What Happens When Christians Stop Going to Church with Lyle Phillips

Don't go to the church you feel comfortable in. Go to the church you feel called to. Why is the local church important today? This is not about you improving yourself. This is about you dying to yourself. What would you say to a new believer? I think I want that. I'm just scared. You are actively declaring war on loneliness when you go to church. When you go to church, you are actively declaring war on isolation. When you go to church, you are actively declaring war on selfishness. How do we break free from this consumeristic culture and mindset? A plant, a tree, is never going to be able to grow fruit if you constantly repot it. Nobody can crucify themselves. Community is required for you to stay crucified. Every night, I watch this conference called Awaken Debra with 2,000 women in the room. I swear to you, I did this. That is amazing. I'm like, Lord, awaken this Debra. what's up guys welcome back to another episode of stay true podcast i'm your host madison pruitt trout here with my lovely amazing husband good to be here yeah it's really good to have you you know great to be in the building yeah yeah yeah yeah well i think we should introduce our guest special special man it's a special day actually this is our first time meeting him I met him briefly. Briefly. You wouldn't remember this. I was with Daniel McLeod at the Green Hills YMCA. Wow. And you had a sweatshirt on about to hit a rack. Oh, my goodness. I do remember this. Of course I do. Daniel introduced me to you. Because we went to your, so when we toured Nashville last year, we went to Legacy. Yeah. And we were there with her mom and you preached the lights out. It was when you had given yourself a haircut and you wore a hat for the first time. Wow, I do remember that. That was the one and only time I ever wore a hat. I never wear a hat. You prefaced. You prefaced. But your hair was wet, so you didn't know that when it dried it would. Yes. So, yeah. That was a mistake. Welcome, Lyle Phillips, to the podcast. Lyle Phillips. Lyle and his wife, Allison, have a church here called Legacy Church, and it's an amazing church. You're preaching amazing. Yes. The Spirit of God is in that place. The way you guys just live so missional, like mission-minded, is so incredible and inspiring, and I want to talk a little bit about that. but also your worship. Like I just got to start off by saying too, like legacy worship is so heat. It's so good. So my word for this, so this episode's coming out in 2026 and my word for 2025 was true worship. And I came across the song by you guys. It's called like At the Feet of Jesus. Oh my, that was just like on repeat. She's all over. All of 2025. She's all over. That's a blessing because that's the first song I ever wrote. Are you serious? Yeah, but I didn't write it. independently all by myself. So I do have to give that disclaimer, but it was the first song I ever wrote. Yeah. Wow, bro. That's amazing. No, it literally, because the story that the Lord laid on my heart was the story of, of Mary and Martha. And like, that was my word for like my vision, my passage for the year. And I just was like, I just want to be at the feet of Jesus. Like that was like my conviction of like, I can get lost in the sauce of like doing for God that I miss just like abiding in his presence. And so I was like, when I came across that song, I was like, man, that is anyway. So that was like my anthem for 2025. So I just, we're so grateful. Praise God for that. That is awesome. Cool, man. The first time I saw you, you were on Pastor Rich Wilkerson's podcast, listened to the whole thing. And I was like, Maddie, this guy is the best. I just was like, I don't know what it is about you. So drawn in, man. But we talked about this before. Like, I want to jump in just on your testimonies. Sure. Unbelievable. I don't have the same story, but in a different realm. I was a hooper back in the day. Let's go. And the prodigal story of just like the world is what I wanted. And it led me to jail, actually, in a place of just like, man, I'm drinking, I'm popping pills, and I didn't know who I was, but I knew about God. And so as I hear bits and pieces of your story, I was just like, man, that really resonates home. So before we jump into what we want to talk about, just give us that story in as much depth as you want, because I told Matty it's unbelievable. Sure. Well, I'll do my best to unpack it. I'm a PK, so I actually grew up in church, y'all. I'm from Kentucky, a very small town in the middle of nowhere called Sacramento. You know, literally the population there is 600 people. So that's where I grew up, born and raised in a small village of 600 people. And, you know, in small towns in Kentucky like that, there's really only about three things to do. You either play sports, basketball or football, obviously, or you do drugs or you go to church. You know, it's really like a few options, very few limited options. Like most of my friends that I grew up with, they're now coal miners, they're farmers, you know, or they've moved out of town. but a lot of state. And so I grew up going to a church in a very small town called Calhoun, Kentucky, where actually my youth pastor, shout out Pastor Bruce Mason, he's still pastoring there today. And I visit that church usually once a year and preach there. And it's awesome. Community church in Calhoun, Kentucky. And so that's where I grew up. It's right in the middle of a bean field or a tobacco field, depending on the season. Now, this church was radically on fire for Jesus. Like most people who were a part of it, my dad was the pastor, first generation christians and like if you've never had church with a bunch of first generation pentecostals let me just tell you electric bananas like if you came to church not wanting to worship there was going to be a problem wow yeah yeah you know we are too prim and proper in church today and so when you get around people who are really acknowledging jesus has scraped the bottom of the barrel to save my life come on and you worship with them yeah dude it will change your perspective on praise so i grew up in that yeah so i'm a pk all these drug addicts are getting saved whole families are getting saved marriages are getting restored come on and listen i saw some of the