Lecrae Grammy Award winning artist reveals path from streets to finding his purpose, cheating death, power of redemption, Christian beliefs and how he's become a cultural bridge to faith, turning lessons into lyrics.

Lecrae DeVon Moore or known by one simple name, Lecrae. He's a New York Times best-selling author. He's a Grammy award-winning artist, so don't just call him a Christian rapper. Although that shoe does fit, but he's just more than that too. His journey isn't a linear Christian journey. He's dealt with demons, stents, and rehab group therapy. And sometimes it's probably best to be around others so you can find yourself. Well, you find yourself that way and in your room with a small Gideon Bible. He takes us to the moment that music saved his life and the day he thought he was losing his mind, brushes with danger, but also salvation. Lecrae doesn't want to be one of those Christians that beats you over the head with the Bible, but he does want to live in a way where he's creating disciples. He's the best at what he does, but I had to ask what's more important to him, the acceptance of Christians or the acceptance of the hip hop world that feels like an earthly battle versus an eternal battle. He talks about the way he relates and walking into sports teams and one of their stars, an all-star, Boogie Cousins, he wasn't going to mention the name, but he did, immediately saying, nah, this ain't for me. That's the fight he's fought his whole career and he'll never stop fighting. This is The Pivot and this is one of the world's ultimate pivoters. So tap in with me, Freddie T and Chan, as we welcome Lecrae to the show. What up, brother? You got it, man. I feel like this has been dangling 22 years in the making for me. Oh, I'm telling you. Lord got a big angel. Hey, hey. You know what I'm saying? You got to be able to tell me. Ah, you know what I'm saying? I did want to know a little. I did about 10 push-ups before I got in here because I knew I was going to be with y'all. 10 more than 10. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I hit a 40 the other day. You remember hitting 40? 40 push-ups? Straight through, boom, boom, knocked them out. All right. In a row. Man, that's an old country shrimp though. It ain't no weight, man. All right, man. Welcome to the show, Lecrae, man. You feel good, man. Grammy Award-winning artist, New York Times bestseller. And actually, one of the first Christian gospel rap albums I ever had in 2004. Oh, yeah. You was rocking with me back then. Yeah. So it was at that time, my two favorite were You and the Truth. Okay. Yep. My kids didn't know certain songs had cursing until I retired, actually, because I would always buy the clean versions. But I was in a time of life, I was like, well, I wanted to pour or whatever I was letting into my atmosphere. I wanted it to be about God. And so you were a huge part of that. So I've been growing with you since then. This is Channing Crowder, Fred Teller, Ryan Clark, Pitterfam. Thank y'all for pivoting with us. Speaking of that, one of my favorite songs. Yeah. I think it's other than the church clothes intro and the first mixtape they do not offer that on iTunes, by the way. I would love for you to tell them not to break that up. Welcome to America. Right now, it's a very relevant statement. I think at the end of the song, he's like, I've made it in America. I'm amazed at America. But I couldn't get approval to stay. So they sent me away from America. And in 2014, to say that, and now see how relevant that is 12 years later. What are your thoughts on how that connects? I'm a prophet, bro. You should have knew that. You should have known. Man, here's the thing. I think if you, so when I wrote the song, I was talking about multiple perspectives, because at the time I had a multitude of different audiences, you know what I'm saying? So every verse is me speaking from a different person's perspective. So I got the person who went to war. I got the person who grew up on the block. And then I got the person who immigrated to America. That's like the third verse. So the thing for me is I think a lot of times people don't spend time in the trenches. They just, they live on whatever level they live on, you know, America, whether you want to believe it or not, it's a caste system. It ain't India, but there's just different levels that we have. And I'm not just talking about financially. I'm talking about the way people perceive you or the way they treat you or the way they think about you. So for me writing that song for a kid who I lived in San Diego, Southeast San Diego for a season, and my grandma would take me to Tijuana. And, you know, I seen how people was living. I seen when people was fighting to get into America. I seen the struggles of people trying to stay in America. I had neighbors who allegedly, you know, didn't have their papers. You know what I'm saying? So I just know them struggles. I got artists on my label whose parents have been sent back to that country. So it's a muddy mixture. And I was just speaking from a perspective of like, man, this is a real issue that people got to deal with, whether you, wherever you draw your line in the sand, wherever you feel like, no, this is the way it should be. Okay, but that still don't change the reality that people got to live through. You know what I'm saying? So I just think at the end of the day, man, you got to humanize people and you got to deal with that, that reality. And for me, I'm, I'm always, I'm always listening. I'm always learning. I'm always trying to, you know, throw my little perspective. Plus, if you say it in the song, people don't, you know, sometimes they don't, you say it online, they're going to clip it and they're going to run that back. Yeah. Say it in the song. They're like, Ooh, that's a bar. That's a bar. Yeah. But to that point, brother, like, I think life not makes the man, I always get uncomfortable around religious people because we bite. I'm spiritual, but I'm, you know, I'm not religious. What does that mean? I believe, I know that's a higher power. But why are you uncomfortable? What do we do? Do they, do they, I don't want to cuss. I, you know, I don't want to say nothing. It's not in the Bible. And I'll say something. You be like, no, cause John 46 in the Piscopal 72 and 70. So you feel like people just be wanting to beat you up? Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, when I talk about crazy stuff, talk about sex all the time, I've been locked up a bunch of times, but that's kind of, that's kind of the question is where we just had Gigi on. I was asking him, like he's progressed in life. But if he didn't go through or do what he did young, he would never be able to get where he is now. Are you talking about knowing a league, not doing, but knowing illegal things are going on? Probably being a part of some of the, I don't want to put the man business. I was going to let him say it, but being a part of those illegal things and at those times still believing in God and never questioning that path, did he put you in those situations to make you what you are now? Or did you put yourself in them situations to make you come around to where God wanted you to be? Yeah. See, this is a struggle. I think I have because you started off with like, man, I feel, I get a little nervous around religious people. I think one, people don't, people only really say that about Christians. Cause if a Muslim dude was sitting here, you probably wouldn't feel that way low key. Cause I'm Christian. So I've been reprimanded. Okay. So I'm talking about all that sex online. I got three kids. I know about sex. So my thing with that is that I think a lot of Christians get bad PR. I think we get bad PR like because you get these characters, you get like Druski playing this character on and it's like, yes, that is real. There's people like that, but that ain't, it's a whole bunch of little mom and pop pastors who just trying to get by. They ain't doing all that crazy stuff. You know what I'm saying? And then the other thing for me, I didn't grow up in church. You know what I'm saying? So I come out to just a lower working class community. You know, my uncles was gang members. I didn't soul stuff. I shouldn't have sold. I didn't dance. I didn't do police to threw me in the back of the car more times that I could count. So I'm used to being in the jungle. The church is the greenhouse. I understand the language in the greenhouse, but I'm more comfortable as a bridge from the greenhouse to the jungle. I'm a bridge. You know what I'm saying? I'm not, I'm not uncomfortable here until they like, you want to go to a trip club? No, I'm good. I'm not uncomfortable here until they say, you, you gotta raise your hand. You gotta do this. You gotta, I'm like, I don't know all them rules. You know what I'm saying? But I always want to be a bridge. So I love running into folks who think like you think, because I like to change they perspective. Like I'm true story. I'll tell the story every so often because at the height of my career, it felt like I was bubbling. You know, it's like, not at the height, but like back when I did that first church close mixtape, I got a little mixtape right? It's back when we had CDs. I got mainstream producers on there. I got Kendrick Lamar who shouted me out at the beginning of my first song, like shout out to my dude, LaCrae, because me and Kendrick was cool. I got this mixtape, bro. I get invited to come to the Sacramento Kings practice. You know what I'm saying? Because the coach Bobby at the time, you know what I'm saying? He was believed, he's like, come to the practice, come to the, so I come and all the players are sitting down and coach like, Hey, I want y'all to meet my man. This is my man, LaCrae, he's number one gospel rapper. I was like, I wish you wouldn't have said that. I wish you wouldn't have said that. Not because I'm ashamed of the gospel or ashamed of Jesus, but it's because that put a seed in their brain and whatever. I was just about to be lame. So then I got my mixtape and I'm like, man, I was just trying to get y'all this mixtape, you know, one dude, and I ain't gonna say his name, but Boogie took my CD and he was like, man. He said, man, I don't want any gospel rap, bro. And to me that like, I was like, bro, but you don't, like you don't know we relate more than you think we do. There's more we connect on and you probably think we connect on. And all I'm trying to do is be that bridge from where you come from to what God had done in my life. So I get it. Like I ain't offended when people want to I'ma be me, so be you. You know what I'm saying? Like I'ma be me. If I convinced you that I didn't, I wouldn't wave my finger at you. That was you. So I could go to magic, but you ain't going. I don't want no wings. Actually, you can bring me back some wings. So you will take some magic wings. Yeah. But when faith first entered your life, did you find peace right away or did it take a while for you to unlearn like a lot of this call the month survival habits? It shook me. You know what I'm saying? It shook me because I just didn't, I didn't get it. I was a skeptic. I just didn't believe I thought faith was for weak people. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was like, you know, in black homes, you're not really allowed to be atheist or agnostic. It's like, you playing around, boy, but I low key was I just couldn't tell nobody. You know what I'm saying? Because I was like, I don't believe this. This is lame to me. Like y'all shouting and falling on the floor like, cut it out. You know what I mean? So, but then I was going through some real problems. You know, I'm saying, and I just didn't want to turn to God because I felt like that's a cop out. So, when my problems start getting heavy, pregnancy scare at a 17 year old and then, you know, I'm doing some dirt, my partner get arrested, my cousin get arrested. I'm like, oh shoot, like I'm really going through it. I think that's when I was like, all right, I need to be more responsible. But then you try to be responsible, but it just don't, they just keep calling you. It's like Pookie, like it's calling. You know what I'm saying? Like the drama. And man, I think for me, my partner, Jamie, he became a Muslim. He's like, man, come over to Islam. And I was like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna check it out, bro. But it was too many. I like pork. I like bacon, pepperoni, sausage. So the pig had you. And then it was like, it was like, I was trying to stay away from the girls. I just, I couldn't, you know, like I'm trying in my own power. And one of my home girls invited me to a Bible study, University of North Texas. So I go and this football player's in there and it's like regular people, you know, I'm like, huh, y'all look like me. They was cool, but they wasn't telling me to stop what I was doing. They was just telling me to learn and come and listen. And man, over a period of time, I think one day just, I just got smacked. I just heard all these stuff I heard about Jesus that I didn't believe like, it's like the scales fell off my eyes. And it was like, Oh, you really lived, you really died. I got to, and I didn't feel like I had to like try to be better. I just felt like even though I was dirty, I was clean. You know what I'm saying? So that made me, it was like love motivated me to change. It wasn't like I was like, I gotta get myself better. It was like, I just didn't feel, I don't know, I didn't feel like doing the stuff. You know what I'm saying? You said that they didn't pressure you. Like they just welcomed you and that certain pressure you at that moment. Did you also learn what grace was? Kind of yes and no. Okay. Yes and no. I say I learned what grace was because grace is like getting something you don't deserve. Right. You know what I'm saying? I'm an earner. I've always been a hustler. I've always been an earner. You know what I'm saying? That's just in my DNA. The reason why I am where I am is because of the Lord, but there's hustle in me too. So I always been a hustler. And then my pops, you know, the war on drugs took him out both in the system and he became addicted. So he wasn't in my life. So I felt like deep down inside, I needed to earn his love, earn the luck. Like I got a, I'm not worthy because he left. He split on us. So I felt like I had to earn that. So it was weird for me tonight be like, okay, but God, I ain't, you know, I done messed up and, and God being like, yeah, it's great. So I'm like, I gotta let me do some push-ups after this or something. You know, give me a chore or something. Cause I, you know what I mean? You know what, that was a threesome Lord. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, what I gotta do. That was two of them. You know what I'm saying? That's the double scene. That was two and one. I had two boys. So you gotta put some, what I need to do. Give me a pentance. Hey, yeah, you, you was watching too many professionals, right? Too many times people go to confession and they say, say seven hell marries and do this and do that. And when someone is telling you that's not the way Jesus Christ love works for you, it is hard to fathom because we have human brains. Yeah. Right. And in my, in my human brain, I know there are things you could do to me that's going to make me feel a way about you. That's right. And have somebody say that that's not a thing when it comes to being a believer is difficult. And, you know, you mentioned the grace, right? The, the getting things you don't deserve, right? There's also the mercy. That's right. Right. And him saving you from the things that you have earned. That's right. And the things that you, you do deserve. You know, I read something about you being a group therapy, right? And I'll tell them myself a little bit. I've never been someone that drank all the time, but when I would drink, I'd be like, I'm drinking to get drunk. Yeah. Right. And some things get out of control. And I had a friend who was in AA and I was like, I just want to go see. Right. And during this time, I wasn't really drinking. And I got there and people started telling a story. And I was like, hell no, I ain't no alcoholic. Yeah. I was like, you bad off. You know what I'm saying? And so you start to sort of rationalize, rationalize those things to yourself when you were in group therapy, you know, you're hearing these stories and you're now amongst these people in rehab. What were some of the revelations that came to you during that time? Boy. So this is how it goes down. This is the, this is how that story goes down. I'm drunk one night. I'm in my home girl house. I'm not really attractive to her like that. I'm just hanging out with her. She got a jealous boyfriend. I don't take threats slightly. So, you know, he was like, man, what you over there doing with that dude? I'm drunk. I'm like, man, what? No, nobody wants you. Man, if I wanted to, I'd take her. You know, so I'm, I'm like, yeah. He said, all right. All right. So he leaves. I'm over there talking to her just like, you know, she like, man, you should go because he going to come back and he going to be tripping. I said, man, nobody worry about this dude, but, but it was like, you know, but it's all good. I ain't tripping anyway. So I leave out my way out. He misses me. So I'm, I'm going out and as I go out, he's coming in. I don't see him, but he sees me. He starts shooting in the air. I'm like, man, what is that? What's going on? I don't know. It's him. So the next day she calls and she's like, man, he came, he was shooting at you and I said, Oh, that was him. Shoot. So now I'm hot. I'm like reverting to, you know, a different mindset. And I'm like, well, ain't nobody finished shooting at me. So I'm really contemplating doing something bad to this guy. I'm headed to go, you know, get a weapon of mass destruction. To go do something bad and I'm drinking and I'm drinking and I'm drinking and I'm headed to go do something bad. At this point in time, like I am a believer, you know, I didn't, I didn't gave my life to the Lord. I'm just, I'm on, I'm in a bad space. Some just hit me as I was driving. Like you're going to ruin everything. You're going to ruin your life. You, you are just, you're a terrible person. All this is terrible. You might as well just take yourself out. Like you, this is it. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, man, what the heck is going on? My brain just starts skits on me. And I was like, I'm losing my mind. So then I was, I pull over to the side. I'm like, yo, I'm going crazy. Like I think, you know, now I know I got some genetic mental health stuff from my grandparents and whatever. So I'm like, man, I'm tweaking. So I go in a hospital, hospital is literally right there by the grace of God. I walk in the hospital, I say, yo, man, I'm, I'm, I'm bugging out. I'm about to do something crazy. And they like, are you drinking? I said, yeah, I probably had too much to drink and it was like, I didn't realize that I had said so much crazy stuff to them. They was like, yo, choice is going to be jail or rehab. So I was like, rehab, please. I'll be going to rehab. So I'm sitting in there. And as I'm in rehab, you know, down the line and I'm listening to these stories of people who really had, I mean, I drink a gallon of gin a day, you know, I done this and done that. And I'm like, oh, oh, this is, this is serious. But at the same time, what I learned about myself was that you can't also compare yourself to other people either because you can still have an addiction or you could be a functional addict and not realize it just because you handle it differently than they do. I was still making bad decisions. I just wasn't making the same decisions that they was making. So I think that's what I learned. You started to give yourself a little false grace. Yeah. Right. Because I'll be honest, I was sitting there and listening to those stories and I'd be like, shoot, I wanted to, I can actually go drink right now because I ain't gonna be nowhere near as bad as he is. But there is something about those settings though, that they make you both sort of introspective and you have to really also look at the outside of you and realize, okay, I can't compare myself to those people. When you got time to be quiet though and get out of there. I know Romans was a huge influence on you. Why was that particular book of the Bible such an important turning point? I think it was what a Gideon Bible. Yeah, a little bitty Bible, man. They take everything from you in this particular rehab center. You ain't got nothing. You ain't got no shoelaces because they're like, you might do something bad to yourself or somebody else. So they get you don't got no pans or pencils, it's crayons. So I got crayons and a little bitty Bible. I'm like, man, you know what I'm saying? They don't even give me a big Bible. Might hurt somebody with the big Bible. I don't know. And I'm in Romans, man. And one of the verses that I see is kind of to your point earlier is like, well, shall we continue in sin so grace may abound in Romans six? Like, should you just keep on doing this so you can see how much grace you got? Like, no, you're not a slave to this no