LimeWire: Steal this podcast

If it's the year 2000, I have an app to tell you about. It's this one app that you've downloaded on your computer and you can access every song that has ever been recorded anywhere, all without hanging a dime. No, to be clear, I'm not talking about an app store. An app store is in the middle of being sued absolutely out of existence. I'm talking about an app called LimeWire. And LimeWire is going to fix what went wrong for an app store. From the Virginbox Media, this is version history, a show about the best and worst and strangest and most important products in tech history. And today, we are talking about the very, very end of a file share. Until now, mobile phone companies have worked very hard to ensure their phones do not start fires. But we found one company that dared to go in a different direction and make a phone with fire starting as a feature. On the VRTCHAS, we talk about all the greatest and weirdest phone concepts from mobile world congress in Barcelona, plus after years of legal battles, Google and Netflix are now best buddies, contractually obligated to not say mean things about their app stores anymore. That's this week on the VRTCHAS, wherever you get your podcast. When is the AI bubble going to burst? How do you AI proof your job? How should colleges handle AI and prepare students for a shifting job market? I'm Henry Blodgett and on my show Solutions, I've been exploring all of those questions and more with experts who have actual answers. We hear enough about our problems. Let's solve them. Follow Solutions with Henry Blodgett. All right, we're back. Let's pirate some stuff. Need to let me tell this here. Hello. Sarah John. Also here. Hi. Let's just talk about our own experiences here. I was all pirated as song or two in our day. Were you where I feel like there's like the naps for kids, there's the kazah kids, there's the lime wire kids, and then there's like the kids who don't know. Is that like a fair delineation of the generations? Would you say? No, the kids who don't know are just the touring kids. Oh, that's fair. Well, there's the touring kids and then there's like the Spotify kids and they're the kids who don't know. But you're right, the touring kids belong in there, right at the end. Yeah. But still, they're still around. I wouldn't discuss that. I wouldn't call the kids anymore. But yeah, like the the touring parents at this point really are. Are touring adults like Disney adults? Like you kind of grow up and a lot of people grow out of it, but you didn't and that's nice. Yeah, to be clear, David, I've never pirated anything in my life. Well, short. But yes, I know quite a lot about all of these programs like purely academically. Of course. Yeah, you study them for journalism. Yes. That's beautiful. So what were you? What was your era? It was Morpheus. It was like SoulSeek. It was a kind of remember limo, but it wasn't really there so much towards the end. And then it was like DC plus plus was the really big one by the time I hit hit college. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Neil, I was yours. I'm going to just sound like an ancient was your 71 years old. We should just we should just say that. There's a reasonable case to be made that the entire verge exists because of software piracy in Napster and live wire because that's what radicalized me. Like, I am the kid who was a freshman in college writing furious, like sent to the entire school emails addressed to Greg Jackson, the director of IT services about traffic shaping the network so we couldn't run Napster. That was me. I feel bad for director Jackson. I don't know what I don't know what's become of him, but he received a lot of emails from me. And that's it just sent me to law school because I was fully righteous about it. I didn't know what I was doing in those emails. I want to be clear. I was just sighting case law that I didn't know idea even what was happening. And then I ended up at the end of all that working a tiny law firm in Chicago defending college kids who were getting sued by the recording industry for using Kaza. Okay. And that was so, so crushing that I turned to blogging. So you were a baby lawyer in the Kaza universe. Yeah. Okay. Oh, that's old. You're old. It's not great. It's not a, it's like now it's at a time it was very cool and like a tip job. And now it's like, oh, you're like, are you okay? How did you do that? I've sat in the stash of a tent. Like, it's bad. Were you Sarah, just were you like you were studying some of the other side of this stuff while you were also hiring? I'm part of, I mean, part of what I went to law school was same reason as, as Nila. I was like, this was also a radicalizing moment for me. Like I was like, this doesn't make any sense. Like the internet is infinitely replicable. Information is now infinitely replicable. Why is it that we're sort of stuck in why are we bogged down by copyright law? This doesn't make any sense to me. And then I went to school. I studied a whole bunch of shit and including copyright. And then I came out of it for various reasons, a broken person. And now I'm in digital media. Like it's a, it's not great. It's a real similar, it's a real similar trajectory. My radicalizing moment was not defending kids with, because there was definitely, there was a lawsuit I saw where I was just like, I don't like this. I don't, I don't like any of this. It's a long story. And I'll tell you about that lawsuit another time. But like, yeah, there's like, it is, when you see sort of how copyright especially when you see the law interact with technology and interact with the internet, there's like a story about humanity to be told there that like, yeah, this sort of for a certain kind of brain, the obvious pivot is journalism. So okay, so let's, let's like anchor ourselves in time here a little bit because the line-wire story sort of starts in 2000, which is if I'm doing my timeline math correctly here is while the Napster fight is ongoing, right? Is it like we're stealing the middle of sort of the first version of this. I believe Napster was 98, 97, 98 something like that. In there, 99. Yeah, I think like one of the subnal cases is 99. Like yeah, when decisions comes down in there, 99, something. Yeah, so Napster goes away basically, loses this thing, goes away. And yeah, I mean, fair. Yeah, Napster never really went away, but it stopped being Napster. And then in its wake come just a million other surfaces. Again, with names like the ones you mentioned, we get the Kizaz of the world and Morpheus and like a hundred others that I had forgotten that I used every single one of is a thing that I discovered. I've used all of these services at one point or another all to download like factory boy songs, but that's neither hint or there. So Limeware ended up being like by a mile the most popular of them, which I did not realize until researching for the subset. But anyway, so back to the beginning, the story starts in 2000 with this guy named Mark Gorton, who is a Wall Street guy. He like ran a hedge fund. He was a high speed trading guy. He ran a thing called, I think it was called like the Lyme brokerage that was doing high speed trading. And then like when Napster goes away, pivots to file sharing, which is odd. But he's like not a music guy. He's a Wall Street guy. He's a hedge fund dude. At the same time, he's also working on like open source government software. He's a big advocate for more bike lanes in New York City. Like sure. And I'm having a weird dalliance with RFK later like we don't need to talk about Mark Gorton too much. Wait. When you say dalliance. Wait. Romantic? Like, when they send each other text messages. They're not sending each other text messages. We're going to cut that out. That one's just for us. I mean, I censored myself. I mean, I censored myself. I censored myself. I didn't. And I went with Mark Gorton. He raised some money for RFK. We don't need to talk too much about Mark Gorton. There was LimeWire, which was a file sharing service. It looked like all the other file sharing services. It was for file sharing. But at the very beginning, he also had this idea about this thing called LimeWire Pro. And their big idea was you could pay $22 every six months for a nebulous set of extra features. They said it was like better search results. You'd get faster downloads. And the pitch was like we are going to legitimize this project and make some money out of it. Let's see why the high speed trading guy was drawn to file sharing. No, connect that for me. I mean, all Wall Street is is buying low and selling high and then treating things like commodities and saying I will take this for free and sell it for some money and make the exchange. I mean, if you just look at it that way, right? Like I'm going to take this stuff that's free and then at some level, every transaction I will take a cut. And if I can be the one to move it around, that's