craziest miracles in this church i mean it like leukemia healed tumors dissolving uh cancer healed people who have come back with x-rays like look this is what god did for me like kids that were supposed to die not dying well like it was crazy like people would drive from up to three hours away to come get prayer in our altars from other states because they were like god is moving in this little church in calhoun kentucky that's crazy so that's how i grew up wow i grew up in that right um so everybody of course when they came in would like pray over me you're called to preach you're called to be a pastor you're called to be an evangelist and i would just say like no heck no I want to be a basketball player. Yeah, man. Heck no. I don't want to be a preacher. Preachers are poor. Preachers are poor? That's what I always thought. Wow, bro. Seriously, that's what I always thought. My dad was bivocational. He had a nine to five. He didn't earn a ton of money from pastoring. He actually put most of his own money into the church so it could survive. Crazy. So I was like, I don't want to be a pastor. Preachers are poor. And that was about 12 years old when I really felt like God was speaking to me about that. And I was like, absolutely not. So I checked out mentally. Of course, I was still forced to go to church. Well, by the time I could drive and had my license, of course, I was out and about, doing my own thing, smoking weed, popping pills, getting drunk, partying, sleeping with girls, like doing the whole thing. Wow. And that was about 16, 17, just progressively got worse. 18, I'm now a senior in high school. I move out of my house before I graduate. I live in a crack house. I become addicted to cocaine, popping pills, smoking weed, drinking half a fifth of tequila every single night to fall asleep. By this time, I get my first several DUIs, go to jail on multiple occasions. It was all kinds of crazy stuff. So I've been arrested more times than I can count. People were doing drive-by shootings on my house. I was shooting at people. My best friend when I was 19 was shot in the chest, point blank, died in the street. I would have been there. probably would have been shot as well but just so happened on that night i wasn't with them um you know in and out of jail in and out of drug rehab in and out of aana uh diagnosed schizophrenic when i was 19 years old and eventually was a homeless homeless heroin addict so i lived in the back seat of a 1987 caprice classic i was shooting up heroin in this arm methamphetamine in this arm and uh overdosed three times so close to dying and at 21 years old I ended up moving to a different city to do everything I could do to like work on my own life unfortunately I mean fortunately I think uh we both know like there's absolutely no way that you have the authority to change your own life we all need Jesus and so I'm selling I'm selling drugs I'm growing weed in my closet got cocaine in my cabinet and one night I see someone walk past the window and I'm thinking it's the cops. Like I'm going to jail. The SWAT team just kicked down the door down the street at my friend's house. Definitely going to jail. SWAT team is here. Just need to get ready for it. So I go up to the window. I look out. No one is there. And I'm like, hold on. Wait just a second. There's no way that no one could be right there. I just saw them walk up the steps. So then I go to the door and then I look out the people. Nobody is there. So I take a step back from the door thinking like, what is going on? But the same atmosphere that I encountered as a kid in that little Pentecostal church in the middle of a bean field was the same atmosphere that filled that drug infested apartment. And I didn't see Jesus like I'm seeing you right now, but Jesus stepped in there and spoke to me very clearly. He said, it wasn't audible, but it was as close to audible as I've ever heard. He said, in six months, you're going to be dead or in prison unless you come home to me right now. I didn't really like know how to interact with Jesus very well. It had been a long time since I'd ever read the Bible or gone to church, but I did know he spoke to me. So I knew it was his voice and I just hit my knees. I prayed, I repented of my sins. And I said, God, I have ran as hard as I know to run in the opposite direction of you. From here on out, I'm running in the direction of you. And that's how I got saved, y'all. Wow. That is crazy. Wow. There's so much to. So you were 21. 21. Yeah. I'm 41 now. So I've in full-time vocational ministry for 20 years that is so unbelievable and you call your dad and say dad i'm coming yeah i call my parents at first my mom was skeptical she's like no you know you you've you've robbed us like i used to break in their house when they're on vacation steal stuff and a lot of trust that like is still exactly yeah but my dad was like okay all right what's going on and i told him like hey i'm giving my life to jesus you know i've i've been saved i'm give my life to Christ and I want to move home and I want to be a good son to you guys and I want to be a good big brother to my little brothers and those were my commitments and I didn't know how to be a Christian but I just did what I thought was the fundamentals which was pray fast and read the Bible years later I realized most Christians don't actually do any of those three bro but that's what I did for nine months I changed my phone number twice I sat with my dad every single night after dinner we'd watch a different T.D. Jake sermon and I would ask him questions he would pause and answer it. And that's how he discipled me. Wow. That's so powerful, man. And I just read the Bible every single night as much as I possibly could. Read every book I could get my hands on, spend hours in prayer. Wow. Like I just, I was just doing what I thought was normal. I didn't think of it like, oh, this is radical. And did the addiction, like did the hair, like did that just go away? Immediately. Done. Immediately. No, no. No withdrawals. No shakes, no withdrawals. Nothing. Wow. What? Nothing. And I had been in places where that's happening, right? So I'd been with people coming down off methadone and things like that. Like I have a ton of friends or addicts died of overdoses I had been in a rehab facility where people are I been in a state hospital