The Hipster Grifter | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

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Go out and try Pepsi Zero Sugar today. let your taste decide okay well i have to do something to make money i have to pay rent i have to eat all of that you know i have to survive and so i was like okay what am i going to do here i don't want to be writing bad checks again i you know what can i do and so i started to to steal money from people, specifically white trust fund kids, who I would meet out at bars and at shows. Carrie, we were actually supposed to have this conversation a couple months ago. It didn't happen because you were not feeling well at the time, so I'm very happy you're here now. Also, funny story just before we start, that when you were outside with my producer, you mentioned she told you that you could leave your stuff behind there, that there was nothing to worry about. What did you say? I said, well, I'm the one you have to worry about. Which I thought. Which really funny. You have a sense of humor about it. Fortunately, now I can be like, well, I have a book that talks about why I can have that sense of humor. Exactly. So I'm going to introduce you to everybody. Carrie Farrell, welcome to the podcast, our guest today. you became known as a hipster grifter your cons went viral you even I mean you slide and stole money from people we'll get into that you also convinced people that you were cancer survivors for some time and all while stealing identities and running scams across at least two states but also most importantly you recently wrote an amazing book that I just started reading and I'm really into you're super funny and you're a great writer and the book is called You'll Never Believe Me, A Life of Lies, Second Tries, and Things I Should Only Tell My Therapist. Yeah. Just came out last year? Came out last year. Yep. Okay. Last January. You know, in media, we glorify authors as they should be, but it's always like, this is what I want to do. I'm going to sit down and I'm like, I wrote my book by slamming my head into the keyboard. It was a lot of, yeah, almost one-sided therapy, but I'm just beyond grateful that people are spending time with my words. And in some cases, if they're listening to the audio book, letting my vocal fry into their brains. Okay, let's take it all the way back. You grew up in Salt Lake City, right? Yep, a suburb of Salt Lake City. I was adopted when I was five months old, and my parents at the time lived in Phoenix. And at one point, you know, the Mormon missionaries came, knocking on the door asking if if you know my parents had time to talk about their lord and savior and they opened the door and they were like you know we have more than time we have an eternity and so my parents converted and we moved to salt lake city when i was two years old and wait can you tell me a little bit about your adoption story you're originally from South Korea, is that correct? Yep, from somewhere around Seoul. I, unfortunately, don't have much information and likely will not. We can get into it later, but there is a bit of, there's some irony in, you know, Korean adoption and how truthful and legitimate it may or may not be. That's right. We've looked into doing a story about this for when I was working on Traffect, about about sort of the, there was a big market of sort of illegal adoptions, or at least fraudulent adoptions, right? Exactly, and children and birth mothers were really used as commodities, and a lot of it was relationship building between South Korea and the U.S. Obviously, there's a lot of history between the two. And, yeah, the country of South Korea actually last year came out and admitted that a lot of these adoptions were fraudulent. Or if not completely fraudulent under, you know, the pretense of, you know, telling these single mothers that their children would be sent to the U.S. for an education and that they would be coming back, things like that. Do you think that's what happened to you? I have no idea. I think that, you know, for the bit, it's like the irony of a scammer being born out of a scam is not lost on me. But, yeah, there's really there's really, I think, no way of me knowing. And do you know what led your your adoptive parents to adopt to go and want to adopt? Yeah, so my mother just was unable to have biological children, and, you know, they made the amazing choice and, you know, with the idea that, you know, you don't have to give birth to be a parent. And so I grew up with a really amazing, I mean, I had an amazing childhood. My family was super loving. I was not abused in any way, shape, or form. That was actually something that it had been reported that I was telling people, which is not the case. I've always been very, very, very, you know, it's always been very important to me to to let people know that I had a great childhood. But all of that is to say, you know, this was throughout the 90s and we just didn't have the resources that we have now. And so, you know, my parents didn't have Reddit or forums to talk to other adoptive parents. And so I was really raised just kind of as a white person. Like, that's how I identified. That's even though I, you know, saw myself in the mirror, the thought processes, you know, the way that I viewed the world in a lot of ways was that of all the people around me. And when did you realize first that you were different? I mean, pretty immediately because I look different. And so my book actually opens with a scene as a child in elementary school where I was being asked, you know, why my face was so flat, like why my parents, my real parents didn't want me. So I was always hyper aware and my parents, you know, had provided me with the response to those kinds of comments. But, you know, with it being so based in religion, a lot of those retorts were like, oh, well, you know, God, I was so special to God that, you know, I was sent here basically to be saved. And, yeah, there are some issues there. But, again, my parents did the best that they could. So a lot of my experience is dualities and realizing that you are very much able to feel multiple ways about the same thing. I can, yeah. Can you tell the story about there's a great part in your book where you talk about when kids were presenting in the classroom and you had to present a character, right? Can you talk about that? Yeah, so it was show and tell. And I think my one of my defense mechanisms in my entire life has been to sort of like make fun of myself before others can. Right. It felt like taking the power away. And so for one, show and tell. I so I'm a U.S. citizen and I was I was adopted and then, you know, it took a couple of months, but received my citizenship. However, when I was first in the U.S., a card had been given to my parents that said, legal resident alien. And so as a kid, you don't think of aliens as, it was always extraterrestrial at all. It was not like people. And so I, at Show & Tell, made up this story about being an actual alien. and then showing the card as proof. So I think that, you know, I've always been a natural storyteller. Whether or not the stories that I'm telling are truthful, that's a difference. And also, like, a big imagination, right? A big imagination. And I think that, you know, I don't want to – my story and my book, I'm not trying to blame anything specifically for the reason that I ended up making a lot of poor decisions and, you know, just kind of putting other people's feelings and my own feelings aside. But I do think that, you know, there's a lot to be said about growing up, be looking the way that I do in a very oppressive, very predominantly white religion. religion. How do you think so? How do you think that led to some of your behavior later on? Well, and I don't think, by the way, you're right. I don't think it's blaming anyone. I think that having an understanding of where that came from and how it developed is very important. And having that self-awareness is great. I think, for example, you know, the doctrine is no longer within their scripture, because that's the thing about the LDS church is they'll just retract things You know, it's like Jesus fanfic. They're like, oh, that doesn't fit the narrative anymore. Let's get rid of that. But one of the scriptures, you know, used to say something like if you had darker skin, you were dark and loathsome because they believe that, you know, everyone was white until people were cursed with darker skin. And this was something that you knew growing up, that that was in the scripture, in the religion that your parents believed in? Yes. That was talked about around the house? And, you know, maybe not so much in the house, but, like, in church and within, like, social gatherings within the church. And I, you know, I was a very tan child, first of all, but knew that they were talking about me and other people like me. And so the church also has three tiers of heaven, and you cannot get to grade A heaven as a woman unless you're married. But at the same time, I'm being told, oh, no one's ever going to want to marry you because you are cursed, essentially. So, you know, I think it was things like that that I definitely couldn't have verbalized my feelings around at the time, but caused me to really just become, you know, an addict for attention and acceptance and approval for a number of reasons and a number of different kinds of approval. I think I got to a point where I didn't necessarily care if I was being remembered for good things, bad things. I just wanted to be remembered. Here's a little fact about me. I'm an optimist. 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That's selectquote.com slash Mariana. as we talk about the most important and obscure stories in business and finance. Follow Slate Money wherever you like to listen. So when did that start? When did your... Yeah. I was going to say lies, but that's what it was. But when did it all start? I mean, I think I was kind of this model, student, model, Mormon girl for a long time. Did you have friends at school? Yeah, I had friends at school. I would say that I was very much like a social butterfly, was able to sort of flip in between these different groups. But it's because I was very good at playing different parts, which, you know, is an asset when it comes to certain things, but not necessarily when you're trying to make like authentic friendships. Right. So I would say like high school is really where it started to even if I weren't lying, it was just kind of like this is the hat that I put on when I'm with these people. This is the other hat that I put on with these these people. And, you know, I mean, everyone does that. But I think maybe I took it more seriously and to more of an extreme. I do remember yeah I was probably around 16 that I started to I mean I think you know the freedom that comes with when you're 16 it's like as my ironically as my personal freedoms were sort of expanding I myself was closing you know in closing myself within these tales I was telling And it started, I think, I don't want to say this is benign, but like a lot of people's lives where it's like your parents were like, how was school? Or, you know. Your parents are what? Your parents ask you, how was school? Oh, right. And you, you know, whatever. Or ditching classes. But then it escalated to, or I should say, it grew to me then shoplifting. And I was doing that with friends of mine. And then it escalated from that over the years to me writing these bad checks to people who cared about me, friends. You know, it wasn't in the beginning. It wasn't random people. It was people who wanted to help. And so I was writing these checks. And it's funny because sometimes I'll go on these like Gen Z podcasts where I have to explain what a check is. I'm like literally it's a piece of paper where you could ascribe any amount to it. Any amount you want to do. Any number. And you want it over to someone and people would, you know. But wait, let's go back just one second to the shoplifting. Did you ever get caught shoplifting? I did get caught shoplifting and I was actually, I talked my way out of it. Did your parents ever find out? They did not. They did not find out. And I think that that's when I realized that the gift of gab is a blessing and a curse. What did you say? And what were you shoplifting? Yeah, I was shoplifting. Oh, I'm so stupid. I mean, aren't all of the things? Yeah. I'll tell you my story, too. I would love to. I was shoplifting, too. And I was 16 as well. Hair gel or hairspray, something hair-related. So dumb. So dumb. I had a I don't I had like a magazine with me that I brought in the store and I like folded the magazine over it. It's like a fat magazine. Yeah. I'm like, why also would I? Who wants to do a store just like a magazine? Yeah. And I was caught as I was walking out and I basically told a story about how, you know, I was having a bad day and I was just frazzled and I wasn't thinking properly. I'm so sorry. I'll pay for it. I didn't mean to just, you know, walk out. And they let me pay for it. Wow. Yeah. Fortunately, I had the, like, $3 or whatever it was. And they didn't call your parents or anything. And they didn't call my parents. Wow. They called my parents. Yeah, so they called my mom. It was at a big, like, grocery store, like a big one in my town where I grew up in Portugal. And for me, it was so stupid. It was chocolate. It was like a fancy chocolate that I really wanted. and at the time yeah it was like something that was happening with my friends like we would go out and shoplift like little