The Saami: Custodians of Our Planet

We are in a global crisis where we have to look at the system-wide questions and really start questioning the foundations of how the global society is constructed and how the global economy is constructed. Because if that's not sustainable, then by definition it means that it cannot be sustained. Welcome to the special English edition of Dekorsa Neustadt, a German podcast series by Zabille Barg, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who, inspired by the World Economic Forum's Great Reset Initiative, create revolutionary projects that actually do make our world smarter, greener and fairer. Today I welcome Aslak Holmberg, President of the Sami Council in Finland. The Sami people are the only recognised Indigenous people in the European Union, whose traditional territories are in the Arctic. Because the polar regions are the control centre of our climate system, around 80,000 Sami people are not only exposed directly to climate change, but to the politics of the Green Deal. As we will hear from Aslak, the Sami suffer the consequences of being occupied by four countries, Sweden, Norway, Russia and Finland, which means they cannot exercise their rights over their own land or livelihood. But now, thanks to their own strong movement, the Sami, like many of the 476 million Indigenous people, are making their voices heard in international forums like the United Nations, or the International Panel on Climate Change. Aslak spoke at Davos this year at the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum, where he made a significant impact. We are very honoured to have you here today with us. Aslak, there is so much to talk about. Let's begin with you. Tell us something about your life. Yeah, thanks a lot for inviting me. And Puerrepevi, as we say, good day. So, if we look at the status of Sami as an Indigenous people, then as you said in your introduction, we are divided by four state borders. And as we are Indigenous people, that means that we are not in charge of the institutions that govern our traditional lands. So, even if we have our representative institutions, the Sami governmental bodies, the Sami parliaments, then they don't have a very strong position when it comes to governance of land use and our traditional practices. So, our representative institutions are more in a position to be consulted, to present views, while the final decision regarding how issues impacting Sami life are decided, the decision making power is not with us, but it's with the majority population and their institutions. So, this is of course a very defining factor when you look at Sami as one people, then we are working towards four different national governments trying to get our views included and our rights respected. But it is an ongoing battle, I would say, and it is visible in many different fields. Of course, I've now mentioned the governance of lands and waters and traditional livelihoods, but of course it also comes to the matter of language. How can we use our language, what is the position of the nine different Sami languages that we speak, and working towards the rights to be able to use our mother tongue in official communications, as well as ensuring that our children and youth are getting taught Sami languages in school and that they have enough material to use in the education. So, yeah, we have a lot of work to do regarding culture and what comes to recognition and respect of our rights. You say that the Sami people live in four different countries, and we mentioned that before it is Sweden, Norway, Russia and Finland. Are the conditions the same everywhere? No, I would say there are quite some differences in different countries. And yeah, of course, the histories are, while there is a lot of similarities, then there are also national differences, what comes to the relations of the nation state towards the Sami people. So there are differences, what comes to recognition of our position as indigenous peoples and also what comes to the functioning of our governmental institutions and also what comes to the status of the Sami in the school system. There is quite a lot of differences from country to country. And yeah, of course, nowadays we are also very heavily divided by this border between Russia and Finland, Norway, Sweden. So this is also a very big factor impacting our cooperation. And obviously the situation is quite different with the Sami on the Russian side. But yeah, I would say there are quite significant national differences. You live in Finland, so how is the situation there? What are your people, what are you doing? What is your source of income? Well, of course, we have our traditional livelihoods and traditional economies, but also a lot of Sami are getting their main income from, I guess, what you would call modern or contemporary livelihoods. So for example, my own income comes from an NGO, so we apply project funding and then we run different kinds of projects. So this just to give an example that there are a lot of Sami who don't get their main income from traditional economies. But of course, those do play a key role. For example, here in my region, there is, well, reindeer herding is one of the main users of the territories. And it is a key livelihood for the region. Also, well, we have now experienced a big decline in the salmon stocks, but the salmon used to be an important part of our traditional economy, both by providing food security, but also, yeah, there are a lot of small Sami tourism businesses who were working through the salmon fishing. So in this region, especially on the Finnish side, also tourism is something that has become quite a significant part of the local economy also for the Sami families who work with that field. You were saying, sorry to interrupt, but you were saying it is difficult now, especially with the reindeer and the salmon fishing. What is difficult? Are we talking