like a mental institution So I stayed in a mental institution for over a month And I've seen all of that. Nothing. Wow. Wow. Praise the Lord. God delivered me, man. Praise the Lord. Praise God. Come on. Yeah. I mean, only the power of God. That is a amazing, crazy, beautiful, redeeming story. How did you then go from there into ministry? So you're hungry. You're like, your dad's discipling you. You're watching T.D. Jakes. You're studying scripture. And then what was the call into ministry like? Man, honestly, I was going to go back and play basketball. So I was like, my dream as a kid was basketball. But the devil has stolen that from me. And so I'm going to go back and play college basketball. So I went back. I started training again, playing the best basketball in my life. I was going to walk on at a D2 college locally. And I was so excited. And then when I told my dad one night, and I'll never forget it. you guys because the the power of god that was in that living room i told my dad i said dad i'm called to preach wow and he knew i was training to play basketball and he said son i've always known that wow wow i've always known that wow and so i think you should go to ministry school you should hang it up not play basketball wow so i took my basketball wrote isaac on it i'm like i'm giving up my dream i'm like i'm just giving up my dream i i want to whatever your dream is for my life god that's what i want it to be wow and um so i asked my dad when can i preach and he was like you just got saved he's like let's get sanctified first yeah he's like you have to chill you know were you were you always what i'm seeing right now which is the ability to just like communicate and talk and bring us in and was that always there storytell yes yes just used for yeah the wrong reasons yeah yeah yeah like a counterfeit anointing yes yes yes which a lot of people are operating out of unknowingly totally you know it takes a lot of creativity to make money illegally yeah right right well you think about a million things exactly so if you can leverage that for the kingdom come on redeem that man and that's the a gift of god resting on your life a lot of people don't discern that no they're operating for the enemy thinking well if i give my life to god i'm gonna have to lay down everything i love yeah wow and like bro no he's put some things in you yeah uh he wants to express himself through you and so for me communication was always that so i I think I wanted to preach. I didn't know how to preach. So I just started getting invitations to go preach at youth groups in neighborhoods where I used to sell crap. Wow. Truly, that's how I got started preaching. And what are your homies thinking? They came to church. Man. Like your people you're selling to. People I sell with. With. Yeah. They're coming to hear you preach. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're like, bro, this is crazy. This is wild. And then they would ask me to marry them. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Some still listen to me. we have a ministry in the prisons right now like Legacy does. We partner with an app called Pando. It's really awesome by the way. Shout out Pando. I'm going to do a lot of shout outs. I've always got a lot of calls. Here we go. It won't get you nothing but you can put it in. So we use that and actually I got a collect call recently from a prison in Kentucky and they were like hey this is your friend. And he was the guy that the week I got saved He and I counted out over $100,000 cash. He got arrested coming to my house. And he's like, yo, I'm watching you on this app in prison called Pando. I had to call you and tell you I'm so proud of you. And as soon as I get out of here, I'm coming to church. So all that stuff is really great, man. To God be the glory, bro. That's crazy. And then you went overseas for a while, right? I did, yeah. So initially I moved to Mozambique, Africa. So I did that because I was very inspired by this woman named Heidi Baker. I don't know if you've ever heard of her before but definitely give her a Google search just prepare yourself though grab a box of Kleenex because she's so radically on fire for Jesus she loves God she calls herself and she's the one who invented the phrase I think a laid down lover for Jesus I know sometimes that language triggers people but she really lives that and when I started preaching there was a church that asked me to come preach to their youth and I saw this VHS tape by Heidi Baker. And I'd heard her name before. And so I asked the pastor, could I borrow that? And he said, well, the pastor before me at this building left all of those tapes. So you can have them. So I go home and I start watching this lady named Heidi Baker. And she was preaching at a women's conference. So every night I watch this conference called Awaken Debra with 2,000 women in the room. I swear to you, I did this. I'm weeping on the floor. I'm like, Lord, awaken this Debra. You know, like I'm crying out to God. And then I learned like this lady has a school in Mozambique to train you to be a missionary. So that's actually why I moved to Mozambique. So initially I went as a student, but I ended up living there for a year and a half. And then from there, because of what she taught us about missions, I ended up moving to India and I worked there for five years. Wow. Wow, bro. Unreal. And then you moved, what, back to Kentucky and then felt just led like to start a church here in Nashville? No, not at all. actually i only moved to nashville because of the bna airport like it was the most unspiritual honestly because it's so clean and no it no i it's just so much closer close so like i'm from a village in west kentucky right of 600 people there are no airports so i'm like how do i get back and forth to india as much as possible wow you know so i want to get closer to my airport but i don't want to be so far from my family yeah yeah so i think nashville might be the place And then I realized after working in India for three or four years, it would be good to have a hub where I could actually invite people to live there with me to train them to do missions. So initially, I had no intent on being a pastor. I thought what I would do is do mission trips and establish a school where I could train other missionaries to take with me to India. So