more. Like you actually free, you just not living free. And I think that was a revelation for me. It was like, it was like, oh, I'm not a slave to this. I can really live free now if I want to, but I'm just choosing not to. It's kind of like, I always tell people I used to work. I used to work at Albertson. I don't even know if there's any more Albertsons in existence. I'm old. They're from Albertson. They still got Albertson. Okay, yeah, I used to work at Albertson. And then they built the Kroger across the street. And I was like, Kroger was paying better, the building looked better. And I was, I was high up at Albertson, you know what I'm saying? I was doing my thing. And then I was like, the manager of Kroger was like, man, you got experience, you can come over here and work right away. We'll give you a better deal, better raise. So I'm out. I'm young. I didn't tell my Albertson. I just quit. I'm out. The manager did, Florida front and manager didn't know that I had a new gig. So I'm walking by one day and she's like, Hey, you supposed to be at work. You ain't been on the schedule. Son, and such, and such. And I was like, I don't work for you no more. I got a better job. And I think that's what I had to tell my old self is like, man, seeing the devil, I don't work for you no more. I got a better job. You know what I'm saying? And that's kind of the what Romans took me to in that time of my life. I love that. Yeah. And bro, talking about rehab verse faith. Yeah. Because I was getting in trouble and all that stuff. You got the old, the old Baptist women. Maybe you got to go to church, baby. Yeah. Yeah, I can go to church. I'm still about to go party at night. Like, I don't know. Same day. Same day. I can go to church on Sunday. And then I'm gonna hit the city Monday. I'm about to hit the forge. Sunday night. And I'm gonna hit magic city on Monday. I'll go back to Bible study Wednesday. But like that, the, let the God put his hands around you. If God has hands right, why you need rehab? Okay, so the question, that's a good question. The issue there is like, I think people get this idea that once you give your life to Jesus, that all of a sudden you this perfect person, like you got it together now, like, I'm good. And I think it's not that it's that you now have the ability, the power to walk a straight and narrow. You know, you can still make bad choices if you want to, but why, but if you really been changed, why would you want to? That's the question. So the real question is, you got to ask yourself, am I really changed? Like I say, I am, or am I just going through the ritual? You know what I'm saying? Because if you get hit by a Mack truck, bro, you're not getting up the same. And I feel like God hit me with the Mack truck. I can't be the same person that I am. I do feel like God had his hands on me because I should have been dead. You know, I should have been dead a million other times. I just think he gave me a lot of grace. He gave me a lot of chance. I felt like Samson, you know what I'm saying? It's like, man, Samson was wilding. It was like, hey, Samson, let me get, listen, bro, let me give you one more shot. You're going to be blind, push him pillars in a minute. So I just feel like he gave me, he gave me so many chances, bro. I understand where you coming from because you might be talking about rituals and religion. I'm talking about more relationship. You did what I'm saying. So like ritual is when I come home and I know I want to sleep with my wife. I know I'm trying to get some action. Ritual is when I be like, here you go, here you go, some flowers, here you go, some candy. Can I get some candy? That's ritual. But relationship is like, man, I've been thinking about you all day, babe. Like you was on my mind. I missed you, man. I just want to spend some time with you, baby. You know what I'm saying? I didn't clean up the house for you because I just thought about you. I got you some flowers. She's like, oh, get your tail up in here. That's relationship. You know what I'm saying? So I think some people are religious with God. Like they, I'm going to read my Bible, go to church, do the thing, but they don't really got no relationship. They don't like, man, you just being so good to me. I'm trying to do this. You know what I'm saying? What was that moment that told you you can take all of this that I've gone through all of these experiences, put them together and then present them in the package of music. Man, music was like my salve, like my, just my savior in a lot of ways. You know, it was like a, it was my go-to. I come from a lot of trauma. You know, I done been physically abused. The men who posted me to men in my family all did me dirty. You know what I'm saying? Like whether that was, you know, beat me down, whether that was abandoning me. You know, I had a family member who was, she was close and supposed to be looking out for me. She molested me as a kid. My mom is a young mom. She trying to figure it out, but she didn't grow with her mom. So she, so, so sending me to stay with my grandma for months at a time, that's not a thing to her. So I'm, you know, it's like, I got so much childhood trauma that music was my escape. You know what I'm saying? I, you know, I never missed a meal. I was fed. I had closed my back roof over my head, but it was still a lot of trauma. And I would listen to Tupac, man. Tupac had this song called um, Daddy's Home. And then Tupac just became like my pops in a lot of ways. You know, I just would, man, he get me. And so hip hop just became just like, this is my family. You know what I mean? Hip hop was my family. And it was the way I could express myself. And it was the first thing I was good at. Like you see me, I'm six fold, 230 pounds. You see what I'm saying? Like, I should be, everybody looking me to, when I be in first class, you play for, uh, and I'm like, I didn't make it that route. You know, my coach looked at me and said, Hey man, I didn't coach some good players, some great players, great players, play pro ball. You ain't great. You know what I'm saying? And so it's like, all right, you know, uh, this is, I ain't going, that ain't going to be my route. This is my route. It wasn't even to make it just to express myself and just to be something. And I always wanted to make music that said, this is who I am and how I feel. And so that's what I started doing. And when God changed my heart, it wasn't like, I'm going to be a gospel rapper. Now I didn't even know, like, I just was like, God change me. I'm going to start writing songs about how he changed me. That's really what, what took place. But talk about the transition, right? Because like I said, down with real talk. Yeah. Right. And then I remember around church clothes, I was like, Oh, this is different. Yeah. You know, like you could, you could see there was growth in the person, but also growth in the artist. And the music started to feel more like what you would hear on the radio or what you would buy from other artists. And we'll get into the quote unquote, secular conversation. Because I know you