Ep 1259 | Why the Robertsons Reject the Idea That Pro-Life Is Just an Opinion

I am Unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to The Unashamed Podcast. We are in our second CS Lewis episode. We've upgraded with some coffee from John Luke who took a rather long break to go fix one cup of coffee. I'm the one on the time constraint and then I asked John Luke to make me some coffee. It's nice having a coffee guru amongst our people. I love good coffee and we're doing this in the afternoon because our schedules are so crazy. I have to have it, especially talking about the objectivity of reason and all that. Why do you have a heart out today? I got to get my teeth clean. After you're drinking black coffee. I brought us a thing of floss. I get so nervous about going in to have someone work on your mouth right after you've had coffee or whatever. Black coffee before a dentist appointment, it's a bold move. It's a bold move. It's no better time. Get it cleaned up. Get them bleached out side. Side has new teeth which was made this day be on the podcast. Did that kind of push you to make sure you... I mean, I'm just getting mine clean, Zach. I'm pulling them all out of my head. It's not quite that dramatic. What got me about side was that he waited till 77 years old. But then I finally found out why. I don't know if I can say this, but I'm going to. I guess I was like, cut it, mate, if it's not right. But I said, well, why did you do this? Wait till 77. He said, hey, because it's free. So the guy apparently traded side the work for whatever he's doing for him. Well, that's worth it. It was worth it because he has all his teeth. Oh, he's amazing. I've never seen him look that good. He looks great. Well, this is Unishaing for Hillsdale. You guys can check it out. Unishaingforhillsdale.com. You can take the course with us or going through the work of CS Lewis, which is super exciting. My brothers are dentist by the way. Also, if you lived up here, you might get a discount on your brother. I don't want your brother anywhere near my teeth. I'm just going to tell you right now. I love him to death, but this man, he might just implant something in there that later he could, you know, make me suffer. I don't know. Grant's got a sadistic personality at times. I don't want him anywhere near my teeth. You're so nervous. I sound like an anti-dintite. I'm an anti-grantite. I don't tell you if he's the dentist. One of the best side-filled episodes of the anti-dintite. It was a good one. What does he say? You're next thing you know, you're going to say they should have their own school. He's like, they do. Here you go. You're an anti-dintite. Thank you for bringing that side-filled because the young people don't appreciate side-filled anymore because, you know, it's not, it's a 30-year-old television show, but people might love it. We watched the whole thing. You may have watched the every episode of the song that I loved it. Yeah. And it was like new to you, right? It's new, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so good. It's still funny. And it's so funny because a lot like the office is kind of y'all's arrogance, right? Yeah. And then, so, and I love the office, too, by the way. I love the office. But, side-filled was a little different animal, but it's funny because a lot of new generation, they don't think side-fell is very funny. And especially because, you know, it was old comedy that, you know, you could make fun of somebody and it didn't mean you were demeaning or race of people or whatever, whatever, like the anti-dintite. But there were all these like double meanings and it made, that's what made it funny. And it was kind of like old comedy that now people are kind of runaway from. But it seems to be coming back. So, yeah, it's coming back. Side-fill was classic though. And there's a little bit more nuance to the humor than slapstick comedy. Right. Yeah, so you got to, it is more of a higher brow humor, oh, man, man, I lost some side-fill. But that fits what we're doing in this course, that because we're in high brow country right now. Christian and I have been brought into the world of philosophy and apologetics. But I will say it's been great. And everything we've done in this Hillsdale study, all of our biblical study as well as now what we're doing is, has helped me grow. Yeah. And you know, as someone who's 61 years old, I spent my entire adult life studying the Bible, teaching, traveling around the country, trying to help people, just what we're talking about today, which is people converting to Christianity, changing their life. You can never stop learning. Yeah. And you never want to quit reading and quit exposing your mind to things that can help you grow. And so, I just think it's been great. And I hope you guys out there, or I know you're listening, so you're going along the ride with us. But tell other people about it too, because we want them to experience this. Hillsdale is a great opportunity of just what we talked about last time, this idea that objective truth will clear the path to water and irrigate those deserts out there, young people coming in wanting to know what they need to know. Yeah. And that's what's cool about the course is like, whether it's been Genesis Exodus, David, or now, see us Lewis, like I'm writing a, like a devotional series now on David, because of how inspired and cursed I was doing the Hillsdale course, because it made me want to learn more and study more. And usually when you take courses, you know, it'll be, that's all you want to do. You don't really want to, you know, go do more things outside of that and kind of keep studying it post, post lectures. But with everything we've done so far, I've just kept reading Genesis, I've kept reading Exodus, I've kept reading David, because the, yeah, it's the lectures. And whoever's taught them has encouraged me and inspired me so much that I've wanted to actually stay in the material and keep learning. So it's been actually awesome and really, really beneficial for me. Yeah, one of the things that I didn't mention in the last episode, I think it's key when I kind of mentioned it. I think that back I mentioned it at the very end when I mentioned Dr. Starns, Dr. Sorry, Dr. when I mentioned