that mission's base became Legacy Nashville. Bro, what? So what I was doing in India primarily was focused on rescuing children from human trafficking. So during the time that I worked there, our team, we were able to rescue over 400 kids from human trafficking, child slavery and forced prostitution. Are you going in on these raids? No, we did it differently. We did it differently. um god spoke to me really early on that our goal mustn't be to be a social justice organization but more so a social mercy organization and so we didn't come in with an ambition to arrest folks yeah i mean that happened don't get me wrong i'm all for the justice system operating fairly and appropriately but uh what we would do is just go in and feed these kids and do everything that we could to build relationship with everybody including those trafficking the kids just to testify just the love of god and just be like hey do you know about what you are doing man do you realize this wow uh and preach to them and share the gospel with them and talk to them about jesus so we did that like whether they were buying kids selling kids we did that actually the craziest place that i've ever preached the gospel y'all was in the middle of nowhere in india on this auction block. It was literally a platform where parents were bringing their children and they were auctioning off kids on this block. And they let me preach on that auction block. What? And are these people who are selling kids as you're literally sharing the gospel to them, how are they responding? Is it dangerous? Are they mad? Are they receptive? I think mostly they were just curious. Why in the world is this white guy here? It was like, what is he doing here? Why is he here? And so the passage that I shared was the one where Jesus tells like, hey, you're not supposed to harm, you know, these little kids, right? It'd be better for you to have a millstone hung around your neck and tossed into the sea. So like I'm telling them. You're saying that. Yeah. Like this is what's important. You know, this is what Jesus has to say. This one we might need. We should just say it. We should just. Okay, we can address it. We got, landscape is going crazy out right now and it's okay. If you're hearing some noise. Hey, they're getting it right out there too. You hear some noise. You know what? The enemy just doesn't like this conversation because this is a really powerful conversation. Wow. Okay. So that's crazy. Okay. So I ask, like, who wants to meet Jesus? Hands go up, right? People are willing to repent of their sins, give their life to Jesus. Wow. You know, afterwards, we're following up with a team of local pastors, sharing with them, like, hey, guys, this is not just adding another God to your 33 million. This looks like repenting and forsaking your other gods. Wow. And following Christ Jesus. we're talking to them about why are you selling your children? Why are you trading human lives for a year's worth of income? And usually they're addicted, super poor, and in debt and enslaved themselves. So they're trading their children to be a little bit less in debt, I guess. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Man, that's crazy. We recently partnered with IJM, International Justice Mission, about what they're doing. And what's so interesting is like that isn't real to a lot of people. It's out there. It's not here. It's not impacting their day to day. It's not, yeah. And we just sensed from the Lord, man. It's like as believers, you got to care and be moved by things that aren't just in your personal fires of your day to day life. That's right. And that's what's so beautiful. About what you guys are doing at Legacy. Yes. So what's it been like? Okay, you've been overseas. you've seen like you've preached the gospel overseas you've seen Christianity in different places what would you say say is the biggest difference between like the American version of Christianity and gospel versus like overseas where do you see is there a difference in like our approach to Jesus here in America versus overseas usually yes there is and I think that just has to do with the fact that we can put a lot of things in front of God and look to those things as solutions. Whereas in the third world, I don't know that that's an appropriate term any longer, but in the third world where people are desperately impoverished is that they don't have the options that we have. So they're looking at the one option being Jesus, unless he shows up and heals me, I am going to die of this illness. Right. Whereas we would, man, we got WebMD and I can call my friend and I can go to the doctor and I can get some treatments and they can experiment. But over there, it's like, if Jesus is not real and he does not touch me and heal me, then I am going to die. It's over. And so I would say the measure of desperation that you experience in those parts of the world is completely different than what we experience here in the West. Wow. So that's a huge paradigm shift. Yeah, that's amazing. Hey friends, it's Maddie. If you've read my new book, Dare to be True, I would love to hear what you think. Your reviews mean so much to me. They help more people discover the message and the heart behind this book. So if this book has encouraged you, challenged you, or reminded you to live with bold faith and honesty, would you just take a minute to leave a review? It truly makes such a difference. And if you haven't gotten my new book yet, Dare to Be True, you can go and find it anywhere books are sold. Thank you so much for being a part of this journey and for daring to be true right alongside me. Stay True merch drop. We got a new Stay True merch collection, you guys, and this is my favorite collection yet. I am wearing the jersey from the Stay True merch collection. And you guys, it is so amazing. It says Stay True on the front, Stay Free on the back. It's got John 832. It is the coolest jersey you've ever seen. But we have sweatshirts. We got t-shirts. This is seriously my favorite collection yet. This is the perfect Christmas gift, birthday gift, new year gift to yourself. You guys you need to check out this new collection I so excited about it and you can go to stay true staytruepodcast We also include the link to the exact merch landing page in the show notes You guys got to go and check it