Elizabeth Smart

Well, welcome welcome welcome now I'm chair expert experts on expert Happy 1,000th episode I can't believe it I think of it very much like a a which is like you can't stay sober for 30 years But you can stay sober for a day Yeah, and then you can kind of blink and it is 30 years Yeah, it's like if you told us like okay, man, you're gonna you're gonna do a thousand We can't we're not capable yeah, but look at it in one episode at a time we got to a thousand That is very exciting I'm proud of us me too and then what an incredible episode to have for our thousandth Elizabeth smart which you know, I think if you were on planet earth in 2002 you Knew about Elizabeth smart, but even if you were like me. Yeah, and knew someone was abducted, but that's where it ends Yeah, this story is so unbelievable in so many ways and there's an incredible doc out Now on Netflix called kidnapped Elizabeth smart and it's incredibly well made documentary this is such an interesting conversation and and Very meaningful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm sometime hesitant to give trigger warnings for all episodes But boy boy this this one warrants a major major trigger warning. Yes, obviously. There's abduction. There's sexual assault There's a lot a lot a lot of darkness in this story But I think you like us will find Elizabeth smart to be impossibly well adjusted and Has a positive outlook. Yeah, it's it's it's remarkable So so so so grateful to her for telling us her whole story. It's a hard one But it's a great episode and we're thankful to the arm cherries for sticking around for a thousand Love you guys so much and even the ones that came in COVID if you're around for 500 big high If you're around for one, we'll take it. We'll take it. We'll take it. All right, please enjoy Elizabeth smart Hi, we're back right after the intro. This is very special because It's our thousandth episode Yeah, and you wanted to commemorate Really special and it's really rare it is and it'll only happen once Monica This will be the only episode that's one that you use and that's right and I am very proud of us for Just sticking to it for this long But mostly just thankful to the arm cherries because without them we would not be able to still be here Yeah, they've really hung around for a lot of them. They've been on the ride with us and it's so so fun So I want to do something special and do a little very small Merch collection to celebrate the thousandth episode So there is a t-shirt on the site. That's very fun Requires fast math, which is that's right. I made me happy. That's for you That's for Dax and on the back of that shirt It has all of the thousand guests, which is very fun. Yes And then there's a really fun sweatshirt and another sweatshirt too. I'm not gonna give it all away But go check it out a pair of engraved brass knuckles. No, that's not a part. I didn't make it No, that didn't make the switch blade in there. No, that also We're sticking with the classics the clothes So go to armchair expert pod calm and go to the store and it'll be there it'll be there and go ahead and get on the list and You'll get your thousandth episode merch and we're happy to have you and onto the episode We are supported by HubSpot. Did you know that most businesses Monica only use 20% of their data? That's like reading a book with most of the pages torn out. Yeah, or a pain for a coffee. That's one fifth full Yuck Point is you miss a lot unless you use HubSpot their customer platform gives you access to the data You need to grow your business the insights trapped in emails call logs and transcripts all that Unstructured data that makes all the difference because when you know more you grow more and when you get a full cup of coffee You can do more too, but I digress visit hubspot.com today Oh, you want to shake So I set the bar you always do that to me and then I look like a pervert What nicknames did you grow up with? No, Beth or bit we have a friend named bit which I think is so cute I love the girl across the street for me growing up named Betsy and I think her name I could see I mean I've heard people go by Betsy. Yeah, there's a lot Lizzie Sky is the limit My mom was always like you are Elizabeth you will go by And so that's just what I've always been now. I'm lazy if someone has more than two syllables in your name I'm like we got to get down to one Maybe cuz I'm Dax. Yeah, you're just projecting money. I'd prefer just mon Probably you could have done mon mon's very popular Monika Too much. It's a lot too much Elizabeth three Elizabeth Before but Elizabeth is such a pretty name. I understand why not wanting to I like the name of Elizabeth when is the last time you did an interview right before Are you exhausted? No, I'm good. Okay. What was the other one? I was just in in-house at Netflix Oh, sure I watched kidnap last night and I made a really kind of questionable decision. I was like, I'm gonna watch it with my daughters So I want you with my 11 and 12 year old and we all snuggled on the couch and Ultimately, I'm really glad I did it started a lot of conversations That I think are really good to have and they got to see me ball at the end Excessively and they love that the end fucked me up. I'll get to specifically what that was about it but I guess first and foremost I Was aware of all this and yet at the same time not this is 2002 uh-huh so I was 27 I just wasn't dialed into everything that was going on but you and Monica are the exact same age virtually two months apart I was very aware of it. Did this give rise to your a Natural fear of being kidnapped would you credit Elizabeth? So I think I already had it I don't feel like people these days talk about Kidnappings a lot, but it was being talked about back then it was like a fear Do you know anything about the statistics? Is it more or less? Does it change? I Couldn't tell you if it was more or less now, but I know a person goes missing about every 70 seconds Wow, and every nine minutes that person's a child Wow, oh my god Every 70 seconds so that means by the end of this 110 people have gone missing is Let me ask you first Your comfort level with talking about it seems high But I definitely wanted to talk before we got into stuff I would never want to be going in any direction or anything that you wouldn't want to go in but am I right? You seem pretty comfortable. You could ask me whatever you want. Okay, you can also tell us if you're like actually I don't talk about yeah, I've been talking about it a long time. Yeah, you can ask away also, I have learned over the years how impactful stories are we can sit here and chat about statistics actually I'm not that great with numbers Yeah, I forget I'm kind of easy, but I Remember stories if someone's story is really meaningful or impactful I will remember that a lot better than if it's just like a fact and so I guess for me I also saw this as an opportunity to reach out to other survivors other victims to let them know that they're not alone Because again, I didn't feel like I heard people talk about rape or sexual violence or abuse as a kid and I definitely didn't hear anyone saying well That happened to me. I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment around what had happened and Took a long time for me to get over that and then as I started kind of in the advocacy world I mean it was the same story Everywhere I turned so much shame so much embarrassment so much guilt even though they're all victims And so I also just felt like this was an incredible Opportunity to be on a stage that I could never imagine being on yeah a universal one. Yeah, and just be able to Hopefully reach out to other people to let them know they're not alone So personally and I do not want to compare at all apples to oranges because mine's far less severe But I was sexually molested and I talked about it quite openly on here in some other places and I have my own baggage with all the things that come with that and Similarly, I wasn't having a lot of people come up to me and go like me too But I would say over the years that has happened more and more and more and it's a nice feeling I think You're alone and scared and actually maybe this is a hot take but I think one of the saddest things I see is That when someone dies or heaven forbid is murdered That's it. Their life is done But when I see too many survivors of sexual violence, they're alive, but they stop living Yeah, and that loss of life I find Heartbreaking yeah, they have to be present for their own death in a way on earth. Yes. Yeah So let's go before 2001. Let's start in 87. You have what seems at least from the dock to have a pretty ideal childhood 2002 Salt Lake City Okay, yeah, great Mormon family and in a very nice federal Heights is that the new so a very very nice affluent area of Salt Lake City brothers and sisters. I'm second of six You rode horses. Yeah, you played the harp. Yeah, you have a bachelor's degree in playing the harp. Yeah, well, I studied it Actually didn't graduate I actually had two professors Pull me out of class one day and they just said Elizabeth. What are you doing? Why are you here? Really what and they're like you don't need a degree for what you do We'll still be here in five ten fifty years Go do what you're doing Come back when you are ready to be done with it and I was like wait for my teachers I'm pretty sure you're the ones supposed to be encouraging me not to drop out of Yeah It's real good advice ended up following it and I don't have my degree, but I don't regret it So prior to 2002 what kind of sights had you set for your life? I don't want to sound like I didn't care about what happened in my life But I couldn't imagine that my life would be that remarkable or that interesting I mean, I thought it would just kind of be run of the mill like I'd go to school finish high school go to college Eventually get married have kids maybe teach our lessons out of the house and that would pretty much be it So I didn't think anything could ever happen to me So you shared a room with your sister Mary Catherine. So Mary was nine in your 14 Yeah, and you shared a bedroom or an actual bed. We share an actual bed. Oh, yeah So what happens that night as you're sleeping? You know the night started off totally normal I mean it was a little bit Chaotic because my grandpa had just died my mom's dad had just died and it was then to the school year And there's a lot of us right? There's a lot of things going on. Was it a weekday? So I don't know why that matters to me. No, it was a weekday like the next day was a school day It was still like a pretty normal day. There was nothing bad about it. There were no, I don't know feelings of a boating or anything Yeah, no oh yeah, I remember just going to bed and the next thing I remember Was waking up to a man standing above me knife at my neck telling me to get up and get out of bed Don't make a sound go with him. Oh my god. How detailed is your memory of all that? Yeah, it's pretty detailed for all of us This isn't happened to you try to imagine yourself in that situation Which I guarantee your imagination is not gonna do it justice, but first thoughts You're like this is a prank or horror or no just this can't actually be real All right, and I mean I remember as a kid I chose to sleep closest to the door because I was like oh If anything ever happened like it's my responsibility to watch over my little sister. I'm older than her So I'm gonna sleep next to the door never actually thinking anything could happen The movie that scared me most as a kid was the never-ending story. Oh, yeah You hated to trade with a huge dog or I mean honestly, I haven't watched it since then so I couldn't even tell Wow, it's a beautiful story about a little boy on an adventure. I just remember being terrified when I watched as a kid And I remember thinking that was more likely to pop out of my nightmares than to have someone break in that was never even a thought They could break into my home and so I'd imagine there's enormous confusion about what's happening And then you're very quickly on the move out of the house obviously. Yeah at the front door out the window So I was on the top floor of my house. I was probably in like the highest point of my house So we had to obviously come out of my room come down through the big flight of stairs in the middle of my house And then we went out through the back kitchen door. And do you remember on that walk? Hoping someone would hear you guys. Oh, absolutely And then because they didn't I remember them thinking because nobody woke up. Is it because he killed them already? Sure. Yeah, how could you know? Cuz I mean felt like whenever my older brother and I tried to sneak down to see what presents were for Christmas My parents always caught us. So how did they catch us then and then not wake up now? And of course he explicitly said if you scream I'm gonna kill you if you don't I'm not gonna hurt you Yeah So I love how the dock is structured it's a very very compelling story because We really are gonna talk with your sister for the most part of the beginning of this story Which is apropos. She's the only person who has any idea what has happened So she heard this go on or was she sleeping through it? Also? Did he have a mask on? Sorry, I have so many detailed questions about this. She heard it But she didn't open her eyes like why because she didn't want him to know she was Trying to pretend you're invisible. Yeah. Yeah, but she said she was like kind of looking through her eyelashes To try to see him so I mean she gave the police a description of him But when I later read the description of him and then obviously knowing what he looks like I was like Like if you're a nine year old girl, and it's dark in the room looking through your eyelashes Yeah, would you know? I don't think you're it's possible to Register in nine years old. I mean that is so so tiny to be giving a detailed account of what happened Yeah, but the police Obviously questioned her and the first really compelling thing is that she recognized the voice She said she knew the voice she couldn't place it immediately Yeah, but she knew the voice like she recognized the voice once you were out of the house I guess she ran into your parents room. So we have an alarm system or we had none of us live in that house anymore But we had an alarm system in the house And so she was waiting to hear the alarm system go off Yeah To know whether or not it was safe for her to get up and go wake my parents But as luck would have it for whatever reason I feel like someone explained to me once and I could be totally wrong But when alarm system goes off It's because there's a magnet set in the frame and a magnet set in the door and when they disconnect that alerts the system Yeah, breaks the circuit sounds like you know what you're talking about. I don't yeah I think the magnets had fallen out of the door frame. What? And none of us knew about it and so when the back door opened it never went off So my sister was lying in bed and she never heard it go off And so she waited and waited and waited I think she probably waited about 45 minutes before she went and told my parents, but like that would have been Terrifying for her and would have taken a lot of courage for her because for all she knew we were still in the house Yes, and if she gets up now, she's next or he could kill you. I mean, there's just a million bad options. Yeah Yeah, it's unimaginable. What is painful to watch? But of course absolutely required and you again, you would know you work in this space Sadly, most of these cases are family related. I mean like a pretty high percentage. Yeah, really high percentage Obviously the police have to begin trying to clear your family and there's a lot of you Yeah, there is also there's press So what is it like for you because of course you were not present for anything this but when you have since seen Everything they went through for the next few days After your disappearance, what are your thoughts? I mean, it depends when you ask me like when I first was rescued And I