here? Climate change, government, what is difficult? Well, it is a multifaceted problem that we're facing or many different problems. But well, what is now most pressing, I would say, well, I'm most involved in the field of salmon fishing. So of course, we are now in a situation where we've been for two summers, we've had the whole fishery closed. So there has been no fishing allowed for the next, for the past two years, which means that we have no way of legally accessing our most important source of food and also what is a very important cultural significance for us, the salmon. So the salmon stocks have declined very rapidly in the past few years. So that is linked to climate change, although it's hard to pinpoint the exact cause and effect. But everything is pointing towards big changes happening in the ocean and issues that impact the survival of salmon from the ocean migration. So they're just not returning in same numbers as they used to be. This is something, a trend that is happening throughout the Arctic. So yeah, that is something that is really shaking our traditional economies very thoroughly when the most important resource, so to say, is taken away from our income and also the traditional way of making a living and getting food for the winter. So this is a really, really dramatic change that we have now experienced. Food for the winter, you talk about the reindeer, right? What was the salmon, I understand. What is the problem with the reindeer? Well, a lot of regions have started to experience in the past years, some in the past decade or more experiencing a loss of access to grazing lands. So of course, one issue that has been happening for decades is different kinds of competing forms of land use that are simply just taking away territories from our traditional use. So the areas that reindeer herding can use have been getting smaller and smaller. But what has changed in the past decade and even the past few years that more and more reindeer herding communities have had to start feeding the reindeer during the winter season because the grazing is blocked by layers of ice and snow. Because we are experiencing more and more changes in the winter weather. So when we have this zero crossings, when snow starts to melt and then then freezes again, then a lot of reindeer pastures have been locked under ice. So the reindeer haven't had a way of finding food. So this kind of grazing based reindeer herding is going through some very big changes now that many communities have had to start extra feeding the reindeer during the winter season. So this is actually an exceptional winter because in most herding communities they actually have quite good grazing conditions. But it's like some reindeer herders have described it that nowadays we get one good year in 10 years while we used to get one bad year in 30 years. So it has really changed that now there are more and more difficult years for reindeer to find the food. Then it brings a lot of extra pressure and expenses when you have to supplementary feed the reindeer so that they will survive through the winter. So do I understand that right? Your two main sources of income have been heavily disturbed now. And the Sami people and you as a president of the council react in what way? Well this is of course talking about the traditional economies and issues that do have a key role in our food security and that have important cultural importance. Of course there are a lot of other aspects to how Sami community is making a living. So this is mainly focusing on the traditional economies. So yeah of course these have experienced and continue experiencing very heavy disturbances and it is getting more and more challenging I would say economically also to make a living through the traditional economies. Well obviously if the whole fishery is closed then there is no way of getting any salamone so that is completely out of the picture. So that is really a fundamental change in this region and in the river Sami culture and traditional economy. So but it is also quite challenging to find solutions to issues where we don't know exactly what are the changes and as I mentioned with the salamone then it seems like the biggest changes have taken place in the ocean. So then when we come to the situation that we would have to impact them or improve the situation of the salamone in the ocean and the health of the ocean ecosystem then we are in front of huge and complex tasks. So what we do is we try to address these issues by through different bodies such as the Sami council we work through the Arctic council which is I would say knowledge cooperation body where we try to formulate ways of working together between Sami knowledge holders and researchers, scientists in order to create knowledge so that we would know what are the issues how can we address them what can we do. And that also comes to the other changes what I mentioned for example how we are losing more traditional territories to different kinds of industries and nowadays the biggest boom is the green shift and renewable energy mining industry. So in that field we work with the human rights and we provide support to communities. If they approach us for legal advisory we do our best to provide support for them and also we work through the human rights bodies to support communities and ensure that our rights are respected also in the green shift. You talk about the different use of land can you give us an example. Yes well to give one one example related to the green shift is wind power industry which is there are already quite a lot of wind power plants in the Sami territories and more and more are planned and and well the biggest inland wind power industry. Wind power plant in Europe it is in Sami territory in the Fusen area in the south set me and that is problematic to us because if an area is taken for wind power and production then it means that this area is lost from the from