out Let me know what you think. If you rep it, tag us. We want to see it. Go and check it out, you guys. That's amazing. Let's talk about Legacy Nashville. Yeah, let's talk about local church. I think we live in a time in today's generation and culture, and really not even the younger generation. We were talking about this earlier. but even like some of the older generation, I feel like we've lost this sense of like needing the church or being committed to a church or serving at a church. It's kind of become more of a like, I'll go when it's convenient. I'll go on the holidays. And we've fallen into, I think for a lot of people, this like comfortability of watching online or letting, you know, kind of sermons or podcasts, you know, even replace like the local church in the body of Christ. And so what would you say, I guess, first and foremost, of why is the local church important today? Like, why in 2026 do we need to be a part of a local church? Absolutely. Well, I think, firstly, nobody can crucify themselves. You know, like, you could give me a hammer and some nails, and I could get a nail through my feet. I could get a nail through one of my hands. But unless I gave you the hammer, there's no way I could get up on the cross, right? Community is required for you to stay crucified. Like you cannot do this in isolation and expect to stay dead to your old man. Like whenever you're working on project me, it's going to go wrong and it's going to go wrong bad eventually. And I think that's where a lot of people kind of see or view faith today is it's an act of personal development. So, you know, which is not at all biblical Christianity. This is not about you improving yourself. This is about you dying to yourself. So it's very important that within the context of covenant community, we are learning how to offend one another and forgive. We're learning how to challenge one another and then humble ourselves. We're learning how to confess our sins one to another so that we can be healed. These things can't happen in isolation. They must happen within the context of covenant community. But I think we live in such a secularized world where it's all about me making me. Right. That's not what Christ said. He said, follow me and I will make you. Yeah. Not follow me and you go make you. Yeah. And that's the way a lot of people live today. Yeah. What would you say to a new believer or someone that's on the fence about, I want this, but I'm, I'm scared to jump into church. I feel like I'm not, I don't know how to raise my hands yet. I mean, like. Yeah. I'm not the church type. Yeah. Am I even welcome, walk someone through, like, what would you encourage someone right now that's like, I think I want that. I'm just, I'm scared. Yeah. I mean, that's a very real experience for a whole lot of people. You know, our social paradigms, as people come in, they're wondering, am I going to feel welcome? Like, am I going to feel included? Is anybody going to let me sit next to them or ask them to go to lunch? You know, which I think is very sad and antithetical to the scripture. Like, if there was a guy who was like out on an island somewhere all by himself, he'd never heard about Jesus, but a Bible washed up on the shore, right? Like, he just happened to find it. And he starts reading through the epistles and he starts learning about what church is. And then he showed up to one of our churches in America. Would he experience the church that he learned about through the scripture? Chances are probably not. Right. Because we're all kind of showing up like it's a TED talk, like it's a seminar, like we're not even talking to each other half the time. Right. You know, and I think we need to learn more about how the church is supposed to be a family and do some of the things that Acts chapter 2, verse 42 through 48 talks about. Just some of those basic principles and paradigms. Like we are supposed to gather around the apostles' doctrine. That's not our pastors. That's the word of God, right? A cult gathers around the man of God. A church gathers around the word of God. Come on. So we gather around the apostles' doctrine. We're devoted to the fellowship. You know, Paul's rebuking some people in the New Testament. He's like, you guys are forsaking the assembly, and some of you have gotten into the habit of that right so it's like i'm gonna miss a day here and there no now you've missed eight weeks 12 weeks 16 weeks yeah get your booty back to the house of god right yeah yeah don't forsake the fellowship meet together in house to house the breaking of bread and the prayers yeah get together pray together yeah don't just make it about going and getting something out of the worship and then patronizing your pastor by sitting through a 38 eight-minute message, like actually go with an intention to grow and to leave transformed. And I think we have too low a view of church. For sure. Some people see it as like, that's just church. That ain't just church. You are actively declaring war on loneliness when you go to church. When you go to church, you are actively declaring war on isolation. When you go to church, you are actively declaring war on selfishness. You're saying, I'm going to step out of the secular culture I'm a part of, and I'm going to step into biblical Christianity that God has saved me for. And the church is a part of that. Yeah, man, that's such offensive mindset. Instead of I want to go be entertained by this pastor. Right, because I just think everybody's so hungry for these like big, like radical, like movements, moments. Like I want to like feel something. It's all selfish. It's all for self. And like, I want to be a part. But it's like, what does local living look like? Are you a part of a local church? Do you have local community that you're confessing to regularly? And I think you see these people and I think just culture, we've all fallen. I've fallen. Like I've had moments of being hurt by the church and having moments of like not like going and preaching at churches, but then not even being plugged into one myself. And you see that even in like this Christian influencer space. It's like, oh, I can do a lot of things for God. Like I can post on social media. I can like, you know, have this own, like my own relationship with God, but we're not walking in constant confession with