things i also did also with my best friend around the same time we went to zara and they had the alarm tags on you and we cut them off and so we were going around with these like this this one jacket i remember this like black sort of blazer kind of jacket that was so cool it was like the coolest thing i'd owned i loved it i wore it all the time but then it had a huge hole on the collar from where I cut it. So I cut, I sold that. I sold like a couple of bikinis. So embarrassing. And then because these were becoming easy, I went to this big store with cameras everywhere and decided I wanted some fancy chocolate and stole it. And then obviously the security guard came and called my mom. And that was the last time I ever, ever stole. I was utterly embarrassed. And my mom gave me a good talk. That was the last time. But I'm glad you learned. to be a lesson because I unfortunately did not. I think calling the mother was like the key for me. Yeah. With the conversation she had with me afterwards. I was like, yeah, I mean, this is so stupid. Yeah. Okay. So go ahead. This is not me talking. It's you. No, I love to. I mean, I think that's the thing is that a lot of my story is very relatable to a lot of people for different reasons. Yeah. But, you know, there are a lot of kids who kind of step over that line. And then realize that they need to step back. And then there are other people who are like, oh, well, that was exciting. That was different. That worked. And so then the other foot follows. And what about, okay, so what about the check? When was the first time you wrote a false check? So I was 17. I want to say 17 or 18. And it was written to a boyfriend of mine. and the the so somebody you were dating at the time and he had checks himself I had checks okay basically what it was is that I had checks I had a bank account obviously it did not have as much money as I was saying that it did so my scam the get was I would say for whatever reason My ATM card is not working, but I can still write checks. So, you know, can I write a check for $150 to you, you know, for helping me out? I'll give you $50, whatever it was. And I knew that one of the ways, again, it's really hard for people to understand, and I get it. Uh, because for me, a lot of it was like, okay, I know that when you ask someone to do a favor for you, you know, they're more likely than to ask you to do a favor for them. And that is how relationships and friendships can be built. obviously that's true but I just didn't have the right context there were times where I would be writing these checks because I wrote a few of them to this guy and then there were a few times where I wrote them to other friends as well and sometimes every time that I wrote one I was like okay by the time this bounces you know which could be anywhere from three days to a week and a half uh depending upon the bank i was like i'm gonna have the money to pay these people back sometimes i did more often than not i did not and so they would come back to you and say hey by the way that check bounced yeah where's my money yeah and because they were people who cared about me and friends it was never at least in the beginning it wasn't accusatory it was just like hey something's going on you need to figure this out and because yeah they didn't not for a second did they think that you were trying to scam them exactly exactly and then you know from there it kind of became what is the phrase stealing from peter to pay paul yeah so it became the thing and eventually just snowballed out of control and i i want to be very clear that i'm the one who was rolling that snowball. This was not, you know, I take full accountability in what I did. Did you lose friends at the time because of this? Yeah. I mean, a big reason that I left Utah to go to New York is because I basically ran myself out of that town. It's a very small city, even still, but especially back in, you know, the 2000s. and then even smaller if you're in a part, you know, different subcultures. So I was very into, you know, the indie music scene, the art scene. And so, yeah, at a certain point, very quickly, it got out and circulated that I was doing this to friends, to people, yeah, who knew me. Did you have a job at the time, or were you in school, I guess, obviously? I had a job. I actually had a, I mean, for being the age that I was, a pretty good job. I was a veterinary technician. And you were also in high school? You were around 17? Yeah, so I was, there was a program in my high school. This was after high school, but there was a program in my high school where you were able to, your junior and senior years, essentially leave with an associate's degree in veterinary sciences, which is an amazing thing that they were offering. And so I had internships and then ended up getting hired at one of those vet clinics. Did you want to be a vet at the time? I did. That's what I thought. And then once I started doing it, I was like, oh, the business side of things were where my interests are. Or I guess my talents. I loved working with animals, but it also, you know, the emotional toll of that is not easy. And then seeing how it is a business is very difficult sometimes. but I do remember there was an incident where the police came to my work. Like, I'm in scrubs. I'm at the vet clinic, and they asked me if I could speak with them in the parking lot. They basically were like, you have warrants for your arrest. We could arrest you right now. And I was like, I'm at work, literally about to, and I don't remember if this was true, but, like, about to go into surgery, you know, because I was an assistant. I was a veterinary assistant. I misspoke earlier, not a technician, a vet assistant. And I, yeah, I said that and they let me go back in, but they were like, you have to take care of these warrants. So you had, at this point, you had all these warrants for you. For all for bad checks. For bad checks, yeah. And what is, I guess, I mean, it's interesting and it's a testament, I think, to the people, my victims, because, again, you know, they cared about me. even after they found out they were upset. Some of them didn't rightfully didn't want to talk to me anymore, but there were others who were like, how do we help you? Like you're clearly going through something. And yeah, I, you know, there are, I'm so fortunate because there are people who I still speak with now who really never, you know, stopped caring, which is just, I mean, And, yeah, that's – it's – Yeah, it's a real friendship if you went through all of that and you did what you did to them and still being there for you. That's awesome. Yeah, absolutely. And what do you – it's interesting to me sort of the – what is it about you? Because even when I get a bill that has been unpaid and, you know, it, like, stays with me, I, like, get very anxious about the idea that, you know, that I owe some money to somebody. Like, what is it about, you know, I mean, you're hoping you might be able to pay those people back, but surely you knew that there was a high chance and you actually stopped being able to pay these people back. So at this point, did you feel any stress? Was it stressful for you or what was going through your mind or how you how were you rationalizing this? That's a great question. And I will do my best to try to answer it because that's still that's something that still continues to confuse me. you know a lot of the money that I was getting from writing these bad checks was going toward taking my friends out for dinner you know paying for things left and right and again people you know people would ask me okay so you had a job and did you know did you have an addiction you know what drugs were you on right you know did you were you gambling what is going on why did you need all of this money and it really was because in my mind I had it twisted and I was just like okay I'm going to be the person that everyone wants to hang out with because I'm treating people to these things and I you know realize now I just wanted to assimilate I didn't want to be me yeah you didn't think you was enough yeah I think that's really it and I mean that's That's part of it. I struggle with, you know, I just, the media obviously has twisted things. And I struggle with how and what I can accept. I don't like thinking that I, I guess I was like made this way. I think one of the things that I truly believe is that people love to think, oh, everyone's born good and then they turn bad. And for me, I really try not to see good people, bad people. I think of it as people who make good decisions or bad decisions. And there are certain people, whether that's circumstantial or, you know, brain chemistry, who need to be taught how to make good decisions. And that can be very difficult. And I think that we as a society do ourselves a disservice by, yeah, believing that everyone has equal opportunities to make good decisions. that's jumping a little bit ahead because that's something that I discovered, you know, while I was incarcerated, just in speaking to all of these incredible women that I met, who, again, you know, some of them, sure, were not taking accountability. Some of them were not, you know, committed to making better choices. But by and large, the majority of women And they're either shouldn't have, I mean, I believe that no one should be, you know, incarcerated at all. But definitely, you know, they were defending themselves. They were getting themselves out of a bad situation. It was literally survival. And, you know, we're setting them up to fail. I mean, that's my whole work. I mean, so much of it is that it's sort of exploring the gray area and trying to understand why people do what they do, trying to place ourselves in their shoes. And seeing that for a lot of them, particularly in my work in black markets, it is a lack of opportunities and it's the environment they grew up in and the conditions that they were given that leads them into these worlds, you know, into life of crime. And I mean, it doesn't excuse them, but I think understanding and seeing the humanity in everybody is crucial to sort of seeing the whole picture, right? Yeah, and that's, I mean, one of the many reasons that I appreciate your work, because it's really, it's so easy to think of people, especially, you know, former criminals. Yeah, people who did time in prison, yeah. Statistically, everyone knows someone who has or is incarcerated. We in the U.S. have anywhere from 1.8 to 2 million people incarcerated at any given time. You know, for women, it's and of course, all of these stats, it's like, well, then you look at, you know, how many of those people are people of color? How many of those people, you know, were never given the opportunity or the tools, resources that they need to succeed? And so, yeah, that's really what I've dedicated my work toward now is just ensuring that people do have the opportunities that I did. because I am not like a lot of formerly incarcerated people. Big part of that, though, is that I had, you know, support network. I had, as we were just talking about, friends who stuck by me despite it all. I had, you know, access to a therapist. So just really trying to make sure everyone has those same opportunities. it would be great if we could nip that in the bud and, you know, have that be a thing that is just part of society. Like just, you know, when you're born, when you're here. But at the very least, making sure people who are let out, who are released, can do everything they can to not go back in to that system. It is interesting that you say, do you think that if you didn't feel like you were different growing up and you didn't have other people making you feel like you were different, do you think that you would have still started conning people or having this wish to be somebody else and have the stuff that you didn't actually have? I don't think so. It's hard to say because, you know, it's the what ifs. It like throwing yourself to the wolves sometimes but I really I was always playing a part you know I was always playing the you know again like just how I identified um people think it hyperbolic I think when I like I was the only Asian person in my school but then I'll pull out a yearbook or a class picture and they'll be like oh you weren't kidding you were actually the only yeah there was another Asian girl who moved to my school who was also adopted later on. But, yeah, there were good periods of time where I was the only Asian person in my class. And kids were mean, like in every school, not just your school. I mean, generally, kids are just, I mean, I remember a lot of incidents of people just being mean. Totally. I think that kids are mean, but they're also, they have no filters, and they're curious. I think a lot of questions I was asked were not necessarily malicious, though there were times where they certainly were. But often, you know, I think it was just kids being like, this is weird, you're weird, what's up? Like, you don't look like us. Right. Yeah, they're not intentionally being mean. Right. What comes out of their mouth sometimes hurts without them even knowing. Yeah, society was just so different. I mean, I write about this, but there was a, you know, like a playground rhyme slash game, whatever, where it was like, you know, a lot of people, after they read my book, wrote to me about this. They're like, oh, my God, that brought back such memories. And I was a kid who was, like, saying these things. Or I was a kid on the receiving end. But it was like, you know, you would take your eyes in Chinese, Japanese, you