Dr. Arns, inter-Dr. Dr. Starns, Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr I think therefore I am. And so this became like a really famous saying in our culture. But what Descartes was essentially getting at was that the most foundational thing that you could know to be true. The most fundamental thing that a person could know to be true is that they exist because in order to contemplate their existence, in order to think they must exist in order to contemplate their own existence. And so that was like the most fundamental thing that you could know to be true. But there's actually something even more fundamental than that that I think Lewis was hitting on. And it is that that law of non-contradiction, that things have to make sense. That something can't be true and not be true at the same time. That things have to make sense. And so his method of figuring out what's true about the world, about God, about the claims of Christianity, the claims of any other belief system is in the end does it make sense. And that's what he was moving towards. And so I think that's the foundation of his whole work is just trying to figure out what actually makes sense. And I think that's good for us too as we move into kind of this more. And especially now we're calling it kind of the return, the era, the return to common sense in terms of as a people. Because last couple of decades, that's great. Let's admit it. It's been crazy in terms of politics and a lot of other things. When you said that Zach, it took me back to something Ronald Reagan said when he was talking about being pro-life or pro-choice. And he said, well, the thing about it is you have to be born to have an opinion one way or the other. And I just thought that was such a powerful thing because it's true. Like in other words, if you're on the side where you're for abortion, you're on the side where somebody had not been ever able to have that opinion that you hold because you've ended their possibility to do that. And so I think that's another one of those just straight, common truths and objectivity we should look at. And it really ties into this because you remember in abolition of man, C.S. Lewis uses, it was three things that's interesting when you go to people's era as his examples. The airplane, the wireless and contraceptive. That was his three things to talk about. Those things out there that change and can become subjective for people. And he tells us out at the airplane that people were just starting to go on the airplane. He said, so you think, oh, this gizmo, this freedom. But only if they'll take you where you want to go. Was this point about objective or in other words, if that thing's out in land at the right time at the right place, then you're not free at all. Whoever's in charge, the airplane is in charge. And he uses the same thing about contraceptives. And it was interesting because probably in his mind, he said, there he couldn't have even imagined abortion. But I guess contraceptives were new. And he took that as the idea that somehow now we're planning the future, meaning that we're going to be in charge of that. But his point was every time there's a future, then whatever you've planned, they're a slave to what you've planned for them, which is very interesting. You don't think about that, what you do for the next generation. So I just thought those were interesting thoughts back to that argument about objective versus subjective. And of course, ultimately, it's what led him to Christ because his argument was suffering. He was like, how could there be a God if it's such a cruel place? And so then he basically ridiculed Christianity for what he claimed until, like Zach, you said at the end of our last podcast, he came to that point and said, but that is subjective life. My thought is objective. So there must be something more. Why would I even have this morality? Why would I care about cruelty? Unless there was something in me. Yeah. Well, I wrote out kind of an argument of how I interpreted C.S. Lewis backing into the Christian faith through the problem of evil. And this is how it goes that they could make sense. I don't believe in God because objective evil exists. But objective evil can't exist unless God exists. And objective evil does exist, therefore God must exist. So that's how he backed into the argument. He looks at the world and he's like, man, how could all of this like horrible pain and evil and abuse and disease and horrible, horrible things? How could this exist in a world where there was a God? And then the question is, well, why is it horrible? Why is it bad? Why are these things bad? And without God, you really can't make a, you can't come up with a coherent reason for why any of that is evil. Why is the Holocaust evil? Without God, it's just, it's just, it's just chemical physical reactions that are happening. What makes something inherently evil or inherently good is that it has to be objective. And so the very, like, and think about where you live at. It's really the most real thing that you can know. Like when someone that you love dies and you feel that pain or when there's a divorce in your family and you feel that pain or when there's a child that's born and you feel overwhelming joy, whatever that is, that good or bad that you're absorbing and feeling, it transcends anything else that you know. And it may be the most fundamental thing that you can though is that, man, I don't know why, but that is good. And I don't know why, but that is horrible. Well, it's objectively good or evil. We want you guys to take the course with us so you can sign up. It's free at unashamedforhillsdale.com. And what I love about it is his conversion, because again, I didn't even know he was converted. I just, I kind of always assumed he probably was always a Christian and, you know, grew up with a pastor dad or something like that and became the man he became. And so I was fascinated by his story. And the fact that JR are token, I mean, who was one of the guys that led him to Christ, blew me away once again, because I had no idea. I didn't even know he was a Christian or a believer. And, you know, I've loved all the, his stuff, his works. I've read them, watched the movies. And so the fact that he and another guy took the time to tell the story and shape this man that would shape so many others, I think really is the heart of Christianity. Now, the first one really was hard for me to wrap my brain around. Today's lesson and today's lecture is right in my wheelhouse, because it's about leading people to the story. Because, you know, I thought the way Professor Ward did that was cool, because you know, there was, it was, C.S. Lewis talking and then he said, he said another guy who's not as well known. There's kind of like me, Jason Zag. I don't know, man, I'll say. Well, there was an article that came out. That is C.S. Oh, and the guy, yeah, there's a Fox News article. I don't know what it is. No, I'm already mad about that. There's a Fox News article that I'm going to say. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I don't know. I don't know. Well, there was an article that came out. I don't know what it is. No, that's not that bad about that. There's a Fox News article that I'm going to throw it out there, because this does make me mad. Like, we had this great conversation, which was my idea to bring it out. You sent me the material. And then the article literally, it's about an episode we did and it references how in Jason's conversation, I'm not even in the picture. And a couple of the lines, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I said that. I haven't gone back to verify you yet. But I think they took my lines and attributed them to Jason. So yeah, I'm the forgot. I'm the Hugo Dyson of the team. So the click mate was Doug Madnessy, stars, discuss this incident and another guy. I didn't even get another guy. You're the other guy that also was there with this list of tokens. Well, it was talking. You know what's, there's a pub in England and Jill and I went there when we went recently, or last year we went to London. And we actually got to go to the Kills and see where CSL Lewis's house is. We went to Oxford. We did the whole thing. It was pretty awesome. I have to, it was grave, went to his church. It was quite the experience because I'm kind of a CSL Lewis buff. But there was, you know, when you think about, there's a pub there where he would drink beers with, I'm sure Dyson was there, but token was there. And I think TS Elliott was there as well. When you think about the brilliance around those conversations, I would, like to me, that would be the best movie that someone should make. As a movie of these guys who all of them are just brilliant and they're on right. But I mean, independently they're amazing. But can you imagine that collective conversation between these guys? Well, you run a production company, Zach. You could, yeah, make it a movie. You can make that movie. If anybody's got a bunch of money that they want to spend on a movie, call me up. I will make the movie, but I don't have enough money to fund it. So I need a best story. It will be free like Hillsdale, but you can. It will be free. It will be free like he's not anywhere close to free. But no, I thought that story was so cool of just thinking about, yeah, the three of those men who are so brilliant, just walking around campus at night time and they kind of challenge Lewis to think about the Bible. Yeah, more of as a drama and as a story. Because you see that with people and I thought it was cool the way Professor Warren was talking about that with Lewis was that he would, he loved the idea of the Bible in other situations. Like whether it was mythology or these, because he was like, I love the idea of a God sacrificing himself basically to himself. If it were back us or one of these pagan deals. Love it in the pagan world. Yeah, but when he got in the Bible, he didn't like it. And I think you see that with people all the time. It's like they love these other principles. But then when it gets in the Bible, it's they don't for something about it gets squarely to them. But yeah, just think about those three men just walking around campus at night and them challenging Lewis. And it was that simple framework of just reading the Bible through a drama and story, and kind of take out all the theological and all the, you know, the more, you know, higher thinking stuff and just read it as a drama. And that's pretty much what converted him back to Christianity. But I thought him saying, I thought Lewis saying that he loved the idea in the more pagan sense. He loved that. But something about the Bible, it kind of turned him off. I thought that was interesting. And that was really how they got him to reconsider it was to look at the story of Christ, look at the story of the Bible and take it for what it is. Not what you presuppose going into it. And I'm almost sure there's no way that he was an impacted by that early life experience because remember his, I think it was his mother's father was an anglic pastor or whatever they would call him back then. And so he had that experience and then he went through the thing at the school and then he went through the thing where he basically lost, you know, his vision or faith at all for then most, you know, big chunk of his life until he's older. And so you can see how that impacts you. And I even thought about Zach, you mentioned a little bit on the last podcast about how you came to faith. And it was kind of like him. It was like, because you grew up, I mean, I know you grew up knowing about Christ because of your mom and dad and my aunt, who's Zach's mom. It's one of the most, you know, amazing spiritual, godly women you ever met. I mean, tell me, know the book and know the word. And yet you had to come to it yourself. I mean, you couldn't just rely on that. At some point you had to come to that organization. And I think it was similar with Lewis for sure. For me, mine was less about that and more just about environmental because I grew up in a terrible situation, which we made a movie about. And you know, the little kid running around it is just a kid in a movie unless it's you. You know, and then he watched the movie and you're like, whoa, you know, you remember back what that was like. And so for me, it was more just survival. And then all of a sudden it was like, we're in this good situation. Like it was good and dad is there and he's like trying to do the right thing and still slipping a little