This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. Sorry for the voice note, but can we get a takeaway tonight, Mum? Oh, no, no. We've got leftovers in the fridge. They'll do it, it'll be nice. Um, sorry. I'll eat it. Who's for pizza? Pizza! Sure, we can give you lots of data, but what really matters is friends and family. That's why we're happy to be your second most important network. It pays to be connected. Co-op members now get prices matched to Audi. Hold on, no way! OK, then, so co-op members now get everyday essentials priced matched to Audi. Sign up and start saving. Co-op, owned by you, right by you. I wasn't expecting that. Co-op member prices matched versus comparable selected products at AudiGP. Co-op membership required. Co-op group foods at alsonysc.co.uk. Hi, everybody. This is Jordan Rodriguez, and I'm excited to share another episode of NFL Daily's Power Players with you all today. As many of you know, I love football. One of my favorite things about the NFL is learning about how teams are built, how decision makers from coaches to executives to scouts to players think, and the process itself of the sport. How people do football is the coolest, and I know you think so too. So in Power Players, we're going to talk to football people and learn from them and pull back the curtain of the sport for you just a little further. We'll sprinkle these into your feed from time to time. A little surprise extra treat for our dedicated listeners. Today, I am interviewing A.J. Heismith, who is the pro personnel director of the New England Patriots. And yes, Greg is very jealous that he was not a part of this. A.J. is the son of Alonzo Heismith, a legendary longtime executive. And A.J. talks with us today about how watching his dad scout and help build teams really sparked his interest in the craft, even though A.J. himself was a player, including at the University of Miami. A.J. has worked in scouting and personnel for years, including with the San Francisco 49ers, the Titans, the Bills, and now the Patriots. He's part of a core group there that has reset New England's organizational identity. And I really wanted to know how he sees all the pieces of that building coming together to build. A.J. is a scout at heart, a driven personnel pro who I like on this show because, like us, he's always asking why. So let's get into it. Here's A.J. Heismith. We are so thrilled to welcome A.J. Heismith, Patriots director of pro personnel to the show today. A.J., I know I'm coming to you from the Chris Westling podcast studio here at NFL Network. You're coming to me from a brand new facility, right? Yes, we are. This is kind of a big deal. They got the whole setup for me. So it's been really cool to see back here behind the studio. And you've been moving offices, so I really appreciate that you've taken the time. Now, I personally, I kind of wish that we were still doing this with your draft board in the background, but that was a very subtle good move by you to make sure that that was not the location. I had a lot of difficulties in my office. It wasn't quite the same setup we have here. It wasn't as cool. I know you look like you're in The Avengers right now. So I'm so stoked to talk with you today. Talked with you a lot over the last couple of months just about your background, your story, and kind of what you are doing in football right now and how you do football. And you said something early on in our conversations that like really, really stuck out to me. And that is that you were raised by football. Can you explain to our listeners what you mean by that and how the sport and the people within it have shaped your background? Yeah, I think for me, you know, I was very fortunate with the family that I was born into, the experiences that I've had. And it really goes back even before my dad, my grandfather, he was a long time coach, coached in the CFL, coached in college football. He played center in the NFL in the 60s. And that is where I really, a lot of my football knowledge, I would say comes from. And my dad, obviously being the NFL executive, he is in a scout. So I grew up as a kid, you know, really with a front row seat to so many scouting opportunities and seeing what that process was like. And my playing career honestly shaped me a lot. And I attribute a lot of my foot, my experiences in football and a lot of the grit that I carry with me today is a testament to the experiences that I had at the University of Miami. So those are probably the three parts, I would say, when I think of what raised me in the football world. Those are definitely the three most impactful parts of it. I'm curious about growing up as the son of an executive. And obviously, you know, everybody knows though, right? And but to see him navigate the world of, you know, executive personnel and the team building aspect of it. Now, you're you're watching this as you're growing up and you're also living the experience of what team building looks like in totality, which is the sport itself playing on the field. How did you like start to marry those two together? And was there ever sort of a, oh, I understand now why we do it this way because I'm feeling this when I'm out on the field? Yeah, I think, you know, he would say that I think before he knew if I wanted to be a football player, he knew I wanted to be a scout. And maybe he was just, you know, scouting me and my skill set along the way and didn't want to tell me. But, you know, I think that my experiences were different because I always love football, but I love being