4.21. The Hate Mail Episode

What's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of Nobody Asked Us with Des and Kara presented by Brooks Running. This is an episode where we're probably going to get hate mail, but we always get hate mail. Anyways, that was the pep talk given to us by Chris McClung. So here we go. What's going on, Kara? I'm kind of dreading this actually. It's such a slow week in the running world and there's just really kind of gossipy stuff going on, but I'm doing good. Good. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I feel like the track season's picking up. It wants to get going. It's getting going kind of slowly, but surely. Some meets on the horizon. We're going to see some distant stars, step back into action, state side, and then there's Diamond Leagues kind of ramping up. But I do feel like it's just a weird lull right now. It is. It's honestly like the only lull because even I feel like in the winter, there's a marathon every other weekend that is happening. I mean, I guess the Diamond League officially kicked off last week, which is always exciting, but it's early. So it's not, it doesn't tell you a lot. The Times aren't insane. Pretty fast three thousands. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the women's steeple was like, now I'm pulling from my head. I feel like it was like 851 though. It was pretty quick for the first meet of the year. But yeah, I think there was a men's 3000 with a bunch of guys running pretty quick under 730. Yeah, the men's three was really good too. Crankin. Yeah. I mean, the races weren't bad. It's just, you know, you're like building the momentum. You're not going to watch it. Right. I'm asleep. Yeah. Anyhow, worth keeping an eye on moving forward. Moving forward, yes. What'd you get up to this weekend? Anything fun? We'll call it, have the state meet on Thursday. Oh, before we get into anything. Okay. A very devoted listener named Adam Goucher, marched in from walking the dogs and told me, I need to give a correction because apparently I said that Colt PR'd on tired legs and around 204 in the 800 when in fact, and you can look it up because they take splits of this now because that's like technology at its finest actually doing good stuff. He ran 202.4. And so I needed to correct that. That is, that's worthy of the correction. I was thinking in the 3200, the two mile, I was like, well, it's still nice, but in 800 for sure. That's, yeah. Yes. Yes. It's worth saying. But so he had the state meet on Thursday. And it was a really good learning experience. What's interesting looking back is that he's the only kid that got their qualifier. Like he literally got his qualifier six days before. And he ran out of his mind to get that, right? Yeah. Then he came back the next day and ran 202. Which was a PR on extremely tired legs. And he has just felt tired. And like in the lead up to the state meet, he was like, I just feel tired. And I was like, oh, the adrenaline's going to take you and this and that. And looking back, we could see when all the kids qualified and most of the kids, not all, but most of the kids hit their qualifying marks back in March. So they could like be rested for state where he was still not recovered from running 925, you know. But it was a good experience. He didn't want to be last. He definitely wasn't last. He finished 14th. The race was really strategic. He's never been in a race like that. And I was proud of him. Like he just stuck with the lead pack. And then when they like blasted with the K to go, he was gone. And that's okay. He doesn't have, yeah, he doesn't have that in his like tool belt yet, right? But it was pretty interesting talking to him after because he was like, mom, they'd run really hard for like 200 meters and then they'd walk for 200 meters and then they'd run really hard. And he was like, it was so distracting. I was like, oh, yeah, championship racing. Welcome to the big leagues, kid. So I think he was a little shell shocked by how the race unfolded. At first, he was happy though, because he plays higher than he he want. He was just did not want to be last, you know, and so he was like super happy. But then that night, he was like, I wish I had done better. And I was like, honey, you're a freshman and you were still tired. And you did so great. Like this was actually the best situation for you to go in and have zero pressure and zero expectation. And you learned all this stuff. This actually couldn't have worked out better for you, honestly. You know, so I was like trying to pump them up. No, that's a great way to get experience. But you know, if you want to be like, that was so fun getting experience. Right. It's like, that was awesome. Getting my ass kicked over 1000 meters. Getting your ass kicked. Yeah, it was a great experience. But yeah, no, it was good. And I think he like feels like at first he was relieved by his place, but then he was kind of disappointed with his race. And I think he's feeling much better about it now. As he should. I mean, he ran great. It was a great season. He has two meets left. He's running the what is he running? He wanted to run another mile because he ran he ran 3200 four weeks in a row. So he's running a mile in Alabama this weekend. And then he got an invite to the Brooks PR freshman national championship. So he'll run another mile June 7th. And then he'll take a big break. Yeah, another mile, which is really exciting. That's like a dream come true for him. Like he's gone to Brooks PR with me the last two years. And last year he said, I'm not coming back till I get invited. It's like, I love everybody here. But it's like, you know, it's like, yeah, I think we talked about this last year, you're like watching your peers. And so I think you got in off of his two mile time to be honest, because if you convert it for altitude, it's one of the top times in the country for freshmen. So I'm excited for him to be a part of that. He's super excited about it. And then he'll take a big break. Nice. So some break, some break year on deck. I love it. Yeah, I know he has his last final. He has a final one final on Thursday. And then he's done with high school his freshman year. So just with his freshman year. Yeah. Yeah, no, this year has flown by. It's been crazy. It is wild that like high schools, it's almost summer. Yeah. Are you getting warm weather? Are you getting outside to run? What's going on with the temps? Last week? It was the lowest form of conversation. But I know what they're like. I know. How Midwest are we right now? The weather was so hot last week, so hot until Sunday. And Sunday, there was a gathering of like, CU people, and it was in an outdoor tent. And it was real feel was like 38 degrees, and it was like pouring rain and so cold. And then yesterday, I had to go to the call, I had to go to Colorado Springs for a board meeting. And when I was flying home or flying, when I was driving home through Monument, white out snow, like snow conditions, I couldn't, I was like driving 40 miles an hour. I couldn't see the car in front of me. And we have rain this entire week, cold temps like 40, it's like 40 degrees outside right now. And it's raining. It's going to be like this, I think it's going to warm up, but still rain the entire week. So it's so it's just like last week, it was 90. Yeah, it's this time of year. Yeah. And you'll just, I don't know, it's like that is spring, that's spring, right? But it's like, no, it's