bit here and there. But I mean, you just saw him trying. And then all of a sudden, I just, I lost my bearings because everything I had known changed. And even though it changed for the better, you think, well, man, that's the perfect situation for you. But sometimes it's not because now all the always of thinking are all upside down. And so a lot of times in my mind, at my age, that became a doubt point for me. And it wasn't really doubting God. I just, I just didn't know that I wanted to be God anymore. And I had been for a long time because now I was suddenly my world was godly and I started darkening. So I became a particle son for like four years. And first it was just hiding in plain sight. And then finally I did just like the Luke 15 kid and I hit the road. And then I came to the point of realizing, like my dad did, that if I stay here, I'll die here. And I'll die here not the way I want it. It's terrible. It's miserable. It's a miserable existence to be alone. Not have your family, not have anybody. And so then I come back to Christ now, finally, heart and hand, open to who he is. And so at 18 years old, I mean, that started my journey. And so, but it was completely different than this experience. But that's the beauty of Christ and God is wherever you are, whether it's environmental, intellectual, some other setting or situation or someplace. You don't know anything about God. You may grow up in three generations and nobody ever talked about God. And then all of a sudden, the story hits you and you realize that, man, this gives me some meaning, it gives me something good. So my story's that was completely different from yours. We now share that same bond. I don't know if that was that different. I mean, I think as you were talking about that, I was thinking about. With Lewis, I get a ton of, I've gotten a lot of pushback over the years on teaching apologetics and presenting apologetics. Mainly in the form of you're intellectualizing the faith or some version of that. You make it as too smart or what it's to this or too heavy or what it's some version of that. And I understand the pushback in it. And I will say this that I have gone down the rabbit hole with people on like back in the last probably 12 years, but up until about 12 years ago, like if you want to get into a discussion on apologetics, you want to get into a debate on the merits of Christianity. You want to talk about intelligent design. Whatever. Well, you want let's go. And I would argue until I was blue in the face and you know how many people that I saw come to Christ through those arguments. Do you say I never, I never really did. And I think that for me, it was super helpful and apologetics. It has been super helpful for me in, in my own personal journey and answering objections and being intellectually satisfied in all of that. But, but my experience has been very similar to what see us Lewis have, what happened to him is that he had gone through more of the intellectual side of it and had wound up, at least in this moment where he's taken walks with Dyson and Tolkien, where he was more of a deist. So he believed intellectually that these things were true, but to your point, which I thought was probably the best point of this whole entire lecture was what Christian was talking about. But he would, he would approach the pagan religions and he would be like, this is beautiful. I love this. I'm inspired by it, but it came to Christ. He was like, oh, I can't accept it. And the reason what moved him was when Tolkien and Dyson, I wrote it down because I thought it was a very beautiful, very beautiful, by Dr. Ward is that they encouraged him to forget about the theological and logical explanations for a minute. We're not throwing it away. You just, for a minute, can you just put that to the side? I can just imagine them saying, just settle down with all of that heavy intellectual stuff. And for a moment, can you relax into the Christian story? And I love the way that sounds and the picture that that paints, can you relax into the Christian story? Can you enjoy the story of Jesus Christ and explore it with imagination? And probably the last 10 years of my life, I've been focused more on that. The imagination that is cultivated when we explore the story of King Jesus. And that, to me, is the ultimate apologetic that transcends some kind of intellectual argument. Not that that's bad. Not that that's something we should be engaged in, but man, Christ has invited us into a story. So when you, oh, the language you just used was that same language. You accepted an invitation into a new story. You were re-stored and I have been re-stored and continue to be re-story. So I found that to be extremely powerful point of this whole entire lecture. Yeah. And the way that, and we want you to sign up, by the way, take the course with us free at unashamedforhillsdown.com. The way I described it, the wording I use that, and it's very similar to some of the wording that Dr. Ward used was, I say that my story, finally intersected Christ story, which had always been there. Like in other words, Christ story was there. But my story finally intersected. I mean, only intersects when you're finally open to the idea of who Christ is. And I love the way that they described Dr. Ward as an election at how he first believed in God, but then he came to believe in Christ. And he even quoted John 146 when Jesus' I'm the way and the truth in the life, no one comes to the Father God except through me. So in other words, you have to go on that journey to get there. And I've even thought about his act, just look at the historical timing of it. Like this was in 1931 when this happened for CS Lewis. And his lecture series on the radio, which was the airwaves he talked about in his book, was his second only to Winston Churchill's addresses about the works. That was a cool fact. Very powerful. So you think about the whole world that was getting that at the time. Yeah. And getting those lectures. And if he had not become a believer in 1931, he wouldn't have been available to this stack of books and much more to do those lectures for all those people in the hardest, most difficult time up until that point in human history for the modern world. And he was there. He was God's