know, da-da-da-da-da. and I remember being so annoyed because I was like I'm Korean why is it like if you're gonna like say things talk shit on me like at least get it right uh but yeah it was just a we didn't have the visibility you know I think the only person the only Asian woman that almost anyone could name at that time was Lucy Liu who's incredible but it's like you know I think that I was a pretty by all accounts like cute kid but no one really knew that that was the case because no one ever really saw people like me and so they just right yeah yeah I was just so different and so to answer your question I was always playing a part uh whether I wanted to be or not I was just doing everything I could always to fit in. But I also throughout all of it was very much who I am, which is, you know, a person who I love making people laugh. I love being creative. And in the Mormon religion, as a woman, you're really told that your purpose is to procreate and not, you know be a homemaker and I rejected that very early on which you know was not that was another thing that wasn't super easy to navigate uh I think that if I would have been encouraged to tap into my creativity in different ways right I think that's really what would have prevented me from running amok because again it was part of this natural storytelling ability uh one of the most amazing things that has come from having this book out is that I have heard from people who knew me back then uh victims of mine and there was this woman who wrote me and she was like this is what you should have been doing with your abilities you know from day one uh you know i'm so happy that you got there eventually and that was so meaningful to me for so many reasons it would have been even if i hadn't known this person but the fact that they were someone that i told stories to uh you know not ended our friendship but to then find me after this came out you know So to say that was just really powerful. Yeah, and very kind of that person to reach out to you to say that. So beyond kind, and it was so unexpected. But I think, you know, so much of my work is to show that second chances are deserved and that we all evolve and the change is possible. it's interesting because you know liberals white liberals people love to say oh we believe you know we root for the underdog we want everyone to succeed you know do the crime pay the time but then you're good and it's like no no no no like you might say that but structurally systemic yeah that's not how the system is set up and I want to get there about what sort of what your life was like like when you left prison because that was super hard as well right yeah we'll get there so when just going back to the checks before you left Salt Lake City when people would come up to you and say hey dude what's up it was yeah and they would ask you for money did you come up with excuses or did you at some point say yeah I lied to you did you it was always about buying more time uh I was there were there were a couple of times where I fessed up but it was really when my back was against the wall. It was like I was a caged animal. You know, I, I, it was really only under that pressure of being caught. And even then, you know, I would try to talk my way out of things until I realized that there was literally no way that I could. And that reminds me, there's a story where you were dating your boy, your boyfriend, you passed a bunch of bad checks to him. And then at one point, he goes with you to the bank, right? Can you tell that story? Yeah. So, I mean, I went to the bank and I was able to convince the person who was helping us try to figure things out. Because, again, obviously, I knew what the problem was. The problem was that I didn't have money in my account. Right. But walked into the bank. With him. With him. To say, hey, I've been, you know, on the phone for hours with customer service. They're realizing that there's an issue. You know, I spun this crazy yard. And ultimately, I convinced the person, the bank representative that we were sitting down at their desk with, that there was something wrong on their end. Oh, wow. And that bought me time. And they didn't say, like, oh, we see that you're not at fault or whatever, but they said, yeah, I'll investigate this further. Clearly, there's something that's going on. Miscommunications. our system might be down whatever it is uh and I remember just being like whoa I can't believe that I like pulled this off and another thing that some people might find difficult to believe is that I was not plotting or planning these things it was all so reactionary it was like you know I wasn't like okay I'm gonna go to the bank and I'm gonna say these things and this is how it's all gonna to go down you know da da da da it was like my boyfriend was probably like what the fuck is going on and i was like you know what great idea let's go to the bank like who would write bad checks and then think that it's a good idea to go to the property of the right so people are like oh mastermind i'm like no i was dumb as shit like yeah it's interesting to say that's probably the only one of the only I mean I sat in the studio for an interview with Anna Delvey and she said very little as opposed to you um but she one of the things that sort of came across in that interview was that idea that in her it wasn't like a big plan it like things just escalated and then it was hard to sort of extricate themselves for from that position that situation it wasn't like there was a big master plan to get money from this person and this person and create this life It was just, you start small, it escalates, and then you find yourself in the middle of all of this gigantic avalanche, essentially. Totally. And, I mean, that might be one of the only ways that Anna and I are similar. Yeah. I was going to say that. I mean, get your back, girl, you know. I truly, like, you know, I just, it's two sides of the same coin. Right. Right. But yeah. So going back to that that moment. So, OK, so it's another example for you of how even when you're doing bad things, you can get away with it and nobody is going to find out and you just can keep doing it kind of idea. That was the feeling until it wasn't right, because ultimately. Everyone started to find out. It started to circulate. People were confronting me while I was out and about. So, I mean, and again, I don't think that it was necessarily the right decision or okay of them to do that, but I totally get it. You know, these are people. But, yeah, again, like, I am very clear about how these were people who were friends. This was not, you know, random people. Not that that would be any better or worse. Right, right. But it's, yeah, particularly bad if you're doing it to people who supposedly, you know, love you and have your best interest in mind. So they were coming up to you and they were saying all this stuff. And then I'm sure they all started talking about you. And people stopped hanging out with you or wanting to be friends with you. How did that feel for you at the time? Were you sad? Did you feel, like, sorry for yourself? Did you feel sorry for them? I think that I obviously felt very lonely. Did your parents know about any of this, by the way? So my parents separated when I was 15. And so when I was 16, I was living with my dad, single parent. He was starting to date again. It was kind of a sort of a no rules type situation that oftentimes happens in these situations. And your mom moved to Arizona. Yeah, my mom moved back to Arizona. And why did you decide to stay with your dad and not go with your mom? Mostly because of school, just like that's where, you know, I mean, and life in general. And I wasn't necessarily, I wasn't writing bad checks at that time. It was when I moved out of the house, you know, a year and a half later that it really started to escalate. And, yeah, I just, I literally ran myself out of town. And then the heat was on. Like, the police were, you know, knocking on my door and they were trying. obviously, as mentioned, came to my work. And what's really, I don't know if interesting is the right word, but all of the charges that I had brought against me, most of the charges that I had brought against me were from the banks. There were a couple of civil cases, you know, from people who I wrote bad checks to, but by and large, most of those folks let it go, let it slide. And I think, again, just showing that they cared about me as a person and weren't trying to, even though I disrespected them so severely, they weren't trying to ruin my life, you know. But the flip side of having the banks come after you is that that's when law enforcement it really starts to pay attention um and so and that's when you felt you had to leave yeah but did your dad know this was going on no my dad and I at the time had a pretty estranged relationship uh honestly more so just because of life you know like again he is dating he's dating he you know I'm doing my own thing. He thinks that I'm just living life as a young adult. And yeah, so it very much came as a shock to my parents when they discovered all of this. And you were in New York at the time. Yeah. It wasn't until later. So, okay, so you decided to move to New York. I imagine the boyfriend who took you to the bank eventually found out the truth. You guys broke up and you were sort of feeling lonely and you decided you were going to move to New York. Why New York? I had some friends who lived there and they were like, this is the place for you. And, you know, at the time, social media didn't exist. So I really was able to leave to New York without the Utah part of it following me. At least I thought. What year was this, by the way? This was 2008. Okay. Yeah. So we were just starting to get Twitter. You know, Facebook and MySpace existed, but it was on a different level. It wasn't on a lower level. It wasn't, you know, people weren't as addicted to it at the time. So I left. And again, this is just the, you know, further proof that I was not thinking at all. I was like, okay, I'm just going to leave Utah. I'll never come back, you know, or whatever. That'll be fine. I did not think about how I had warrants for my arrest and the leaving the state is very illegal. I did not think I was just like survival. You know, how do I make it out? How do I because it was exactly what people would think as far as, oh, I'm going to go over there and start a new life. right like I am not I'm going to get a legit job I'll be in the city that I just know that I need to be in all of the things uh I'll get my acts to get together basically is what you were thinking yeah I'll get my you know I'll I'll do things the way you know if I'm going to be struggling let's do it in a place where it'll be fun and everybody else is struggling right uh and i remember the day that i moved and i moved there without ever having visited and i just remember being like walloped by the access to different cultures different food different people and it was amazing but it was super intense for me going from basically monoculture right one one very specific culture to like everything and part of what started to happen is that I was experiencing I don't even want to say racism but like I mean some of it certainly was but I was experiencing being me looking the way that I look in a totally different way some ways that was super positive and I was like I feel seen you know and then in other ways it was like oh yeah people are still saying mean things to me uh this time it's from it's more loaded though because it's a whole group of people that they're talking about that I now I'm starting to identify with more uh such as such as just like things that were very specific to like go back to your own country you know that kind of thing I wasn't getting a lot of that in Utah because I you know it just I think people yeah like smaller yeah it just wasn't no one even thought of the country that I was from you know they were just like they're different but then when I got to New York it was like some of these things were way more specific to my actual heritage and that kind of threw me for a loop and all of this is you know in retrospect I don't think I would have been able to verbalize any of this at the time, but it was just a whiplash, and it was exciting, and I loved the city. I just, you know, immersed myself in the insanity of it. I did try to find a legitimate job, and ultimately, I ended up getting one at Vice. But before then, you... With that being said. Yeah, exactly, because before then, a lot happened, including you kept on saying, you had a job that you didn't, right? Can you tell me about that? Yeah. So how did you make friends and how did you pay for your life here? Yeah. When you first got here? So I, those are great questions because they were questions that I had that I didn't have the answers to that I needed to discover the answers very quickly. And so, you know, not being able to get a job as quickly as I thought I would I was were you trying were you yeah you were yeah I was but of course you know it was with resumes that were how I am listen I think that we all know that everyone fake it we make it you know but uh yeah mine were there were it was considerably so what you had just like all these jobs that you never had yeah it was like or things that I had done but for different companies because I always part of one of the reason like part of the reason that I wanted to go to New York is that I love music and I loved music and I, you know, Williamsburg specifically in Brooklyn, uh, was well known for being