the Sami communities from their traditional use because. For example with the Fusen case it is the winter pastures of the reindeer that was taken for wind power development and the reindeer just don't go to this area anymore so this area is completely lost. So as was concluded by the Supreme Court of Norway in this case was that this was such a great disturbance to the Sami community that they will not be able to continue practicing their culture because they lost so big part of their traditional lands. So yeah this is one one example of how losing our territories from our traditional use is having a heavy impact on on a community and their way of working in their traditional economies. And you because you mentioned now this this wind park issue you presented that in Davos in front of yeah of the world's leading business people what was their reaction to it. Well at least one reaction I got was that people were learning for the first time about the fact that wind power could have such negative impacts on on a community level. So a few people approached me and said that they had never thought of this and that I mean wind power and the need for green shift is of course something that is needed and and it is often painted as a as a good solution. But what they learned was that it's not automatically positive because it can have devastating impacts on a community level. And also when I highlighted the Supreme Court case from Norway then I think it was news for a lot of business representatives that national legislation might not be sufficient to ensure the rights of Sami people. As was the case in in the Fusen wind power plant because even if the companies followed all the national legislation and the procedures put in place by the state then then still the wind power plant was considered illegal. And the and the license was considered invalid because it did reach a level that that was considered the human rights violation of the Sami peoples right. So this really highlighted that the national legislation is currently not sufficiently protecting Sami peoples rights and this is of course important. For for the business point of view because if you cannot trust that the national legislation sufficiently protects the interest of Sami people then this brings a lot of insecurity like how can you invest in something if you are not sure that even by following all the rules and regulations and laws that you would be on a safe ground. So this was also something that people received with quite a lot of surprise that actually it's not not enough to follow only the national laws and regulations but the international law has to be considered also when when considering some investments on the Sami territories. Yeah, that is a very interesting point here. You say it is being declared illegal and and still the wind from is there. Nothing changes. And now you you bring the problem to the international community like United Nations, the panel for climate change and so on. What is the next step for you? Well, with this specific case, it's it's been challenging to see what are the next steps because I mean we can take a case to international court if the national court system fails to provide an outcome that we we would see as respecting our rights. But in this case, it's very peculiar situation when the Supreme Court actually concluded that the the Sami rights holders rights were broken and that the company violated their rights and that the construction is illegal. But nevertheless, even if the license is invalid, then every day this this wind turbines continue operating. So in this case, the problem is that the Norwegian state is failing to follow up on its own Supreme Court ruling. So in this case, we are in a position of where where we haven't been before where actually we have national court decision in our favor, but the state is actually not following up on its own judiciary body's decision. So in this point, it's what we can do is is highlight this issue and remind the state that this problem is not going away and there is no need to just come up with with evaluations of what to do. But there is quite clear need to act regarding the court ruling. So it just bring bringing this issue to different arenas and reminding so that it doesn't just go away. Which actually brings me to the to the to the point that since the green shift is happening. Everybody is saying all stakeholders of society should have a seat at the table. And if we hear that when we talk about indigenous people, you're often called the custodians of the planet. Are you treated as such? And have you been included in in any way in the green shift and setting new standards and creating new laws for the planet? Well, of course, any involvement. Yes, we have had that. But if our role as custodians of all the planet is properly recognized, then I don't think we are we are there by a mile. But I mean, if we look at also the Samy territory, then it is mainly in the Samy traditional areas where where we have biodiversity and unmodified natural landscape, which is our cultural landscape. So at least in practice, we have been guarding these areas and protecting them through our traditional use. So in that way, when we are working towards protecting our traditional livelihoods and their way of using our territories, then we are also working towards protection of biodiversity. Well, I have myself been involved in the Convention on Biological Diversity and the Indigenous Forum on Biodiversity. And I would say that our voice is heard in this this convention, which is the main global instrument for conservation of life on Earth. So I would say that we do have a voice we are heard and we were quite well included in the in the long term action plan that was just adopted in Montreal in December. So I do think that there was a paradigm shift in global conservation discourse, which for the first time at this level recognizes the role that