saw glimpses of it initially. I was just like you guys didn't have it that bad You're all there together. You're not alone with like these monsters The bad things aren't happening to you. You're on the good end now as a parent myself I'd gladly go through it again to make sure it didn't happen to my kids Yeah, and so now as a parent, I don't know whose was worse, but I know I would do whatever it took to protect my children Yeah, well as a fellow dad watching your father and Speak about your primary job is to protect your kids and your little girls in the amount of shame and guilt and Self-flagellation I'm sure about failing at that job was rough But additionally Uncle Tom's a character. She is an uncle. Is he the oldest? Yes He feels like he's Got wildly in these interviews I felt blessed by the fact that I hadn't followed all the twists and turns So really if I wasn't interviewing you and my children kept asking is she alive and I'm like she has to be I'm interviewing But beyond that I don't know so stop asking me questions. I don't know I think a lot of people forget I entered the doc not knowing if it was a family member I'm along for the ride the way America was and I got to be honest I'm watching these interviews and I'm watching Uncle Tom and Uncle Tom goes on this kind of weird path about how everyone is Flawed and everyone has secrets and I'm like what the fuck is this guy talking about? To be honest about the reality the complexity of life what so we're watching that and my kids are like Oh my god, I know it seems crazy and then of course it takes America by storm And so you have all these different pundits now evaluating every sentence that's said First of all my uncle is one of the best people you could actually meet Yeah, that comes out in the wash by the end of the night. You're like I fucking love Uncle Tom I mean all my uncles are the best people and I Believe it was after that interview because sleep deprivation was at an all-time high that family members had to enact certain Rules before family members went before the media. Yeah, they didn't You need like media training, but you're going through this crazy fear and loss I mean it was the most intense worst thing my family had ever experienced He says later in this doc He had been awake for about five and a half days at the point because he also took a polygraph That was inconclusive whatever that means We had Amanda knocks on and similar you end up doing things and saying things because you're just being put through the ringer Yeah, you've been interrogated for 36 hours and then you're expected to give a cohesive normal. Yeah Yeah, so we're watching that and then my kids are like he did it, right? I'm like well, he's in the doc so no I would have presumed me be in print like the weird Detectable we were trying to do but then you're also seeing all of these things that really end up frustrating me when I see Investigations and look these are people are not sent down from heaven. They're human beings doing the best they can they're scared Everyone's scared. They're being relied on to have the answers and they don't have the answers But some of these immediate things that are coming out are very frustrating Which is the attacker put a chair against the wall and then cut a screen and then climb through a window That's how we got in mm-hmm and the detectives look at this and say there'd be a scuff on the wall Yeah, this is kind of like I know this would happen those things are very frustrating Yes, and I suppose that is how they work right you just trying to knock down things that don't make sense But at the same time is like what are we talking about and then people saying your father at on TV in the interviews Didn't have real tears when he was crying like this micro Examination of what someone's supposed to be doing I can guarantee I don't have to be there to know he would have been crying He cries every time he gets emotional You daughters do that to us Even if he didn't the fact that that then means is a problem We all have these ideas based on movies Yeah, how you're supposed to react in trauma and it's like everyone acts differently in trauma and you can't just make an assumption It's really bad. Yeah, here's my great curiosity now that I know the end So the whole town activates it gets an enormous amount of coverage and really everyone shows up to try to find you There is a point where they bring up the basset hound dog And it gets the scent of you and it leads them for a very long time in your neighborhood, but then it stops Do you have an explanation for that? I always wondered that too. I always thought they'll bring dogs Because I never got into a car and they said the scent stopped at the street But right across the street. It's like a pretty popular trailhead go up it. Yeah And they just said it just stopped which I don't understand and so they conclude Oh They went to here got in a car now the car drove away and that's why the sense well And then I remember I mean it rained Not like a huge downpour, but it rained the second or third day that I was kidnapped I remember thinking oh, maybe that washed the scent way, but then I assume this is correct But I'm not an expert. I asked a dog handler years later Well, it rained did it wash the scent way and they're like no that actually enhances the scent like reactivates it Yeah, yeah, and I was like, okay. Well, I never got in a car. Well once we find out in this dock where you are It's absolutely maddening. That's a heartbreaking bit of information. You were not that far. I wasn't but I Hiked back up there just this past October and it is not easy to get to like I've run marathons That's harder. Wow really when you were on that walk Were you even aware of how hard it was or you're probably just such in a state of shock? I have like so much adrenaline just pumping through me. I had no idea just how far back we were I thought I was a lot closer to the city than I actually was which I mean again when you think oh Three and a half miles three and three-fourths of a mile. That's not that far but straight back into the mountains That's a decent distance. Yeah, that's like 20 miles on flat ground. Maybe feels about like it You walked the whole time in silence Pretty much. I remember asking him a few times. Why are you doing this? Where are you taking me? Why are you taking I remember asking him questions, but he'd always kind of shut me down He'd say something like oh, I'm taking you hostage or all will be revealed in due course. Oh was he already in Biblical speech or was that say he was in and out will you tell Monica this horrendous thing you had to ask him and why? Well, I asked him if he was gonna rape and kill me. You're like, what is this about? Yeah, we didn't have enemies Never started a few to hurt anyone, but you didn't recognize him not immediately But I did recognize him once we started getting up further into the mountains And I was like why are you doing this? My parents tried to help you But you had asked if he was gonna rape and kill you because this is so heartbreaking But also so pragmatic of you even at 14 You wanted it to happen close to the house if he was gonna do it so your parents could find you Not that different from here. There are mountain lions. There are coyotes and 14 year old has a pretty active Imagination I was like, oh my gosh if we get far up here these coyotes are Mountain lions are gonna tear apart my body and then I'll just vanish and no one will ever find me Which it could have happened just this last time I hiked up there I saw some entrails on the way up and that was it Animal yeah But still the fact that you have to think like that is terribly adults kind of a thought And the first few days of this is 40,000 leads are phoned in so what they're trying to sift through and Ultimately the family is cleared. How do we get to a reesee? How did he come to be a suspect? my parents had Built the house that we were living in and they really project managed the whole thing and my dad was in there Laying tile with everyone else and painting walls and doing all the things Well, let it work was your dad in he was a mortgage broker so he would Contract out with people or he went to I can't even remember exactly what it's called But basically the Mormon church services where they try to connect people in need with work And they had recommended this Richard reesee to my dad and because it came from the church my dad was like Oh, he's good. He must be fine. So he brought him to our house had him working on and around the house and Neither my parents knew that actually he was a convicted felon and he had a whole history So when the police were asking for a list of everyone who had been to our house before His name was on the list and then of course they like oh well He's a felon. He had killed a cop in a armed robbery gun. Yeah wrong. So obviously for them They're pretty excited at that revelation. How could they not be? Yeah, they're like it's him and they bring him in and he's a wild Dude, there's a lot of footage in the dock of them interviewing him again. He's also presenting as someone guilty He's very combative. He will not explain your father gave him a car, right a Cherokee Yeah, so it was in exchange for some work instead of money He would rather have the car and so that was the deal But then I'm not exactly sure on the details But I don't know if he had completed all the work or there was something it didn't end well Yeah, but they were like he was supposed to follow through and it was like a weirdness I mean he ended up stealing some of my mom's jewelry as well That's another thing they go to his house to arrest them and when they get a warrant to go through everything they find Stuff he's stolen. Oh my god. Yeah, if you're them. This is looking more and more promising Yeah, it feels like a bullseye and then even crazier somehow they deduce this and I don't know how but he had put a few hundred miles on That car that was given to him the night of This abduction. Yeah, and we never found out what it was for refused to tell But everyone thought it was like he drove up to the West Desert and buried me out there, right? That's kind of a natural conclusion and if you're the police you're like, oh my god now We have a radius of a hundred and fifty miles. Good luck. Yeah And he won't tell them Anything and he's really really combative and they decide let's offer him an immunity deal Which is as so long as it has nothing to do with a murder or some other very serious thing You can tell us where you drove and we won't care about the crime, right? And so as that's being pitched and they're evaluating whether or not to take that opportunity He dies in his jail cell my other grandpa my dad's dad He was a doctor and at the time he said Elizabeth hit him over the head and he had a brain aneurysm and that's why he died Oh He did he had an aneurysm he just like healed what yeah in the doctor like stroke or an urine I don't know if it was ever decided, but you're still missing This is like a string of impossibly bad luck things to happen that nobody woke up that the magnets on the door Fell off that this guy just dies out of nowhere. What? That's so crazy. No, right. How is this even my life, right? 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He doesn't cut corners If you're not gonna trust me trust a show that's right visit Turbo tax comm to get matched with a turbo tax full service expert today. That's turbo tax comm only available with turbo tax full service experts Real-time updates only on iOS mobile app How long had you been gone when Risi died get the four or five month mark For four or five months and so obviously National attention's dying down the police departments running out of people to talk to they have this guy They thought it was it he's dead. I don't want to say they said it was over but kind of it was over for them But that leaves your parents with where is she if that's what happened? I mean just the agony of that being the conclusion. Yeah, I mean everyone was like the secret of what happened to Elizabeth has gone With Richard Risi to his grave. We will never find her. We will never know what happened. We can only assume she's dead okay now Tell Monica this crazy thing that happens to Mary Catherine Waiting for dad to come tuck her into bed. My sister. She's just randomly looking at the Guinness Book of World Records And she said she turned to this page of this extremely muscular woman No, this day. She's like I have no idea. The mind is weird. Isn't it? That's what jogged no idea But as she's looking at this page This must be a woman in the world The name comes to her. No, my dad comes in to tuck her in and she's like dad I think I know who kidnapped Elizabeth. I think it was that guy Emanuel who came to our house and did some work for you that one time Who you guys had originally seen downtown, right? Yeah, I'd only seen him once I was out school clothes shopping with my mom at the beginning of the year And I mean you only saw me like one time and just that one time he's like yep She's the one I'm gonna kidnap her and he was a homeless guy who was preaching his own version of the scripture at that point in time he didn't preach to my mom his Spent a lot of time talking about his twisted past but he basically found that the best way to manipulate people and get what he wanted was through religion or if he needed to justify something just blame it on religion and so he had done that for years He'd done it to his family When he married my other captor that was I think his third wife Then he and his third wife they just fed off of each other But they had both used that tactic for years and years However, I think if you look at that time period, you know, he saw me in like September October maybe of 2001 right around 9-11 I think any form of Extremism people just pulled away from found upon made people very cautious. So he had Stopped wearing the robes he usually wore and he had stopped kind of pushing that facade as much So when my mom saw him, I mean he was clean shaven. He had clean clothes on He just kind of looked like a guy who had hit hard times Not necessarily like your average homeless person Yeah, and he didn't even ask my mom for money straight out of the gate He asked her for work when you were out clothes shopping Yeah, and so my mom was like, well, I don't have any work But you can call my husband and he only asked for work because he saw me and wanted to find out where we lived And so from the time he saw me Back in September October all the way up until June was when he kidnapped me. He planned it Okay, so Mary Catherine knows it's a manual and then we bring in a sketch artist and they do a sketch they want the police to release this sketch and They do not want to release it. I can't remember the reason they I mean, they just thought it was Richard Reese They just didn't think that it was this other guy who came to our house one time And they said if you put this out in public then if that person does have Elizabeth now you're in danger, right, right? This is the rationale. I remember but thank God your family grew so Frustrated and hopeless I imagine John Walsh from America's most wanted had become a huge support to my parents So my dad had gotten pretty close with him and my dad had told John Mary Catherine thinks she knows who took Elizabeth and we've gone down to the police station And we've had like a sketch artist come in and sketch this guy She thinks that's who it is and John was like well you gotta release it and they're like but the police don't want us to and so actually John Went on Larry King live back in the day and he actually released the sketch on Larry King Wow Good for him. Yeah as it turns out great for him because pretty quickly The brother-in-law of a manual in quotes taxidious did I did quotes if you're listening not watching Emanuel in quotes is brother-in-law Calls and says I think I know who a manual is he knew that was the name that Brian Mitchell was going by so now we know who it is But now where are they okay, so now let's go