, yeah. So these ball of destruction has multiple songs on it that you're still playing 40 years later. Yes, sir. Pretty unbelievable. It's dope. Who else can sit, you and the Rolling Stones. You know, that metallic. And Ignacio Front. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess they're timeless. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well said. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, they're, they're ridiculous, but timeless. Yeah. I really like the idea of you saying hardcore lives on this record. Yeah. It was like almost prophetic in a way because hardcore in general is so young that there's almost no need to declare that it lives, but you putting that message out there that early as just like a mantra almost ensures that it always would. Like you're at 12 years old going, you're hardcore. This new thing currently lives. Yeah. And now you have a thing to say to keep it alive for it. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's now. I don't know. Like, I mean, that was definitely like an ad lib on my part. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think anyone told me to say that. I just like yelled it out. Wow. And yeah, I mean, you know, I still use it as a hashtag. Yeah. It's an album. You know, just to kind of like, I don't know. It's like, you know, our scene's always like fighting to be heard, fighting to be noticed. So, you know, it was one of those kind of statements. And I feel, I still feel like that today. You know, it's like, you know, you have all this, you know, all this stuff that was influenced by hardcore in the music world. So, and it's still like, some people don't know where it came from. Kind of, you know, so like, I don't know that, that, that, that sentiment, that feeling, that like underdog kind of feeling has always been there from jump. Yeah, it's crazy. You know, like no one knew my brother's band. Like I couldn't tell people like, yeah, I was hanging out with him. Now I say, who? Yeah. What's that? What's that? Which is not the case anymore. What's that? Not even who's that? Like, what is that? What's that name? It's a weird name, you know? Like, so yeah, it's always like, hardcore lives, you know, rooting on the, rooting for the culture. You talked about, it's my life earlier. I think that and crucified are the songs that are like permanently coursing through both bands and like being reused. Like the part you use crucified and the breakdown of crucified is in like three different records or something. It's everywhere. It's kind of bull progress. Yeah, it is. We should do it live. We should do a portion of it live. We're going to get there. We're going to get to one. We'll get there. An iron cross cover. It is, right? Yep. And yeah, I remember, I remember getting into, into Mad Ball. I'm sure it was set it off. The first thing I found, which obviously we're going to get there too. But I remember thinking like, they, they do this part a lot. You know what I mean? Not understanding. That's like, yeah, this, this, that's kind of the point. Yeah. It's fully aware of it. I agree. That's always stuck with me. It's cool. Who's, whose idea was that for, I guess, just like permanently adopting crucified as the whole camps anthem? Well, we kind of stopped it, especially when AF came back into the fold. But for us, we always did little things as an homage to AF. Like when we started playing, because you have to remember that when Mad Ball actually became an actual band, not just a novelty of like, Hey, here's this cool seven inch with this little kid. Cool, cool, cool. It was that. Nothing wrong with that. It was awesome. Something I'm extremely proud of. But we weren't like actively touring and stuff. You know, that didn't come until like the early nineties and really until after dropping many suckers, which I'm sure we're going to talk about. But we're not there. We're almost there. Just about. But no, no, yeah. No, no, no, I'm not rushing. But what we saying? So, so yeah, there was always like. AF is a part of the, is a part of the band. AF is a part of our lineage, whether you like, you know, whether we like it or not, is it, you know, AF, that's our lineage. That's where we were born out of that, you know, family and like. We were always proud of that. Sure. It wasn't like I was trying to like, Oh, I need my own space, my own identity. I don't want to be like, you know, people get, you know, go that route too. Where it's like, you know, I think we eventually did that organically. You did. Yeah. Just because. I have a different personality than my brother. I have a different, different things to say. I have, you know, like, I'm my own, you know, I'm my own person. So that happened. Organically. And even stylistically, we're very different. Yeah. But. Back then. We wanted to keep AF's name. Kind of like the hardcore. Lives things. Like, you know, we, we felt like, Oh man. Where's, where's it. Where's hardcore going. It's. I think it might fade out. Already. You know, already. And so, AF decides to take a break and so we would incorporate AF things into our set. We always covered Frendor Faux. We did parts of Crucified, like we're talking about. Always, there was always AF in the mix. And, you know, my band was the last lineup, the last agnostic front lineup. So it just naturally made sense to always keep it in the family. But we stopped doing Frendor Faux. We stopped doing Crucified. A lot of AF related stuff when they came out. It's my life kinda became yours. It's ours. That's what we're doing. Sorry AF. And sorry animals too, by the way. It's ours. Thank you very much. We are two guys who love to know stuff. We love, no, we love the nod. We love the references. Cheers. So, you know, knowing that that was, that that's not like, I don't know, let's play an AF song. No, no. Play our, the anthem. Like, all it is very, very. Yeah, that was purposeful though. We wanted to keep, you know, if we were gonna be the next generation coming. Yeah. And the flag or the baton was handed to us that we were gonna make sure that we represented them in some way. Do you feel as though you're like a second generation punk, hardcore kid? I feel like I'm a third generation. But. Cause there's a group of four and then like your brother and Vinny and then you. They're first, for sure, pioneers. My brother and them always say that I was grandfathered into the first generation. Just because I was there. I was present. You were there. So. That's proof. What could argue that I'm grandfathered into the first generation? Second gen to me is like sick of it all, killing time. Like that. I don't know how you guys. No, no, you nailed it. I think we nailed it. That's just me. Which is monumental stuff. And then I think we came after that, obviously. Like even though ball of destruction has existed at the same time that Bright Side existed, it was not like a serious, like it was serious, but not. You know what I mean? It was like a thing, but it was not an active, see Sunday matinee band or like Tori band. That came later. So as ball of destruction is happening. They were doing Liberty and Justice. I was there. And I know that very well because I was there while they recorded Liberty and Justice. I went up to Ithaca, New York with my brother. And were you, when you. I played the song by the way. How did you. You did. Wow. Hard Lord. When you heard the kind of sonic departure of causeful arm, were you into that as just as a fan of the band? It was different for sure. But I could appreciate some of the elements of it. I didn't hate it. I didn't hate it. I was big, big, big victim in pain guy. More so than United blood. Victim in pain still, when I hear the first chord makes my hair, the hairs on my arms stand up still to this day. So that was like, you know, United blood's great. Victim in pain was like, you know, the record. I mean, that's the New York hardcore LP. That's the New York. And I, and I, and I, and obviously this is bias because you know, that's my family. And that's, I came up with those guys in that camp directly. So it's a very biased statement, but. We can validate them. And I feel like a lot of people, especially New York people, but even East Coast or even even some West Coast people. I mean, like I feel like a lot of people would like back me on that. They won, we held the tournament for this very thing. They won, they won. Thank God. Cost for alarm is great though. Like I have no issues with cost for alarm. Like production's a little weird to me. My brother's voice was a departure from what I was used to. That was where it kind of became. That kind of freaked me out a little bit. I was like, at first I was like, what happened with the victim in pain voice? You know? But, you know. As you've seen, it just kind of happens. It happens, man. It happens. And you know, there's some great songs that would cost for alarm. And it definitely influenced a lot of people. Oh yeah. That record. Ourselves included. I don't know. Maybe more people than victim in pain in a way. Because it was crossing over to another. The crossover got everybody. I think it's possible. Something that I think we have to talk about, just to talk about the full lineage of Mad Ball, the lyrics, the album titles, the merch, is DMS. When did that become kind of a central part of the Mad Ball story in your life? DMS? Yeah. Well, it predates me. Right. Being a part of it? Sure. But when I permanently moved to New York as a young guy, 16 years old, I linked up with a group of guys that were like, in my age range. Because prior to that, I was always with older dudes. I was always with Stigma and Roger. Even Will and Matt, they're not like crazy older than me, but they're still older guys. Sure. Will was always like a big brother to me. Will had no shame about bringing me out and hanging with me. He was super cool. For being a guy who was out on the town and a little older, I don't know about bringing this little 12 year old, 11, 10, whatever. I've known Will since I'm nine, 10 years old, whatever. He never made me feel like that. He was always cool about bringing me around. So Will, Maddy, those guys are my friends. They're closer in age to me than Roger. But I didn't have a group that was like, that were my friends. My own friends. Not just Roger's friends that I met through