around the game, not just, you know, going to the games on Saturdays or Sundays. But I like knowing about practice and I wanted to know about the draft process and he would come home and I would, you know, read the media guides. I try to read his reports and find players that I liked or I wanted to know who he liked and I wanted to know why. So I'd ask him tons of questions about guys and then from there it kind of transitioned into, you know, I'd ask him if I could write a report. And so he gave me, you know, he gave me a piece of paper and I put on the tape and I wrote a guy and he read it. And I think he was kind of caught off guard because it was, he says it was really good and I might have been, you know, nine or 10 years old at the time. And so it's always been a passion of mine and I think learning the nuances is something that I've been passionate about and I was fortunate because he really gave me a, he never made me do it, but he gave me the seat, you know, in the arena to, you know, find success and have the resources to be able to grow and thrive, you know, in that space. What was it about scouting specifically to you? Because most people in football, they want to be in football, they want to be on the field or the sideline or in the headset or all these things. But I really have such an appreciation for the guys who lurk, right? The observers, the people in the weeds who are like really digging into the psychology and the scheme and how somebody potentially will grow. And I guess what was it for you that made you so interested in specifically that lane? I think I always wanted to know why or know how players were so successful. And in player success, you build it into team success. And so trying to figure out all of the reasons in different ways that you could find players and build teams was always just very interesting to me. And there are tons of different ways to do it. And I think that just learning about it and it was really just a passion of mine from a very early age. And I always wanted to, you know, figure out what made players tick or why certain organizations were able to have more success picking players and others. And so I think that was always just very intriguing to me even more so than playing the actual game. So that really just became a passion of mine on that side. You know, I have to ask, do the guys you are right about stick with you as much as the guys maybe that you missed on? Everybody has hits and misses, right? The misses hurt way more. But you know, you hope that you're right more than you're wrong because you're going to get both. But you know, you live and you learn a lot. And that's the thing that I try to always learn. And even when, you know, you do get one writer, you get a couple guys writer things work out. I don't just, you don't just stop there and say, OK, that worked and just throw it. You know, you figure out why. And it was it just luck with the just, you know, outside circumstances or, you know, did you have a process as to why you were able to identify traits or qualities about a player that end up in term, allowing him to be successful. So I definitely think about the misses a lot more. I still have some that, you know, haunt me and we always joke about it. So you only have to get the ones right that you pick. And so if they miss for someone else, then hey, that's not, you know, it's kind of out of your control. I love that. You also set me up very nicely for my next question for you. So thank you for doing that. The scouting process, people on the outside always think that it's they think about it as it pertains to the draft, right? The NFL draft and the area scouts and the college scouts. But what you do now in pro personnel, you carry forward, not just those evaluations, which you still do, but you carry forward into the players entire timeline and also every other players entire timeline. Can you explain to the listener who might not know the differences between college scouting and pro scouting and the college side and the pro personnel side? Yeah. So I think everyone's really familiar with the draft process and how that works and what that looks like. Obviously, you're watching, you know, all of the college football and on the pro side, you're really managing and helping assist with all the day to day transactions that occur on the pro level. And so everything from, you know, cutting down your roster in August and you break down the year in segments and you go through and we have kind of August and training camp and you're evaluating your own roster, trying to get the best 53 players for your team. And you're evaluating the other players around the league. We break down, you know, all the teams, you know, within our department that we have and you try to find guys at the cut down players that, you know, get cut from someone else that you can acquire on your team. And so we go through those and we transition to our end season process where it's a lot of advanced scouting where you're working with the coaches and we come up with, you know, evaluating the opponents that we're going to play on a week to week basis. And we evaluate all the other teams around the league as well. So we have, you know, a group of scouts in our pro department and whichever scout is primary on the advanced that week, they kind of work with the coaching staff directly. And the other group, the four or five of us, we're still evaluating all the other teams and upcoming free agents around the NFL. And once the season, you know, comes to an end kind of that December, January