their sub. Yeah. It's kind of like there is a moment. I think it's important to remember at this time, the music industry was riding as high as it has ever written in history. Like it was just making more money than ever. Then maybe it ever will again, but then it ever had it in past. The CD was out. And it's like all these huge bands were just being like created. I think there's that one guy in Orlando that was just like, I make boy bands and you just like manufactured them all in absolutely cultural dominance. And so taking from them did not feel bad in a way that like spotifies relationships with artists today feels bad. Yeah. I think this is the original like Wall Street vets to Dogecoin pivot, right? Like where it's like, yeah, yeah, this is this is that that sort of there is there is a weird analogy between the financial system and file sharing. It's very yeah. Yeah. I can just peel off some pennies on the back of this machine. I'll be rich and you'll be fine. It's right there. Did that feeling increase after Napster, this sense of like the music industry in the RAA is like the big bad guy that yeah, because they started stealing from it. Screw them. We can see it right. Right. Like they just did the worst thing they could do. They were successful, but they were like, yeah, we're the bad guys. Yeah, I actually like disagree with you about that narrative. I mean, yes, they turned into the bad guys for a certain segment like for you, for me, like for a certain generation. And then like there's a cut off where suddenly people like, oh, yeah, I feel kind of bad about stealing from artists. It's like it actually, I think the propaganda worked. Like getting it worked. I think that we all talk about file sharing now as though it's a bad thing and we know it's a bad thing. And like I think that the RAA succeeded in turning file sharing into something that you're not supposed to admit you do. Like it is even in the sense that like as you're sitting there doing it, you sort of know you're doing something you shouldn't. Like you're smoking weed, like at the back of your church, parking lot or whatever, right? Like it's like it's like it's like that's what makes it cool. Right. That's what makes it cool, but it's also like something you kind of you hide. It's something you hide even though you know everyone does it. And before then people are just doing it. And you didn't care. You didn't care about talking about it. Like, I don't know. Like if you like look up what were the most popular file sharing programs, right? Unread it. Like you'll see a thread from two years ago where the very top response is nice, nice try FBI. And there's a, and I don't think that we'd be talking about that like in 2000 or whatever we just say, oh yeah. I like I make big tapes for my girlfriend. Like right. Right. Well, I think this is this is part of why I find lime wire so interesting is like from the very beginning, I think they are trying to figure out a way to kind of have their cake and eat it too on that front where they're like, okay, we understand what peer-to-peer file sharing is used for. And it's certainly true that there are lots of things you can do on a service like this that aren't share music, but that's what everybody does. So they come up with this idea. I found this great quote from a New York Times story in 2010 where it's talking he's sort of reminiscing at the end of lime wire about lime wire. And he says this is just a line from the story. Back in 2000 when Mr. Gordon jumped into the peer-to-peer network business with lime wire, he envisioned it growing into a popular service for commerce. He said users could search the network for a new television set, for example, and get results from retailers across the country. Like a what? How? Yeah. He's just subscribing the internet. I don't know. It doesn't make any sense. But again, there's like, there is this clear idea here that if we can figure out how to make this thing a business, it will sort of definitionally be legitimate. And I just find that so fascinating. And he's like, we can do all of this stuff on top of piracy. But as long as we do it in a way that feels legitimate and upstanding and makes everybody money, a, I'm going to get rich and b, people are going to take us seriously. And it like almost it almost worked. And it's just so fascinating. So anyway, so the it's a Java app that you had to like, you had to have a separate installer for it was a mess. So this app was like, not great, but it was better than everything else. This is my main memory of LimeWire. It's like, we came out of Napster and we came out of Kazaah. And then all of a sudden, there were like nice looking file sharing apps for the first time ever. And they weren't good, but they didn't have a million ads or at least, you know, they had half a million ads and some of a million ads. They were a little faster. They were a little easier to use. And they had like, it looks like a designer had looked at it. Which like no one would ever say that about that first run of file sharing apps. I recall Napster being very clean. It was very straightforward, but it was very, it was like a file system. Like it just didn't, it was all I wanted. I just wanted to look at your file system and take the music that you're writing. And for that, like it worked fine. But I think we're also at the point now where like this stuff is so unbelievably mainstream, like everyone is doing it. But I found a stat that said at some point, I've seen numbers between 16% and 18% of computers ran LimeWire at one point. Like that's that's there. It was everywhere. And a lot of that is because like a lot of people at computers were like college students who were writing music. And like, but still it was like this stuff was so unbelievably mainstream that they were starting to think about it like properly as a product. But also our buddy Mark Gordon did a bunch of deeply shady stuff to try and make money. For a long time, for I think like four or five years, if you downloaded LimeWire, you also downloaded an app called LimeShop. And LimeShop was one of those things that would monitor your online purchases and insert itself as the affiliate code. Yeah. And just steal the money for LimeWire. It's just straight up like there was the big honey scandal with all the creators. It was just that two decades earlier. It's really a pioneer. Seriously. And it was like this, they just straight up installed official spyware on your computer every time you downloaded it. And if you uninstall LimeWire, you didn't uninstall LimeShop. Neelah, you sent me a CNET review right before we started recording this of, I think it was called LimeWire Basic, which came out a few years later. And one of the things they're very happy about is that when you uninstall LimeWire, only 15 megabytes of stuff is left on your computer. It just says something about like what were expected from a file sharing. It's also wild, right? We were talking at a point in time when the mainstream tech websites and publications were like, we will review a file sharing app. Yeah. No one today is reviewing Bitcoin clients. It's just not happening that way anymore. We should start. We should. But yeah, it was like this stuff was, this was the good version of this. Which does something like that? The bar was so low. Yeah. I want to point out that in particular for Mac users, but also just as a whole product, LimeWire was junk. Like top to bottom junk. Oh, yeah. They didn't even invent the underlying protocol. They were hijacking an open source protocol called Nutella, which was spelled at the GNU. Because that's the name of the license. So it's called Nutella. And as I ran on this open protocol and the app was like a garbage Java app that ran like dog shit on basically every computer. But it looked nice. Or it didn't. This is the time for Mac users when apps that don't look like Mac apps are just not allowed. Right. There's like religious fervor about Mac apps looking like Mac apps on OS or Aqua, whatever it's called, when the I'm at command, it changed all the buttons. Like there's just a lot of religious fervor. And this thing was just like this garbage Java app that ran so slow based on a protocol that anyone could build a client for and it installed a bunch of spyware on your computer. And then somehow the bar was so low that it became the success. Yeah. This was like a huge improvement because it wasn't like Kaza which would just open 100,000 ads on your computer every time you did anything. And so I think I was thinking about this again, like in the context of like me all these years ago thinking about this stuff. And I remember there was this long running worry that people had about like, oh, you're going to download a corrupted file if you go through Limewire or whatever and it's going to take over your computer and cause you all kind of trouble. And there was a bunch of that and I have some fun examples of