Stephen A Smith: Inside the mind of sports media’s loudest voice

This is a big deal. The only people I've let at my house is you and RC, Ryan Clark. So why did you let us in? I've respected your work for years, you know, and I see the interviews that you've done and what have you, and I was like, you know, I like them. Are we starting now? Momentarily. Okay. We were relatively poor, obviously, growing up. Hot water and heat were scarce. Rats and roaches, all of that stuff. You ever see people get shot at? One of my boys gunned down in the nightclub. I walked up to him, blew his head off. Your older brother, Basil, in what ways did he motivate you? My brother was like, he'll be a star at ESPN. I didn't go to his grave site until I got hired by ESPN. It took me 11 years. When my mother died, I felt like I lost everything. I never came close to killing myself. But I did not want to live. I don't take a lot of time off. Yeah, you ever think you work 330 days a year? Something like that? I, on average, 325 to 330 a year. And you're saying the DNC has looked at you. I would never be interested in any office but the presidency. What's your favorite interview you've ever done? what you mean like uh we start now start now uh what are we starting now uh momentarily okay yeah um my favorite piece that's been done on you over the years that's been done on me man i don't even that i don't even know um because a lot of the interviews that i do are live and it's like all right i'll show up on a breakfast club or i'll show up one I sat down with Hannity for the interview I've sat down with ABC I like the ABC one with Lizzie Davis it's all for me to say because and I don't spend a lot of time like for example you'll sit down and do this interview you'll sit down and do this interview would be and i'll watch it once yeah i'm done all right i see it i'm looking at it and everybody else looks at it and they judge and whatever and i'm like okay and i move forward yeah because i'm i'm pretty critical of myself from the standpoint of you know did i answer you know what did i say enough about it did i get my point across did the message that i once sent on a particular question that I do that. And I can't stand when I feel like I didn't answer a question completely. I don't like leaving stuff open for interpretation when it comes to what comes out of my mouth. It comes out of my mouth. Yeah, I said it. That's exactly what I meant. That's how I like to feel when I answer a question. I said exactly what I meant to say, as opposed to feeling like I left something out. And I don't, for the most part, I can't stand doing interviews that get edited i love when it's like you know i remember um years ago rich paul and them had asked me to come on the shop you know because lebron and i would tussle or whatever and um i was like sure under one condition no editing live what you see is what you get you know and so that's the kind of stuff that i would say yeah that's all it was and i'll the goal for today is to i'm going to try and touch on you know all aspects of your life just ask whatever you want i'm here i agree to the end i will you know likely uh touch on it if i don't in touch on the question i know how to not answer the question if i don't want to so it's all right um all right we're good you made it yeah down one piece of equipment though wow so luckily we uh rented it locally so um This is a big deal. The only people I've let in my house is you and RC, Ryan Clark. I don't let people in my house. I don't let people know where I live. I don't let people know none of that. So why did you let us in? I respected your work for years, you know, and I see the interviews that you've done and what have you. And I was like, you know, I like them. So it's cool. Oh, well, thank you. You remember? Vaguely, not the interview itself, but I remember talking to you when you were younger. and I was proud of you and I knew that you had a bright future because you knew what you wanted to do pretty early on. I can't believe it was eighth grade the first time I talked to you. Yeah. You were Philadelphia Inquirer. That's true. You were just kind of starting to take off. That's true. It is crazy how that applies. That was more than 20 years ago. I know. So I wanted to take you back to when you were a kid growing up. You're the youngest of six. Yep. What was that dynamic like? And I know your siblings used to give you trouble for what they called you a mistake. They always used to laugh. They always used to tease. You were a mistake. You were by accident. Mommy and Daddy weren't planning on you. And my mother used to snap back at all of them. Every time she heard them saying that, she said he was the only one who was on purpose. All of you were a mistake. You know, that's what she used to tell them all the time because my mother and father, they had had four daughters and a son. And, you know, they really, really wanted another son. So they gave it one last shot, you know, four years after my youngest sister, Carmen, was born. And so big gap from the oldest. Yeah. Linda is 10 years older than me. Basil was nine years older than me. All of us eight years old is eight years older than me. Abigail is six years older than me. Carmen is four years older than me. And then it was a break and they wanted to get one last shot at having a son. And I always joked about it. I said, look, you hit the jackpot. You know, I used to joke around like that or whatever. And they're like, oh, Lord. You know, so it was just. But growing up, you know, as the youngest of six, my brother left home. The minute he turned, after he graduated from high school at age 17, he instantly went into the military. He wanted no part to stay in the Hollis, Queens. He wanted out of the house because it was a congested household, obviously, not just because of the six of us as children were our parents. but my mother was mother theresa you had an aunt an uncle a cousin anybody that was in any kind of trouble my mother let you come stay with us so there were times where we had 11 12 13 people in the house with one working bathroom and all of that stuff because my mother was very very generous and we'll get into that a little bit later too but your sister was telling me how that in and of itself would create tension between your mom and dad because he did not like he didn't like that He didn't like that, and my mother just had a heart of gold. And truth be told, we didn't like it because of the congestion, but we dealt with it. You know, we were relatively poor, obviously, growing up. Hot water and heat were scarce at times. Hot water, heat, electricity, food, definitely the whole bit. So, you know, we grew up, rats and roaches, all of that stuff, you name it. You had your own version of 2% milk. That's right. You'd hide cereal. Yep, sugar sandwiches, yeah. And you and your siblings, though, as I understand it, were kind of always hungry, almost borderline starving. Yeah. I think I heard you say. Like, give a little color to that. Well, my father, unfortunately, had another family. And so because he had another family, that's where he took his money. And so as a result, my mother had to put herself through nursing school, get an associate's degree, and ultimately worked to take care of the six of us. Until my brother left, when he left, it was still five of us. Even though my sister Linda was older, she worked and she would help out my mother more so than my father did. Became head nurse at Queens General Hospital? Queens General Hospital, second largest hospital in the state of New York. My mother ultimately became an assistant head nurse there, which was a very, very big deal, but it took her years to do that. And so there were plenty of days and nights where we didn't have any heat in the house. Food was scarce. We used to pray that my Uncle Frankie would come over on a Sunday because every time he came over, my mother's brother, Uncle Frankie, he passed away from cancer in like 2006. But he used to come over to the house all the time, and we used to pray that he would come over because whenever he came over, he would take us to what was called the farmer's market. Gallup. Which was down, that's right. It was down the block about a mile, a mile and a half away, and he would fill up the refrigerator so we'd have stuff to eat and a drink. And so that was a really, really big deal. You know, I remember when he passed away because, you know, he was very he was he was a gruff individual. Like he would be like, you know, shut the F up. You know, he talked to us any old kind of way he wanted to. But he loved us. But that's how he was. That's how he spoke. And you couldn't take it personal. And, you know, my sister Linda did not like that at all. So she didn't mess with him. And when he passed away, you had people that had attitude and was like, you know, because he didn't have medical insurance. It's only all he had was the VA. There was no way to really pay for his funeral or whatever. And I jumped up. I paid for everything. And the reason why is that I remembered all of those times. We stood there on a Saturday morning praying that he would come through because we knew if he came through, he would fill up the refrigerator for us. and it was countless Sundays he came through and did just that right in the nick of time when we were hungry, our stomach was aching, and we was hoping for just a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or a sugar sandwich or anything. We was hoping we'd have anything. And so many times he did that that when he passed away, it was a struggle for everybody to come up with the money. And I was like, I got it. This is the least I could do. He looked out at key moments in our life, and I never forgot that. Which had to be a great feeling, much like after you signed your Quite Frankly deal, you go tell your mom, I got this now. But there was no moment greater than that. That, to this day, is the greatest moment of my life. Really? Oh, without question. What do you remember from that? My mother had retired. But even though she had retired, she was working at the Police Athletic League. running the center and running bingo games and stuff like that to put extra money in her pocket because all she had to live on was her pension. And I wasn't making enough money to like say, hey, I got the house for you. I'm going to buy you a new house at the time or anything like that. But I was making enough money to pay the mortgage and I was making enough money to pay for vacations. And I knew that's why she was working at the PAL Center. And so she, when I signed that contract, first thing I did, I signed it at the ABC building on 66 near Columbus Avenue. And the first thing I did was drive over the Queensborough Bridge onto the LIE, connected to the Grand Central Parkway, drove to Hollis. And I didn't even, you know, I didn't even go to the house. I knew where she was. And I drove straight to the Police Athletic League. And I walked up in there and I knew the person that was running the center. And I said, my mother will not be working here any longer. I said, well, come on, Mommy, it's time to go. And she was shocked, like, what's going on? What's going on? And I told her, I said, I just signed this contract. You're not working anymore. And she never worked again. What about retelling that story still touches you even today? Of course it does. It's my mom. She's the greatest human being I've ever known. no one has ever done more for me than she has. She's the only person that I've ever looked at on this earth who loved me unconditionally. You know, my sisters love me dearly, you know, but, you know, your siblings, your buttheads, your fight, you do all of this other stuff. But you know they love you, you know you love them. But there's nothing like the love that you get from a mama. And my mother was that person. You know, no matter how rough she could be on me at times, holding me accountable, being demanding, making sure she stayed on me, and the whole bit is unorthodox, even though it was in an unorthodox way, rather. I was a mama's boy, no doubt about it. You know, my mother was my everything. You know, the sun shined and sat with her. There was no way on earth that she was going to be in need. I remember one of the highlight moments that I had later on is that my sisters would talk about Christmas shopping for her and stuff like that and they'd get something here or there whatever and they'd just be like just you know ain't no need to get her that and leave at that that's expensive you know we know steve gonna get it that steve gonna get anything she wants anyway and they were right she want a crew she don't get crew she want a mink coat she don't get a mink coat she want a ring she don't get a ring i don't give a damn what it was whatever it was and i would deprive myself of whatever it is you know i'm in my home right now and you know just look at this home that i have a home that I never dreamed I would have, a home that she could only imagine, it comes with pain because she's not here. And I know how much it meant to her being a West Indian woman from St. Thomas, Virgin Islands. She loved the pool. She loved the ocean. She loved warm weather. She loved that stuff. And it's what I have available to me now. And, you know, with the success that I've been blessed and fortunate enough to reap, I probably wouldn't have this. Because the first thing I would have done was, what do you want? And if I had to sacrifice having this and live in an apartment just so she could have this, everybody knows I would have done it. And it was her that was working 16-hour days, six, seven days a week to make sure seven days a week siblings were taken care of as best she possibly could and then some. the neighborhood you grew up in correct me if I'm wrong but what I understand was it wasn't necessarily bad initially but then drugs um no it was always bad it was always I mean it was always bad I mean the streets are the streets it's just that you know um you learn to deal with it and you stayed away like I was I was on two third and Hollis Avenue so right up the block was drugs and stuff like that it wasn't on the corner you had to walk up to the block but still in all you You go to the deli. You go to the grocery store. You go anywhere. It was right there for you if you wanted to get yourself in that kind of trouble. So it was a lot of drugs. Not that violent. I mean, the violence occurred to me. You ever get, like, shot at? No, not me. Not me. The drug dealers were my friends. They looked out for me. They protected me. As a matter of fact, they had a lot to do with me being safe enough because they knew I wanted to play basketball and I wanted to earn a basketball scholarship. And so I'd go out there, shoot two, three hundred jump shots a day going into the night when sundown came. And it was understood. The drug dealer was like, don't bother him. Don't