‘Interstellar’ Revisited With Van Lathan | Chill Nolan Winter

Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanne Robinson. That's Molly Rubin. And joining us today from Sycamore Studios, it's Van Lathan. Hey, Van, how you doing? What's up, guys? How are you guys doing? I'm here at Sycamore. Spill S-I-C-K. What about Slickamore? Slickamore is good. Just Slickamore. I like that. I like both of them. These are fantastic names. We're here in our new digs. Everybody's so excited. All right, here's the deal. Mallory and I are at home. Van's luxurating on our beautiful couch there in the studio. And we are here to talk to you about Interstellar as part of our ongoing Christopher Nolan series. And we'll get into that right after this. all right so Mallory do you want to announce the theme that we've definitely planned long in advance sure like we've been planning this for so long and definitely did not just come up with it what House of R is doing for the month of March I would say we had planned all of these podcasts and only just recently realized we had many space podcasts in a row because we are so excited for Project Hail Mary. It's a book we love. It's a movie we're very much looking forward to. And so it's Space Month. It's Space Month here at the House of R. Move over CR month. You're on notice. It's Space Month in March. And we will be doing, obviously we're doing Interstellar today, as part of the ongoing Christopher Nolan rewatch on the, here at the House of R. Slow and steady march toward the Odyssey. it's the first one of winter we've been workshopping subtitles for that I think it'll ultimately fall on Carlos to name it when the podcast goes live it's a chill Nolan winter you've been workshopping some other ideas then we're going to be revisiting The Martian because that is another Andy Weir space adaptation Drew Goddard screenplay so we need to revisit that film before Project Hail Mary then we're going to do a space movie draft can't fucking wait that's going to be a blast that is going to be so fun And then we will be diving deep into Project Hail Mary. And guess what? We're talking to Andy Weir. We got Andy Weir in the pod. Very exciting. Thrilling. So, yeah, it's Space Month. We're really, really excited. And I'm so excited to have Van here for our trip into Interstellar. We could not save the Cuban race without Van. We needed a team-up for Interstellar. It's an absolute must. How can folks keep track of everything we're doing in space and everything else that's happening on the scene? here's what I would recommend. Follow the pod. That's really all you need to do. Follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can see full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys. Pew, pew, pew. On the Spotify app and the Ringerverse YouTube channel. You're going to be able to see around the Oscars. You're going to be able to see the annual team up, the Versys. That's a thrill. We're all excited for that. We're going to be gathering next week to do the Versys. It's always a treat, always fun. And while you're at it, follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We're not going to tell you what that should be. wherever you want to be, that's where we are. Live your life. Live your life. Find us. Find us on the Internet. And now we will. Yeah, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, et cetera. And then, you know, email us. The inbox is always open. We had a wonderful time with the seasonal mailbag just a few days ago. Keep the emails coming. Send us your Project Hail Mary emails, your Space Month emails. What do you think should be selected in the space draft, even though you don't know who will be drafting or what the categories are going to be? Let us know. And send us your Project Hail Mary thoughts, your daredevil thoughts, anything that's coming later in the season. And we always love to hear from you, HobbitsandDragons at gmail.com. Van, what are your thoughts on space and space movies in general? I was thinking about this because I saw Project Hail Mary last night, and then I dusted off Interstellar this morning because I wanted to have it fresh on my mind. And, boy, do I feel small this morning. Feel small and dumb. Yeah. And I'm ready. But you know what I think, though? This is the real take, watching these two movies back to back. Obviously, we'll all as family talk about Project Hail Mary a lot on the channel later on. Space and movies set in space give creators, filmmakers, a unique opportunity to litigate humanity. You can make movies in space that tell you more or demonstrate more about what it's like to be human, what it's like to be alive, then you can do that easier in space than you can with movies set like right in the heart of Los Angeles. Around here, there's so many distractions wherever you live that take you away from your connection to people, from your feeling of a greater human experience, from sometimes how you are dedicated to humanity. But when you see people in space doing stuff, and all they have are the sentences that they're saying to one another, the bravery, the mission, and it's for all of the marbles. Normally you get these really profound statements on life and love. I think, what do you think of the fact that there's like so many space horror movies? Like in addition to these sort of adventure, Project Hail Mary, The Martian, Interstellar, et cetera, et cetera, you get a lot of space horror. What do you think about that? Any thoughts? So I like space horror because you got all kinds of crazy things that can happen, right? You can pass. What was that one where they went through the black hole and everything went crazy? What was the name of that one? What was it called? Event Horizon. Remember that one? That was wacky. Okay. So you get a crazy beast, a demon, a virus or something like that. It's always fun. And I like that because space itself is a prison. so even if you're on a ship, doesn't matter how big the ship is, you're trapped inside of the ship as you're doing all of this stuff. But the things that really move me about these space films, like I said, are the exploration of the science behind them and like this fundamental examination of the human experience that can only happen when you're so far away. Space is the ultimate away game. Okay? You're on somebody else's turf. You're around stars. Time is different. All of that stuff. What do you have left. Love, commitment, and experience. Mallory, I don't want to blow up the spot of the person you were talking to, but we were talking to a mutual who said they didn't like space movies because the concept frightened them. Do you have any big picture space movies or space stories ideas that you want to share in this particular moment? I think I'll say most of my takes are the space movie drafts, so we're not stepping on that too much. Fair enough. But I do love a space movie, I think a lot of what Van is saying feels really right to me. That extends to television shows, novels as well. You know, something like Battlestar Galactica is one of my favorites to this day because it allows us to explore all of that, like, what is worth preserving and fighting for and saving about humanity, but also there are episodes where there's sheer terror that you're forced to confront when, you know, one of the moments in this movie, in Interstellar, which we're about to talk about, is, like, that I love. It's quiet, it's quick, but when Rom is like, there's just nothing between us and all of the things that can kill us other than the thing that's in the So you have the capacity in a space story to explore all aspects of what frightens human beings and what human beings are driven by, motivated by trying to preserve. They also, it's just, this is like the most obvious thing to say, but it is just so cinematic. It is the capacity for grand spectacle in a space opera and a space film. And then it's one of the things that I think we're really excited for to explore more in the space draft. in any draft here at the Ringer. There's always bleed across categories, but you have an opportunity to try to codify and define something. As you both are saying, the subgenres inside of the genre of the space film are kind of boundless. You have space horror. You have space friendships. You have space adventures. You have first contact. You have space stories that are ultimately more set on some sort of terrain and planet. Is that something from space reaching us on Earth? Have we or other beings gone elsewhere into the great abyss, can we establish a sense of connection and home? Or will we always feel like we've lost that if we're not on this very planet? It's great. So I love what it unlocks for people. And, like, there's something about when I was texting Joe this the other day, like, when I was a kid, I had a telescope. And I loved the idea of having a telescope. And I was weaned on sci-fi stories. It's like my dad loves sci-fi, and, you know, his introduction to something like Asimov's Nightfall, for example, leaving that as one of the stories on the bookshelf in my room is like a big gateway for me in getting into all of this in the first place. So I, like, kept this telescope in my room, and I just always wanted to look up at the stars and think about it. Never really learned how to use it, and it's a regret of mine to this day. And maybe this is the year that I pivot back to a telescope. But I can't really see stars in Los Angeles. That's the problem. I know. Too much life pollution. It's tough. Honestly, it's quite tough. Yeah. What about you, Joe? Why do you gravitate toward space cinema? I think that idea of the size thing that Van was bringing up earlier, like how small we are. When we leave a planet where we are considered like the apex predator, the most important thing on the rock, and then we go out in the world and we see in the wider world, see how big it is, see that there's intelligent life out there, see that there's intelligent life that is far more advanced are far more intelligent than we are, and all of a sudden we're the apes. You know, we're the whatever. I think that's really interesting. I think there are so many shots in this movie specifically, and we will be spoiling Interstellar, by the way, in case you haven't seen Interstellar. We will be spoiling Interstellar. So what are you doing? Go see that movie and come back and listen to this. But there are so many shots in this movie where the ship is so small in relative to the size of everything around it, when you see Gargantua or Saturn or even on the ocean of Miller's planet. Like, there are all these moments when the minute nature of humanity is taken in sharp relief. And then also one of my favorite things across many space stories is the silence in space. Yeah, me too. Right? There's, like, the favorite alien, like, in space, no one can hear you scream. But, like, all the exterior shots you get of the endurance and, like, how all the sound cuts out, I think that's, like, one of the coolest things that happens in a space movie. I have one thing that I always love about these movies as well is the math. And I'll tell you what I mean is that, like, so there's so much chaos, right? There's so much chaos in space. There's stars that are dying. There are black holes. In this movie, there's all kinds of different things that happen. But the math is the salvation. The universe does have an operating system. And that operating system, we can decipher. we can understand it we can math our way through the universe there's this uh theoretical astrophysicist named miguel alquibere and he wrote a paper where he talked about the fact that warp speed light travel actually the math checks out it's the engine i was stuck on this for like a month so i gotta put it in the it it's the engineering really that we don't have we don't have the engineering to build the craft that we would need but the math checks out so when we see human beings who are at the mercy of all of these different forces in the universe just have to use something that we've been able to observe and wield uh at you know with our own minds which is the math of the universe that's our salvation it's almost like a god in it of itself it's almost like The spirituality in and of itself, the equation, if you can figure that out, you can save yourself. I really love that you brought this up at the top of the pod. I think this is a fascinating film through which to assess the question of, frankly, whether you need to be able to track the math and science and whether the math and science inside of the film is sensical at all. So I'm sure that will come up as we go through it today. But more broadly, what I love about it is, and what I love about the category of film, is that, you know, you can calibrate your relationship to that question as a viewer. And I think something that Interstellar, I have quite a few notes on the science of Interstellar, even though I am not a scientist, not a physicist. I think the way that Interstellar deploys some of that is a little bit befuddling to me still all this time later. However, what I love is pairing, like the intention to pair the hard sci-fi and the soft sci-fi. So you have a lot of actual science, right, and the equation, the idea of the singularity, the black hole, the event horizon, plan A, plan B, gravity, three dimensions, five dimensions, et cetera. You also just have the very tidy concept of the explorer. And that is the same thing inside of this film, because the impulse to explore, and we get the comp to like the explorer and the boat right before we're on a water planet. Wonderful stuff, right? It's great. The idea of just the human impulse to always seek something else. And so maybe that is just something that you feel in your soul. maybe it is something that you say, I actually need to be able to crack the code of this. And the math and the science support that one day I and humanity will be able to do that. And whatever the character's relationship to that idea is or the viewer's relationship to that idea is, it propels you outward and forward. I think this idea, to bounce off what both of you said, first of all, I think this idea of, like, faith inside of this movie is really, really interesting. Like, the daddy issues and the god issues are all wrapped up in one the way that they always should be inside of a story that we love. But also this idea, and this is definitely present in Project Hail Mary, of course, is, like, our salvation being science. Our salvation as a species being science. And the way in which, like, you know, the world we live in, the country we live in right now is consistently devaluing science and devaluing the idea of, like, NASA as, like, a vital part of the human experience versus now it's shifting towards, like, this is what the uber-rich do and will do and stuff like that. so we're not, like, gathering around to watch our scientists. We're gathering around to watch, like, Katy Perry go to space. And it's just, like, the way in which NASA is so humbled inside of this story and the way in which – but then the way in which largely these stories so value scientists and math and curiosity and exploration is important to me. Can I just note one scene, and it stuck out. This stuck out to me as I watched the movie this time. All right, when good old Coop, the best-looking pilot farmer in the world. There's never been a better-looking pilot. His skincare routine in the Dust Bowl? Amazing. Okay. So, Coop. so when koop and murk follow the the gravity puzzle and they get into the room there is a thought that they are inside of an illuminati meeting right there are people legitimately the way that scene is set is there a bunch of people sitting around a table doing some weird shit they're asking questions they're asking questions as if they have some sort of authority they're asking questions as if uh the coop is beneath them at first it seems that way but what they really are are curious they're curious about what's happening right and that that's sort of the veil is ripped off that when we find out who they are they go this is NASA. So this is not some military installation. This is not all the world's billionaires. This is not like this end time sort of religious cult that is there to figure out this is NASA. Our relationship to NASA, the fact that we looked at that time, at least as the people that explore space, as these people to be, there's a, there was an altruism there. We looked at NASA. We looked at space exploration as something that broadened our experience as a human culture something that was awesome for us something that brought us all different types of investments into technology something that changed our lives and made us understand how we interact with our universe and our natural world when they go this is nasa you feel safe you feel like he's safe that would not be like that right now if that was this is space force or this is blue origin or this is SpaceX, you'd be like, it's a bomb villain at the other end of this conversation. You know what I mean? That's what I'm saying. The billionaires and the ne'er-do-wells have taken this thing that was so patriotic and American and unifying and all this other stuff. I don't care. Anyway, time dilation means that I have done this podcast in a weird order. We're going to go now to our opening snapshot, which we do. All right, so this film was directed by Christopher Nolan. Have you heard of him? It's a screenplay by Christopher Nolan and my beloved Jonah Nolan. We'll talk about some differences between their versions of this story. But it's based on an idea from Kip Thorne, a renowned scientist, Nobel Prize winner, I believe, Kip Thorne, and Linda Obes, who is a producer who worked on Contact. So this came from like scientific minds who had an idea for a very grounded. I mean, Mallory, not a scientist, but has some questions about the science of this movie. But the idea was let's make a space movie that has very grounded science in it. And that's what we want to do here. This came out November 26, 2014. Budget $165 million. So less than a Christy Nome ad campaign. box office 773.8 million which is That's wild man insane this is an original concept sci-fi movie Matthew McConaughey was like real hot shit at the time but like this is like 2014 original concept movie 773 million dollars on a 165 million dollar budget this is the fifth highest grossing film for Christopher Nolan after Inception two Batman movies and the phenomenon that was Barbenheimer, like, and then it's Interstellar. That's completely wild to me, honestly. Incredible stuff. For Van, like, because Mallory and I have been, you know, hopping and jumping around Christopher Nolan's filmography, people know how we feel about Christopher Nolan. What's your relationship to Nolan's filmography? What do you think of him as a filmmaker? So, Nolan was one of the first directors of my, you know, I had the directors that I came up with. These are my guys, right? These were guys, and we all got older together. It was Spike Lee and, you know, Spielberg was like the older guard. All of these guys that I came up with. Nolan is one of the first of the new guys, like a friend that I met in college. You know how you have your friends that you grew up with, and they're your friends? Yeah. Then you get to college, and you make a new friend, and you go, is this friend going to be as with me as the guys? This guy might be with me. This is one of my guys. that is who Christopher Nolan was for me it actually started off with Batman Begins I know he had done stuff before and I went back and watched it but I went to watch Batman Begins and I was like yo what the fuck this was way better than it had any business being this is a weird take on Batman and subsequent movies just continue to push me to expand my palette as a film fan to really work my brain out he just doesn't make a simple movie he is he goes into the world of magicians and does all this crazy shit goes into the world of sleep does all this crazy shit you know he goes into the world of batman does all this crazy shit you're re-litigating it's a joker right i never thought about this before