him or whatever. And then that's when I started meeting Toby H2O. And he became my friend outside of that circle. Even though he knew AF, he was sick of it all, but we just kind of hit it off on our own. And then he introduced me to Isaac. And then I met Isaac. And then Isaac introduced me to Hoya and then Narc. And then those became my boys. They became my friends. They were still maybe a little bit older than me, but still close enough in age where like, and there were a lot of commonalities. Like we all liked hip hop. Fashion wise, we all kind of dressed a little bit like urban or thuggish, but still we were hardcore kids. And we all had that in common. We were in Carhartt or whatever was stylish at the time, but we were hardcore kids. And so there were a lot of things that we had in common. Obviously the main threat of it was hardcore. Because we didn't meet essentially through that vehicle, but that was pretty much it. So I organically became friends with these group of people and then they just so happened to be a part of this family of sorts. This brotherhood of sorts. And I naturally fit in. I naturally fit in. I always had that kind of thing anyways. Like even prior to that, I had a group of friends in Florida and we had like a crew. It was completely unrelated to hardcore. It was like more like street level stuff, but like nothing to do with hardcore. But we had our own crew and we had letters. And so I don't know. I was always kind of like gravitated towards like, brotherhood thing. And then we found that with each other through the music and then through just the friendship and then hanging out. Like then it became a thing where we would all hang out, meet in the LES or meet on Avenue A, St. Mark's. And we'd meet there all the time and hang and get to know each other and get into stuff. Good and bad. Yeah, sure. So it was just a, hey, you're in the family thing type thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it eventually grew. Sure. It's a whole other thing. But yeah, I was accepted into the family very early on. And there weren't a lot of us at that time. And it was also going through a transitional period because there was a regime or a generation prior to that. And a lot of weird stuff happened. And guys went here, there, everywhere. Because like I said, the crew itself predates me by a little bit. I mean, still, now, I mean, being a part of that since I was 16, since 92 or whatever, it's a long time. But it existed a few years before me. But it was splintered. It was kind of like two factions and one became obsolete. And so, yeah, I naturally fell into that extended family. And the rest is like, you know, that it became kind of part of Mad Ball too. Because I drop a many suckers. Exactly, exactly. It goes on to influence the name of a couple records. We're almost there. It's a family. It's the family. I got you. It's just so, like Colin was saying, so kind of integral with the identity of the band. It would feel odd to just not even. No, I'm glad you brought it up. And I had no issues at all with that. I mean, it really, you know, I never considered it a gang or anything like that. It's, you know, I mean, we always, we dealt with a lot throughout the years. You know, we had our share of trouble, past stuff, stuff that, you know, we were part of. But like, I never wanted to like, you know, just calling it a gang to me sort of diminishes what it meant to me or what it means for some of us. It's an it's like family more than than just like, you know, just some random crew. Anyone can come up, look at the alphabet, grab a couple of few letters and come up with a crew. It's like straight edge, you know? You can be you can be drug free, but you can't be straight edge if you're not part of the culture. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. And exactly. And it's an important, you know, it's definitely became something important to us, especially being a young guy. You know, I'm trying to, you know, find myself trying to figure things out. I'm in this big city. Sure, I have big brothers and sisters that are looking out for me here and there. But you knew yours. But I'm trying to find my own way. Yeah, you know, and my brother told me very early on when I moved in with him, he's like, I can't afford to rate to support you. I vouch for you to come here and live with me. But we're living in a squat. I'm not like he's not Mick Jagger, you know, like we're not like no one's rich. Yeah. He's like, you're going to have to make your way. And he instilled a good work ethic in me because I got a job like right after he said that. And then, you know, I always had a job for years. What was that first? I worked at San Loco, a taco place, a Mexican joint. Very. And he was living in that. Yeah, I believe so. They ended up opening like three or four of them. Like they grew up. All right. But my brother knew the owner and Darryl, great guy, and I needed a job. And so like I went in there and like I worked the cash register. Like I like that was my first job ever. It was cool. Yeah. It was cool. It was wild. It was open till four in the morning and it was on like right off of St. Mark's on like first or second. So like you saw the wildest stuff. Yeah. You know, bums coming in bleeding. The wildest. I came in bleeding and I just laughed. I was like, don't get that on me, bro. I went out and looked for like a big stick. Like I just wanted distance. I was like, I'm going to clunk this guy with this stick. And it didn't. I mean, he ended up, you know, we ended up getting him out of there. But like you'd see the wildest stuff at like two, three, four in the morning in the city. Yeah. Drunk idiots. I mean, you name it, you know, so it was a learning experience to say the least at job, but a good lesson. Yeah. To, you know, stay like, yeah, you got to work. It's not a free ride in any sort. Yeah. And the hardcore stuff certainly wasn't going to pay the bills. Right. And that came later anyway, you know, like I had the job before we were actively doing shows and stuff. So yeah, no, my brother told me early on, like you're going to have to, you know, like, man up saying that it's not a free ride saying that you were living in a squat and that what was I'm sorry, what was his partner's name from nausea? Amy. Amy took that picture. It reminded me of one of my favorite pictures of your brother where he's holding like a machine gun. Oh, yeah, I remember that. It's in the squat. Like that's like the caption is always like in where they lived. And I just like, you said that and I was looking at that photo. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, you're living in like a kind of wild place, you know, like ABC, you know, you're in like the alphabet alphabet city is no joke. Right. If you know anything about like, you know, that area of New York, you know, especially when you get to Avenue D, the projects down there and Avenue D is a whole other thing. You don't really go to Avenue D unless you know people or like, you know, yeah, it can get crazy down that way. There's a lot going on. When did that change? It's different now. I think D is still kind of like, you better be careful. But like, I mean, gentrification and like New York in general has has started to morph into like a safer place, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But an expensive place. Much more expensive thing for sure. I mean, I saw it a lot. It was already happening, I think, in the 80s. But even when I moved there in the 90s, early, very early 90s, I saw it because I saw it happening. Was that Giuliani? Is that who like this was pre Giuliani? So I think when I moved there, was it Koch? But there was a big like, I don't know, like I forget what who was the mayor, but it was pre Giuliani. But then Giuliani came in and cleaned up and cleaned up. Yeah. Yeah. I've always been curious just from the other perspective. What were your thoughts on the Krishna stuff happening in hardcore early on and throughout the 90s? Nothing. Such a big thing. Yeah, it was a thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, like I respect like anyone's like spiritual connections or like religion or whatever. Like I'm cool with that. Like, I mean, like, you know, like. I'm always like, hey, you do you, man, if you feel like that's your thing, you know, I never had an issue with it. I mean, I thought, you know, I mean, yeah, it was definitely a big part of the scene. Like, you know, you had that faction. You know, it's nothing that I was attracted to. Sure. Yeah. But I know a lot of guys that were like, you know, into that whole scene and like, yeah, to each his own, you know, so you just kind of saw it from afar like, huh? Yeah. Yeah. This is an interesting aspect to this whole hardcore thing. But you have so many different things, you know, like you had like the street element, which was us. Yeah. You know, like we like I said, we were like these thuggish kind of, you know, kids that loved hip hop, but also were hardcore kids. So like you have that element, right? And then you have like Krishna and then you have straight edge. And you had like just the old school, the elders who were just like, we're probably looking at everyone like, what's going on? You guys are all crazy. What's happening with this? Were you ever straight edge? No. No, no. Always respected it, though. I always, you know, I always had friends that were, like I said, I was very close with Toby for a lot of years. You know, he's got me still my friend, but. And he was always straight edge, always. And there were always a couple of guys like that that hung out with us and like. They just didn't drink, didn't get into that kind of stuff. You know, they would mix it up with us if they needed to. But like they didn't drink, they didn't do drugs. Sure. I totally, totally respect that. Awesome. Yeah. I thought it was cool. I was like, good man, good for you. It's great. Yeah. Love it. No, it's it's yeah. I encourage that. I want that for my kids. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, like, you know what I mean? Like, that's what my dad said. I enjoy my couple of drinks. I'm not a big guy. I'm not into drugs. Like I'm not a drug guy. Like I just enjoy my sip on a little something here and there. But like, yeah, I encourage it. I encourage it. Matt Henderson. Okay. Enteres the band. OK. And is such a big part of what would become the Mad Ball Sound. New York Sound. The New York. Well said. How does he get involved and when do you guys start putting together the first fully original Mad Ball material? He joined AF. People are going to be like, is this interview about Ignacic Fruits? Well, he has to. It's a family. If we know it. And they're dying to hear. I'm sure there'll be time enough for for Mad Ball anyway. Yeah, we're getting there. Again, there's such a direct connection and lineage that it has to be, you know, talked about. But Matt joined AF right before one voice, which I think is. After victim of pain, a very important Ignacic Fruits record. Where was he? Who found him? Roger just found him. Yeah, I think Blind Approach, Mattie's band played a show at AF. Maybe in New York, Minneapolis, it could be both. It could be both. And Roger immediately. Roger's good scout for talent. I got to say, I got to give him that, you know, he's he's he's a nut. He's a mad scientist, but he's a good scout for for for stuff. Because he he he recruited Will Sheppler. Who was also a very important drummer to at least for me. Again, bias, because Will is my my brother, but very important drummer in for New York hardcore, I think. I mean, if you ever hear Anthem, that beginning part, that's that's Will. So he recruited Will, he recruited Matt and and Craig and and Vinny recruited him. But but so really, Vinny's got it all. Huppet Vinny's got one. That's it. Vinny wins. But yeah, he saw something in him and then called him up and I'll let him, if you ever interview him, I'll let him tell his his own story better than I could tell it. But that's how we, you know, Matt was in the mix because AF was sort of like, what are we are we going to continue? Are we not going to do this anymore? And then we decided to do the second Mad Ball seven inch. I was at this point living in New York, living on 10th Street squat to be and see shout out to 10th Street squat. We decided to do drop many suckers. It was just kind of like, well, you're here, you're living here. Remember that Mad Ball thing and my nickname is still Mad Ball. I mean, literally all my homies that I talked about call me Mad Ball. You know, before the band was established, really, you know, like Toby, Isaac, all these guys called me Mad Ball. That was like how I was introduced to people. You know, this is Mad Ball. What's up? How you doing? You know, so like, yeah. So what we might as well try something else. Roger had some music. Mattie Henderson had a couple of riffs that were not AF, you know, not for AF. And it just started compiling these songs at the 10th Street squat in that, you know, like just getting together. Roger had a big booklet of lyrics. Well, this is before I even knew how to write lyrics. And just started going through the lyrics and like, oh, this could be a song. And then John Minisuckers came together. So Roger's Roger and Mattie. I got to attribute I got to attribute. That music to them. And even lyrically to them, you know, yeah, I mean, like, you know, the right, maybe some of the aesthetics. I could give myself a little credit for and maybe editing a little bit because there was some like stuff there where it was like my brother was writing goofy lyrics and like purposely, you know, like a little like like on top on the nose, like a little like like on purpose. And and and so I was like, maybe change that word there. Maybe change that word there. But I didn't really know song structures. Lyric writing. I didn't know that too well at that time. It's coming soon. So that was where Mattie came in. Followed destruction 89. Yeah, which came out, I guess you would have been like 13, 14 by that time out by that time. This is 92. Yeah, big vocal change. Yeah, you grew up literally in between. Yeah, he had to. Yeah, it helps. It helps a lot. This is this is where I think you sound like you. Where Mad Ball sounds like Mad Ball, you know what I mean? Because we started for sure. Yeah. And we have like full fledged Mad Ball classics, what I would consider classics. Spinner and Grave never had it across your face. These are songs that are like the second they start, you know, exactly. Like, I know this song, you know, I mean, you can hear them this year. Yeah, wherever Mad Ball's at. I'm sure. How was the reception? Hardcore was in a weird place. And that's a great question because I think a lot of people think because we sort of. Were handed the baton and endorsed and sort of cosigned by the OGs. That it was automatically going to pop off for Mad Ball. And that wasn't really the case. You kind of had something to prove. Because we had to prove ourselves. Yeah, so. I wish it were a little easier, but it wasn't that easy. And like the timing of it was weird because like I said, hardcore right at 92 was like having a dip, a downward, you know, trajectory. And like AF was thinking about what they're going to do. My brother's thinking about a whole other career and like there's all this other stuff happening. So it wasn't probably probably wasn't the best time to start a hardcore band. We did have the cosign of the OGs and we did have the players. Yeah. I had a hell of a squad. You really did. By default, I had a great squad. Will and Maddie and Vinny, Vinny's personality, everyone, you know, I mean, I had a hell of a squad and Roger was playing bass at that time. So yeah, it wasn't easy. It was it was received better in Europe. Already right away already. But still not what you would think. Still not what you will. It's you're right. Hardcore is in such an interesting place because this is like the victory records era starting, Earth crisis, integrity, just pre. Yeah, right. Right. Like this is that the 90s. What the 90s would become is starting to happen. And like Mad Ball is the like continuation of the 80s. And like the spirit of hardcore. And you don't have like Crowd of Thorns 25 VOD like like may exist in some form, not really, though. I think they're they're this is pre them becoming bands. But then soon after they pop onto the scene, it's like who knows what would have happened had drop many suckers specifically not come out. You know? Yeah, I don't I really. Yeah, who knows is right, man. I mean, we we we like what we put together. Yeah, like we thought it was cool. Like even though like I was a little bit like some of the lyrics are like, it's not what I would have written, but there I don't know how to write. So sure. Yeah, right. Hey, yeah, so on the cover. Oh, yeah. You see here is Freddie and three guys who aren't in the band. Is that true? Yeah, that's a fact. That's a fact. Just guys. Holy shit. And I think that's another secret testament to you being Mad Ball, which is interesting. Who are these guys and who took this photo? Well, that's Hoya right there. Right here. Pre Mad Ball. He was just my homie. OK, OK. That's Isaac. And that's Narc. Wow. In the back. That's hard. Lord, I think there's a back picture of us as well. It might be inside. Maybe if you look at it, if there's another picture of us walking down the street, I'll give you another piece of lore. Oh, no, there's not. Maybe not. Well, there's another where you can tell. It's not on that. That should have been a gatefold. And we got to figure that out. Yeah, talk about that. Third press. Who who took the picture? You remember Amy? Amy took it. OK, wow. So fucking cool. Amy, Amy. That she's this. Yeah, because she's still in the mix. Like she, you know, I lived with Roger and Amy in the squat. So and then eventually I had my own spot in there. I got my, you know, I was able to like acquire. How does that work in a squat? It's pretty wild style. You just take or you not not really, you know, you know, you get to know the community and then you work your way in. And then, you know, it was a lot of family. There were families in there. It wasn't like it was cool. But this one in particular that I ended up in, we did kind of sort of take it. But it was because someone had taken it from a good person. So we usurped it back. Robin is it, you know? Yeah, we Robin Hood Robin Hood. So the framing, Amy did on that picture. She's good. It's fucking awesome. Good. Yeah, it's such a good thing. I think it still works. It's still work. So that's the squat. That was a big, empty like lot next to the squat. OK. So the building that I live in is attached to that picture right there. And there were these big gates and someone owned that lot and would randomly park their cars there or do whatever with that lot. But we somehow got in there, crept in there or something and then took that picture and Amy, yeah, she caught a good angle. She did she did do that. And the street angle, which I don't know why it's not there. Third press. The reason I bring that up is because you mentioned Steve Huey before. Steve Huey is in the street shot. Awesome. So and Narc, my buddy, Narc, who's one of my very close friends is Steve Huey's brother, his younger brother, more my age. Steve is a little older. But Steve was in the street shot. So if you ever see the original, it's me and those same guys. And there's an additional guy that Steve Huey. Awesome. I love it. Yeah. So ball of destruction, one of the greatest hardcore sevens of all time. Drop many suckers, one of the greatest hardcore sevens of all time. You too kind. No, no, no, it's real. Don Fury, did he do? He did this one as well. OK. Yeah. Tell me about working with Don. He's a funny guy, man. He's he's he's he's an interesting dude, man. Yeah, he was, you know, he did a lot of say what you want about him, but he did a lot of classic New York hardcore stuff, man. Like his name is like very important to the culture. Yeah, it was kind of similar to the first one. We kind of just went in there and like banged it out. Like we had these songs, ran through them. Think we went to like Gray Area or whatever whatever studio we went to and like rehearsed the stuff. And I figured out the cadence of like how I was going to do it. I will say that. I think. I was like a little bit self conscious about the fact that the first one, I was a little kid and sounded like a little kid. So I think I purposely tried to sound older. Sure. Compensate a little. Oh, I'm dropping many suckers. I did a little, you