touch him. And they'd walk over to me and they say, all right, it's time to go. You got work to do. You got to get up out of here. And they said, you know, you're from the streets, but you're not of it. You ever see people get shot at? Of course. A couple of my friends got killed. That you saw? Oh, yeah. I've seen a couple of people get gunned down. I've seen some of them get killed. I see somebody get shot. I remember one time one one of the guys that I grew up with. I wouldn't say that he was a close friend, but we knew one another. He was joking around. Arguing with this guy and they were making jokes towards one another about each other's mother who could tell the best jokes or whatever. And this one guy got the better of the other guy. The other guy goes up to him, shoots him in both kneecaps. Said, I told you to stop with me, drop the gun and walked away. That's the kind of stuff that I grew up seeing. You know, I grew up seeing, you know, one of my boys gunned down in the nightclub. I walked up to him, blew his head off, you know, just because he didn't like him. And what do you do when you're in that situation? Well, unfortunately, you know, you know, you don't like to say these things, but you know what? You keep your mouth shut. You know, people talk about snitching, no snitching or whatever. But, you know, you see something like that, you open your mouth, you might be next. And so that's the kind of environment we grew up in. Again, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't pervasive to the point where it happened all the time. But it happened enough where you knew who you were dealing with. You saw, you know, one of my boys, his house got shot up, you know, and his little sister, five years old, got killed because they were after him. You know, because it was a territorial battle. You know, it was my territory here. I want to be here. This is what you're doing. You're on this block. Next thing you know, they roll up in your house and they're driving by and they shoot through the window and they killed this five-year-old sister. This is the kind of stuff that I grew up seeing, you know, not, again, not every day, not every week, but it's happened. There's a few dead bodies that, you know, was around us and stuff like that, and you kind of learn what to avoid. You got to learn when to speak, when not to speak, you know, who to speak to and when. You know, you see 5-0 and stuff like that. You see and get seen talking to the police, you know, that's not a good look for you. When you're growing up in the streets and you see some of the things that we've seen. So all of those things are things that contribute to your mindset, what you see, how you communicate with folks, what you're willing to convey, what you're willing to stay away from, stuff like that. And I was the kind of person that I stayed away from all of that. And basketball was my haven. And that was going to be my question. I was talking to your close buddy Cardell the other day. How did you guys avoid getting caught up in that? Well, working because we work after school jobs and stuff like that. In my case, it was also playing basketball. So it was the combination of having stuff to do. I didn't have idle time to get involved in other stuff. And not only that. And that was you doing it or you're like mom? Well, it's a combination. It's a combination because when you have a mother like I had who's on your back at every turn, you know, and let you know. My mother used to tell me, you're going to go, I will never come visit you. I will never come visit you if you go to jail. She used to sell me that stuff all the time because she was letting me know there's a standard that I have to live up to. And you know what? I don't care how much we're struggling. You're going to obey the law and you're going to be a law abiding citizen. You're going to be a civilized contributor to our society. That's what you're going to do. Otherwise, I'm not going to be a part of your life. She let me know that from a very early age. Is it true that you actually still remember hearing your dad tell your mom that you're not that smart? Yeah, of course I do. Got left back in the fourth grade. Came home, and it was after I got left back in the third grade, but then I got promoted to my right grade that following September. So that June I got left back. I went to summer school, got promoted to the fourth grade that September, went through school from September to the following June to the fourth went through the fourth grade got left back again and this time held back the whole year and it was then that he sat there he stood there in the kitchen while I was on the back porch and they didn't see me and you know he told my mother he's he's not that smart just accept it and get over it he's not going to be much you just have to accept that and my mother turned around and saw me looking and she was aghast because she was like, you know, she knew I heard my own father say that about me. And then he looked and saw me as well, and he just turned around and shrugged his shoulders and walked away. Really? Yeah, he didn't care. Do you still remember that feeling? I always remember that feeling because those are the kind of things that motivate me. That's why, you know, I don't, you know, when people think about competition or people think about pressure and things of that nature. Everybody has their thing that drives them, that motivates them. That's one of my driving forces, you know, for my father to think that little of me at the time. He didn't always feel that way about me. He later grew to respect me once he saw what I was accomplishing and whatever. But he did nothing to help me get to that point. And because he did nothing to help me get to that point, and he was a driving force of motivation because of his doubts, you know it's something that I always held on to and so as a result you know your sister said the same thing what that that uh it was your dad's and your desire to kind of prove that you could be something that really but I told my mother that day I said he doubted the wrong dude he doubted the wrong dude I said you'll see we'll see and I told her that that day he said it when I was in fourth grade how long did you think you were stupid for i think it was until i was in the seventh grade um when mr caravan my seventh grade teacher it was open it was parents uh teachers conference night and uh we went up there and he looked at my mother he was my social studies teacher and he said to my mother your son has never let go of the fact that he got left back he thinks he's not smart I'm here to tell you he's wrong and I was sitting there with my head down like this until he said he's wrong he's smart I was like I stepped up and I looked I sat up I looked at him and he looked at my mother she was sitting to my right and he looked at my mother he was sitting across from death staring at her he said Stephen thinks he's dumb because he doesn't know a lot of things what he doesn't realize is that he didn't hear it because he drifts your son gets bored very easy and so what happens is he'll drift and he'll daydream about something and you'll ask him what you just said and it could be a room full of people and he could tune everybody out he has that ability if he's bored if he's uninterested in the conversation and what you're saying it could be 50 people in a room with a whole bunch of noise about a particular subject and your son has the ability to not hear anything because he drifts that much he said but when you pique his interest and you find something that he's interested in that intrigues him, he's a totally different person. He said, find out what your son is interested in and let him do that. And you will have a star on your hands. That's exactly what he said. And when he said that, I was, and my mother looked at me and she was like, well, he loves sports, you know? And so I'm reading stuff and not really comprehending when I'm reading newspapers or reading books for homework and stuff like that. But anything that I read about sports, I picked up just like that. It was easy. And they were like, you know, you do get it. You do comprehend. You do understand. You just wasn't interested in that stuff. So you've got to force yourself to be interested in the stuff that you're not interested in to do what you have to do so you can do what you want to do. And that line I got from Denzel Washington, that was later. But he used to say that. It just goes to show you the impact of good teaching and the value of just having somebody to believe in you. Not to mention all of that was compounded by the fact that, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you had undiagnosed dyslexia. That's what they said. Yeah, that's what they later discovered. My sister and a family friend and whatever doctor friend they had. It was like, that's dyslexic. I mean, he's not really is so much stuff that's convoluted that he's not picking up. So my sister, Linda, who's a valedictorian and quite brilliant at everything she did, she sat down with me. She's like, here's what you're missing. Here's why. And so one of the things that also used to derail me was that if I didn't understand a word in a sentence, I would just lose everything. So what I did was I would stop and I would look up the word in its context and made sure it was utilized properly. and I would not continue to read until I knew that word that I didn't want, that I didn't understand a few minutes earlier. I was just stopping my tracks because I hated the thought of not being able to comprehend and understand. And I'm 58 years old and I still do that to this very day. And that was before ChatGPT and Google. There you go. Exactly. So it's just a habit that I have that I like. I like. I love it now. before it used to derail me, used to, you know, just compromise my confidence in myself and whatever. Now, and it's been this way for decades, I get excited when I'm doubted. I get excited when people question my resolve and question my ability and stuff like that. It actually makes me smile. I'm like, I'm better when they do that. I can't stand when everybody, he's so smart, he's so this, He showed that. He's great. Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that doesn't do it for me because it makes me feel like I've arrived and I don't want to feel like I've arrived. But speaking of people who believed in you before you arrived, you know, regardless of if you want to feel that way, your older brother, Basil, in what ways did he motivate you? Basel was a beautiful human being, power, positive thinking. You know, Dale Carnegie and the books that he wrote and stuff like that. I mean, Basel was into all of that. You know, he was a road salesman with travel and, you know, was making six figures, selling magazines and other things. He became a manager and had 15 to 20 people working under him and all of that stuff. and my brother, he actually used to get on my nerves with it because if I tried to come to him about doubts I may have had, questions I may have had about myself or whatever, he wasn't hearing it. Didn't want to hear it. My mother had a belief in me, but I could go to her and say to her, well, I don't know if I could do this. She was like, yes, you can. Sit down, study, and you'll overcome it. You'll see. That's what she would say. My brother, on the other hand, was like, there's no reason for doubts. There's nothing for you to doubt. I don't want to hear it. That's negative. Get away from me with that negativity in your voice. I don't want to hear it. You can do it and you will do it. That was my brother. And he's telling you you're going to be the biggest sports personnel. You're going to be the second coming. He passed away. He passed away in October of 1992. Car accident. And we were together for the last time in Georgetown. He had traveled to Georgetown, and he was in Georgetown living there for a month. And he told me to come see him. I was at Winston-Salem State. I was working. I was working. Actually, I graduated, but I was working in the area for the Greensboro News and Record at the time. And he was in Maryland. He told me to drive up to come see him. And I drove up to come see him and was telling him the challenges, working for the Greensboro News and Record as an editorial assistant, you know, doing stuff. On my own, you know, Pop Warner Sports, high school prep sports, all of this stuff. In my off time, I wasn't getting paid for it, but I was building a portfolio and stuff like that. So I just don't know what's going to happen. And my brother was like, you're going to be a star at ESPN. You're going to be the biggest star in sports broadcasting. Mark it down. It's going to happen. He said, you just got to believe it because the only person in your way is you. and he would tell me that which is why when he died two months later you know I didn't go to his gravesite until I got hired by ESPN it took me 11 years to get to ESPN because I had made it my personal mission that when I went to see him it would be to let him know I did it I did what you that I was going to do. And it took me 11 years. But in that 11 years, I went from an editorial assistant to a high school sports writer, to a backup college writer, to a college writer, to a backup NBA writer, to an NBA writer, to an NBA columnist, to becoming the 21st African American in this country's history to be named a general sports columnist. And that was step one. but then in that was March of 2003 and then October of 2003 is when ESPN hired me so when ESPN hired me the general sports columnist position in March and then ESPN that same year that October I had achieved what he said I achieved and then I went to his gravesite and you know in Yonkers, New York. And I remember that, uh, I think that's the hardest. I think that's the hardest I've ever cried in my life. With the exception of my mother passing away, because it was like I held it all in, you know, it was like when he passed away, I eulogized him. I gave his eulogy and stuff like that. And then from that point forward, I just used to talk to myself, used to talk to him, used to talk about what he had aspired for me or whatever, but to actually achieve it, to pull it off, to do exactly what he said I would do, that was a big, big moment for me. What was the feeling being there that day, kind of sharing with him the achievement? Well, it came full circle because my dad doubted me, but he never did. And it was a combination of me proving my dad to be able to be a liar when it came to me. And validating my brother and all the things that he said I was going to do and to be at his grave site and to know that he believed in me. And I came through. I validated what he said. I didn't give up because there was a lot of roadblocks, a lot of trials and tribulations working in corporate America. You got people. Everybody's not your cheerleader. Everybody's