all he wants to do is poison the water supply of god i never thought that he might have a point before and so by the time we get to interstellar i'm like all right i'm me and him are good now i'm like whatever he's gonna do i'm pretty good with it and i'm gonna be real with you it had to have been that way because that first watch was lift that was lift that was deadlift that was bench press there was a lot on the screen i'm at the tcl chinese theater getting bombarded by sound getting bombarded by the depth of what's on the screen and then by the time you're it's dusty in the world is this earth are we on earth where's the dust they're eating nothing but corn products what's happening here no explanation as to what's going on you just have to infer that and then then they start with the science and inception had kind of primed me for this a little bit because you get to a point at the end of inception where i really cannot really explain this is the fourth kick third kick we're down to the fifth level and all that stuff i really don't know what's going on so interstellar by the time i got to interstellar with nolan i could surrender to his taste, the way that he makes movies, and what he demands of an audience. And I remember leaving the theater, the first thing I thought was, when can I see it again? That was the first thing I thought. Like, when can I go back? Mal, where were you when you saw it, and did you love it right away? So this was 2014. I was in Los Angeles. I was working at Grantland. I was just recounting this to Sean the other night. I have a pretty vivid memory of this being a very active discussion in the Grantland offices about this movie, in part because one of Van's co-hosts, Tate Frazier, was a Grantland intern at the time, and Tate walked into the office, and this is my memory, perhaps apocryphal, but I feel like this is true, and basically declared that this was the best film that had ever been made. And I think that is how people of a certain generation feel about this movie. How old is Tate? 32. Yeah, so is that, is he Gen Z? A young millennial? What's a young millennial? I don't even know. I just know I'm old now. Is Tate 32? That makes me feel so fucking old. I hired Tate when he was an intern. Oh, my God. All right, I'm going to have to process that later. The grip this movie has on a generation is so interesting to see. Yeah, this is one of the first movies that I remember, like, feeling, I love this movie, and I'm sorry, I was going back to you in a second, Mallory, but, like, I love this movie. I didn't love it in the first watch. I do love this movie, but it's the first movie that I remember being, like, of the older generation watching a younger generation, like, claim something in a very serious way that, like, other generations don't adhere to it. And you're like, oh, wow, you have to be a little bit younger to feel it kind of precisely the way that maybe these kids who have grown up with the larger looming threat of climate change or whatever the case may be, whatever the reason that their fixation on this movie has come about. Yeah, like I'm sure certainly plenty of people who are older than this slice of people who saw this movie, when this came out, they were in high school or they were in college. And they're like, this is the film of my generation and one of my favorite films of all time. plenty of people who are older than that or younger than that and have come to it later as well. But it is, I think, undeniably, like, one of those films for that age group, which is interesting. I mean, we've talked, you know, this is our fifth Nolan Rewatch pod. We've done four to this point. So we've kind of established what our top three, you know, is. And one of the things I've said on every pod is I want to, like, leave open the ability to reset my power ranking as we go because revisiting movies over time, you know, they always shift up or down in your estimation. Interstellar is a really interesting one for me where it has remained. I feel very similarly about it now as I did when I first saw it, which is, like, it's a middle-of-the-pack Nolan movie for me in a way that I think might surprise people who, like, listen to our pod and, like, know some of the tentpoles of things that I'm drawn to in stories. There are parts of this movie and aspects of this movie that I think are masterful and I love. I think the middle of this movie, the second act of this movie, basically like Miller's Water Planet, all of the knockdown drag out arguments between Cooper and Amelia Brand, Coop watching the 23 years of videos from home into revealing who man is and all of the man twists on the ice planet is like God tier. I have a little bit less of a deep and abiding connection to the first and third acts of the film. But I think the emotional highs and like emotional resonance inside of the film really worked for me. I think there are certain riveting and rapturous aspects of scripting and dialogue, and then there are some lines in this movie where I'm like, I was struck by how often I wrote, do people talk this way in my notes? Oh. This is all Nolan movies. Oh, for sure. This one really has them in the first act in a way that is distracting to me. There's some ridiculous dialogue here, guys. I don't know. Nolan tracks so much into a movie that every now and again, you just have to deal with, hey, aren't you the guy who did the thing back in the day and they told you you'd never do it again? And blah, blah, blah, blah. Exactly. He does that every movie, by the way. But he's packing so much into the movie. That's just one of his things that you just got to deal with, man. Yeah, no question. And a lot of, like, one of the ways that we've ended every pod is to talk about, like, the most Nolan thing about the movie, which we will again say, and the thing about revisiting this film that kind of has its most prepped or hyped for the Odyssey. And I find that almost for every pod, like, I'm trying to mix it up, but I end up gravitating towards some of the same beats. And that's actually part of what I love about his filmography. And Nolan is a filmmaker who, you know, he's one of my favorite filmmakers, and I adore his movies. So staying Interstellar is, like, a middle-of-the-pack Nolan movie to me is no dig. You know, it's, like, still a movie that I really enjoy. I just think it is more of a mixed experience for me than his top-tier films are. You know, Inception, The Prestige, Dark Knight, et cetera. I'm curious to see, like, where it checks in when we finish the watch. I think if you said to, like, House of R listeners, space opera, family-driven adventure story where love in a magical, also scientific, bookcase saves the day, they would be like, that's probably Mallory's favorite movie that was ever made. So I'm like always a little surprised. And I'm like, that is a movie that I find myself crying during many times and visually astonished by many times. And then also a few times every time I watch it, I'm like, I'm rubbing my chin a little bit. So I think about it. I think for me, the hot. So I, in 2014, I can't remember if I had started. I might have just started at Vanity Fair or I might have still been at Pajiba. But it was an era of my life when I was, like, still very dedicated to snarky reactions to things, which has changed a bit for me over the years. Not entirely, but somewhat. But I used to just, like, it was an era of my life when I thought, like, being snarky about something and feeling like you're smarter than the thing made you smart, which I don't agree with anymore. But so I had, like, a real snarky reaction to this movie. Like, the library section at the end of this movie is, like, you know, easy to make fun of if you want to. And my memory is that, like, this is a very divisive movie at the time. That a lot of people were like, what the fuck is this? And then some people were like, I love this. And my experience with Interstellar is that every single time I watch it, I like it more. Yeah. And its highs are higher than most other Nolan movies for me. Like, you know, it just, the McConaughey weeping scene is, like, one of the best things I've ever seen. And I would also say, and I bring this up every time we talk about, like, a Jonathan Nolan, Chris Nolan collab. My journey through Westworld, which was such, like, a deep, deep scholarship of television that I did, made me go back and, like, revisit Jonathan's other works. And so, like, to see the DNA of what he was interested in in this movie and play out in the better parts of Westworld, Amelia's speech, I think especially, like, really helped my appreciation for it. And so, like, you and I, Mallory, you and I both bumped a bit on the runtime. And I will say. It's a long movie. It's a long ass movie. Van, you watched it this morning. Did you ever get surprised by how long this movie is? Yeah. So I started last night before Project Hail Mary, right? I was going to have some time. I was going to watch the movie. I like to watch the movie and have it fresh. And then I cut the movie. I was like, God damn. You know? I know. It's an hour in and we're still on Earth. And you're like, oh, shit. I'm up at 6 a.m. in the morning trying to finish this bitch. This bitch is long. Yeah. But, you know, I think what we're all saying is that, like, no one – it's interesting. Like, at the end of the day, it's a guy screaming at his daughter, right? It's a guy. It's a father. Everything comes from the human thing. It's the human thing. It's the human thing. It's the father. It's the daughter. It's explaining what being a parent is. In this movie, we get an explanation of what being a parent is, and then we also get an explanation of how love is stronger than gravity. yo if you're going to do that in a movie you literally have it has to be three hours long because that's such a deep concept and it's a novel concept it's something that i had never heard before love being some the only force in the universe that orients the universe like gravity you got to give a little math you got to give a little connection you got to play with time I gotta see this poor black guy who's on a goddamn craft for 23 years while they played a poor bastard you know he's up there 23 years he comes back tell you what one thing they got right he got a little salt and pepper in his beard but he basically looked the same you know why like the crack but all of those things I guess that's what intrigued me about the movie when I first walked out of the film I don't know if I could say that I thought that it was one of the best Nolan movies or whatever. I had to kind of surrender to the movie. I was kind of on my back foot a little bit about what my expectations were. I had to sit with it at the crib. Because, like, in the theater, there's another thing. Just from a technical aspect, like, I was, like, legitimately overwhelmed. I almost thought the first time I saw it that I was going to have a panic attack. because that other movie had just come out with uh with uh no maybe it came out after what was the movie with sandra bullock and she was stuck in space gravity gravity i couldn't that movie makes me anxious yeah i couldn't i couldn't handle that movie that one was too much you know so but and so with everything that nolan does the films are just so deeply human they're so deeply human but they're grandiose. I think they are, but something that, you know, I've been saying again and again as we talk about the prestige, which is the Jonathan Nolan co-pro, like, I think the Jonathan Nolan co-written scripts are by far more emotional and warmer than, you know, because Chris Nolan sometimes gets accused of being kind of cold and critical, and I think sometimes, and he has talked about that, and he has talked about a couple things about this movie, like, the code name for this movie when they were shooting it is Flora's letter, which is about his daughter, Flora. And so this is a letter to his daughter about being a father and having a daughter. There are so many things from Jonathan Nolan's script that he changed dramatically when he came on the project. This project was originally Kip Thorne and Linda Oates bring it to Steven Spielberg who hires Jonathan Nolan, who works on it for years, and then Steven Spielberg leaves Paramount and all of a sudden leaves the project, and then Jonathan Nolan's like, well shit I need a director oh wait I'm related to one and then Chris Nolan comes on and is like hey I'm gonna rewrite your movie okay and he's like okay um so you can read Jonathan Nolan like one of his a version of his earlier script and and the final script side by side which I did and it's like the first third like where we're on a corn-fed planet like that is so Stevie Spielberg right Steven Spielberg thinking about close encounters and and Richard Dreyfuss leaving his kids to go explore space. Like, that is, that's the DNA of that version of the movie. And then, I will say, Jonathan Nolan's other version, way, way worse. Like, way, way worse. I will not defend it against what Chris Nolan did here. But, like, the core pieces, the Coop watches 23 years of life go by as he sobs, that's in Jonah's script, you know? And, like, all this stuff with the family. Mal, I was thinking about what we talk about all the time when we talk about, like, you have to show the Shire before you show what's worth saving. So I don't know that like the death bull dying planet, right? There isn't that like, you know, nice tilled earth of the Shire, but there's Murph and there's Coop and there's that relationship. And that's what the first hour is like really invested in. I mean, sorry, Tom, not you, but like, you know, that's what the movie's really invested in showing. What is your name for Tom? That's the real Spielberg sort of aspect of it. That's the heart of Jonathan Nolan. And so I love that Chris Nolan, I think this is by far his most emotional movie. And for that reason, I think it's only grown in my appreciation. Yeah, I think those aspects of it are the ones that just work their way into your heart and stick with you. And you can think about it even when you're not with the film. But then really just it's a satisfying experience to be back with the movie. Looks fucking great on 4K. Can't hear a goddamn thing, as is so often the case with Nolan movies of this era. The IMAX stretches look amazing, and my ears, I can't process it. But to your point, Joe, I think as a matter of intention, as a matter of structure, and then as a matter of shorthand, the way that the, not even just like the vast and the massive, the single biggest thing, will the species survive? Will the human race survive is a story that we explore through the most personal and intimate relationships. A family. A lost love in Amelia and Edmonds' case, right? Or Dr. Brand as a father to Amelia, Dr. Brand, right? We have that family relationship, but mostly, most of all, of course, Coop and Murph. And then you have these things like two of the three members of this very podcast love Carhartt. We wear a lot of Carhartt, right? This is one of the all-time great Carhartt jacket runs in the history of story. And right now, you can get a pretty similar. That exact one is basically impossible to get. You can get a very similar one right now. Carhartt Work in Progress website sent you guys the link last night. When Murph is wearing that jacket, despite everything that has happened, as a way to carry her father with her, it's just that perfect little touch. Do I understand how exactly the quantum data glimpse from inside of the black hole is conveyed to Murph through the second hand of the clock? No. Do I need to know? What I need to understand is that, A, he gave her that watch. We're going to compare, right? B, she went back for it, and C, he knew she would. Like, that's what we need to get, and we do. We understand that on a soul deep level. And that's why the movie sticks with you. Van Drey. I don't know. I'm listening. Any thoughts on that Carhartt jacket? Well, no. I mean, I think the Carhartt jacket is fire. You know what? I like to – I just like to feel – I'm a workman with it. I put the Carhartt on. I come in here to – I'm a working man's podcast. I come in here to give takes. You know, man – No free ads. You know, it's – everything to me in all of these movies is just about, how the filmmaker can make you desperate for the thing to happen. You remember at the end of You've Got Mail, and, you know, he walks over, and she goes, I really hoped it was you. I wanted it to be you. I'm like, we did too. Like, we did too. We knew that it was going to happen. We knew that it would be. The movie is in making us want them to get together. And so by the time it's different, it's one thing to do that with two people getting together. It's another thing to do that with someone solving, essentially, shout out to Reed Richards, the problem of everything. Right. So he can get closer to his daughter. It's so many things in there, like how parents have to let their children go. There has to be a sort of distance that you put between you and your kids so that they can grow older and experience their own adventures in the world for themselves. But then in older age, you come back to those kids and they steward you off into the thing, just like you brought them into the world. That happens in this movie twice in the reverse because then she goes off before he does and he is left to go out into the world. she births him again the movie is like like subverting and moving around and rejiggering all these things about family and using the math of the universe and the gravity of love to sort of do it it's great but it does take a commitment like it does i i think also all the things that we've watched and talked about in you know in the 12-ish years since this movie came out and also like Mallory specifically I would say in our time podcasting together really helped inform my enjoyment of this watch like thinking about Yoda saying we are what they grow beyond in The Last Jedi when Coop is talking about becoming your children's ghost and stuff like that or the ghost of your children's future or Carhartt let's talk about it The Last of Us when inside of this movie where they're constantly talking about like the concept of saving the species versus saving your own kin. I mean, the irony of Professor Brand saving his daughter, putting his Nepo baby daughter on the ship and saving her future while lying to Coop about whether or not he'd be able to save his daughter. Not irony, but just sort of like Brand. The monstrous lie, you know, which Real Night of the Seven Kingdoms is all the inside of this movie. But like, that idea of like, who is worth saving? Who is us? Inside of this. And is us humanity as a species? Or is us my daughter? Right. You know? And who gets to decide that? Yep. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Also, let the record say that Joel's jacket is a Flint and Tinder, not a car heart. But I really appreciate the comment, nonetheless. You're a heart-ish. I didn't know that either. They may not have a couple of those. She's been on a real trucker jacket journey in recent years. Please carry on. Yeah. So the movie, for the most part, for most of the movie, the film, the villain is just shit. It's just stuff. It's like climate change, dust, eating a lot of corn. Okay. Different corn situations. Corn sandwiches. All that stuff's going on. I'm not sure. Fritters. Fritters. They're having fun time with eating corn. So corn's the only thing left. Yeah. Okay. So. R.I.P. Okra. Yeah. But after this, then space and time becomes the villain. And then the movie makes a very direct decision to insert a human adversary. And this is always the part of the film that I enjoy, but wonder why they did it. Oh, the man part? Yeah. So I get it. I understand it. right? But to insert an unhinged Matt Damon into the movie Surprise, deploy a surprise Matt Damon. Incredible. Incredible. It worked. It's fantastic and all of that. But I just wonder why when the stakes are so high and we are already that invested into everything, I wonder what the thematic purpose of a human, somebody that is just that fucking crazy. What was the purpose of that? So this is my favorite part of the movie. This is fascinating. This is, we can kind of tip a category pick because you just mentioned villains. So my pick for one of our recurring categories is who the real villain of this movie And this is where I thought we could talk about some of this Let just do it here My pick isn Dr Man isn Damon character Man Say his full name. It's Dr. Hugh Man. It's always a shock to learn what the character's first names are in this movie. Other than Donald. Hugh Man. Who's the humanity man? We see you, Jonathan, and Chris. We see you guys. We get that one. Oh, man. Remarkable. The best of us. Hugh, man. It's perfect. My picks for, like, the villain, and I think the man, some of what we learn about Dr. Brand, Michael Caine's character and the choices that he's made to keep what he's kept secret about Plan A, but mostly man, is, like, the way that the survival instinct, the idea of a survival instinct in the movie that is necessary for us, I think imperative for us to understand how that could become warped. Like, if everybody in the movie is doing something heroic in order to save everybody or make sacrifices, then I don't think it lands as fully for us when Coop makes the choices that he does at the end. Well, I really agree. What I like about what happens after Mantle bullshit is, like, what Bran goes off to do and what Coop goes off to do is, like, follow their hearts, right? Like, you know, she's looking for good old Wolf, Wolf Edmonds. Is he alive? I don't know. That's where she goes. We see his little name patch at the very end. Oh, he's dead. No, he's dead. But, like, you know what I meant was in that moment. Right. Is he alive? We're not sure. Right. So, like, she goes off in pursuit of that. He goes home in pursuit of, like, trying to make good with Murph or do something with Murph, blah, blah, blah. But in doing those two selfish or emotionally motivated things, that's the future, right? Brant establishes, like, you know, a homestead, a place for them to land, and Coop goes to the Interdimensional Space Library and saves humanity, you know what I mean? But they do it because they're doing something not altruistic, but ultimately emotionally selfish, which I like that complexity inside of it, you know? I think the idea that the we've all said, like, it's so human and human impulse many times, and that's obviously were just like kind of the core strand of DNA that makes this movie function and the story function. And I think the fact that like the survival instincts and the selfishness fuel both the heroic acts and the villainous acts, and it's two sides of the same coin, is to me the most interesting part of the story and what's so crucial, especially because we have evolution inside of that. Koop is like, I'm going home. I'm going to go home, right? He makes that choice, to your point, Joe. But then still the great, I mean, God, the look on Amelia's face when she realizes, like, oh, it's not just the robots who are dropping. Like, you're going with them when TARS is, like, see you on the other side. You get to chill because he has this, the thing that has driven him the whole time is, going to do this thing to save my kids. Going to do this, I have a note on the time dilation and whether we should go down to Miller's planet because of what the math would mean for my kid. Every time, every decision he makes along the way is about getting back to his family, including literally saying, I'm going to go get back to my family. But at the end of the day, when it all comes down to it, he's willing to risk that outcome to allow everybody else to survive, which is the exact opposite of what man, the guy we have heard throughout the whole film, is the best of us and remarkable and led all these people to go on the scariest and starkest journey in human history. I love so much in the man-coop fight when Coop says you fucking coward and it is such a withering indictment and man just says yes yes yes and so I love that we get that because that feels really true to me that that would be something that pulled the fear of like wanting to push the button so someone came to rescue you that people would do that and maybe the people who were supposed to save us I don't know that the movie works without that. It might not. It might not because it's still a movie, which is always the thing. I mean, it is. It's still a movie, right? It's still a movie. That's a great point. In the movie, the thing still has to happen where the guy goes, oh, I did this. So it's still a movie, and then there's actual utility for this character. But when I'm watching it, that's the part that feels most like a movie beyond Christopher Nolan and like, you know, the three or two or three lines of weird exposition. Oh, is that the magic shoe? The shoe that was was rumored to be the thing. And then guys, yes, this is that. And that's it. It's like he does it in every movie. I don't like I. So obviously I talk about this all the time. the clean slate is the that's the OG of this that's the number one oh you mean the clean slate the device that lets you change everything I'm like what the fuck is it can we see somebody you gonna do it just like that Chris he's like fuck we gotta get the bang but that's the part of it that felt most like a movie the rest of it feels and this is how I fall into things like I am a film lover everyone knows it's very hard for Van to be critical of a movie, Van. It's very hard for me to be critical of a film. I go into the movie to like the movie and you have to make me not like it, right? You have to make me not come out and say this is the best thing that's ever been made. Like, you have to make that happen. You have to impose that upon me. So when I'm watching the movie even now, I'm legitimately falling in and surrendering to everything about it. That is the part to where I'm like, oh, this is kind of like an episode of Star Trek. Not in a bad way, but, like, that's the part that I most see as being sort of ordinary. I want to get to our categories, but I want to – I think this is a really good way to talk about – just to note really quickly a couple influences on the film and then what the film is influenced. Because, like, 2001, when Nolan talked about 2001 A Space Odyssey's influence on this movie, which when you go see Project Hail Mary, you'll see immediately that movie's influence on that movie. Like, that is the ur-text of space cinema for so many modern filmmakers, right? Like, when he talks about it, he talks about it as, like, this experiential thing that just sort of washes over you. You have to surrender yourself completely to the experience of that movie. And so that there are things inside of this movie like, you know, the visual of Gargantua or the space library or whatever the case may be, or the taking hand on the watch that you just have to sort of like, that is, you know, similar to Inception, we're not dealing in a place of easily explainable reality. We're just sort of dealing in element, I mean, it's certainly a tenet, which we will get to eventually, but like, you know, we're dealing in sort of how are the human emotions selling it, which is something Mallory has already said. But to think about 2001, to think about the right stuff, which is an incredible film that I don't think enough people watch, But when you look at the opening of this film, like, especially his test flight that is his nightmare that opens the film, that is very much, like, the right stuff. That's the grounded sort of, like, what can man on the ground achieve sort of aspect of this movie. That is the DNA of it. But I'm most interested, I don't want to burn, like, whatever we're going to say about the Odyssey at the end. But I'm most interested in this movie thinking about what Chris said when he came on to talk about Dunkirk with us and this idea that, like, so many of Chris Nolan's movies are about a guy, people trying to get home. Yes. And that it's all been leading to the Odyssey. And that's not true of every movie. But, like, Chris made such a good point. And, you know, like, if you think about Cobb and Inception or whatever. And so you think about Coop on this journey, and for the history of space sci-fi, space exploration and, like, maritime exploration have been linked. That's what the, you know, the USS Enterprise is, you know, space, the final frontier. Like, this has been an ongoing, you get lost in space, which is just, you know, Robinson Crusoe in space, essentially. So Stanley Robinson in space. So, like, the idea that this is, like, a proto-Odyssey for him, the way in which they, like, drop it on these planets that have frozen clouds or time-dilated oceans, like, these are, like, dropping on the various magical islands on the way. And the reason why a man is, a Dr. Chew man is so important is, like, spoilers for the Odyssey. Broad-stroke spoilers for the Odyssey. I think you're okay. Yeah. there's a reason Odysseus makes it home and none of the rest of his shipmates do. Right. And there's a reason why there's like characters like, uh, you really kiss. I think like you have to contrast what makes an Odysseus, someone who can get home versus his shitty second in command who does X, Y, and Z. And so I think you need that contrast of like, what is the, what is a Dr. Hugh man? Also him saying, him saying no one has ever been tested the way that I tested. when, to Van's point, Romley was just kicking it on that spaceship for 23 years by himself with, I mean, you know, with a robot. But, like, you know, it's just like, that's not true, Dr. Hugh, man. I don't know if it's a delusion. He was up there by himself. He went to sleep a couple of times. But... He had to think that they would come back. I love that performance in that scene because he's obviously slightly insane when they when they get back he's obviously holding it in he's like seeing ghosts he's in his pajamas now no more spacesuit like he's like legitimately he didn't answer the door in some he's like he's fucking now like he's got some coffee i'm glad you got some back i didn't think i would ever see you guys again so no i get what you guys are saying and you guys are absolutely right but this also might be for me it might be indicative of the esteem that I hold the movie in now the movie almost and Project Hail Mary felt like this to me too I was just a ball of emotions the movie was so effective on me I think I'm going through something it's a wonderful film but I fall into Interstellar like I believe it it's a documentary to me I don't know why I fall into Interstellar. Everything that happened seems so genuine, even with some of the stuff that we've talked about. But everything, all the points you guys are saying, they're all landing. Mal, anything you want to say about the Odyssey Beat? Do you want to save that for the end? I know it's our closing category, but you covered it. But, I mean, the journey home, the quest home, is certainly the thing that revisiting Interstellar now, I think, makes us feel like we are readying and preparing for the Odyssey. And, obviously, also spending time with Matt Damon as Hugh, ma'am. Great stuff. And Anne Hurthaway. That's right. I'm curious if Chris will talk about this in the many interviews he'll do around the Odyssey, but, like, the details, like, every minute on Miller's planet is seven years, right? Isn't that the case? Every hour, yeah. Every hour, sorry, yeah, that makes more sense. Every hour is seven years, what did it cost us, decades. But, like, you know, Odysseus is detained for seven years on Calypso's Island, or, like, you've got Penelope's faith that he would return in Telemachus' and, like, anger in his father's absence. Or, like, if you just watch the trailer, you have Anne Hathaway saying to Matt Damon, like, promise me you'll come back, and he says, what if I can't? Like, how is that not the beginning of this movie also? So I'm just, I'm so excited. And then he passes her a brown and tobacco custom Carhartt Detroit trucker jacket. Yeah, and she wears it over her. Greek mythology. It really is all this one story. Absolutely. Yeah. I think I've already covered sort of like what was different about Jonathan Nolan's version and Chris Nolan's version. But I will just say I really love it when these brothers work together. I think they make great shit. Okay. Anything else you want to talk about before we get into these sort of superlative category things that we do? I guess just quickly like where we are in the reconnaissance at this point. Oh, yeah. But that feels like kind of key context, right? This is his first film after the Oscar-winning Dallas Buyers. It's the same year as True Detective. So this is the peak. This is the peak moment for him in terms of a second peak, a new peak, in terms of him doing stuff that really recalibrated how people thought about him as a performer. I have a thought here, and I want us to put our content culture brains together. Has anyone reinvented like this? so think about it cheers so so so think about it in this way so matthew mcconaughey explodes onto the scene a time to kill you know all right all right dazed and confused almost in a brad pittish sort of way not quite like brad pitt he comes on he's beautiful and all that stuff but then you have movies where matthew mcconaughey is a serious hollywood leading man then something happens throughout the 2000s that's he mcconaughey becomes sort of a joke like he becomes completely becomes sort of a joke and other guys start to like ramp up this cool factor the oceans 11s movie movies come out brad and george are hollywood cool guys way up here other stars start to develop vigo mortensen comes up and becomes this huge box office star but also a guy that's just in like dead-ass cool movies like A History of Violence and Eastern Promises, all of this stuff starts to happen and Matthew McConaughey starts to become a guy that no one fucking takes seriously anymore, right? Then he just completely nukes that with four or five different choices Mud, into Dallas Buyers Club, into Interstellar, into True Detective and he's Zenith and Apex's oh I'm sorry Magic Mike he's he doesn't like even come back he creates a new Matthew McConaughey and I'm trying to figure out if anybody has ever done that in that way I'm trying to think of somebody who has done it that way I don't think there's a direct comp I think you have someone like Downey whose personal life sort of blew up his career and he came back but didn't like i mean being tony stark is very different from being like chaplain so like he did come back to do something different but like um i don't know that i would i would call it the exact same thing colin farrell is one of my favorite career trajectories right because colin was like this like heartthrob leading man and then he was like and then he was also sort of considered he made alexander like he was considered a joke for a while he did like swat you're just Like, what is Colin Farrell doing? And then he becomes, like, an actor's actor, you know, when he comes back. I mean, he's huge Colin Farrell. I'm thinking about horrible bosses. I don't know why. I'm like, because Winston-Cutty, I didn't know he could be that funny, and then there's the whole Professor X joke and all that stuff. I'm thinking about horrible bosses. I just think that, like, what McConaughey did is he just started, like, when he does Magic Mike, when he does Mud, which is so good, When he does, like, Bernie, you know, like, he does a bunch of things where he's just sort of like, I don't give a fuck at this point, and I'm just going to do what's really interesting to me. And so it becomes less of, like, a calculated career and more of a, like, well, if you're going to, like, not take me seriously anyway, I might as well just do what interests me. And then in doing so, turns in this true detective role, which I will always swear really won him the awesome. Dallas Buyers Club is incredible, but I don't think he wins that Oscar if True Detective didn't come out right at the same time. And just sweep him up in this moment. And then watching him in this is so wild because I would say even now McConaughey is still you know. He did enough to win his career. He went back. Just say it. He's doing the I made a joke about it. He now has reverted not reverted. I don't want to diss him. What I'm saying is The guy who he was at that time was probably closer to who he actually is. And so he doesn't really want to be taken super duper seriously. You can see him being an Uber Eats detective, like, on commercials. Like, that's a thing. And, like, the Cadillac car guy, like, there's a cynicism about Matthew and an everyman-ness that probably is more genuine to who he is. well this is why Nolan said he wanted to cast in this film because he wanted an everyman but I just don't think that like age aside I don't think Matthew McConaughey now is leading a big Christopher Nolan movie the way that he was in that very moment I don't think let's pretend he's the same age now I don't think Nolan's casting him in this role I say that with love and affection I love him too and I think he's great in this movie I just remember a time when everybody kept waiting for it to happen and he tried the romantic comedy thing for some reason people, some of them worked but then everybody just went okay well Matthew McConaughey didn't really you know, he'll be like a leading man but not like anything big and then it came back and it was like, he goes nah I'm here, like yeah I got this, maybe there's a Nick Cage comparison in there some way but not really, no cause Nick just doesn't give a fuck Nick is, let's check back in after Spider Noir, I guess so alright let's do our categories as always every category starts with the Christopher Nolan movie quote why so serious funniest line or moment from this movie Van Lathan what do you have to me the funniest line I have to say it the funniest line is I don't know why this makes me laugh so much but John Lithgow just being pissed off that baseball is dead when the whole world it's like where's my hot dog I come to a ball game I want a hot dog I don't eat popcorn at a ball game first of all we do number one and then secondly dudes there's no more food we used to have real ball players in my day they didn't go on strike my man the world is ending can you enjoy that I always laugh at that because that's how my dad would have been pissed off at the end of the world that was one of mine where you like cut away and it says the New York Yankees. Like that's just like very funny. In Jonathan Nolan's original script, what happened is there's like a broken down van and there's like a bunch of ball, like what looked like minor league ball players or whatever. And then like Coop stops to fix their van and like he gets it going for them. And then you see on the side of the van, like New York Yankees, like they're in like a, just a shitty van and that's how they get to their games. But like, that was always the joke of just sort of like 10% of the population is left. And, and that's why this is where the New York Yankees are playing. Mallory, what do you have? That makes me think about an endgame, you know, the therapy scene, and it's like how much we miss the Mets. Let's get, like, a non-New York baseball team in one of these apocalyptic scenarios. My pick is TARS. Ew. I just think that we need the levity that TARS provides throughout the movie because it is a very, very intense movie in a number of different respects and moving in beautiful and profound ways and just, like, scary, high-tension ways. And so I love the through line of how are his settings calibrated, whereas his honesty setting, you know, 90%, absolute honesty isn't always the most diplomatic, whereas his humor setting during takeoff, et cetera. And, like, I love the payoff that we build to at the very end in the, like, Homestead Museum on Tinkering. Yeah. When Coop is restoring TARS. And he's like, all right, we're going to actually go to 75. Okay, no, we got to take this down. Do you want to go to 55? It just makes me chuckle. Great. I think these are my picks. I think also