that that happened. But also just downloading the app was the spyware. It's like I wonder how many people started being bombarded with apps and being like, oh, I must have downloaded a bad music file. And it's like, no, you just downloaded Kaza. You did that to yourself at the very beginning here. But this is the same of things. Like there was a bunch of shady stuff going on and all these companies were like desperately trying to figure out how to make money. And what I've been trying to figure out this whole time and I still don't have a great answer is if if you're Mark Gordon and you're in the year 2000, are you thinking either I can do this properly and make it huge or are you thinking like there is a limit here? This is a hugely mainstream activity that is going to be absolutely adjudicated out of existence and I'm just going to get while the get is good. And I would say everything about Limewire suggests that that's how he felt about it, that he was just like, there's some money in this and I'm going to get it while I can. But everything he said about the product was like, I have a long road map for this. Peer to peer doesn't have to be bad. There's a lot we can do. I have big ideas for Limewire. And it's like, I would just, I would love to get Mark drunk and ask him. Like, did you really think this was actually going to work? But for a while, it did work. Because as late as 2006, the biggest numbers I saw that came up in some of the court filings were that it was making $20 million a year, which is not earth shattering amounts of money, but it's for a file sharing service. It's not nothing. Like that's, you can run a business on $20 million a year. Especially when the open source community is writing the underlying credit call that makes your thing go. And when you're still running your hedge fund on the side. As a side project for Mark Gordon, it's a pretty good one. So this chug's long for a while. And then in like right in the middle of Limewire's ascent, the Groxter court case happens. So just to give you guys a sense of like the feelings at the time, we made a montage of some of the coverage of the Groxter case in 2005. Let me just play this for you. It's called Groxter. Not a nice name. And it's a name that's not liked by big media. And they're trying to shut that one down too. That case is going to the Supreme Court. Tech millionaire and Dallas Maverick's owner, Mark Cuban, is throwing both his hat and his wallet into the ring with Groxter. Cuban says if the entertainment industry wins its lawsuit, then it's like saying people don't steal content software does, which is ridiculous, right? People from all over the country on both sides of this issue, the movie business, the recording industry, the high tech business, filled the courtroom, the line that's stretched out the door early this morning. People wait to get in. Obviously, it's a very significant case. The internet file sharing service Groxter agreed to shut down today. Its software was widely used to copy music and movies for free. The company halted operations to settle a landmark suit by the film and music industries. It also agreed to pay $50 million. Like I feel like if you want to pick the end of file sharing, it's this. Yes, it is. It is. That is the end of file sharing. It is the birth of copyright law as we know it today through sort of series of other things. But essentially, you're looking at in the 80s, there was a case that went to the Supreme Court about beta-max. It was about essentially taping things on VHS, whether or not you could hold the VCR manufacturer's liable for the fact that people were definitely, definitely infringing copyright by taping stuff on their home VCRs. You got out of that. The Supreme Court said, no, we're not going to hold Sony liable because, yes, people are probably infringing. But this technology is also capable of substantial non-infringing uses. People are also using their VCRs for stuff that isn't copyright infringement. You shouldn't make an entire technology illegal just because people are also infringing copyright sometimes. Right? So, this is the thing I've always wondered about this case and have never had occasion to ask you before. In the beta-max case, I forget the number they came up with. Some single digit percentage that they were like, this is the number of people who are using it for non-illegal activities. It's a really small portion. That's in the footnote. So, there's no rule where they go. Oh, if you get 10% non-infringing uses, you're all good. Okay. This is what I was going to ask. There's no legal rule. But in the footnotes, there's a strong implication that if you can get 10%, you'll be your gravy, you're good. And that's 10% doing good things. Yes. Even if 90% of people are using your thing to record SNL on their website. Right. One of the things that they were talking about actually in the decision was like, oh, so sometimes people just can't watch the sports game when it happens. They would have, but they couldn't get to their TV literally in front of their TV. So, surely it's okay to record it and then watch it later. That's known as time shifting. It's not like they're recording, like gone with the wind and then watching, like gone with wind over and over again, which that would be, oh, that looks like piracy, right? So, it's like, oh, yeah, 10% of the time. People are watching the sports game like a few hours after it aired. And surely you don't want to make an entire technology illegal when it's capable of doing that. Okay. So, we're looking at that case, right? I just want to point out, by the way, empires have risen and fallen on the back of substantial non-infringing uses. Yeah. Like, the whole tech industry is built around what on earth does substantial non-infringing uses mean? And this number that the idea that you're pointing at a number is like everyone wants it to be simple and empires have risen and fallen. In fact, it is not simple, right? It's not simple. And also, what happens is that with Groxter, that's the end. That's the end of substantial non-infringing uses. That's the same. Yeah. So, what happens with Groxter is that, so you had the substantial non-infringing uses thing. And the idea with that is there's a difference between being the pirate and being the person who enables the pirate, right? The person who makes the Xerox machine, the corporation that makes the VCRs. And there's always been sort of this thing where like, yeah, maybe you didn't do the bad job. In the copyright context, there was a very, we knew what that range of actions or forms of participation were. And then you get to the file sharing era. And when you get to the file sharing era, you're talking about peer to peer. So not an appster, but the later iterations you're looking at, it's all the kids, their computers are talking to other people's computers. And meanwhile, the people who are making the software, we're just making software. Right. We're not hosting anything. We're not doing anything. Why are we being held liable? By the way, we're running these studies that say that 30% of what's being shared is like, I don't know, like educational materials, like stuff that there was no right holder attached. So surely substantial non-infringing uses. And what you get is you go to the Supreme Court and Supreme Court goes, well, don't love this, right? And what they do is they make up a new doctrine of copyright law. So they make up a doctrine. It's called inducement. Okay. And essentially the idea is, okay, sure, yeah, you didn't host anything. But you were like, come here, come here kid, in French cop. Like right, like it's like the, and the examples that they give are kind of wild. They're the streamer opening the door to the van. It is like, it can be kind of vague a little bit in some way. So it's like the fact that they were building themselves as a certain kind of service or like, even the fact that like Groxter, like the name is stir, right? In the, like in the name, like, or that they have like a, like, a, like, a, like, a, one second. Yes. The Supreme Court was like, there's a stir in the name and that makes people think of Napster. You did it. Like it was, that's, that's in there. It's like open nap was like what, like one of the, one of the services had a thing, like a sub spin out thing called open nap. And then there were like, there were like, the way that they advertise their services to people or the fact that like certain keywords would prompt like people to, to find this application, like right? Like it, those were the things that they were pulling together. And it's like, yes, people did understand that this was Napster successor. But there was no legal theory that said you look kind of like Napster, ergo, you're illegal. This was new. It is true that this hues to the facts of what was happening at the time. But to make law out of that, it's very strange. It's a very, very strange outcome. And I