other believers. We're not being rebuked and corrected by other people because if we're easily offended, like, oh, okay, then I'm not going back to that church because they called me out of my sin. And then we, you know, and we don't have a local church where we're actually serving. Like we're using our gifts to pour out and edify and serve other people. And what do you think that is? Like, how do we break free from this like consumeristic culture and mindset that we've been taught by our culture in today. It is very difficult because it is ingrained in the secular culture that we've come up in. Right. It just is what it is. There was a book I read a few months ago by this guy named Lash. It's not a Christian book. It's a secular book. It's a psychology book. I think he wrote it in 1979. And it's called The Culture of Narcissism. Wow. And so what he's doing is he's identifying the secular culture that we're a part of today. And he said, you know, our culture used to be religious, but it's no longer religious. Our culture is now therapeutic. And so people go to church to like feel better about themselves. They don't want to be challenged. Don't give me the word of God and challenge my way of life. I want to come and be encouraged and feel a little bit better about the challenges that I face week to week. And so I think that the reason why a lot of people don't stay, to be honest with you, is because we lack the humility of Christ. We truly lack it. And yet we fastened ourself to the pride of our enemy to say, ain't nobody going to teach me nothing. If I want to learn something, I'll learn something on my own. I don't need to listen to you, Pastor. I'll get on my podcast. I don't need to listen to you. I'll read this book that I want to read. And so what we're doing is we're designing our own menu. That's what we're doing. We're designing our own spiritual menu. We're treating it like an a la carte. And that's not biblical because pastors are spiritual chefs. Our job is to actually design a menu for our congregation to feed them sequentially in such a way that the whole grows. So like we know the shepherd's take on Psalm 23, right? As a pastor, my calling is to be a shepherd. Therefore, I don't just lead. I also feed. So my job as a feeder is to diagnose the condition of the flock constantly. A shepherd would do this by looking in the mouth of the sheep. And so they could diagnose the sheep and say, okay, this sheep is deficient in these nutrients. Let me take them over to this pasture and we can graze here for a while for the sake of the holistic health of the flock. So there's going to be moments where as you are a part of a church, your pastor is going to teach on something that you don't feel like you need. You're not deficient in that nutrient. But his job is not just to feed you in isolation. His job is to design a menu that feeds the whole of the flock. And so we want to come in not with a patronizing spirit like, oh, well, I guess I'll listen to my pastor today. You know, it's like, no, dude, this is a guy who is spiritually accountable and will stand before God one day as to how he shepherded your soul. And so it's very important that we, you know, we find pastors who are after God's heart and we honor them. This changed our life. So we got married and we were going to stay in Dallas, Texas. And everyone was like, hey, start the podcast, do the thing. And the Lord spoke to us very clearly and was like, if you start now, your marriage won't last, you'll burn out and you'll have nothing to say in five years. And we tucked away, went to Waco, Texas to work for a local church two hours from the closest airport. And we said, we're going to sit and listen to a local body. And we got a part of a life group. Talk about our life group. Cause I think that, that is what changed us. Yeah. Like I saw Christianity, I saw Christian leadership, I saw Christian, you know, like you're just, you're chasing the things of God and like you, and like with a heart of like, Lord, I love you, but just not being called out and rebuked and doing life on life with people locally and serving, I guess, like globally or nationally, but not serving like your neighbors, like not actually loving your neighbors. And so I think that's what was really lacking in our life up until that point, especially mine. Like I had come off of reality TV and kind of got thrown into this world when I was a church girl before then, like all I knew was a local church. And then I came off reality TV and I got really hurt by the local church. So then I had like, you know, walls up. And I was just, I was scared and I tried a couple different churches and continually got hurt by the local church. And so then, and I think, and I share that because I think that that is a reality for some people. And I'd love for you to speak into that of there's, I think, two different camps that happen sometimes. Okay. You got those who really are hurt by other believers and by the local church and we're imperfect. So that's going to happen. I've hurt people. I've let people down and people have let me down. And then I think there's also the other camp of people just want churches and pastors and Christians to affirm them in their sinful living. And then they get hurt and offended when that doesn't happen and they get called out and rebuked. And so they walk away from church or they walk away from like godly community and they just do life with people that let them live in their sin. And so can we speak to both of those camps maybe for a second of just like encouraging the heart that is, you know, broken over church hurt. but then also like challenge those who, you know. That's crucial. I mean, what is it? Is it okay if I ask you a question real quick? Yeah, absolutely. In leading into this one? Come on. I have a lot of friends who are influencers, I guess, you know, at this point, because we live in Nashville. And so from time to time, some will make their way into our church. But what is it about that like subsetting culture that is there like, I don't need to belong to a church. Like I don have to be a part of a local I bigger than that Is that what it is I think for me personally it was that I was hurt by the local church So I don know for other people what that is I think some of it is like this individualistic mindset I know of