know, like I kind of like, you know, I mean, it's my voice. It's my tone. There's no effects on it. It's very, you know, basic recording. But I did sort of try to like bring out this heaviness to try to, because I still had that complex of like, oh, I'm a kid. So I need to sound like a man. And there is that feeling when you're a kid of like, I can't wait to be grown and do whatever I want and do this, take this around the world. And then you look back and you're like, man, I really wish I just appreciated being a kid. Exactly. Exactly. When you get to this stage, then you're like, uh, that was cool being a kid. That was cool being a kid. But yeah, I did a little bit of that on that record. But same kind of deal. Recording was like quick and yeah, it was fun. You know, this time, different players for backups and different guys showing up at the studio now we're in the early 90s. So but Tom Fury's the studio itself didn't change much. OK. It didn't change. The sound did. Yes. The sound did. Sounds great. Yeah, I agree. I agree. The sound got a little better. Sounds great. It also has there's some B sides and unreleased stuff that was on like the triple B re-release with what ready to fight is on. Yeah. So I think I think Frenter Faux is on it. Yeah, those are all. There's there's a few other to do our version of it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And yeah, what was this was the session more than the six songs or something that are on the probably probably we probably recorded a few more and then narrowed it down to the ones that ended up on there. But it wasn't like this big like a mad boy. Like it wasn't like this big announcement went out in New York. Like here's this new. But like it ticker ticker. Like I can remember our first show was like early on. It was like bad. Like we played this show in NYU and it was like maybe 50 people there. Really? And it was like, well, this is going to be rough. Like we did not inherit AF fan base. Interesting. Like, you know, I initially. Sure. I think eventually we started to get some of those guys. Like when they took know some of the older school took notice. You know, that started happening, you know, when like wetlands came in and and Coney Island and CB still was in the mix. And the show started to come back up. Then people started to take notice of us. But those first, first shows right after we dropped that were rough. Did you tour around the country on this? No, we went to South America. Oh, OK. Brandedly got invited to Buenos Aires. How does that happen in 1992? I don't even remember like someone called us like, hey, you know, they love you out here. I'm like, what? Like, yeah, like, who what? And I thought it was cool because I'm, you know, that's my ethnicity. You know, like I'm Latin, like so I'm like, oh, wow, like in South America, really. And so somehow someone got us in touch with someone and like they were like they were into dropping many suckers out there. And I don't know. Somebody came to New York and like found it and like brought it out there. And so we did a version out there where like I did an interview with someone in Argentina and I'm speaking Spanish and they put it on like this South American version of dropping many suckers. Oh, cool. And just, I guess, to kind of connect with the people because no one spoke English. But then there was a connection because like, oh, they speak Spanish. Boom. Go to Buenos Aires and it's like, how other world compared to New York, completely packed club. Really? People losing their minds. By then it was in the band. Yeah. Roger was trying to figure out his life and you can ask him what he was doing. But we needed a bass player. And it wasn't like he left us hanging dry. It was just kind of like I'm going to do my thing. We should probably get a young guy. You should probably get something. And naturally I look into my pool of friends. You look at the album cover. Yeah. I'm like, well, it plays bass. He was in a band called Demise and, you know, and Vise is still active at the time. Yeah, they're back now, which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wild. But they were active, but not, you know, and then Hoya jumped all over the opportunity and and boom. And so his first trip and my first trip overseas was Argentina. You know what? I will say there was one tour before that. Mad Ball opened up for Agnostic Front in Europe. On a whole tour. So this is how you discover that Drop of Many Suckers. Before Hoya. OK. Roger on bass. OK. And Drop of Many Suckers made the rounds a little bit out there, but not. We had it with us. We were like selling it on the road and like hustling it, you know. And people did not know Mad Ball out there. Some did from ball destruction, but. It wasn't like an overwhelming reaction when we played. It was nothing like that. But did you then watch AF in Europe and go where we need to like coming here consistently is something is a goal like that's this this seems to work. I could definitely see that there was something happening there and it was something important. And AF obviously got a different reaction. But that was only like their second time going there. So we went with them. We went with them on their like second trip to Europe. Was that a third? Maybe third. Was that a van? Van tour in Europe. Do you remember? It was a tour in a 60s. Old 60s tour bus. Oh, like like almost famous, like the old. Wild style tour bus like someone like I think MAD like secured this like. Tour bus that we would sometimes have to push to get it started. Yeah, it was wild. Wild days. So downhill was good. Yeah, that was always good. That was always good. Let me ask you. Mad Ball is is headlining Buenos Aires. Yeah. You have. Fourteen minutes of music at this point. Yeah, we have all destruction and drop the minisuckers. Yeah, how you got a full agnostic front set. How long is the headlining set for Mad Ball? Like what do you. At this time, I mean, we would add like like like we would add AF stuff. Sure, just add some to folks who's five, you know, all the classics like that. And then all ball destruction. Because the go to such a channel. I don't remember if we had any set it off songs when we went out there. Like that we were starting to write. Maybe, maybe not. I mean, we might have had like a song or two that we were starting to put together. But yeah, it was really just older material that we had that that we had to like make the most of it. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And we did. We made the most of it. We made the most of it. I mean, but yeah, that was the first time we got a reaction where we were like, whoa, people like us, you know, because even in Italy, I remember we played like Rome on that tour. And I remember the whole tour was like a bum out for us. This is brutal, dude. Like I'm out there trying to get in people's faces. I'm going out into the crowd. I'm doing everything possible to get a reaction and it's rough. And there would be there would be times where I can get him going. But for some reason, when we got to Italy or like, like I'm pretty sure it was Rome. It was like an explosion for Mad Ball. And I was like, oh, what's this about? Like this is different. That's just some Italian guy. Yeah. Like bringing the records like like this right off the way, you know, like the Italians they were feeling us. And yeah. And then next time I felt that same thing was like when we went to Buenos Aires. Unbelievable. And that was just they're still one of the best. That place is still one of the best places to play in the world for us. OK. Those people have tremendous amounts of passion. Yeah. Like they do. Got to go. They do. I've never been. They do hardcore, right? OK. Good to know. Now it's time. It's time. OK. The big one. We have to set it off. 1994. You have to. The debut Mad Ball LP following up one of the sorry, following up two of the greatest hardcore EPs of all time with one of the greatest hardcore LPs of all time. Tell me about putting this together. This is album one. You know, it. Howie Abrams. We're playing shows around town at this point with Drop Many Suckers. And. How we maybe went to a show or heard that I was like back at it with Mad Ball, you know, after he had put out all the destruction and. Yeah, he sort of was like, are you going to are you doing this again? I'm like, yeah, I mean, we're like kind of serious. Like, I don't know. I mean, as serious as one could be at that point. Yeah, you don't know. You don't know. We don't know. Like, you know, like the A.F. guys that are in my band are not even sure if they want to keep doing music at this point because they had done some a lot of touring with A.F. You know, and some of it was great and fun and whatever. But like it's not the most lucrative thing and whatever. And guys are getting older anyway. So the guys are like, yeah, I'm kind of serious. Everyone's kind of playing it by ear. Like we're we're going to be as serious about this as it allows us to be. Howie comes into the picture and. Offers us a deal with Roadrunner. Three albums. Yeah, maybe a million. I don't know. Like at that point, like what that contract said, like I still don't know what that contract says. But like, no, yeah, three. Yeah, yeah, we were we were down for three. And that's a big deal. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. Now, especially at that time, especially being a band that's not really like we're not popping up, you know, like nowadays you got bands that are like even without an album or like hyped and are popping. So like I can see a label approaching them and going like, you know, you're the hot thing. Yeah. But we weren't really the hot thing. But the scene itself was sort of weird. So it wasn't necessarily our fall either, but it was like it was just a weird time. So but we were going for it and playing and trying to build it back up. And other new bands were coming out, starting to pop up. And so he saw something in us again. You know, he saw something in us again and was like, hey, I'm starting to I'm A&R at Roadrunner now. And at the time, we just knew Roadrunner was like Sepultura, Typo negative, like all this stuff that's like compared compared to our world. Foreign and huge. But then Biohazard and Life of Agony were simultaneous with this. So it's like this hardcore boom is happening. Yeah. Biohazard were having a moment like Biohazard was the one band that for sure, like in the early 90s, like especially 94. We're having a moment. Yeah. But they were transcending everything. Your regular hardcore scene. Right. Even if they come from the scene and my brother was close with like Evan and like. So like we knew the Biohazard camp. Were you in the punishment video? We went to all those videos. Like I wasn't that guy that was trying to get my face in the mix a lot because there's some guys out there that were like really like feeling themselves. They really wanted to be seen. And that's fun. Yeah. That wasn't my bag, but I was there. If I'm not in the shot, it's because I'm behind the scene. Like I'll let those guys, I'll let all of you know, let them have their moment. But I'm in like a scene where like I think it's like me and Kevin from Bulldoze Recipes and like. Somebody jumps on the Brooklyn bridge. Like I go like that because like they jump on my head. And that's like the coolest part of the movie. The best part. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm one of the guys going, ah, don't kill me. You know, like, but, you know, but no, but we were dancing like we were dancing on the bridge, you know, and by dancing, I mean, you know what I mean. Oh, yeah. Which we should talk about. Yeah, yeah, let's get there. So it's like me, Kev. Probably Saab, might as you know, whoever. Saab is right there. Like all of you know, that whole squad. That's awesome. And that was, I think, the only shot I came out in, maybe. But there is a picture with the dogs and the band. Yeah, there's there's a picture and you I think you can see you. I could pretty much see everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we were there. They invited us because. You know, they were doing this whole style that was very like. You know. Connected to the streets, you know, this whole Brooklyn thing, you know, and and and and they're from Brooklyn. They weren't being disingenuous, disingenuous. They were like legit from Brooklyn. But I think they also knew that we were like actively running around in the streets. We were like hoodlums running around. So like they and we were from the scene. Yeah. And they know people. We all knew each other. So naturally, yeah, they invite us to be a part of that whole movement. Yes. You know, I don't want to say to give it credibility because they had their own credibility, but it gave it a little more. What's interesting is like they're not DMS. No, the the the music video is DMS. Kind of. There were a couple of crews in there. OK, because at the time, some of the guys weren't necessarily us. They were like B.Y.B. They had their own like Brooklyn thing, you know, and then some of them old sunset sunset crew, you know, sunset crew, sunset skins. Some of them became what they called it B.Y.B. Right. It was called B. Boneyard Boys or something. Yeah, I think it was B.Y.B. It was like Saab and a couple of those guys. Eventually, over time, a lot of that morphed into us. Sure. Sure. We absorbed a lot of gotcha just because just by natural order of of course. Of course. But so are you seeing. Would you have gone? You probably would have. I want to ask anyway. Would you have gone with the Roadrunner thing? If you didn't see Biohazard as like, hey, they. Yeah, I would have totally gone with it. Yeah. Yeah. Because we had no other. We didn't have any options. Yeah, true. There were not a lot of people knocking on our door to like put stuff out. It just so happened that the one that did knock on our door was a big one. Was the biggest one. The biggest one for our head music. I mean, wreckage put out that drop many suckers and they were just kind of like, what did they put out? I don't know. Like, look it up, like Google it. I don't like the like. Truth to this gods. I don't know like what they put out. So they weren't like a victory or. Sure. Yeah, sure. Whatever other labels at that time. But Roadrunner. But Roadrunner was a big deal. It was on the strength of on the strength of how he and he saw us play and he thought he was impressed by the show or something. And he was like happy to see that I had given in another go after ball of destruction. And yeah, at that point, like he invited us to the office, I think on Broadway at the time and we sat with him and he talked about like, are you guys going to like tour and, you know, all these questions? And we're like, well, I mean, yeah, we're willing to, you know, like, I mean, I'm a kid, so I don't care yet. I think I'm still in high school at the time or something. So I'm like, yeah, I don't care. I don't care about school. Now, three sixty deals were common at the time. Was that something you guys? We didn't do a three sixty deal for you, which which to the people not. We didn't do a three sixty deal. What we did was a merch deal with them. OK, three sixty. Oh, yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry. So three sixty deals basically your salaried by the label. And and if your if your sales exceed that salary, you don't get that the label. It's a bad deal. It's bad in my personal opinion. I don't, you know, and there's people that have taken that deals even now. Oh, yeah. Bands that have taken that deal and bands that are successful, that have had success, that have taken that deal. And the good thing about success, I guess, is that, you know, and when I mean success, I mean, you know, numbers and all that stuff. The good thing about that is that you can let you can leverage that and renegotiate a deal. So there's always that. But we didn't do three sixty. We did a like four or five album thing. And part of it was you sort of weren't forced to sign the blue grape. But you were encouraged to sign a merch deal as well. You did one. We did with blue grape. Blue grape was attached to Roadrunner at the time. Oh, yeah. And they were. Doing everybody's merch. I don't I have a lot of old mad ball shirts. Yeah, we have some blue grape ones floating around. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were with blue grape. Yeah. Another funny thing is we were on Rush Management Rush, the Rush Management, like the hip hop Rush. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Also to do with Roadrunner and those relationships. Yeah. Yeah. How how long? Rest in peace to Scott. But yeah, how long was Mad Ball a blue grape band? Because that like I a little bit first early on, early on. That is fascinating. Yeah. And I feel like it was part of the deal. And we didn't care or know any better. So we were just like, yeah, sure, somebody cares about us. Somebody, you know, wants to put out an album. But does the merch deal is that just like you're still hands on and designing and producing? Yeah, we definitely had say like I think. Aesthetically speaking, for sure. Sure. We would be like, I don't like that. I don't like that. You know, I've always been very much like that always mattered to me. Good. You can tell. I mean, some of the greatest like it's still the like the Mad Ball longs. The blueprint for hardcore merchandise is you go and you look up old Mad Ball. So you go, OK, OK, good. I got an idea now. I shouldn't say me. It mattered to all of us. Yeah. Like as a band. I mean, as a collective, as a group. But being Mad Ball and being the guy who's obviously still. Yeah. I mean, it's all there. The name, my name, whatever. Yeah, sure. It's like my brand or whatever. So yeah, it's important for it was always important for it to like come across. I mean, there were shirts that I hated that people love now. Yeah, they're worth a thousand dollars. Yeah. You know about that? And I was like, I never liked that design. I was like, that design sucked. Like I hated it so bad. And I let it ride. And one one we called one like the chicken bone shirt, where it just looked like these splintered bones and it made like that. I know that one. It's like and people love that shirt. Yeah. It's worth a lot of money. Go to MillsBentons.com. Wow. So it just goes to show you. Maybe I know what I'm doing. Maybe I don't. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. But back to the thing. Yeah, we were we were a blue grape band. Interesting. As part of that initial. So for the whole time. No, no, no, no, no. I feel like. Some at some point, we got off blue grape or it was like partially blue grape. And then we kind of did our own thing in Europe with someone else. Maybe I think all my like set it off. Mad Ball stuff is screen stars. Thanks. I have stars in total. Yeah. So did you care about that at the time? Were you like, I want the screen stars blind? No, that's a thing now, though. Oh, yeah, for sure. Big time. I know that for sure. Yeah. I know that even just seeing like a blue grape tag or whatever money. It's like that's dollar signs. That's a big deal. Yeah. So now we didn't we didn't know we didn't. I mean, we were stylish in our own way, like an old rugged way. So we were like we knew what we liked, but we didn't care about like what who made the shirt kind of thing. OK, so much like that wasn't that big of a deal. So who is writing? Set it off musically. OK, so. Part of set it off comes from Drop Many Suckers. Sure. So we naturally were like, well, we need to do some of those songs again. Absolutely. Because we didn't think a lot of people, you know, like not a lot of people heard Drop Many Suckers. I mean, let's be honest, you know, so. Spit on your grave. Never had it cross your face. So we like automatically like hijacked part of that. And then that gives us somebody to the record. Yeah. And the production quality. Quality goes up. Why would you not want? Yeah, let's do this on this preservation, you know. And then the writing was Matt Henderson, of course. Hoya comes into the mix. He starts bringing in riffs. Naturally, Willie's doing his willy thing, of course. And on set it off is like, should. Yeah. Unleashed. Iconic. Yeah. Yeah, I think. Set it off and and demonstrate my style where maybe two of Willie's best drumming records. Period. Sorry, Willie. Not to take away anything. I thought one of the AF records. No, but one of our four. I think I really stepped outside of his own box. It's a totally different feel. It's a different rhythm. Different feel. And there's genre defining. It's not just that they're like band defining or person defining. I mean, and he was on classic AF records. So like he's not some slouch. You know, as well, Shepler would talk about, you know, he's doing it again. He's, you know, came in on Liberty and Justice and for AF and then was through the rest of. So, yeah, he really, he really did his thing. I would say the majority of the riffs are Maddie and Hoya, for sure. Are you fully taking over lyrics? I fully take over lyrics. Wow. Barring a few songs. That's where I started to learn how to write lyrics. And I did that like I wanted to do that. I was like, OK, I'm not, you know, I got to speak for myself at this point. Like I can't let other people write for me. Like would drop a many suckers or ball of destruction, which was more of my lyrics at all. And for people following along at home, this is 94. So you're 18, 19. Yeah, 94. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's daunting for anybody at age. But, you know, it's that's a. Yeah, it's so. And I saw a record. The first day. You know, I still cringe at some of the lyrics I wrote, but it was also honest and raw and real. And that's all we could ever, you know, it's all we could ever, you know, that mean that's one thing that you're never going to not get from that. But I mean, it's honest. It's real. It comes from a real place. Real experiences. Yeah. And that's what I was writing, you know, and then there were a couple of songs that I didn't write. Set it off was written by Hoya. There. Wow. Yeah. Oh, so I got to credit him for that. I may have thrown my own little accents and cadence and maybe a word or two here and there, but like that was his song. I think that was a song he had been holding on to for a long time because he was very excited to show us that song and then it became set it off and track one. Rightfully. Rightfully. Yeah. Hell of a song. I remember he posted a video, like a real yeah, of explaining how he used to write riffs and he would loop hip hop drum beats like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like on YouTube or something like wherever. Wow. Yeah. He definitely had his own program of how he did things. Maddie was definitely definitely the lead guy. Yeah. The most accomplished. Experienced. You know, older. Well, him and Willie are of the same age, but like, you know, the older guy in our camp at this point, I mean, Vinny's in the camp, of course. Yeah. But Vinny's just like the overseer. Like he's just like, I'll let you kids do your thing. I mean, you know, when it's time to hit the stage, I'm going to do my. He's happy to be there. You're happy to have. He's happy to be there. We're happy to have him. We got that endorsement from the godfather. Yeah. And Vinny loves Mad Ball. He really does. Legit to the state. Yeah. I mean, I know, like, you know, I know I'm since I'm a kid. He's like a he's like an older brother to me. We're like family and all that. There's that. But does it mean he has to like Mad Ball as much as he does? He genuinely. Always believed in Mad Ball, but genuinely loves it. So he's a cheering us on and the whole thing. But Maddy's lead and Maddy knows song structure. He knows, you know, he's sort of like the producer, you know, built in producer. Yeah. And he's even taken whatever Hoy is bringing to the table and he's loving it. But he's also putting it into the format that makes sense. Processing and a little bit of hearing, literally producing. Yeah, producing. And I'm hearing it all. And he was even helping me with lyrical, like. Setting apart choruses versus verses. It's funny because I know this stuff so well now. But like back then, I was just so green and like, I was like, you know, I was like. But I started to figure it out pretty quick. And Matt did like the stuff I was writing. He did like a lot of the, you know, the spirit of what I was writing, the stuff. So he just kind of helped me like clean it up and formulate things. And so Maddie was really the the the producer, the built in producer and a lot of, you know, obviously a songwriter and Hoy as well. I wrote most of the lyrics, maybe a couple of songs. I didn't. But yeah, then that that was that was how it started to come together. I think we went to like. At that point, we were going to maybe the music building in like Midtown, Manhattan. The music building, the music building. Yeah, I feel like. The lore is Madonna was there and like. Live there or something like, you know, squatted there, but like wrote some stuff there. I don't know, like a bunch of bands were in and out of there. It was like, it was like a thing. But we knew a band that had a spot there. So we like bought into their spot. Yeah. Bought some time. And I could be wrong. It might be gray area. There were a few places that we would rehearse at. There was like this crazy downstairs basement spot. I think it was gray area and there were various rehearsal spots, but the music building really stands out to me and just put them together, man. Just started like, you know, like someone would bring a riff, you know, either Maddie, Hoy or whatever. And then just build on that riff and they were like, you know, the songs just started to come together and, you know, that's all those newer songs came to be. And lyric sort of came on top. OK, yeah, of course. Nothing came lyric lyric first. It was more. OK, that's the way I hear this. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Nowadays I do. I have, I like, you know, more involved in writing. So like I'll I'll get like a chorus can influence a riff. Totally. Yeah. A phrase. Yeah. You know, but back then it was all like I was very reliant on, you know, what I heard to inspire me. Sure. Is it you who says we don't fake it? We just take it. OK. So that was probably my idea from my idea to use that sample. Oh, so I always the rumor was that it was you. No. That was Will Shepler. Wow. Yeah. Will had the deepest voice of all of us. Speaking voice. You know that? No. Will Shepler had the deepest speaking voice. I love that movie, American Me at the time. Yeah. Bang. It was a classic. And I mean, I saw it in real time at the movie theater. I was like, wow, this is this is dope. You know, and then so I obviously borrowed from that. With all respect. Yeah, of course. You know, and there were lines that resonated with with me and my friends and like how we were living as well. So it wasn't like, you know what I mean? We were faking the funk. It was it was, you know, stuff that was relatable to our. Lifestyle. So I had the idea to use a sample, but it wasn't translating on the thing. And then there was also the clearance stuff and whatever else possibly. So we had Willie do it in the studio. That's the way to do it. Yeah. He really did. OK, that works. Boom. Wow. Yeah. With the street noise and everything, the the squirrel noise. Yeah. I forgot whose idea was to do. Yeah, we all kind of collaborated on like whose idea was to like do like the but but the New York feel to have like the street sounds and like all that. Yeah, we're going to get to a couple of them real quick. One more thing about your voice specifically on this record. Oh, no, no, no, no. I don't love it. It was a rumor when I was young, like like in high school. And it's probably when I discovered this record that you whisper yelled it. Yeah, I knew this wasn't going to be true, but it's one of those things I want to. I've never whisper yelled anything. I don't even know what that is. It would be like that's like an oxymoron. It would be like to whisper yell right between the lines. Oh, God, no, no. Hey, great to hear. But I don't love my vocals on that album. You're kidding. I'll say that. I'm sorry to say that. I do. Yeah, yeah, I do. As long as you guys. Yeah, that's great. And I'm good. And whoever else out there likes it. I think it was the effect that they put on it. Whatever compression and compression, whatever Jamie Locke put on it at the time. Let's talk Jamie Locke. Yeah. First of three records with Jamie. Yeah. Tell me about working with him and dialing in what nice guy. Very nice guy, very like. How do I say this without sounding offensive? I mean this in the best way, but very like squarish looking guy. Like not the guy you would think was doing a mad ball record and crafting the mad ball sound. Yeah, yeah, like regular dude glasses, like very regular dude. OK, but clearly. Yeah. Genius like behind the boards and like was like new his stuff. I mean, he had worked, I think, at Normandy. That's how we met. Jamie was. A.F., I think, worked. With him in some capacity at Normandy. Did he do one voice? He was involved in one voice, I think. I think he was involved in one voice. He was technically not the guy that was supposed to do one voice, but something happened and then like Jamie came in the mix with other people. Don Fury was producing on that too. But I was there. I was in and out of there when they were doing one voice. I remember popping in. I don't know if I did backups or not, but I remember when they were recording that. But Jamie came from that Normandy camp. And then we somehow, I don't know if Maddie stayed in touch with him or whatever, but like we got in touch with Jamie and he got on board with our stuff. And then so we were working with him at whatever studio he was working out of. So like. One of them was like Michael Johnson's studio in. In like Mass area. Funny enough, we've never recorded an album in New York. Interesting. Really? Yeah. How crazy is that? You could have meant that. It's never too late. Yeah. Might be time. Album 10. We've already done. We have one about the drop. So maybe the next one. Maybe the next one. But album 11. I don't know why. I don't know why that is. Well, I just imagine getting around the city with instruments is hard enough. Dude, there's like a home video of Warzone going to a show and Ray's going around picking everybody up. And it's like VHS camera, like in a van. It looks like the biggest nightmare. It's insane. Oh, it's a nightmare. Yeah, the city could be a nightmare. Speaking of New York City is my favorite hardcore breakdown of all time. That song is I think my favorite Mad Ball song. I may agree. And I think it is like the rawest vulnerable. And I mean that in like a complimentary way. Yeah, thank