area, we were lucky this year to keep going. And so we had the fortunate but unfortunate, you know, hassle of, you know, evaluating free agency through the Super Bowl in February. And usually that's when it all goes together. And that was a really unique process. I got to learn a lot because that was the first time that I've been a part of that, you know, through the extended season. And I had a couple of years where I've been in the playoffs, but never to that extent. And so that was really cool to see that process all the way through and kind of have to go through the logistical hurdles, you know, trying to evaluate and get the free agent process. Right. While we're still getting ready, you know, for the Super Bowl. Yeah. Kind of had a lot going on at that moment, I would say. And a lot, but good, good first world problems for sure. Do you think there's something that people don't know still about scouting or the calendar of pro and college and how everything has to sort of mesh together in a big puzzle? I think, you know, just how much goes into all of the decisions that are made. I think everyone knows the talent and you see the talent because you see like the players, they get picked at the top of the draft or the free agents that make, you know, 20 and 30 and 40 million dollars. So that those are kind of the one-offs and the easy ones. But I think, you know, the long hours of meetings and the collaborating with the coaches and there's so many different opinions and there's so much information that we go through, you know, to make the right decision. And I almost talk about it like when you're buying a house, like you don't just walk up with a check and just hand it over. You want to know the background, the history, all of the circumstances, you know, who built the house, what are the things that go into it? What's the longevity going to be like? Is it right for your team today? Is it right for your team long term? And so there's a lot of different questions and thoughts, you know, that, you know, go into a lot of conversations that have to be had from top to bottom. That, you know, it's a lot more than just identifying if a guy is a good player and, you know, can he help you? And then if you're in Los Angeles, you rent until you die. So good metaphor. Other than my LA people who are listening. You know, AJ, you guys, we love, we talked about this all the time on the show, on NFL Daily this year. You guys did such a really good job of resetting the floor of this roster when this new regime came in. And a lot of that was rebuilding through what you do in pro personnel and figuring out how to compliment what you hope to do in the draft with those sort of floor raising and ceiling raising people that build this puzzle. To do that, you also have to really be locked in with the coaching staff and your communication with them and the intricacies of specifically how they want that puzzle to form out. But they also have to know your methods and your plans of, hey, we can do this and this will lift our floor this much. We can't, we're not at the phase yet or we can do this other thing. So how do you, how do you communicate with coaches? What's that like for you? Because again, it is something you lived and learned your entire life. But how do you do it now as the pro personnel director? It's a great process here. I think, you know, I've been fortunate to be at a few places where we have gone through the transition and turned things around. And one thing that I love here between Elliott and Coach Raves, like they do a great job of, I would say, identifying what's important. And I've got to learn a lot, you know, being here because I came in kind of as the new guy and I came after the free agency process a year ago. And so I really got to see and reap a lot of the benefits that, you know, they built like prior to me being here. And I think the one, the one cool thing about our process is we all speak the same language. It's really about adding good people, whether that's in personnel or the players to the locker room. And we talk about building an identity and building players that are going to add to that. And I think when you learn and you've seen it so many different ways, the one thing I feel through my playing experience that has helped me is I can really understand what they're trying to build, whether that's a scheme that we're trying to run or adapting to the types of players that we're going to add, whether it's here versus my time when I was in San Francisco. Every scheme is a little different. But I think the first thing you have to do is you try to come in and learn everything going on around you. Like what makes, you know, what type of players are going to make the new England Patriots the most successful. And so I spent a lot of my time doing that and learning kind of what we're building here and how we're going to be built and what type of identity we're going to have. And they make it a very easy process to be a part of because the vision is very clear. I think everyone knows what types of players that we want and then obviously what we're trying to build in terms of the floor and ceiling of guys that we add. I do love to though, when coaches get so excited about this stuff and they want to invest and they want to, you know, why can't we do this or let's, you know, let's put all and because they're so excited. First, what they just saw on the field and experience with these players, but then also what the potential could be moving forward. And you said two things to me. I actually