think importantly, what happens is that substantial law and infringing uses goes away as a standard. Well, it's still technically the law, but it's really hard to rely on now. Like people just don't do it. Because if, even if there are substantial not infringing uses, but I'm kind of, you're making a huge issue to the bad stuff. Yeah, it's like, it doesn't matter anymore. It's like, yeah. So business is taking something for zero dollars and then trying to make some dollars. They're going to be like, yeah, it's endoos. Got it. Does it look like this thing that we obviously know is bad? Are you taking stuff for, like, and it's, it's, here we are in AI era. Yeah. And where there's like infinity lawsuits about this. And like, this is, there's a world in which meta and open AI and whoever else shows up in court and is like, substantial not infringing uses. And then there's a world in which, hey, you're, you're basically helping people steal. If, if not having stolen yourself and probably definitely having stolen yourself. In this case, there's some of these companies. Okay. And substantial not infringing uses if you think about it in this period when it's happening like you're seeing sort of the birth of Web 2.0, right? You can see how important it's about to become where it's like, oh, YouTube. Like, yeah, I'm putting up videos that don't have like any copyright attached except for maybe mine. And then also people are putting up music videos that are owned by various record labels or whatever should you, all of YouTube become illegal based on that. Like, right, like, so every single website is dealing with the substantial not infringing uses problem. As soon as substantial not infringing uses stops being a reliable standard, then people start going, oh, wait a second. There's this law called the DMCA. It's in 1999 and people, when it did, people were like, ah, this is like, you know, this is a real mixed bag of a law, but it really comes to prominence after Groxter where this one legal standard no longer something that people feel comfortable with. They go, all right, we're going to go to DMCA safe harbor. Now we're going to go hide behind safe harbor. We're going to set up our DMCA agents, notice and take down regime. And that's when Web 2.0 looks like what it looks like now. Got it. Okay. That's really interesting. Way more context or something. I read right after all this happened. There was a great, the near times had a big story right after Groxter was decided. It was the day after. And they actually called Mark Gordon at Limewire and asked him how he felt. And he was super spooked by this whole thing. And his quote was some people are saying that as long as I don't actively induce infringement, I'm okay. I don't think it'll work out that way. And he said the court handed a tool to judges that they can declare inducement whenever they want to. So this is like, they did absolutely did. Do is spooked. And I think there's a real turn here for Limewire that I think is really interesting. Because I think they started at this moment where if I'm understanding all of this correctly, the fact that the Groxter case even got to the Supreme Court was sort of surprising. Because a lot of this had like things kind of came and went before they sort of had huge overarching world shaping decisions made about them. And so I think, again, if I'm psychoanalyzing our man Mark here, there's this sense of like, okay, I can tweak the formula and I can make it work. Like I'm not going to make the Napster mistake of hosting an index of all of the stuff available on my system. I'm going to treat it differently. I'm going to treat it like a business. We're going to be a little more legit and it's going to be fine. And then this happens and he goes, oh, maybe this whole thing was just a house of cards and now it is falling down. Yeah, I think that there's this really worrisome thing happening where if you look at the Groxter oral arguments actually, people keep bringing up the iPod. And there is like this implicit understanding that the iPod is okay because it's an example of an American company making good, right? Like it's like, it is very much, you can hear the assumption in people's voices like, yeah, iPods legal, but what makes the iPod different from this? Because you don't want to make the iPod illegal. Like when, you know, just the sheer hard drive space indicates that this is for people with gigantic music libraries. Where do you get a gigantic music library? Nobody has the money for that. And yeah, so like this thing that this Wall Street bro is trying to do where he's like piggybacking off of the piracy wave into something legitimate. I gave you sort of like, you know, close one eye and like look at it like kind of blurry at the picture. You're like, oh yeah, iTunes is kind of that, right? But there was like, yeah, like even Napster thought that it was going to sort of do the pivot and make deals with the record labels. Like everyone thought that they were going to eventually go legitimate and monetize and so on and so forth, which is of course what we're hearing now from the AI company. I was like, it's like, in fringe copy right now and then make the deals later. And so pretty quickly, yeah. So I'm sort of to do basically exactly that. Actually, can I offer you just a quote of how the content industry was thinking during this whole time? Yeah. Because inducement is very important in the content industry. They do not like substantial not infringing uses. In other countries around the world, they have actually put taxes on like blank media. So if you went about a blank cassette tape or a blank CDR, the music industry would get paid. Because they were like, people are going to use that for piracy. Just the act of buying blank media should offer us a cut. The music industry went to war with Apple, trade, a cut of every iPod and they got that cut for Microsoft. Right. Resultated no money, but they got that cut. So the content industry just has this very clear view that like, this is our money. And if you mess with the money, you need to give us some of it. And so I just, here's this quote. And I'm going to, it's years and years later and it's going to sound bananas to this audience. So there's, while this is all happening, there's basically the same litigation is happening around TVO in digital PVRs. Oh, sure. Persuaded record. More or less the same reason. Right. It's a VCR, but now there's a hard drive in it. We're going to relitigate the whole thing because the technology is different. And there's one, this, this one comes out. It's called the Sonic Blue 4000 and it can automatically skip the ads. It's the stuff it can detect. Oh, yeah. And as you watch the content, it can skip them. So here's a quote from Jamie Calmer, who at the time is the chairman and CEO of the Turner Broadcasting Division of AOL Time Warner. Okay. Famous success. Turner Broadcasting Division of AOL Time Warner. Here's a quote. Here's a Jamie Calmer. He says, he says, he's in 2002. Skipping commercials is theft. Your contract with the network when you get the show is you're going to watch the spots. Otherwise you couldn't get the show on an ad supported basis. Anytime you skip a commercial, you're actually stealing programming. Good Lord. Like just that go to any young version or today and be like, is skipping commercials theft? And they're like, no, like absolutely not. But at the time, this was all one product that all these companies were selling. And so these new computer e things that could take the content and play the back in different ways or get the content from piracies because the hard drives are so big that like they it was like you were getting in the car and being like, go up. And they're like, my brain doesn't work that way. Like I don't know what you're talking about. Stealing the commercials is obviously theft. And this is the disconnect that induce themselves. So to that point, actually, let me just play you a montage we made of some of the chatter around all things music piracy at the time because the vibes are all over the place. We have South Park and then a bunch of very serious RWA people. Let me just play you this montage. You think downloading music for free is not a big deal. Downloading films is stealing. If you do it, you will face the consequences. Downloading is the only way to go. And the best thing about it is free. Downloading free. Not likely. There are egregious uploaders sharing music on the internet and the range of about 800 songs per person. Jokes out of on fighting a $675,000 fine for a legally downloading and sharing 30 songs. The Supreme Court refusing his appeal. This became such a joke that it ended up on South Park, but it also people are like dead serious about it. All right, we need to take a quick break and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about the many, many, many lawsuits that also came for live live. We're great. All