Coop saying you told him I liked farming to older Murph is really, really good. for me, it's when Damon, Dr. Hugh Mann I mean, Dr. Hugh Mann is the funniest part of this whole movie honestly, but like when Dr. Hugh Mann is gearing up to give his big speech, there is a moment and then the whole thing just explodes on him iconic, that's genuinely iconic, I love that, that's a great thing you know who's underappreciated? I'm sorry no, go ahead, Bill Irwin yeah, oh my god I don't know why, he's underappreciated remember My Blue Heaven? this is my he's dancing around in my blue heaven and like he's like he's got rubbery I don't know he's just underappreciated like he doesn't get but like Rachel Rachel getting married also he's like so good in that movie he's gonna be in the Odyssey that's right and I don't think it's been announced he's playing but I think some people are suspecting he's playing in like Polyphemus or something like that oh hell yeah he's doing like a like a mocap performance but yeah Bill Irwin that would be perfect sorry you were saying you were saying Renner's And I always say, it's just one of these, like, the line is delivered in a way that only Matthew McConaughey could deliver the line. And so I think it's the way he's delivering it that makes me chuckle more than the language itself, though it is also the writing is amusing. And the parent-teacher conference scene where he's like, you're telling me it takes two numbers to measure your own ass, but only one to measure my son's future. And the way he says it. now again we say this with the self-awareness of being people who record routinely three hour podcasts want to own that there's something about the way that Coop stretches out every word to like the amount of time it should take to say seven words where you're like that's also why the movie is two hours and 49 minutes but I find it hypnotic and very pleasant honestly this is like a there are so many so Damon the way that Damon's deployed in this movie, the way that Ellen Burson's deployed in this movie, like, there are just great uses of, like, powerhouse actors inside of this movie. And then you put David Oyelowo in this, like, principal role and I was like, what the fuck are we doing here? David Oyelowo, like, this is the biggest waste of absolute talent you have in this movie. I feel like, early on, maybe this wasn't early on, but remember David was also in, he was also in Planet of the Apes. remember he was in Planet I forgot that I feel like he was just trying to get his face out there yeah yeah he hadn't done like Selma yet or anything like that so he wasn't like it but like when you young yeah young Timothee Chalamet is there and you're like yeah he was a baby like whenever he was getting started but I was like Timothee Yellow Elf you didn't know what you had here man anyway okay next category is you mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger darling. Sickest set piece, Van Lee. Oh, man. So, look, there are a lot of them that are sick, but... Okay, so what counts as the set piece here? Alright, because... Whatever you want. Whatever I want? Alright, now, all you guys are gonna go... Some of you guys are gonna go wormholes, some guys are gonna go black, whatever. Man, the fucking Mavericks, Chasing Mavericks, Wave, Water, Planet, Hole Joint is It's fucking terrifying to me. Like, that entire joint is so, I feel so minuscule. I am so scared for them. Even when I watch it now, like, just the way, those are mountains. Get back to the ship. Whoa, what the fuck? That entire thing is just high octane, man. And that's just something Nolan's really good at. And I think, I mean, this isn't my Zimmer answer, but I'm, like, I don't mean to, like, blow the Zimmer. category later, but, like, the tick-tock on the score. So good. I'm a sweating bullet in that whole sequence. You can feel how heavy, like, the gravity is on the, oh, it's just like, oh, my God. This is my pick as well. I do think there are a lot of candidates for this category, but that this is, like, kind of clearly the winner. It's one of the most iconic and indelible visual sequences from the film, and I think it's also one where a lot of the core character impulses and beats and the science aspects are beautifully captured. Like, this is such a key stretch for the time dilation, which I think probably we'll all come back to in other categories. But, you know, even something like thinking about, like, the descent down to the planet and this question of, like, you know, the idea of the air break, right, that Coop is going to try, because, like, the fuel conservation is key and every second counts. And the question of, like, do you want me to turn off the feedback? Coop's like, no, I need to feel the air. And you're like, we're watching it. We're getting to another category. like we're watching a great man at work. And then it's like, it doesn't matter. It's not enough because the scope of the thing they're facing is so gargantuan, so Titanic. I love that, to your point, Van, that recognition, that beat where he's like, we're in the middle of the swell. It gives you like something as kind of like grounded and documentarian as like you can feel that way watching 100 Foot Waves on HBO, right? But then you take this to these genre places. I love the moment where Amelia realizes after they find the beacon, they find the wreckage. Oh, this just happened for Miller. Right. Just happened. That is such a key aspect. That's nut kick. It helps us understand. Yeah. It's crucial. It helps us. You can say one hour, seven years. We can get back to Rahm on the ship and he's like 23 years past. something like understanding that the reason they didn't know things had gone wrong is because it had just happened here, even though all this time had passed for them, is I think really crucial. When you re-watch and you can sort of like see where her ship crashed, like, you know, in sort of that massive wide shot. Did you know, this is a fun fact I learned from this movie, did you know the phrase fly by the seat of your pants comes from like aviators using the vibration in the seat of their airplanes to guide them as they go? No. Or if I did, I've forgotten, but I love knowing it. I feel richer for knowing it. He wanted to fly by the seat of his pants. That's great. I think also the seeing, looking and seeing just the wave of water, that's like one of the more inception-esque visuals to me in this movie where you're just like, you see something that allows you to understand the physical space and the reality of where you are and what the characters are facing instantly, and it's the best. You won't forget it. You won't forget it. I would say also inside of that, when you see this robot that you thought you understood how the robot moves, it's like level up. It's incredible. Two things I'll say. I said we all just did that. Yeah. Because in the movies, I was like, oh, shit. All right, two things I'll say real quick. One is how when you get on that planet and that planet's water, once again, that feels kind of safe. The reason why I feel safe is because, like, when we see planets that are barren and don't have any life, when we think of planets that are barren, we don't think of planets covered in water. We think of the Earth as being a planet that can sustain us because it's covered in water. So that you land and the planet's water. Oh, this is Earth. Like, the water, they might have fucking fish and fucking, I don't know, dolphins might come around saying hello to you, whatever. But then the water on that planet, being the predators, being the thing that makes the planet uninhabitable, just automatically you're scared. On the backside of that, there's a profound statement that the movie continues to make about how we experience things with each other. If you've ever talked to somebody that's been through something really traumatic, they always say it feels like it was just yesterday, especially for like a time. they always go i know that's been a lot of time for you but it feels like it just happened to me it feels i am still connected to this event like in a way that signals immediacy and so when you have three different people when they leave there like they almost could have saved her something just happened to her while it was 23 years for this other guy because you also hear that as a human being. This one month where I was stuck in this trench or doing this thing, it felt like an entire eon. So all of that stuff, the same event, how they experience it differently, just kind of mirrors our experience here with different things that we go through. I love that. I mean, it reminds me of like the way I've talked about time since COVID and the way COVID just completely destroyed my understanding of how time progresses. We're in 2006 and I'm just sort of like, yeah, but COVID was yesterday. COVID was just last year. And that's... Trauma. Okay. You either die here or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Who is the real villain of this movie? Van? We already talked about this a little bit, but do you want to... Young Coop. Not Young Coop. It's young Murph. Young Murph? Young Murph is the real villain of this movie. Young Murph. If it was up to young Murph, we'd have been eating corn fritters until the astrophage killed the sun, okay? It was like if it – oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, no, spoilers. Take that out. I'm not bad. It's a premise. I think you're okay. It's a premise. Young Murph and her pluckiness. That's the real villain arc of this movie. it's her getting over the plug classic young murph and her plucking is hey murph guess what daddy gotta go save the species okay he might not be around to help you braise your hair okay that daddy gotta go save the species like yeah daddy gotta go get on the crab the pile i know i just it's hard for me i'm getting older okay i never had any kids so maybe this is something that, you know, it happens with kids. But when I look at it now, if young Murph gets her way, we fucked. None of this happens because he wouldn't have gone. So this is the true villain arc is her stepping into her role as a genius and actually picking up the pencil and putting down the emotions and helping humanity figure out what we're going to do next. She was bothering the shit out of me early in the movie. I'm sorry. I love you. that's so funny um incredible take i think young murph is so good and you need you need to really feel when the incredible shot when coop is driving away from the house and the camera is placed on like the side of the truck as if it's like a rocket taking off you know what i mean and you have to like feel how painful this decision is for him and so like you just need that like you And he pulls back the blankets and she's not there. Yeah. She was hiding there before. Yeah. I don't know. I get the bit, Van, and I support it. It's not a bit. Even that, though. I can't support you. Even that, though. This also could be a black thing. You know what I told you? I told you to stay your ass in the house. I didn't tell you to get under the blanket. But he kind of likes that she comes. Yeah. He likes that she's there. This is the thing that I actually wish. that sometimes when I did my precocious shit that somebody went, oh, maybe we should kind of goose his curiosity a little bit. That's not what happened. But no, the movie to me doesn't really have a true villain besides time. Time is the actual villain of the movie, so I would give it to Youngblood because I don't like the pluck. I'm going to give it to Climate Change. Mallory Rubin, what's your one? I already said mine at the beginning. I think the way that that certain characters like Hugh Man or, in a way, Thank you for using it. You're welcome. The elder Dr. Brand, or even in some respects, like Tom, older Tom, or she's using to let his family go, even though they're dying by staying there. The way that this, like, aspect of a survival instinct, your choice, the threat of time and loss can be warped and allow you to make the wrong decisions. like when man, when Hugh Mann says of Dr. Brand when they're talking about that reveal he knew how hard it would be to get people to save the species instead of themselves I think that connects to what Van is saying and it's obviously true but then you build toward I've always really loved the moment where on the heels of that monstrous lie quote from Amelia Mann says, like he acknowledges it right he's not, there's no contention there he's like unforgivable and he knew that and he was prepared to destroy his own humanity in order to save the species he made an incredible sacrifice. And this is the kind of warped thinking. There's a version of that that's true, but then there's a version of it that leads to the warped, delusional thinking that man will then turn into, I can make an incredible sacrifice. I can kill Coop. I can do whatever I deem necessary and say it is under the guise of ensuring that the species perseveres, but really it's because I don't want to die. So I just think the way that the film explores that is fascinating and getting to see man as Cooper's choking and gasping for his last ammonia-free breaths. It's like, you're feeling it, aren't you? The survival instinct, that's what drove me. And trying to build a connection to this person he is seeking to kill in the final moments is so good. Also be like, I thought I could stick around and watch you do this. You know what I mean? And that cowardice of turning off his radio is what allows Coop to call for help and eventually be okay. Yeah, so that's great. What's your pick, Joe? You said climate change. Is that your actual pick? It's a great one. I mean, your man, your Dr. Hugh Mann quote about convincing humanity to protect the species. I also wrote Last of Us-esque, like, selfishness. Like, you know, or myopic. Myopy. Is that myopic? The word she? I think that, like, I mean, it's, the thing I love about The Last of Us, and I love about the Dr. Shewman stuff and stuff like that is like it's very understandable. Oh, yeah. But it's also like it's not who you hope you'd be, you know, when faced with these decisions. Exactly. But it's probably who you would be. That's exactly right. The perfect way to put it. All right. Are you watching closely? Most exquisitely gorgeous shot. The crowded category for this movie. Van, what do you have? Yeah, it's very tough, you know. Yeah. I personally love the first pass to the wormhole that's my pick guys that's my that's my favorite it just looks crazy it looks crazy you feel the weight of what's happening on screen in an interview that I watched with Jonathan Nolan which I referenced a lot when we did our prestige episode it's great, it's on YouTube it was at Sundance and it was like it's like a career retrospective of his career and like where science and his career meet. And so they were talking a lot about the science of the wormholes in this and how like Kip Thorne, like was very specific about how it should look like very, very, very specific. And it was like incredibly time consuming and hard for them to render it the way that he said, but they, they did it. And then there were like studies and later that corroborated that this was actually quite an accurate depiction of what going through. I mean, how could people know? I don't know. But, um, but they were talking about this, about the visuals. And then the, the one who was interviewing him was talking about the color in it. And she's like, she's talking about this color scheming before the wormhole and after. And he's like, here's the fun fact about both my brother and me were colorblind. Uh, which I don't know how broadly known that is. I didn't know it. Maybe it's widely known. I didn't know it. Um, and, uh, and he said, that's why you don't see a lot of red and Chris Nolan movies, which is not true tenant, but like is maybe like true across his, filmography. I don't know. But anyway, he was like, we're red-green colorblind. I was like, that's fascinating to me. Interesting. This is my pick as well, and I think to that broader science point, Joe, the stuff on the... Again, let me be clear. Not a scientist, not an astronaut, not a physicist. I don't know fucking anything about any of this. Not a mathematician. You own the telescope. But I want to have a telescope that I want to have to use. So, yeah. Everything with the wormhole here, there's the great ROM gives us a... It makes me think a little bit of Mr. Clark in Stranger Things, like the acrobat. Let's break out a pencil and a piece of paper and explain something very hard to understand in a very simple way. I always love that. Is there another way to explain rum holes? Then the pencil through the paper plate or a piece of paper, whatever it is. And, you know, that part of this on the science, the time dilation stuff, I mean, this is a all, I think, all time, like, Pantheon, Bootstrap, Paradox movie. We love talking about that stuff. It's really wonderful if you're interested in thinking about that. So these are the science aspects of the story that I love. The parts where I'm like, there's a line in the movie about recursive and nonsensical, and then I wonder if the movie sometimes falls into that trap. It's more about the, like, what is solvable or not solvable about the equation and the connection to gravity and what we can parse, et cetera. But, again, I'm fine with it. But this, did you guys go to the planetarium a lot when you were kids? Was this a thing that you loved to do? I used to go when I could. There wasn't much of one in Baton Rouge, but we tried. I loved. I'm, like, such an English social studies student broadly, and I was pretty, like, bad at math and science, but I loved going to the science center, and space was something I loved, and I loved going to the planetarium. This wormhole sequence where you're basically looking at, like, a gummy marble, like, as the sphere explanation unfolds, and then you move on this, like, bright river, it basically is like planetarium kid grows up to hit a bong with an astrophysicist. And I think that's ideal. This is why you like Avatar. This is why you like Avatar. As you know, the hallucinogenic drug sequences of the Avatar films are definitely my favorite parts of them. It's fantastic. I like the fact that they don't just go straight into the wormhole either. They, like, orbit it. You know, the thing that they do where they shoot Coop flying the craft and he's always on the side of something and they shoot it over the top, it just makes it feel a lot more rich. He didn't just go into the middle of the – they didn't pull out wide and then show the small craft going into the middle. That's not what they did. They put you into the experience of going into the wormhole, which was very innovative to me. By the way, I just figured out – because when you were talking about this telescope, I was thinking I'm going to go buy a telescope. this is the part of my life I'm gonna go get but I figured out why well I have a negative opinion of telescopes and I figured out why I used to know a guy when I first got out to LA and the whole thing with the telescope he would use the telescope he had a telescope on his balcony and the whole purpose of the telescope was like howling at hoes that was the whole purpose of the telescope it was like how's the peeping tongue yeah he would have the telescope and now I'm like, I don't want to use the telescope to look at You just gotta aim it up aim it it's plenty of other ways to look at it I know this was one of the first true real creeps that I ever met when my antennas started to go up in LA this guy has the nicest crib I've ever been to and we go there and he goes the telescope is for two reasons one is wooing women because you get a girl out there and you go, look through the telescope and then, you know, you're doing something together. And then you're like over a shoulder, you're adjusting. Yeah, you're doing the whole thing with the telescope. But he goes, also, you know, these curtains around here. And I was like, dog. I'm driving home. I'm like, did you hear what he just said about the fucking telescope? I can't hang out