other people in my life that I'm like, hey, you need to get plugged into a local church. And there's this like mindset of like, I'm going to go and do for God. And I don't really need that. Like I can get that from like other Christian community, just like when we gather together at these big events. but I know there's like people in our life that we're like praying for and hoping for like you need to be a part of a local church and I would say just like schedule yeah schedule, travel like we in 2026 have said basically no to everything because the Lord was like be local be here and that's like half the battle is you tired because you get back Saturday night or whatever and you're like I'm just going to watch Lyle on YouTube some of it's comfortability, some of it's selfishness some of it's busyness like you're gone every weekend And of course, I mean, I think it's, it is a combination of a lot of different things. That does make sense. I get that. And I think that my experience with friends of mine who are in that world, um, it's kind of been both and right. It's just like, they're really busy. And sometimes the right move as a pastor is just to bless them in the season that they're in and say, go and do what God has called you to do. Like, I'm not trying to govern you. Like, I'm going to encourage you to be obedient. And so if this season for you looks like preaching out, you know, 24 times out of the 52 of the year, man, go and do it. And I'm here with you. I mean, we have professional athletes who are part of our church. They can't be at church every Sunday, especially if they play football. Totally. But I can build a connection with them where we have FaceTime opportunities if needed. And I can pray for them whenever they're on the road or if they're musicians or whatever it is. But I think the effort, there's something to be said about the effort, the connection and the commitment. This is my local church. And when I'm in town, I'm looking to be there and I want to serve and I want to be plugged in and I want to give. And so I absolutely get what you're saying about the hurt, because I think even people like that or others, like they'll come into church and somebody will hurt their feelings, usually because we don't let them do what they want to do. Right. And so because we did not give them the control that they desired, they determined that exiting was the right move. And I feel very sad for those people because a local church is not about you being in charge of it. Jesus is the builder of the local church. He is the senior pastor of Legacy Nashville. He is the one that is building and growing this church. And so I think sometimes people are like, no, I want to lead worship. I want to preach. And so my job as a pastor is just to discern the timing as to when people can do what. Yeah, it's powerful. That's so good. That's really powerful. Lau, we heard you preach, and it's clear, bro, I just love the way you do it. It's so humble, but it's so powerful. And I would just love to know, man, what is the Lord leading? Like, if you had to look at the church as a whole right now, for people in January 2026, where's the Lord leading the church right now? What do you see? And I would add on to that too, like as we're wrapping up, like I'd love to know too, as you've seen in being a local church pastor for a bit now, like what are you encouraged by in the local church? And then also what are you a little concerned about? Oh yeah, that's great. I love that. Yeah. And I hope I answered your last question. No, yeah, this is praise God. Yeah. So what do I see? What am I encouraged by? What am I concerned about? I think that people are no longer spiritually curious. I think people are spiritually hungry. I think that Gen Z especially are fired up about having an authentic relationship with the actual Jesus of the Bible. I think for me, millennials, like when I watched my generation get hungry for revival, they were really hungry for encounter. They were really hungry for experience. They were really hungry for spirit. but what I see happening in this generation is that there is a value for spirit, but now there is an equivalent value for truth. Truth, yep. And that is so dynamically powerful and encouraging to me. Yeah. Because remember whenever Jesus was about to be crucified and Pilate says, what is truth? Yeah. Right? Like our generation is asking that question. Totally. What is truth? Yeah. So she just dropped a book in September called Dare to be True. Let's go. off the scene of pilot saying what is truth what is truth that was her whole book literally what you're saying this generation is so hungry for truth they want to know what does the bible say yes they're saying i want to experience the jesus of the bible but i also want to know what the jesus of what jesus of the bible actually teaches so good i want to know what that is yeah so i'm encouraged by that yeah what i see forming is what i call the ambidextrous church it's not just a church who is passionate about the spirit it's not just a church who is passionate about the word but it's a church that's passionate about both yeah spirit balanced spirit and truth and we know that's the kind of worship that the father is wanting right john chapter four yeah and so that's what i see happening in the church today is i see this ambidextrous blessing emerging but we're going to go after supernatural encounters like come on man like i want it if it's in the scripture i want it yeah but we're also going to open up the bible go line up online and say what does the Bible actually say. Right. And, and that for me guys is so encouraging. It's amazing. Wow. Man, so encouraging. Come on. That's awesome. Okay. Well, as we wrap up, I'd love to just end really practically of for those who like just an encouragement of getting plugged into a local church. Like, what does that look like? What should they be looking for? Like what kind of teaching should they be looking for? What kind of passage should they be looking for? What kind of like church setting? Like what just, what should that look like as they're on a hunt? And is it important to have like one local church because i know of a lot of people especially here in nashville it's like really important to like hop here hop there hop here hop there like i like this on this day this