wrote them down on a post-it because I think key phrases that I learned from League people. I save them on posts in my house. You said consistency and objectivity and maintaining that combination through everything you do. You have to sort of walk in both of those worlds and maintain, be like a guidepost, maintaining those two qualities. How do you do that? And what do those words mean to you? Yeah, I think that to me is how you build credibility. And, you know, like I've, when I started, I was, I've been through a lot of transitions with staffs. And so there's a lot of times where your scheme can change the type of team you're on can change even within the season. Your team changes and your goal may change or how you're building your team changes depending on the type of season you're having. And so the one thing I think that always gives you credibility, especially with coaches, especially with your staff. And even when you're building a roster is when you're very consistent and you're very objective. And I think to me, it sounds simple, but it's hard sometimes to stick to because of the emotions that come with it. And a lot of times that means having tough conversations, making tough decisions. They're not always fun. And, you know, it's not always easy. But I think it goes a long way. And I think people respect it. And I think they understand it. And when you're, you know, when you have to talk to four different coaches, you know, sometimes within the same week, or you get a new coach and something changes or I change and I go to a new place. The one thing that can be very consistent is the way that I see the players and how I communicate it to them. And I think they understand it and they respect it a lot, you know, when you can prove to be that way, you know, over time. But you also have a like a method that you do too. You like to ask questions that lead somebody to reach and answer themselves. How did you refine that technique? And do you have an example of some type of question or a way you would ask somebody, something that would maybe lead to an answer that maybe they didn't have when they first were talking about the subject? I think what I've learned to ask questions and I think as I've grown and reflecting some, I think when I was young, I was always very passionate. I've never been afraid to share my thoughts or give my opinion when I was asked. And I think I learned early on that it didn't always go over well. And I tried to figure out like I was just, you know, trying to be objective and trying to be very clear or try to be very direct. And the one thing I learned was, I think just with age, you get a little more graceful and as opposed to, you know, trying to prove the room wrong or trying to say that, you know, I don't think it's always about proving who's right and who's wrong. It's really just trying to get it right, you know, for our team and for the group on that, you know, whatever that discussion is. And so sometimes instead of saying, hey, I think all of you guys are looking at this wrong. This is what the right answer is and this is why. Sometimes I think it goes a lot further and it's received a lot better when you can just ask, hey, like how many guys under 510 have success at this level in the NFL? And so that way it comes across and it's like, I don't seem like the big bad. I'm not giving the I'm not the bare bad news, but it's also it sparks the conversation. It comes from a little different perspective. It makes everyone kind of think and give their opinion about, you know, that particular player. And so I do that a lot now where and sometimes just to get the right answer in other times, it is just to get perspective in the room and say, you know, we're trying to build our team, you know, with a certain identity or a certain type of player, you know, does this guy fit or does he have enough traits, even if he's missing something, whether it's a 40 time or he may be too tall or too short for the position. But if they have enough other qualities, then I think we can have that conversation and see if we can get to, you know, ultimately the right answer. I think it portrays flexibility to you. You just hit on it where it's we have these traits that are plus traits for this player and maybe he's, you know, average or deficient in this trait, but we have to be flexible because we're looking at this as a giant puzzle. So maybe we have a plus trait somewhere else with somebody who could compliment him in a way that I guess lifts the bar for what that combined trait is. I'm curious, do you have a favorite question that you like to ask your your scouts and and and your coaches like a sarcastic question or a real question? Well, how about both? I would, you know, I would love to hear both. I mean, sometimes you just have to drop in like a aren't we trying to get tougher or, you know, like you just have to make sure we're staying keeping it keeping it going in the right direction. But no, it depends. I think I'm a big fan of studying the history and the players that are successful, you know, in the NFL. And I think there's if you look at it over time, there are trends that work in whether it's the size, the speed at certain positions or, you know, particular skill set. Like we joke and we say like kind of in that scout, very scout tone of like, you know, at wide receiver hand, having good hands is a prerequisite. Like you have to have that to be successful, that there's not many guys who can play receiver at a high level that don't catch the ball really well. And so I think some