with this guy anymore. I know. I was going to get. If you go to someone's house and their telescope is pointed level or even worse, like down. Concerned. Now if you have a telescope in your crib, I'm kind of looking at you a little funny. I'm kind of like, what you using the telescope for? It's, you know. Maybe I won't get one. Well, now it's kind of quaint because I feel like now people do that with drones. Like now people just fly drones around looking for women undressed You right Have you ever had a drone come like hang outside your window I had that happen in Oakland and I just sort of like scary Very disturbing. How is this legal? How are you allowed to just sort of, like, drop a camera in front of my window? What the fuck? Horrifying. Some quick runners-up here. You mentioned, Joe, the, like, size perspective and how the movie reminds us of how small people are. I love how we get that in space and also on the terrain, like the kind of first zoomed out wide shot on the ice planet, on Hugh Mann's planet of Cooper and Mann. They're fighting and they're just like specks when we pan wide during their fight scene and they're tiny little specks in this like icy abyss on this giant kind of glacier, glacial scape. I love that. After Mann, your comedy moment after Mann is like speechifying and then explodes the endurance because he didn't properly. latch on and ignore it all counsel. In general, I think Endurance spinning like a pinwheel across the screen is just visually arresting and astonishing, but particularly the shot we get of Cooper and Amelia and Case and Tarza and their ranger on the left of the screen, and Endurance is pinwheeling, and the debris is flying around the ice planet is beneath them. That is like, it just looks so fucking cool, and when you got to see that back in the day at the theater or you get to watch it now in 4K, it's like, fuck, this is why we watch movies. It's just amazing. Quickly, Molly, did you have any stranger things PTSD when you realized that there are 12 spots on the clock that is the endurance? I'm always thinking of the heavy and the ticking clock and why it had to be 12. Always, always. And then I just love the, it's kind of like a twin, to the wormhole shop, but, you know, in this case, the black hole gargantua, when tiny broken endurance is moving toward gargantua, and that, like, amazing shot of light matter bending. And it almost looks like rivers of lava. Like, that looks so cool. It just looks so great. I mean, like, also part of this is, I mean, I don't know if this is, barring from someone else's category but like the the brand cooper handshake on each side of of that experience the way that she reaches out for him on the way in and then he reaches out for her on the way back fantastic great shit okay uh i can't remember to forget you the scene you think about the most i will say um not not just because i'm saving it for later but genuinely true i think about that brand love monologue the most. That's the one I think about the most. Maybe it means something more, something we can't understand. Maybe it's some evidence, some artifact of a higher dimension that we can't consciously perceive. I'm drawn across the universe to someone I haven't seen in a decade who I know is probably dead. Love is the one thing that we're capable of perceiving that transcends dimensions of time and space. Maybe we should trust that, even if we can't understand it. How hot do you think Wolf Edmonds was to inspire this had to be a 10. It had to be a 10. Who would you cast as Will Benjamin? Who would be there? Great question. So he has a beard. He has to be a hot bearded scientist. I have no notes. Who would play in 2014 who is a great hot bearded scientist? So I don't think he's as pretty as like a Clooney. Because you have Clooney and Gravity. I don't think he's that pretty. I think he is probably, let me see somebody. Is he a bearded Walton Goggins? Maybe not. No. I'm trying to. I love Goggins, but I love Goggins, but he's never going to deliver like scientists of the top tier caliber to be sent on this mission to save Earth. That's not his vibe ever. Oh, what's my man from Train Dreams? Oh, Joel Anderson. Is that him? I could see that being him. For sure. That's a good pick. Joel can grow a great beard. Did you see Matt Damon complaining about the fact that Chris Nolan made him grow a real beard for the Odyssey? He's like, can we do a fake beard? And Nolan's like, who do you think you're talking to? Grow the beard. Who do you think you're talking to right now? Grow your fucking beard. You're going to be out on the ocean for weeks on end. No glue is strong enough. No. I'll get the salt water? Come on. Mallory, what's the scene you think about the most? The first time I saw this and every time I revisited it, I am just shaken to my core. We've talked about this a lot already, but the dawning horror when you realize the time that was lost on the water planet. It hits so fucking hard. You have the pre-trip down calculus, so you in some ways are prepared, but it's like you can never be prepared. You can be prepared intellectually but not emotionally, And that is one of the core aspects of this film. And I think that's really centered effectively here. You know, you have this discussion like Plan A doesn't work because the people on Earth are dead by the time we get back, et cetera. So there's how are we, okay, let's do this instead of this. And how are we going to save as much time as we can? And then it doesn't matter. Everything happens with the tidal wave. They've got to let the engines dry. The time is lost. The Cooper brand argument after the wave crashes and they are realizing in real time, confronting in real time what this means and what is happening, what's this going to cost us, Brand, a lot, decades. And that argument they have, like, when he makes the, you know, you eggheads, you know, we're not prepared for this. And she's like, we got further than anyone in human history. And he says, not far enough. And now we're stuck here until there won't be anyone left on Earth to save. and she says, I'm counting every minute, same as you, Cooper. It's just like a perfect movie moment. It's a perfect scene. It's a very important moment for Amelia, I think, for her character. It's like everybody's carrying shit with them, not just Cooper, but we feel it so keenly because he's our protagonist and we do know what the math means and what he's left behind and who he's trying to get back to. And that agonizing conversation they have about, like, she basically has to explain, you know, time can stretch and it can squeeze, but you can't go back. It's just crushing down. You're just like the water. This is the realization and the crystallization of what we face, what the cost could be for the people on Earth, but also the stress of every decision that they make on the planet, in the ship, what every single move or mistake they make might cost them and cost everybody else is just, like, Titanic. So I think about that a lot. Also, this is so well said. There's also this tension between, like, he's a smart pilot, and she is smart for a pilot. She's dumb for an astronaut. Like, he's a mission guy. She is a science person. So there's a tension there in him just being completely, what are my parameters? What is this? What is this? And she's sitting down trying to think of things in their totality. she has to remind him at the end that there's also a cost for her emotionally because she's an answers person and he's a mission guy so he's used to tapping her for data and then moving on with the data this is a stupid answer that i'm about to give but the most absurdist scene that i always remember is just him going through like the black hole or whatever just just just how just how like i had no idea what was going to happen i still kind of don't know what happened the tesseract library i still kind of don't understand it and every time i watch the movie i hope to understand it more and it never happens i don't know he comes when i'm when i'm in the theater this was the part that i was like it's kind of like a you know like it was getting the head tilt i was like that because i'm like okay so he's out of his suit is this happening for real is this like something that's is this an allegory visually or like what's going on here and every time I watch the movie, I hope to get it a little bit more, and it's not what, I know that the, they came and got him, but like, it still doesn't make very much sense to me. He got himself. He got himself. He brought himself. So that's the bootstrap, the bootstrap paradox aspect of this that I think is kind of satisfying on the mystery box puzzle front. I don't, Will, like, does five-dimensional space manifesting as three-dimensional space so that it can be accessible? We had that primer earlier from Amelia of Like, maybe time would render as a canyon or a mountain. So, like, what shape would it take for Poop to be able to... Space library. Yes, a space library. I mean, it is a wonderful set of bookshelves in Merch Room back in the homestead. No question about it. Yeah. Yeah, that's all great. But this idea of, like, okay, we've been steering throughout the entire film. They, they, they put the wormhole here. The bulk feedings. These anomalies and these gravitational events and using gravity. So the idea that he is initially in this space and crying out to himself, to his kid, he's the one who delivered the message, stay, that young Mars decoded in Morse code. Because even then, in the climax of the film, his impulse is to say, don't do this thing. Don't wind up right here where you are. And then he has to recognize in real time, I'm the one who sent those coordinates so that we could get to NASA so that I could go. There's no they. I'm they. I called myself here. And this fulfilling circular aspect of that paradox. And then the other little detail is like, because Taurus is basically like, Cooper's like people, you know, the conversation about could we, you can't build this, we can't build this. In the future it is built by a more advanced evolved version of civilization that can, that only has a chance to evolve and advance because of the things that Cooper and Murph and Elliot. I love, I mean, as you know, I love a bootstrap paradox and I love that like it was always going to happen this way because it already did happen this way and all that shit I love. That part I like. Pushing the voice to move in the watch I'm less clear on. Here's my knock. Here's my knock. TARS has to be so stupid in that sequence. Oh this was a great note. TARS would be like what do you mean Coop? And Coop who's like a fly boy is like well don't you see this is how this works. I was just like I mean it's great that Bill Irwin's voice is there so that just like Coop muttering this shit to himself like you needed someone there. But I wish they had explained that TARS was slightly damaged and malfunctioning or whatever to help me understand why he was so stupid at that moment. But yeah, that's fine. All right, swear to me. This movie is PG-13, which means it could have exactly one F-bomb. And actually it does. This hasn't been true for a lot of our other Nolan movies, but this one, as Molly already mentioned, Cooper does say fucking coward when he's fighting Dr. Hugh Mann. but where else would you drop an F-bomb inside of this movie Van do you have an answer for this in the scene where they tell the yellow old tells him that his son is nothing more than a farmer my kid's going to fucking college you don't tell me about my kid because that's where it would have been dropped in my life you know what I mean my mom and my dad my kid's going to fucking college you know so that when i when i thought about it that's the scene where he he has a lot of rage especially for that lady that lady who actually maybe not even to david a yellow old maybe to her who doesn't believe that the moon landing is yeah you don't fucking believe we went to the moon or you don't believe we went to the fucking moon or just you gotta be she says all that you gotta be fucking kidding me you know it's something like that because her skepticism of all of that i guess is supposed to represent the the cynicism that you know humans have and scientific achievement at that point and all of that stuff like that and how there are some people that want to just like die on this barren sort of uh pine box earth and not go out and seek more and how that's actually been the thing that's always held us back and not necessarily you know whatever but um but yeah that's where a farm would have been perfect. Well, this idea that like David yellows is where caretaking generation, right? It's our job to just sort of like, so yeah, it's our job to tell everyone just be a farmer for now, get us through the other side. Don't, don't dream of anything else. You got to keep your nose to the grindstone, but also, you know, I have a different answer for this, but we have a category later of like what hits harder, like 12 years later. And I will say that like, uh, severely editing school books hit differently for me now. than it did in 2014. So, quote, challenging things I thought we all agreed. Like the fact that it's such a funny world that we live in now. I watched Indiana Jones fight the Nazis my entire life, right? And I watched, actually, in Last Crusade, them make an outright commentary on the burning of books. Maybe you should try reading books instead of burning them. And now all of this is mainstream. The Nazis are mainstream. The censorship where the books is mainstream, Indiana Jones lied to me. Mallory, where's your iPhone? I'll stick with my girl, Amelia Brand, here for a moment and just kind of continue through that stretch of the story on the heels of the arguments and the stretch to Anna Miller's planet where Cooper, who, at least at this point in the story, as we've discussed, this is an evolution for him, But at this point in the story, it's very much focused on what he wants and what he cares about in his family. And then Amelia is in a similar position. We should choose Edmund's planet, not man's. And Cooper's, like, literally on the other side of the exact conversation he had with Donald on the porch about, like, you know, just because you want it doesn't mean it's wrong like it might, right? And then Amelia goes. So Cooper makes the call. We're going to man's planet. and then Amelia has to just kind of proceed and goes and checks on the colony. Is it okay? And Cooper goes off and apologizes and she says, you might have to decide between seeing your children again and the future of the human race. I trust you'll be as objective then. And I think she should have said, I trust you'll be as fucking objective then. Because it would have been very well earned. Very well earned at that point in their relationship and in the story. I mean, her tone is giving. And I should say, I think the use of Anne Hathaway, Nolan's use of Anne Hathaway is so interesting because like putting her as Catwoman in The Dark Knight Rises when she was at like a very low point in her career, there was that whole period of time right before she won the Oscar for Les Mis, which is like it's Dark Knight Rises, Les Mis, and then this essentially. Like, there was that whole, like, Anne Hathaway likability moment where it's, like, Jennifer Lawrence is cool and Anne Hathaway is a drama school tryhard. It was just, like, really – you talk about character reinvention, like, career reinvention. It was just, like, a really weird patchy time in Anne Hathaway's career. So Cassie's Catwoman was, like, this huge controversial thing, and then I think she actually completely killed it. Was so good in that. Very memorable. Yeah, very good. And then she does Les Mis, wins an Oscar. And then she does, like, her being in this movie, I think, is, like, such a fascinating. Like, Jessica Chastain, not just because she's been in The Martian, but, like, Jessica Chastain, like, makes so much sense in this movie. And Anne Hathaway doesn't make a ton. Like, I would not think of her for Amelia Brand right away. But I love that she's here because that sentimentality that she brings to everything, which is so key to. like you believe in her intelligence but also there's just like an inherent sentimentality to an Anne Hathaway performance that really works. And there's like a level of empathy from her but also for her that we feel. Let me tell you who never had a what's going on with Anne Hathaway is Anne Hathaway. Me. Always wanted Anne Hathaway. She's great. I believe you were on the right side of history. I'm just saying not all the world's history. The Catwoman thing was super interesting because I never recoiled from it but I was like huh because remember now for me at least the cat women you know it was michelle pfeiffer and i just remember i was you know it was going crazy man it's like it's one of the most important things that's ever happened in the world you know and then just the casting of cat women i don't know if you guys there's a well i know you guys who am i talking to but that casting didn't drove sean young crazy like not to dis sean young but young, young, started going around the town. Lost her marbles. So it was like this big, huge deal, and it was a very understated casting. And then when you watch the movie, the first scene, you go, she's got it. Like, the first scene, the first scene, she's like, she's got it. She understands the role. She kicks her goddamn cane, takes the thing off. She's Catwoman. She's got it. But I did not think that she would nail it to that degree. When she does that, like, scream on a dime. Yeah, yeah. She's got it. Okay, my, so I was poking around sort of like a Murph thing, a Murph like angry at her dad thing to put my F-bomb in. That's a child. Hello, dad, you son. But no, not young Murph, but older Murph. But like, hello, dad, you son of a bitch is perfect and I wouldn't touch it. So I think I'm going to have to go to, those aren't mountains, they're fucking waves. Those aren't mountains, they're fucking waves. That's good. You know? That would be awesome. That's a great one. That's a great one. Yeah. That's no fucking moon is what that feels like. Okay. No one cared who I was until I put on the mask. Best use of Nolan Burst regular. And I should say, the other movies we've done, this has been a bit easier. Michael Caine is a constant. But in this, it's like Michael Caine, Anne Hathaway, and I guess we're counting Matt Damon, and Bill Irwin, if you want, because he's also in The Odyssey. But basically, before it was sort of like they've been in multiple. Now they've been in at least two. So what's your best use of a Nolan Burst regular in this movie, Van Lee? I'm still going Michael Caine. I know. I'm still going Michael Caine just because when you see Michael Caine in a Nolan movie, you know this shit is serious. Okay? He shows up, and it's time to impart some real wisdom onto the audience. It's Michael fucking Caine. This is very important now. The Michael Caine of my youth is very important to me. Dirty, rotten scoundrels. Nobody talks about this movie. This movie is fucking hysterical. Go watch the film. Okay? but like you move on and then i trust michael cain so much that when nolan is taking these big swings like michael cain as alfred and all of these academy award winning people in a batman movie i'm like oh michael cain wouldn't do it unless it was really serious so when i see him in this movie i know that there's a deeper reason for him to exist in this room and i'm like oh what's the mystery i think he did that for a lot of nolan movies for me so like Al Hathaway, all of these people, his ability to ensemble, we haven't really talked about it that much, but to get Casey Affleck to come in this movie and it's basically third or fourth or fifth wheel this bitch towards the end when he's kind of doing his thing at that point. But yeah, so to me, Kane is the guy. There's a lot of other obvious answers, but Kane is the guy to me. Yeah, Michael Kane reading Dylan Thomas, though I will say, like, does Dr. Brand know any other poem? It seems like he just knows that one poem. If you're