guy in the moment. But only because his story intersected with Christ. I mean, what a powerful thing to show you how powerful God is. I want a couple of things. Think about CS Lewis overall. But before that, Zach, I want to push back on you saying that you never saw someone converted through your apologetics. Because I think that one of the powerful ways that apologetics teaches us about God and have people share about God is that it makes us think about it. And it's a slow learning. And it's a deep learning. It's not an alter-call moment. So you don't see people get baptized. But it does shift minds. And I think that definitely happened. And specifically for me, I think about myself as a kid, listening to you, preach apologetics, at widespread road, I think it was like a special Wednesday night thing. Yeah, I did a series. Yeah. Yeah, series. Now, I remember seeing there as a kid watching you, I guess how old I would have been, but thinking like, oh, wow, there's more to this. And like, starting to think deeply and hearing like the, all the different, the ontological argument, the cosmological argument, like being exposed to all of that for the first time and starting to think deeper. And that was just impactful for me. Hmm, wow. Thank you. There you go. That is awesome. What, what can you, will you put that on Instagram? Yeah. Cliff that. There's your clip for this episode. Cliff that and tag me hashtag. It was funny. You started it back. It was then you wanted to push back. But then you had to love making that. I'm like, I'm saying I'm a push back. I'm like, let's keep up. Yeah. Well, it's true though. I mean, I think, and this particular thing is about his, like when they talk about his conversion, I think you're right. It is a, I mean, like to get to the point even in CS Lewis's conversion moment, you know that there were years before this, these conversations and these long walks that he would take with his friends that paid the way for this conversion. So that's actually a really good point. I'll receive that. Well, my next point on CS Lewis is, I really think I don't think this is, this might be a hot take, but I don't think it is. I don't think that if CS Lewis was alive today and he was right today, I don't think that he would be as well loved as he is right now. I think you're right. I think one thing he did so well at the time that is actually applicable to us is he pushed back on both sides. He was against subjectivism. He really challenged that in like a cultural review, but he also really pushed back on fundamentalism and dogma and beliefs and not questioning the Bible. And so he really challenged both sides. And I think if he was saying the things he was saying and you were watching it on TikTok or Reels while you were scrolling through, I think he would get so much hate from Christians saying like he's not quoting the Bible, he's not reading the Bible, he's making it to whatever he's being to philosophy like philosophical. Because if you read these books and this whole stack of them rarely does he quote a verse. In all of his Narnia books, rarely does he make like a specific Bible quote. But what he does is he asks these questions like what is the problem of pain? Why do we suffer? Why do I feel sadness even though I'm joyful? And he wrestles through these questions and you watch him wrestle through the questions in the books from a philosophical perspective that you just don't see in the mainstream now. You're not really allowed to do that. You're not, right. You can't wrestle. And you can't let the soul. You don't see the wrestling, but that's what he's doing in the books. And even to say this, this might be a hot take. I don't, there's things that, there's answers to those questions and the argument that he makes that are very outdated from a philosophical perspective. Like modern atheists or theologians or whoever's the people debating right now are have new answers to the questions and have quote unquote beaten some of the answers that CS Lewis provides in these books from a modern perspective. But that's okay, like that's what philosophy is. Arguments go on. Arguments go on, but we as Christians and as a culture, we I think kind of got stuck on some of these CS Lewis arguments and was like, that's the answer. When really the point was the question, was the arguing it and was from looking at it from a philosophical perspective versus, I think what we see a lot, what we do have a lot now, which is scientific perspectives, Bible literature perspectives. Like we have a lot of those apologists and I think they're doing really good work. But we don't have this philosophical mindset like CS Lewis had at the time. Yeah, I had a very well known Christian apologist on the not yet now podcast and someone who I've read a lot of his work respect a lot and think is absolutely brilliant. Let me say that. But I asked the question of kind of like what Lewis is talking about here or what Dr. Ward was talking about of just like when CS Lewis's buddies were like, man, can you just like relax into the Christian story? Can you just enjoy the story of Christ? Can you just explore it with imagination? And I was asking this particular apologist about just the beauty of the gospel, just the beauty of the kingdom, just the beauty of the story of Christ. And I said, what do you think about that? Like don't we need more apologists? Like what, how would you talk about the intersection of aesthetics and beauty when it comes to the story of Jesus and how we participate in that? And he was like stunned by the question and he was like, I've never thought about it. He said, but I think that'd be a good field of study for somebody to go into. And I'm like, now I'm talking about a field of study. I'm talking about like a real participation in the life of Christ. And I think that's what's interesting to your point, John Lucas, I don't think Lewis was trying to construct a systematic apologetics that we had an answer in a flow chart for every objection that someone might have towards Christianity. What he did instead was really open up the story in a way that you could sit into it. And I love the way that Dr. Ward has said that he became a participant in the story of Christ in 1931. I love that language. He became