love that word. What was the transition in your music where it did? Because I remember listening to early gospel Christian rap, right? And literally there would be verses that were just scripture, right? You would almost feel like you were listening to a sermon. And then it almost moved into, we're going to tell you live for God in the relational way. We're going to tell you to love God. We're going to speak about certain principles of the Bible, but we're not going to beat you over the head with it. And also you could put it on in the car and if Channing's riding with your hillboppers head to it. How did you start to make that transition? I lived in Memphis in the trap and them kids was like, man, it's lame, man. Man, put that GZ on, man. It's lame, man. Come on, hear that, man. It's slaughtering them up, man. That's real though. I was living in Memphis and I was mentoring young kids in the hood, man. And I really was like, I want to be effective. You know what I'm saying? I want to be effective. I don't just want to be beating them over the head with songs. I want to talk with show life, like what are you experiencing? What you going through? What you dealing with? And then let me show you how God can speak to that. You know what I mean? And that's kind of how I started writing. Now I got a lot of pushback because the OG Christian rappers that I found after I became a Christian, they was really about it need to be a sermon. You need a scripture, scripture, scripture. And I tried. Like I tried y'all. It just wasn't in me. I just was like, bro, this ain't me. Like I'm grown up on Poc and Nas and, you know, listening to them pour their heart out in songs and talk about their life and their world. And for me, I'm like, man, I should be able to spend my time with God so much that when you prick me, I bleed truth. But not forcing it on you. And I feel like if I'm being honest, and I'm, you know, I'm just going to be honest. I'm going to say what people don't like to hear, but a lot of Christian movies, Christian music is not good because they so focused on getting the message out there. They don't, they don't tell good stories and they don't put, they don't do good art. They just want a message. You know, and they don't understand like God care about the craft and the story too. We all hear because of a story. The whole story, the Bible is a story. So I was like, man, I need to tell stories and people beat me up for that. They were like, ain't enough Bible in this song, ain't enough scripture. Where your Jesus is at? Put some more Jesus on this. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, bro, my life is a living testimony to this. You know what I'm saying? Let me just tell my stories and, and let it affect. And then that's when I saw people was impacted. People was like, bro, this song hit me in a different way, bro. And it wasn't a song where I was like, in Genesis and Exodus Leviticus, you know what I'm saying? It was a song where I'm just telling my story and it was connected. I love that. Like you said, you're saved, but you know how the people talk on the streets. You was just doing the Memphis accident. Right. Are you ever writing that you, you know, the Lord and savior hit the switch? I know a word that rhymes with switch. You don't say like, are you ever writing it like, I'm gonna grab me a bitch. Hey, Chad, did you delete it? No, we can't say that. I'm here. You talk, I heard I heard interviews with you before. You know how the boys talk. Like you said, you can play both sides. I know it has to pop me your mind sometime. You got, okay. So it's so many, it's different phases of my journey with God. You, when you meet people in their first phase, they ready to beat you up by Jesus. They like, man, when you say, you drink, you know what I'm saying? You read the Bible of China and come here. Let me tell you about the Lord. Hey, God is good. And they just, it's, but that's like that with anything. When you first learn about something you telling every, we're vegans when you first get big, put that meat down. Don't you touch the meat, start eating, you eating tofu this and tofu that. You know what I'm saying? It's just, when they just be evangelizing for whatever it is they passionate about, it take people time to learn how to like, oh, like add this to my lifestyle. Because it's more effective that way. I'm more likely to be vegan if you just always vegan and then you be around me and then you be like, I'm like, oh, you ain't, oh, that's big. I know that. Like what you know, you know what I'm saying? Like that's interesting. Like, okay. Versus you being like, hmm, that meat going to kill you. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I say that to say my first phase of walking with God, heck, no, I wasn't like that. I was like, very strict. I was in the studio one time. I ain't going to say his name, but he, he a big, he a big rapper who, who found the Lord and he invited me to the studio and he was rapping it and he didn't know I walked in and he was in the booth and he was saying all kinds of stuff like some song song and you know, the Bible is my trigger. I'll kill a nigga. And I was like, so my younger self at that point in time was like, oh, this man is not of God. You know what I'm saying? Like he's fake. But as you get older, as you grow, you learn like, man, everybody's at different stages of their journey at different stages of their walk. And you know, some stuff that is meat that you thought was demon meat, you realize that's just meat. I won't eat in the front of nobody else because they offended by that, but it's just meat. To me, and they're going to hate this, but words, words are cultural. You know what I'm saying? It's like, what is the meaning behind the word is really the bigger issue. So if I'm like, if you say your name is Dr Channing and I'm like, but you were a doctor and I'm like, okay, doctor, like I really low key just cussed at you. You know what I'm saying? I'm not giving you grace. I'm making fun of you. But if I'm like, yo man, that dude, that dude a damn doctor. It's like, yeah, there's a reverence in that. Exactly. I'm trying to give them grace. There's a reverence in that. So again, they're going to crucify me for that. But at the end of the day, I get it. Language is cultural. I try to oblige by different cultures and like, hey, that's disrespect for you. I don't do it. You know what I'm saying? Well, no, I tell we had Kurt Franklin on and actually asked him somewhat of the same question. Yeah, because I will break your neck. Hey, heard the like you heard my mixtape. But to your point, my pastor, Pastor David Hughes at church by the glaze and in Lauderdale, yeah, I went fishing with him. And I cussed. I'm a big time cusser. And every time I cuss, I'll be like, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And he told me there's nothing in the Bible about cussing. It's about saying words with malice. It's a hard issue. Yeah. If you're saying it with malice, then that's negative. The n word. Yeah, it can be said in two different ways. That's right. Very