so winter, and then it's summer. Yeah, is it like that in Michigan? It's kind of been the same, like warnings in the high 30s. But then you go to run the last couple of days, it's been like 70s and sticky, like sticky. Oh yeah, they're humid there. Yeah, so yeah, it's fine, no complaints, but I don't know how is the running, how is the running the coming back from your little break that you took a real break? I'm still so proud of you. That was a long break. Yeah, it's, I hate, I love taking a break because I actually just like to not run. Like I really enjoyed that. And then I when I get out of the routine of running every day, I'm like, Oh, like I could just never start back up again and find a new sport. But I think, like I've been really patient coming back, like I'm running like four to five miles a day. And yeah, they're like good quality miles instead of running, forcing like eight to 10, but being like, Oh my God, I can't get through this is miserable. Yeah, so it's coming along. But I got to kind of ramp it up soon. If I'm going to get back into this running thing, otherwise, I'll just be done forever. You will never be done forever. We'll see. What was your, okay, so I had to run on Sunday morning with a bunch of old people, most of the people that I didn't go to college with, but like CU runners. And what was your team atmosphere like? Because on at CU, Sunday was the most important day of the week. We met at eight o'clock, we did our long run. And it wasn't not an all out effort, but basically an all out effort. And if you stopped to go to the bathroom, you're screwed. No one's waiting for you. So we meet, we're all in our like 30s, 40s, 50s. We meet for this long run. And everyone's like, we're not going to do that. We're not going to get caught up on this. And then sure enough, I won't name names, but someone took off and then everyone went with them. And Laura, we were like, we're not getting roped into this. We are adults. We are not doing this. And but it was so funny. It's like so ingrained in anyone that ran at CU that the Sunday run is like so important and that you just have to hurt the whole time. And it just made me laugh. I mean, no one that was there is still running professionally. And yet we all think it can't be changed. So what was your college team like? Were you guys really serious like that? Yeah, it was the same stuff. Like even you come out of, I was trying to tell Ryan this, I don't know, it was recently, but like you come off of summer break. And like we had to have a coach run with us every day for the first like two weeks, because it was like, okay, no faster than six flat guys, like this is an easy run. And like, you know, everyone's just trying to earn their spot on the team. And you're right in Sunday long runs, we would go to South Mountain, if anyone who's in the Phoenix area knows that. And it's actually like a really gnarly trail run now that I think back to it was like, I can't believe we did that. But it would get single track pretty early. And so it gets super competitive, like elbows up, because if you could like split the group in that section, then it would like kind of widen back up at the top and you would, you know, you would, it would divide up and you'd be like, shit, I missed the break, like that type of stuff. Yeah. So you would have to get around certain people, if you wanted to run in the front group, or you'd be like, everyone needs to stop at the top so that I can get around the slow people. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it was the same, which is really bad. It was so intense, because it was like our most important run of the week. And like, Laura Thweet and I were laughing so hard, but also like trying so hard to not get roped up in it. We're like, okay, they're actually not moving any further away from us. Like, should we close the gap? And we're like, no, we're a grown woman. We're not doing this. You push a mile and I'll push a mile. Like, no. What are we doing? I remember being in college and like having to pee so bad, but like not wanting to stop because I know I'm going to get dropped and then I'm going to have to do another 14 miles by myself. So anyway, it was really funny. And then afterwards we were all laughing about it. Even all of us were laughing that we still have that uber competitive craziness that was ingrained in us at CU that your Sunday run should always hurt from the minute you start until the moment you finish. You're like doing a warm-up before everyone gets there. Oh, when I move back, because they like, 6 0 5s out of the gate, you know, so when I moved back and I was still a professional, I was like in my upper 30s, I'm like, I can't do that. So they would, you know, they would drive out and I would leave 15 minutes earlier and I would jog like a 10 minute mile and stretch. I'm dead serious. So like I'm running, I have a 20 minute, we call it on the docket or on the the document. I'd have, I'd be assigned 20 or something, but I actually end up running like 21 and a half miles because I would get there earlier. I'm like, I can't do this. You guys are so young and like, like your joints just spring to action. I physically cannot do this. Like I have to actually warm up into this effort. Right. But it's also like you would be fine three miles in. Right. Cool. Like I can run with you. I'm just not doing it straight out of the gates. I think that's always been the biggest challenge. Like, oh, it takes so long to recover, things like that. I've never really noticed a ton of that, but I'm like, if recover means the first mile, you're like, I need a 750 high, you know, if I'm off a really big session, maybe it's going to be 810. Yeah. But then that next mile will be seven flat and then like I can get right into it. And then you're rolling. Not right into it. I can get into it. But yeah, like an eight minute mile now is not unusual for the first, you know, and we live both places where at you got to like a little uphill too. So yeah, maybe 745s if I were somewhere flat. Yeah, I do think that's part of aging. It's like I can get there. Even I remember when I would run with those young women, I would be like, this is crazy. I would be dying for the first three miles, just like kill me. And then eight miles and I'm like, Oh, see you guys later. Wrong with you bitches. I'm going to pick it up. But it just takes my body longer to just get into the rhythm. It's not that you can't do it. You just can't do it out the gate. Like you can't. Better warm ups, longer warm ups. Yeah. Harder warm ups. Well, it was humbling. It was great. I'm so glad I went. It was great. That sounds fun. That's really funny. I feel like maybe that'll be with the angry emails come in. They'll be like, lies. I know. I know. The women, we all laughed about it. I didn't say your names, but you know who you are. You know, you promised me the night before over a margarita at the Rio that you weren't going to do that to me. And you did it to me anyway. It was a margarita. They threw that margarita out. They put Gatorade in or some type of electrolyte drink. They totally set me up. Thank goodness for Laura Sweet because she was like, I'm we're not doing this character. That's hilarious. I love that. All right. Well, I guess we can get into running. That said, this has been a dull week, but there's been a lot of gossip. I don't know. Yeah, gossipy stuff. We're just going to chat internet bullshit. Yeah. Okay. Let's start