a participant in the story of Christ. And I thought about what we talk about so much on the podcast that we are partakers of the divine nature. We crisis invited us into to participate in the inner life of God. Lewis painted over and over and over again a picture that stares my imagination for just that very thing. I love another phrase that was used. I think it was an abolition of man. And that was effective believer. Or it could have been a mere Christianity, but that's another great one. I mean, that's right there were participants and effective believer. In other words, it's one thing to be a believer, but to be effective, that means you have to be able to be used to be effective. And I like the picture you painted, John Luke, because it also shows you that the kingdom of God needs a broad structure in it to be able to be effective. And so if you try to be all things, you're probably not going to do any one thing really effectively. It's better everybody has a gift or an ability. And we talked about just our group around the table. We have different things that we're good at. And so those are the things that I stick to what I'm best at. I want to expose myself to every thought that's out there, that helps me grow as an individual. But I know there's areas that I'm good at attacks on the bow. That's what that's who I need to be. That's my willhouse. That's where I need to go. But man, to study this and to listen and hear you guys talk about it, it inspires me. Because or to go see Lion Witch in the Wardrobe, I mean, or one of those movies, I totally see the nuance of how he's bringing out these pictures of Christ through Aslan and all these different things. And so I thought, man, that's brilliant because that was beautiful art about what we believe. And it was done suddenly. And I used to think he was doing it just to like, hide it. But now I realize that's just who he is. I mean, it's just the way he approaches it. So I think the Kingdom of God is such a large movement. You go to Hebrews 12 and you read about it. I mean, this is going across human history. This is other beings. This is us. This is philosophers. This is pastors. And we're all in this thing to try to get to this relationship with God. So I think it's beautiful. Yeah, the nuance of the line with the Witch in the Wardrobe is pretty incredible. I mean, John, that we were talking about that earlier when we were driving in together of just how, yeah, because the thing that's so cool about Lewis is that in the line with Witch in the Wardrobe, he kind of takes his higher thinking and kind of makes it simple for kids to understand with the Wardrobe with Aslan and then the Witch. And just kind of the way that you see the good versus the evil. But yeah, it makes you watch the movie and makes you read the book. But it makes you want to dig deeper into those meanings because it is nuance. And it is kind of like what you said. You don't know if he's trying to hide it, but it is. It's hidden enough to where you have to actually go seek out something beyond that and kind of find the deeper truth in it. But yeah, I haven't seen that movie in forever, but listen to the lectures and talk about it. It makes me really go back to the old series again. And you know, he mentioned something I want to get into. I'm glad you brought up about the movie in the book in that particular book. And then it's in apparently several other ones. This idea, if he called it a V-shape, where you have to descend to a scene. Yeah, he talks about it. He said, descent, utter descent, and then ascension, which is that idea of brokenness and like coming to Christ. And he experienced it as well. And the way he talked about it was it was bittersweet. This idea and dismay and discomfort come into Christianity because otherwise, and that was one of the stories. His first writing after he became a Christian was the member of the guy that sees the island. And then, you know, so he's trying to figure out how he's going to get there. But he never would have gotten there, had he not been dismayed and uncomfortable. Otherwise, he would stay there. And obviously, C.S. Lewis has told him about himself because he had this intellectual picture and he was going forward and there was no God. And, you know, so they didn't have to worry about everything. Until one day, he realized that his own objective truth led him to the idea that there had to be a God. Well, now he's uncomfortable. I got that question wrong on the quiz. Did you really? I put despair. The answer was dismay. Yeah. And so, you're similar. I liked that idea and then the diver was cool. The diver analogy with the other one. What was that, miracles? That was just a miracle. Yeah, the diver that dives down into the abyss and he's in the kind of the warm water that goes down further than he's in, you know, the cool water to reach the jewel and then comes up to the depths and then, you know, sticks the jewel above the surface and as long as you're about to explode. And I thought just the imagery of that with Jesus descending from heaven to earth. Well, and he quotes this. I want to read it because he quoted Philippians 2, Dr. Ward did, your attitudes should be the same as that of Christ Jesus who being in very nature, God did not consider equality because something to be grasped but made himself nothing. There's that descent into humanity, right? Taking the very nature of a servant be made in human likeness, being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself, became obedient to death, even death on a cross. There's the utter descent. So now he is come here. He came here and suffered, was persecuted, was mocked, was ridiculed and then was crucified. Therefore, and here's the ascent, God exalted him to the highest place gave in the name that is above every name that the name of Jesus every nation bow and heaven and under the earth. And so there you see the ascent. So he made the point that that's why we understand, that's why I Lewis understood this idea that unless you understand who you are and then understand who you really are, you'll never understand who you could be and you can only find that in Christ. Which I thought was a very powerful analogy. Yeah. It causes it to bitter sweet. It's the bitter sweet. It's