not the mentor, you know, to have the obstacles that were placed in front of me. And for me to overcome all of that to achieve what he said I was going to achieve. It was just it was a deep thing for me. And it was like I'm telling you, I don't I don't think I've ever cried like that. I didn't cry like that at his funeral. But that day, it was like, it was cathartic. You know, I just, I realized at that moment that I held all of this in for those 11 years. And I was finally able to, it was a tremendous, tremendous weight that was off my shoulders. What's the connectivity to your brother's passing and you not celebrating your birthday for so long? Well, I just miss him. You know, it's, you know, one of the things that I have to I have to do a better job of when it comes to funerals, for example. It's not about you. It's about them. And for the longest time. It was always about my brother. You know, when somebody passed away or whatever, it would I would go to a dark place because that person's loss had me thinking about who I lost. because I was very, very close to my brother. And to lose him, there was a palpable level of misery that would kick in, and my birthday did that for me. We lost him right before my birthday, but the only time the funeral could happen was on my birthday. So we buried him on my birthday. And because of that, that's what I thought. I thought about that. I never thought about anything else. And that's why, you know, when my birthday came, it was never anything for me to celebrate. In what ways did therapy help with that? Therapy didn't come until after I lost my mother. The difference between my mother and, you know, listen, you love your siblings or whatever, but like I told you before, your mama's your mama. I've never known pain like that in my life. I cried every day for two years. And it was the first time in my life I knew I needed help. Because I remember, and I said this before, I remember one time, we're doing first take for ESPN. And I'm on the air with Max Kellerman and Molly. And there was a point where like for 60 seconds, he's talking. And I don't see him. And I don't hear him. And. I knew I was in trouble. Because my mother had passed away. This was months later. And. You know, it was unfair to him. It was unfair to Molly. It was unfair to the show. It was unfair to ESPN. I was trying to work through it. but it happened and it wasn't the first time that it happened. And I never knew when it was coming on, something would happen that had me thinking about my mother and that darkness that I alluded to with my brother. That was the pain of losing him. But when my mother died, I felt like I lost everything. I never came close to killing myself, but I did not want to live I was just that miserable It was like you know I been I grew up in Hollis Queens My mother passed away in 2017. I've been to Hollis, Queens about five times. And four times I was forced because my sisters were there. I don't want to see that house because my mother passed away in the bed. they put her in a bag body bag took her out in a gurney I see it all to this moment I don't want to see it and so for me to see all of that it's very very painful and to be on TV in the moment you know you're forgetting something or you didn't hear something or whatever And it was like, and it was all on me and I couldn't tell anybody because I didn't think anybody would understand. And so I finally called my sister and I was like, I need help. I got to talk. I got to, I got to get some emotional help. I'm not, I'm not right. You know, and I was very, very volatile. You know, I didn't care about much, you know, but by this time I'm a dad. And that was the only thing I was caring about. It was like, because I got to be there for them. I got to be there for Samantha and Nyla because they didn't have to be here. It's my responsibility. And my mother would be appalled if I shirked my responsibility for any reason. And I knew that, too, and that kind of salvaged me as well. And I was very, very appreciative for ESPN because it took me a few weeks. But then I confessed to them, like, yo, this is what I'm going through, and this is what I'm doing, and here's why. and one of the things you might see me, critics will come at me, folks will clap back or whatever, whatever, but I will never be more grateful than when my mother passed away and those same critics said nothing, you know, because I was in a very, very, very vulnerable state and it was weeks that went by. Nobody bothered me. Nobody messed with me. There wasn't a critical word that was said about me, anything could have set me off. And it really, really showed me that no matter how despicable people can be from time to time, that people really, really showed their humanity at that particular moment in time. And I'll never forget it as long as I live because I was vulnerable. I was weak as hell. I was, I mean, you could shatter me with the slightest word when my mother passed away for a period of time because I just, I wasn't there. I just wasn't there. Your sister told me to bring this up, and this could be completely out of place. So forgive me. I have no idea the genesis of this. What's the deal with your mom and dad with the club on the car? The club is funny. It's the funniest story. I think it's one of the funniest stories we've ever had. My mother was the absolute queen of I told you so. Nobody lived on that more than her. If she gave you advice, if she gave you counseling, you didn't follow it. She was going to remind you until the cows came home. See, I told you, I told you, I told you that was my mother, the queen of I told you so. And so my father, absolutely hilarious. is he goes to the supermarket, and by this time he's old, he can't run, anything like that, and somebody stole his car, and literally he was coming out of the supermarket on Merrick Boulevard in Queens, New York, and he saw the guy driving away with his car, and he's like, hey, but there's nothing he can do, so my father gets home, and he's so ticked off, he's just mad, and you know, stole my car and my sister Arlen and Linda are sitting there with them and they're like these damn people it's a damn shame this society is the way that it is blah blah blah blah blah and my mother was in the kitchen and she stuck her head in the dining room where he was where he would sit where he had the grandfather chair in front of the tv and he would watch it and my mother would sit up there and she'd walk in and stick her head in and she says did you use the club and he looked at her and just ignored her now the club is one of those things you put over the stairwell lock the stairwell or whatever cost about 25 at the time and stuff like that you lock the stairwell so you can't stare you know you can't steer the car away whatever she bought him the club she bought him the club and she was asking him did you use the club and he ignored her She said, I said, did you use the club? And he interrupted the conversation with my sister, and he looked at her, and he said, Janet, no, I didn't use the club. And she said, see, I just used the club. You still have the club. And he just sucked his teeth, and he was so mad. The first time in my life I saw my father, if he could hit her, he would have. He never put his hands on my mother, but if he could hit her, he would have. because he was that upset that all she cared about, she bought him the club and you didn't use it. That's all she cared. She didn't care about his car. She didn't care about how upset he was. She didn't care about nothing. And so when she said, see, if you use a club, you still have your car. And she stormed out and walked away. We ran out the dining room laughing because that was what my mother would do. She would remind you that she told you so and you didn't listen and that's why you suffered. If you listen to her, you still have your car. That was her. Your sister, Carmen, told me your mom outshined your dad because of her hard work, which she feels made him feel kind of powerless as a man. Well, it's a combination of that. You know, my father was a very prideful West Indian man. And he wanted you to be able to have to depend on him. but he wasn't dependable. Whether it was cigarettes, it was gambling, it was drinking, it was all of the above. My father wasn't a dependable source as a man in the house. Why do you think he was the way he was? I think in part it was jealousy of my mother because my mother pulled herself up by her own bootstraps, got her nursing degree and made sure that the family wasn't going to fall apart. That somehow, someway we will scratch, we will skimp, we will save, we will do whatever we have to do, but we will survive and we will persevere and ultimately we will prosper. That was my mother. And remember, she got her degree. She put herself through school and got her degree after she had the six of us. and so to put herself in a position where she didn't really need him as much as she once did my belief was that he resented that and because of that he was like fine go do it on your own then and that's where it came from so my sisters would be primarily focused on his infidelity I was always focused on the fact that as a man you have a responsibility to take care of your family it don't matter you know i would prefer that you not do that any any person would prefer that their parents are not having that kind of of of fractious relationship but take care of your responsibilities take care of your family you know we shouldn't be having to worry about a roof over our head clothes on our back food on the table that's your responsibility as a man and so although he didn't throw the infidelity in your face a little bit didn't he like when he picked you up after you lived in Texas for a couple months? No, I went to Texas to see my brother for a month. Right. And then you come back to LaGuardia. And, you know, he picked me up at LaGuardia Airport, and some little kid jumps into my arms that I've never seen in my life, and then I see my father with a big smile on his face, and I'm like, what is this? He said, that's your brother. And that was the first time I found out that I had a little brother. and that was a big moment because obviously I wasn't happy about that. It was nothing against the kid. He's a little kid, for crying out loud. But it was clearly a violation of my mother. And, you know, when he dropped me off, he dropped me off at the corner. He told me, don't tell your mother that I picked you up with somebody because when he took me to the car, the mistress was in the car. and he said don't tell your mother and so I get home I walk up the block and my mother said I didn't see you I didn't see him drop you off I said she did dry he did drop me off and my mother out of nowhere asked me was he alone and I said yes and my mother died when I was 49 years old approaching my 50th birthday it was the only lie I ever told my mother in my life and never lied to my mother ever except that day because I knew what pain what pain it would cause her and I ate it and I go to school the next day I come home from school and my mother's in the bedroom crying My brother Basil had died in 1992. Okay. She didn't cry then. Strong as an ox. Very sad, but didn't cry. Was strong for the family the whole bit. The only time I ever saw my mother cry was that day. And I went in, I was like, mommy, what's the matter? And she wiped the tears from my eyes and she looked at me and she said, why'd you lie to me? And I was like, what are you talking about? She said, I asked you yesterday, was your father alone? Why'd you lie to me? And come to find out he had went and bragged about how his two sons had seen each other and embellished the story, acting like we were hugging one another and we were so happy to be together and all of this other stuff. And when he did that, he did it with the people back in St. Thomas who were family members. But his family was my mother's family because that's how tight his siblings were and his other relatives were with my mother. So they told her. And when they told her, she knew I had lied. And she described, painted this picture that he embellished. And I said, hold up. Wait a minute. I'm sorry that I lied to you. Here's what happened. And when I told her what happened and that I just couldn't bring myself to hurt her like that, she said, you've never lied to me before. don't lie to me now. I don't start anything new. And I said, yes, ma'am. And she said, I'm going to talk to your father. I will confront him tonight when he gets home. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. I will. I was 17. And I said, no, I have to handle this. I got a man up. And he came home that night and I asked him to come in the bedroom. And I said to him, this is what you did. And I said that was wrong. He said no it wasn't. You have a right to know your brother blah blah blah. I said that's not the point. The point is you got me involved hurting my mother. You want to do that you do that on your own. You don't use me to do it. And my father was a very very intimidating figure whose default position was to put his hands on you if you were his children and he felt that you were out of line. But I couldn't be scared because my relationship with my mother was on the line. That's how I viewed it. And nothing came before her. So I looked him dead in the face and I told him, I said, Dad, I love you. I said, but I need to tell you something. You don't come close to being as important as Mommy on any day. And if I got to choose between That kid and mommy It's going to be mommy If I got to choose between you and mommy It's going to be mommy That's the way it is And that's the way it's going to stay For the rest of my life on this earth And he said to me Well she's wrong And you're wrong And if that's the way you feel We have nothing to say to each other I said then we have nothing to say to each other And that was that you ever fault her for staying with him? No. I think my sisters do. Really? I think so. Why? I don't know, but I think so because I think that as women, I think you look at your moms and you think that they should have made different decisions, what you deem to be better decisions, et cetera. You're looking at the mother, not just the father. I don't look at my mother at all. I look at the man and I'm like, what kind of man are you supposed to be first? Relationships and troubles and relationships happen. It's as hard as it is because it involves your parents. You don't put your hands on her. You're not abusive towards her. It's none of my business. My mother has to handle that. My father has to handle that because you're two adults and the intimacy of your relationship is levels to it. And there's certain things that I don't. It's none of my business as much as it is because you're my parents. Still and all, they'll be the first to tell you stay out of grown folks business where