back to Walking as you just said there's a second person involved because by the name of Hepsaba What happens when you get to the end of this three and a half mile hiking trail he had said while he was taking me up into the mountains that We were going to his wife and initially when I heard that there was gonna be a woman there I was like it's gonna be fine. I tell my kids find a woman if you're a lot I know yeah, right women can be crazy, too. Now you should tell them find a woman with kids. Yeah We go step one find the police officer a woman's kids and then next message. Yeah, yeah, it's a list Yeah, and so like initially I was believed because I was like nothing that can happen plus I mean I could tell that he was older I feel like your brain Goes in so many different ways to try to protect you try to make you think okay or at least mine does The situation is not as dire as it seems like it's gonna be okay. There's a woman there Maybe they're just kidnapping you because they want a daughter really that's what I was honestly just thinking I was like is that why maybe their daughter died right something and like they're just heartbroken Well, you're grasping for any ray of hope exactly so we get back up into the mountains to like this hidden mountain camp and Sure enough. There's this woman. I feel relief at seeing her she comes up to me She hugs me but at the same time the hug was I don't know. There's such thing as an yes There's such thing as an aggressive hug or a possessive hug. Yeah, how like domination kind of thing Yeah, I'm claiming you and she's also dressed in by my sorry. Yeah. No, you're right a crazy outfit She looks like she is like these long sort of tunic like robes on all white Just different. Yeah, so she hugs you she hugs me. She leads me inside of the tent She sits me down on an upturned bucket and I need to add it is a camping tent. Yeah, no illusions of grandeur This is not three person ten. It's probably like a six person. You're right. Let's be fair. It's a six person Okay, yeah, that's where they're living inside the tent. There's just bedding on the ground and There's this one upturned bucket. That's what she has me sit on She brings on like this little small blue basin has water in it. She like takes off my shoes Starts washing my feet goes to reach to unbutton my pajamas And I was like What I mean, I was shy. Yeah, I'm a late bloomer in lots of things So I hadn't really hit puberty yet And I don't know anyone who goes through puberty gracefully anyway, not me No, it's not easy. I was I could not of course help but imagine my own 12 year old situation and I'm just devastating. It's fucking devastating. Yeah, so, you know, she's like trying to undress me I just remember like grabbing hold of my pajamas You want to be as naked in front of anybody much of strangers. No, who knows what's gonna happen when these clothes come off This very scary. Yeah, so did she let you keep them on? No No, she's like if you don't let me take them off you I will have a manual come in here and he will rip them off of you And I remember just being like a shower last night before I went to bed. I'm not dirty If you want me to change I'll change myself. You don't need to touch me So she finally hands me a robe like the one she has on I remember pulling on and then taking my clothes off underneath the Robe and she scoops them up and she walks out of the tent and you're just sitting there. I'm just sitting there Yep, I could hear them right outside the door So the woman walks out. I Honestly, I don't know how much time passed could have been 30 seconds Could have been 10 minutes, but not too much time passes and the man comes in the tent and he's changed out of like the dark sweat pants and sweatshirt and Stalking hat that he wore to kidnap me in and he has on these long robes like the woman and He comes in and he nails down next to me And he starts speaking to me and at first I'm really not paying attention to what he has to say And then I have a thought that maybe I should because maybe there'd be some reason why he was kidnapping me or What was gonna happen next as a religious person? Did you think at any point? Oh, these are satanic Some kind of devil worshiping people at that point. I did not realize he had already mentioned God but because I grew up in such a religious Environment that didn't just automatically make me think oh Crazy person But then as I listen to what he says and he's like I see you to me as my wife before God and his angels as my witnesses They're getting married. Oh my god And isn't at that moment he tells you you are one of seven I will be he doesn't tell me right at that moment But I mean he does tell me later how I'm the first of seven wives so he had this whole set of Books that he viewed as scripture and he called them the seven diamonds plus one Because the seven books it was like the Old Testament the New Testament. They were I don't know how They were published books and then his plus one was the book he wrote of like revelations His book because he's a prophet. He's not just a prophet. He's the Davidic King. I know Like half of these things I'd never even heard of before That was like the same thing how he viewed me and the future six other girls He was gonna kidnap so we were gonna be the seven wives plus the one and the one was Wanda Barzy Hepsibaw and she was like the queen that would reign over us all She was the mother of Zion. That's what she claimed Boy, you think about all the psychology that goes behind a master manipulator Like that and how offering her that high status role somehow made all the other This dude's obviously wants to be with a ton of women But I've anointed you this is the salve I'm gonna put on that is give you super high status and hope you're good with that She had a prior marriage as well. She had six kids from her prior marriage That makes it even darker to think as someone who's had children A little bit torn because on one hand I don't want to be like you're not totally at fault because you are but at the same time I don't think she knew what a healthy relationship was and She probably had quite a few struggles herself in life You must be in a very complicated situation when it comes to her in particular because she is your Predator your oppressor and you're smart enough to know she too is caught in some web of oppression herself probably yeah or no There is definitely a cycle and I think she probably was so desperate for love She wanted to feel special she wanted to feel like she was important because I think she probably had never felt that in her life And so he is there telling her no you are my queen And you've experienced all of these hardships because God was testing you and he has found you worthy You are gonna be the mother of Zion and even though you've had a hysterectomy and you're 58 One day you will bear me a son who will be the future Davidic King. I mean You know yeah part of me is like you were a mother or maybe You just gave birth six times Maybe you don't understand what it is to be a mother because a mother would never harm a child Yeah, and it's mind-blowing to me that even another woman because we've all been through puberty You know we've all been through that awkward kind of miserable time in life. Why would you exploit a young girl? Probably at her most vulnerable. Why would you sit aside and encourage her to be raped? Yeah, and watch it In what kind of bizarre psychology? To watch someone you're married to rape somebody Yeah, she must have really been so sick and manipulated that she had to Probably believe because if she didn't yeah exactly you can't live and she's triple monster or Conversely, maybe she's an equal monster. I don't know. That's what I'm kind of asking like are you even able to evaluate that? That's why I go back and forth is because sometimes I'm like was she in such a bad place herself from her whole life's past experience that she just was so desperate for love for the feelings of Wanting to be special that she allowed this to happen It was just easier to believe and go along with than to stand up and be like No, you're sick. That's wrong. And did she ever Crack and show signs of jealousy there must be yes, so she was probably cruel to you at times She never stood up for me and protected me, but I Not only was supposed to be his wife, but I was supposed to be her Handmaiden so I was was like wait on her and so I felt that it was better for me to Support her claims because then sometimes her jealousy It would be so much that he would come out with a new revelation to try to placate her So he'd come out and he'd say oh God has said that your glory is like that of the Sun and so I can only be with you when the Sun is out and me That I was just more like the moon and so he could only have me at night I never wanted to be raped, but then if I supported her in that at least I'd know I'd have a reprieve for 12 hours eight hours however long the Sun was out I would imagine if I were you and I could be wrong that I'm in survival mode and I would recognize that if I could Convince her I'm loyal to you That that would help me later Yes, and probably playing this bizarre game where you're trying to make both people feel like you're loyal to them and so they would have massive fights like screaming at each other which my parents disagreed but I never saw them scream at each other and so Watching them just be straight up nasty to each other and scream at each other I was like oh my goodness and would you be ever hoping like oh good? I hope they break apart that'll help dissolve all this if she goes somewhere She maybe will tell someone that thought crossed my mind But it became pretty quickly apparent that she wasn't gonna betray him And I mean one time she did actually leave the hidden campsite And I was just left alone with Emanuel Brian Mitchell all day She went down into Salt Lake because she was really mad at him because I mean food was always scarce water was scarce And so she and I would be up in the mountains Starving and he'd go down to Salt Lake steal food while Elizabeth was in the camp He got arrested in Salt Lake for stealing beer. Yeah, he actually got arrested a couple times Oh, he did a couple times. Yeah, he got arrested in Salt Lake He got arrested in Lakeside where he was held in jail for almost a week. I thought I was gonna die of starvation Okay, now this wasn't in the dock, but just occurred to me. This is insanely boring too No, I mean you guys are sitting in a fucking pan for months. Do you remember the tedium of that? Yes Was there a TV in there not for I'm just more just to see the news You see yourself there's no electricity. There's no water. There's nothing they had their scriptures They would pray when they'd pray it would be like an hour So long my family prayed growing up, but it was like 90 seconds. Yeah two minutes at a stretch reasonable Right hours day and be like wake up and they like Actually, he'd probably rape me and then he'd pray for like 45 minutes an hour And then he'd want to read sometimes Whatever scripture he chose, but most time it'd be like what he wrote which that would take I don't know An hour and a half two hours if there was food then I'd be allowed to eat something I mean, I'd be given what I could eat. I just couldn't take whatever and then they'd mostly just talk All day. They're both crazy. I mean, it's too crazy individuals. Yeah, I mean like I don't know It was worse sometimes just listening to them talk or actually being raped. Yeah, you said that Not to be salacious, but I think it's relevant. It's that first night he rapes you It's unimaginable. Obviously you're in so much pain. You're bleeding and then the next day multiple times Yeah, and then that just continues for months. Yeah, I mean forced me to grow naked He was like, oh, we need to be like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden And so we're gonna go naked all day and then a wife needs to know how to make love to her husband So we're gonna demonstrate you need to watch and then it'll be your turn And if you don't watch you won't get any food. You won't get any water You won't get your clothes back won't be able to go to sleep tonight. Nothing is gonna happen until you do this Now the other Mind-blowing part of this is you were also going into town not right away, but yeah How far into captivity before you guys all go into town? Probably about three months in so he takes them to town in there in the white outfits and both of them have their faces Completely covered other than the eyes. They added like a shear veil for the eyes as well He took you guys to kind of illegal nightclub. I mean it was just a house party Yeah, I guess the way that the guy who hosted the thing described it was in 2002 in Salt Lake You have a very obvious Mormon culture and then you have a pretty thriving counterculture And there would be these kind of off-grid After-hours parties where people did drugs and did whatever so he comes to a place like this and the man offered you a Beer or all three of you a drink and a manual said the ladies are not allowed to drink what I can drink and Then the man said to Elizabeth this guy seems kind of controlling and then Hezbollah has Hepsibah Hepsibah says you can't talk to her think how close this is to be I bet that guy When everything came out he probably I'm sure was like oh my god He's in the dock saying he feels terrible that he didn't like push harder But the one that is absolutely you hear these stories about I don't know if it was Dahmer or one of these serial killers were One of his victims got away and that cop brought him back to the house Yeah, so tell us about going to the Salt Lake library Winter is coming on and there's just no way we could have survived like a northern Utah winter There's no way we could have gotten enough food or a tent we would not have survived Yeah, and so they're like we need to find somewhere to go We need to find somewhere for this winter so as decided we'd go to Southern California And they're like okay. We need to find maps of the area. We need to figure where to go in Southern California So we went to the public library They had maps spread out on the table. They decided we'd head to San Diego. They were like looking at the maps of San Diego There was a place called lakeside, which is like oh lakeside that sounds kind of remote-ish There must be a big lake so there's probably a place to hide somewhere around there Which is actually kind of funny because it's a man-made lake Surrounded not by rural areas. Yeah It is a sign that's where we go I said they're looking at the map and all of a sudden this guy starts walking towards us and he gets closer and all of a He flashes his badge and he says I'm a homicide detective We've gotten a call and I just need to talk to you because there's a girl who we're trying to find We just need to verify that she is not that girl. Oh Wow really quick before you tell the outcome. Do you remember what was happening in your body as that was happening? It's shock adrenaline fear Wanda Barzy her hands clamped down on my thigh and I was just paralyzed. Yeah, it was like being kidnapped all over again, it was like reliving every bad thing that had happened to me and It just made me feel like it reminded me of How invincible my captors felt to me and that they had the control Yeah, and not me and they'd gotten away with so much already Who was this police officer that he thought he could protect me when no one had found me? Oh, wow So, I mean I just was frozen where everyone has kind of heard of fight-or-flight or freeze and I froze. Yeah I mean, it wasn't even like a conscious Freeze we'll get to that But Emmanuel he explains to the cop that their religion forbids her to show her face that the only people that are ever allowed to See her face or her father and her future husband Okay, and the police officer said fine. I mean he pushed He was like well can I could just convert to your religion for a day? Oh, like if you just let me see her face Anyone else who calls I can assure them that she is who you say she is I mean he