Indigenous peoples have in protecting life on Earth and also the recognition of Indigenous peoples territorial rights was noted. And its role to conservation. And this of course is linked to our participation in decision making or or in other words that Indigenous communities should be supported that they can conserve their areas in a way that they see fit. So this is something that was rather well acknowledged in the Montreal Biodiversity framework. So now we are in a position that we have to see that this recognition is actually implemented. When the EU decided on the Green Deal, have the Sami people been involved in the creation? I'm asking that because you are after all the only recognized Indigenous people in the European Union. Yes. So to my knowledge, there wasn't much involvement in the preparation of the Green Deal. So now we are in a position that we have to look at the different aspects of the Green Deal and see where there might be challenges regarding Sami rights and our culture. And also how can we ensure that the implementation of the Green Deal is considered of our rights and also that it would be allowing us to develop our society in a way that we consider fit so that it wouldn't be only developing the majority society. But also that our culture and our traditions would be recognized and that we would also be fully included in the whole process of green shift and unsustainable development. And what would help the Sami people to be more included? Because I assume here that it's quite a struggle. Yes. Well, when it comes to the European Union, then we are calling for having a more permanent solution for Sami representation in Brussels. So currently we are the only nation that isn't represented in the EU and that is living in the territories of the member states. So of course, I mean, currently we have annual dialogue with the EU Commission and we have more of a temporary solutions. We can have some events where we meet, but we are calling for a more permanent solution where the Sami interests would be taken into account when preparing these kind of policies that do have an impact on a Sami life as well. So we have just released our EU's strategy or it was an independent think tank that looked through the challenges and the possibilities towards the European Union and what we need to develop. So yeah, I think there is still a long, long ways to go for having a Sami presence in the EU. But you are recognised by the European Union or have I got that wrong? Well, I wouldn't say that there is official recognition, but while the nation states have where Sami live, they have in one way or another recognised Sami as Indigenous peoples and we do think that the EU should also have a more formal recognition of Sami as Indigenous people. So we don't think that is sufficiently recognised yet. So from my understanding, it begins and ends for the Sami people with holding the rights to your own land. Yes, that is of course the basis of us as a nation. I mean, we are Indigenous to Sami land and that is what we have to have also in the future is land for our culture and our livelihoods. So yes, I would say you are right that this Sami struggle, so to speak, is often rooted in the land, but also has many different aspects to it. The governance of land, but also the governance of culture and how our culture is either visible or invisible. But yeah, I mean, colonialism in general, it is about land and taking land from other peoples. So that is definitely at the core of this issue. Yeah, I mean, talking colonialism from listening to you. Why don't you have your own land? Because you have been there long before anybody else. Why? Yes, well, I mean, we are rather small numbered people living in a territory that is wider than Germany. And we are also, let's say we're nonviolent or at least we haven't had like organized military structure or anything of the sort. And I think that also comes from the fact that we are living in such a vast area with great distances. So, well, while our neighboring nations have slowly come to our territories through history, then there hasn't been a way of stopping them, at least not in violent terms. So we have been in that sense in a marginalized position. And that's how we became to be divided by four nation states. And of course, these are very huge structures that is very difficult to impact. But it has never really been a goal either since the Sami movement has borne the movement to ensure Sami rights. And there has never been really an aim of having a state because of the fact that we live in such a vast area. And we are minority almost in all of our traditional territories nowadays. So that's why we are looking more towards the international law and ways of recognizing indigenous rights within the nation states. So ensuring certain rights to our traditional territories and livelihoods and governance of our own culture. So this has been our approach. You just mentioned it. Indigenous people make up a small minority of the world's population. Yet they have played a critical role in sustaining the world as we know it. There are more and I look all those numbers up. There are more than 476 million indigenous people in the world spread across 90 countries and representing 5,000 different cultures living in all geographic regions. So much of our world's non-commercially exploited land and many of its remaining mineral and forest resources, major rivers, fossil fuels and sources of renewable energy are found in or around the territories of indigenous communities. Aslak, what would the Sami people do with the resources if you held the rights to your own land? Well, I would think that in many, many cases it would be continuing the ways that we have been living. Of course, considering that we are also modernized people and of course, while technology changes and is being adopted, then of course that does have an impact on the livelihood. So I would