with the satisfy activation. That's been like the hot topic. Adidas by satisfy collaboration. Take a group of runners, content creators, influencers down to Tucson area and rent out a skate park and put together, I think it was called, was it the pit? The circle maybe. Okay. Something like that. That sounds like that. I think the circle was a horror movie. The circle pit, something of that nature. Maybe it was called the circle pit. I feel like circle was in it, but honestly, I don't know that much. I haven't been paying that much attention. Would you like to look it up? No. Did you watch any of it? No. I didn't watch any of it. Okay. This is where I'm going to get hate mail. That's just like not interesting to me. And I just only have so much time to like pay attention to stuff. Yeah. I was a little surprised at like the anger towards it from some people because at the end of the day, it's like, well, you don't have to participate or buy their stuff. Yeah. And what did you think? And then we can dive into this more. I think it's just so easy to poke fun at just because and I think there is a little bit like when you're just watching it, you don't know what the experience is. You don't know what the relationships are like. You don't know what the event, the whole complete picture was like, it could have been awesome. But I think when you just see these snippets, it's easy to critique and make fun. And I think in general, like this sort of grunge punk scene is fine. I don't know the problem with that, but when you put a luxury tag on it, it just sort of becomes this contradiction. And that's the part that's like easy to be like what are you doing out there? But all that to say is like, a lot of people I think see it weren't there weren't invited and go like, oh, I'm gonna make fun of this. And then some people are genuinely like, what is this? I just don't understand it. I mean, I think I fall into that camp a little bit. Yeah, where I'm seeing this and I'm like, wait, what? What's happening? And it almost feels like it's trying super hard to be something. Yeah. And I don't know that much about this brand, but it's a premium, right? It's very expensive apparel. And I think they have shoes or one pair of shoes, I think it's a European brand. And like, it's, it's like a luxury, which is the funny like luxury is the word that you would attach to it, but it's grunge. So that's right. Yeah. I think it just makes me think of bigger picture stuff like you don't, you just don't have to buy it. And like, it's not my scene. That doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. You know, and yeah, I just kind of think like, I'm old school, I came up through like competitive running, I still love competitive running, that's like the scene that I relate to the most. So I see some of this stuff and I'm like, what the fuck are we doing out there? Okay, there's like, someone's like playing the guitar and some running on this little track, like, what, what's that? You know, but just because I don't get it, doesn't mean it should be like shamed. I think that the running industry in general is in this moment of people are trying to really be different. And the old woman in me is like, why? Who cares? We have, it's great, but also it doesn't hurt me. It doesn't hurt me that a bunch of people gathered in the desert and played punk music and ran around a little track and that doesn't, it doesn't take away from the things that I love about running. Right. So I don't know. I guess I guess I go back to like the track Smith when they were like, hey, we're getting into trail. And it was like, pooh pooh. And for all the same reasons, but it's just the complete opposite side of the spectrum in like what that experience was. It was like, this is preppy. This is, you know, snooty. This isn't trail. And there's all of these ideas of what it should be. Yeah. I think that I feel like I'm in high school again. Yeah. Where everything's, I think it was Allison who works at the watch company, Amaze Fit. I'm probably saying it wrong. But she was like, I feel like I'm watching high school clicks, you know, form and like poke fun at each other. It just feels like that's what is happening. But all that to say, you could coexist and everyone got through high school. I mean, we don't have to do it to that degree and like try to win. Like it doesn't have to be a contest of like who's running, running better. You know, it's just like, that's how you do it. That's how you do it. And there's space for everyone to do running the way they want to do it. And it does seem like it exists. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is where the hate mail comes in. But it seems like it's more of a trail thing. Like I think trail is so hot right now. And it's trying to find its identity and these little clicky ways of doing it are popping up that are like, not like that, not like that, not like that. Yeah. Just what I see. Yeah. Well, before we started this conversation, we were talking to Chris and he was telling us about a pretty good trail athlete that's sort of avoiding the bigger races now because she doesn't want to be around all of the like, the media and the attention and the circus kind of surrounding it. So I definitely hear what you're saying. I feel like it's just shifting and it's finding its way and it's growing and there's so many new voices and so many new opinions. And I hate the word gatekeeping because I feel like it gets overused all the time. But maybe there's an old guard a little bit being like, no, you're not doing it right. And, you know, like if you, if they're coming into Western states and just being like, no, I'm going to run here, that's one thing, right? But if they're like sitting in the desert, running on a track, doing something that like makes zero sense to me or you, who cares? Right. Yeah. I mean, and that's, it's like, it is this opportunity to create an audience that never existed before. Like, oh, I really liked those four bands. Right. And then you're looking at their tour, you're listening to their music and you see this running activation, you're like, oh, shit, that's actually cool. Like, maybe I need a pair of running shoes. Yeah. You know, I mean, it would be interesting to know if, because it's all over social media right now, right? And we're talking about it. So it's definitely getting people talking. Does that translate to growth through the brand? That would be interesting to know. Like, is it actually pulling in new customers who are going to pay a premium for a grungy t-shirt with holes in it? I don't know. Maybe, maybe they will because they'll feel seen or, but like, I feel like a lot of people that love grunge and stuff can, I mean, that's like, actually, I have no idea. But it seems like, can you afford a $350 t-shirt and why would you want it? But I don't know. It's, well, it's, I mean, they're brands doing stuff right for sure. Like, you see it on a lot of, and I don't know if they're giving it away or what, but you see it on a lot of really popular folks. Like, Sebastian Vettel, Formula One driver back in the day, world champion, ran London, ran in all, satisfied head to toe. You're like, oh, that's wild. Like, so, and there's like a number of names that you'll see and they pop up and you're like, oh, like, I know what that shirt is. I mean, there's probably a better material for you than cotton with holes, but you got to start somewhere. I think that's what