the essence of the conversion experience too that kind of goes along with that because it's not all roses. You know, he mentions in the great divorce, the man that had the lizard lust on his shoulder and when he saved his face shown with tears, but if they had been only the liquid love and brightness, one cannot distinguish them in that country that flowed from him or in the hideous strength Jane Sol has remade amidst the kind of splendor or sorrow or both or then you got used to this when he was transformed into a dragon can only become a boy again when the painful claws of Aslan kind of penetrate his armor and peeling back to bring him back to who he really is. And so you think about some of these really powerful quotes and one of my favorite quotes from the Narnia books was whenever Aslan, he's revealed as a lion, the great lion and Susan says, oh, I thought he was a man. Is he quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion. Safe, Mr. Beaver said, who said anything about safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good. He's a king, I tell you. And I love the way that he writes in the paints that picture of who Christ is because a lot of times in our culture, I've used this in many, many, many sermons to talk about the sovereignty of Christ that Christ is not a cosmic bell hop. Christ is not simply, you know, the character petting the lamb or how the kids around him Christ is a lion from the tribe of Judah and he's not safe, but he is good. And so you get that picture of the Aslan has claws and those claws will enter into you and they will rip your shell off to restore you back to something good. And so that to me is one of the most powerful things about Christianity. He mentioned a letter that he wrote to somebody who had became a Christian and it was like congratulations in Mike and Dolan's or something to that effect. My Commissarment. Yeah. Yeah. It's hilarious. But I thought, you know, that's such an honest way of portraying conversion that so often what we tell people in the church is because we're trying to sell them or like come to Jesus and everything's going to be better than it's ever been. And my experience with coming to Christ has been a very painful experience, almost like that song that the Shane sing slay me. You know what I mean? It hasn't been roses, but it's been very rewarding because I am becoming who Christ has called me to be. I'm getting to participate in his story, which is the beautiful part of what we're invited into. Be sure and stand up and take the course with us for free at unashamedforhillsdale.com. I do think that's true, Zach. And when you were saying that, I was thinking about mom. When I tell the family story, when I'm out on the road, I talk about when she came to Christ, it was totally out of desperation. She was in descent. And then the utter descent was the life she was living with my dad. And her ascent was to come to Christ because she was so alone and abandoned. Like, and she had three boys and she's like, what am I going to do? That's how she came to Christ. And of course, personally on the inside, man, it was such a relief because now she realized she wasn't alone no matter what happened with dad. The problem was her life got way worse because now, Dad, we already had a problem with her and it was always accused and never being unfaithful and all this stuff because he was being unfaithful. And now, it's like, oh, now you're like misbeliever, misg goody two shoes and you got your church friends and blah, blah, blah. So I just, you know, me as a kid just remember an argument's in the fights. He used her faith now as a cudgel and he just bludgeoned her with it. And so here was the one thing she had found some security in Christ, but that was being used against her in her life. And that went home for like a full year before he finally kicked us out. So to your point, Zach, of talking about Christianity doesn't, I mean, sometimes it remains better sweet. I mean, yeah, how many times of people around the world and you go to different countries where you make a decision for Christ, you're bringing a world or hurt on yourself. You have the security of known who Christ is. And your family and your family because now you're gonna face because of some other religious group or whatever. You're gonna face the worst persecution you've ever faced. And yet is it worth it? So you let the B shape template of down, the way he categorizes Dr. Ward is it down further, up, up further. And that is the Roman six passage that Paul talks about when it talks about our coming to Christ and baptism that we go down. Like there is an old man that goes down and down even further and then raised up and then raised up even further to live that new life through sanctification and ultimately our glorification when the kingdom of heaven comes back down. He out-eyed another one, then something, then the kingdom comes down to Medes, which I think Louis kind of hits on in the great divorce because he paints a really good picture of that. But when you think about like his coming to Christ, I love another lane, it says, take it on its own terms is what they encouraged him. And I think Louis said this, it's the language when you understand the story of Christ, it's the language that's more adequate than any other. And there's another quote that I looked up that I remembered from Louis that kind of goes in the same vein of this. And I may have butchered this because I actually quoted it from memory that I believe in the sun, not because I can see it, but buy it or through it, I can see everything else. And so his understanding of Christianity was that it was what illuminated the world for him. So he doesn't believe in it because he can see it. He believes in it because through it, he can see everything else. And to me, that is how he talks about the myth. The job catch that by the way when it said he believed in kind of moved from more of the cognitive, he moved from just assessing Christianity as a set of rational beliefs and cognitive beliefs that he would acquire and moved into approaching it more as a myth. I don't know if y'all caught on that. Now in fact, one gentleman was told a minute ago about how he wouldn't be popular in today's culture. That was another line