going to know one, it's a good one for them. But I mean, I think it's the surprise use of Matt Damon here. I will just I was just watching a Ben Affleck-Matt Damon interview where Matt Damon was talking about the call he got to be in this movie, and that Chris Nolan called him and was like, hey Matt, you know that's saying like there are no small parts, only small actors. This is a really small part. But I want you to do it anyway. And I was just thinking about the way that, like, Matt Damon agrees to do this. Dr. Hugh, man, fairly, not part of any of the promo. A significant but relatively small part inside of this movie. But then gets the payoff of getting to be Odysseus, right, in the Odyssey. And I was thinking about Cillian Murphy showing up to be the Scarecrow for, like, two minutes in all of these Batman movies. and to be like 12th build in Inception and then getting to play Robert Oppenheimer, you know? Has this ever been discussed on any on any Ringer pod? I've never had a chance to bring this up. The tilling of the soil for him, like he's I looked at him as the big deal, right? And then he shows up as the scarecrow. I'm like, yo, is he settling into character, actor territory here? And then he comes back an exception he's like really doing the whole thing with nolan and then you know obviously picky blinders is a big deal for him but then he gets oppenheimer and i'm like it was all worth it he was he did his deal in the nolan on the long game he plays the long game like i don't know if if anyone's ever made that point before but i thought that with oppenheimer that like it really paid off for him being way down on the nolan list being a part of these big these big productions. Um, I promise you that I have examined every angle of killing. And it's going to come up again, Molly Rubin. What's your, what's your best use of, well, you said Matthew. My, my, my pick is Damon as well. And I just think part of it is the thrill of the surprise. I think part of it is that it's hard to like just exist inside of the vacuum of the film. So we have, you know, the context of him making the Martian the next year. And I love this idea of like, just right before he's Mark Watney and the fact that he is in this harrowing circumstance of like complete isolation and dire straits is part of why we root for that character. And here it's like the kind of noxious element of what we end up learning about Q man. I love the way that he, the way that he latches on to Cooper when he wakes him from his sleep and like presses his face into him. And that, that moment later there's like, I hope you never know what it feels like to, like, go that long without seeing a person and need to see a person that badly. And you're so inclined initially to be drawn to him that it is just so effective and potent when he betrays the viewer and the other characters. It's so memorable to me. I was thinking about that. I was thinking, like, casting Casey Affleck, Matt Damon, Matthew McConaughey, this, like, real, like, sort of, like, 90s guy sort of casting side of this movie, a Wes Bentley, et cetera. But, like, the, the, I would say that. I was like, oh, you cast Matt Damon so that we're inclined to trust him, and then the twist is so whatever. But I'm like, but he had already played Tom Ritzley. Yeah, so much as Ben Lester as villain. Courage Under Fire. You know, like, there are things to be. Yeah, school ties. But I agree with you. But also I was like, but why does that work on me when he's done that? I was thinking the same thing. Because he's like, he's still such a cool, we still think he's a cool guy. You know, he's such a, we keep, every time, his villain turn always works so well because we trust his face. Amateurs seek the sun, get eaten, power stays in the shadows. Stealth MVP of this movie that not enough people talk about. Holly Rubin. This is, I think I'm going to go with something you said at the top, Joe. Because, like, you know, we've talked on other pods about, like, the production design. Obviously, the planets look great, the ships look great, but that's not really, like, an underrated or understated MVP in this movie. I did almost do location scout, but I didn't, but I thought about it. It would be, I think, I mean, it's worth celebrating for sure. I'm going with the quiet, the use of quiet. Because the score is so propulsive and energetic. and in general the sound design and the deliberate sound design, whether it's very, like, orchestral or whether it's very deliberate, something like when Coop is on his floating journey and then all we hear is his rattling breath, but we're still hearing something. The moments when the sound is sucked out of the film entirely just allow you to feel for a second, delude yourself and trick yourself into thinking that you can feel for a second what it would be like to be out there. I think it's very effectively used and paired so memorably with the visuals. You have these close-up shots of the attempt to latch on to the endurance and the way the fingers are closing and we're seeing something that should be deafening and we can't hear a thing. It's just great. You could say Dylan Thomas here. We were just talking about maybe Dylan Thomas is the MVP of the movie. Bam, what's your answer? Baseball. I'll never argue Tell me why You got two different baseball scenes That's right That are two different They expose two different things About humanity The first baseball scene Is People watching baseball And they can't even enjoy it anymore Because they're comparing the baseball To old baseball They are trying to be the way that they were but they can't they have to leave the planet our time here is over they can't even enjoy the thing that they used to enjoy anymore because they realize that is not the way it really used to be the next time you see baseball the ball is hit and it's on the planet the ball does the whole thing we are now different and they use this game that's fundamental to americana like thematically to say, hey, we're not on this planet yet. We haven't figured it out. We're still trying to be as normal as possible, but look what happens to the ball as the ball is hit. Baseball. Tying those two scenes together to describe the journey of humanity from the cornfield to the centrifuge. This is a perfect answer. I love this answer. I also like I I've referenced it before but a friend of mine years and years ago wrote this incredible review of Field of Dreams where he talked about the way that time passes inside of a baseball game which I'm sure he's not the first person to ever talk about it but like the way in which like well it's different now because of the pitch clock right but like the way in which thank you so much it's different what are you talking about it's different because of what wow okay are you fucking kidding me Who does fun? Did I tell you to do that, Mina? Well, I was like, I was like, Mallory took me to a baseball game a couple years ago, an Oriole and an A's game, and she taught me about the pitch clock. Wow. But like, how time you, like, baseball used to be a game that like didn't have time limits, right? It's just sort of like the Indians can stretch or contract the way that they need to. And so like the idea of like, especially inside of the context of the story of Field of Dreams, which is a lot about time and going back to time and all this other stuff like that. Okay. My answer was either going to be corn, but we already covered that. A very versatile crop. Or I'm going to give it to Bill Irwin. We already talked about it. I think he was, like, physically on set operating TARS and K's. Like, the fact that he was just, like, there moving this, like, incredibly heavy, you know, droid puppet thing that was, like, 200 pounds. And then it gets digitally erased out of the movie. So you never know. You think it's a special effect. But, no, it's just Bill Irwin. Like, classically trained clown, like, moving this thing around the set. I just think it's incredible. And, like, you know, people will learn more and more about this when they learn more and more about Project Hail Mary. But like, you know, when it comes to like putting something real in the room and a performer in the room for an actor to respond to, you know, it's just an underrated part of all of these things. Okay. You're waiting on a train. A train that will take you far away. This is my favorite recurring Christopher Nolan category. Best dead wife moment. There's an easy answer, but Mallory Rubin, what do you have here? I got to say, I think it's probably just because we're midway through the series. but this is where it really just is like why are you funny it's always dead huh why why there are a couple moments obviously where the dead wife and dead mom is invoked they're all great they're all valid picks my pick is once again the parent teacher conference and the way that Like, that coop just goes for the jugular. Yeah, that's the one. You know, one of those useless machines they used to make was called an MRI, and if we had any of those left, the doctors would have been able to find a cyst in my wife's brain before she died instead of afterwards. And then she would have been the one sitting here listening to this instead of me, which would have been a good thing because she was always the calmer one. Great McConaughey moment. Also just, I burst out laughing. Just knowing that this category was coming, I just, like, laughed so hard. It is, like, very funny. And if you're thinking about this Nolan trope and tendency, it's comical in a different way. It actually is kind of, like, effective also in the movie as a way to use, like, continue to use personal pain to show us where society is and what that has cost. But, yeah, that's my pick. Van, I just want to, like, share with you the way. Like, we knew that this was, like, a trope inside of a Christian Nolan movie. but actually tracking it across every single movie. The way that he added both of the dead wives to the prestige, it wasn't in the book. They just, like, added two dead wives. So the way in which, like, you know, like, in Batman Begins, like, of course, there's, like, Martha Wayne, but there's also, like, Descartes has a dead wife for, like, no, Russell Gould has a dead wife for no, like, it's just put in, I don't know, it's just his favorite thing to do. Anyway, Van, do you have an answer for this? No, it's the same one. And it's like using the, you know, obviously there's like, you know, Inception, which, like, you know, we get to see. She lost it. Is she in reality or whatever? It's like, whatever. It's a whole nine. But in this one, the fact that we also learned the limits of technology through this, like, we use it to craft the whole world. And to know that he is also out, there's also some gender roles there. like he a man you don't go to the parent teacher conferences that's women's work so he's like so he's playing an away game already because he wouldn't have been there and he's only there because there's no MRIs there's only no MRIs because we lost all of our technology and we need more farmers that's perfect that's the only answer I have for that one so good alright see they won't fear it until they understand it and they won't understand it until they've used it clearest great man moment. This is something we've also been tracking across these Nolan movies. I'll just say that mine isn't under... I'm just going to repeat that Dr. Hugh man, there is a moment and that explosion that just feels like a real subversion of the classic great man speech that shows up in almost every Nolan movie. He's about to give it and then it just blows up in his face and I really, really love that. Van, what's your... I'm going unconventional here. The first time I realized Coop was a bad motherfucker is when he hacked the drone. like when he when he had to he hacks the drone and then they flying a drone around and i'm like you know that's the first time in the movie that i realized you know coop is something special hacks the drone flies the drone around sets the drone down loots the drone to take it for cards like he's like a little indiana jones himself i knew you guys would pick other stuff so i wanted to take that one because we weren't probably that's the first time i realized that tom wasn't going to make very good decisions when he's like I'm just going to drive off this cliff. Unless you tell me not to, Dad. You told me to keep driving, Dad. Right. Keep going. I'm calling Murph a dumbass with the audacity. All right. Okay, so obviously everything Cooper does, the drone, escaping from the water planet, the vesting man, ultimately, rescuing endurance, like docking to save endurance is a great one. The decisions he makes at the end, the ability to reach Murph across time, all of it. It's all great man stuff. The entire movie is a great man movie. Because of that, I think that even though it is not my favorite scene in the film, I think that the conversation between Donald and Coop on the porch is so necessary as a primer for why Coop craves these things and has this level of yearning in him. So, you know, I can't believe how many times the parent-teacher conference has come off the phone after that. Right. And they're kind of debriefing. Maybe that wasn't a great use of David and Yellow. That's why. It doesn't matter. He's gone. They're debriefing. And Coop's lamenting, right? He's like, we've forgotten who we are, Donald. Explore our pioneers, not caretakers. And then Donald's saying, you know, Tom's going to be fine. You're the one who doesn't belong. Born 40 years too late or 40 years too early. My daughter knew it, God bless her, and your kids know it, especially Murph. And then Coop says, we used to look up at the sky and wonder at our place in the stars. Now we just look down and worry about our place in the dirt. So all of that is just like it kind of allows you to accept that this person would do these things and behave this way and feel like he needs to do these things, not only for his kids, for the future of humanity, because he once was a pilot and had this horrible crash, but because it is something inherent to who he is and how he thinks about what has been lost about the human experience and his ability to participate in it. So that's my pick, that porch scene. Swigging some beers and talking about the stars. can you make beer out of corn? Because here's my question. Okra's gone. MRIs are gone. But we still have beer. Where are we at the hops? Yeah. I don't know. Can you? I'm going to add not a home brewer to the list of things. We should ask Riley. Riley brews his own beer sometimes. I mean wheat, but also rice, I think. Are there animals? They're not. there's no more animals are the animals gone I don't see any dogs I can't see any cows I mean I don't think they had cows they would be having a fucking steak are the animals gone and if there's corn why are the animals gone you can feed corn to the animals you shouldn't but you can feed corn to chickens why would the chickens have been gone if they had that corn they should be eating some chicken I guess they ate them all because they might have eaten all the chickens yeah pretty sad it's fucked up I didn't see anything Indiana Jones lied to you and there's no more animals. And by the way, that means that they can't take any animals with them. Is there a snake? Are the snakes fucked up? It's really sad. We didn't explore this world. How do you survive without animals in the chain? Also, you've got all these human embryos but we couldn't do a Jurassic Park sort of like animal embryo situation. Maybe they did though. Maybe when they went to the new place, they still have maybe DNA. I don't know how it works. Maybe they arced it out in some sort of way. Who knows? But remember, we got a new planet at the end. She took her helmet off and the whole night looks like that place is going to be you know, fuck it that we don't get to go to Yellowstone anymore. I guess we'll make a new Yellowstone. So it's still fucking sad, but whatever. alright who was regrettably miscast and who would you replace him with I'm taking Wes Bentley out of this movie with love and respect to Wes Bentley I'm replacing him with Killian Murphy and here's what we're doing we're making that character feel like he's a more important part of the movie so that when he dies unexpectedly on the water planet you're like ah! that's Killian Murphy because Wes Bentley makes no impact on this movie He's just, like, kind of here, kind of handsome, you know, kind of thinking about plastic bags floating around the air, whatever the fuck he's doing, right? And then he just dies. And so, like, in that moment when, like, when they rescue Bran and then he goes unexpectedly with the wave, like, it would have much more impact if that's a character we either, like, liked. If he had a relationship with anyone, you know, like, doesn't have to be romantic, but, like, he could have been, like, an old buddy of Coops or, like, something, like, some other connection. so that when they're like, oh, no, he died in that sort of, like, Rachel McAdams game night sort of way, like, it would have had some impact. So I'd say put Cillian Murphy in there. And then you have that nice version of, like, Cillian Murphy's in all the promo, you think Cillian Murphy's a big part of this movie, then he dies right away, and then all of a sudden you get a surprise Matt Damon instead, and it's just this nice, again, a not so great idea. Not a replicable sort of idea. I'm sad that, like, when people watch Interstellar for the first time now, they already know that Matt Damon's in it, so, But anyway Van what would you say What's the category again because you got me thinking about My whole trajectory with Wes Bentley I'm still I might be the world's last American beauty defender No you You and I we remember when you selected It in the in the mega movie draft Yeah we love We love to defend Kevin Spacey And we love to support You just did that I wasn't even thinking about that I was kidding I was kidding that was a joke I was making a joke. I was making a joke. But I do think about Wes Bentley and that plastic bag all the time. My primary Wes Bentley association now, after years and years and years of time on the Dutton Ranch, is Yellowstone. Oh, Yellowstone. Oh, is he a Yellowstone guy? He is. Oh, yeah. He's, to me, he's, I think a large part of the story orates around him. Yeah, he's a central figure in Yellowstone. That's very true. Fucked up character. Wes Bentley was another one where it's like American Beauty and you're like he's just gonna go and then it was like Four Feathers down down down and listen who was miscast who was miscast in this movie and who would you replace him with so I'm gonna say that Casey Affleck was miscast in the movie I don't I don't buy the anger and the whole nine of that stuff I don't get it I like I want one like a little swarmier bastard to be in there. As far as who I would recast him with, I'm trying to think. I don't think I ever answered the second part of it. To recast him from that part. I have to think about that, but Casey Affleck, every time he pops up in this movie it doesn't make very much sense to me. He's just, I know you want to do the Nolan movie, but to me, it looks like a much more of a, I don't know. he kind of throws the movie off a little bit when he's in it to me you want someone who like you would more readily believe would keep his family on a farm even though they're coughing to death yeah like I'm trying to think of somebody who I I do think Timothy Chalamet is good casting for a young one he was perfect but like I think they got the agent up good too cause like you know but I don't know Casey Affleck in this movie, I don't like him in very much stuff that he's in. I think that he has been good in a couple of things. But like, yeah, I didn't dig him in this that much. I kind of think who I'd replace him with though. Molly Rubin, who are you? I have two nominees. Kind of like one of them is a little bit of a similar yours was a much better version of this show, but kind of a similar like logic behind it. Topher Grace as Getty. There's just no impacts to this