threw me off is because I didn't know what the brand was. And so I heard all this controversy. And then I went to their Instagram and I'm like, wait, this is like, I'm back in the 90s in high school running in big t-shirts that are not fitted that are big, that are flopping around in my arms. Like, I don't, like, I don't get it. And that's okay that I don't get it. But I was like, oh, I really don't get it. And that maybe I'm going to get the comments that like, I'm old and I don't get it. And you're right. You are right because I actually did run in that stuff back in the 90s. And I would, it was so not efficient for my body. It was like a, like held sweat. It was heavy. It was like, like moved around so much when I ran. And I don't, I've, I would never go back to that. But that doesn't mean that it's not for someone else. Right. Well, it's also like, if that's where you started in the sport, and you're like, oh, like I, you know, jog here and there. And I'm Travis Barker stepping off the drums and like, going to go run and not be an addict. Great. And then if you really get into it, and you're like, actually, they're like, oh, maybe this tech shirt's better. Maybe I need a Brooks, whatever, like, right, right. You can, you can graduate up to more mature materials. Right. Yeah. That was an advertisement, guys. We are presented with Brooks. Yeah. I mean, do you consider it performative running to have an event like that? I mean, I think it's an activation. So kind of, but also who cares, you know? I do think there's just this general battle for attention, period. But then also in running as well, like you see it with the influencers, you see it with content. And it's weird because I mean, I, again, we're doing the old Cremagian stuff, but it's like running was so uncool for so long. So long. And now it's like the way to tell a story, right? Like my journey, my fitness journey, my goals, my marathon journey, my trail journey, my like, it's just like something that everyone has access to, which is the awesome part. But the fact that everyone has access and then needs to share it is, it's not good or bad. It's just different. And that is like blowing my mind because you, and again, we're flooded with stuff that we're interested in when we open socials and things like that. And our news is curated and all the things, but it feels like it's like everywhere now. Yeah. I have a hard time with running social media. I follow a ton of athletes for work because I want to know what they're up to. And the their posts versus like, and not to like shit on influencers, but like an influencers post is like so different, you know, one is like, I'm working towards the goal. And there's exceptions on every side, by the way. But the other one is like flash bang, boom, look at me. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like I'm glad that you're running and I'm glad that you like have a partnership. But I do feel like it's, it's constantly trying to just make it even bigger, even louder, even, and I'm like, guys, it's running. Right. You know, I do. Yeah. I mean, I think we talked about this a little last week with it's like the one upsmanship of like, I did a 200 miler, I did a 250 miler, like I ran across the, what was the one? It was to the West Coast, it was from like the, I don't know, somewhere in the desert and all the way to California. Like speed project stuff. Yeah. So like, it's just like the like leveling up is constant. And I don't know that that's necessarily good. Like. Someone asked me yesterday, if I if I'm sad that I came before NIL, that like based on my college stats, I probably would have had an NIL deal. And it really made me pause because I was like, you know, I'm old. I didn't have a cell phone in college. So I definitely didn't have an NIL and I there wasn't even social media yet. Like Facebook started after I graduated. And there's something about missing all of that that I'm so grateful about. I'm so grateful that I wasn't having to like, promote my brand, which is another word that I can't stand that gets used all the time. And like having to make it more of a job and actually thinking about how I'm sharing my story with people instead of just like living it and actually just being in it. And it's like a roundabout way of saying it. It makes me think about this conversation too of it's just like, it's there so much of it is about showmanship and wanting one up being and stuff instead of like, and this makes me sound old again, instead of just like being there and experiencing it. And that doesn't necessarily mean they're in the wrong or anything. It's just so different from the way I experienced it. So it's, I'm kind of grateful that I missed all that to be totally honest, like, sure, maybe I'd have more money in the bank. But I don't know, I'm actually kind of relieved that I missed all that stuff. Yeah. And I think even with that, it's like maybe upfront, but then how many kids are just going to get burnt out? Or it's like, what are your social stats? What do you do? Right? Like, how are you selling this? And so I think it's pushing kids to work harder younger, like you're doing more because that is something that wasn't like dangling out there before, like cash in on this now. So let's, let's do that. And then it becomes a job earlier. Yep. And there's burnout is going to probably, I don't know, maybe not, maybe I won't, maybe you just don't know any difference. So it is what it is. But it seems like burnout will, we'll see, we'll see. We'll see. But it seems like kids are going to burn out. That's what it seems like, right? Like, that's how I feel. I also wonder, like, when does, when does social media as an influential thing burn out? When, when is the pendulum swing? Like, we see people going analog all the time, you know, it's like, I want a film camera, I want a book, like a notebook to write in a pencil and paper and, you know, records and albums and I like get me off my device. And I just feel like you're that's cool right now. I don't know if that's just like the 90s trends coming back in and like pretty soon it'll be like, Oh, no, no, like, let's, let's get that iPhone back out. Right. But yeah, I don't, I think that that'll, there'll be a change. I think there'll be a change in how much we see this stuff matter because it just seems completely saturated. Yeah. I mean, the other thing is too, that it's like, everything just lasts a moment. Like, you know, I wasn't on my phone very much this weekend. And then I was like, just because I knew we were going to be recording, I'm like, Well, what the hell happened this weekend? And then it was like all satisfied or doping. And but I'm like, in two weeks, we'll have moved on to something else. And I think that obviously we know that's unhealthy. And I think that the anger we feel about stuff is so unhealthy. We're not meant to just like rage all the time about every little thing. Like we're allowed to rage about real life stuff. But it's like, we rage every time we open social media, like this is not sustainable. And we're not supposed to live like this. No, I fully agree with that. I think that everything has become heightened to a degree that's unhealthy. It's like, I don't want to be passionate about, I don't want to be passionate about satisfied in any way at all. Right. I mean, like, it's not totally neutral. Yeah. I don't want to steal any emotion from me. Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's a kind of like a shift. Okay. I feel like this topic is going to be more controversial. This is for sure. And that's, I think it's just, I think it speaks to like the complexity of it, not necessarily like, it's not a hot button, like a meat, like in my opinion, it's not a hot button immediately like fuck no, or fuck yes, it's like, oh, this is so when you really start to dig into that what it means, it could impact so many people in so many different ways. Thus, it's confusing and I don't know how to feel about it. But let's go ahead and tee it up. I'm like nervous to talk about this. I don't know why. But it's Cam Haynes, right? Yes. Cam Haynes. And he, I don't actually know him, but he's like a podcaster and he's a variant of fitness and stuff. And he is in his fifties. He ran the Eugene Marathon. He ran a big PR. He ran 237. And then Sage Canada noted that Eugene Marathon was USATF certified and that Cam has admitted to using peptides and other performance enhancing stuff that is banned in USATF certified races. And I think what shocked me about this is kind of like the Viterol that Sage has gotten over it. But I think that's why the nuanced conversation is interesting because you and I chatted about it a little bit earlier and it just made me think about some other stuff. But so essentially Sage was like, people are like, love this guy. He's a huge influencer. He knows a lot of athletes, a lot of athletes. And they seem to have great relationship with him. And he loves our sport, but he is quote unquote doping and racing and selling this false narrative of how he got here, basically. And then I read that this morning that Sage reported him to USADA. And so I think I saw last week that Cam answered back to Sage. I know that Sage has gotten a lot of really negative things. I did see some comments of like, Cam doesn't care. And I'm like, well, Cam does care because he's talked about Sage on his podcast and he responded to Sage. So that's actually not the comeback you think it is. It definitely bothers him to some level. And so yeah, basically that's the drama. And it's really people are really divided on it. I find that absolutely fascinating. I know Cam a little bit. I've done his podcast. I didn't know about, you know, this stuff he used or that he said that I think you could look at his physique and be like, he's probably getting an assist here. But I also don't consider him like a pro. Like, I guess I didn't realize how much he was into competing at races. I know that he lifts quite a bit for bow hunting and like, if you kill a whatever an elk or a deer, bear, whatever, you're carrying it out. And so I can kind of get like, okay, I need to have this sort of build for this career, whatever. I'm shocked. I guess I'm shocked that people are immediately like picking sides and like pissed because when I like start to tear it apart and like look at all the different angles of it, I'm just like, I don't really know. I don't know the answer. Like I don't, I don't think it's as simple as fuck this guy or fuck that guy. I'm like, wow, like, if you take Cam out of it and his personality and you say 58 year old person who is trying to treat something that maybe didn't follow you saw the rules is now healthy and wants to run, you know, a 5k with their family. I just think that's way more complex than athlete who wants to win and perform well. And I don't know what I would say. Like I think there's so many life scenarios for that type of individual cam aside that it makes me go like, is this what I want you saw to policing? Like what do I want you saw to resources? What are you saw to the whole thing used for? And like, are we getting into morality police a little bit? Like what do we and I go back and forth on it because I can completely understand people who are fighting for positions in these races, which is really hard to get into now being like, no, fuck that, like, follow the rules know the rules. But like, as a pro who knows the resources, I'm like, do I want these very, very limited things allocated for educating the masses that don't quite fall into the same type of rules. So I don't know, I'm conflicted. But that's kind of a cop out. So I don't know. Go ahead. What do you feel like? Well, I kind of take a hard stance of like, if it's sanctioned by USATF, it's not your like right to do these events. It's a privilege, right? And if they have rules and the rules say you can't dope, then you can't you can't you can't do it. Like, whether you did it for health or not, that's just like a consequence. I feel like if Lance Armstrong was like, Hey, I'm in my 50s. Now who cares? People will be like, fuck you. You know, you don't get to be here. So I but I'm also like, cam is not the only person taking this stuff. So if we're like really, really upset, like, I think we have a big culture problem then because there's so much doping, I think in master's categories to qualify for Boston for all this stuff. And so it's like, okay, like, I mean, for me, it's like, I wish cam would just be like, I didn't know those were the rules and, you know, whatever. If he if he did, I don't want him to say that. True. That's true. That's true. Like, yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. No, I agree. I don't want him to lie or anything like that. So maybe he did know and he just didn't care. And I'm like, well, that's unfortunate. But I just feel like that when you do some of these events, not everybody gets to do them. There's certain things that have to be followed. But I also think that people are doing this stuff way more than we think. And that doesn't excuse him doing it or anything like that. But it's just we have a much bigger problem. Like, where do we draw the line? And if you're doing, if you're into anti-aging and you're doing all this stuff, and you just want to run a marathon, and you're not trying to make a qualifying time, should we care? Right. That's the question. Yeah. And I mean, I can argue it both ways. I can argue, like, yes, we should care. It's like, there's not enough research. And if you're promoting your time and how you did, like, you actually didn't do it ethically, you know? But then there's part of me that's also like, I mean, I don't really care if you're not, if you're not racing in a USATF sanctioned race and you're not trying to get into Boston, like, that's like, it's not my life. So I kind of, I don't know. I'm kind of like, yeah, yeah, I guess like, you can go through so many scenarios. And like, I just think of, like, my dad worked in manual labor, he's swinging a hammer all day. If he tweaks his back and they say, this is the best way to get ready to get back to work and feed your family as quick as possible. And he's like, got, I'm doing it. And then, you know, he finds out three weeks later, oh, that's like banned on the USATList and I can't run a 5Q with my daughter. You know what I mean? Like, there's just so many scenarios where you're like, I don't know. I just, it makes me pause. I don't know if it's putting the education front and center on these races. Like, if you want that label, if you want that certification, like, you have to show the education to the masses, like, in a more clear way. So then if like, my dad tweaks his back and he's like, I'm going to do this 5K, like, let me see, you know, like, he can take the time to educate himself and then make the decision accordingly. That's a hypothetical, I'm just saying, like, you