did push he did try wow Now that's the guy who I imagine has the most amount of go way beyond But I mean I saw him during the trial devastated. Yeah So much but I think that also just goes to show what a master manipulator There is some Sven Gali quality He clearly had that he could not panic in the face of this situation He was in and then stick to it and get out of it I mean it was also really interesting during the trial the prosecuting team like found So much stuff about it and it was interesting because the defense team even brought up a lot of stuff that the prosecution was like We were thinking about bringing that up and they were like we don't need to but this is just like another nail in the coffin Yeah, why not and one of the things they brought up was a letter That Brian Mitchell had written I think it was to his mom or someone but talking about what a good actor He was and how much he enjoyed acting and tricking people and convincing others of Whatever he felt like. Oh my god. Can you believe that so? They take a greyhound or you take a bus you had a lakeside. Mm-hmm. You're there and now I Think this is a very savvy moment for you What it tells me is is frozen as you were at many times that were terrifying you also hadn't surrendered you had hope Because there's moments in the dock where I wonder do we ever get Stockholm syndrome me? Is there anything happening? I really can't fathom what happens mentally. Do you know that Stockholm syndrome? I am well aware But no, I'm not sure that I even really believe in Stockholm syndrome Yeah, I feel like it's actually as we just mentioned fight-flight-freeze But I think there's another response which is appease which is basically Which I don't even like the word fun because that makes it sound like you're flirty. Oh It makes it sound like you're fawning over someone like you're flirting like you're looking for attention That's true. It does kind of you're just satiating someone's ego is what's happening But basically it's just doing whatever you have to do to survive So if that means going along with them, then that's what you do. Yeah, but you do get this pretty clever idea Because you know the further away from Salt Lake City you are the less your chances of getting found are how do you plant this seed? I'd watch them do it for nine months how they get away with whatever they wanted by claiming God commanded them or saying it was part of their religion and I think you'd find with most rapists. It's not so much the uncontrollable need for sex It's the power and control over another person they want more than anything And that's what they wanted was power and control So I remember just thinking well if they can do this and get away with it. Why can't I I can only try What's the worst thing that can happen? I guess they could kill me at least I wouldn't be with them, right? And so I thought I'm just gonna give it a try and so I went to him and I was just like oh I just have this feeling. I know it sounds so crazy. God would never speak to me. I am so Sinful I am just so filthy. He had forced me to Drink so many beers one night not that far away from this day that I'm talking to him where I'd ended up throwing up Cuz I was a 15 year old girl at this point and he just left me there And so like I woke up the next morning my face was all crusted to the ground and throw up and it was all in my hair So I mean I'm gonna be like, you know, I'm just nothing that showed my true spiritual state I'm just facedown in my own vomit But I keep having this feeling like we should go back to Salt Lake But no God would never speak to me. So do you think you could ask him cuz I know he would tell you Wow You are his prophet and I know he would tell you so could you please ask him? And I think for him in that moment not that he didn't already do everything he wanted to to me But I think he felt that was like Him getting full control. He got you not only had control of my body, but my mind too in that moment You are now a believer. Yeah, and so that's when he was like, oh, I think you're right I think we should go back to Salt Lake the sketches out They know who they're looking for but you know, where are they gonna find this guy? Do you think he had been following the case at all? I wouldn't say he was following it per se But sometimes when he'd go down into Salt Lake he'd bring newspaper articles back about the search or he'd talk about how every Tree in Salt Lake had like a light blue ribbon tied around it And how every window in Salt Lake had a picture of my face in it How did that make you feel when you knew everyone was thinking about you? It's one thing to say that But see it or I guess experience it I mean I only experienced after I got home and in like the days and weeks after I got home the post office Couldn't put mail in our mailbox They brought it up to the house by the box full and I remember at one point There were so many flowers in our house that even the countertops in the bathrooms had vases of flowers on them I Could never imagine. I mean even now we all know like the number Oh, there's seven billion people in the world or however many I mean It's one thing to say that number but then to actually even begin to realize just how many people that actually is to put faces to put Bodies to that number. Yeah is overwhelming and I don't have seven billion people sending me stuff But however many people it was the whole country was yeah was Overwhelming did it by you a little hope to know that everyone was paying attention Yeah, it was comforting to think that there are people looking for me because who was I? Why would people look for me outside of my family? My vision of it would be my parents calling the police my family and the police looking for me Maybe one new story and that's it in my mind's eye It was like my mom driving her car through neighborhoods looking for me now Probably my most hated part of the whole story is something I've also experienced which is after the first rape you know virginity is cherished What were your thoughts after that I thought I was ruined To the point where you didn't even know if your family would want you back. Yeah if I managed to survive this if I ever made it back to Civilization would I just become a pariah? Oh my god, like how could anyone have anything to do with me? Once they knew the truth. Did you have any fantasies of like if I'm returned? I'm just gonna pretend this part didn't happen. I wanted to but then also what would happen if I ever got married and on my wedding night My husband's like So you felt like there's no escaping this now as an adult and someone who's been in this field now for a long time Unfortunately when you do hear about a kidnapping you just automatically assume they've been raped and at the time I was like, oh no one's gonna know Of course, but that was probably naive of me to think that Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare Okay, so you return to Salt Lake and pretty quickly Upon arriving someone spots the three of you in these crazy outfits and calls the police I mean actually at that point we weren't even in the road Oh, you weren't because we hitched hike back from California and my captors were like no one will pick us up Hitchhiking if we're in the road fuck no looks like children in the corner We need to look a little more normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay, so then you hitchhiked back It was right after you guys got there Yeah, it was the first day we were back in Utah and you're on foot and a police officer Was multiple this is the part I could imagine it just felt like getting Suffocated this moment that I would think in a movie you're gonna run towards the cops But there's no way that's what's gonna happen. I mean it was like the library all over again. Yeah, exactly You have to assume that he's gonna get out of it. You're gonna be with him and if you do something wrong He's gonna punish you that has to be yours or he could kill me or he could go after my family And I mean I had a captor on either side of me like physically Touching me. It's not like I was just hanging out by myself on the side. Yeah So like again that threat was very much in the forefront of my mind And I absolutely knew what my captors were capable of but I didn't know what police officers were capable of Well, yeah, so far they haven't been able to do anything exactly in my mind in that moment. It seemed safest to Turn to my normal survival instinct Which was to do what they said. How did it unfold? Yeah, my captors had the whole backstory Prepared that they told me to say if we were ever questioned The police officer showed up. I don't honestly remember how many there were but it felt like a lot Were there questioning my captors and then they started to question me. They were aggressive They weren't kind and polite or comforting in any way. So that was intimidating. That was scary felt like I was receiving scary from both ends And my captors they were Admit about who we were and police officers tried asking me questions I gave the answers I'd been told to give. They were much more aggressive this time than any other interaction would ever had with police And finally one of the officers was like we need to separate her and talk to her alone. Yes. This is a good Instinct. Yeah, but they weren't like well. No, it's against our religion We weren't in the robes or anything and so they actually didn't say that Maybe they knew at that point like the jig is up. Yeah, I don't know So they took you aside. No that far. I mean I was still in view It was like just a few yards away from my captors and again this officer was very aggressive towards me in his questioning And I just remember feeling scared Yeah, yeah, there was like no like you're in trouble. Yeah, exactly. There was no Softness or comfort in any of this situation Yeah, he kept on questioning me started saying, you know, there's a girl she's been gone now for a long time Her family's never given up hope. Don't you want to go home? I mean, of course I wanted to go home. Of course, I wanted to be back with my family But everything that had happened was so extreme. How did he phrase it? He's in the dock the officer who Ultimately got it out of you. He said something. I need to ask you Yeah, he is like, are you Elizabeth smart and you were kind of Frozen again because on one hand my captors once we were in the camp. They didn't speak with you yours It was always like the thy thine. Oh, it was all the thou's So I didn't know How much my captors could hear from where I was at So I felt like I couldn't just say yes, I'm Elizabeth smart because also they had given me a whole different name While I was with them. I was told you're not allowed to speak about your past. Your name's not Elizabeth They had tried to strip me of my identity everything and so when the police officer said, you know, are you Elizabeth smart? I just felt like I had to speak the way that I'd been Told to speak hoping that maybe my captor hadn't heard the question so that if Some way he had been released which had been the norm I wouldn't be in trouble and so I responded with thou sayest Think of you the police. I know I know I know What does that mean 14 year old girl if she's Elizabeth smart and she says thou sayest I know so that means yes, they put you in the car. They handcuffed me Jesus. Yeah. Okay guys. Do you remember a point where you actually felt like Oh my god, it's over. When did that moment happen? I mean, honestly, it wasn't until my dad was there. They had handcuffed me. They brought me to the police station I'm like if you thought I was innocent like you would have taken me home Isn't it my right to have a phone call like I remember being a kid going into my parents room at night And they'd be sitting there watching Perry Mason. I was like, I swear I get a phone call. I saw that I didn't get a phone call. They didn't take me home. How far is sandy utah from your family home? 20 30 minutes. Okay. You didn't have to wait in eternity for dad. No, okay. No, so they called your parents monica There's footage of him coming into the room. She's being held in and hugging her for the first time Oh my god, I mean it wasn't until then that I was like it's gonna be okay Like I still honestly didn't even know if I was in trouble or not, but I was like my dad's here He's not gonna let anyone hurt me. Yeah, like these two people have hurt me. I guess gonna be okay Kind of insult the injury it takes eight years for this trial to happen Everything's so broken. It's like very Broken and disappointing. We don't have a justice system. We have a legal system Yeah, so then what's happening in that eight year? Are they in jail? They are in jail. Well, I mean they're in the state hospital for some of it They're in jail for some of it the statute of limitations comes up in utah It has to be moved to the federal courts because otherwise he's gonna walk free What? Yeah, I'm gonna fast forward to he's in prison for life Well, I like that and she got 15 years. She's out But what is not in the doc and I got left with so many questions is When do we dare return to school and what on earth is that like? I mean this recovery process has got to be So challenging. I was rescued in March. I remember my parents asking like what do you want to do? I was like, I want to see my friends. I want to go back to school. I had a lot of FOMO Parents were like, you can't go back to school yet. So I went back to school in the fall Were they also like you're not leaving our side ever again? Yeah, I would never I'd be like, I'm going with you for the rest of your life Everywhere my mom Basically said that were you offered immediately therapy. I was offered everything but I did not know what therapy was. I'd say I had like a Pretty negative connotation attached to it. Yeah, that's what New York liberals do Especially back then too I just knew it was something that psychiatrists did and I had such a bad experience at the children's justice center with Psychiatrists a few days after I was rescued because we were told if I talked to them They could stand as proxy for me during the trial that of course did not happen But I'd just been kidnapped by a middle-aged white man claiming god commanded him to and then I was being very Intensively questioned by two middle-aged white men Clearly religious Yeah, I was Very sheltered as a kid. My parents didn't call a penis a penis. It was like your privates I had to go down the whole pathway. I'd be like, oh, he hurt me. Oh, he messed with me. Oh, he raped me Oh, well, he stuck himself inside. He forced his penis and saw him have a vagina I had to get to that level of language with the psychiatrist with the two psychiatrists Must have been so uncomfortable that I was like, this is the worst thing ever. I never want to talk about this again Yeah, I don't want to think about this anymore. And if these are psychiatrists, I am not going near Anyone ever again and now in retrospect Do you think you would have benefited from the right therapist at that time? If I really understood what it was, it could have benefited me But I will forever be grateful to my parents because they were Understandably panicked when I was like, nope. I'm not doing this. My parents went to therapy and their therapist was like If she doesn't want to talk, it's okay It's not going to do her any good if she doesn't want to you need to let her make Her own choices and you just need to make sure you're taking care of yourselves because whatever she's been through Will have been awful and you need to make sure you're both in a place that if she Wants to talk to you, you can be in a place to hear it. I am so grateful that they gave me that choice Well for all of you guys to heal from this your father has to Accept his own shame forgive himself move beyond that you have to deal with your shame Everyone's got to get their shame out of the way kind of before we can Possibly process all this and talk about it This is dangerous of motion and feeling to be caring and I bet everyone was carrying a good deal of it I actually asked