it becomes. My business is when you have her doing your job, when you didn't pay the bills, when you didn't put food in the refrigerator, when you didn't make sure there was heat in the house, when you didn't make sure there was clothes on our back. She's doing your job. And I'm very, very, very big on that. I've always been that guy. I've been in multiple relationships in my life and stuff like that. There is no woman alive that would ever tell you they know anything about me. And I'm going to leave the bills to them. That is not happening. It's not it's just not a code that I live by. You know, I have two daughters. I eat when they eat. If they hungry, it's because I'm starving. I'm not taking care of them until they're taking care of. There is nothing that I have in my life that I did before making sure they were taken care of. And when they get older and they have a boyfriend or they're fortunate and blessed enough to have a husband, it better be somebody that's handling business. Can't meet me. can't come to me because my number one, the number one thing I'm looking for is what is your character when it comes to taking care of your family? Cause you can have a relationship that goes awry. You can get, you can be together and break up. You can get married and get a divorce. What does that have to do with taking care of your responsibilities? One has nothing to do with the other. You have an obligation to take care of your responsibilities. And if you can afford to do even better than that, you should, because this person mattered to you. They were in your life. You can sit up there and say, hey, things don't work out. My father and mother, had they gotten divorced, but my father was a better man when it came to taking care of his responsibilities instead of leaving it up to my mother, I would not have resented him. My sisters would have, but I wouldn't have. If you've forgiven him? I'd say yes because the day I eulogized him was the day and I give all the thanks in the world to my mother who had passed away 14 months earlier and what she had instilled in me and Pastor A.R. Bernard from Christian Cultural Center in Brooklyn, New York who's my spiritual father. I'm not the most religious person in the world but if there's somebody that I lean on that knows practically everything about me. It's him. And I'm dry. I called my sister calm in the morning of my father's funeral. And I say to her, I got some stuff I need to get off my chest. And she's like, Oh God, no, Steve, please don't do this. And I said, I got it. I got to get off my chest. I've held it in. I haven't said much. Mommy passed to wait 14 months ago, you know, and I don't think she's been celebrated enough. And I got a problem with that. So this is the perfect time to do it. So I'm telling you, because whoever's going to give the eulogy, cancel it. I'm giving it. And Carmen's like, oh, God, no. She said, Steve, just remember, what will mommy say? What will mommy say? What will mommy say? And I said, I got it. And it was seven o'clock and the funeral is at 10. So I'm living in North Jersey. Funeral is in Queens, New York, about an hour away. And I leave at eight o'clock to drive to the funeral. And I pick up the phone and I call Pastor Bernard. And Pastor Bernard, tell him what I'm feeling, what I'm going to do. And he says to me, your feelings are your feelings. You can say whatever you want. that's your dad and you have a right. He said, but I will remind you about a passage in the book of Matthew in the Bible. It talks about forgiveness. And I will remind you of that. And he said, you can say what you say, but when you don't have forgiveness in your heart, the only one wearing it is you. I want you to remember that. And so I go to the funeral. and there's a bunch of people that's walking up on stage and saying their words and speaking about my father so glowingly and all of this other stuff. But remember, Hollis is a close-knit community, like on our block, you know, your next-door neighbors and stuff. They all know what's going on. You talk to one another, you see stuff, you know, growing up, all this, so you know. and all of these people were in attendance for my father's funeral. There must have been about 20 people from our block in Hollis, you know, 2 or 3rd Street. They were there. It must have been at least 20 of them. And I walk up on stage and everybody's looking at it like, oh, no. You know, so I walk on stage and I open up by saying, all of you people that have spoken so glowingly about my father, So while it's appreciated, I want you to know you're entitled to your feelings. But on behalf of me and my sisters, we have an entirely different perspective about him. And I saw my sister's boyfriend go like this. And I saw another neighbor go, please don't. No, no, don't do it. Don't do it. And I saw my cousin and a couple of other people in attendance literally go like this. No. And they buried their hands. They buried their face in their hands because nobody knew what I was going to say, but they knew they suspected it was going to be very bad. And I said to them. Your interpretation of my father that he was a good man. That is not necessarily true. And I said he was this. He was this. He was that. and I said and for the last 14 months since my mother passed away I've had legitimate reasons along with my sisters to be very very bitter I said but then I thought about something my mother I said I'm a very popular guy working for ESPN the face of the network by this time all of this other stuff I said I'm one of the biggest sports personalities in America and I said do you know that my mother doesn't even know the network's name she said EPS and whatever it is I don't know what it is I said she knows nothing about sports nothing I said but she knew what her home run was she knew what her no hitter was she knew the difference between a pitcher and a catcher she knew these things And she knew the Yankees. And I said, and there's only one reason she knew that. Because of my dad. The greatest woman that I've ever known had one weakness. And that was him. She loved herself some Ashley Basil Smith. Loved him to her core. and I said and to have a love like that the most wonderful woman that I've ever known to love you like that there must have been something special about you and then I went in to all the things that were good about him things that he had great personality highly knowledgeable about sports could be the life of the party could walk into any room and take it over and have everybody smiling he was a great calypso dancer, you know, he did everything. And he was incredibly talented, great pitcher, drafted by the Yankees and stuff like that, all of this stuff going on. And I closed out by saying, you know, I understand all of these things happen. And then I looked into the cast and I said, but he was my dad and I love him. And that's how I ended it. And everybody was like, wow, you know, they couldn't believe that I said such nice things but it was because of pastor Bernard reminded me about forgiveness and it was because of my mother reminding me of all the things that were worthy of forgiveness and was worthy of being celebrated and that's what propelled me to be able to give his eulogy the way that I did I wanted to jump around to some kind of early impactful moments from your career, the first of which being, you know, before you ever entered media, you're on a full-ride scholarship, your knee blows up, your mom's insurance is such that in order for you to be able to rehab it, you need to leave college to come back to New York. The conversation when you get back to college with Mr. Hinesman, you remember what from that? Everything. I was gone for a semester. Like you said, my mother's insurance wouldn't cover me. It was a Division II school, so they didn't, you know, you had to have your parents' medical insurance insuring you to pay those medical bills because they weren't going to pay it. And my mother's insurance wouldn't cover me, so I had to leave school. By this time, I had my college sweetheart in my life. Michelle. Yes, Michelle. I loved, you know, my basketball, my boys, Marks. Guy, Boris, and the whole crew. I just loved them. I loved being around them. And so I was heartbroken that I had to leave school. And I go back home. I rehab. I take summer courses as well, because I wasn't going back to school until late August. And in doing so, I ultimately come back, and I see Mr. Heinsman. I go looking for Mr. Heinsman. And Mr. Hinesman was with somebody and I'm smiling. I'm looking happy to see him in the whole bit. He had this frown on his face and he always wore this perpetual smile. I mean, he was smiling all the time. And I used to hate him for that. I loved him, but I hated him for that because he used to always give you bad news with a smile. I was like, what's the smile about? It's bad news you're giving. Why are you smiling? I used to tell him that all the time. and on this particular day when I saw him for the first time in like eight months he was not smiling at all and I asked to shake his hand I'm sending my hand he wouldn't he wouldn't shake my hand and it was right in front of a couple of other people which was totally unlike him and he had to leave I said Mr. Hinesman what's the matter he says I have nothing to say to you and walked away from me. And it was really, it blew me away. And it was on a morning. And because of my dealings with him in the past, I knew that they had gotten off like 6 o'clock or whatever. I showed up there at 4, 4.30, and I waited outside, and I would not leave until he came out. I knew what his car looked like. I waited right there for him. And he came outside, and he was like, what do you want? I said, what is the matter? Why are you treating me this way? He said, you really don't know what you've done. He said, you just leave. You just leave. And you go away from school. So it wasn't supposed to be about basketball. It was supposed to be about everything else. And you just left. And I said, I was heartbroken and everything. He said, I had an academic scholarship waiting for you. He said, I called. You didn't answer. and I had to end up giving the scholarship to somebody else. He said, I thought you told me you were about more than basketball. I thought you told me you were about more than just athletics. He said, all of this noise you gave me, but the second that you knew that basketball was being taken away from you, you gave up on life. He said, you're a liar. You can't be trusted. And he said, I don't know how to feel about you. And I actually started crying in front of him. And I'm telling you right now, I can count the amount of times in my life I've cried. And I can count them on one hand. I don't cry much. But I actually started crying in front of him because it really, really hurt right here what he was saying. He was like, you let me down. You let the professors down. You let everybody who believed in you down. All because you had to leave. You thought you had to leave school. You didn't even come and probe and see what we could do for you because it was all about basketball. You were talking all of this nonsense about you wanted to do this. You want to do that with your life. You want to be more than basketball. You're a liar. That's how I'm looking at you. And I just it's the closest that I ever came in my life to begging anybody for anything. and I begged him to forgive me and told told him I would make it up to him and he said to me you want to make it up to me then do what the hell you said you was going to do and be about more than basketball show me what you're going to do not like you got it and so you know again in life If you find these nuggets of inspiration, you know, I can give you chapter and verse. I can tell you where we was at Winston-Philm State. I could take you right over to where this was. This is over 30 years ago. And I can take you to the spot where we were standing, where he told me what he would tell me. I can tell you what time of day that conversation happened. I can tell you what day of the week that conversation took place on. there's things that just happened to you in life that just hit you in a certain way and it stays with you. And what stayed with me, it was like it wasn't even about the academic scholarship and the fact that I had left without checking and blew it. It wasn't that. It was the fact that he said to me, you're a liar. You said that you were about more than that. You lied to me. You lied to Mr. Devon. You lied to Professor Little, Larry Little. You lied to Professor Brookshaw. You lied to Dr. Sadler. You lied to these people. I remember the names because he said them because he knew all my teachers because he was the head of the financial aid department. And that's who we got our scholarship through. So he said all of that. And it was just every name he said, it was like a stab to the heart. And I just I was ashamed. I was ashamed because he didn't say a syllable that was wrong. I did tell him those things and I did renege on it. I did lie to him. I didn't know I was lying. But when he said it, I had no pushback. I had no comeback. All I could do was plead with him to forgive me and to give me a chance to prove that I wasn't telling him. I didn't need financial aid from him. It wasn't anything. It was just he was somebody that had a lot of faith in me and I let him down. because of my words not matching my actions. And I had to make up for that. And make up you did. But I wonder, what did the column you wrote about Coach Gaines teach you? Every truth ain't meant to be told. How so? I was on the basketball team, and I wrote a column about the coach needing to retire. but it wasn't about me not getting enough playing time or anything it was about his health because he had some ailment I don't know whether it was cerebral palsy or whatever I don't know what it was but he would wear a patch over his eye and he was prone to catching mild strokes and I was afraid he was going to die on the sidelines and so me writing for the school newspaper I went into his office and I said, what are you doing? You know, I love you. You've been like a father to me. You're going to kill yourself. And I said, you know, you need to step away from this. And he was like, shut the fuck up. Who the hell are you to tell me anything? I said, let me tell you something. If you don't, you'll sit by and do nothing that I'm going to write an article saying you need to retire. Like, you go ahead and do your damn article. give a s**t. That's what he said to me. That's how he would talk to us, you know, which is why, you know, in this PC world that we live in, it was like, what world were y'all living in? I mean, we got cussed out on the regular, you know what I mean? What are you talking about? You know, so he was, um, he just let me, he said, just go ahead, do what you're going to do. I said, I'm telling you, I'm going