right, we're back. So I want to get into the live wire dying, which happens very quickly here. But a couple of other interesting things are happening along the way here. First of all, live wire keeps doing new stuff. It started supporting BitTorrent in 2004. BitTorrent started to become a thing. Live wire really wants to do this. It also wants to message app. This was a thing in file sharing for a while. Everything app. Yeah. The way to send illegal music files directly to your friend. So it's like, it really is pushing towards this idea of wanting to be more than just a piracy app, even though it is mostly a piracy app. It's also trying to figure out if there is a way to make all of this work a little better, right after Groxter, they start thinking, okay, maybe we'll ban people from sharing licensed files. We'll just remove all of that stuff from the platform. It pisses off a bunch of its contributors so much that they leave and create frostwire, which is another pretty successful fire sharing app, basically like pirated out of lime wire because they were like, no, we don't want to go legit. We want to download music. So all of this is happening simultaneously. And then a bunch of lawsuits come for lime wire. Kind of two at once. There's one from a RISTA Records, which sues lime wire. But the big one is the RAA, which is the, it's real sort of first huge swing since Groxter comes at lime wire. And a thing I'm realizing now as I go back over this, it was all inducement. Like a huge part of this lawsuit came down to ironically lime wire's website, which when you went to limewire.com, one of the things that it said was like not, it didn't quite say come here to download illegal music for free, but it basically did. And it talked about, it talked about the search, it talked about the download speeds, it talked about all the sorting by genre, all the stuff you could find, all the music you could find, everything that was available. And it was like, it was right on the edge of being like a library full of illegal music for you to download. And which is funny, because on the one hand, it's like, well, you obviously didn't learn anything from what you're doing here with Groxter. But it was like really, really on the edge of inducement. There's a trend here that, again, plays out over and over again. There's a law. And then a bunch of tech companies come up with a technical solution to the law. So with, you know, Napster's illegal because Napster owns essential index of all the files on the network, even though the transfers are peer to peer. And then they got a business because of lawsuit. And the tech industry, which doesn't look like the tech industry of today, it looks like a bunch of people just starting companies, but like a bunch of tech people are like, okay, the law said you can't do that. What if we decentralize the index and make the protocol open source and call it Nutella for some reason? And then Groxter, line Myers built on the back of this. Groxter had a different solution to the Napster problem, right? Groxter goes up and they rule as you can't do inducement. And so what you're seeing of why I'm wearing red on the edge is yet another solution to the problem. How far can we go before it's inducement? And the only thing that they did was the calibrated wrong. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so they get caught because they went too far. And that's, this game never works. We get the end of the day. The rights holders, the United States of America are entirely too powerful. And they will be like, no, you're just telling people to steal our stuff. And the courts now have this tool that's like, yep, you sure are. And there's like nothing. There's no rational standard underneath that beyond, yep, it sure looks like that. I mean, judges also really hate when defendants are smug, right? Like that's the thing where they go, because it's like, because the defendants sitting going, what did I do? Did I do it right? And then yeah, then judges going to be like, no, this is too cute. What do you think I am? An idiot? Like no. And then often the tech industry is like, yes. Yeah. Right. And then there's all these quotes from this time that are just people like the law is can't keep up with the tech industry. And the judges are like, no, but your website's like, do you like stealing stuff? Yeah. Like it's not that hard to figure out what you're doing. Yeah. But wait, there is one other turn in this that I think is really just going to want you guys to explain this to me. So one of the things that came up in this ruling, which is at a district court in Manhattan. So going all the way back to the Grocks are thing, right? So they decide to try and figure out if there's a way to do this in a more legal way. And one of the things that Limewater does is reach out to a bunch of record labels to get basically like catalog metadata in order to figure out if they can build a filter against that catalog that would block all of these licensed songs from being shared on the service, right? Try to figure out an automated way essentially to be like, oh, I know what song that is and that can't be shared. One of the things they were hoping to do then was strike deals with all the record labels to make a paid service, right? You can sort of see the turn there, right? We're going to make it illegal to share the stuff that people are sharing and then we're going to make them pay to do it. And it's like that's the sort of the two turns he had been planning for a while, but I think that all gets accelerated after Groxter. But then the judge in this case said that because that was the plan and because they were developing this filter, it actually supported the RAA's argument that he and they knew that a huge part of Limewater was to trade and share illegal files. And so just by virtue of the fact that you were trying to solve this problem, you were acknowledging it is a problem and thus your service is illegal. I would characterize that differently. Okay. I think if you take a hostage and then demand a ransom, you are probably liable for kidnapping. You probably have a hostage. Yeah. Like that is a totally bad faith negotiation. Okay. Right. We have created the greatest threat to your business that has ever existed. Sure. We would like to legitimize it. Pray I don't alter it further. Yeah. What are you talking about? And then just to contextualize the music industry, the bottom has fallen out of the music industry by this point. Right. Like ring tones are the great hope of the music industry at this moment in time. The crazy frog is going to save the music industry, not iTunes downloads yet. Right. So people have just stopped buying music. They've stopped buying CDs, which were hugely profitable. They're not buying one dollar a song iTunes purchases at the volume necessary to replace all that revenue. And we're like, here's what we're going to do. AT&T is going to sell crazy frog for a thousand dollars per phone. Right. There's like what is going on. So like the music industry is now in dead panic and they were looking at this hostage negotiation. I mean, like, absolutely not fair. I mean, when you put it like that. And so I surprised the RAA would agree with you. At the end of this. I mean, if I become true, right? This somehow helped your team to return. Your role monster. And I think Sarah, this also goes to your point. One of the things, let me just read you a quote. This is from Mitch Bainwall, who's the RAA's CEO at the time. He thought his cleverness, he's talking about Mark Gordon. He thought with his cleverness that he could get away with it. He's the Bernie made off of internet crime, which is very good. He was thumbing his nose at the rule of law to profiteer enormously. And so I think it is there is something to the like this guy is, this is all obviously bad faith. And that's what the record labels said too, over and over. Like they reach out and they're like, oh, do you like to make a deal? And they're like, why on earth? You know, we would like you to die. And then there's just the frost wire problem. Yeah. Sure. You can maybe you can make a deal with Gordon and Lamwire. And now it costs 10 bucks a month to use Lamwire and we've created Protos Spotify. But it turns out that everyone is still doing piracy. And what we need to do is kill that to create these new business models. Right. So all of this goes for a while and in 2010, the RA by the way went after $72 trillion worth of damages in this case. What is it greater than the entire world's GDP or something like that? Yeah. Yeah. Very good. I really appreciate that from Lamwire. But so the RA wins this case in 2010. Wins and injunction and it essentially, this is the end of Lamwire. It takes a minute for it to like, like, property. Using 72 trillion dollars in damages. Who would have thought that he'd come back? So I would say they end up settling for $105 million, which I would argue from