character and it would actually be nice if, I mean, like, it builds for, like, the kind of Yurika and the kiss and stuff, and I'm like, I guess there's a version of this where if Murph had a real, like, connection to somebody, that would be interesting, but even just the idea of, like, somebody in her work field other than Dr. Brand, who, you know, because the idea that she's, like, not going back home, um, because it's too painful and stuff, like, that just felt like really a genuine nothing character, so it's more about the character than the performance, but maybe there's something there, and then I will say, I don't totally get John Laskawa's Donald. Like, I don't know. It's not, like, wrong or bad. It just doesn't seem like the character is, like, a total match for what he can bring to the role or to a role, like, with his energy. So, I don't know. I don't know who I would suggest instead. Do you want someone who feels, like, more naturally like a farmer or? because my sense is like I don't know that Donald always was a farmer. We don't know exactly what his vibe was before Or do you want someone who like or you just don think this role is enough for John Lithgow to like sing his team into it He obviously has done so many like very serious and somber things, but I think when I see him, I, like, want to be able to tap into the, like, humor and the, like, spark of oddity a little bit more than we could do with John Lillier. Third rock from the sun, John Lithgow? I was just like, let John Lithgow be John Lithgow. You know? So, yeah. I don't know. It's interesting, I will say, that there are a number of contenders for this category, which is not always the case. Well, because I think they cast the movie really brilliantly with them, and then some of the other people, they just, you know, they wanted to have names. Look, have you ever seen Ricochet? If you want to see evil John Lithgow, go watch Ricochet. Oh, my God. Let me tell you. You've got to give me 10 seconds on Ricochet. That movie gave me, like, nightmares. I went way too young. No, it's not a horror movie. It's not a horror movie. It's a movie where it's basically Cape Fear with John Lithgow is this guy who has a grudge against this cop that Denzel Washington plays. He hires a lady of the night to come in and give Denzel Washington chlamydia. It's like crazy. It's crazy. It's evil John Lithgow at his best if you're not watching Dexter. There's like an integral latex glove. It was a movie that made me that movie, which I watched way too young, plus an episode of Captain Planet made me convinced that like people were out there trying to like get you hooked on drugs or give you diseases, but that you didn't have or whatever. And so we had when, when a dare came to my school when I was a kid, I was like so scared about that, that I wrote it down on like a question on anonymous question on a note card of like to ask them like, Hey, is someone going to get me addicted to drugs by just like injecting me with heroin or something like that? And they just, like, very kindly did not answer that really dumb question for me. But, like, definitely Ricochet was an inspiration for that. That movie fucked me up. Ed Harris. Ed Harris is the dad. Is he the right age? Would he not be? Oh. Ed Harris is the dad. Ed, like, Ed Harris. Make the role a little. I love that. Make the role a little serious, you know? He's not going to stand up and clap at the Oscars just because everybody else is standing up and clapping. it's my favorite thing make the role make the role a little serious you know Ed Harris as Pops right there they're about the same age they're about the same age I just saw him in that he takes weird roles I just saw him in that Glenn Powell movie what the fuck guys what the fuck is happening yo I have a lot of questions I have a lot of questions about it Ed Harris mostly is just wandering around being really proud of his wife, and I think that's a really cool role for Ed Harris right now. Okay, Nola, it's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me. Nola is not known for sexual content, but let's go ahead and try to excavate the hordiest moment of this film. You guys already mentioned my answer, which is a sopping, wet Matt Damon clinging to Matthew McConaughey upon arrival. Imagine you think you're never going to see a human face again, and what you see is the dewy, seasoned face of Matthew McConaughey just exuding an all right, all right, all right sort of energy. And you yourself are just sort of like wet and shivering in his arms. He's sort of like he threads his fingers through his hair. It's just a very tactile moment. I just wanted to support it, you know? Great book. Mallory, what's your answer? For me, it's the thought of Coop and Anne Hathaway's character turning that whole planet into their personal fuckpad. They got all time to get to work. Time to get to work. He takes the shuttle there. They've had the tension. They've gotten over their moonlighting phase. Now they can do the whole thing. That whole planet's their personal love den. They got to get busy right away. give us the sequel yeah when Murph said Bran she's out there setting up camp alone in a strange galaxy maybe right now she's settling in for the long nap if you know any by the light of our new sun in our new home go fuck her do you think that's what Murph said let's add that to the where we could have inserted a fuck quite literally go get some dad these are great I have a third I think powerful suggestion to round out the field here We've already all noted that our guy, Ram, is left alone for 23 years. And when they return, he's just in a bathrobe, hanging out. It's been a minute. And I think there's a version of this movie that feels more authentic to what the human experience would be, where they return and he's sitting there just cranking it to some home videos. Because, as we know, transmissions are still coming through. They were receiving and not sending. They were. How is he feeling this time? If not, you know, we'd get some actual canonical answers, but the headcanon, indeed. Just watching some porn, watching some home videos, and jacking off for the better part of two and a half decades. Do you think does Case have the capability to, like, help in any kind of way? Possibly. Do you know what I mean? I mean, it's, you know. Not a lot of, like, orifices or, like, you know, it's a very, like, bulky sort of thing. yeah i don't know hey do they bring that though think about it like if i have a question about this right because even when i was watching like if you watch project hill mary or you watch the marsh or you watch all these shows two of the people on the martian they had a baby at the end of the movie remember they had they were together so there's some stuff going on maybe not you know it's i don't know what the regulations are or whatever that might actually be frowned upon but like if you're going on a thing like that do you have time for the self-fulfillment or this is all business if you're up there nothing but time i will say the okay the thing is like chris for nolan's movies are not horny by nature usually we'll get to oppenheimer eventually but like but uh in terms of like stripping down for the long nap in the space this is like a highly we're just sort of body bag zipping ourselves into goo, water, whatever. We're not doing the alien stripped down into your undies and get into a clear casket. So he really skipped over a potential stripped down to your skivvies and get in the pods sort of moment. What's the sexiest scene in Nolan history? Kelly Murphy sitting naked, cross-legged in a plush armchair. But, like, all of these directors that I'm thinking about, I'm trying to think of the sexiest. There's been some sexiest. Nolan doesn't have a sexiest. Carrie and Moss spitting into the beer that she gives to Guy Pearce in Memento. Oh, that's a great pick. And that's early Nolan. That's a great one, yeah. I mean, Anne Hathaway as Catwoman is quite sexy, I think. There's some sexiness. But, like, Nolan. But in general, Nolan's not a very sexy guy. Not very. Very utilitarian. He doesn't care about it. Interesting. All right. An idea is like a virus, resilient, highly contagious. The line that hits hardest 12 years later. Molly, what's your interest? This is similar to, like, what you were saying, Joe, about, like, the book burning or the climate change, kind of of a piece with that where I think often my pick here is just about the beauty of the prose, but this is really more like it's just unpleasant to think about this idea when you watch this movie right now um, Monkouf says this world's a treasure Donald, but it's been telling us to leave for a while now, mankind was born on earth, it was never meant to die here, like the way that the planet is just melting around us, and uh we're gonna will we be around? I don't know but not too many generations behind us will um, be here for the death of this planet. As far as I know, we don't leave or otherwise. I don't know. As far as I know, we have neither a plan A nor a plan B. I guess plan A is the billionaires get to leave and we will stay behind. Van, Lathan, what's your answer here? Plan A should be we make them leave. Okay, anyway. It's the love and gravity bit. It's like such a profound, you know, man, maybe you don't need two people fucking in the movie if every fucking movie has this profound prose in it i remember when the joker was explaining how things go to plan it's like something that we know intuitively but the way he put it i was like oh he's fucking guys he's smarter than batman what's happening here you know what i mean and that like the love and gravity thing just any human being trying to understand the crushing weight of love and connection like what the fuck is it? Like, what is the deal? Like, remember when Vision was talking about, you know, the grief is love. I was like, what the fuck is going on? So, like, that right there as the love being a cosmic force of the universe and not just something that we've invented to explain our chemical connection to one another is just insanely profound. It's outlasted the movie for me in its relevance by a long ways. Yeah, it's so good. I mean, this obviously is the actual pick. I think the fact that the movie builds through kind of the technical, tactical, rational, logical discussion and like Coop has to kind of concede because Amelia is like, we love people who are dead. Right? After he runs through all of the kind of like social utilitarian reasons to be drawn toward each other. It's just, it's really riveting. And he's like, He's like, you're right, I do have a dead wife, and I do love her. Exactly, yeah. It's just, it's great. Like, love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends dimensions of time and space. Maybe we should trust that, even if we can't understand it yet. He's, frankly, both very effective lampshading of some of the, huh, aspects of the movie, and, like, beautifully empowering conceptually. I don't mean to bring the mood down, but my answer is Professor Brand talking to Amelia in one of the pre-recorded things. And he says, then we must confront the realities of interstellar travel. We must venture far beyond the reach of our own lifespans. We must think not as individuals, but as a species. And that idea, like, I think about that all the time when I think about, like, you know, let's talk about climate change. Why not? But when I think about, like, the people who are smart enough to know that climate change is real and yet, like, not wanting to do anything about it is the most, like, well, it won't impact me in my lifetime sort of attitude that, like, makes me so pessimistic about humanity, right? And it's just sort of like, I don't think you have to have a kid to care about, like, the future of the human species. you know a lot of people make that argument but like we're three people who don't have children like I don't think you need that you need like basic human empathy and a lot of people just don't have because if it's not going to hurt me now I don't need and it will make me uncomfortable to confront it then I'm just not going to confront it and not change the way that I like use fossil fuels or whatever the case may be you know so like I think about that a lot and I thought about that when I see about that life. There's a major gigantic a huge comedian right now that I was in a conversation with maybe like I don't know 10 years ago something like that 10 years ago whatever it was having a conversation climate change came up and I was like you know 300 or 400 years from now there was a report on Great Britain and how climate change was impacting Great Britain not a thousand years like 100 years 200 years just talking about it this person went I just don't care about 200 years from now I was like that fundamentally fundamentally told me who you are and I don't care how it sounds or how it comes off if you legitimately only care about your existence and you do not consider the part that you are a part of a tradition and a community of human beings and not just you what about the seals what about the whales what about all the stewardship that you're supposed to if you if that's how you are i'm like i can't be fucking with you like that it's just the way it goes like because usually that's just too reckless and i'm enough of a piece of shit already to where i don't need to the death of the fucking beluga whales on my conscience too i'm already doing enough fucked up shit i just really agree so i think this line about like thinking about yourself as individuals versus a species or to your point and beyond your own species into the stewardship that we have for the world is that really got me 10 years there's a point when plucky young Murph brings Coop like a cornbread sandwich it's like a sandwich with like the cornbread is the bread of the sandwich it's yummy That sounds so dry. That sounds so unbelievably dry. What depends on the cornbread? Like, if the way my mama makes the cornbread is actually more like a sweet cake almost. Yeah, like a cake. But, like, you wouldn't want a cake as, like, the bread of your sandwich. And, like, also, I don't know what's in the middle of that sandwich if there's no meat. So I have no idea. Corn on corn, baby. Corn on corn on corn on corn on corn on corn, baby. like moist cornbread is delicious but you usually want to have it with like a chili or something like that but as like it's a lot to get through okay speaking of devastating things you think darkness is your you think darkness is your island they adopted the dark I was bolded to the voice most devastating moment does anyone not have Cooper sobbing as he watches it can't be anything but this. And he's like, my kid turned into Casey Affleck. I can't fucking believe it. It can't be anything but this. Going right to the log to watch the home video saying start at the beginning and then watching 23 years worth of updates about everything that has happened in the time that he has missed. And like you guys said earlier, an instant for him, a huge chunk of life for the people he loves most in the world. And the way that we crest from, I mean, the tears start right away. This is like a very iconic and famous, you know, meme and gif still to this day for a reason, very memorable visually. But the way we move from happy things, happy updates. Tom has finished school. Tom has fallen in love. And Cooper is crying because good things are happening to his son. And he is full of joy and possibility, but also misses that he's not there. And then the despair. Like, you get to meet your grandpa. you get to meet this baby, Jesse, and then oh my god, Jesse has died. And Donald has died. And not only have they died, but they're buried out in the back where we would have buried you if you'd ever come back. And what is not said, you fucking didn't, and Lois has told me, I can't, I have to let you go. I have to let you go, so this is it, you're not going to hear from me anymore on that devastation, and then the cut to black, and the reach toward the screen, and then Murph, Jessica Chastain, here she is, and she's grown, and she says that it's her birthday and it's a special one because you told me, you once told me that when you came back we might be the same age and today I'm the age you were when you left and he is just shattered. Sobbing that he has missed this much of their lives and that they don't. And I love too when we build later toward like, the laws from Homer always used well I think in the film like when we're getting the update on, when Amelia is getting the update on her father dying in Coop years, then we also get the, like, one of the twists in the film of twists is revealed. Did my father know, too? You know, Dad, I just want to know if you left me here to die. I have to know. And his face, is he, like, has to confront the fact that she might think that for a second? Like, that's so good. I once thought about if I was Coop, no, if I was Murph, and my dad was Coop, and then I had left all those videos and then he came back to see me when I was old he would have brought some of that shit up he'd have been like by the way June 3rd 2045 who the fuck you think you're talking to you're talking to everybody out the room give us the room everybody out who the fuck you think you're talking to you're talking to me you're talking to your daddy go ahead and take them last breaths So I always, my problem with this is, like, I struggle with this. He's trying to save the world. You cut the motherfucker some slack, man. I know it's upsetting. But, like, you guys don't feel me at all on this. It's like I know he didn't come back. He was supposed to come back. But there was a giant wave. He's not Kelly Slater. He did his best to try to get off the wave. They don't know that. I know. They don't know. We know. That's the whole thing that, like, the whole thing that I love about this is, like, when Tom talks about it in terms of, like, faith, you know, like, Lois says, I have to let you go. This idea that, like, Murph doesn't know and Tom doesn't know and Bran is talking to Murph and he's like, I believe they're still out there. It's this, like, faith thing of, like, you know, older Professor Bran dying before Murph can get the information about whether or not her father knew to that point of, like, what you just said. You know, she's like, did he know? And then he dies. And then she just has to, like, have faith. And so then it all comes back to the end when she's like, you know, because my father promised me, like, that idea of finding that faith again, losing the faith in your father and God, if you prefer, and then, like, finding it again. All that stuff really, really works for me. I don't know, like, I both agree with you, Van, and also just sort of like, I have highly, highly irrational feelings about my parents, you know, and it's just sort of like, and especially the ones that originated when you were young. So it's like, yeah, yeah, that's just how we are as animals, I think. I think, too, the way that Murph, like, you know, there's that moment where she's like, the ghost is a through line, obviously, but there's that conversation where she says, you know, I didn't call it a ghost because I was afraid. It's like because it seemed very human. And like this seems very human to me, too, especially if you're young, to Joe's point, the idea that. And honestly, Coop says a version of this, too, when Amelia is like, you didn't explain relativity to your kids. Right. Sorry, we didn't have time to go over Einstein before I left because we were on the clock. But also she's 10. and like in a world like this where it is so hopeless and you have been deprived of like the capacity to pursue all of your own abilities and optimize your own potential and the thing you have around you every day is like are you going to say well it'll be better next year right and then the one thing that you can count on is the person you love and then they're gone that you would blame them for that like even if you got to the point of being able to understand it so in in that original script which again is not nearly