know, there's people doing stuff like that all the time. And like, I don't know where running fits in in the priority list, you know, it's like, yeah, but I really want to do that. And then I think the answer for most people is just ignore it. Like, I'm just going to lie, I'm going to, it doesn't exist. And then I go to the race itself, like, if you want those rules, and if you're going to require everyone play by those rules, then you should enforce those rules, right? And so, I feel like it's a little bit on the races to decide how much they want to police the masses and then be really clear about that. And then if you are coca-dona and you put that on your website and you only have a race of what, like 500 people, 1000 people, like, vet the rules, like follow, follow your rules. So I don't know, I just, I can see examples from both sides, but also, like, as a professional, you're just like, well, know the fucking rules like that. And this is the thing that you always go back to is like, this is your job, like, don't not fill out whereabouts, because this is your fucking job. Like, don't accidentally do whatever, this is your job. And then when it's not your job, you're like, I don't have that. Totally. I also, I also find like, the reaction from people very interesting, because I see a lot of people like attacking Sage and defending Cam, and it's, and it's like, they're making excuses for why it's fine. And it reminds me of when Shelby Hullahan tested positive, and it was like, people who liked or knew her, like defended her, which is totally understandable. But other people were like, I mean, if she was from any other country, we'd be like, she has nanderland in her system, right? And I feel like we're seeing that same thing, people that would normally hold someone accountable or like, why do we fucking care? He's not taking, yeah. So it's super like that part of it kind of makes me chuckle, because I'm like, Oh, that's life in general, like people will just make up a narrative that fits what protects the people they care about. Yeah. And like their beliefs, I just, you know, everybody knows I'm like a hard stance kind of gal, like you have to follow the rules. And so I think he should probably be dequeued from the race. But I also think there's probably so many more people that are doing stuff in the race. And that's where I'm like, yeah, it's like, well, if we are going to have these rules, then what are we doing to really make sure they're followed? You know, it's one thing to be like, you can't dope in our race, but you don't drug test anybody. Right. You know, so it's, it's that's where I'm like, I, I don't want my son seeing all this stuff and thinking he can take peptides and thinking it's fine and this and that. But, but you know, it's like partially my responsibility to tell them, no, you can't do that. And these guys are not trying to become collegiate athletes like you are. And I don't, I don't know. I don't like it. I don't like anyone cheating. But I also am like, this is such a huge problem. Yeah, I think it's, I guess that's where the, the funny part with the knee jerk where people have just stood in a camp and it's like, we haven't even talked about all the different scenarios of, you know, what, what could be happening and what could we do better? And what could be, you know, it's obviously a problem. Yeah. We talked a little bit about like maybe you're in the open field, but you just have to declare it. You know what I mean? And, and then, and I think that's the thing is for, for the pros, it's a level playing field, right? And you want to know how good you were, where you stacked up and like, yes, money, yes, recognition, all of that stuff is on the line. But I guess if you're in the masses and it was like, well, Cam beat me, you can just go, yeah, like he's a cheat. I know he's on that. Like he declared it, you know, like, yeah, and it moves you up your spot. Like mentally, you can, and I don't know, I'm not in that position. So maybe someone will be like, no, fuck you. But like, I feel like mentally, you could wrap your mind around that. Like, well, I would have been like five places higher. But it's the person who is not transparent and then like, pretends and sells you on the lie that is, then you question it. You're like, well, I think that guy's cheating. But, you know, and, I don't know, maybe there's a process where it's like, why don't you just have the people in the masses declare what they're on? If it falls on those, the list of band, you're not getting an age group award. You're not getting recognized. I don't know, maybe you put a cap on their qualifiers, like, okay, you can do this once every age group or once in your lifetime or you know what I mean, like, I don't know, maybe there should be parameters around it. And then it's, it ultimately goes back to an honor system. Like, because my thing is, I don't want any of these resources, the pros are hard enough to police. I know, I don't want those resources. I don't want them looking to campaigns. Right. Say you to like, and it's not say just fall, I'm not mad at him, but I'm just saying like, that's a resource that could have gone to like testing whoever, you know, and maybe it's a slam dunk. Like, Oh, yeah, we saw it here. And so thus he's, he's banned. Right. I, yeah. But I know, I don't, I know, I agree with you. I don't, I don't understand why cams getting hated on. I'm like, he cares about clean sport. And he, you know, something about cam running 237 and being like, holy crap, I ran 237 really bothered him. And I actually can see it. I can see it. And I can get it. Well, it's irritating. You're also like, you're like, you didn't. Yeah. But I also don't want the resources going there because there aren't the, and so that's where it's difficult because I don't want to tell like someone in the masses, like your race isn't as important, but the resources are so limited that I'm like, I don't really want us like drug testing, 55 year old and 58 year old men. I want us like drug testing the people who are making their living at this. And maybe that's unfair because I'm not right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just, I think we're an endless pot of money. Right. Then sure. Test the way. If you put that on your site, if this is the way you're going to handle your race and these are the rules you want, then yeah, like implement your rules. Yes. And I also think this is going to be a huge problem because online pharmacies have blown up. Yeah. And there's no regulation right now. And not even with the government, there's regulation. And I just think like this is a huge problem that's way too big for you and I to solve. But it's only going to get bigger and it's only going to get worse. And I just think it's like kind of like ringing the alarm bells. Like guys, this is like, it is so easy to get stuff off the internet anymore. It's so easy. Well, and that's, I think, where you talk about the masses and what the percentages might be. Like you go into lifetime fitness, you go into any gym and there's like feel entire, come on in for two yards. You know what I mean? Like it's like on the back of your back doors. It's all over the walls. And Wall Street Journal just did an article on peptides in like that's the next game, I'm sure. And it's like how many young, young kids are just like getting into this because they saw there again, the influencer, the person who's showing up in their feed and telling them that this is what you have to do. So then you go back to Cam and you're that guy and I don't love that. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know if I can give credit to the transparency or not. We were talking about like the shiny shirt turd. This is the lowest bar. Well, at least he's not selling his lifestyle and his times and his physique and being like, yeah, just like eat your eggs, kids. Right, right. Like, I don't know, but that's that shouldn't be the bar. I, Colton, I watched and Adam, we all watched together this documentary on Netflix about the liver king. And it was fascinating, but it was actually super good to watch with Colt about and like he was this huge influence. It's so obvious he was roided to the max, you know, like but people believed he was clean. And they were like, no, no, he just eats liver and works out all day. And I'm like, no, that's not how the human, you know, like I had the most meticulous diet and ran 135 miles a week. I know what's what you can actually achieve and what you can't. Like you, that's just, you know, but it's, it's, I would recommend it to people. It's very like, you know, bro culture stuff, but it's interesting. And that's the stuff that our kids are seeing. So it's worth watching for sure. That's what's showing up on their feeds. But, you know, he was so deceptive about everything, denying it all the time. And I think a lot of the guys are like that, right? So yeah, we're talking about like a shiny turd like, yeah, Cam said he did it. So but it shines a little bit better, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know what the future of peptides is either like, are they going to, you're going to have a whole stack that you're like, actually, these are totally healthy. You should be doing this as a way to forward. This is going to like, I mean, if they came out with a peptide that they said, Kara, this is banned, but your dystonia will be 100% be gone. Like that's a conflict, right? Right. Right. That's, that's a tough, tough decision. But you know, I mean, maybe there's something in there like this will change your future. But what if you had an issue and you couldn't race anymore, and then there was a peptide that's banned that fixed it, would you take it and compete again? Or would you just take it so you could move your body the way you could again? Like I'm like, well, maybe I would take it, but maybe it's because I was a professional and I got fucked by so many dopers that I'm like, oh, well, racing is obviously off the table, but I don't care because I'm just going to go run my ass off and be happy and, you know, and not have the competitive part. I guess that's like kind of the, I just think it's, it's more complex than people think if you were like, right. Yeah, 100%. I'm taking it, I feel normal. This is like changing my, like I'm happier, like I can, you know, solve problems, I can meet with friends. And then you're at the BAA 5K, like, okay, we have a bib, do you want to jog? And you're like, well, I'm just jogging. Yeah. And nobody knows, you know what I mean? Like whatever, I just, I could see, I could see where someone would be conflicted. Like this makes my life, running enhances my life. And this helps me run. But then all this whole world's been taken away. And you have to make the moral decision. Like, yeah, who does this hurt? Who does not hurt? Does this really so like, I don't know, I'm not saying, I don't know what I would do. Like, I guess, obviously, again, we've been on the pro side where you're like, no, like, you just don't compete, or you get a TUE or whatever, like, I'm still in the pool. So like TUE is for sure, whatever, I mean, but I don't think everyone would think that way, especially if you're not even educated on USADA, Wattus, et cetera, you're just like, well, yeah, I feel better and I like I'm at this event, of course, I'm going to run it. Yeah. And does someone pay the price? Probably. Like someone couldn't get a bib, somebody lost a spot at the finish, like, so I don't know. I don't have an answer. No, it's just interesting and it's good to talk about it like with a calm person instead of being like, like, you're not coming back at me being like, fuck you, you're thinking about defending a doper, I'm not saying that to you. Like, I feel like for me, I feel pretty confident and like, if you're running one of these sanctioned events and those are the rules, then you can't do it. And I say that out loud knowing that so many people are cheating. And we're basically just asking for the honor system. But I still, that's how I feel. But I'm also like, if someone has dystonia, like that's the perfect example. And it's like stolen this experience for them and they take it and they can run normally and they just want to run a race that's not sanctioned, like, do I care? I mean, I'm kind of like, I don't know, do I care? Like, it doesn't, I think it gets so, it gets so zoned in on cam versus sage. Yes. And it shouldn't be. It's like, well, wrong, right, right, wrong, whatever, whatever side you think. But it's like, okay, like, take the people out of it, take the individuals out of it and like, put that in to different scenarios, like run the scenarios in, I don't know, man, that all of a sudden gets really, really tricky where you're like, I don't know, like, cancer treatments, like, you know, you can go through all kinds of things and be like, running is so, so helpful again. And it's like, do we want to take these experiences from people because they needed a treatment? I don't know. You know what I want to see? I want to see a calm headed cam and sage sit down and talk on cams podcast. And like possible. Like attacking is off the table. Nuance conversation of why it, why it bothers sage so much. Why cam, you know, I did see a quote from Cam, he's like, USA isn't on my chest. And so it's like, maybe sage could do the nuanced conversation of, but you fall under this jurisdiction because of the competition. Maybe cam could do the nuance of like, you know what I mean? I'm like, well, this is why I decided to do it. And it would be super powerful because right now the internet is again, just so fucking angry and like raging over this. And it's annoying. Why so annoying to me? It just is. Yeah. I mean, I think we're, we come from one world where it's like super easy to be passionate for anti-doping and like, it's fucked a lot of lives. But I try to open my mind when I think about how big the open field is and that maybe malice isn't like what is driving it. It's just lack of education or like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. So I think that's a great perspective. It's good to hear that. And cause I think coming from where we come from, I'm like, fuck you. You're a doper. You know, you're trying to steal money and fame and podiums. And I can't stand you, you know, but that's, and I'm sure there are people in the masses that are trying to steal their version of the fame. But, but perhaps for a lot of people, that's not the truth. That's not the circumstance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough because it is a lot too. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, that's that's the, what we're going to leave the folks with, I think on that topic is we're going to get Cam and Sage on Cam's podcast. We're not going to. They're going to listen to this. They're going to listen to this. They're going to reach out to each other. We're going to listen to it and say, see, we told you so. It's complex. Okay. I have one more topic for you. Okay. Okay. I'm already laughing because I know what team you're going to be on. So Lagoon had a bunch of athletes being interviewed together. There was a bunch of Minnesota athletes, Dakota and Emma Bates and Courtney DeWalter. And they were talking about Irish goodbyes. And as a Minnesotan, that you cannot Irish goodbye. That is not a thing. And it was funny because Courtney was defending the Irish goodbye and Emma Bates and no, no, no, Courtney was defending the Minnesota goodbye. And Emma Bates and Dakota were defending the Irish goodbye. Like you have to just be able to leave and go home and go to sleep. And then Lagoon asked me what my opinion on it was. And I was like, oh, the Minnesota runs too deep. I can't do it. Even if I want to, I can't. I have to like say goodbye. And it made me think of the Olympics trials in Orlando. We were like having the best time. It was getting late. And then also, I just started car driveway with you in the car. Yeah. Like see you. I was like, this is the queen of the Irish goodbye. So tell me your thoughts on the Irish goodbye. Thanks to Lagoon. I mean, this is like a hilarious topic to me. That's actually really funny. I, it's situational. I clearly have commitment problems in general. I think typically if like a host invited you and was like, please come to my party. I'm having a thing for this thing. Then you have to say goodbye to them and thank them. Right. Any other scenario, I think you can go when you're ready to go. How's that? That's really good. Yeah. It was a host involved. You have to say thank you. You do have to say great happy birthday or like congratulations. You're just out drunk with your podcast co-host. You can sleep when you're ready. I gotta go to sleep. I need some shut up. I got dogs in the car. Okay. So my head's got to go hit the thin chila. I renamed it. I renamed the chinchilla. You should tell them that. That's a good name. Maybe they can make a super, super thin chinchilla that's extra cooling. Then call it the thin chila. Just pitching ideas. You know what? So we both had Adam and I have cooling pillows. His is a fox. Mine's an otter, but you know, your pillowcase, you can feel it, but your pillowcase kind of blocks it. So we just invested in these cooling bamboo sheets. I'm telling you, I'm feeling the pillow more. I'm feeling that cooling more. So that's a little tip for anybody. If you like a cool pillow and you want to invest in a lagoon cooling pillow, get bamboo sheets because it allows the cooling to come in more. Thin chila. Oh my gosh, survive. Yeah. That's exciting. I think, I mean, this is up ahead, but the grandma's podcast is going to be awesome. We have two shows there sold out. The crowd is like, Carre's and Tal, let's freaking go. I think they want to see us both. I think they want to see us both. Okay. Well, hit the show notes. Nobody asked us for 15% off on the goon. Take the test. Find out that you're a thin chila and give us some, the thin chila is some points, the chinchillas, because the otters, I believe. The otters are the best. Get the otter. But also just to remind everybody, if you haven't listened to the pod before, sleep is important. Yes. Like that's not a place to skimp in your life. And these pillows are legit. They're so good. We've been sleeping on them now for over a year, right? And so nobody asked us all caps. You get 15% off as does said, take the quiz. Make sure you get the right pillow for you. But invest in yourself. Don't game the quiz. Do it right. Yeah. Don't pull a dozen game at every time you take it. I get to buy a new pillow. Okay. All right. Should we roll into top five? Yeah, we survived. We survived the episode that was making us sweat when we talked about it. Yeah. And no, I'll start the top five with that. I'm proud of us for having that conversation. I think immediately we go in with our perspective. And then it's like, oh, I'm open to having a conversation. And even that, I feel like I've had this conversation in my head a million times. I'm trying to think through all the scenarios of what do I really think? And I appreciate that we were able to have tricky conversations where you could just stand in your spot and be like, I refuse to be moved. Right. When there's things that maybe you don't see or you haven't considered or your life experiences or you're like, oh, that's completely out of what I was even imagining coming into this conversation. Right. Yeah. I appreciate you for having that discussion. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate you too. Okay. This is a huge pivot. Okay. I'm going to show it out my girl Emma Coburn, who's running her first depot in a year and a half, I think, at the LA or some track, something this weekend sound running. I think it's in LA. Is it in LA? Okay. I'm super excited to see her back out there. She has worked so hard to rehab her hamstring and be back. And so go Emma. I'm very excited for her. Yeah, that's a good one. I'll jump onto that train. I'm just going to say track is back. How about that? Like we're going to get into meets. The Diamond League is going to ramp up. It seems like a year where people are going to just want to go fast. Like no championships at the end unless you're doing the ultimate. World championships. I guess it's a Commonwealth's year as well. But when Worlds is off the table, it's just done a little bit differently. So I think that this Diamond League is going to be really, really exciting. Okay. I think we should come up with a fourth because I have a great fifth one. Okay. I'm going to show it. Okay. What do we have coming up? I feel like majors are done. We got Grammas on deck. We could just shout out Grammas that we sold out two shows there. And thanks you guys so much for caring. Thanks to Des for saying on the show. Maybe we should have a second show. And then we did. And for people for selling out that second show, because that's a big I stuck my neck out. They're like, oh, like five people signed up for it. They're like, no, we did it. Like we sold it out. We sold it out. Yeah. So we're excited about that. And thanks for supporting us. Yes, I love that. Okay. This is like totally out of left field. But I've been meaning to tell you about this. So I got this email on to my info at Kara Goucher on May 1st. Okay. Okay. Should I just read it really quick? Sure. Hi, Kara. So random. But my brother in law is getting married in July. He and his, I almost just said finance. He and his fiance are big fans of you and the pod. Love it. They attended the live podcast in Boston. They love you and Des. I would love to surprise them with something for their wedding day. Is there any chance you'd be able to send a video with Des congratulating them anything? But I just thought we could end this top five with saying, Nicky Navery. Love it. Love it. We are excited for you. Congratulations. And we're pumped for you. And I'll let Des say something. But Nicky Navery, thanks for being there. Way to go. That's exciting. We love love and never go to sleep angry. That's the advice I was given for a marriage. And I think it's very good. Fight it out if you have to fight it out. But you never know what tomorrow brings. So never go to sleep angry. Good luck. I love it. There you go, Nicky Navery. You have your own advice from Des. We love you guys. Thanks for listening to the pod.