I was thinking. If you said Christianity is a myth, you would immediately be rejected as a cook. But the way he described it, I thought, well, no, he's right. You'll say something like I said, if I were introduced in Christianity, I said, there you go, Christian, the man, the myth, the legend, you would take that as a compliment because I'm saying, you know, this is a guy that everybody knows about. Well, that's what he's talking about with Christian Anity, the idea, it's a myth, it just happens to be true. It happens to be true people in a real world versus paganism. But the minute you said that, you'd be rejected. Yeah. If you said, there's, they're giving away free GMC pickup trucks down there at the Chevy place and somebody said, oh, it's a myth. That means it's not true. That's right. But that's not how Lewis is approaching it. Well, there's actually, because I just heard this from a Christian apologist, he was, they were arguing with this other guy. And the other guy was saying that Christianity's not true because it was taken from all of these other more ancient myths. Like the writers of Christianity, like took all these examples from earlier religions and kind of morphed them all together to be Christian, to be Jesus and to be Christianity. And CSOs actually believe, like specifically believes that is the case, that Christ represents and fulfills earlier myths, but that we have the earlier myths because that was God working to get us to Christianity. And which is, you can believe that or not believe that, but specifically CS Lewis thought that earlier myths did point to Christ and was very similar to Christ because that's how God was working. So he can't take a different approach on it. But I just heard another well-known Christian apologist who I respect, I'll still love his stuff. Disagree with that point. Well, and thing about it is, generally, that's not so crazy because the whole Old Testament is full of symbolism pointing to Jesus. That's not really him, but then once it happened, everybody says, oh yeah, that's why you had this game go. Oh yeah, that's why you had the last time. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a good point because even like with the temple stuff, and when we had Dr. Jackson on the podcast, and he had mentioned on the podcast that there were earlier iterations of the temple that preceded the tabernacle that was constructed. This is on our Exodus study that preceded Moses building the tabernacle. And he's like, they all had similar structure and that perhaps, by the way, if you want to take the course with a sign up, you can take the course free at unashamedprohills.com and you can go back and listen to the Exodus one and the one where it now, which is CS Lewis. But when Dr. Jackson was talking about these other temples that preceded the one that was built by, or instructed by Moses, and then the one built by Solomon as well, what, what he said, there were similarities and that it's very likely people could say, well, did they just bar, barring from old other temple structures, but the point that I've read from Dr. Biel and his book on the temple is that all of these temples, the ones that preceded the tabernacle and the temple that the Solomon built, they were all predicated on, guess what, the Garden of Eden, the original temple. So what you actually see in the early myths and the early temple structures and the early stories that they're all reflected, they all came from somewhere and they all have a common origin and that common origin is the Genesis story. And so I think this certainly can be true of these myths, but what he, the way he distinguishes it, he says a myth doesn't mean false. It's historical, but it is a story and it's a real story. And so he says, yes, Lewis came to believe in the myth as the true myth. This is the true one. This is the one that's true. Real people really advance, exactly. I have a really quick question. I know we're almost out of time, but I got this, I'm gonna preface, I got this question right on the quiz simply because I put all the above, because most of the time that's probably your best bet, but I learned a lot of that crisis. What are the answers was, and this confused me, but this was Dr. Ward talking about something that C.S. Lewis was saying that we must sometimes be deceived in order to pursue what is truly good, which is a great quote, and I know we're almost out of time, but what is that? What is he necessarily, like, what is he saying? Well, that's the quick answer was what he had said before of that the idea is, unless you're uncomfortable, in other words, unless something happens to change your worldview, which is how he put that to seat, you'll never seek anything more. In other words, you'll just continue on the path you've always been. I mean, that's what I took that to mean in that question, because I wasn't sure either exactly, but then I took that idea by, if I'm not dismayed in where I am without God, in other words, if something doesn't happen to propel you to ask more questions and to see. So if I'm not deceived in the sense that if I'm not willing to be tricked or whatever word you want to use, what do you just tell him to be parables? Seeking to find knock the door to be up and dry. That makes sense, because I was really confused at what he was talking about. And there's several of those words that are like that. So we're out of time. Man, what a great study this is turning out to be. I'm loving it. I hope you guys are taking it along with us. It's free. Take it with us. Read the books. You're going to be exposed to some great stuff with CS Lewis. We'll see you next time on Hillsdale on a shame. And next time you see us, Al's teeth will be wider. Wider. I don't know if it'll be shined. There they are. Yeah, let's get a before and after pick. We'll put that in the next thumbnail. Yeah, that'll be the thumbnail picture. And then we'll put size in there. Uh huh. Hi guys. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy Power by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to UnashamedForHillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's UnashamedForHillsdale.com. And don't miss an episode of The Unashamed Podcast by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.