sort of, I mean, yeah, the like hipster capital indie rock scene, uh, you know, and I just always, yeah, I always wanted to be a part of that scene. I just thought that was like the coolest thing. I thought that was the way that I would be the coolest. And so I was lying about working for, you know, some of these major festivals, production companies, that kind of thing. And I, you know, was like, okay, well, I have to do something to make money. I have to pay rent. I have to eat all of that. You know, I have to survive. And so I was like, okay, what am I going to do here? I don't want to be writing bad checks again. I, you know, what can I do? And so I started to steal money from people, specifically white trust fund kids who I would meet out at bars and at shows and, you know. How did you know they were trust funds? So that's, therein lies the issue, right? Is that there were things I would, you know, observe that would kind of lead me to that, I guess, conclusion. But there's no way that all of them were, you know. Like, I think that it was like, oh, they're wearing nice shoes. They have a nice watch. You know, sometimes it was, again, not plotting. It wasn't like, I'm going to go out tonight and find someone to do this to. It would be like, I'm out. That person just went to the ATM. They didn't take their receipt. I'm going to go look at it, see what their bank balance is. Oh, wow. Okay. It's pretty significant. Or even if it weren't that significant, it's pretty significant to me as like a 20-year-old, a poor 20-year-old in New York City. Like, I'm going to try to go home with that guy. And that, in your mind, you were rationalizing it as, yeah, this person has a lot more than I do. Yeah. I deserve some of this as well. was going through I don't even know if it was I deserve I think it was more of just like I want it yeah yeah because I don't think that I there was not a lot of entitlement in this uh for me it wasn't a like I'm again I think in retrospect I look at the people you know and it's like okay these were all the kind of guys that I was told my entire life to you know try to marry uh they're the good ones or whatever it is um so yeah i would go home with these guys again throughout all of this i meet i'm not using a fake name i'm not using i'm still my personality which means that i am still like boisterous and ridiculous and so part of the funny yeah that this became such a big story ultimately is because I couldn't just you know walk up to someone at the bar and flirt like a normal person I had to write these like ridiculous notes that I was like sliding to people trying you know trying to make them laugh that just had like ridiculous lines give us give me some I know some of them they're really funny so I think the the most popular one the highest rate of success I try not to use them more than once I remember because I was like no I have to be original that was always it right I was like I need to be the only me like I need to be memorable I need to be original so one of the lines was I want to give you a hand job with my mouth and then you signed it And then I would sign it. Yeah. So I was obsessed. And I still, to this day, I love basketball. Utah is a very basketball. It's a basketball town because we only had one professional sports team and the Utah Jazz. So I would sign it. I guess I was saying that I wasn't using my, I wasn't using a fake name when I met. No, no, I understood. But I was signing things. Korean Abdul-Jabbar. After one of my favorite players and people in life. She's an amazing humanitarian, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And so people would read these. These guys would read these messages. You'd be, like, at the end of the bar, like, winking, hey, it was me. I know, yeah. I mean, it was sort of like a litmus test, too. If this is a guy, like a smart guy that can get this joke. Yeah. And, like, that was the other thing is that it was like, well, again, if I had been, if I had thought about this situation, it was like, why? it always had to be people that I still felt connected to, which is worse, I think, from like a manipulative perspective, right? Like I was specifically wanting the attention from the people that I wanted attention from. Right. And that you liked or that you found some sort of connection. Exactly. Which in the end was bad because the ultimate result was bad for them. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, people have asked me, well, you know, why didn't you just go like the sugar baby route or like the sex worker route, you know, and that had never even crossed my mind. Like that was not a thing, you know, I just had never, it felt like this was the only way. But when you did go home with these guys at the start, did you think, I'm going to build a relationship with this person, fall in love with them, they might fall in love with me, I might actually marry this person, or was it always, I know there wasn't like a master plan, but did you always think, I'm probably going to steal from this guy by the end of this night. I don't think that I ever thought that far ahead. I think I was literally like it was an in the moment kind of thing. There were times where, for example, I met this guy at a show, at a concert. We were both alone and then, you know, making out during the show, whatever. And we were I was like, yeah, I'm going to I'm going to take this person back to my home because they lived in New Jersey. and so we're on the train and I remember him saying something because I was like well where were you going to what was your plan like were you going to go back home and then I realized I was like oh this person was planning on meeting someone so that they had somewhere to stay tonight and I was like oh I don't like that which I mean pot calling the kettle black right like but I was like oh this person had their own you know sort of I guess like scam I don't know how I thought of it that way at the time but uh and that was a moment where I was like okay maybe I am gonna take advantage of this person but and did you yeah I did what did you do I I uh I think I took what did I take of theirs maybe their metro card that was the other thing is by the time I was doing this in New York I wasn't writing bad checks here uh I I was literally it was like pocketing an ipod it was you know taking a 20 bill from them it was like very again doesn't negate it but like petty uh petty theft and how did it happen so you would go home with these guys you'd sleep with them sometimes sometimes not uh-huh uh and then at what point of the night are you taking stuff from their wallets or yeah i mean it really depended right because again it was so circumstantial but it was like okay sometimes they'd be sleeping and i'd be like i'm gonna sneak out of here you know and then like oh there's a 20 bill by you know in the bowl that's next to their front door you think uh other times it was like this was not going well i don't like this person like okay i'm gonna go into their bathroom and like take i don't know like a cologne or whatever it was almost like a it didn't sometimes it didn't matter what it was it was more of like the jab of it uh there were times for sure where i realized that they weren't as affluent or you know their situation wasn't what i thought and i would you know i guess in my mind it was like i'm gonna be gracious to them and not take anything uh but yeah it was just it was there honestly wasn't a lot of thought put in truth and like you said i mean the majority of it It was like small amounts and small goods. What was the biggest amount or the biggest thing you ever took from somebody at that point? I don't know what the biggest thing was, but the most meaningful for sure that I felt very bad about was, so I mentioned an iPod. I took this person's iPod. I remember it being like, ooh, it's a brand new one. Great. And when I got home, I was looking at it. And on the back, there was, it was engraved, and it was from a family member congratulating them for being the first in their family to graduate from college. And I was just like, oh, like that one, you know, so there definitely, it's not like there wasn't remorse at the time, because there was. not enough obviously and not with everyone or for everyone uh but definitely times where i was just like you know and right the i mean the biggest thing and you mentioned this in the intro and this was something that was partially true is that i did lie to a handful of people about having grave, serious illnesses. Including cancer. Yeah. I don't recall saying I was a survivor. I do recall saying that it was a current thing that I had. That you had cancer. It was cancer of the lungs? Yeah, it was lungs and, you know, it was like, even that, oddly, had to be this thing where I was like, yeah, That's really crazy, rare, whatever, because I don't smoke. I don't smoke, you know, and pulling up a statistic of like, yeah, a very small percentage of people get it, even though they don't smoke. I can't believe I'm one of those people. So would you research online on how to tell these lies? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like super in-depth, but it was like, yeah, if people asked, okay, so what stage? You know, I had a response for that. But I, yeah. And do you remember the first time you said that? And now that time has passed, why do you think you were saying this? I mean, I guess for the same idea. It's this idea of wanting to be liked and attention, fade and all that. But yeah. Okay. So let's go to the first time you ever said. Do you remember that? Yeah. It started actually. So when I was feeling things for people, it was always men, which is part of the reason that, you know, some saw and still see me as like a almost celebrated feminist like anti-hero you know uh and maybe there was some of that in my mind at the time but like I I try not to think of things necessary not in those ways but um the first time that I lied about having cancer was actually because there was a woman that I met that I fell in love with. And we were just friends. I, to this day, have no idea if she was at all queer. But she started dating this guy, and I got really jealous. And they were moving super, super quickly. And I remember that there was a time where... Can I just ask you a question, if you don't mind? Was it the first time you had feelings for a woman, or has that existed? No. Because I actually remember something you said in your book that I thought was great, and I wanted to share it here, which was that you faked being white. You faked being a good Mormon girl. You faked being straight. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always knew, right, like even as a young child, younger child, like when I started to have crushes, it wasn't necessarily only the boys. that being said there was a huge period of my life where I did not acknowledge it because you know the church's teachings are right that is you know I mean yeah I was basically just by being me I was sitting a lot and so I think that was also a part of it where it was like okay well if I'm already a sinner you know why don't I do things that are actually advantageous to me for me. So not the first person, not the first woman that I loved. Had you had a relationship with women before? Yeah, I have. Actually, during the time that I was writing the bad text, there was a woman that I was, I got casually dating. In Salt Lake City. Yeah, I wouldn't say in a relationship with necessarily, but this was the first person though that I was like, oh, they get me. Like, they were inter, or biracial. And so we really bonded over the kind of like, well, which side are we supposed to be on? You know, because there's a lot of times where people would try to make you choose. Well, are you Asian or are you white? Right. And it was very different, a different experience for both of us, but a shared one. And yeah, I just remember feeling very like it was just a very nurturing environment and so anyway she started dating this guy it moved very quickly so this in new york so then fast forward to new york and there's this person you like and she starts dating a guy yeah and she was uh his parents were going to be in town and i remember being like i cannot look she can't meet his parents like that's i don't know for some reason in my mind that just felt like I have no, there will be no chance for me if she meets, because she was so in love with this guy, you know. And so I lied I don think that at the time I was saying that I had cancer but I lied about being very sick And I actually went to the hospital and lied to them about my symptoms and everything And so I did actually, I convinced this hospital, these doctors, these medical professionals, I mean, this is no shade against medical professionals. I convinced them that there was something very wrong with me and they kept me there. for a few days running all these tests. Wow. You stayed overnight at the hospital? I stayed overnight multiple nights. What were you saying was wrong? Like we were saying, what were the symptoms that you were saying you had? I mean, all kinds of things. I was like, you know, it's a little hard for me to breathe. I have pain, you know, in this certain area. All kinds of things. I didn't know. It's so crazy. The scans, they would get the scans, like everything looks fine. Everything looks fine. And I'd be like, okay, but, you know. I feel it. I feel it. And was your friend with you at the time? So my friend came to visit. And, of course, I had planned it. So she missed the dinner with the parents? Yeah, and