you. And just one of like a blueprint of how I think a song should go. Truly, it's one of my favorite songs. Appreciate that. Did you write those lyrics? Yes, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Yeah, for sure. You encapsulated the hardship of early 90s New York City in the hardest song on the tell us about that song. We love it so much. Yeah, it was just the vibe of the song. I can't remember who wrote the riffs. Like it was probably a collaboration of of of of Maddie and Hoya riff wise. But the vibe of it. You guys know because you're both right songs and you're both in bands and your musicians. And so sometimes a song has a vibe that brings you somewhere. And that's ultimately like, especially when you're writing to music, how you hear, you know, like, how it starts. Well, it's just envisioned the first lines, you know, starts with it. I see it every day, you know, and I like then I went from there. It was like it was the vibe of the music that set the tone for. The music formed the story. Was the the weapon at the beginning of the song sampled? Yeah, probably. That's cool. You stopped playing this for a long time. Through it. Throughout my entire youth. Did we? I would go. I went to. It's back on. It's back. Good. Thank God. I was always there and it'd be like, this is the time. They're playing it this time. I'm so happy. I'd be stretching. I'd be ready. OK, but I'm glad it's back. It's back. I think it's got to stay back. Yeah, you know, I forgot why we stopped doing it. It might have been one of those things where like we were personally feeling like it wasn't connecting. Sure. And you have that. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's songs that I personally would want to play. And it just never clicks live. So it's like, all right, I guess we got to, you know, toss that one to the side. I don't think that's the case with that one anymore. No, no. And we brought it back. And then since we brought it back, I feel like it. Connects with people a little bit. Big time. The. Vocal cadence to the verses. And tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Yeah. Are you did you come up with how that fit? I did. It's like a perfect. Yeah, I truly think it's like a perfect song. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, my cadence was always. Subconsciously or consciously influenced by hip hop. Yeah, you can definitely feel it in that song. So you're in the pocket. You're you're you're having syllables turn around on the riffs, you know, reality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I never quite went to rap rock route. Yeah, I think thankfully is right. I definitely have to attribute some influence to like just because that's all I listened to in the nineties. And I was like, I was such a poser with hardcore. I listened to hip hop the whole time. No, but no, I know I did listen to my share of hardcore. Is it off course, of course. But. Yeah, it definitely helped. I mean, it gave you a unique perspective. Help me understand. Yeah, it gave me. Yeah, it gave me a unique unique writing style. I guess you could say. I guess. Yeah. Lockdown. Yeah. Were you was this a story about a personal experience or? Are you saying about Roger or somebody else? Lockdown. I'm trying to think of the lyric. I'm trying to scan through the lyrics in my head right now. It wasn't it wasn't me because. I've done no wrong. I'm an innocent man. Yeah, you don't give a fuck. Yeah, it wasn't about me personally. It was about a couple of guys. It was influence, let's say. Sorry, I'm making this. Mike, I hope I'm not messing that up. It was influenced by. People in our camp. You know, friends that had. Got into some trouble and like, you know, all that. So yeah, I probably pulled from that, you know, at that point, at that stage in the game. I just wanted to write about real stuff, whether it was like our own experience, like what we were day to day stuff, like living in the city at that time, like running around doing what we were doing. Or if I could, you know, pull from someone close to us, their experience, and I would do that. Right. What you know is like the best advice. Yeah, I think, especially when you don't know what the hell you're doing. Sure. Sorry. No, as I said before, we are guys who love to know things and we love nods and we love just whatever references to other things that you kind of have to be in the know about, whatever. C-T-U-I-C, all right. Yeah. Is one of the coolest. I've talked about this on the show. Yeah, it's crazy. It's one of the coolest, just like a nod to another band and to another crew into this group of people from a different part of the country. Yeah. Where does Coltis Life and C-T-U-I-C, like when did you meet them? How does that work into the Mad Ball, like lore? I want to say I met them on a tour with AF where I had to fill in for my brother. There was an Ignostic Front tour where I had to, it was like, I guess you could say my training ground for Mad Ball. It was in 92, maybe prior to that, somewhere like that, maybe around close. You know, it's all like the time. But those years, you know, like 92, 93, like that timeframe. But it was Obituary, Ignostic Front, Malevolent Creation and Cannibal Corpse and Ignostic Front and Obituary were co-headlining. But I think Obituary was mostly headlining because it was a mostly death metal tour. That's actually where I was introduced to Obituary and I'm not a metal guy. Like I said before, I don't come from metal or punk. I appreciate all music. And I, you know, retroactively get to learn about stuff. And I think Obituary is one of the best metal, death metal, whatever you want to call it, of all time. Yeah, easily. Third top four. Of all time. For me, you know, and that's me coming from like I'm not a metal guy, but I really liked Obituary after that tour. I had to say my brother had to go just a quick version of it. My brother had to go do have a surgery, something happened, hernia, whatever it was, and he put me on the spot to sing. I didn't want to. I thought it was a big tour for them. And I didn't think that they would want to see a scrawny kid in place of my heavily tattooed brother who's a figure in that world. Yeah. So I did it anyway, because, you know, it's what we do. Family helps each other out and ended up having fun. The band had fun. We made the most of it. And the first show or second show was Detroit. So talk about being put on the spot. You roll up to Detroit. There's all these hardcore dudes there, tatted up, you know, Detroit had a look, you know, outside of New York. I would say visibly, like aesthetically, like hardness wise, outside of New York, Detroit was a standout scene. Because like New York was always known for like heavily tattooed chest tattoos and all that stuff and like had a look like they just had the look that matched the sound outside of that. I feel like Detroit was one of those places. Yeah. Faced tattoos and, you know, so anyway, those guys all come out to see my brother in AF and they get me. And, you know, and I was like, oh, how's this going to go? And, you know, I hit it off. They were like very supportive and like I hit it off with a few of them. And Ronnie, the original singer for Cold as Life was one of them. We hit it off really well. Jeff, you know, all those guys. And then when Mad Ball came into the picture and we started touring and just like it was a natural. Oh, and I think Cold as Life were invited to play an AF show at CB's. So it would have been it would have been AF. I think it was AF Marauder, Cold as Life. Demise and Mad Ball. Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty cool. It was Marauder with minus. Yeah. Wow. It was Marauder with minus. Hoya played with Demise. Cold as Life. So that would have been like 93, 92 demo. Yeah. And and and that's really where we hit it off. OK. They came to the city. So we met them in Detroit, but they came to the city. We hit it off. Couple, there was some Tom Fulery that happened that a couple places here and there. But we really we bonded and we had a barbecue on Vinny's rooftop in Little Italy. Um, there's pictures of that floating around somewhere. And there's also a picture where like they're all wearing Mad Ball shirts. Oh, I've seen. I think that's from that. Pretty sure. That's from that. So obviously we bonded, we connected. And I really, really, Ron and I became almost like, I guess, what would be like pen pals almost like. You know, and he was he was a hard dude, man. He was he was he was he was a real one. And we just had a connection. And he would write me to this 10 Street Squad. And I wrote him a couple of times. Before, yeah, yeah, of course, things. And so when he passed, it was like like it was like, man, this that sucks. Like somebody killed that dude, like he was a good dude, you know. And I mean, I, you know, you understand, you got to understand, like you live in a place like Detroit, you're in this certain element. Anything could happen at any time. You know, I know that well. You know, nearly lost my life on many occasions. So I understand. But it was like, it was like, that hurt, man. I was just starting to get to know this guy. What a good dude. Like it's it sucked. And is this one of your first instances like personally with I think so, I think so. I think so. Yeah, it was I hadn't lost many friends at that point. And or even lost many family members. And, you know, so. Yeah, it was a bum out. And so I did that as a tribute to Ronnie, especially. But CtyC, because, you know, those were the homies. I love it. We were like, you know, love it. Pay in tribute down by law, music video. Oh, my God, what are the stigma in the bandana? Yeah, classic. It's a sight to behold classic. That's that's that's good stuff. You should have seen us in Europe and you want to talk about bandanas and flandals. Stigma. Oh, oh, oh, oh, wow. Oh, who who directed this music video? True stone, true stone. Wow. OK. Was this the first music video first? Yeah, first. Is this like so Roadrunner's giving you the budget for a video? No, no, no. Oh, no, because we're like scrubs in that whole big thing. So but I mean, no, how he's doing the best he can do for us. Sure. And Roadrunner was, you know, we can talk about it at some point, but they were a huge help for us in Europe. Yeah, yeah, because