to do it now. And he was like, go ahead, kiss my ass, get the hell out of my office, whatever else he said. And I went and I wrote the article that he needs to retire. and so you had people that were absolutely positively appalled that I wrote it you had a chancellor who won't admit that he tried to get me expelled he was going to expel me really say he's going to expel me and years later they asked him about he said I don't recall whatever he was going to expel me from Winston-Salem State okay and coach and coach Gaines stopped him he said he wants to be a journalist he came in here he told me what he was going to do and he told me why leave him alone and that was the only reason that I was able to stay at Winston-Philom and graduate because I didn't realize it was going to be that kind of reaction where they wanted me thrown out of school but there was people that wanted me out of there and coach Gaines stopped them and you had all sorts of other occurrences where you were over the years you have to decide whether or not to run a story you know I think Tracy McGrady would have been a member of the 76ers probably yeah if not for you I don't care about that kind of stuff that was that was my job yeah and I will tell you it was kind of personal because I didn't like Billy King at the time and the irony is that he and I are great friends now I love him but at the time I thought he was an ass he used to tick me off and you know I had news and I told him you know I found out you know you you about to trade Tracy McGrady you got to get Larry Hughes up out of here and so Billy King you know what and I don't know whether he remembers it or not but I tell him I said that's exactly how it happened Billy when I went to Billy and I said yo man I said I'm gonna write this story he asked me you know sister you gonna write that story and I said not if you don't ask not if you ask me nicely not to you gotta ask me nicely it was like Literally, it was a few good men to see when at the beginning of the movie with Jack with Jack Nicholson saying Tom Cruise. Yeah, I get you. I'll get you the paperwork that you need. But you have to ask me nicely. That's what I did to Billy King at the time. You know, I did. That's exactly what I did because he's get on my damn nerves. And so that's what I did. And he wouldn't because he didn't like me. Oh, so I wrote the article. Hey, I asked you nicely not to report on something. Yes, he did. I'll never tell what, but he did ask me. He blew up at Larry Brown. Well, he blew up at Larry Brown, but the things that he said was that I never have repeated it and I never will. But I will tell you that he said some very, very incendiary things and he was just upset and whatever. And the next day he asked me not to write it and I said, you got it. And I didn't write it. You know, your career was obviously taken off. I mean, Philadelphia Inquirer, then ESPN, you have a big show there, even though that only lasted like a year and a half. Quite frankly, a year and a half, a hundred and what was it 327 shows And you had everybody on but you only getting more and more exposure on the network And because of that you know your negotiations with the network they offer you I think a little under $2 million a year. In three years, you're looking at what some of your colleagues are getting, and you rightly think you can get more. Looking back on that period, would you have done anything differently? I would say so. First of all, I would have taken the deal because it's a hell of a lot better than taking nothing. Although probably not taking it ends up being the best thing to ever happen. Possibly, but it was a very, very tough time. You know, my pride got in the way. I wasn't nearly as business savvy then as I am now. And I think that if I had to say that I would do anything differently, I would I would I would have been far more knowledgeable at that time about the business. You see, because of my popularity, because of people screaming my name when I walked the streets or walked into an arena. I thought that defined popularity. I thought that equated to dollars. that combined with my work ethic and the fact that I was a tireless worker, etc., etc. I thought that was enough. But they had the data. And so their attitude was, we're not going to give more than this. I didn't have access to the data they had access to. So as business people, they knew what they were offering, even though one could easily argue that I deserved more. they knew the likelihood of me being able to get more elsewhere wasn't an option for me. So they made me what they thought was a fair offer. I thought it shortchanged me. And I said no, thinking that there would be an ongoing negotiation. Not that talks would be shut down and ultimately my exposure would be minimized before a year later being completely let go. And so because those things happened, I had to really, really look at myself, look in the mirror and recognize the fact that when you don't understand your own business, you don't deserve anything. You should be happy with what you get because it's up to you to have an idea at least of what your value is, what your worth is. It's not for somebody else to tell you that information to their detriment. Their objective is to get the best talent they could possibly get for the cheapest price imaginable. It's your job to make sure that you illuminate and accentuate your value in their eyes that comes close to justifying what you're asking for and what you're hoping they'll give you. And I didn't do that. And I didn't see it that way. And as a result, I ruffled feathers because of the manner in which I handled things. And they ultimately said, we can do without him. And it almost destroyed my career. And this all happened only a short while after you become a father. You're let go during kind of that period where you're jobless. What was your lowest point? My lowest point was, you know, me being unemployed and just sitting there in the months to follow, having no income, living off my savings, believing that I would never be allowed back to ESPN and that one and wondering where am I going to go from here? You know, because my number one fear is not being able to provide for my family. That's my number one fear. I can give up everything that I have and live in an apartment right now if all of my responsibilities are taken care of. I'm not married to affluence. I'm not married to luxuries and stuff like that. I don't live like that. My thing is to make sure that my responsibilities are fulfilled. You want to be able to take I have 15 nieces and nephews. OK, to to to nine of them. I'm daddy. OK, they've never had their dads in their life. I'm dad to nine of them. You know, I've got four older sisters who I love dearly and I have two daughters that are my world. Nothing matters more than them. Nothing comes before them. They are before and after everything because they're mine, you know. And so because of that, my daughter is to be in a position where I'm wondering whether or not I can take care of them. that's a big big big time thing an inspector that's out there okay they're babies you know at the time like this is this is hard and i really really put myself in a hole never realizing it was going to be like this but it was well so i think that ties in pretty well with work ethic if you would mind just give some color to what your schedule used to entail when you were a young journalists coming up and then even just today i live i live eat and breathe my career to the point where folks constantly had to remind me it's what you do it's not who you are because four or five hours sleep like i'm getting up by seven at the latest um i'm going online i'm reading what's on the news, what's percolating. I'm turning on talk radio. I'm turning on the television, seeing the highlights and stuff like that. The visual, you know, in-depth reading, listening, analyzing perspectives, who's right, who's wrong. Why is that the case based on what I want to say and how I feel about a particular subject? And then you're going out there, in my case, going to practice covering the Philadelphia 76ers and stuff like that. And before them covering college sports and John Chaney at Temple and Ron Dickinson as the football coach at Temple and covering high school sports or whatever. It was like whatever it took to be successful, I was going to do it. If I had to work 20 hours a day, I was going to do it. If I had to stay up till 3 in the morning and get up at 6, I was going to do it. if I had to write and do a radio show and potentially do a television show, I was going to do it. No matter what it took, my attitude was I'm not the brightest candle on a birthday cake. I'm not the smartest dude in the world. My signature is going to be working hard because that's what my mother did, and that's what I know works. When you get on your grind and you put in that hard work, good things happen. I don't take a lot of time off. Yeah, do you think you work 330 days a year, something like that? on average 325 to 330 a year i think the only time that i ever took um more time off where i worked less 320 days or less was the year my mother died and that was because she was battling cancer and that year i worked 320 so i don't i don't i don't take too much time is any of that connected to like fomo in terms of like uh you know i hear you talking about how you know if you don't do it you know somebody else is going to who's that too i mean it could be that but i'm my mother's child and my mother was a hard worker my mother worked 16 hours a day not six days a week seven days a week 16 hours a day one week's vacation for 20 years i want to read to you what a couple people close to you told me. First being your sister. Yeah. About your work ethic. Here's what she said. Ridiculous. Get a life. Stop working so hard. Your close friend, Cardell, said he's said this to you before. You don't look well. How much do you need? Why do you need to work like this? What are you avoiding? He has. He's right. He's telling the truth. He said that. okay your thoughts on kind of all of that well first of all i always appreciate it because it comes from love yeah they wouldn't say that if they didn't love me and i know that so i appreciate that um cardell did say to me um i didn't look well because most times he saw me i was sleepy because i would push myself and push myself i i'm not the kind of guy that okay it's 11 o'clock It's time to get to bed and get some rest and whatever. I'm the kind of person that push myself until I drop. Like, I got to lay in bed because I'm that tired. Because if I'm not that tired, there's always something else to do. You know, my attitude is like, you know, it's just like when I was covering the beat. All the reporters would be over here. I'd be over there. Why am I going to get what everybody else is getting? How am I going to stand out if I'm doing that? I'm going to stand out because I'm over here. I'm getting this information while you're getting that information. And I got it to a point where people were following me, wondering where's he going now, what's he doing, because of the stories that I would break in my career as a writer for the New York Daily News and then ultimately as a writer for the Selfie Enquirer. That's just what I did. I was of that mindset. That's how I thought about it. That was my attitude, and I still have that attitude to this very day. But don't you ever wonder if, like, someday you're going to lift your head up from this grind and, like, decades will have passed and you realize, oh, man, I missed out on experiences with family that I otherwise would have had the opportunity to enjoy? No. And the reason why I don't feel that way is because I already go through that. But I know why I go through it. You know, my daughter Samantha had, she had a play. And she wanted me to be there. I've been to several of her plays, but this one I did not go to. Because I had to work during the NBA playoffs. And she was very, very upset that I didn't make it. And I sat her down. And I said to her, I understand. I said I don't want you to get used to disappointment but I want you to experience it time to time nobody gets everything sacrifices come with life and I said the same Samantha that wanted me to be at that play is the same Samantha that wants to go to Disney World next month it's the same Samantha that wants to go to LA it's the same Samantha that wants to go to Hawaii for vacation it's the same Samantha that wants daddy to get this, this, this, this and that. And then I bring a sister over and I said, you're the same Nyla that want this. And I go through a laundry list of things that Nyla wanted as well because they both complained about me missing out on certain things. And I said, I've been in a lot of things, just not everything. Because daddy has to work. And daddy's work is what enables you to have everything you need. and most of what you want. I said, you want me to feel guilty? Let me deprive you of what you need. You have everything you need. I'm not worried about you not getting everything you want because that's not how the real world works. And there are times, it's rare, but there are going to be times when I don't give you what you wanted, but it's because I was making sure you had what you need. And that's what I love about my career because my daughters know everywhere I'm at, I don't go anywhere they don't know about. Any city I'm in, they know about it. They know where I'm at. They know how long I'm there. They know when they expect me back and they know what I'm doing. And I always tell them what I'm doing. that way they could turn on the TV and they say, my daddy's right there. And that's the beauty. If I was doing something else, then it would be different because you can't see me and all you have is my word. And sometimes that's not good enough for a child. And so if you're a lawyer, you're accounting or you're something that's removed from the public eye, but they don't feel like they can reach out and touch you because they can't see you and they can't hear your voice and they don't know what you're doing. Now you got problems. But when you can't do something because they flick on their TV and they see daddy working, it's Christmas Day and I'm in studio in L.A. I had to do that the last four or five Christmases. I'm right in studio in L.A. And they're like, he's not here. Boom. You know what I'm saying? So my thing is, you want to come? We don't stay here. Oh, so now you want me to go work? Go work, daddy. So they went from being upset to saying, Daddy, I see you tomorrow. I want to ask you about your daughters. But do you envision a day short term where you see taking your foot off the gas? I have taken my foot off the gas on several occasions. Okay. Oh, I've done that. They've made me. You know, because, you know, they're little girls. So what do they do? They, you know, it's like