I don't remember if it was a dinner, but yeah, she missed the dinner. Or something, meeting the parents. Meeting the family. Wow. And so that was the beginning. That was the first time. And then I think it was a couple of other times. It wasn't, that was not honestly one of my, like, consistent lines. But you did say it. I did say it. That's the thing, though, that I feel, you know, a lot of, a lot of just, you know, stories and articles, about me, about all of this, is so focused on the money, which, by the way, has been misreported to a pretty varying degree. How much money do you think is still? In goods and money? In goods and money, $10,000 to $15,000, let's say. That's also, though, from banks and from loan shark, cash-in places, which, I mean, whatever, my agents love when I say this. I'll go on record saying I don't feel bad about that at all. I feel bad about taking advantage of people. The thing, so that's a different story. But, you know, I, it wasn't a consistent line, the cancer. What I find interesting, though. But is that the part that you're saying that you feel the worst about? Yeah. More than the money, it's the lying about the cancer. And it's also just like, you know, the money, that's not good. But at the same time, it's just money. and it was smaller amounts of money, I was always like, well, did I destroy these people's ability to have trusting, loving relationships? Like, are these people going to be forever, you know, damaged and unable to trust people because of me? And I'm very fortunate because, again, I've been able to reconnect with a lot of people. and, you know, they're just like, that was a crazy time. They were like, that was a crazy time and you provided me with a really good story. And when you reconnect with them, is it you reaching out and apologizing and saying, I'm so sorry this happened and this is what's bothering me, this idea that I might have taken trust away from you and, you know, left you with a lifelong scar. Is that what you do? were honestly I there are a couple of people that I've reached out to but for the most part I let people reach out to me because first of all I'm pretty easily accessible um but more so you know I I think that some people just want to move forward and move on and something I thought a lot about when writing this book knowing that it was going to come out knowing that people were going to say oh she's just capitalizing like further capitalizing on these crimes um but recognizing that like this might trigger people right to see that i'm doing this uh so i've said publicly multiple times you know if you're someone who i have wronged please let me know because i do want to write it uh and we can discuss what that looks like uh and there have been a couple of people where they're like, you don't remember me. You might not remember me. And I'm like, no, I definitely do not remember you. And I'm like, is this person actually? Real or not? Are they not? Either way, like, I'm going to obviously treat them like they are. Try to get some information to corroborate their story. Why would you think people just would want to lie about that? Is it because they want to be part of the story that's now well known? Yeah, I mean, that was happening even back then, right? It was like, people, I remember or in comment sections of articles would be like, oh, I met her at da-da-da. Or like, I met her at this place and took her on a date. We went here. And I was like, that never happened. Wow. That is crazy. I've been trying to scam yourself into a scam story. It's like, seriously. And people are pretended to be me. You know, it kind of, I don't want to say, you know, everything's a scam. That I will say. Like in certain ways, everything is a scam, particularly when you look at our government and the administration and health care and all kinds of things. Yeah, I mean, health care, 100%. Absolutely. So, okay, so this was happening. So then you started with the lies about having cancer. And then how did it progress from there? Or how did it hit a wall? I got a job at Vice and I remember I had like cold emailed them because I knew that I wanted to work for a company when I was saying that I couldn't find a job you know I definitely could have found a job it's just that I wanted not the cool job right not the right yeah I didn't want to work at and again I truly believe there is only skilled labor right like every job there's skill involved but I was like well I'm not gonna work at McDonald's like I'm I need to if I'm I have to have the job the job and so I cold emailed Vice and I was like hey I don't see any positions available but here's my resume and I you know said some funny shit and you know this is why you should bring me in for an interview and I got an email back being like okay can you come in We're actually, you know, interviewing for an executive assistant position for the editor-in-chief at the moment. Come on by. Wow. So was it Shane or who was it? No, it was Eric LeVoy. And so you were his executive assistant. Yeah, that's for not very long, though. No, not very long. Two weeks. Right. Because ultimately what happened is that I was on the Crosstown bus going to visit a friend. And I was scrolling on my, like, original iPhone. And I was scrolling through this website that's called Gothamist. And I remember scrolling, scrolling, and then coming across my mugshot from Utah. Because I've never been arrested in New York. but you were on the most wanted list from Utah right? yes so I did not know this though you had no idea and this again I think is a tribute testament to my stupidity is that again I'm leaving Utah just being like I'm going to start a new while in reality I am and this is the way this is absconding from justice right you know me being like 18 like 19 you know like whatever like Utah has bigger fish to fry like I'm just gonna you know I had to have known that I was running from things like I just thought they're not gonna it's not gonna catch me I'm moving across the country and I'm gonna be a better person so you're on the bus and then suddenly you see your face and you're like what I see my face and there was no question about it it wasn't like I was like whoa that person looks a lot like me I was deeply familiar with my own mugshot So I immediately was just like, oh, this is not good. And then I looked at the story, and it was basically what had happened is that Vice posted, and they were like, hey, here's a hot tip. Before you hire someone, maybe Google them to see if they're on a most wanted list or not. Because this executive assistant that we hired or this person that we hired was. And then they posted the wanted poster. And they didn't actually contact you before doing this? No. That was how. And then, of course, I didn't go in, and I never, like, communicated with them again. They shut all my stuff down. And I jokingly say, but maybe they still owe me money. I don't think I ever got my last name yet. But, again, I wasn't there for long. I thought there was a story also with somebody there that you started sort of flirting with, and then that person, that's how they found out, right? Okay, so that's true. So, I mean, I don't remember the details. I'm sure that I was, like, flirtatious in the way that I am in the sense that, like, again, it's also vice. And it's vice in, you know. That time. Yeah. Which is. Time period. So this is. This is pre-Me Too movement. It was very, it was a very masculine culture. Yes. There was a lot of exposure in kind of all ways possible. Right. It was like a, there would, an HR department now would be very unhappy. There would be lawsuits. And there were lawsuits. But, yeah, so, you know, I was like, this is an edgy place. This is like, you know, they're so cool. I think I can be, I was encouraged kind of to be crass, you know. And so a lot of my communication with people through, like, you know, the messengers, because I don't remember what we used. Yeah, but like the internal messaging or whatever that it was. You know, it was like, I don't remember exactly what I was saying, but I'm sure that it was like funny and flirtatious. And then, of course, people will Google you. It wasn't as prevalent now to Google someone, you know, but they did. This person saw that you were on a most wanted list. I guess so. And that there were stories about you out there. Yeah. And so that, and so, okay, so you're in the bus, you saw this, and you're like, shit, this is the moment. Yeah. It was it. Yeah. And I was like, what do I do now? At the time, though, I didn't realize that it was going to blow up the way that it did, right? Because this was like one article, you know, pretty short, based on one blog post that Bison posted that was relatively short. But then the Observer picked it up, the New York Observer, and the journalist. she bestowed the moniker hipster grifter, the hipster grifter upon me. How did that make you feel when you saw that? I, well, like every hipster, I was like, I'm not a hipster. That was like the part that I had more of a problem with. I am a grifter, but I'm definitely not a hipster. Yeah, I'm like, oh, God. No, I think that I, you know, I think I also, I was like, oh, that's good. Not that I wanted to claim it, but I was just like, that's what Charles is doing. That is catchy. And I do remember also that at the time, people didn't know what either of those words meant. You know? And so there were a lot of articles that had to explain what, you know, grifter now looks like so much a part of our vernacular. Anything we don't like, anyone who, like, disagree, that we disagree with is a grifter, right? But at the time. Also, the grifting industry has exploded in the last few years. So, yeah, it has become more part of our vernacular, like you said. And, you know, a lot of, again, I had mentioned, but a lot of what was written about me, absolutely true. But there was a lot of misinformation. So what were the lies? What were the things that weren't true? It was everything from, like, my age, you know, it varied, you know, by four or five years. It was the amount of money. So that was a big one. And, you know, I part of me is like, is it silly to care? And it's like, no, actually, it's a pretty I feel a legitimate concern. The warrants for my arrest, the state of Utah, the warrant for the arrest was $60,000. But a lot of people took that number and attributed it to the amount that I had taken, which is not the way that works. and so you know it was reported that I stole anywhere from 60 to 100,000 dollars and a lot of the stories were written by you know middle-aged white men so a lot of them were focused on the way that I look and I don't want to say it was only journalists you know that demographic. It was a lot of different kinds of people, types of people. But yeah, much of it focused on you know, it was either kind of like, look at this subservient Asian girl who's flipping the script and like becoming the dragon lady. You know, very rooted in racism. Very, very much my sexuality was highlighted, you know. And again, Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that because even I highlighted it. I brought it up. Yeah, I brought it up because it was so much of when I was doing the research that was part of it. I mean, a lot of it was like how flirtatious you were, how many guys you had sex with to then steal their money, how you're, you know, being attracted to women and how that played into the story. Yeah, that's in all the stories that I read. I mean, I remember, I will put them on blast every day. the Philadelphia Inquirer they I am so glad that the Wayback Machine exists because I have a screenshot of this because it's like no one would believe I mean maybe they would the news is I mean everything's a scary but back then people were less critical and suspicious of the news people took what journalists had to say and what was reported either by journalists or not as truth and so I remember the Philadelphia Inquirer which is a legitimate newspaper um had like a post edit and it was like and before you ask here's a link to her like NFFW photos and they literally linked to like thought shots like to nude pictures that I that have been released by an ex-boyfriend they were like leaked they weren't even things I had put on the internet and I just remember being like, this is, like, I don't even know what I was going to say. Like a reputable newspaper, like you were expecting this from some salacious magazine, but not from this. Yeah, and again, I don't think it was until much later that I really realized how fucked up that is. That is fucked up. I was doing the cut, New York Magazine was doing a feature on me, and I had brought this up, and the journalist Bindu Bansanap had contacted the journalist who wrote it and he was to his credit i guess was so ashamed oh he was and was like do you want me to get it taken down at the time i actually don't know if this article is still out there but you know asked if we wanted him to do i was like no we you know you are like this is years and years later right but also like that's wild yeah that's how we were treating women in the public eye at I think that's how you treat people in headlines often, particularly con artists and people who are in the head or even not. Like I was reading the other day with a woman who kissed her guy from work, her co-worker, or actually her boss from in the Coldplay concert. And the way she was treated. And I remember, yeah, I think many times you just see the title or the headline and you don't understand sometimes that there's a person behind it. And that