they're a European label, essentially. But. We didn't have a major budget. We had people that were going to bat for us. But true stone at the time was popping off with the biohazard stuff. Biohazard was definitely. Doing its thing was like separate from like they were like their own thing. Yeah, you know, like, you have those bands that just do that. Like they're just them. They broke through like biohazard, hate breed. Like you have these bands that just they transcend hardcore and they just. And I want and we all have our own lane, per se, but they just go somewhere else and then just like, you know, so biohazard was doing a lot of videos. And Drew is a hardcore guy from the New York scene, old school. So and he loved Mad Ball. He would, you know, he would come and see us at like wetland, whatever. And so he said to us that he would he had some leftover film or something from these random all these various videos that he was doing for like biohazard or whatever other big band he was doing and that he would utilize some of that for us and like kind of do it on the arm, like for nothing. And I think he did get money for the second one, which was Pride. But the first one, I think he just did it for out of love. And it was Super Gorilla, you know, in Vinny's neighborhood, alleyway. You saw it was the song. Like lyrically, is this about a real person or is this a metaphorical guy? No, it's about I'd say it's metaphorical, but also based on some real people. OK. Yeah. Yeah. They're both, you know, influence, influence inspired by actual events, actual events. OK. Why was this song chosen to be the video? That's a good question. That's a good question, man. I honestly can't remember how we came to that. I don't know why. Maybe because we thought it was a little bit more mellow and palatable somehow to people because of the bounce of it. Yeah. Could be, you know, hip hop and like, and maybe, you know, this is a way to like ease people in to this craziness that we do. Which what people I don't know what we were thinking, like we weren't thinking like, hey, we're going to be on MTV, whatever. But like was this which we did end up being on MTV, actually. Funny enough. But yeah, I don't know what I don't know. I can't remember exactly the thought process that went into us picking which is my loss of was the label, maybe part of the decision. Maybe, yeah, likely, likely. And we respected, you know, because we were green. So we kind of were like and but it was also someone that we knew. Howie. So we're like, we trust you trust. We trusted him. Yeah. OK. Can you describe to me the feeling of just hearing like getting the master back for set it off and hearing this start to finish? How you guys felt about it? We thought it was definitely different than what was out there. Did you feel as though it was the product of my voice? I didn't know my voice, right? But I thought the production was solid. Yeah. Yeah. Especially for that time. You know, you're listening it. You're listening to it, you know, 90s with those ears. I mean, it's still the snare drum. It's still pretty solid, right? I haven't listened to it in a long while. It's unbelievable. Is it still is it still hold up? I listened to hours of Bad Ball yesterday. Yeah. Let me tell you something. Oh, cool. You've been in prep mode. Well, we didn't get ready. No, we were we were happy, like. With the overall. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everything from like the aesthetics of it, like that, you know, even like the cover to like everything. So we were we were we were we were stoked. We were psyched about it. Who's that baby? No one that we know. Yeah. That's a old like it's like everyone's while the full. Yeah, the real photo comes out. Oh, really? I feed. Yeah. It's like it's like he gave he gave his daughter a son a gun for christening or something. And it's it's honestly found it. It's this unbelievable metaphor for your life. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Funny. Right. I have to set you on this path when you're seven. And they gave me a gun and they gave you a microphone. There's another sample at the end, I believe, made it by top of the world. Yeah, right. That was from I. I always want to say it's strange. Like it's not strange. Cagney and Lacey. That's right. James Cagney. Made him top of the world. Is it hot? White, white, white, white heater. I had one of those kind of old school gangster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That might have come. I forget who that might have been Hoya that thought of using that sample. Very nice. Public domain. He's done it again. Public domain at that point. That might have been that might have been his idea for that sample. But yeah, we just. We we had these ideas to use these samples from things that we were like you know, that thought. Made sense with like the vibe and the lyrical content. Sure. The whole thing. So when Hoya presents, set it off the song. Yeah. Does that trigger any kind of emotion in you of like, yeah, this is this is the one. Let's go. You've done it. Yeah, we all thought it was dope. OK. Yeah, we all thought it was dope. I mean, I don't I don't remember how much refining Maddie may have done to it. But he could answer that better. But I don't think it was much. It was like, you know, not to like it was it was like a fully realized song, actually, when it came like even lyrics. So yeah, I mean, I give them all, you know, hats off to him for that, because that's hard to do. Big time. And he and really never really. Did that again after because, you know. Yeah, it's really. No, but you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like not like to discredit, you know, I'm not I'm not saying this in any kind of like negative way. But like, you know, he he was good at coming with riffs, but didn't always come with full songs. Fully realized songs. And I mean, maybe no one did at that time because, you know, maybe Maddie. Yeah. You know, because he was the most accomplished. But like, it was always like a mix of this riff, that riff, this, that. And then Willie comes in, you know, and then I throw my thing on top, my kind of deal. So it's hard to come with a fully realized song lyrics at all. And I think that was like maybe the first and only time that that happened for Hoya. But it was a hell of a song. Oh, yeah. Was a hell of a song. You still play it. Yeah, good. It was a hell of a song. Yeah. How close are you and Roger during set it off? Is he is he part of the process at all? Is he there? Is he present for any of it? He's I mean, we're close. Because he's he's still pretty sure he's still living in New York because he went away for a bit to go do some like he went to like Harley Davidson school in like Northern Florida for a little bit. But like I was just brief. Yeah, he's around. Yeah, he's around. He's around New York. He's kicking it around. He wasn't involved in like the writing process or anything like that. No, not so much. But cheering us on as always. He hears about the road runner contract. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's in the know for sure. He's in the know. He backs it. OK. He's he's like all four. He's like wanting me to like run with it. Because in his mind, I think at this point, he's done with music. Interest, I can't speak for him. Sure. He'll he'll elaborate. But that's my assessment. He's kind of like, OK, well, I've done this band since 80, whatever, two, one. Hardcore's changed a lot. Hardcore's changing. And it's always that and it's still that. And maybe I need to like secure some kind of like backup thing. And so that's what he went and did. But. It brought him back in. Sure. Yeah, sure. I would if we we assisted in that a little bit. Yeah, we we were almost there. We're almost there. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you without my older brother, you know, like without him showing me. It's but yeah. How how has your relationship changed through the years? And like, are you guys actively kind of pushing each other creatively? Definitely always rooting each other on. Definitely. I don't know that we're pushing each other creatively, like actively doing that. But maybe just by the fact that we're both active and doing our things, we are. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's never a competition like who's going to compete with AF? No one. So that's out of the that's. But, you know, there's always like, you know, everyone wants to do. You know, their thing at the highest level, right? Whatever their thing is. So yeah, they want that out of, you know, for themselves. And I want that for them. Yeah, they want that for us. Yeah, it's his approval. Yeah. More important than anybody's to you, maybe. It's important for sure. It's important for sure. I mean, ultimately, it's like the people that consume it and like want to be a part of the experience. That's a very important. Oh, yeah, that's that's number one. It's a universal. You know what I mean? When when obviously there's people like Roger, but other people, even friends that people that have been in this band. The perfect example is recently like Mitz. Mitz was a big part of our band for a lot of years. And he doesn't maybe doesn't get enough credit. Great guitar player. Also a good songwriter. And he recently heard our new album and was floored by it and loved it. Not to like insert that. But I have to insert it because it touches on your point. And that approval meant. More to me than if like a label guy would have said, it's great. Because he lived in this band for 15, 14 or 15 years. We've written together. We've done albums together and he's been removed from the band, not removed like I removed him. I'm saying he's been removed from the band setting. He retired. Whatever. But that approval meant a lot to me. So there's certain key people that really like them liking it is like almost more important than like if your label guy likes it or like if whatever. Yeah, of course. And thus concludes part one of this incredible five hour conversation with the great Freddie Maddball. Stick around next week when we talk about the New York hardcore documentary, the Agnostic Front Reunion. Demonstrate my style. Hold it down. Look my way and literally everything in between and after. See you next week.