when you have daughters. Wait, but hold on. I saw your operation yesterday, and we talked about your ambition. I mean, you're going a million miles an hour. But again, they're down the block. Yeah. So it's like I'm seeing you every day. I'm spending time with you. I'm with you. It's just that I'm doing these other things too. Yeah. But, you know, my daughters will be like, no, you're not. No, you're going to be right here tonight. I mean, every now and then they pull a rank. Oh, no, you're not doing that. You know, they'll sit up there. My assistant will say, you know, or my security will say, we got to do this. We got to do this. My daughter's looking at her face. No, he's not. He's not going nowhere. It's our time. And your assistant, Sumatra, and your security, Juby, both have been with you like 21 years. It's like the three of you guys. They're family. They're family to me. And even when you got laid off and didn't really have money to pay them, they both still stayed kind of part of it. Yes, they did. And that's why they're family. Why do you say you wish you would have had kids earlier? I would have been younger. I wouldn't have been so tired from following them around and running around and stuff like that. Do you know that this is about three, four years ago? Do you know what my daughters did to me? We want to go to Disney World for three days in 100 degree weather. and for seven hours each day because we had one of those tour guides i had to be with them in the park putting on a hat praying people don't see me so nobody bothers me because they get major attitude when people take my time away from them and they had me in there i am a black man You might have thought I was purple after they got, I mean, I was roasting out there in 100 degree weather and they kept me out of there and you would think, I mean, it's like 26, 28 different rides on the, on the like four parks combined at Disney World. They made me get on every ride. And I mean every ride. Every single ride, the roller coaster, the waterfall, I mean everything. They made me get on every ride. And they milked those 21 hours with me outside to the second. Not minute, not hour, the second. We were out there for the full 21 hours. They gave me no breaks. And that's just the way it was. So they pull rank now and they do that all the time. Would you ever have more kids? No, never. It's over. I watched that interview you did with ABC recently. And you said your biggest regret is having not gotten married. Yeah. Why? Because I had children out of wedlock and it was the only thing that my mother was ever ashamed of me about. she was very very ashamed of me because my mother was was a religious woman she loved the Lord and she didn't play that and she knew it was going to be a tremendous load on my shoulders a tremendous responsibility and she was like you've made smart decisions all your life how could you slip up and do this and, you know, mom, I just did. There's no way around it. And, you know, when you are a dad, but you're not married and you're not with the mom, it's challenging because you're not the priority that you want to be when it comes to influencing your children's lives. You have to work overtime to do that, because even though I've been blessed and very, very fortunate to have two women that are wonderful mothers to my daughters. The fact remains that by not being with them, it put me and my children in a very, very difficult position because you're not there constantly having the impact that you want to have. and so my mother knew that would be the case and she didn't raise us that way she's like what the hell and she was furious with me because she knew that I let things that happened at the job and let my mindset and everything distract me from being extra careful and I took my eye off the ball in that regard and she said well you're going to make up for it you'll make you first of all you are not going to be your dad and what you're going to do is you're going to be the best dad that you can possibly be and she said this is not a request and when she said that I made a promise to her that that's exactly what I would be and that's been my number one responsibility ever since but where it gets a bit difficult is as a man that responsibility element comes in leader of the household, being a provider, being a protector, those kind of things. So now what happens is that, yeah, I'm doing what she asked me to do, but I'm doing it from the male perspective instead of from the female perspective. You know, females, you can work, you can you can provide a living, you can contribute to the household, but you're the nurturer. You're the matriarch. As a man, it's like, wait a minute, you got to keep it 100. You can't always, you know, be there for everything when you're out there trying to provide to make sure that your children can have the best life possible. And so because of that, I had to, you know, I would talk to her about these things. And she was like, but you're working hard and you're doing what you're supposed to do to provide for them. She said that you're in your life. You're with them constantly. She says, OK, so you're not a woman. You're a man. that you have a different responsibility, but it's still going to be a challenge. And she felt no sympathy. She was like, you put yourself in this position, you be the best father you possibly can be. If you've got to work overtime to do it, then you've got to work overtime to do it, because that's what you did. You said you were engaged once, but you screwed it up or something. What went wrong? I wasn't happy. I wasn't cheating or anything like that. I was not happy. and because I wasn't happy, I ended it. You know, I recognize it was my fault because a lot of it had to do with my work, my schedule, my mindset. I wasn't the kind of guy that just wanted to sit at home and come home and, you know, be with a wife and kids and lay down and I wasn't that guy. I want to be out there. I want to be working. I want to be on the grind. I want to be successful. I want to be succeeding, taking on new challenges and pushing myself to the limit and finding out what I was made of. But there was a period of time, too, where monogamy just was not for you. Oh, well, that was because I was on the road. Yeah. That was all. I mean, I'm not one that has to have multiple women in my life and all of that other stuff. But I am somebody that needs to be around you. Like, if I'm not around you, I'm not the kind of person that you need to leave alone and think that, oh, yeah, I'm in a relationship, so I'm going to be monogamous. Not then. I can do that now because I'm in my 50s. I've been to the circus. but when you're in your 20s and 30s you ain't thinking like that you're like oh no I'm on the road 200 days out of the year I'm not trying to be in a monogamous relationship I'm meeting women wherever I go but you get to a point in life you grow up and you know that stuff is old news you just looking at this like I've been there done that this ain't nothing but trouble let me chill out you know that kind of stuff but I had to go through that to get to that point if I didn't go through that, then I'd still be feeling like I missed out. You think you eventually get married? Yeah, I will. I think so. Why? Because I don't like being alone. Um, I like having people in my space. I like, I love family. You know, it's not about everything ain't about sex. Sex is important. Don't get me wrong. In any fruitful relationship, to be quite honest with you. But you know what? So is family sort of for Sunday barbecues. So the cookouts sort of walks in the park on the beach. Just a lot of things that that are intimate. That is important to have in your life. And the older you get, the more you appreciate that, because the stuff that you used to want to do no longer suffices. Like I'm I'm so grateful that I'm not one of those guys that, you know what, I want to be the old dude at the club. I love the fact that I've never been that guy. I didn't want to be the young dude at the club. I mean, you go to clubs, you go to parties and stuff like that every now and then. But I've never one that salivated towards that stuff or for that stuff. I've never been that guy. I'm not to me. Nothing pleases me more. You go to a jazz club or a comedy club or you just go out to dinner, to a lounge, to socialize and talk and stuff like that. There's nothing better than that to me. That is peaceful. That is cool. And the fact that I'm older and I know that I wasn't that party animal when I was younger is so much easier for me not to be that party animal. Now, I come home, and there are times I won't leave my house for days. I'm fine. I'm happy about that. And that, to me, is a very, very big deal because if you clamored for other stuff, you'd get yourself in trouble. And I know you've had a special somebody in your life for a number of years now. But it's funny. I was talking to Cardell, and he goes, you mentioned Marshall earlier. He's like, you know, outside of Marshall, it's really the only person in our group who has had a marriage that has been a huge success. Marshall was with his wife, Cece, from the time they were in high school. And he's never thought about departing. And so Cardell said he thinks because of that, there's just a level of fear connected to the idea of marriage. Well, we all grew up around divorcees. We've seen relationships crumble before our very eyes. We've seen people that were married in name only. We've seen it all. And you do fear that that level of stress will enter your life. And you're like, I've seen people lose it because they felt trapped. It wasn't because they were, quote unquote, married and that was it. It was because there was no way out without paying a huge price. And you do find yourself saying, why pay that price? You see the divorce rate. You see the friction. You see people getting sued. You see people smiling and committing their lives to one another forever and ever, you know, till death do us part. And two years later, they're giving each other the finger and saying, I hate you. You know, you've seen all of these things. People like him, people like me and others, we've seen this. Like he said, Marshall's the only one. He doesn't know my boy Jeff that I went to high school with because we all went to different high schools. But my boy Jeff that I went to high school with, he and I are still friends to this very day. Jeff has been happily married for 33 years. ecstatic he's in his pajamas at 6 30. he's just living i mean you don't have to say he says stress is bad for the poor you just need to stuff that he says it's crazy he'll go to get his his his daughter a new vehicle and stuff and they're trying to sell himself to you my wife wrote this check and told me to do this this and this and that's all i know like he doesn't cave leaves everything to her it's like cool people like me cardell and others who grew up and you know had to handle an inordinate amount of responsibility on our own from the time that we were teenagers and stuff like that. We don't know how to relinquish that level of control. We don't know how to concede. You're the one. You have my life. My life is over as I knew it. Here it is. Let's move forward together. We don't know how to just do that. We know how to love. We know how to care. We know how to be the best people that we can possibly be. We know know how to honor commitments and stuff like that but in the same breath um just relinquishing ourselves to somebody else to that degree is a bit trickier and the more folks push the more we repel like if you know i've had situations in the past where it was like somebody wants to be all up under you yeah it's nice i appreciate the fact that you care and stuff like that but you do get to a point where it's like, damn it, I want to go to a game. I want to go watch television. I want to do this by myself. I want to be at peace, being okay. You know, you do want to do that. You don't want to feel that level of suffocation. You don't want to feel, you know you're obligated, but you don't want to feel an obligation. Well, not to mention you're in your late 50s versus your late 20s. That's right. And you're understandably set in your ways. I'm set as anybody would at that stage. I have a wonderful life, but I think the most wonderful part about my life, you know, with all due respect to everything that I have going on in my life personally and professionally, is the fact that I can be alone. And I don't mean without a relationship. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about I can sit in my house or my apartment alone by myself for days upon days at a time. and I don't feel like I'm missing anything because it's like I've got to get up and do something. No, I'm quite comfortable with the life that I've built for myself. Speaking of being alone in your place for days at a time, less scary now that you're healthier. Yes. Although I will say yesterday with having been in your office, there was still a lot of candy. Yeah, but you see the candy is still there because I don't eat it. I don't eat a lot of it. There's a lot of stuff that I stay away from. But just in case I want it, it's there. But most people walk into my office to take the candy, just so you know. What was the diet and exercise like when you were at your worst? And what about now? I was a cereal fanatic. I would eat at least four to five bowls of cereal a day. Really? It would be crunch berries, honeycombs, Fruit Loops, Rice Krispies. yeah i'm serious only in the past several years yeah i mean it was like it doesn't matter it could you know fried chicken lasagna turkey wings um very very little vegetable intake um and i would just work and push myself through and of course burgers big big big burger either cheeseburgers, you know, that kind of thing. So that was what it was like with minimal exercise. Now I'm in the gym minimum five days a week. Most of the time sticks. I do cardio at least four or five days a week. I'm lifting at least five days a week. My vitamins, my supplements, I've cut out about 85% of my sugar intake. I eat vegetables every day. My water intake has improved drastically still needs to improve but it's still a lot better than it used to you know i'll drink water or coconut water like i have now um as opposed to sodas you know and stuff like that so i would do all of those things and you know before i hated the gym now i hate to miss the gym uh before i never wanted to look in the mirror now i don't mind looking in the mirror you know my stomach is down you know i'm slim i'm defined i know i'm in shape i saw when you posted a picture of yourself with your shirt off. It was like, damn, you're in shape. I'm in shape now, but I still got improvements to do. I'm still trying to put on. Now, I just had dental surgery, so I'm trying to put on about 10 pounds. I want to ask you about money. I'm sure you aren't