say that we would continue working with livelihoods that are based to the land and to the water and that would be in balance with production capacity to put it in those terms. I would say that in many instances it would mean protection from losing our territories because that is in many cases the big challenge for us that we don't have the right to our land so that we might be losing them. Like in the case of the wind power development and how those projects are rapidly increasing in the Sami territories too. So I would say that protecting our traditional use against other competing forms of land use that would be one level of protection that would come from if we would be able to govern our territories. Aslan, you're also a young man, so what impact has all this on the younger Sami generation? Well, it's not the very easy situation that we are in. And of course when you find yourself and your people in a position where we have very limited possibility to impact our own life and our own future, then this of course brings insecurity regarding future. If a lot of our life is dependent on decisions of others and priorities of others, then this is of course, well being in a marginalized position is not obviously ideal to put it in those terms. And definitely this is something that Sami have been working with throughout the colonial history and present. So it's by no means a new phenomena. So of course we are not giving up and we are continuing the work that our previous generations have been building this basis for us also when it comes to the work on indigenous rights and the recognition of that. But of course when we come to the current situation, then of course we have never faced such grave changes as we see the climate changing year by year and accelerating. So we are really in a position where a lot of what used to be the norm is disappearing or at least is being strongly questioned if you can continue in a similar way or if, for example with the case of the Salomon stocks, it was rather rapid that the stocks declined so heavily. So I don't think anybody saw it 10 years ago that we would be in a situation where the whole fishery was closed. So we are really going through some ground breaking changes at the moment. So definitely this is something that is bringing a lot of worry when we see that something that is the better rock of our traditional existence in an area that can change completely. So of course we are looking towards the unknown and of course that is quite big challenge. Looking into the unknown and from the work you are doing in the council, where do you see the biggest support for the Sami people? Is it government? Is it business? Is it NGOs? Is it society? Well I would say that there have been positive developments in many different forums like the recognition of indigenous peoples rights has developed very much in the past few decades. And also I would say that the knowledge of the majority society in the countries where we live, it is slowly increasing so people are becoming more aware of the Sami and of our situation and of the lack of recognition of our rights. So I would say that there is a rather strong or growing support for the Sami cause also in the majority society. Be that through the civil society or just grass root movement and building up alliances with different actors. I would say that in one way there is growing recognition of the status of Sami people and how the colonial history also impacts our contemporary situation. So I would say that by this kind of growing interest and knowledge then hopefully things will start changing. Aslan, you talked about building alliances and from where I am standing you are doing that very successfully. Just recently you have been in Davos as the president of the Sami council and as far as I remember you spoke about several important topics like unpacking the polar crisis and indigenous people and trade and at a dinner party. You talked about being the custodian of the planet. So you and the topic were clearly very highly regarded and you were introduced by Prince Abbey of Monaco and by the director of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research. Did all of that give you some hope for the future? It was a very long question. I know. Yes. Well, as I said, being in Davos it was a different kind of arena that I am used to. So as I felt while there that I am speaking more or less about the same issues that we speak in whatever arenas we are in. But the audience was quite different. But I mean it was of course good to be visible in this kind of arena and as I mentioned then a lot of people did say that they learned a lot and even as you mentioned that you were not that familiar with the Sami people before that. And I think that was the case for a lot of people that still many in Europe are not aware that there are indigenous people in Europe. So I would say it was good that we had visibility. I mean we were eight indigenous peoples representatives in Davos this year and never has there been so many. I think there have been a couple indigenous people before. But I think it's good that we are visible also in this kind of arenas that debate global issues from the economic perspective and bringing this human rights discourse into that for us. Well, I would say it's quite important. Was it let's put it that was a bit challenging because your message throughout is how to keep the planet and your life sustainable. The business from the message from the business side was is there an opportunity for growth? How can again we make things bigger, better, greener whatsoever? Was it kind of a yeah clash? Yeah, well, I would say that yes, because I mean when the ice turned towards the the Arctic homelands of indigenous peoples and it is often through the economic perspective and thinking how can we benefit from these areas. And when we look at the status of the world and the direction that we are moving