of those things are kind of, I would say in my foundation of values when I'm evaluating a player. And so you try to stick to those and I bring up, you know, those are something I'll bring up whenever we're either trying to split the difference on a player. You know, if there's something that we need to get off the fence about, I think those are always good questions to ask, you know, to help you make a decision. And you also have to look at the position itself, the position group itself, not just the totality of the roster, but position by position as its own little puzzle as well, where you aren't just getting a lot of guys that do the same thing at every receiving position, for example. It's guys that play off of each other, guys that fill different layers in the passing game. How do you look at that maybe that position as an example part to whole of what it's like to actually build a complementary position group? Yeah, I think it's a mix. So there's two different, there's two sides of it. I think that as a player, I think when we look at it, there is what I like to call quantitative and qualitative traits for the positions. And so we have still we have skills and things we can measure obviously with the combine and pro days and their height, their weight, the 40 time the arm length, which is a huge deal now with everyone, it seems like. And then I think those are very kind of standard and very clear cut easy to measure. And you can run tons of studies on that. But then I think the other side of it, what I would call the qualitative traits are things that you can see. And they're very subjective. And so it's the the play speed and the play style and the temperament that guys have. And it's different for everyone. Like you could see it and watch it and you could say it's amazing and it's unreal. I could say, it's OK, I don't love it. And those are the conversations where lots of questions are asked. People have to, you know, we have a lot. We put our brains together with our group and we kind of parse through all of those things because it can be very subjective and getting it right for us. And that's right for our team, maybe different, you know, for a different team or different places I've been. And so those are some of the things that we kind of talked about before we're collaborating in, you know, Elliott and Vraves. They do a great job and I've learned a lot of what works here, what works for us. And, you know, I've really learned why we've been able to have success the way that we have because of the types of players and the type of people that they put in, you know, key spots for us. And on that, I mean, enormous success in, you know, your first full year with the team, but then also this frayable year and really getting this organization into lockstep, the way that I think you guys want to inform your future as well. And success, you mentioned at the start, can be sort of a double-edged sword at times, right? It's really great to reach the mountaintop, but then you have to have a real look at yourself as well about maybe what pieces you were missing along the way. I wonder how you guys have those conversations and what you look at as sustainable with this Patriots team and what you look at as things you can build on for the future versus maybe where, hey, we're going to take a second and look inward in this area. Yeah, I think that's one thing I really love here is I think we have a group of people that always want to get better. And I haven't ever come in the building one time and everyone said, oh, we can like let our hair down. Everything's okay. I think we constantly have a group from top to bottom where we're always, I think, trying to get better, trying to find that next step, trying to get that edge or keep that edge, you know, that we've had trying to get to this point where we are today. And so I think, you know, being very objective and being very driven and consistent with that process helps a lot because, you know, there are no rest days and we are behind. And so you're just always, you know, really trying to get better. Is cliche as it sounds, that is really a thing. And I think we have a group of people, you know, starting at the top and working all the way down that really, you know, emulate that process. Well, as you know, I mean, you know, you were raised by football. So the football cliches kind of work half the time I feel like. Not a lot of not a lot of pattern the backs in my house. We're getting there though. My dad's 60 now. So I get a few more these days. Oh, I'm sure you get in a few I told you so as well now that you're in the role that you are AJ Heismith. We were so grateful to have you with us today on NFL Dailies. Power players really appreciate you and your time and your insight. Yeah, no, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Once again, thanks to AJ Heismith for being gracious with his time and insight today. I especially loved how he thinks about building complimentary traits within not just a roster or a side of the ball, but also within different position groups and also thinking, why wouldn't we do this? Why wouldn't we try it this way or think about it this way, even though traits or certain measure bowls are telling us one story? What can we also find about the rest of this players story? I also do think that the question, aren't we trying to get tougher? Can you just imagine being in the room when he asks that question? AJ, thanks so much again for joining NFL Dailies power players. 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