from if I'm starting with nothing and you're starting with $72 trillion and we landed $105 million. I feel like I won that negotiation. We're much closer to my number than you're number. This is the worst kind of price I've ever played. Yeah. My bid is 72. I'm going to go on the high side. I'm going to win the showcase showdown every time. $1. I'm going to see this. Which by the way, that is another wild thing about copyright law is the statutory damages. The numbers you see are, like, just they don't make any sense because they're tuned to a different reality. Yeah. Right? So it's like, you're looking at minimum, maximum statutory damages for like non-willful. You're looking at $750 to $30,000 per infringement. And then for willful, so like when you do a really bad job, it goes all the way up to $150,000 per infringement. This makes sense in a society where infringing is like, I don't know, you're pressing a bootleg record. This makes no sense in a society where you are downloading hundreds of songs, right? Like in your little college dormitory and definitely makes no sense in a society where you release software per millions of songs are getting like getting passed back and forth. So yeah, this is where you're getting greater than the whole world's GDP. Yeah, it was all just pretend. Yeah, this copyright law is maybe the only law that gets this weird, gets this absolutely wild. And it's the only law that functionally regulates the internet. Yeah, super cool. The one we just keep doing. On the damages front, you know, it doesn't make sense because the R I double A ran an entire program to stop kids from doing it if $5,000 a settlement, not $72 trillion. And all those kids were downloading thousands of such. I mean, Mark ran a hedge fund. He had money. So you got a 72T equivalent of his money to $72 trillion was me to five grand college. I mean, just a loaded gun, right? It is, it is you will pay whatever you can because we have this other gigantic number that we've calculated through this cudgel of a law. And we will like, yeah, like you bring, they bring a machine gun to every negotiation, the $72 trillion machine gun. Yeah, it's copyright. It will radicalize you. Yeah, seriously. So yeah, so fall of 2010, there's a, there's an injunction against Limeware. They do the damages trial in early 2011 and by fall of 2011, Limeware is dead. And it was like through this whole process, it was kind of starting to die. I think a lot of people sort of saw the writing on the wall and we're seeing these lawsuits. And I think the, like, the chilling effect of those $5,000 lawsuits was very real. Like it took a while, but it worked. Like I think the PR campaign that that essentially was, I think was as successful as any of these other moves, right? At least that's how I remember it. Well, I mean, other things started to happen, right? So the iTunes store existed. Steve Jobs famously did not want DRM on music for a whole variety of reasons. That led to a very different kind of file sharing because people had iPods, you could plug the iPods in your friends' computer, you could get the songs that way. This is all happening. Spotify launches 2006. Spotify launched in 2006 because the music industry in Europe was at zero. Right. And negotiating in a hostage situation, it was dead. It was just gone. And all of those labels in Europe were like, we have a lot of reasons to try something new. Because no one's going to buy it. Piracy was rampant in Europe, particularly in Sweden. And there are laws protecting pirates in Sweden in the way that hadn't really happened here. So like it was just a different, like the pirate bay, the twernsite still operates in Sweden. So Spotify just had this incentive to create this new structure. And it didn't come here for a while because the labels thought they could go back in time. Right. And all of this is happening sort of in the background of LineWire, just like meeting its final, final fate. Yeah. LineWire did, to its credit, at one point, launch a music store. It had no music, anyone wanted to listen to it, but it existed. But the biggest thing that happened in 2011 is that Spotify launched in the US. And that's when it all just flipped. And it was like, that's the time all of a sudden. And I remember having these conversations where it was like, all of a sudden you could just listen to all the music that you wanted. Yeah. And then Spotify was just the game. Yeah, it was like it was over. It was over. You have to be easier than Piracy thing was like it finally was. It was just true. It turned out to be true, like which, I don't know. I mean, there's a whole set of arguments to me about whether or not Spotify costs the right amount of money, whether they're paying artists enough. But the sort of basic contention of people wanted to listen to music on their devices and not be tied down to records, CDs, or their computers. They just wanted to something a little more portable. It turned out to be true. Yeah. So two quotas to the LineWire story. And then we're going to move on and do the version history questions here. The LineWire has been through a bunch of weird lives for a while. It was like a couple of LineWire employees bought the domain name and redirected it to a different file sharing service for a while, which that was great, funny. More recently it was revived as an NFT project, which is gross and also feels right. It's exactly right. Yeah. But then I looked at the website today and it is, it's a file sharing website. Like if you go to LineWire.com it just looks like re-transfer. Which is very weird. But it is also a crypto token. Yeah. Also perfect. But the reason I find this company fascinating and the reason I want to talk about it is it really does feel like there's a certain version of this story that I think starts with Napster. And I think it ends with LineWire. Like it is the last one to be sort of sued out of insane existence by the RAA in this way such that like it ended right at the moment. This other version of the music industry is starting to appear and we just kind of never looked back. I mean I agree with that. I don't think that those things are independent of each other. Okay. Napster and LineWire destroyed a version of the music industry. It just brought it to a net. Yeah. Like the music industry is riding high. They're like, would you like another Britney Spears? We manufactured one in Orlando. And they just did. They were just able to do it. V was a dominant cultural force. So much money was in a monoculture of music. There was just a vast array of artists who were making medium good livings in a way that kind of doesn't exist now. Artists were able to do things like claim they weren't going to sell out because they were just making enough money. And now it's like every artist already has a brand integration in their first single. That's weird. But it's because the music has been totally devalued by all of the systems that came after Napster, after LineWire. And so there was a moment when what people were buying was music. There was a moment when there was just like economic value attributed to a song. And these companies just took that to zero. Yeah. Now these songs are worth zero because you can get them for free. And the music industry had to basically recreate a business model. And a lot of business model is like, yep, we're going to give you 0.001511. And tokens for listen or whatever it is, the artists. And the artists are going to figure out that they have to basically live on tour. And they have to write the songs in her tell room. So songs are going to be really, really short. So you get more listens. We're going to do brand integrations all day and all night because that's where the revenue is going to be. And something very big changed in the culture when you took the value of a song to zero dollars. Yeah. No, I think that's right. And it is like we spent then like a decade of breaking it. And then the next decade was rebuilding it again in a totally different image. I like, okay, I'm actually going to challenge that. I don't think it was these companies. I mean, yes, these companies made money off of it. But I think that this technology would have existed regardless. I think that the peer to peer, like, I mean, Nutella, Nutella, I don't know. I think that all of that stuff was going to get written. I think all of it was going to get distributed. And I think that the piracy was going to happen. And what happened, like we see the massive amounts of piracy coming through these programs like lime wire built by Wall Street Bros who are taking a cut off of the piracy. It's because like the interface is a bit slicker, bit nicer than whatever you're going to spin up through open source means or whatever, right? But I think that if you strip all of the capitalism out of it, this big technological shift was going to kill music. It was just going to kill the music industry. And yeah, like there is