towards, then we don't think that growth is what will solve the global crisis. But it's on the contrary growth has been the cause of it. So I think this kind of questioning the approach, the economic approach is also part of this discussion because yeah, we don't think that you can solve everything through growth because the planet is limited and the resources are limited. And yeah, especially when we're still in a society that is fueled by fossil fuels, and then we know that this is not sustainable. So, yeah, I think we are in a global crisis where we have to look at the system wide questions and really start questioning the foundations of how the global society is constructed and how the global economy is constructed because if that's not sustainable, then by definition it means that it cannot be sustained. So we cannot only look at growth as indicator of the so-called health of economy because if we know that the growth is based on unsustainable practices, then we know that this growth is going to stop and go into decline. So we think that finding more of a balance also in the economy is very necessary. In my experience, the struggle today is multi-layered and it is so deep. We have economies who want to create sustainable systems and they are looking simultaneously for land and remaining resources which don't belong to them, which are mainly occupied by indigenous groups and communities. So leaders, business leaders, political leaders want you to get stronger, you are getting stronger and at the same time they feed their obsession with growth. What, as like, would be the best case scenario for you? I think that we have a very good basis on the work that those before us have been building this rather good recognition of indigenous peoples' rights in the international legal framework. I think this is a good basis to work towards. So I don't think we are in a position where we would have to come up with very new ideas because we think that the basis is there. For example, if we look at what is a major achievement in the indigenous peoples' rights movement is the adoption of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which is kind of an overlook of what kinds of rights indigenous peoples have in the international legal framework. So we do think that this declaration and the rights that are guaranteed for us in international law, that is what we are still working towards, is actually getting these rights recognized in the national legislation. So we think that we would really get quite far just by actually implementing the binding agreements that the nation states have agreed to through international instruments. If we look at the sheer numbers, if all indigenous people in the world together, you are 476 million people, the European Union has fewer people, so you are a big number. Is there anything, let's say, European citizens can do to help? Yeah, that's a good way of reflecting the size of the indigenous people globally. And of course the European Union is a major player globally. It has a lot of impact on what kind of policies the EU has when it comes to trade, what kind of safeguards the EU puts in place that have an impact on indigenous peoples. To take one example, something we reacted to in December was when the European Parliament was deciding on the agreement on deforestation or deforestation free products. So from this policy, the indigenous rights aspects were watered down. So while there was mention of the right to free prior and informed consent before forests are felled in indigenous territories, then this rights reference was removed from the policy. So this is one example of how the European Union also has responsibility as a global player to ensure that their big market and the demand isn't fueling human rights violations and loss of indigenous lands and territories. So these kinds of global safeguards having a policy towards implications of over trade to indigenous peoples and I think these kind of mechanisms need to be prioritized. But you had also told the story about the Disney blockbuster and how you made the Sami people being really hurt here. Can you tell us a story? Yeah, that's of course changing the subject. But yeah, I did bring that as one example. So this was in the other panel where I was talking about indigenous people and trade. So I wanted to highlight it as one example of a different kind of collaboration where a global entertainment company engaged in dialogue with the Sami people because we had approached them after the frozen one was released. And there were some Sami elements there. Then when we came to know that they are working on frozen two, then we didn't take contact to them to Disney and said that if you want to do this properly, then the only way of doing that is by doing it in cooperation with us. And we did also present our position that our cultural expressions are our collective property and you cannot use our property without us, without consulting with us how to do that. So I think that is a good example of how we managed to work together with them in global company on ensuring that Sami culture was respectfully represented in this very successful animation film. And also we came to an agreement of how to ensure that there is benefit sharing taken in place because if you're using something that is our intellectual property, then we also need to have some of the benefits arising. So for example, then we got the frozen two in the Sami language. We got the feature film in northern Sami or there are a couple different Sami languages actually in the movie. So that was part of the benefit sharing agreement. And also having Sami interns going to Disney offices. So this was, I would say, first time that such a global company comes to an agreement with indigenous people on ways of using cultural property. So I think that was a good example of respectful and very successful cooperation because I believe it was the third