disrespectful races. And you my boy. And so he kind of explained it to me. And that's how I took it. That's how that is that how you feel about cussing people around you. Yeah, for me, I don't care. Now, there's certain words where I'm like, I don't know. That's offensive. No, my I don't know how you can spend that. Yeah, you can't say that. Yeah, it's offensive. Like, you know, but then there's other terms where I'm like, man, it's culturally offensive. Then I understand certain things culturally, we don't do when we go to other countries. There's certain if a black cat crosses your path in America, it's like, whoa, if a black cat crosses your path in Asia, it's like good luck is coming your way. It's cultural meanings. When we was in London doing a show, we was like this. And it was like, you can't do that. That's like a middle finger. We was like, word. So we ain't trying to be offensive. It's just different cultures. You know what I'm saying? So in American culture, especially church cultures, like certain words, like, don't say that, it's like, cool, I respect you. It don't mean I think it's a sin. I just respect it. It's also about intent and impact. Yeah. Right. And if you're truly, if you're hard to the right place, you accept the impact and try to refrain from the action. Right. Like you said, you know, you weren't trying to be disrespectful, but since y'all, since it's disrespectful to you, I'm going to respect you in your space with that, because people expect you to be like this Christian, but like away from it all, like off camera, if people can spend a day with you, like what would surprise them the most, like your playlist or, you know, I think what it depends on what's which parts are you talking to. There's some super Christians out there. I call them super Christians because I'll be like, y'all just telling me when y'all get to heaven because they can't do right by them. I can't do right by them. So they would actually be shocked that I do regular Bible studies, that I be mentoring my family members, that I share my faith with people, that I'm praying over my wife, that I'm involved in my church, they would be shocked, you know what I'm saying? But then you got some people who like, man, he just like, cool, cool, you're like, oh, you know, I mean, hang with Channing and Channing, like, man, I like bro, bro, cool. They would probably be shocked at like how much like them I am. You know what I'm saying? Like, bro, I thought he was going to be kind of like, you know what I'm saying? Like they would be shocked like, oh, you listen to this, so you watch this, so you, you know this, or you, because to me, I understand like in order to reach culture, you got to experience culture. You know, I don't get washed over by it. I'm not just sitting here like bathed in, you know, all the negative things going on, but I'm aware, you know what I'm saying? So I think people will probably be shocked like, oh, buddy, cool. I didn't realize he was, you know what I'm saying? So I got a line, you know what I mean? I got a line, but isn't that the kind of juxtaposition that you're in, right? Because, and I don't know why I think you always have to explain this to, you call them super Christians? Yeah. You know, hey, the same Bible that you're trying to beat me over the head with, you remember who Jesus sat with? That's right. Right? You remember who Jesus communed with? Yeah. And he's the only perfect being that's right. We've ever known. And it's hard to explain those things because they try to treat you like you lukewarm. Yeah. Right? They try to treat you like you got one foot in, one foot out. When for me, and I think early on in your career, I was like, I have to listen to this. Yeah. Right? Like I have to, like this is what's gonna, I got to put this on instead of putting on wheezy, because I know what it does to set my mindset in the morning. Yeah. Right? Or on a Sunday, I tell them my son, now you can't play that until, you know, and then when you made this transition, I was like, oh, I could listen to this Monday morning, I could listen to this Tuesday night, right? And it was like, I'm now feel reached. But it's the same thing about being able to go talk to Channing, right? The pastor or the super Christian may not be able to have a conversation with him. But if he's talking about lust or something like that, you can say, no, I understand that. Yeah. Right? And you're not immediately delivered from that, just because you give your life to Christ. How much of your ability to relate has allowed you to connect with other people and be that bridge to Christ. That's why I don't listen to nothing they got to say. Because I'm like, well, you got your mission, I got mine. I can go places you can't go. I can say, I can connect with people you don't connect with. For me, relationship is everything. If you off putting, as soon as I meet you, I'm not going to want to build on relationship with you. You know what I'm saying? The first thing Channing, the first time I meet Channing, and he like, he cussing, I'm like, bro, your spirit is bad to me and you need to repent. Like, that's the first thing I say to you. Exactly. It's like, oh, yeah, well, forget you. I don't know this dude. Right. And I think it says something when you can look at a person and say, man, yeah, I know where you are. I know where you've been. I actually been there and I walk with you. You know what I'm saying? I walk with you. That's changed everything. That's made people reach out to me more behind the scenes. Is they like, man, buddy, relatable. And I'm not giving them nothing false. I'm not telling them like, you know, yeah, man, you can sleep with your girl and look, God, it's all good. I'm not telling them that. I'm telling them like, oh, you in a place where this don't bother you and I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're a terrible person. I'm going to sit here and tell you, hey, man, when you tired, I'm going to be right here. You know what I'm saying? I tell people that all the time. I told one of my partners, man, I said, hey, bro, I don't care if it's four o'clock in the morning, you got a stripper in your bedroom with cocaine on her backside. Call me. Wow. Don't you ever be ashamed to call me. He was like, man, that's scenario too familiar. But somebody got to be available. You know what I'm saying? If everybody feel like, I know, I can't talk to him because he going to judge me. Then they not going to reach out to you. What was the most difficult space or time in this journey for you since you found Christ? Of criticism. Because it almost, I'm going to say to me, following you, it felt like as you got more popular, the K-dots and the people recognizing you for your artistry, it felt like the other side, the Christian side started to say, oh, well, he's communing with the other side. There's no way he's of us. How difficult did that get for you? He got bad. It got so bad. I was like, I'm done with Christians, period. But they not all the way wrong. So here's what I say. If you just look at the history of people who say they love God, and then they get a little fame or a little money, they do tend to fall by the wayside. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's not a Christian problem. It's a human issue. You know, y'all got, y'all done played with people who get a little money and fame. They're like, oh, buddy, different. You know what I'm saying? Buddy then changed. I think that's just, that's a, that's the natural human tendency is to like start to feel yourself. And it was a perfect cocktail for me because I did have the number one album in the country, Be My Room 5, got the Grammy, torn all over the nation, getting six-figured checks to do a concert. And so if you mix that cocktail with Christian saying he fake, I'm like, well, should I be faked in? Well, I'll be faked in. Y'all don't look. Y'all ain't got no love for the West Coast. Y'all love Snoop Dogg. You know what I'm saying? I'll be faked in if that's what you want. Because I'm, it's like a perfect cocktail. And I feel like, you know, the enemy was like, oh, yeah, I like this. They don't like you. You know what I'm saying? And now I'm getting, you know, yeah, I'm on a song with Todd Dalla Sign. I'm in the private jet. You know what I'm saying? Y'all don't like me. Get y'all. I'm gonna go this way. And then add another explosive into that cocktail is, it's 2016. It's a new political regime. It's police brutality. It's black people getting killed every five seconds on television. And then I say, you know, I'm talking to my white brothers and sisters and I'm saying, hey, y'all, this got to stop. And they like, shut up and preach the gospel. Stop being political. And I'm like, oh, word. So y'all think I'm fake. Y'all think I'm being political. And I'm over here getting money. We'll forget all y'all then. And it was like, I felt like the devil was sitting there like, oh, yeah, baby. Got him now. Got him, baby. Right where we wanted. And so it was just the worst season of my life. I'm gonna be honest with you. You know, the worst season of my life, driving a late model, expensive car, pulling up into a million dollar home and depressed and feeling like, well, God, I don't even know if you're real. You know what I'm saying? And that's kind of where I was at. I was like, if they love you and they love you, but they don't love me, but they don't love me. I don't want to be nothing. I don't want to do with these folks. So I guess you must not be real. And if I'm being 100% honest, this is me being telling on myself for real. I think when you struggling and you want to wild out, you don't want God to be real. Because then you got to be culpable or responsible for your actions. You got to be accountable. You got to be accountable. So it's easier to be like, to let that hurt faster and be like, yeah, he ain't real. So I'm finna roll up this wheel. We getting drunk tonight, big dog. And that's where I went. How did you get out of that? Grace. You know what I'm saying? God was so gracious to me, man. I remember being in the darkest place in my life. I had everything you could ever imagine, but I'm in the darkest space in my life. I'm on a road. I remember waking up, we was wilding, like on a bender. Well, I was, I don't know how. I ain't blaming nobody else. Let's just say I was wilding. And then I woke up the next morning and I was like, man, who am I? You know, like, what is up? What's down? What's left? What's right? If God is real, because I'm a thinker. So I'm like, if it ain't no God, it ain't no purpose. And if it ain't no purpose, I don't have no purpose. Because we just a bunch of animals, just a bunch of molecules living for nothing. So if we don't have no purpose, then I'm purposeless. And I start getting depressed. Just like, man, we just here for no reason. We might as well just kill each other. We might as well just rape, steal, plunder, do whatever. Nothing matters. I start spiraling into this dark place and my brain, back to the mental health stuff, my brain couldn't handle that weight. And so I found myself in a clinical depression. My brain just shut off. And I was like, Hey, something wrong. I mean, I didn't know what it was at the time. I didn't have language for it. But I remember trying to turn on a game and I was trying to watch the game. And I was like, I'm not excited about this. I'm not even entertained. I'm just like, I remember going to get something. I was like, I'm not hungry. I'm not thirsty. I started losing weight. I was like, Oh, I'm depressed. You know what I mean? I didn't have a turn for it. In that depression, it was so bad. You know, I canceled all my shows. I was like, Yo, I can't do nothing, bro. I'm in a dark space. I don't know what's going on with me. And I didn't want to pray because I was like, nah, I ain't praying. I ain't going back to that. You know what I mean? But I sat in my closet one day. I felt like God was like, Hey, man, just open this Bible up. And I was like, it's the last thing I want to do. I haven't been wilding out here. I ain't finna be that dude go running back. I'm sorry, God. I'm this good. I went to open that Bible man and I started reading about Peter. And when Peter denied Jesus three times and Jesus looked at him after the third denial and Peter just broke down crying. But Jesus wasn't looking at him saying, man, you lame. He was looking at him saying, I knew he was going to mess up. I still chose you. You know what I'm saying? Get up. And I felt like that's what God was saying to me. Pray, I knew this. Get up. Go feed my sheep. And I broke, you know, I just broke in my closet, man. And then I called the homies and I said, Hey, bro, this is what I'm dealing with. This one I'm going through. I need help. You know what I mean? Thank God I had good friends. Told my wife, I said, look, this is what I'm on. And she was like, all right, you know, and everybody rallied around me until I got healthy. It's a beautiful story. I was beautiful. I got silly questions. So what kind of weed was your smoke? What was it? Did you roll papers? Like, did you roll papers? I will say this. I hadn't smoked in a long time when I went on my little smoking bender and weed had changed a lot. We had changed a lot since I was a smoker. I was like, you mean it. He was like, he like smoked up in the chicken coop. This didn't change the lot. But you know, man, you know, you go through it and you own it. I'm the type of person I'm gonna follow my sword. You know what I'm saying? I'm not gonna sit here and act like I had it all together, you know, when all the stuff about I ain't gonna bring that up. But when, you know, going to celebrity parties and all that kind of stuff is like, bro, listen. And you talk, you talk about Todd Dalla signed, Love Pop, Snoop, you a West Coast dude. We in Atlanta, so GZ, TI, Troy, all the dudes I grew up on. You can't ask some of them dudes to jump on the beat. Can you ask everybody? He's asked some of me and Chip. Me and Chip just got nominated for a Grammy. But I'm saying, have you ever asked somebody to jump on the beat and then you listen to the verse and be like, hey, I can't, I can't, I