this thing where you like step back and go, was that necessarily a good thing? Maybe not, but I think that it was going to happen. I think that it was going to happen. And at least the R.I. double A got their little cut of what would have been $72 trillion in poll. They made $72 trillion. Yeah. I mean, I just wonder if they would have built more, they wouldn't have. But the systems we saw show up in other countries where your internet access came with a like a content fee that was paid to the culture companies, right? That was paid to Hollywood and the labels that existed in other places. The thing where the blank media had attacks, it showed up the United States and then this just wiped that conversation out because who cares about blank media within this. We have we have privatized collection societies now is what we have. So it's like in other countries, it's known as like a collection society or like a tax or something, right, or a culture tax or whatever. And the idea is let's just take a lot of money out of the group of people because clearly culture is a shared common good. And then we will take that money and divide it up among artists who are creating the shared good, right? Somehow that makes a little bit of sense, right? Sure. So we leave America for like five seconds, you go, okay, socialism, maybe that's okay, right? But in America, you can't talk about that. And instead what we have is we have we have Spotify, we have Netflix, we have Amazon, what's the Kindle one, Kindle unlimited, right? Sure. These are all collections of societies. They're taking a big pot of money from people and then dividing it up between artists. It is the same thing, but we've privatized it. And because we've privatized it, there's like there's no democratic consensus around it. There's no governance, no oversight. We have no input. And so we've just got the worst of both worlds. And that's America in so many different ways. I will point out that one difference about maybe America and looking at the systems there, particularly when it comes to culture, they are all on guard against American culture, really dominating their societies. So they're like, we have to make sure we prop up Canadian radio. Like propping up Canadian radio is the most important issue in Canadian culture. So they build entire systems to fund Canadian artists and make sure their radio stations play Canadian bands. Because otherwise just a flood of cheap American culture would like take over. This is sure not all these countries around the world. So like there's a little bit of like shared common good. There's also just a little bit of like boy, it would be great to have some artists from America. Or it would be great to not be America. I mean, it's like, there's that internet post that's like congratulations. Like we'll continue to be your portrait of Dorian Gray and the addicts like right? Like it's a yeah. Yeah. All right, we need to take one more break. And then let's get to the version history questions, which are going to be particularly weird in the semester. We'll grab that. All right, we're back. So we do the same eight questions for everything we talk about on version history. Let's start with the first question. What was the best thing about live wire? Not applicable. I mean, this is sort of the unique one. The first two questions are the best thing and the worst thing and it's just all the free music. I love applying those questions to this episode. It's just such a disaster because the first three questions are all in applicable. Question number three. All right, we're going to skip the first two because the best thing in the worst thing is free music. It's free music. The best thing is copyright infringement. The worst thing is copyright infringement. Let's get to number three. Number three, I have a thing I would like to pause it. Question number three is, would live wire have been a bigger hit if Apple made it? And this is my favorite alternate future thing we have debated in a long time, which is what if instead of doing iTunes, Apple did file sharing? What if Apple decided not to be legit, decided, you know, screw this, we're going to make the iPod and we're going to make a file sharing system and you're going to love it. And I have a theory I would like to pause it, which is that Apple could have done a very good thing for the file sharing world, which is make it not terrifying. Like a thing that I kept coming up with over and over in file sharing and in researching for this episode is that like there was not just this latent sense that you're doing something wrong every time you open up a file sharing app, but that you might destroy your computer or do something horrible or cause some kind of mistake. I found this one thing, there was a 2007 case and the DOJ arrested a guy named Gregory Thomas Kupeloff who was using live wire to basically scour other people's computers for personal information. Because when you set up live wire, a really easy mistake to make was to give it access to every single file anywhere on your computer. And so lots of people were just like inadvertently uploading and making available all of their personal data everywhere on their computer to anyone who was looking for it. So you could just poke around the file system of people's computers. And so this guy was basically going into people's live wire libraries of files that were just on their computer, finding credit card information. And he spent $73,000 worth of other people's money that he found on live wire and ended up pleading guilty and was sentenced to I think four years in prison. Then there was another one, this huge data breach in 2008 that happened because somebody had a financial firm like got on live wire again, bad configuration ended up 2008. 2008. This is like the at the end of live wire and ends up exposing the names and information of a bunch of like high powered people, including Supreme Court justice, Steven Breyer, who gets embroiled in this. And this is just a thing that happened over and over again that like a, every time you open live wire or any other file sharing network, you run the risk of downloading malware or doing something problematic to your computer. And B, there are all these other flaws in the system that could cause you huge problems. And to me, I'm like, you know what would be sick is the Apple file sharing network that just solves these problems and is only for pirated reasons. So there, this is very different now. Apple has vastly more scale in their good security in the ways they're good at security. At the time, like a core problem here is that no one had pondered what if we put all the computers on a network together? Really? It just hadn't come up. That is true. Right. They're like, here's what we're going to do. We're going to give you a modem and then this one application America online will just do all the internet stuff. Right. That'll do the connectivity. And then you'll quit. And then that application will not touch the rest of your computer. And then we got to this place where it's like, okay, here's Windows. Not very secure. What if it was online? And like just no one had ever thought this through. Right. And so you run and know this stuff. It's like, I've exposed my entire local file system to everyone. And then when we're looking, yeah, because like the operating system has never contemplated this possibility. And so Apple at this time is just running around being like, we're so much more secure than Windows. Like at every opportunity to like, you know, it doesn't have viruses as the Mac. You know, it doesn't have these problems as the Mac. And the response every single time was because no one has a Mac. Right. You don't have any market share. You don't have any build a virus for you. Like no one cares about your shit, dude. And so like all these apps like don't have this problem on the Mac because they just haven't figured out how to do it. And by the time Apple comes up, they're like, someone has like, oh, these computers are going to be on the network. Someone should think about that. It's me. Hey Steve, we're going to put all the computers on the network. Yeah. So you're saying yes, Apple definitely could have made it. I'm saying they would have, they were, they would have like OS 9 would have died in like a massive ways that they tried to do this. They were not ready for this. Okay. New idea. We're just going to network all the iPods directly. And I can just listen to your iPods. Firewire cable, firewire cable. Yeah. That would have worked. All right. Cool. So we figured it out. I love it. Question number four, if you could go back and make it yourself, what would you do differently? I'm installing you at the beginning of line wire as CEO. We work for Mark because he runs the hedge fund. I was sold it faster. Like right, like I would flip, I would flip the shit that he sat. Like it's like he waited too long. He should have seen the writing on the wall. Like get, get out, get up and buying it. Microsoft. Every like this, like this is a time of desperate added to play as for sure. Whatever. Yes. I would have started the company in Sweden. It's beyond us. Okay. Let's go for them shopping. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. You can't get me. If you're doing hacks, right? You're like, I de-centralize the index. You can't get me, like you can't get me because I'm literally in Sweden. I mean, we still got those guys. Okay. Question number five, what feature of line wire should every current music app or platform have? My feature is I still think, this is a piracy thing in general. The thing where you could go look at all the music somebody else had on their computer was awesome. And I want more of that. I want to be able to snoop on people's music libraries again. Yeah. I want to come back. I'm deeply embarrassed of my own music library, but like, there was a time where the whole ideal was, look at other people's music. That was a fun period. Because you get to show off your collection, but not only that, there was like tribalism based on how you did your file names, right? Oh, it's the same. Because like not everyone had the same format for file names. And some people liked to have the album name in there, but other people liked to put the album name in the file structure. And then, but sometimes you'd have artist, album name, song name, something to adjust the song name. And then it would be nest inside the thing. I don't know. We should bring that tribalism back. I remember when I was going through, you would find somebody who had like done all of the metadata really cleanly. And then you'd be like, I'm going to go look at all of their music. I know. I know. I know. I know. I'm not prioritizing this stranger's music because they did all the tags correctly. Yeah. And me like, you were this person for sure. 100%. That's on which utilities are the best, on batch changing tags. What was the order of the file name? It was artist, album, title, song title. Okay. That was very important to me. Yeah, I believe that. But this by the end, the file names were immaterial to the ID3 tags. Right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. By the end, yes. But like the folder structure was artist, album, song titles. So the file name was just a song title, but you understand, David, the metadata was retained at the beginning of the song title. No, because it was all in the tags, bro. It's all in the tags, bro. Like iTunes updates would have support for new kinds of tags. Right. And this was like a very big deal. When the tags became good was, it was game changing. It was wonderful. It was great. I remember when I was spending alarming amounts of time reorganizing music inside of my iTunes library. It was quite a lot of time spent doing that. It had a lot of energy and investment and you could show it off to your friends. Look at me. I've got such a clean, beautiful library. What's up with your library? Yeah. All right. Question number six. Is there an alternate timeline in which LimeWire was more or even more successful? I kind of think LimeWire timed itself perfectly. Yeah. It is the most successful version of itself that it could have been. It really should have either failed earlier or just not. Yeah. It seems shocking to me that it existed as long as it did. Yeah. It had a 10 year run. That's kind of a like, even yeah. In that world is a long time. It's kind of a long time. I do think there's an interesting, like if it had started 10 years later or even five years later and hadn't been the one that the RIAA decided to break in half and had gotten a real chance to actually like make Spotify-ish deals and try to do the go legit turn. It would have been interesting to see it try. And I think it probably wouldn't have worked because by the time you do any of the file-sharing stuff, you've just burned all of those bridges. But like if they were serious about wanting to turn into that other thing, the move is start five years later and don't be the one that becomes the target for everybody and sort of like lived to fight another day. But I don't think it would have worked. Yeah. I don't think so. I think that they at this point peer to peer was so enathema. I think that in order, the universe in which any of this stuff succeeds is it starts way earlier. Like the fork happens with Napster. The fact that Napster did not close that deal with Sony, that everyone thought that they were willing to close. Like close watchers thought that Napster was going to make a deal with Sony music because Sony also was making MP3 players. So they were the label that was out of lockstep with the other labels because they were the they were also making the thing that had substantial not infringing uses, right? But no, Sony stuck with the other labels. And so in the forking universe where that deal gets made, Napster survives and we see just a different universe of even cases and lime wire never makes it. Lime wire just never makes it period. Yeah. Yeah. The universe for lime wire where it's competitors got sued out of existence before it got sued out of existence. I want to be 100% clear that Sarah's best universe for lime wire involves a $72 trillion damage in the structure. This is the best it could have gone for. Could have been higher. Yeah. Could have been higher. Question number seven, could you reboot lime wire now to be parentheses not as an NFT? No, it's it's the only future for these kinds of brands is to be NFTs. Do you have like old defund consumer electronics brands get bought up by like weird Chinese distributors and like Polarides back? These things only NFTs. Okay, my only case for this would be do you think it's possible that there is enough nostalgia that if they were like we're just doing Spotify but it's called lime wire that it might work. Looks Spotify does it like a South by Southwest stunt where they just rebranded. This is what I'm saying. Why not? The lime coin gets so valuable that they buy Spotify rebranded as lime wire. It's not so bad enough problems with artists reputation. They might as well just go all the way to lime wire. Yeah. Now I think the answer is no and the way that I know is because they have tried to do with Napster like 35 times. Napster over and over and over keeps making comebacks and no one cares. Napster falls in the same category as the DeLorean in my mind. So they keep trying to bring back DeLorean's. All the time. DeLorean's back and I was like the DeLorean's back and then it fails. And like bro no one cares about a DeLorean. They want time machines and you have not made a time machine. Yeah, the doors to go like this are not the reason people love the DeLorean. The weird tin can triangle car. And every scale is now proven to be a failure. Have you thought about making a working flux capacitor? And like it happened after I was the exact same brand problem. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Question number eight. Does lime wire belong in the version history Hall of Fame? As you both know, version history Hall of Fame. Nebulous and vibe space. No. The answer is no. I don't even know. It's hard. No, whatever the rules are. I think that's right. So yeah. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't. I mean, it's my answer is similar to the one about sort of forking universes. I think Napster belongs in the Hall of Fame and lime wire does not. Lime wire had a freak accident history in which it was the last one standing because it did not. It just wasn't important enough. And then it had all the market cheer because it was the last one standing and then it died. Yeah. No, I think that's right. I think lime wire is like a good footnote in the story, but does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Yeah. I agree. All right. All right. Thank you both. This is very fun. I got lawyer at for a while. This is my goal. I don't know what you had a good time. I love it very much. We're just going to call this episode substantial not in forging universes. And no one is ever going to watch or listen to it. And I'm very excited about it. That's it for this show. Thank you so much to both of you for being here. Thank you for watching and listening. As always, you can watch all of our episodes on YouTube. You can listen to them wherever you get podcasts. The best way to support us and all of this is to subscribe to theverge.com. Please do not take your content for free. If you're skipping the commercials, it's that good. We will see you next time. Thank you as always. Version history is produced by Victoria Barrios, River Branson, Owen Grove, Brandon Kiefer, Travis Larchuck, Eric Gomez, Andrew Moreno, and Alex Parkin. Studio support from Chris Straitlef. Our theme music is composed by Brandon McFarland. Be sure to subscribe to the new Version History Podcast feed to get all of our new episodes as soon as they arrive.