as good as the finished product so i want to give chris Nolan his credit but this sequence is there and Jonathan Nolan has talked about this this was the like scene the whole movie is built around this idea of relativity and he was talking about how Einstein he's like when he you know it's so cute he was talking about it he's like Einstein brilliantly depicted in my brother's new movie Oppenheimer but he's like Einstein didn't really like fuck around with the math that often he was like often talking in terms of like concepts and stories and like word problems and so he was talking about the absolute like heartbreak and despair of two twins like you know one set on a different timeline than the other and coming back and the different ages of these twins and what you lose inside of that sort of story that Einstein tells and so General was talking about uh the quote he is he's like he says the thing he's scared about the most is where's the story go what's going to happen to all these people you love when you're not around to see what happens to them anymore and this idea of going through a black hole and the closer to death you get as you go through the black hole the closer to godlike powers you have that you can see through time and space and all this sort of stuff like that so this concept of like what happens to you as you die which dr human brings up you see your children's faces and stuff like that but like all of this stuff is in the mix and like john johnson nolan coming with this idea of like what would happen if you went to space and time, something time dilated and all of a sudden these children that mattered to you, you missed it. And they didn't even know, they didn't have a good reason to know like why, you know, they have no idea and they just think you were, you were abandoned. And in his version of the script, Coop is like watching these videos for days, right? If it's 23 years of videos, like he's sitting there and you cut back and there's like growth of beard on his face. I think this is a more effective cinematic, you know, just watching it over the span of a few minutes, but just like this incredibly impactful cinematic moment that can only happen inside of a sci-fi story is the building block for the you reverse engineer the entire movie around it. And it becomes a meme for a reason. Like it just, you know, it's not just McConaughey's cry face. It's just sort of like what we know that that means. Kind of set the stakes for the entire story. Yeah. Alright, most unforgettable Zimmer-ism. Mallory, what do you have? A lot of great candidates for this as well. I'm going to go with two hours into the movie, man's escape attempt and blowing up the endurance and then saving the endurance. I think the like frantic beating heart and ticking clock in the score, the rhythmic nature, but also the race against time that we get from the musical composition there. You mentioned the use of the score earlier, that ticking clock element really primes us for the music being deployed in this way, and then it's amplified here. I just think it's really hypnotic. That's my pick. What about you? Ben? It's not the cornfield? Kimby? I thought it was the cornfield. I thought the cornfield is very rousing. I loved it. Quick quiz. It's just cornfield for me. Look. Which cornfield part? The cornfield at the beginning. The drone. The very beginning. The first stretch. Here's my note on this. You ready? Go for it. If the crops are dying and the food is that rare, you can't drive through the crops. It's distracting and disqualifying. I'm sorry. Otherwise, great. That always kind of sweeps me away. Yeah, that's a good one. I thought, are Williams and Zimmer the Beatles and the Stones? That's controversial because, I mean, all composers, like, hasn't Zimmer, I think this is right, correct me if I'm wrong, but Zimmer is, like, one of those guys who, like, employs a bunch of musicians under him to, like, also, like, he gets the credit, but then like a bunch of other musicians actually write a lot of the pieces of his scores. You know what I mean? That's not the case here. The story of how Hans Zimmer wrote this score is like incredible. We could talk about it in a second, but like, isn't, isn't, wasn't there like a whole thing? Like, you know, I think, I think some other composers got sort of put their feet in the fire a bit more about this, but like they employ like a raft of composers underneath them to sort of buoy up their work. Cause Hans Zimmer cannot possibly have written all of this stuff just himself. Do you know what I mean? so it's like a bit more complicated than that. But in terms of like reputationally, I would say, yeah, that's correct. Correct. Sorry. Sorry if that was a killjoy. I was. Yep. It's very upsetting. How was the dragon's a Gmail.com? If I got that wrong, I just completely besmirched Hans Zimmer. This is how Hans Zimmer wrote the score to, to interstellar, which along with like the score to house moving castle, uh, has become this like very tick tock, like, uh, I hear that score all the time on like TikToks and Instagram reels that have nothing to do with Interstellar. It's become just like background music for a lot of, of content these days. But this is a quote from Hans Zimmer. Chris said to me in his casual way, so Hans, if I wrote one page of something, didn't tell you what it was about, just give you one page. Would you give me one day of work? Zimmer told Sean, whatever you come up with on that one day would be fine. and so apparently he wrote a letter about he wrote a letter to Hans Zimmer about a man having to leave home for a job and explain to his son why he had to go and that and so he didn't say anything about space or like space libraries or time paradoxes or anything like that he didn't say give me a sci-fi score he said this is the story it's about a man leaving home and so the organ music that is played inside of this movie is, like, that's the, like, vibe Hansen was going off of. And I just kind of love that it's, like, I don't know. If someone comes to you and is, like, I want to write a pantheon sci-fi movie, I think you have, like, how could you possibly escape some of the, like, if you're a composer, like, some of the references you would want to make to other famous sci-fi scores or something like that. And so the fact that he's, like, I'm just going to give you this emotional centerpiece and you tell me what that musically says to you is how we get the like main interstellar theme theme i think it's a really cool story so fascinating yeah chris millen might not let people sit on his film sets but he has some great ideas and he uses them sometimes what are you gonna say man no no no i didn't know where y'all find this goddamn shit at i didn't know i didn't i've never heard this i've done a lot i've done a lot of work on interstellar i've never heard that before. I don't know. I get... I fall down rabbit holes. Okay. For me, I think this is the end of A Beautiful Friendship. That's a tenant line. Actor who never returned to the Nolanverse, but should have. Who's in this movie who should have been in another Nolan movie, but never was? Mallory, you've got... It's Timmy. It's Chalamet. And I feel like this is for now. I mean, they just did. Timmy's been doing the... what's it called? Timothy Chalamet Live. Give me an Oscar. Give me an Oscar to her. The screenings across LA of all of his films. And so he's, you know, he was with McConaughey. He was with Nolan. And he, like, talked then. And, you know, you can find these clips online about how, like, Interstellar is, like, they're moving all the time and he loves it. And he obviously worships Nolan. So it seems like they will work together again. But it's kind of surprising that it hasn't happened yet. I think he hasn't made that many movies since Interstellar Nolan, not Timmy. Yeah, Timmy's been busy. I think equally important anecdote to come out of that, give me an Oscar tour, was when he mentioned that Matthew McConaughey left a giant shit in his toilet. What's going on there, guys? Wild stuff. Yeah. Wild stuff. I know, he's a child, and that's something that Matthew McConaughey did. Okay. Timmy could have been in Dunkirk, you know? For sure. For sure. He could be in Odyssey. Oh, my God. All right. Jessica Chastain, did she ever do another one with him? No. That seems to me to be a Nolan-coded female lead. Jessica Chastain, I love her. She's one of my faves. She's great. Most of the women in these movies are dead, though. That's only so many shots. The credit I will give Chris Nolan in this instance is that I think I already said this, but that Murph was a boy in Jonathan Nolan's treatment and he changed it to a daughter. So Jessica Chastain, a whole living, breathing woman is something Chris Nolan added to this movie. There you go. For every day's wife. what the fuck? Murph? This movie would have been Interstellar at the front house. If there's no Murph? What the fuck? How is that going to work? Just all dudes? Yeah, well, and Anne Hathaway. That's it. And the woman that don't believe that we landed on the moon, that's the whole fucking movie. That's right. That's Inception. Okay, so some men just want to watch the world burn the most Nolan thing about this movie Van what's the most Nolan thing about this movie to me how heady it is like there's not really an attempt in this movie to make this easier for people to understand and he doesn't really do that like he he is on top of explaining the science and the world building but only the service the plot. Not to make it easy for you. Think about the big short assumed that we wouldn't understand finance. So there's a device in the movie Fantastic. Margot Robbie and Abbasso. There's a device in the movie. The device has a name and it's Margot Robbie and Abbasso. They do it a couple of times, right? They come back to it. Selena Gomez. Right. But Nolan, if he was making the big short, he would not have done that. He would have had deep scenes of people, deep thematic scenes of people talking about finance and explaining it on a whiteboard or something and either been like, either you got it or you don't, move the fuck on. That's what he does. Tenet, Dis, Inception. I hope you're staying with us because I'm not slowing down the plot or slowing down anything else so that you can get it. That to me is the most heady thing about the film. Yeah. Jessica Chastain in an interview was talking about how they were all talking about Kip Thorne being on that the scientists who came up with this idea in the first place and, like, sort of what he taught them or whatever. And Jessica Chastain said she tried to memorize, like, all of the numbers and figures that she had to, like, the equation that she had to write out on the chalkboard. She was trying to memorize it so that it would look, like, natural as she did it or whatever. Yeah. And she was like, this is so hard. This is impossible. How can anyone do it? And Kip Thorne was like, that actually should be, like, 20 chalkboards. And she's like, oh, okay, I'll be grateful. I'll be grateful for this instead. Mallory, what's your... I think, as we've discussed across every one of these pods pretty much so far, just his obsession with time, specifically. Inside of the headiness and inside of the idea of great pursuits and a quest, the way that he thinks about time and the passage of time and how you experience time relative to other people in a distinct way. Obviously, we talked a lot about that on the Dunkirk pod and obviously a ton about that on the Inception pod. What does that do to you? how does it influence your choices and how you think about your place in the world. It's just like one of, uh, it is one of Nolan's core tenants. Can't wait to talk about this when I get to tenant, but like, it's so funny. Cause I also have, uh, inception and Dunkirk written down here for my answer, which is when we're cutting and it has to do with time when we're cutting between like the man and Cooper fight. Um, and then we're cutting back to Murph having to like figure something out that cut back and forth between like two very urgent, if this is if she doesn't figure this out and if like Casey Affleck isn't distracted by fire long enough for her to figure it out or whatever the case may be and if Coop can't miraculously find that communicator a couple feet away from where he landed on the side of this planet like none of this works and so the tension is high on both of these things. They're both operating on different timelines, right? Because Murph's whole thing of like I need to figure this out is happening in the case span of like an hour maybe something like that like a couple hours maybe whereas like everything with man and coop and then it it continues into like the docking and the explosion and all that sort of stuff like that that back and forth of like figure it out figure it out into the tesseract in space so like like with dunkirk or with inception we're watching these like high stakes we're watching joseph gordon levitt have a gravity zero gravity fight in a hallway while we're watching the van fall while we're watching this thing happen with dunkirk we're watching like tom hardy you know try to land the plane while this boat is trying to take off in different timelines over different um tempos of time but the stakes are high on both and we're cutting back and forth and there's just something so to van's point like he's just gonna trust that you're gonna hang with him while he executes this and it's so and it was like i don't think i would have appreciated the nature of that if we hadn't done Inception and Dunkirk. And I was just thinking about, like, this is a classic Nolan kind of across time, in different timelines, high stakes. It all converges on something sort of set piece. Yeah. Does Tom Hardy have a place in this movie? The answer is always yes. I mean, we have to speak on behalf of CR. Tom Hardy is the poor deceased Wolf Edmonds. Oh. Tom Hardy with a beard. Oh. we got there that's who it is Tom Hardy with a beard really really really bushy beard so you can't see his Peaky Blinders beard really bushy beard Tom Hardy is the guy that's him think about it we got there we should find a place for Tom Hardy in every single Nolan movie because I don't think that Nolan has made a movie yet that Tom Hardy could not have been in I quite agree. Yeah. I don't know if there's a non-Tom Hardy situation. Last but not least, our greatest accomplishments cannot be behind us. What aspect of Nolan's upcoming The Odyssey are you thinking about slash most hype for this month right now? Van Lathan, what are you most excited for when it comes to The Odyssey? Well, really, it's kind of boring. That's okay. I want to Nolan both Nolan does How can I put this Nolan does Batman And the shit that Batman is doing in the movie You can't do in real life You can't do it It is fucking Batman So people know it could happen Next week it can't happen It's fucking Batman However He has a way of making that story dramatically accessible he has a way of making batman feel like batman i can't really i don't know how to explain it it he had he brought batman to us we normally have to go to batman you know it tim burton's take on batman is in this this gothic painting come to life and all of that stuff or joel schumacher had two completely different takes on batman we normally have to go to batman no one brings batman to you i'm interested to see somebody bring the odyssey to us it is in many ways uh the the the formative work of western mythology in a lot of ways but it is fantastical there are yeah there are elements of the film that stretch your imagination and that stuff is sometimes hard to bring to an audience you have to make the audience walk to go find it you have to make them but no one doesn't do that so what i'm interested to see is how the tension how his style how his approach to practicality in movies how he's able to bring that story which is you know very formative but also not accessible wouldn't be traditionally Nolan way, how he makes it that. I'm interested in feeling like in a tactile way, seeing the viscosity of the Odyssey like all running over the screen. I'm interested to see how he does that. I love it. I'm so excited. Not let everyone know you have. It's what we talked about at the beginning, trying to get home to your family after a great trial. These are like the core animating principles behind both of these stories. And if we want to add something else to the mix, I would just say water, stuff, go. there was a there was a rumor going around that Tom Hardy was in this movie I don't I don't know if Chris Ryan will be the same yeah it would be tough I will make since we since we last recorded since we did Dunkirk We've just gotten much more information about the cast and who they're playing and stuff like that. So I think I'm just excited about to know who all the characters are. And I mentioned Eurylochus already, but Himesh Patel, who I love, is in this movie. We'll see how it all shakes out and what we have time for, but in a non-insignificant role. I just didn't know how big his role was going to be. I still don't. but like the first look images of him look great and i'm really excited that he's here so um same you know a tenant alum station 11 he's our guy i'm really excited for him and uh i'm excited for the odyssey man will you go watch the odyssey with us can we all watch it together yes i think that we should all go see it together we have a great time when we go to the movies together i would like to see this i am nervous i don't know why i'm nervous this is a big one this is a big movie. I was nervous. I know. Nervous, guys. I'm not nervous about the quality of the movie. I just think it's very low chances the movie doesn't hit, but like, I don't know. There's so much talk around this one. We're in such a precarious time. I feel like I got a lot on the line with this. I don't know why. That's interesting. Do you mean we're precarious time in the industry or in the world we live in? It's like, you know, the world we live in is what it is. The movie theater is my sanctuary but like just the odyssey i don't know just the whole thing i'm gonna be hanging on every word and every scene in the movie it's a big one i think so i remember when dunkirk came out and i was like i was skeptical that dunkirk would do well and then it like did so well um and then uh and then of course oppenheimer was like an absolute juggernaut so now i almost feel like nolan is like too big to fail do you know what i mean like i just don't i don't think that a flop is possible but you know well i don't know if that's what you're talking about no no no flop isn't i don't think a flop is possible but i just like how i this take with this this is a how about this i actually feel like this is a bigger swing than people think that it is this is a fucking gigantic swing I agree I think this is a bigger swing it's in such capable hands that no one is really discussing it but this is a gigantic gigantic swing yeah but wasn't Oppenheimer you know like who thought that that many people would go see Oppenheimer and that's like the whole Barbenheimer like phenomenon but like still like Oppenheimer there's like if you heard about anyone else making Oppenheimer you wouldn't be like that's going to be a massive hit you know what I mean Like, it's just, I think people are just ready for whatever Christopher Nolan. I'm excited. I'm excited, but I hear your nerves. I hear it. Anything else that we should say? We did it. Had a blast. Yeah. Great time. Yeah. Great time. Since we're not there, I don't know everyone who's in the studio helping today. Can we assume who's helping? What do you think, Mallory? Do we know? I'm sure that, well, we know for sure that Carlos and Arjuna are there. Right. that Jomi is on the social. Yeah. I don't know who else is in the studio because I'm not there. I think I might have heard, did we hear Chris Waller's voice? Perhaps. Is CT there? Chris, CT, Jack, Kevin, everybody here at Sycamore. There we go. Hey, we changing the world over here. And we'll see you soon. Bye. from 11 War 10 Flight Student сегодня,