there's a story there and that there's a human being. And I think people are really callous with the way, and myself included, that we are very callous sometimes with the way we talk about people. And so when you finally see that there is a human being, like reaching out to the guy, to the journalist from the Philadelphia Enquirer, maybe he didn't even cross his mind. Yeah, I'm like, fuck, I'm like really this person for all she has to blame for everything that she did wrong. She definitely doesn't deserve to have nude photos of her out there without her consent. nobody does right so that's that's why i think there was a disconnect there between the hipster brifter and the carrie ferrell you know and i do remember being like oh they're not even good ones i was like if that was i put out they would have been way better yeah yeah it's especially like how we treat women right uh specifically like you know this was the time period of of you know Britney Spears being hunted down by the paparazzi. But it was also very telling and interesting because my crimes, let's say I had stolen $60,000, which again, I hadn't, but let's just say it was that number. I'm still being put on a most wanted list with people who have committed very, very, very serious crimes. And then these stories are major national headlines next to articles about Bernie Madoff and what he's doing. So it's like, what about my story can even compare to that? And it's like, well, you know, I mean, to be fair, it's very entertaining. And I think it was interesting for other people who were part of the music, you know, hipster subculture because it was kind of the first time that they had been represented or that it had been represented in a negative way, I guess. And so it became this thing that all of these people also started participating in because the first, you know, week that the article, when the article had come out, I went into hiding because I was like, my face is fucking everywhere now. Like, I don't know that people realize, So this was, again, you know, before a lot of social media existed. And so the news cycle was a lot slower. Stories stayed very prevalent for a lot longer. If something happened like this now, it would be, you know, a day or two and then moving on. But because this was the first real viral scam story, it just stuck for a very long time. So you went into hiding at somebody's house? And I went into hiding at someone's house. like a friend of yours yeah a friend of mine who at this point you had confessed to you told them yes this is real this is happening and they still that friend still was trying to help you so it actually was just a I got lucky because I lived with this friend and he ended up having to go out of town during this time so I lived there by myself so they actually they they never knew at that time that all of this was happening. Yeah, it was just really, it was really interesting. I think that, you know, the state of Utah sort of saw this as a media moment. And they also, I think, saw it as, wow, if we don't nab this woman, we're going to look like imbeciles. Yeah, exactly. Again, like I was telling you earlier, it was sort of astounding to me how much time and effort went into researching my own life and my own memories because I did want to. I mean, this book is as truthful as it can possibly be. And the reason I say it that way is because obviously memory is fallible, right? But I did a lot of research to corroborate things, and I looked at the most wanted posters with all of these, you know, and it's like, okay, here I am. And so, yeah, I ultimately ended up, there were people, there were groups of people, you know, peers of mine who were putting together these search parties to look for me. Oh, yeah. as like a fun activity, right? There were, I think it's hard for people to understand how big at the time this was. Like there were posters of me, like wheat pasted around, not even wanted posters, just like people. Like have you seen this woman kind of thing? No, more of like a movie poster for Crank and like, you know, super post my face on it. And it was like they changed the tagline to be like, you know, she's going around and, yeah, like, she's going around and scamming dumb posters. Like, it was very pro-me, honestly. You know, matchbooks that I had written on, notes were being, like, sold on eBay. Sold and optioned. Yeah. Crazy, crazy, crazy things. Like, you know, again, I guess the claim to fame is sort of that it was the first real final. It's interesting. It's this moment where you're like losing a lot of friends. Right. But at the same time, you're gaining a lot of attention, but also lots of people pretending they have been your friends or wanting to be close to you because now you're this like famous story and famous person that everybody's talking about. Right. Yeah. And like I was already clearly like fucked up in the head. Right. Processing, not processing. And so that just added to it. Right. Because it was like, oh, I'm actually I thought, you know, I want to be accepted. I want attention. now I'm getting it and I don't want it anymore. It's not like this. Right. I was going to ask you how that felt because as somebody who always wanted attention, now you had it. But, yeah, it didn't feel good. It didn't feel good. And it was like, you know, I think that it was realistically what I always wanted was the semblance of control. And so this felt, I mean, this very much wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't you telling the story anymore. Right. and after being in hiding literally like hat sunglasses to like run to the bodega um oh wow yeah literally literally to get food yeah to get my like 25 cent bagel and i like thank the bodega like the owner in the acknowledgements because i like you literally like kept me alive at that time by like didn't know who you were he had no idea but just was like taking pity on me looking like a mess and being like yeah you clearly need some food give me a quarter but uh oh so he gave you the food for almost free almost free because you went there and you said hey i need i don't because i think i just that was the only place that i was going for like a week and i was getting you know a bagel with butter and like oh i think he was like, clearly something's happening here. But, yeah, I ultimately realized that there was no way that I was going to be able to live any sort of life without taking care of this. Like, it was impossible. You know, I don't know if at the time it was very self-serving. You know, I don't necessarily think that I was like, I need to right the wrongs. it was more of like what does my future look like um and so I ended up I had friends who were in a band and they were based out of Philly and they were going on tour and they were going to one of the stops was Salt Lake so I was like okay I'm gonna have a final hurrah like not in the sense of like stealing but like I'm gonna have a good time and I'm gonna go on tour with them And then when we get to Utah, the idea was, you know, that I would turn myself in. But I was going to have a great time between, you know, Philly and Utah. So arranged all of that. And then when I got off of like the dollar, you know, Chinatown bus that took me from New York to Philadelphia, there was a group of police there. In New York? In Philadelphia. How do they know? So there are multiple versions of the story, but they were tipped off by someone in the band that I was coming. Holy shit. And they didn't arrest me immediately. It wasn't a thing where legally they were allowed to do that. But I knew what was going on, so I went and spoke to them and was just like, okay. Did you ever find out who in the band? There was a person who claimed it, actually, like wrote an article. but I don't know. And that was the other thing is that they, I think, thought that they were going to get a lot of love from being the person who, quote, quote, turned me in. But I remember, like, a lot of the comments being like, why would you do that? Like, what is it? Like, really? You're going to, whatever. Either way, that's really what started, you know, this road to redemption. But I want to be very clear that the redemption for me, I don't believe that it came from being incarcerated. I believe that it came from the people I met while I was incarcerated. And there's a big difference. Yeah, not from the system itself, but by the people. Right. I hear that constantly. And, yeah, I have a hard time believing. I mean, I don't think the prison system in America redeems anyone. No. And that's not even their goal, it seems like. No, their goal is to make money. It should be, but that's not. Yeah, their goal is to make money. And they take a lot of it off of every single person. Yeah, there's a crazy statistic that if you, for every dollar you put into the education of people in prison, it's $5 that you save from actually having them incarcerated because recidivism drops dramatically once you actually leave prison more educated. Yeah, the statistics are all there. And it's just, I think, a lack of will and seeing people who are in prison is not deserving, which I think is wrong. And a lot of people don't realize that. So, you know, they these privately owned prisons, which is like they're a scourge. Is that where you were detained? I was in one of those. So not only are they making money from the government for each person, but it's what they call a pay to stay state. And so the inmates are literally charged for every day that they're incarcerated, and that is part of their restitution. So you're putting people in a position who are typically, you know, financially insecure already, and then letting them out with nothing. It's very difficult to get a job as a, you know, person with a record. So wait, see, if you're paying for being in prison, essentially, do you owe them money once you leave the prison? How much did you owe? I honestly cannot remember. It's funny because on the way here, I was looking up stats to see if I could remember how much it was per day. For Utah, right now, it's anywhere from $35 to $45 a day. I can't remember what it was for me at the time, but it was significant. I mean, and I was there for almost, you know, a year. So that's, you know, we're really setting people up to know. So was there a trial that happened? Tell me about that. Philadelphia. I was there for about a month. And I remember the law is like, because I didn't do anything in Philadelphia. They were holding me for Utah. And Utah had, I think it was 30 or 31 days to come and get me. And I remember it was like day 28 or something. and I was like, oh, maybe they're not going to come. Maybe they're not coming. Sure enough, they did. And so I was literally handcuffed on a plane, like Con Air, except for it wasn't just a plane of cons. It was a, it was like a domestic American flight. Or Delta, I don't remember what it was. Were you chained? Yeah. You were, you had handcuffs? So they gave me this massive windbreaker. It was like from the 90s. It was, like, all these, like, bright colors. I was, like, great. Totally, like, not going to attract attention with this. But they had cut holes. But toots the hip shirt. You know what? I haven't ever thought about it that way, but absolutely. That was definitely, like, from the same salvation army that I used to drop out. But they had cut a hole in the pocket so that I could be handcuffed but not, you know. I mean, if you knew what was up, clearly they're, like, too. they're playing clothes but like right big guys people like it was actually a woman and a man uh but yeah flanking me like walking yeah right obviously but yeah i sat in the very very back of the plane obviously you know like the flight attendants knew what was going on um and yeah i was i was shipped back to extradited uh back to utah and something about it you know i would love to know how much money the state of Utah spent on not just getting me back, but on everything. Because I guarantee, and, you know, yeah, I guarantee it was a lot more than anything I ever took, for sure. But again, you know, I had a lawyer tell me, yeah, the judge wants to throw the book at you because they want to make an example out of you. So, yeah, I think in many ways they see even if we're paying more money than she actually stole, in many ways, it's also prevention. Right. And it's enacting the laws. They see it. We have to get she did. She broke the laws. She has to. She broke the law. She has to be. Yeah. But they put a lot of time and effort and money into it that, you know, they don't for everyone. You don't think that would have happened if you hadn't become suddenly national news? No. Right. Absolutely. regardless of who I am, what I look like, whatever, if it hadn't been a big news story, there's no way that they would have spent the time to find me. You know, it probably would have been I would never be able to go back there. But, yeah. And so you arrived in Salt Lake City, and then there was a trial, or did you plead guilty? Yeah, so, I mean, there were, I guess, yes, there was a trial, But it wasn't because, again, it was the banks who were filing. Not civil suits. I mean, not the people. But, yeah, I mean, for all the felonies and everything, it was these banks. So it was like the state of Utah versus me. And so basically, you know, you go through the process of appearing in court so many times. dates are getting canceled, rescheduled constantly. So you're really in a state of limbo. And I was again super fortunate that I was able to find an attorney that quite honestly you know I was like listen