my mom If she ever felt guilty about the window being left cracked open. It wasn't like wide open She said no. Oh, that's good because she was like I didn't invite him into our home He broke into our home. He violated our home. Yeah, that wasn't because I said here come on in Take my daughter. That's so healthy because when these bad things happen, I start blaming myself My guilt and shame over my situation was So different from yours. Obviously. I wasn't abducted I was lured. I had bad feelings in my stomach. I ignored those at times. Mind you. I was eight But I had to Really reckon that yeah, I didn't listen to my god. I know I didn't I feel so guilty and shame written about that And at some point I have to go and you were eight I mean even if you were 50 and it happened like at the end of the day So like my foundation the elizabeth smart foundation one of our main programs is called smart defense and it's a holistic approach to self defense trauma informed But it's a combination of muay thai krav maga brazilian jujitsu But my director she is a five-time world champion in her weight class for brazilian jujitsu But she'll tell you even with all of her training. She could still be raped tomorrow because at the end of the day the only way for Sexual violence to end for raped end is for rapists to stop raping yet to put the onus on the victim is a little crazy It doesn't matter how old you are who you are those details don't matter Well, the part that was healing for me elizabeth that sent me fucking balling is at the end you say You change your story from you should have done this or you could have done that To you can finish this you're strong keep going you can survive anything that comes your way And there's some pride to be had in that Because you can kill yourself with I should have done this and why didn't I say to the cop and why didn't like the the self Abuse you can give yourself because you didn't act like a fucking hero in a movie But that a hero something I can survive And make it to today Is fucking so beautiful I really appreciated that I mean Each one of us has survived our worst day. Yeah, that's the fucking victory. You're a hero if you survive There have been times in my life where I hate where I'm at or I don't like what I'm doing or I willingly signed up for a marathon and I'm at like mile 18 and I've hit the wall and I'm like What the hell am I doing? Why am I here? Why did I pay to torture myself? Yeah, exactly. And then I'll be like No, if all these other people around me can do this I can do this I survived nine months of being tortured and kidnapped if I can survive that And all these other people haven't experienced that not to judge him because I know everyone has a story No, you can no you're a bad motherfucker. They probably haven't done that and so if they can do this I can do this right you can do anything. Oh, man. How was having your name? How did that play out everywhere you went you were elizabeth smart you went to college you went to byu What was the weight of that and did you ever consider changing your need? Do you ever any desire like I don't want to be elizabeth smart the girl who got kidnapped? I would assume you understand. There's elizabeth smart Whoever one thinks they know and then there's me right well And then how do you do with pity because I bet a lot of people even upon meeting you have this like Oh, maybe they think you're fragile or how do you deal with that? I mean the people that have pity for me. They don't know me. Yeah, but that's so healthy to know that Do you want mom people's pity? No, but if it helps them feel better just to be like, I love you I prayed for you. I'm so grateful you're alive. I followed your story I can listen to that but like I feel like if you get to know me then you're like, oh She's fine. You can kind of separate so it wasn't a burden for you to have been so well known and then tried to carry on with a Normal quote. I'm quoting again Normal life nor who is hard? There have definitely been times where I'm like, I am sick of being elizabeth smart. Where is the benefit in all of this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, or what about when you fell in love? Did it re? Ignite that cycle of I'm damaged. This guy's got to know this about me Or you would work through all that by then? No by that point I was like if anyone ever judges me for that, they're not worthy of my time. Yes. Good. My husband He didn't know who I was. I mean he's from Scotland Born and raised had no clue who I was if the scots are anything. They are stubborn So He was never afraid to push back or tell me exactly what he thought which I still appreciate But back then I was like, thank you because I felt like everyone just would tell me yes Or go along with whatever I said probably because I thought I'd break or they didn't want to hurt my feelings or something But he was like Nah, I don't think so That's a good partner. I love that about him Yeah, some days No, I love that about him. What did it do to your relationship with religion? It's so funny monica. I was just about to say The one thing that was really not addressed in the doc. It seems crazy to me that we're not addressing it is exactly that How do you think religion is intertwined in this story? Uh too much too much a huge part of it I have seen enormous Beautiful positive outcomes of religion. It's working for the vast majority of people and it's a gift to people's life And I see that and I also want to say I'm in AA. That's my religion There's fucking knuckleheads in AA and if they go out and they kill someone in the name of AA That's not AA. That's a fucking knucklehead who wanted to use that So I'm gonna recognize all that I don't want to disrespect anybody when I say what I'm about to say Which is the three jadeo christian old testament religions The prophets are all male. The apostles are all male. The characters are all male. The leaders are all male If you're inundated with that and you are a little bit off I think if you're a male you think you are entitled to a lot of shit that this thing said well clearly Only the men talk to god only the men lead the people In this entitlement and then also this historic thing with child brides and multiple brides It's all religion too and without religion the scene doesn't work at the library Why on earth would this person honor that that's for postures when it goes bad? This is the part it goes bad and and I'm just curious what did all of this do to your Feeling about religion and are you scared to even say it? I am so grateful for The values that I was raised with I am grateful for the importance that Family played in my life for the belief that god is kind and loving and he's merciful and not Vendictive and a harsh cruel god. I'm so grateful for that but now as a grown-up and looking back on everything that happened and Honestly looking at a lot of things in this world. I think it's too easy for a religion to Again, I agree with you. There's many beautiful things I'm grateful for all of those things but also now as an adult just because someone tells me something that doesn't mean I believe it And it sounds maybe like I'm cynical but also I just know how quickly people take religion to Fanaticism when someone thinks they're talking to a supernatural being this is dangerous Because that supernatural being has the ultimate morality and the ultimate everything so your justifications are so built in It's hard for me to get into brian David mitchell's head and find out if he really believed all of it But if he really did believe all of it and he is receiving what he thinks is these Messages from god then the laws of the land mean nothing the police mean nothing your judgment means nothing That's a dangerous tool for a megalomaniacal narcissist to have What about your dad leaving my dad leaving the churches we're talking about. Yeah Yeah, I mean it was that part of like so your dad came out as gay and so he left the church So I have a really great friend who was raised very very religious And she had her struggles with it But what for her was the breaking point was her brother came out as gay and the family was like no way and she was like Hold on a second. There's no fucking way that I believe in a god that doesn't love my brother as much as Everyone else i'm out if that's what you're saying It's about that i'm gone and I just wondered if anything with you and your dad I mean he called me it was like six or seven in the morning It was really early and I was in that such a sleep deprived state because the baby wasn't sleeping I swear I was up all night. So can you see a phone call at like six or seven in the morning? Oh, it's horrible. Yeah who died like who's in the hospital? What happened? They don't draw the lottery winning ticket at 6 a.m. So like he's calling with great news That's in the evening. I mean honestly, I thought my mom was in the hospital, but it's like word vomit. He's just like Elizabeth I'm leaving the church. I'm divorcing your mother and I'm gay Like a one two three just like Wow and I was like What? I'm sorry. I haven't had my coffee yet. Did I come again? Sorry. What'd you say? And he just like kept going and going and going I was like what all I could think to say at the end was well You're still my dad. I still love you see what I was thinking was so weirdly unique about that situation And why I bring it up is not to be salacious is You had this thought that I might get rejected From this dirty secret I have and I would no longer be loved and your dad hugged you In that police station. It was very obvious that would never be the case And then you're weirdly in a situation where he's got this Shame you get to a jail and you get to be the person that also would never ever abandon him Yeah, he'll just never stop being my dad and actually over the years It's not that my dad and I weren't ever close, but it was almost like Because I was so close with my mom. I'd call my mom and my dad would be in the background So I didn't necessarily feel like I needed to call my dad because he was like next to my mom Dad's mostly pick up the phone and say I'll put your mom on Pretty much Or like if I went to my parents house I'd mostly be there to like hang out with my mom and my dad would be in and out and be like, well, hi dad So then when this happened something really nice that came out of it Was that it made me really establish my own relationship with my dad and not just piggyback it off of my relationship with my mom When I talk to him now, it's very intentional and not just like oh, hey. Yeah, that's lovely. I think you're astounding I can't believe how well you have Managed and healed from this Insane once in a generation story and as you said it's happened a bunch of times So I shouldn't say that but the fact that you've Not only succeeded and kept moving forward and built a family and a life That you also started your foundation and you've been very active and you've been to congress and you are on it You took the worst situation and seemed to have made the best possible outcome from it Well, thanks. That's very impressive. It is extremely and I really Really appreciate how openly you talk about all of the shame and guilt and the experience in the doc I think it's enormously helpful. I'm glad my daughter's got to see that I actually asked my daughter if she wanted to watch it with me. She was like, no How do they compute what happened to you? They don't right because you're just their parent They only had one and that parent got abducted They know what happened. I mean, they don't know like details But they know I was kidnapped and they know I'm like no sleepovers ever totally fair things and whenever I say no to something They're like why and I'm like, you know one That's my job, that's right. Yeah, what's the tension like because I have this with my wife I'm like, I don't like that dude. Why is he take so many pictures of kids? Why is he a youth sports coach? He doesn't have kids. I'm like way hyper vigilant about all of it And I think my wife is generally pretty tolerant of it. Occasionally she's like you're being nuts How does that play out? Do you guys have these kind of debates? I say I'm pretty cautious I also remind myself not only is it my job to keep them safe, but it's also my job to like prepare them For when they leave home make sure that they know how to trust their gut and work through their emotions and figure out their own problems And so my natural instinct is always like intervene and hovering around them. And so I would say I Fight a lot against my natural instinct. Yeah, that's hard. Which it is But does your house ever have to say Elizabeth we're good? I'd say We're a lot on the same page like my son decided it'd be a good idea just to go to his friend's house for halloween instead of coming home first And we didn't know And No, thank you. So you were like calling the school Calling all of his friends and I mean we found him and then my husband was like I'm coming to get you right now Yeah, can you not do a scottish accent? I would assume if you live with a scott Well again, thank you so much for your openness and appreciate coming to see us. We really appreciate you Yeah, and um and the documentary is outstanding. It's incredibly well made. It's flawless. It's so good. It's called kidnapped Elizabeth smart january 21st on netflix. I appreciate it and good luck with everything. Oh, where should people go for the elizabeth smart foundation? Yeah, just go to elizabethsmartfoundation.org or we're on the social media. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right Hi there, this is hermie and hermie and you like that you're gonna Check Okay, so we heard back from the new york times Big deal because last week we were talking about Monday. Oh, yeah Monday. We were discussing The armchair expert on connections. Yes And I said, you know, we don't know for sure. Yes, if it's about us or if it's just a phrase But I took matters into my own hands. I posted in tagged wina, which is why we're here. They reached out. Hi rob Hope you're well. I'm on the pr team at the new york times and we're closely with wine aloo the creator of connections Actually win aloo. We know that that's actually how her name is pronounced. We just keep saying it wrong I saw dax's recent instagram story about connections which inspired me to reach out We're huge fans of armchair expert and knowing that dax is a fan of connections in new york time New york times games more broadly made this feel like a particularly fun and natural overlap Anyway, they're gonna send us some connections new york times swag, which is exciting But um, I think we can conclude from this That we're right I just don't I need to hear it. I need proof I'm a fact checker. So I need to hear it from The horse was asked. Yeah from winna Well, first of all win Um hard at it great confirmation number one for me and then this is like it's a done deal I think it would for me to feel good. It would need to be armchair expert podcast. Okay That's asking for a might as well spell out our name She can only be so blatant about her why she has ethics. No, she spells out. There's there's Stars on there. What would be fun? Oh, well a I want to talk to her. So we're gonna try to talk. We're gonna try Yeah, second. I wonder how many other things she's a fan of that. We're missing I want to find out her list of her little fun hobbies that she's winking at like how many people Is winna winking at she winks but the winna wink They'll call it from now on but this okay. So this is to my broader point like sometimes she'll do categories and it'll be like, you know What will end up being is like? movie stars in horror movies or whatever I don't think that means necessarily that like she's a huge fan of those people No, for sure if she's just trying to do a person and connect through four projects But this isn't that maybe she thought we'd win and so that's why she had that set. Um Yeah, maybe she went went out went out money. She was like, ee It's like, how do we change it to good hang? Yeah, she thought it was gonna be a celebratory Wink. Anyway, we do love connections. So it's just if you had to pick between a wink from winna on connections Or a golden globe. What's your pick? Oh winna 100? 