can't put this. This was crazy. They have a different level of respect for me. You know what I'm saying? Because I take the craft serious, they're like, oh, you really be rapping. So you not just here trying to make some like Jesus beats. You really like, you know, most of the time, like when I first started, people would be like, bro, you Christian, bro, you show you want to just do Christian, bro, you nice. That's the compliment. So I think it's a respect thing. But then it's also, they see the, now I will say this too, I ain't talking about Ted or none of them because it's a respect thing with them. But if some of them early on, they just saw the success. You know what I'm saying? We built the number one independent label in Atlanta, you know what I'm saying? Fully independent. Like I ain't saying, I know it's QC's and everybody else, but we don't, didn't have distribution. We're doing it all independently. You know, platinum albums, gold albums, you know, over and over again. So I think they saw that and was like, well, shoot, I need to jump on this bandwagon too. You know what I'm saying? But outside of that, it's been respect. It's been big respect. And I think that's really what it comes down to. The BET cipher back in the day to let people know like he can rap rap. Oh, buddy can rap. You know what I'm saying? So I think it's just, man, now we didn't have a couple of characters where it's like, bruh, now you know good and well, bruh, we ain't, why would you give me this song? Why would you like, I got this song for you. We're going to do this record. I'm like, wow. Now we will make you think you can't jump on Trap or Dye. You know what I'm saying? Could you, like, could you, could you get on, you know, one and all, could you get on Trap or Dye? Could you lay a verse down? Because here's the reason why, is because there's so much honesty in them projects that there's a way, there's a connection point. So when GZ says, when GZ says, and when I get the hell, right, I'm going to fry. Then I could literally come back in and say, I understand why you feel like that. I felt the same way. You know, some, some, you know, and just, you, it's just authenticity. I can listen. I got some trap stories for you. You know what I'm saying? So I think it's just being authentic. Me and Walker did a song. We was talking about the other side of the game where it's like, everybody talks about, you know, put cell in the work, but nobody talks about sitting behind them walls. Nobody talks about losing your mind and them nasty meals and then your girl messing with some other dude. And, you know what I'm saying? You getting bedbugs, you know, biting on you. And, you know what I'm saying? It's like, you got to sleep with one eye open. Like, that's not fun. You know what I mean? But nobody writes those songs. We only write the songs where we glorify the other side of the game. So, you know, it's like, that's, that's more so my perspective on it. Before I ask you this question, I do want to give you your flowers for the Grammy years ago for Gravity Anomaly. They do your number one on the Billboard 200. And your work with Healthy Hip Hop. I do want to give you flowers for that. But we always ask our guests, their biggest pivot in life. That's the one moment you can look back on and say, because it's happened to me or for me, I am who I am today. I mean, man, that's a good question. I'm in a massive pivot now, which so let me, let me speak to that first and I'll speak to the biggest pivot. The pivot I'm in now is man, I think a lot of artists, especially rap artists, man, they don't understand. It's like athletes, they don't understand how to go from where they were to this new version of themselves. And this pivot of not having positive syndrome. I really did start a record label. You know what I'm saying? I really did create a podcast, I love to the deep end podcast, you know, we looking at y'all, we learning, you know what I'm saying? But it's doing well. I really did start an app, the apps called Reconstruct U, where we help people transition and to grow. And these are real tools that have proven successful. And I can look back and say, wow, I'm not just a rapper. It's when I'm sitting in first class and they like, you play ball? Nah, you rap? Yeah. No, I bumped that. I'm educated business, man. I'm an entrepreneur and I can own that. You know, I made that healthy pivot. So that's one. But the biggest pivot I would say, honestly, bro, and this is no, I'm not trying to be cliche, but man, being downtown Atlanta at this impact conference and hearing that God wrapped himself up in human flesh, got on that cross and breathe his last and resurrected for my raggedy self. That changed the course of my life. I would not be where I'm at today, had that message not impacted me in the way that it did. I have a last question. What has filled you more, the acceptance of Christians or the acceptance of the hip hop community that is non-Christian? For a kid who came from not being accepted and thought acceptance was everything, all I ever wanted as a kid was to be accepted by the hip hop community. Right? It's all I ever wanted. All I just wanted. Y'all love me. And then I got to a place where I realized like, it's not real love. We accept you, we respect you, but we're not really here for you in all of the ways that you think we are. To be accepted by my Christian brothers and sisters was probably the most powerful thing ever. And I'm not talking about the super Christians, you know, like they never gonna accept me probably. I'm never gonna be good enough for them. God bless you. Tell on me when you get to heaven. But to be embraced by people. And I'm talking about, like, I'm sitting here with y'all, y'all. You know what I'm saying? Like, I look and see you doing your sports casting and I see my book behind you on the shelf and people screenshotting and text it to me all the time. And I'm just like, man, that's dope, bro. Like, to be a part of a family that's way bigger than I could have ever imagined, man, that's mind blowing. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm honored to be a part of that family. No, man. Listen, I've been, like I said, man, you know, we've texted back and forth about a lot of stuff. You know, when I sent it to our producer, I was like, I really think we could get him on the show. And she sent it to everybody. I just told him how excited I was, how much it meant to me, how much of my journey and my walk in faith you've been a part of. And I just, I appreciate you. I appreciate the realness. And I think sometimes the non-super Christians need to hear a Christian say that just because you give your life to Christ doesn't mean he paves a road for you of perfection. And it's the ups and downs that draw you closer to it. And so, man, thank you so much. Appreciate it. And you are huge, though, by the way. He walked in the door like, look, he tapped me. He's like, man, you've been working out. Hell of a receiver, wouldn't you? Boy. Hopefully my son can. Thank you, Lord. God damn, Neca. Hopefully my son got it.