there a story here Do you you know you a good you a good attorney but is there any possible way that you would cut me a little bit of a deal because there's a moment here, right? And he was kind enough to do so, but it's, it's, there are a lot of people who can't and they have public defenders, which are for the most part doing, I mean, they're saints, but they're overworked. They're overloaded. Yeah, absolutely. You can't pay as much attention to every single person. And so, yeah, I was I was very fortunate. But even still, you know, it took months and months and months and months for me to be sentenced. And you were spending that time where? In mostly the Salt Lake City Adult Detention Center in D.C. And I say mostly because I had written some checks in other counties. And so there were like, you know, sometimes I'd be for like three or four days at another jail in a different county taking care of those charges. For the most part, I mean, you know, once I was sentenced, I had already been in jail for a significant amount of time. So they did give me, you know, that time counted toward the sentence. The sentence itself. Yeah. And so you only spent a few more months after that. Yeah, so I was there for, in total, total, it was like ten and a half months, that stint. There had been, you know, a couple in Utah prior to me leaving, which is how and why I had a mugshot to begin with. So, yeah, but that was the long haul. Was, for the sentencing, were your parents there? No, no. Media was, though, yeah. My parents, you know, they were put through it in so many ways as well because they had, again, I cannot stress how crazy it is to me how big this got. Because there were journalists knocking on their door. You know, my mom lived in Arizona, a state totally unrelated to all of this. Wow. You know, and people were calling them. people so it was really uh I mean it would have been traumatic for them anyway being a parent who the child you care about and love is going through it but yeah it was on another level uh and what was your relationship with them at the time at the time it was very they supported me throughout you know as far as like communicating with me letters yeah you know they would answer the phone when I called. They were putting money on my book sometimes. But really, you know, it was a lot of time to reckon with all of the relationships that I had destroyed, including, yeah, the one with my parents. There's an interesting moment in, I think, your book where you talk about how, as a kid still, they went, the people would go up to you, or this one woman, I think it was in a supermarket, she went up to you and said something that made you feel like you were lucky to have been adopted by this wonderful white couple and that made you feel like you now sort of for the rest of your life had to live up to that, right? Can you talk a little bit about that and how that relates to them being in prison and how you felt about that? yeah so that's pretty much the story is that I remember sitting in the car my mom you know shopping and someone came up to us and was just like oh you're so lucky that your parents saved you wow um and you're like how old at this time I mean I was young enough to be sitting in the front of the car you know what I mean yeah it's a little shopping cart yeah right um and but that was like one occurrence of many you know and it's people who meant well obviously they were but it was very much the I grew up feeling not only like so many parts of me were just wrong and and again a sin but also that if I ever questioned my feelings around my adoption or adoption in general that I was being ungrateful. And that, you know, so that is definitely a good example of being able to feel multiple ways. Right. Yeah, there's this enormous pressure already when you're growing up, right? But having to also make sure that you're not disappointing your parents because in so many ways, either you were so lucky that they saved you, which is not the case. But that's how that was instilled in you at such a young age. That must have weighed so heavily on you. It weighed very heavily on me, and it still does. That's something that, you know, my hundreds of hours of therapy have been dedicated to. But I think a big thing, too, though, is for adoptive parents, you know, sometimes it's hard for them when their child wants to discover more about their origin because, you know, they feel like maybe they're being replaced or whatever it is. It's complicated. But I think something that I want to stress, especially for, you know, a lot of these Korean adoptions is that everyone was a victim. Like, adoptive parents were victims. Like, it was, you know, sometimes I do wonder, okay, why an Asian baby specifically, right? like did you want people to know immediately that they had adopted was it like you just thought Asian babies were the cutest like beyond that though you know everyone had been lied to um so I think that again people were just doing the best they could at the time and we just did not understand the importance of at least where I was didn't understand the importance of culture. Do you think you're free of that now? This idea of owing them something? No, I think that's a tough one. I think I always, I still, there's so many times where I'm just like, oh my God, no, you can't feel that way. You know, like you can't be upset or confused about this. Like, you know, and it's like, no, actually I can because it is confusing and it is upsetting, but it's also like beautiful and loving and all of the things. Yeah. With like any relationship with parents and families. And I think that's what's like really the thing about my story is, yes, I took so many things to the nth degree, but ultimately it's very relatable in a lot of ways, right? Everyone knows what it feels like to not be accepted, to be teased, to wait for the other shoe to drop, you know, and unfortunately, especially now, people know what it feels like to be in financial distress of like, wow, if I lost my job, I would have to do something probably pretty drastic to be able to pay rent next month. What would that look like? And I'm not saying that's necessarily where I was at, but I think it's easy for people to see, okay, you know, sometimes people are in a state of mind where it's just kind of like got to do what you got to do. Right. Right. So prison, you said mentioned many times, not prison itself, but the people inside changed you. Can you explain that? Like what kind of people did you meet and what impact did that have on you? Yeah. I mean, I met all kinds of people. However, just because, again, statistically, a lot of those people were women of color. And so in Utah, a lot, you know, just with the proximity to the border, there were a lot of people who were going through, I mean, you know, immigration issues that I just saw that were, it was so unfair. They were being persecuted more so because of the status that they did or did not have as far as citizenship goes or, you know, whatever that may be. And obviously, we're seeing that on display now. It was a lot of people, you know, I write about it, but you can see people who had the same exact charges as, you know, a white woman. and they were getting much heavier and longer. Tent of times, yeah. So it was that. It was seeing people who were there for assault when, you know, they were defending themselves from a domestic abuse situation. I remember that happens a lot. One woman who had a charge that was assault with a weapon or, like, battery or I can't remember what the exact charge was, but it was because she hit this guy with a hairbrush. Oh, wow. And that became a weapon. Whoa. And she was simply just trying to get herself and her children out of a tough spot. And that's the other thing is that I think it's 54% of women who are incarcerated have kids. So you're, you know, destroying these families. And people are, again, very quick to say, well, didn't they destroy it themselves because they're the ones who committed the crime? And it's like, if only things were so straightforward. I think people also are always very curious about the danger inside prisons and the gangs and all of that. But what, in your case, where were sort of, or were there any sort of displays of kindness and humanity? And can you tell me some of those cases? So, so many. And then I can tell you a fun, a fun, a fun. Dangerous one. But, yeah, kindness constantly. Like, I mean, everyone, yes, you are in it for yourself and you're looking out for yourself first and foremost. But everyone, at least, you know, where I was, which was in multiple facilities, everyone just wanted to help. And that's not to say that they weren't gaining something by helping you. Sometimes it was more of exchange, but what relationship isn't, you know? But really it was people like, oh, you don't have money on your books. I'm going to buy you some ramen noodles. It could be, you know, trading library books. It could just be being there for one another to talk to. I mean, I remember birthdays would come and, you know, we would be, you know, quote, unquote, baking cakes by, you know, getting all these different treats on commissary and smashing them together. Like, you know, there was there's a lot of also jailhouse ingenuity that absolutely make stuff happen. I want to hear the danger story. But I also there's something you said about how for so long you always felt different. But in prison was the first time. Can you say that or can you explain that? That you felt like you were part of something larger. Yeah. There was like a weird acceptance, right? Of like, okay, we're all sort of at the bottom of, you know, of this hierarchy. Yeah, of society in many ways, right? Right. And it's like, okay, well, we band together and we look out for one another. And we, you know, cry with one another when people are given these crazy sentences or when people's children are sick or, you know, I mean, there were so many instances of things that happen on a day to day that because you don't have the access to, you know, communication, media, whatever, that you're just sort of left in the dark. and you're left to your own devices. And the only other people you have consistently are, you know, the other... Women or the other inmates, yeah, they become your family. So everything that they're going through matters tremendously to you. Yeah. And I think in women's prisons specifically, you know, unfortunately a lot of women have been sexually assaulted. so then you put them in situations where they're basically living in fishbowls and the majority of corrections officers you know in police force are men so you're putting them in situations where men are just watching them all the time like how is that doing anything for how is that safety how is that you know and i don't feel that any of these places are meant for made for people but especially not for women. Yeah, and women have been abused. And women have been abused. Did you ever feel that sort of power dynamic or did you ever feel unsafe from that perspective? You know, it's so fascinating because I was almost on the opposite end of the spectrum because my case had media attention the guards were very nice to me. Like I remember there was one who would like play music for me over the intercom like into myself like that kind of stuff whereas you know then you would see I guess the you know I don't like to but the the regular everyday inmate uh and you know no one was getting it no yeah you were treated differently because you were kind of like famous right you were like a famous person in prison yeah so yeah yeah I understand that and tell me about the dangerous story then yeah so I in Philadelphia so Philadelphia was I guess the the best comparison is it was it was like Orange is the New Black, right, where you have some, ironically, some freedom to like walk around, right? You're not always handcuffed. When you leave your pod, you can freely walk to the library or whatever. Utah was, even though I was a nonviolent offender, we were in our cells for the majority of the day. You know, we got out anywhere from like four to six hours a day. Wow. Again, how is that reforming people, right? How is that working on them and making them better people when they leave prison? Interestingly enough, one of the things that you were allowed to get out of yourself for was yoga, which I appreciate that they have, but also, you know, religious things and activities and groups. And so many of them are Mormon. And so, you know, there are a lot of people who are getting converted while incarcerated, which is not by design. But in Philadelphia, we had much more freedom to sort of be in other people's cells as well, get your hair done, that kind of thing. But that also meant that the inmates were able to band together more so in ways that you aren't when you're fully isolated. And so, yeah, there were situations where, you know, things would happen, interactions between corrections officers and some of the women there, and a full-blown riot took place. Oh, shit. Which was so crazy. And I was terrified. Like, this was not a thing I ever, I don't know if anyone ever expects to be in this position, but I certainly was like. So the inmates sort of turned against the CEOs? Yeah. Yeah. And ultimately, there were, I mean, you know, people using their lunch trays as shields. Wow. The CEOs called backup, so there were, you know, a dozen people in riot gear coming in, trying to come in. Wow. What were you doing at this point? And I was, well, I was panicking. I mean, I was kind of frozen in place, just like, what the fuck is going on? Also, what do I do? Like, also, what can I do? And someone took care of me. They were like, come on, let's get you into your cell. Go and sit down. Another inmate. Yeah, yeah. Like, let's get you out of this. Because basically, I mean, they didn't say this, but essentially it was like, you're not ready. You're not capable. Right. You're not capable of taking care of yourself in this situation. um so yeah and it was it was over very quickly and uh but it it was that was wild yeah that is fucking wild did you write about it in the book i can't wait to get to that part yeah that's great and then you'll see how it all came to be because it wasn't uh it wasn't just out of the blue So, yeah. Huh. Okay. Yeah. I will read it. The teaser for the book. I love it. Making people want to read it. Hopefully. And, okay, and then you left prison and you had a really hard time. Can you tell me a little bit about that period? And is it true that you were homeless at one point too? Yeah. So when I got out, I was like, okay, what am I going to do with my life? Like I was getting I was contacted I was being contacted, you know, by a lot of different publications, by production companies wanting to make documentaries. One of the things I used to flex while I was incarcerated was that I was talking to Inside Edition. And so, you know, they were I was on the phone with them a lot. They were sending me things. And that was like such a, you know, like, look at me. Like sending you gifts? Not gifts, but just, like, information, like, packets, questions, like, things to sign if I wanted to participate, you know. So they were hoping to do an interview with you once you left. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And they did. We actually ended up doing it. But, yeah, when I got out, I was like, okay, so I either have to, like, fully lean into being this character, right, this person. Yeah, like a celebrity con artist, essentially, yeah. Because it was, like, because also it was. Or a former con artist, by the way. But really, I mean, I could be former as much as I want. I even still to this day, people sometimes choose to, you know. Call you a con artist, too. They don't. And I, you know, know also media and entertainment, the landscape. It's like, yeah, sometimes you have to kind of lean into that a little bit. So, sure, call me a con artist if you want. But now my con is, like, to go up against, you know, the real scammers. I like it. But I didn't know what I was going to do, and I just wanted to, like, fade into obscurity. Because I was, yeah, over it, but, like, I didn't want to be known as just that person. Even though I think that I probably could have, like, made a decent living off of it. I mean, other people have gone on to show that that's totally possible. But that's not what I wanted. And so I was like, okay, I'm just going to get my shit together. I knew that I wanted to come back to New York. So I requested a transfer for my probation and was able to come back. But while I was still in Utah, because it took a while to get that approval, I was homeless. And so I literally was like finding people to stay with on Craigslist that those were not good situations. You know, it's like staying with, you know, random couples, random men, you know. And I think it's just a good example of showing how hard it can be to even attempt to do the right thing, you know. Yeah. um and yeah i i'm sorry no yeah the system is stacked up against you i think when you leave prison very much so very very hard and i was fortunate because i actually met my partner who we've been married for almost 15 years oh i didn't know you were married yeah we met while i was in utah on probation and he was one of the first people that i was just like okay, I'm going to be straight up honest with you. Like, here's what's going on. Here's who I was slash am. And yeah, I mean, it has, I joke that we were the kind of crazy that worked. My crazy worked with his crazy. And, you know, we have an amazing life and kind of architected it to be the way that we want it to be, both with our relationship, but also just the way that we move through the world together and separately. But he was a big part of why I was able to get out of my homeless situation was because he helped to, we helped each other really get back on the right path. And then you both moved to New York together. He actually, a former military, and so at the time was working for a contractor, ultimately the Department of Defense. So the first two years of our relationship, he was in Afghanistan. Huh. Yeah. Wow. So it was, you know, there's a lot, there are a lot of similarities with being incarcerated and being in the military. So we bonded over a lot of that. And you said when you came out, you had a lot of opportunities to be on TV and do shows, but you decided you didn't want to at the time. It didn't feel right. It didn't feel right to make money out of something that ultimately you felt shame around. It was that. And it was just like knowing that I didn't want to be known for the thing. And, you know, I'm sure there will be listeners, viewers who are like, ha ha, well, you wrote a book about it, you know. But it's like, yes, 15, 16 years later, you know, this was not, I had taken a lot of time to process all of this and really come to see, you know, yeah, I mean, obviously I knew what I was doing was wrong. but really to see how and why and again the long-term effects of those things and um I think in many ways oddly enough like the media controlled my own narrative about myself right at that during those periods of time and now I'm able to see like hey I do actually have an interesting story uh and I have such an interesting story on its own I never needed to lie but I never felt like it was good enough on its own you know whatever uh and so yeah now I mean my work is really dedicated to again talking about all of these issues and things I care about but including prison reform right yep that's a big one advocacy around that and the judicial system and the carceral state in general uh other human rights issues obviously a lot of things around you know lgbtq plus issues uh especially coming from the state of Utah right uh I think that's so uh so awesome that you are being able to then use your platform and even the things that you did wrong but turning it around and then using it as a yeah like a platform to make changes and to to to talk about stuff things that are important for you yeah all through dark comedy and like a salacious internet presence. Because I really, I mean, I kind of find that ironic in a lot of ways, that I'm doing kind of the same things that made the story so popular and big to begin with, but now for a purpose. And I really appreciate, first of all, that people are so open to, you know, me doing this and wanting to listen and again so so appreciative for anyone and everyone who read reads my book whatever follows me you know uh but I just don't see the point in any of this if not trying to make things better for others especially those for marginalized communities um and really to be totally honest with you and this is not to say that I haven't loved this conversation but I'm so over telling my story you know yeah yeah and and I can see that through it you're trying to process constantly and every word you're saying you're trying to sort of explain yourself but also then not trying to make it feel like you're trying to come up with too many excuses why you did with what you did and there's yeah there's like there must be a lot of pressure in that too it's a lot of pressure and it's also like you know my whole thing is okay That was that. That's what made, like, sure, you know, but now let's look to the future. Yeah. What is happening? And so I, through dark comedy, I mean, I truly believe in education through entertainment. Yeah. I think that it's so easy to, like, like an Instagram carousel. You're, like, agree with every single word. But then if someone asks you five minutes later, what did that say? Like, you can't remember. You can't remember. Right. But if you really connect with something like a piece of art, you know, that's how people absorb information. So I have a production company called Without Wax. And, you know, I really want to concentrate on telling other people's stories, specifically, you know, other queer women of color. But just anyone. I think that mine has very much served an incredible purpose. And I'm like, all right, what's next? And that's really, again, I think I've always, I've always been a storyteller for better or worse. And mine is, yeah, I just, I. What do you hope your impact is in the world? What do you hope your story will tell? That's a good question. But yeah, what do you want to leave behind? I mean, I hope I would love to get to a point where I'm able to make real actual change within legislation. Is that going to be possible? I don't know. But I would like to have made a difference in those ways. But at the very least, in just getting people to think about things through a different lens, through a more compassionate lens. I think a lot of times some of the facts and things that I talk about about these places people don't realize you know again like the pay to stay aspect of it. Yeah I have no idea and I've reported a lot in prisons. Yeah so it's just you know moving the needle toward a more compassionate society and looking at why we see punishment the way that we do. you know you mentioned it earlier it's like how could we expect you know treating people this way for them to be able to get out and do what they need to do to live productive lives right like so yeah really just uh I think I have a very unique perspective on all of this on life honestly in general because it's been a wacky one and the hits just keep on coming like I've chaos attracts chaos. And there's no getting around that. I have just learned how to channel the chaos into productivity. And I think that's so important. And that's also something that has to be taught. So I would really love for my work to showcase that. And maybe there's someone out there where this can be a sort of cautionary, in the beginning, cautionary tale, but then a, I don't know, uplifting one in the sense that like, yeah, you can move forward. Right. And a story that shows nuance and shows, yeah, all the spaces in between. Yeah. I think that, and I'm not thinking of anyone in particular, but, you know, there are like times where I get contacted a lot where it's like, oh, there's this new scammer out. Do you want to talk about them? Like, you know, it's just like, oh, well, you're a grifter. They're a grifter. What do you have to say? And it's like, I don't, I rarely, rarely, I don't think I've ever actually done one of those. But it's like, you know, people will take their own paths and they can do what they want. But I feel very strongly about if you have a platform, you need to use it for good. You need to be doing something with it that makes some sort of change, you know, because, again, like I'm so fortunate. But now I just get to work with all of my friends who are the most amazing, incredible, smartest, hottest, you know, creative people in the world. And, you know, I can't I can't forget that I put in a lot of work to to be that great friend, to be that great partner, to be, you know, and of course I still have faults. Like, I think the other thing is it's like no one, like, you can change, but you, A, shouldn't want to change everything, and you shouldn't just based upon, like, ideological stuff. Like, I think it's so interesting when we talk about, like, okay, this is a new chapter. Like, okay, sure, maybe it's a new chapter, but it's the same book. So, like, let's not pretend, like, that this didn't happen. This didn't happen. And I, again, am lucky because I'm in a place where I can own it fully. And it's an asset in some ways. But there are a lot of people who can't. Right. Because it will end their careers or it will make it impossible for them to, you know, for their kids to get into a certain daycare. Like it really extends beyond the individual. Right. Yeah. And I think that not everybody who even is able to own their own stories ends up doing it. So I commend you for that and commend you for telling your own story in such a funny way, which is even better. And I really enjoyed talking to you. I love how you're vulnerable, how you've obviously done the work and looking at the stuff you do. I also understand that you're really fed up with talking about this. I appreciate you giving us the time to sharing your story again. Thank you so much. And I, you know, again, I didn't mean to sound flippant or anything. And it's just like, okay, this is, I love having these kinds of conversations because then I am able to talk about things that actually matter to me. But, you know, sometimes there will be these almost like shock jock kind of podcasts or radio shows where it's like they just want the meaty, juicy stuff. And I'm like, okay, but I can give that to you in other ways. Right. I can be meaty and juicy in many different avenues. Right, without rehashing the whole thing. but yeah thank you so much for all the work that you do and thank you oh the honor is all mine and I'm going to say it again because I'm right at the beginning of the book but I'm loving it so much that people should read it you'll never believe me a life of lies second tries and things I should only tell my therapist Carrie loved having you on the podcast thank you for coming thank you I appreciate it you