1000% yeah, because I like it entered our other life like it entered our real life. I know that was our real life It also entered our real life. It entered in a way that was like we Engaged with this we like it so much to feel like oh, maybe she likes it Would be great. So that was fun. Um, did you have a post show come down? Yeah I think of my adre I had an adrenaline Dump, but also as I keep saying but I keep cutting My mouth really hurts Very badly and when your mouth hurts, uh-huh and you and you use your mouth to make a living exactly Like a prostitute or a flute player or a podcaster. Oh, I can't imagine being a flute player right now Prostitute No, I could just use my hands. No you these you have to use your mouth Your clients really really insist trust me They would not want me to use my mouth if they saw the inside of my lip right now It looks gross. You're overestimating johns in general and that's kind of you You are never judgmental. Yeah, but your your mouth, you know, you used to talk used to eat That's when it's really activated To drink which is why I'm extremely dehydrated And because it gets so much action is just not healing it won't heal I keep biting it and won't heal But you had a huge output I just want to acknowledge because I was with you yesterday And I was like I can tell she's had a really busy week like you were at you went to six events Lots of events a different outpads and the The stress of the interviews and the picture like yeah, I could tell yesterday was like, oh my god What have I been through in the last six days? And I was doing that with a flu as well Yeah, it was a mix because it was it was a lot of events over the course of the week which were fun like they're fun but they You know I think people I'm just going to get you know people look at celebrities Movie stars mainly and tv stars and stuff and they're like, what do they have to complain about? They just go and get their makeup done and their hair done and they wear cute outfits and they take pictures and like Like annoying for you to complain which I get Yeah, but it's not That easy to like It it takes a long time these glam routines Take a long time That's your dude. Yeah, exactly if you're a woman you it's it's hours and hours and If you have a job as I do You don't have other things fall by the wayside. So then there's like stress building because you're like, oh I'm behind on this and I'm behind on this and I'm just sitting here getting my makeup done like Yeah, I don't think being prettier is going to help with the edit. Exactly and then The main thing for me and this is this is weird because it's normally not very cold in california It was cold last week very chili. It was cold. I was outside in You can't wear a jacket, right? You're not allowed if you're a if you're a woman To wear a jacket because there are pictures you gotta stand on your tiptoes and your purse is a fucking joke I was thinking this because I'm always in this situation with christin. I'm going places with her and she has this clutch It's a joke that it's not even a thing and so I'm holding all of her stuff If a phone won't fit in there, you know the fucking nicotine spray won't some you know come multiple swing And I'm just like why is a why is a bigger purse ugly? Why can't you have like a normal size purse on the carpet? In life like you there are big purr my purse is enormous and it's very cute. I love it Yeah, I have a full pharmacy in there your apothecary, but I can't know you can't that would be a big like bad Thing to do faux pas to bring a big purse you bring a tiny purse You can't wear a coat because that covers up your outfit And so you're also freezing cold but have to act very very comfortable Oh, but I just had a breakthrough idea for you for your first billion dollar business, okay You need to design a very elegant handbag. Okay that has like it's designed to hold your pharmacy Oh, like it has individual You know, it's got like pill packets that come in there and like little Sleeves like you put a coke can in but it's for pill size things And it because generally it's just sloshing around But if you have the whole inside was lined with like little Rallings to put all your pills and your bottles And you somehow do a play on apothecary. I don't know I don't have it yet, but it's like apothecary You know, it's a bag of Gary or something you something Bag and apothecary are mixed And that's your new billion dollar idea. The problem is I only want 100 million A bit Hey this one The issue is although may I could do a good marketing campaign and stuff Yeah, but like I'm the only one walking around with a pharmacy in my bag It may be as complete as yours, but I'm telling you most women when I say I need something They have like they have fucking Advil in their purse. Yeah, they have stuff. They have the basics All you women have medicine in your purse to varying degrees Okay, but people have the basics, but mine is extreme and it comes I know because I'm with other women and people will be like, uh, I'm wish I had a my doll Yeah, and then I'm like I have it And they're like, I didn't even know they still made those anymore. It's like I have it or it's old But I have it there's a spill and I'm like, here's my tide stain stick No one else has it, you know, I have it all Yes, and so I need to figure out a way to convince the world that they need it all I can man get on board too. And it's like there's also a man bag We don't believe in medicine or carrying medicine Until you know that you know that I know but I've also provided from my pharmacy to men because they're like They're so injured and hurt. I'm all over the place Sorry, ADHD now, but this hit me as a theory the other day I was reading an article about that sad seasonal affected disorder effective effective disorder. Yes, which I suffer from Women suffer from 5x of men. I just read this two days ago and I started thinking of course it is because y'all were gatherers And you're gathering when it's sunny and in the wintertime There's not much to be picked. Now, grant I understand when we're doing a lot of other stuff But the trips out the exercise the walk the gathering the chatting that happened in hunting gathering All that stuff is diminished during these cold in uh non Harvesting months and I think there's some connection there. That's my new theory. Okay. I like that theory Now when did daylight saving start? It started I want us I'm gonna guess rob you're gonna look it up But I'm gonna guess it started in the 50s and it has something to do with farming Oh, right. Yeah, it is something to do with farming and some oh Something to do with the kids working before school. So I think when school got mandatory You need a daylight to get the kids to be able to work a little bit before they went out. What is it rob? All right, it was a wartime measure in 1918 for seven months during world war one the Uh, it was added in the interest of adding more daylight hours to conserve energy resources Oh, wow. I fucking got that way wrong. Why do we both think that thing? I just yeah I heard that too. Maybe you told me urban legends I think either work. Okay. No, we're here for facts rob early 70s There was another energy crisis and they passed a bill in congress to make it permanent And then arizona said fuck that in hawaii said fuck that I know and I wish california had said we already said Fuck it. I don't know why we can't enact it. It's we looked it up once I forget But you know, I've changed my tune on it a little bit. Oh I know And you made two as you age Because I now get up earlier And I love My favorite thing is I'm on my bed meditating and quite often I start it's dark And then at the end of that 20 minutes, I open my eyes and I can see The hillside of griffith park is now lit up That's nice and I love that and but right before daylight savings kicks in I'm doing that whole thing in the dark And I'm like I'm up and it's depressing to be starting my day in the dark But you sleep a little later. So you're never dealing with when it's dark. It doesn't get light till 7 30. You don't really know Okay, I've been wanting to bring this up forever. Okay. I wrote it down in my notes of fact check stuff great About a month and a half ago. Okay, as you know, I cut my hair And my bathroom isn't backlit. It's all front lit. Uh-huh. So when I work out I get this crazy View of stuff going on behind my head that I normally can't see. Yeah And so I have moved a set of scissors into the gym, right? And so you might know that I trim my hair while I'm working out pretty often I'll always trim it in two different spots and then I get the vacuum out and I vacuum where my hair Fell, okay, but as I'm doing that I realize I'm seeing your guys's hair everywhere Oh, no Yeah, like you you guys are just dumping fucking hair everywhere and it's the longest hell and you guys never think I better vacuum that up So I'm seeing in the gym. There's just like long hairs laying everywhere. And then I think Why can't I just leave my cuttings on the ground? No, but isn't that funny? But if you think about it, there's more y'alls long crazy hairs than my little short trimmings But I would feel insane to leave those short trimmings, which you probably can't even see but it's why isn't it the same? Okay, it's different because our hair isn't falling out and like a big clump on the ground and there's just a big clump there It's like one like probably just fell out and then like Later over there one. Yeah, and then after a week of that if I look across my gym floor There's long hair everywhere. You actually can't see any of my trimmings But you can't I'm not going to get a vacuum to vacuum up one hair. Thank you You're right. I know you won't and none of you will but but it's insane It's insane that mine's like tinier and I'm like, of course I'm going to clean up the hair that I put on the ground Okay, but if like when I get my hair cut uh-huh I clean up that hair Right because it's an enormous pile. Well, because there's it's it's in a pile. It's not like it's scattered around But let's not use hypotheticals. Let's use the one that's happening in my gym So there's these little tiny like I'm cutting, you know, probably a quarter of an inch off in places But how much like how much you can't see it. That's what I'm trying to tell you like eight hairs You know, whatever I just do a snip but my my here's my point We're missing where we've missed the force for the trees or whatever No, that's these are important questions. You can't even see where my hair is on the ground after I trim Okay, and yet I know I would feel insane To not get the vacuum out and vacuum where I was standing because I know I just cut my hair Over the floor. Are you suggesting women should should carry a uh a little mini vacuum? Every let's see how your bag turns out if you can figure out how to get a dust buster in there without a big bulge in it So it doesn't look like you're carrying around though Well the cumulative length is probably similar too It probably was Cumulative length of Dax's hair versus long one of your one of your strands. It's like if you ask If you walk through and you see a big clump, but you don't that's I just want to see it for myself to see what the what if I can see the hair This is where I'm going with all of it. I'm not asking you to do anything. Okay. Okay I'm trying to see if I could just unethically cut my hair in there Just forget about it because there's already fucking hair everywhere and I can see the other hair And I'm no one seems to care about that. So why am I so worried about my little shavings that you can't even see? I'm I'm questioning. I was like having a moral Dilemma up there. Wow wondering if I'm free to just Cut and run. It's your house. You can do whatever you want. I know but I wanted your opinion on it I mean look, I guess if you can't see it You could live and we're living with the other hair. That's very visible until the whole space gets vacuumed right like that's That's the thought you shouldn't probably Never vacuum. Well, no, but I guess then sure. I guess you could leave it until the weekly vacuum I just was vacuuming. I'm like, this is kind of crazy. Why do I even do this? I can't see my hair and I see all this other hair. I have a question now if you're cooking Yeah, and a little like, you know, I don't know salt gets on the floor or something just a little bit like a one or two Do you vacuum it up? Not for two grains of salt, right? Exactly. So it's kind of like that like when you're cooking. It's like sometimes things get on the floor I don't vacuum after every time I cook. I know which we probably should I guess But then yeah by the time the end of the week, it's like, yeah, the floor is dirty It's crunchy. It needs you walking their barefoot and you've got basically um, Seasoning like season fries. So I think if you're comfortable with it and your family's comfortable with it You can wait during for the weekly vacuum. Oh man It just felt like a um a pointless endeavor. Yeah when we were already accepting of all this two foot long hair That's everywhere. The issue is I think the women Probably unless it's like how I imagined it in like a big clump. Yeah, that's bad, right? But if it's like you're saying you can't see it I don't think I have a problem. I don't think anyone has a problem with that except you You should see what I pull out of our drain. I call it fishing Sure and about once a year. I'm in the shower and I'm noticing, huh? This stuff's starting to back up a little bit like the water's not flowing the way It's time to go fishing and I have a fishing rod off created It's a it's a coat hanger unwound and then I've bent up a little hook at the bottom I can get it down in the drain and takes a bunch of and then I twist Oh, yeah, and then I get it out and Lincoln generally will join me because she likes to get because it's what gets pulled out of there I know No, it's it's a mouse like back to your water fear Yeah, it's a mouse and it smells so gross and it also turns into like oil like somehow it's decomposing It's always like in a black tar. I know I don't get that but let me tell you something I think you need to teach the girls in your house about hair walls. No Yes No, because they're not going to then clean the wall. No, they they have to clean the wall They have to but they're not going to I'm like trying there's like what they should do and what what's gonna happen Okay, but would you okay? So then would you dax rather have hair on the wall or The drain for you to have to pull out as a rat if I have to pick between cleaning the wall Every time I shower. No, my resentment would get it's like motherfuckers. You put your hair on the wall Take it then to the trash. I like it'd be a daily resentment probably Versus once a year I go fishing and there is I must you like it Well, there's a reward like when you pull that rat out of there Yeah, you're like, oh my god. I'm so glad it's out of there. It's the same thing I don't understand what's going on. I need to talk to an evolutionary biologist when you pop a great Pimple. Yeah, the amount I think about the moment it popped For the rest of the day. Oh, I don't know that you don't I just keep going back to back to the moment like there's such a wave of relief. You've gotten that out Yeah, and and I'm talking to pop like a satisfying. Oh, it's like, oh, thank god. I did that Usually you regret it. You're like, I shouldn't do this. But occasionally it goes really well Yeah, just went really well for me at the hotel night before golden globes And I just kept thinking I was even thinking about it two days later Okay, just want that moment to keep happening over Pop pop pop pop don't say that because then you don't but you don't you don't want your skin to be bad enough See, I think this is skin privilege personally because because I Don't have that because it happens enough like it's not like