going to get into actual numbers. I'm just going to say what was reported. You've last had, like, I think it was a five-year, $60 million deal with ESPN, reportedly. It was reported that you signed for five years, $105 million in 2025. How did whatever you ended up getting compare to what you were looking for? I wasn't looking for that. I didn't know that would happen until a year ago. Really? A year ago, I hired a team looking at my numbers, measuring my worth, what the market said, et cetera, et cetera. And they came to me and they said, you're worth this. And I looked at the numbers and I looked at what ESPN had given others. I looked at what SiriusXM had given others and it gave me an idea of what I was worth. That's why when you mentioned a guy like Pat McAfee, you know, he says that he has a lot of critics and a lot of people rooting against them and stuff like that. I can assure you I'm not one of them because I tell people all the time, the day he arrived at ESPN is the day that my smile hadn't left my face. Really? Because when he arrived, I knew. I said, okay, that's what they're doling out. Because up until then, that wasn't the case. and so yeah granted he's not employed by them he owns his own stuff he works for him you're leasing his content as Jimmy Pitaro the president of ESPN said at the time it was turn key you put you know you buy his product turn the key boom here he is with his content to put out there more power to him but I was incredibly incredibly appreciative of him and what he and his show brought to the table because you always need somebody to illuminate the market for you, to open it up and show you, hey, this is what it is. There's very, very few people that get to that place on their own. Somebody has to show them the way. Props to him. He did it on his own, self-made the whole bit. But because of that, it's almost like, put it to you this way. If you remember the movie Die Hard I think it was Die Hard 2 when it was the airport stuff somebody the villains that got control of the airport and stuff like that and all the planes kept circling and nobody could land and then at the end of the movie you know when Bruce Willis you know uh killed John Amos by kicking him into or he ended up sliding into the engine or whatever and then ultimately you know what oil had spilled out of the plane and stuff like that or fuel rather and he just lit his match and lit it up and then it blew up the plane when it got into the sky you saw the pilot say there it is there's a light right there right there and sure enough because the plane had blown up it lit up a runway for the other planes to be able to land that was pat mcgafee for me because I saw, okay, this is what I was looking for. All right, you're saying this to this, but here's what he is. So he's coming on at 12 noon. Well, I'm coming on at 10. Different time slot calls for different dollars, different ratings, all of this other stuff. So he illuminated that for me, which is why I was always appreciative of his arrival at ESPN. It's the best thing to happen to me. Okay, it's funny you mention that, though, and it's clear you love him for that reason. I have heard that you guys might not care for each other too much. No, that's not true. That's not true. Not even a little bit? No, no, no. We had. Was there a time? No, no. We had a difference of opinion about something. He thought that I did something that I didn't do. Somebody else had done it. So once that stuff was clarified, we were absolutely fine and we've been fine. Got it. We've been fine. Okay, so again, reported between the ESPN deal and the SiriusXM deal. and then what you've got going on with the other stuff, your own pushing upwards of 40 a year That not true but I understand It clear from being around you yesterday there still some level of money motivation Do you have financial goals? Of course I do. I want to be wealthy. I don't want to be rich. You're both now. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. First of all, I don't have the money. I have to earn the money. I have to work for it. When ESPN signed me to five years, they didn't pay me up front. I still got to show up and earn it. You know, so I mean, the money's coming. It's guaranteed barring a morals clause violation, which is not going to happen. So because of that, I'm fine, you know, but I still got to go out there and earn it, you know. So my attitude is I don't have it. I have it coming, but I don't have it yet. That's number one. Number two, a lot of it from both parties is as a 1099 because I own my business. Well, you've seen my shop and you see I have employees who's paying them. That would be me. So that money is not mine. I have the ability to start a business, which I've done, and to elevate that business with the quality of content I put forth. And hopefully I'll be able to generate in an order that amount of revenue along those lines. But you've got I mean, I have you know, I don't have cameras and sitting at home on my couch. I have a studio. I have a television studio. I can do a television show for my studio tomorrow. I have an engineer in charge and a technical director and a director and a producer and an associate producer and an editor and PAs and all this. I have that. You know, I have independent contractors. I have freelancers and I have employees. You seem very conscious of the fact that, like, over these next few years, there could be the opportunity for you to knock it out of the park. That's the goal. That's the goal. See, to me, I haven't done that yet. You know, I've done that with ESPN, granted, but I haven't done that with Straight Shooter Meteor. I haven't done that with Sirius XM. I'm knocking it out the park, so they tell me. But sustainability matters. Consistency matters. You know, I want to be number one. I want to be best. You know, I want, when you think Sirius XM, you think Howard Stern. And you look at what Howard pulled in or Reese Witherspoon with her production company. That's kind of where your mind starts. That's where it is. That's where it's at. But I also want to be a talent, not just a sports broadcaster, but I want to engage in pop culture and entertainment in terms of content along with that regard. My production company producing scripted and unscripted content. I've already been greenlit for two pilot series, Amazon and ABC, respectively. I've got stuff like that coming down the pike. and you know for me personally um i think about the joe rogans of the world the godfather of podcasting i want to be on that level i'm going to start taking acting lessons i've been acting on general hospital with a recurring role but i'm going to take it a bit more seriously because i enjoy it so i want to see where that could take me so i it's an endless endless list of things that i want to do but not at the expense of things that i'm doing i'm very mindful of where it started what got me to the place that I'm in thus far. And my intent is to never let down the people who have faith in me. And, you know, some people look at ESPN. I say Disney because let me tell you something. I don't get that contract if it's not for Bob Iger. You don't think so? Oh, no. If Bob Iger says no, it ain't happening. You see, he's CEO of Walt Disney. It ain't happening without him. That's not happening. Dana Walden. It's not happening. Jimmy Pataro. It's not happening. So, I mean, don't get me wrong. I have a very good relationship with Burke Magnus, who's the president of content for ESPN. I'm very fond of him. My relationship has grown since he's taken over, and he's been very good to me. Dave Roberts and I have a longstanding relationship with one another as the executive VP, and I consider him the ultimate winner because nobody is more fixated on winning than him. But when you think about Jimmy Pitara, when you think about Dana Walden, when you think about Bob Iger, in terms of the quality of life that I have that I can afford for myself now. It does not happen without them. And it doesn't happen for me personally. I'd be remiss and neglecting Mark Shapiro for William Morris Endeavor. John Rosen is my agent. He negotiates my deal. He's outstanding. But my brother is Mark Shapiro. That's my guy. You know, we go back a long, long way. Frankly, hired me, hired me in 2003 on the spot after I did an audition. A lot of resistance in the room. I got in the car. I got in the car. I finished the audition at 2.45. I got in the car at 3 o'clock. And at 3.30, my agent at the time, Steve Mountain, told me, you have a new three-year deal with ESPN. It was a half hour. That's how it happened. Mark Shapiro has believed in me from day one. He has never, ever, ever deserted me. And he has always had my back. and we are more than just, you know, an agent and client, an agency and client relationship. We're like brothers to each other. And, you know, I know my lane. I know who he is. I'm not Mark Shapiro, you know, and just like it's an on-air talent. He's not me. But where our worlds collide with him being in his lane and me being in my lane, where our worlds collide, But there's nobody else that I would rather have in my corner than him. I love him. I want to ask you about your favorite topic, LeBron. Okay. And I jokingly say that, but I did, you know, you were glowingly talking about him today as you have, you know, so many other occasions. I was talking to your nephew, Josh, the other day. Oh, Lord. He says to me, it's bullshit that Steve doesn't like him. He's like, it's all for TV. No, that's not true. Um, we don't like each other and the world needs to know that, but I don't talk about it anymore because just because I don't know how to, all I can do is put it to you this way. And I'll even say that I hope he's watching when I say this media athlete, that's all in water sometimes. and I got that part. Did I think he crossed the line with the incident involving his son where he was telling me not to say anything? Of course I think that because I don't think I did what he said that I was doing. And I thought that was very, very unfair and it was a low blow. Having said that, time heals everything. And as I see his career dwindling to some degree, meaning that he's not 31 anymore, he's 41, and Father Tom is undefeated and all of this other stuff. It's important that everyone knows. I know how great he is. I know how great he has been for the game of basketball. And anybody who has been that great, people like me have benefited because he gives us something to talk about. And he's provided a level of entertainment that has made an exponential amount of lives better. Just because he and I have a difference does not mean he's not a good man. It doesn't mean he doesn't love his family. It doesn't mean he doesn't love his team. It doesn't mean he doesn't love the NBA. It doesn't mean he doesn't love his friends. And I've made a concerted effort to make sure that when I speak about him, as the years are coming to an end, I'm not going to be known as this guy that, oh, I don't like him. I don't like what's happened between he and I. But I will not diminish him in any way. He is one of the greatest, top two, top three, greatest players we have ever seen in our lifetimes. And what he has done for the game, what he has done as a role model for countless African-American men in this country and beyond cannot be measured. And I will not be somebody that focuses on our apparent dislike for one another. I instead choose to focus on what he's meant for the game and all of us who have benefited in part because of him. I owe him the same thing I owe Kobe. I owe him the same thing I owe Michael Jordan. I owe him the same thing I owe Kareem and Isaiah Thomas and so many of these guys that uplifted the game of basketball because that guy went out there. Him and Steph Curry stand above the crowd. What they've meant, and I'm going to throw Kevin Durant in there too because he's a sensation guy. He's criticized me. I could care less. He just gets sensitive about something from time to time. I love Kevin Durant. And he's a great dude and he's a great player. And we should appreciate him more than we actually do. Steph Curry is another guy, the babyface assassin, what he's meant to the game of basketball. We've benefited from that. We've benefited from that. And I think that if I can sit up there and say I owe them, well, how do I not owe LeBron? I owe him too. And so I choose to focus on that. It's unfortunate that we are the way that we are, but he has nothing to worry about when it comes to me. If he does great, I'm going to be the first one to stand up and say he's done great. If he makes a mistake, I got to do my job. But when his epitaph is written on his basketball career, the only negative thing you'll hear me say about him is that he ain't the GOAT. That's Michael Jordan. But anything else, Michael Jordan is my GOAT. That's not a negative towards him. And that's me viewing Michael Jordan as the greatest I've ever seen with my two eyes, but nothing else. The only, literally the only question I had in terms of prior comments you've made about LeBron, it seemed like you implied that he tried to hurt your career. Did something happen there? I can't talk about it, but that's exactly what I said. Okay. And I've never talked about it, and I won't, other than to say I know that to be true. and that is that is um that's unfortunate and outside of that it was validated when he went on Pat McAfee's show because you went on the show that comes on after me to talk about me and to disrespect me you know tidy whites on and he did this and that and all of this other stuff and like oh really so that's what we're doing so you know that was validation but I've known about several things in the past, but I'm beyond all of that. Like I said, I moved past it. What was involved for you in getting to a place where you could get over, you know, best player in the game kind of coming after your career? Well, I would tell you there's people that helped. Charles Barkley got on me. Kenny Smith, like a brother to me, got on me. You know, Shaq. And then guys internally, Ryan Clark. Swagoo, Marcus Spears. I love those brothers. They're my brothers. And they weren't the only ones. And people who had your back. Yes. But here's the other thing. My daughters love LeBron. And I had to look at them and say, yeah, he is. He is phenomenal. You know, they ain't lying. You know, he's one of the greatest ever. And so, you know, again, you can have differences with people. But if you're a grown up, if you're a man, you're able to compartmentalize and say we might have a disagreement. We might have a beef, but that doesn't mean you should. It doesn't mean you should look at him in a negative kind of way. I might have affected him in ways that other people haven't. And that might have provoked him to do whatever. You know, I don't know. But at the end of the day, I just know that I'm 58 years old. and I'm not