on this day like is it important to have like your local church body and like what does it look like to serve the local church like how do you do that yes absolutely i think it's very important to have one local church i think you need to have a primary place of spiritual nourishment. Yeah. Because you can't create, like I said, your own spiritual menu of spiritual growth. Right. God has designed churches for the purpose of us coming under and growing within the context of a community. So I think church hopping, like you might be in a season right now of exploration where you're like, I don't know where I should go to church. And so you're kind of checking out a different, a few different places. Fine. That's great. That's awesome. But don't go to the church you feel comfortable in go to the church you feel called to this is a spiritual seeking not just uh one of well i'm gonna taste this and taste that like a little buffet and i kind of like the way that pastor dresses but you know he doesn't have as many followers on instagram you know it's like that's how people do things in our city it's crazy it's wild it's insane it's wild for sure but it's just the way our city is the way our culture is yeah you know like in india they don't have that luxury. You just go to the church that's in your neighborhood because it's the only one there. Your pastor is the pastor of that church because he's the only pastor available. We live in an environment where everybody's sampling, pick and choose. I would say commit to one local church. A plant, a tree, a tree is never going to be able to grow fruit if you constantly repot it. It's impossible. and God's plan for your life is that you are both faithful and that you are fruitful. So you've got to stay patient by staying planted long enough to bear fruit. You've got to go through some seasons. There's going to be winter seasons. There's going to be fall seasons. There's going to be times ups and downs. But fruit doesn't grow on the mountaintop. Fruit grows in the valley. So just remember that and land on a church, land on a pastor, land on a community, and just go all in, serve, sign up for a team, tithe. Give 10% of your income to the storehouse, as Malachi talks about, because there's a blessing in it. And when you do that, you will root for its victory. I've never sown into anybody and then rooted on their downfall. Yeah, that's great. You know, like give, get on a team, be inconvenienced. Give your time, talent, and treasure. Your time is something all of us have. We can give. Give of your talent something you're good at. You know, sometimes photographers are like, I'm a photographer throughout the week, so I'm not going to take pictures on Sunday. but that's your talent. We literally need people who are good at that. We know it's costly, but so that. And then your treasure, your finances. And so I think that if you will do that, you will grow spiritually in 2026, unlike you've ever grown before outside of the context of a local church. That's so beautiful. That's so good. Because yes, we were literally made to know God, but also to make a difference and do life in community and to be discipled and to disciple others and to go and make disciples and to live on mission. I mean, and that's where it's just so important to be plugged in and to be a part where you're not just showing up consuming, but like you are a member of a local church. You are using your gifts, your talents, like you're talking about to serve the body of Christ. Like we all have different gifts. Like we're all trying to be like the mouthpiece in the hand. Like don't try to be like everybody else. Just like how has God wired you and use that to serve your local church and the people around you. Man, this fires me up and this gets me excited because like that's truly my prayer for everybody listening is like this, I mean, podcasts, books, sermons online, all that stuff is great, but like that cannot be like a substitution for the body of Christ, for the local church, for the word of God. Like you gotta have that yourself, your own relationship with Jesus, but also like doing life on life with other Godly community. That is truly what changed my life. And so just to even go back to my story, like I was hurt by the church, but I was healed by the church. And it talks about, you said it in James 5, 16, like confess your sins to one another, pray for each other so that you may be healed. Like we all want to experience healing and freedom. You only get that in doing life with other godly people, living in the light, confessing, being held accountable, like walking with each other, correcting each other, encouraging one another. Like that's what we're called to do. So I'm just, I'm so thankful for what you guys are doing here in Nashville for the way that you're using your time, talent, treasure, your platform, your voice, all of it, your story. It's beautiful. And I just know it's going to encourage so many people. I'd love for you to just close us in prayer and pray over those listening for a year of being plugged in and being known by people. 2026 will be your best year if you make 2026 the most spiritual year of your life and you go all in for Jesus and his bride. So Lord, we say thank you for everything that you are doing in the lives of each and every person that is connected to this podcast today. God, I pray that you would bless them richly from the top of their head to the soles of their feet. If there's anybody watching today that's sick in their body, tormented in their mind, upset in their soul, God, I pray for healing to come to you right now. In Jesus name, no matter where you're listening to this at, it could be on YouTube. You might be in your car. I just pray that the Holy Spirit would rest upon you now, heal you and bring you into a place of fullness in his presence. Jesus, we thank you for this podcast and for everything that you're doing through my new friends. God, I bless them in Jesus' name. We love you so much, Lord. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. It's amazing, man. Gosh, this was so good. I want to keep going. Yeah, we're going to Kentucky. He's got to catch a flight. Let's go. I know he's got to catch a flight. Let's go to Lexington. The castle, come on. As always, guys, be sure to stay you and stay true. We love you. McD