If it goes do not get that huge way in the moment. It's like thank god it's out. Thank god. Okay, great. We get that Yeah, but it's the recurring thing that I think is skin privilege because like I know that's coming. I'm doing the opposite I'm like I just like hope I can get A lot of time in between the next time I have to do that. Yeah, I don't want more But I love that moment so much. There's something going on Yeah, it's like this isn't supposed to be here and I got rid of it. And now I look better Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare So So wait, what were we saying before skin? Oh the rat. Yeah, okay. So hair walls are great for the listener it You you wash and like when you condition and it's it's like it's coming out You know it's coming out and you feel it in your your shedding and you you like grab it in your hands And you stick it on the wall and then you do that throughout the shower It's important. This is important stuff because you're then you're not clogging your drain and But do you take it off the wall? Yes. Okay. Sometimes I okay sometimes I don't but I live by myself I get I that's my privilege. Did you rub boogers on your? No, I don't want to talk about I did not I hate the hair wall too. You hate it. But you put boogers somewhere a Kleenex Fuck we didn't have Kleenex. What you guys were the Rockefellers I would you know what I would do kids one of the kids I knew they were just rubbing in I know they're disgusting. I would lean over and put it on the metal railing under my bed I want to cut this because this is so disgusting And yes, I did that. Okay. You put it under the railing. I put it like under the bed. Yeah Every kid in America must be doing this. I bet every kid's It's just full of boogers. I just flick it on the carpet Yeah, some people do carpet. I never did that. I wonder what age you outgrow the booger under the bed when you can afford Kleenex But I don't have Kleenex. I do have Kleenex by the other side of my bed, but I don't use it like I don't What are you doing with your boogers? I don't get I don't do that anymore. I don't get nearly enough boogers I miss them so much when you're kidding you boogers all the time. I never have boogers now Maybe it's because you're it probably is because we were picking them out And so it was creating like more and more and more like my throat clearing Yeah, and now when you don't touch it. It's just like it's fine Once in a bloom of mine, I'm digging around because god, I inspect all the time Oh, I'm constantly in my nose like looking for one. There's never Yeah, it's often on camera by the way me looking You do touch your nose a lot. No, I don't yeah, stop Well, my fucking nostrils like no, what you know, I can put two fingers in my nostrils. No problem. Most people can't do that Yeah, I can't do that. Well, I can almost oh I mean, I have the biggest nostrils You remember my people teen people magazine shoot when I was yeah skydiving I look like porky the pig you told us about it, but we never we couldn't find it and we shouldn't find it No, I hope if anyone has it, please burn it. Yeah Or tuck it under your booger railing under your bed No, don't guys I don't want to talk about boogers for some reason of all I know For some reason of all the things we talk about so much gross stuff and I'm actually I'm fine with all of it, but There is something about boogers that is disgusting To me and I and I don't know what where that line is drawn like why? Yeah, probably because when I was a kid Like boogers are the thing that makes you gross Yeah, they're disgusting on other people, but that's just like farts reading so many new articles that it's really good to smell Your farts. I sent you one and said you're gonna die. No, I didn't not to smell them What'd it say? No, it said the gas is good for your body to really it says it's it holding in farts is bad I sent you another one. There's some yeah, there's some chemical compound that they have figured out is good for you to breathe in Oh my god Yeah, and I said you're gonna die if you don't start farting and breathing. I'm not doing it. I'd rather I'd rather die. I guess Oh my god This is where we're at I know I've already told this but it reminds me of the time I went to my brother's field hockey game And I was like six and I was sitting on this log and in fact it was a Telephone pole laid on its side that was a makeshift bench and field And and I'm sitting on it and I'm watching my brother play field hockey another little boy sat down next to me He's my age And we're just he's probably watching his brother Yeah, and then I know and we're both just looking forward and he goes you eat your boogers Just that was the icebreaker He eat your boogers and I didn't I'm not judgmental of it, but I didn't eat my and I was like no And he's like no and I went no I do oh like he had to get it off his chest or something Maybe I've always I'm not gonna go about the compliment myself I've always had this scale. Maybe people just want to tell me You've always had this scale bringing out people's The vulnerability is I didn't even do anything. There's just something about my face where people like look at this piece I'll try I'll tell him anything when he's not gonna be judgmental of me Maybe it's your nostrils stinging ding Could have bad but what a great moment in childhood I like that boy because you know what after you said no, he could have said me either right My brother does that's what I was asking Yeah, he was so into it. He was probably like, oh, yeah, I can't wait to talk about the the joy of doing this I can't wait to find out this guy's doing the same thing like your joy pulling out the rat from the drain It's weird, but anyway, I do want to show you a picture of the rat. You don't want to say that I don't like rats. I know no one in my house wanted to see the picture either Oh, so bum because I want to I that's like the closest I can get to going and killing a gazelle Like I want my family to reward me that I was willing to do the gross thing because that's the guy's job Is to like handle the that stuff? So if I do it, I want everyone to go like thank you dad We didn't want to touch that but you're brave enough to do it You know what what they would do that for what they would say thank you for Is if you clean the hair wall every day, okay, you're still on this hair wall. Yes the hair wall is is important and um, it's it's Preserves the drain Sometimes it's cool like at the end of the at the end of the shower. You're like, oh my god like So much hair. Yeah And then you're like, oh no, I'm in peri menopause because all this hair is coming out and then You forget about that the next day and that happens again once you have your period and it's healthy and Well, you still have your period during period Anyway, um hair wall do you think I could okay? Maybe I could have a product a new product Well, I was just gonna say why don't you have a suction cup with a little bucket on there, right? That you can just dump the hair in there Yeah, it's just like more fun because it's not even about you like to go It's efficient because you're just like you're doing this and then you just She's right in her hands through her hair because my eyes are closed because of the water Um, are you gonna duck and do this in your new fancy bathroom? Of course. Oh my god I'm not gonna clog up the drain in my new fancy. That's true and the the primary bath has blue tile So I bet my black hair on that blue tile would be so nice Really nice I have a humongous thing. I have to pause this. I thought we were doing this tomorrow So I had prepared for this but now I'm remembering I have something enormous. Can you give me one second? I'll be right back Okay, I'm back, okay um Groot What happened got fan mail? Oh, wow Hi, and delta is so pumped. Oh my god. She's I came home yesterday And I said where's delta and christen said she's upstairs because Groot got fan mail And they were up there going through the fan mail together. What is it? Groot was sent by joseph lopez A book Yes, it's called maven charlie meet the neighbors. Oh, it's about a dog and uh, I guess that's a squirrel Chipmunk or a ring-tailed lemur. I'm not good at animals as you know um But he got his first bit of fan mail. Was there like a letter to you is He's famous. Oh my god And he hasn't acted the least bit different, but this book has been dedicated to groot. It says signed by the author That is so cute joseph lopez. Thank you. That's made everyone's day. This is so sweet. I am I'm a little I'm concerned. I already predicted this in my head. What's your concern? He's a kid He's handling it so well. He doesn't act it entitled at all. He's completely humble. Okay. He's humbled by the gesture He's more humble post fan mail than pre-fan mail. Okay. I just you know, it's like child stars is a tricky thing It is a tricky thing But if you've got great parents, yeah, who have been through this That's true. That's helpful. You mean great grandparents grandparents. I'm his grandpa. Yeah, exactly Yeah, his grandpa who he lives with though. All right, but yours grandpa Okay, I'm his only male in his life and he really looks up to me because he's a boy in a tree I mean, I guess since you did drugs, maybe you could talk to him Yeah, but like I thought ones are good. See that's my worry No, he's not as you know, he has a lot of different Challenges because his cardiovascular system is half tree half boy. Yeah, he breathes carbon dioxide and oxygen So I don't think he should inhale anything. Yeah, I don't want him to do anything I wouldn't mind that he does mushrooms and expands his mind as a kid No When he's in it when he's an adult I know so you need to talk to him about that because he's gonna have the opportunity young Because he's famous. Yes, and drugs are gonna come to him But he's not Drew Barrymore. He's not going to night clubs. He just is here at the house. I'm just worried. He'll start sneaking out Hanging out with other celebrity kids celebrity kids. Who are the hot celebrity kids? No I feel like when we were young there were so many celebrity kids and I don't feel like there's a lot now Yeah, there were the stranger things kids, but now they're adults. You're right. Um Did you say you saw one that he was hot? Yeah, he's hot. Fuck. Yeah, he's not a kid at age 33. No the um Adolescent boy the boy from adolescence. Yes He's he's a child star kid kid star. He's one every award they make exactly Yeah, who else what happens is a few child stars go a wall and then we just think all child But look I was friends with josh hutresson and jonah bobo. I'm all the ones I knew Have done just fine. Yeah, that's true. Okay. This brings up my last point I'm done with points. Okay. The more that the film business has eroded which it has so dramatically Yeah, the oscars means less and less and less. I was even thinking like what who even comes now You got like two good movies that I remember four good movies It's it's really like more and more that shows gonna mean nothing Because of the movies that are getting made they're like big spectacle movies And then there's a couple movies no one sees there's not like this huge, you know treasure trove of 35 to 60 million dollar movies That were made your you know your michael clain's all these incredible movies. Yeah, I love They're they don't exist. There's really tiny independent movies And then there's a couple big movies and just all in all it means less and less and yet that's still somehow got the most Cache and it makes less and less sense now like are they gonna use are they gonna incorporate tv or what? Well, no, I still think it used to It used to still kind of be that like there would be in the there'd be no critical darlings Yeah, yeah, and then one or two like big movies and I think that's gonna happen I think that's gonna happen this year, but the point is is in 2004 There were 35 movies that all did well that everyone saw that big stars were in yeah And now there's about five I mean just really has just quantity has shrank by 85 percent And it was a real shootout. It's like right now. It's like You know, it's really between a couple mood. There's only a couple of big great movies It means less and less But it's I guess then it's like getting into that club Like being a critical Darling, but at what point do we're like like certainly viewership like no one's even seen the couple movies That they're gonna have up there, you know back then you like you had a bunch of favorite movies. You saw 10 excellent movies that year you wanted to see which one's gonna win best picture It's like right now. It's like you either want mar us marty supreme or one battle after another Like you're there's your 5050 shot. Well, no, I mean hamnant won the golden globe and people really like that But also it's supposed to be so sad. Yeah And you know train dreams people like it It's just also train dreams is on Netflix so it's like that's Confusing will that be at the academy or is I don't think no, of course. Yeah, it was they released but again, it's it's a It's a joke release to get to qualify for that It's just not what it wasn't in 3000 theaters the way it would have been in in the early 2000s Matters like sentimental value also will be nominated a great movie. No other choice Yeah, I haven't seen this amount of movies came out in one month in 2002, right? Like from september to december There was 15 well funded beautifully shot podium seeking films And so are they gonna either Invite in what people are watching Which is tv. Oh sinners will be sinners. Yeah, that's true. That's a good one You know, will they will they will they widen their net because they're getting less and less relevant? Maybe people aren't gathering around talking about movies like hamlet's probably amazing People in alcohol are not at the supermarket chatting about it right now guarantee it But people were at the supermarket talking about many of the movies that were coming out in the 2000s The way they're now at the supermarket talking about stranger things, right? In every other great show that's out. Yeah, maybe I don't know. I don't know. What's the most popular movie box office wise this past year 2025 wicked, right, which will probably get a new sinners What was in the box office category they have that now see they were small enough to have that they're like, okay This thing has changed so we got to recognize what's working, right? Whereas to me the academy words just like no word this thing It's very prestigious, but it's meaning less and less and less and I just wonder if they're gonna evolve Minecraft lead low and stitch superman Jurassic world in zootopia 2. Yeah, so all franchises virtually Superman good for our friend James Gunn friend of the pot. Yeah, I like James Gunn Yeah, that was a great episode and the emmies now people want to know the emmies they have 10 favorite shows Right. The emmies is what the academy words was you said 2004 oscars. Yeah, what do we got? Let's look. Okay, best picture nominees Master in commander huge movie and and original not a franchise not ip Mastering commander the far side of the world. I have to sneeze, but it's not coming see biscuit. Oh Original huge movie stars loss in translation Oh bill Murray Scar joe What a movie these are all so low though on the box office see that's no not the first two Uh 33 for master and commander Okay, what was the second one see biscuit see biscuit 200 million dollar movie. Okay, so 17 See biscuit did not make 17 million no no made 120 is 17th 17th in the box office still hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah But he's saying on the like it's not just the best the biggest movies. It's usually not coralline You're just saying more people saw it saw movies more than that the movies were well funded They're visually stunning the the craftsmanship they have the budget for the quality of the movies has fallen I I disagree with you on that. I think the movies that were nominated this year Are very high quality and and good whether people see them or not. I don't know but they are good What's the budget of hamnet? See if you can find that Or any of these really other than a one battle got a budget and that's cuz ali oh 30 to 35 million For ham net for ham net. Yeah, that's not tiny terrible. It's not great. I mean generally these These high-end dramas were like 40 to 60. It doesn't matter. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, also lord of the rings is on there Okay, I mean come on lord of the rings and then mystic river Yeah, shampan fucking Clint East no, uh, yeah, yeah um, but they were like Yeah, people went just people went to the movies more. Yeah, and so people were invested so like they had fallen in love with that movie And then they want to see if it's gonna win but I think with netflix and stuff like People are still seeing it. They're just seeing them in their house and great. Yeah, so what I'm saying is Instead of doing this like fake We're gonna release it in 13 screens for one weekend. So we qualify that's just a loophole We would acknowledge the real distribution is on netflix So just if you're the academy awards, even if you don't want to include tv Forget this fucking distribution thing Right, it include the ones that there's other great movies on other streamers that didn't do the theatrical distribution amazon wouldn't put out Roadhouse on five theaters so they could be you know, there's a lot of these movies, but they're not even playing that game So it's like academy awards. How about you fucking get over this distribution thing? So just to get more I mean if they want to save this right, I guess that's true I um, but I like that they're putting movies into theaters. I I saw I saw a fair amount of movies last year. Let me be clear. I wish everything I wish it were 2000. Yeah But because it's not yeah, that's not what's happening Who's why watch the academy awards? Yeah, they're probably gonna need to That's my whole point add in the the streamers. They're gonna have to do something. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I just look up 2000 This is like now fun. Okay. Yeah. What's happening in 2000? Okay cider house rules Great. I didn't see that 45th Toby but again, Rob even 45th is 60 times more box office than any movie that's nominated other than Do we have that and marty supreme is doing well it is because of that kid right, jimmy I admire how much he worked to get that movie to work. He did he pushed hard then we have green mild great movie Tom hanks sam rockwell friend of the pot. Yeah, he was great crazy. That's a great movie six cents. Oh my god I'm like movie Such a good movie The insider that's Michael man, but I don't see it so good about the philip morris 60 minutes debacle. I'll watch it Um Curb Russell guess can you okay? I'll give you a hint. Okay. See if you can guess the last movie. It's all it's this is a This is a tough year They were all tough. That's my point. I guess you're right. I guess you're right um, this movie is scandalous Eyes wide shot. No It has it had someone in it who's now been cancelled kevin Whatever his fucking name is spacy the big one seven. No, uh usual suspects. No scandalous He's this where he got sexually harassed at work by demi mor. No, that's michael douglas. There's two women Oh sexy women and Well, there's three women. Are they all so I think I know what it is. You know what it is. What is it? American beauty? Yes Oh My favorite great movie. I love that movie. What about 98? God did I love american beauty? That is such a good movie. Oh Oh Oh, oh god Okay, we're gonna have to cap it out here. I want to do one more. I know we'll do we'll do we'll do we'll run or we do Okay, but can I do one more? Yeah, yeah do one more. That's why I said here's where we cap it Okay, because I just did a random year. I didn't even think about it. Go to a hunting. Oh, I know this I should know this is 96 night. This is 98 Which I also thought was too late. God. I thought I I know it's weird. I'm very confused by that. Okay. Hold on Let me know. I'm nervous, but this is what ai Um, no 98. It's right. Okay. This year this year is so hard. Good. Well hunting Titanic As good as it gets James L great movie. Yes the full monty. Oh show it And la confidential fuck Man Russell crow is on fire. Yeah, he really was this is an impossible Year, I guess you are you're right all these years we're putting in all the movies at least three movies are like How will we know? I know. Yeah. Yeah, it's different. It's insanely different And now you're like, I don't know. Yeah, there's because even if you want like I want it to be sentimental value because that movie is so beautiful And there's also a movie called sorry, baby that I think is incredible But they're smaller like they definitely yeah The things that would have been at the independent spirits awards that year Right, and they would have been in the smaller, you know, or they might have made it in but it would have been like There were studio movies that were phenomenal. Now. There's only indie movies. Yeah, that's the point. I'm trying to make We got there. Okay. Love you. Let's do some facts. Okay This was wild Yeah, it's one of those I we have like five or six years were after the interview every single person that bumps into me is going to hear Yeah, the entire story because I think like most I don't think we were alone in not knowing all the twists and turns of this case Yeah I mean the fact that she interacted with law enforcement He got arrested while she was in captivity all this stuff is like If you were watching it in a movie, you might call bullshit. I know I've also since watched the doc And you know, we talk in depth on the episode which is amazing But there's a lot more in the doc like a lot more little pieces where you're like, what the fuck So like watch it Definitely watch that it's It is you need to see all the visuals like them in the white outfits is so Creepy. Oh my god. I was talking to my mother Um, because I was very inclined to share her parting message in the doc as my mother is also a survivor and uh, So she's laying in bed with her boyfriend Dan when I'm FaceTime Yeah, and he's like overhearing me talk about this whole thing and she and he goes Because he lived in Salt Lake during that time and he said My ex-wife and I saw them. No. Yeah, we saw the three People in the white outfits and we were like, what is wrong? What's going on? Stop it. Yeah, I wonder if I Saw them if I I mean no, like what are you gonna do call? What are you gonna do call the police every time you see something that looks a little weird like you can't You can this city. Yeah, it's it's um, it's a tricky line I don't know. No, I'm not gonna act like I would have somehow done something But I the thing I get yelled at a lot for If there was a girl missing I saw a girl covered head to toe. I think I you know, like I think I would yeah, because I don't mind confrontation, right But you know what's weird in that picture Rob just showed a picture and like Because she's so covered. Yeah, it's hard to tell that she's a young girl. I don't think it is I mean, I all you see useful that I that whole eye section forehead without a single wrinkle I mean, I bet there's a lot of people Insult like that feel bad that they saw them around. Well, that was about to be my question Do you think Dan's like, oh fuck like I wish I had done something but you can't do that because like No, I don't think he thought Elizabeth smart as much as he thought Who are these freaks in our town? Exactly that are walking around like it's the 1600s Exactly. Yeah, he didn't connect the dots like oh that might be Elizabeth smart because then maybe he would feel anyone who Look any human with a conscious That then learns what happened to her that knows they could have intervened is gonna feel guilty. I think some level of guilt Yeah, but you'd have to have the inclination that like, oh do we do I think maybe that's that girl? Yeah, okay, I guess I won't think about it again Then you'd feel bad, but I what I'm saying is in this city for this was happening now and it was this city Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't there's so many people looking crazy. I mean just being honest like I wouldn't know What was what I wouldn't I don't you know what I mean? I do know what you mean, but for me This is different. Uh, this is when you cover a woman's face Oh, you're not muslim, but I guess we we might have to assume they like are well, they don't wear all white That's true. Yeah, so and there'd be they're white. I know but people convert. Yeah people convert That to me looks pretty distinctly Different that to me looks like when I went to colorado city, arizona to a warren jeff's Fundamentalists compound, you know, I went there three times And drove around that thing and It's it's immediately wrong Yeah, the women are dressed as like pioneer people the The rate of kids that have genetic issues is so Unignorable. Yeah It is like a movie. Yeah, and it's not my place to go into their community per se But yeah for me if women are being subjugated. Yeah, I'm like it's on And I think if you're walking around with one dude and he's got four Women covered head to toe and they're not muslim I'm not cool with that I'd have to hear the scenario where everything was honky-dory there. All right. I've yet to hear the scenario where that was like a good thing this Harkens back to our last fact fact check, which is like you have an idea of what's right and wrong for you But we can't really put our right and wrongs on other people Unless someone's being hurt. That's right, which she was that's right, but hezabaugh Yeah, um wouldn't say she was being hurt. She wouldn't say she was being hurt, but she was being hurt by our standards So this is where things get very slippery. Well, they get into autonomy and liberty. Yeah You have the liberty to be subjugated if you choose. Yeah, interesting like yeah, but I mean Yeah, if you can tell this is a kid, but at the same time to pretend we can't delineate the difference between these things I think is also a lie. Like I think when when when when men are abusing people, um I don't think that's terribly subjective I don't think um Cliterectomies are subjective. I don't either but I think you would say in anthropology in areas like That is a part of their culture and you can't really have a judgment on that And this was my pretty big issue by the end of my anthro degree is I was like I think it serves an incredible an imperative tool to walk in without any goal of judging So that you can actually learn and understand But we have learned and understood now what the cliterectomy is about Yeah, and that is to deny women pleasure so they don't cheat on their husbands. Yeah, that's horrifying And you can suck a dick. I have no, you know, I can't I'm not a Moral relativist when it comes to hurting little girls. Well, yeah, yeah Yeah, I guess it's like at what point is it like once they turn 18 once it's like, you know, again, there's some blurry weirds It's hard. It is obviously. Yes. I mean, I think I think that Children have to be protected to the fullest extent But I don't know if you saw that if you're just like that's I don't know. It's so crazy. It's so horrible I can't believe she was just walking around And people were walking around and she was stuck like that and so scared to like It's horrible I think a trick you could I could get into is when I look back at myself at these different ages I think I'm older than I was and I think that's pretty common for people You're kind of using your modern mind to think about what you were But because I have a 12 year old It is just crystal clear to me What that experience would be like for her And it's so gruesome It's just terrible. That's so terrible. Yeah Um, but she's amazing. No, the fact that elizabeth is functioning and walking around and not only functioning but thriving and as a family and as productive is like So one in a million for this scenario. It's so Aspirational Yeah And admirable and yeah, okay a couple facts Also, you asked me you were like was that part of why you were so scared of kidnapping But when I was thinking about the timeline, no because she's my age and that I was in you were done with that by 14 Yeah, or I was still scared, but it had started when I was Five Something but you know, it's also really upsetting is like when I was first scared of kidnapping and it was in my prayer and stuff robbers and kidnappers I like poly class That she was one of the first ones that was kidnapped and that I was young for that I don't recognize that. Oh, it happened in san francisco and she was kidnapped and it was I think like a birthday party or something Yeah Horrible a slumber party at 12. Yeah My mom like was like obsessed with the poly class thing. So she was a little affected too with the fear Yeah, she was scared and then it's it, you know came trickled down effect Triggered on economics to me. It works and then we were in san francisco for my mom's work and like there were signs for her up Oh boy, but I was so you know, you you do forget to your point when you're like You think you're older. I didn't Know about rape looking back. I can only assume that I just thought like they just take you and keep you and you're their kid Now, I mean they spank you a lot or something. Yeah, but I had no idea what it really meant. Yeah Yeah Yeah, the kidnappings Really just the beginning. Yeah uh Okay, now Okay kidnapping statistics 2002 versus now There are many factors stats involved in this that it's hard to find a simple answer But from ai kidnapping statistics particularly for children show that while public perception in 2002 was heightened due to high profile cases The actual number of abductions by strangers has remained relatively low and stable or even decrease over the past two decades I think social media and smartphones has to Have an impact on the decline. I don't think you could get away with it for as long That's what I said after she left. I was like, I don't think that could happen today in the same way in the same way um, okay, so total missing children reports in 2002 around 725,000 children were reported missing annually to law enforcement and then in recent years approximately 2024 missing person files for all ages in the us In 2024 although this is still under the children thing And also missing persons like your your kid didn't come home from a night out and you reported It says there's over 533,000 The fbi reported a 40 drop in total missing children cases between 97 and 2014. Okay Also, could you type in what percentage of kidnappings are from or known person friend or a significant Majority of child kidnappings involve family or acquaintances not strangers with older data from the department of justice showing 49% by family members 27% by acquaintances and 24% by strangers. That's actually higher than I thought It is higher than I would have thought to so almost a quarter. Yeah I bit my lip yesterday really really bad. And so now it's like it's like so huge And you're talking lower lower Interesting because I was looking at your upper lip and I was like, did you get a little injection? Oh, no, I didn't know Wow, congratulations That's the goal. Like I saw in a comment some some woman wrote You have to stop wearing eyeliner you yeah, and I wrote I don't wear eyeliner, but thank you for the compliment Exactly Exactly Okay, you said alarm systems work in doorways windows using magnets. Yeah when the contact of the magnet breaks it sets off the alarm That is correct. Well, those are the facts. Those are the facts jacks Well, that was an incredible episode. I'm so I'm so grateful she came Me too and oh my god and was able she's just able to talk about it and help people like it's so helpful and You know, we have a handful of people like that like Amanda Knox and even like Monica Lewinsky who just like decide To to put their own trauma kind of aside for in order to help other people and it's like it's not easy No, and it's like we have to just be so grateful for it. Yeah All right. Love you. Happy thousand happy thousand Ding ding ding ding ding You