most watched movie in 2019. So definitely what is it says. Do you know the reason why they didn't consult you before making the movie? Well, I think obviously they knew about us because they were based on elements from the movie. They were based on elements from our culture. But I would say that there is still a great lack of knowledge on immaterial rights of indigenous peoples. A lot of companies do fail to respect indigenous peoples rights to their cultural elements. So we think that this is definitely something where there is a grave lack of knowledge and recognition that we are actually the owners of our cultural expressions and that they are not free to use and take. And I mean, this kind of work has been ongoing in the international field for more than 20 years on coming up with a global agreement on how to protect the intangible cultural heritage and expressions. But even if this hasn't been fruitful in the international field, then it remains to be our position that we are the owners of our cultural expressions and that you have to involve us if you want to use some of those. So yeah, I think this need of recognizing these rights and coming up with mechanisms on how can you respectfully engage the indigenous people who own their expressions, then this is something that needs to be developed. And you were also talking about alliances before getting together on a global stage with all indigenous groups. Is there already exchange going on or is everybody more retreating to their own areas? No, there is a lot of cooperation going on on a global level, like in the World Intellectual Property Organization, there is indigenous caucus and there are people who have been working there for more than 20 years with these issues. But as I know that it's quite a slowly moving process. So even if there are no outcomes yet, then I would say that the formulation of positions and considering different ways of respecting those rights that this has been evolving. But yeah, definitely there is a global indigenous cooperation with this issue of cultural expressions. We have heard now the whole story about the Sami people and a bit about indigenous people and how the world reacts to it. If you look at it as a president of the Sami Council, what are the three most important issues for the Sami people to be resolved in the next three years? And what alliances do you need most? Yeah, well, I would say that this boom of green industries in the Sami territories is something that we will have to address in the coming years in a sufficient way. And the core message there is that sustainable development has to be also culturally sustainable and recognizing our right to develop our culture. So development cannot come at our expense. So yeah, this coming up with safeguards regarding the green shift is definitely one priority. Of course, we have been touching on many different topics here. So I mean, one aspect that we also want to see is this recognition of our right as a people. And this is of course very like a wide concept that we're talking about or wide implications. So we are talking about, as I mentioned, the respect on international law on indigenous peoples rights. So coming up with ways of how do we safeguard that on the national level? How do we make sure there are mechanisms for effective negotiation with the Sami rights holders? I think this national implementation of the Sami peoples right to self-determination is something that is not near sufficient at the moment in the countries where Sami live. So definitely this is something that needs to be strengthened in the spirit of the Supreme Court rulings that we briefly touched upon. They do recognize that Sami have the right to culture. So how do you actually ensure that? So yeah, maybe I'll just highlight this on a quite a general level. So but we are coming to the end now and this podcast is heard in 73 countries. Do you have a message for us? And what can we do to support you and the almost 500 million indigenous people in the world? Yeah, well, as I talked about the importance of building alliances. So if you see a campaign on support of indigenous peoples rights or how an indigenous community is working to protect their traditional territories or their cultural expressions or in general their property, then you can support these kinds of local movements. And in a broader sense as we talked regarding the European Union, I think it's important to require that there are safeguards in place on respecting indigenous peoples rights. And this is also important in the market system. So ensuring that the products that you use are produced in a way that recognizes the rights of indigenous people. So I would say these kinds of things that should be a theme in election campaigns or should be an issue that is asked from politicians like what is their position on indigenous peoples rights. And yeah, this would also help us to have visibility and highlighting the need to safeguard our rights so that we could actually continue guarding our territories and our ecosystems and living or practicing our traditions in those territories. So this kind of knowledge and support is needed. Well, on this note, as like all I can say is thank you for your time, for your story, telling us your struggle, the progress of the Sami people and what's needed to create a fairer and sustainable world. I wish you all the best and lots of energy and hopefully some of our listeners will pick up on the idea and create additional support. So thanks, Aslak Holmberg, president of the Sami Council in Finland. Yeah, thank you. You've been listening to a special English edition of Dagwasa Neustadt, a German podcast series by Zabilla Baden, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who are committed to making our world smarter, greener and fairer. For more information, please visit www.zabillabaden.com and the official site of the World Economic Forum. Thank you.