interested in walking around bitter and with a grudge and with all of this other nonsense, especially for somebody who has done so much for our community, has done so much for the sport, has done so much for the game. And just think about it. Always talking to the media. Always answering questions. Always showing up when he's the marquee and answering the call time and time and time again. He's done this throughout an illustrious 23 year career. I know what kind of man my mother raised me to be. And for me to try to sully that, what he has done for so many people, to me, that's not how I was raised. And I'm just not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I know that our differences are our differences. And for whatever reason, they'll probably stay that way. but I know that I will never root against him and that I will never be one that contributes to any lack of appreciation that somebody tries to show him. We have a lot to thank LeBron James about and I'm going to make sure that I'm somebody that does what I always do, call it like I see it. And in the end, his career can end today. He is one of the top, in my mind, two, in other people's mind, top three, top five players that has ever blessed the planet Earth. And that is how I will talk about him when he is long gone from the game. I will still talk about him that way. It will not be in any other way than something that appreciates his overall greatness. To what extent have you been discriminated against professionally over the years? Racism is always a part of the equation. When you're black, you're going to encounter racism. That's just a given. Just because I don't talk about it much doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It means that I was raised by a mom that made it very, very clear to me. You don't have the license to use that as an excuse. Figure out a way to work around it and move forward. You don't have to ignore or act like it doesn't exist. But it's an obstacle that you have to overcome. as I've traveled the country, as I've traveled the world, I have found out people of different ethnic groups, white, Hispanic, whatever, I have found that most people are judging you by the content of your character and by your deeds and actions, not by races. And that's a very, very fortunate reality and epiphany to hit me because growing up in the streets of New York, not exposed to people of different ethnicities you don't believe that most of the time you believe that this is what is and always will be etc etc and i think that when i got let go in 2009 and i had that infamous or whatever what you want to call that moment with my mama you know when she brought me breakfast and left her you know the handheld mirror and she ultimately jumped in my ass big time. You know, that was a big, big deal because my mother, her mother, my grandmother, was white. Her name was Carmen Brady. And no one ever loved me more. I mean, she was right there with my mama. My mother was tough love. Grandma, no, brother, love me as Stevie. You know what I'm saying? She took care of me. And she taught me more about racism than my mother, because my mother didn't want to talk about it. But my white grandmother would say, here's what she said. Yes, a lot of us are racist. You're absolutely right. Here's what it looked like. And she'd tell me, you know, and sure enough, I'd go out there and, you know, because she was white, I wasn't believing her because I'm like her interpretation of what racism is. I'm not sure that would vibe or what black people would say. But she's my grandma and I love her. And then I go out in the real world. I'm like, yeah. And black folks saying the same thing. And you're experiencing these things, et cetera, et cetera. And so I look at it and I say, OK. What am I going to do with that? Because I plan on being in an elevated position where you don't hear my voice. You don't see me. I'm going to have an impact. How am I going to handle racial issues? And my mother just said it plain one day. Just be fair. and call it out when you see it. And when you see other people calling it out and it's not the case in your mind, say so. She said, because what you don't want to do is blow into the wind and make the same arguments all the time and it has no impact. She said, everything can't be raised. Sometimes it's people that don't like you. Sometimes they don't like how you act. Sometimes they don't like your attitude. They don't like your actions. And you have to be able to decipher the difference and then speak your truth in that way. And so as I did that, all of a sudden my world opened up even more because I didn't just have black friends. Now it's white friends. Now it's Hispanic friends. Everybody's talking because why? You're willing to say you can talk about it. I can't tell you how many times white folks have walked up to me. Can I ask you a question? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Is this racist? If I thought that, is that racist? Oh, wait a minute. Even if it is, I'm not mad because you asked. So because you asked, that tells me that you want to know and you want to know. So it's a problem you can alleviate. And if you're willing to alleviate that kind of problem, then that contributes to making the world a better place. How can you pull that off if I'm going to automatically assume this is who you are? This is how you feel. You don't give two about me or how I feel. And that's that we'll never get anywhere. But when you're willing to listen, the floodgates of dialogue and communication open up in such a way that you have a chance at making your specific environment a better place, ultimately the community a better place, ultimately this world a better place. And so my mother, my grandmother and others instilled that in me, which gave me the open mindedness to be able to say, I'm going to say this because this is how I feel based on these facts. And a lot of times when I see racism, I'll call it out. We're talking today about NFL coaches, 10 openings, eight hires, not one single black coach hired. That's a problem, especially knowing the history of the National Football League, so much so that the Rooney Rule needed to be instituted in 2003 and ultimately modified in 2022. That wouldn't need to be the case if racism wasn't a problem. So saying that is fine. What I tell a lot of white people that I run across is I'm talking about systemically. I'm talking about a system. I'm talking about an environment that doesn't mean you, because there's plenty of people that don't think like that. Remember, folks was marching in the civil rights movement. There were some white folks. There were some Jewish folks marching with black folks to gain civil rights. Well, how did that happen? Because they didn't feel the way you had some Dixie crats feeling or some southerners feeling at that particular moment in time. All of those things come into play. And when you're able to compartmentalize and commit yourself to judging individuals, on the content of their character, not the color of their skin, as the late Dr. Martin Luther King said, then guess what? You have an opportunity to contribute to making the world a better place. And that's what I try to do. Politics is an area you are increasingly getting into. Tell us you don't mind about the conversation you had with then celebrity entrepreneur Donald Trump off air as it pertained to banks and how that influenced your thinking? I'm doing the show, quite frankly, on ESPN2, my own show, talk show from 2005 to 2007. I believe it was in 2006. He's the host of The Apprentice, has the intro music going, doo-doo, doo-doo, doo-doo, doo-doo, doo-doo. I love that music, right? And so he comes out to that music, and it was great, and he let me touch his hair to prove he didn't wear the winner to pay and stuff like that. And he did all of that. Right. And but we were in the green room and he gave me some advice that I've never forgotten. He said, not just know your worth, but go for it. Go for it all. Always pursue the most. And I said, explain what do you mean? And he said, when you go to a bank and you borrow three million hours, and you can't pay it back, you got a problem. He said, but when you go to a bank and you borrow $300 million and you can't pay it back, we've got a problem. He said, the moral of the story is the more you convince someone to invest in you, the more they must work diligently to ensure your success. Don't come cheap. Make sure you convince folks to make that requisite investment in you because they'll be committed to you succeeding because your success means their success and they have a chance to recoup the investment they made in you. That's how you do that. That was the advice that he gave and I never forgot it. I understand the DNC has looked at you. What's involved with that? Democratic National Convention. I mean, I've had I've had members reach out and call and try to gauge my interest of what I would be if I would be interested in running for office. I have no interest in running for office, but I do have an insatiable appetite to debate politicians on in a debate format. I would never be interested in any office but the presidency. Nothing else. Not a Senate seat, not a congressional seat, nothing. only the presidency that's the only thing that i would ever be interested in it and being a governor or mayor nope nope that's just the state i wanted you're controlling yeah i understand that but as the president yeah you're a bullhorn you're a bullhorn that brings attention to the issues that need to be brought attention to so the states can run their business the way that they're supposed to that was told to me by a governor who will remain nameless but that's how it's viewed. You're sort of like an overseer and a bullhorn to make sure we don't evade the issues that really are pertinent and really are pervasive in our society. So I view it that way. Do I desire to campaign and be on the campaign circuit and running for office? No, I do not. Do I desire to be on a debate stage to call out these politicians for what they have done to compromise this country? Yes, I do. That's where it gets serious for me, because you you can enter debate and then leave after the debate and decide you're not running. My attitude is I want to be on stage with these people and I want you to show I want you to tell the American people why you did what you did. I want you to justify what you've done to contribute to the chaos that's in the streets of America. I want you to look at us in the face and justify the divide that you've caused, the friction that you've caused. What did you do that for? How did it serve us? On both sides of the aisle. Because as a black man, civil rights legislation, 1964, I'm going to ask the Democratic Party. Tell me what you've done for us since that time. You've had at least 80 percent of our votes since then. Tell me what we've gotten out of it, because it seems to me like we still got some of the same troubles. You've given us more access to capital. I'll give you that. But what else have you done? Fair Housing Act, Civil Rights Act, Boating Rights Act, I got you. But what have you really, really done for us? You understand? When you were sitting up there and you were a progressive left, hard left, and you were pushing, you know, transgender, you know, athletes transitioning from male to female competing with young ladies, how did that benefit the black community? When you were talking about cancer culture and woke culture and people were getting dismissed, suspended, or fired for pronouncing the wrong pronoun or something, How did that help the black community? You sure you didn't sell us out? You sure that you weren't doing this to ingratiate yourself with a different voting block? So the black vote wouldn't mean as much to you as it once did. Are you sure about that? Please explain because I'm all ears because it looks that way to me. You're the Republicans. Yeah, you didn't come to us making a bunch of promises. But what have you done? You talk about the American people and you're saying, hey, Obamacare is horrible. Well, Obamacare got about 24 million people, some health care. OK, what did you do? Obamacare was passed 2010 It was implemented in the law by 2015 But here we are in the year 2026 And you still don't have a health care plan How come? What you been dragging your feet about? What you going to do about it? You keep talking, talking, talking Yeah, you're talking about the border Yeah, the border needed to be closed But that was because Biden opened it And Biden had it opened and followed Obama Who deported more people than Trump did In Obama's term in office Over 3.1 million people were deported How come you didn't follow that, Joe Biden? How come you didn't follow that, Democrats? How come it was OK to celebrate ICE at that particular time when Biden was in? I'm sorry, when Obama was in office and you had networks literally traveling with ICE to show you the marvelous work that they were doing. But suddenly Trump is doing it. And now it's a pariah and ICE needs to go and it needs to be completely banned. Why are sanctuary cities existing? Why is that? Why do you get to, you know, implement laws that get you to ignore federal laws? How is that? How does that benefit our country? I'm saying to ask ourselves these questions, to see the difference between a Gavin Newsom and a Governor DeSantis, to see the difference between, you know, Josh Shapiro and Greg Abbott, to know these kind of things, I think are things that enlighten us as American citizens. And I know that I'm no aficionado, but in the same breath I read and I'm a conscientious observer and I care. So when I ask a question, I'm not trying to be cynical. I'm not trying to play the blame game. I want an answer. I want you to answer the question because you volunteered for elected office. You volunteered to represent the American citizen. Answer the question. Tell us what you're doing. Tell us why you did what you did. Tell us how it benefits somebody other than you. Talk to me about those things. I like the idea of being able to challenge people outside the realm of sports about issues that are far more important to people than sports. That turns me on. And the reality is like you're the cliff notes of that is your goal is to have a platform that can influence the outcome of elections. Well, in addition to illuminating. not so much influence the outcome of an election to make elected officials know there's certain people you don't get to get around. And I intend on being one of those people that you don't get to get around. You're going to have to come through this avenue when all is said and done, if I have anything to say about it before you get to that place. Because I know that eventually when the time is right, rather than me learning and just listening and doing it that way, I'm going to ask the very pointed questions that I know the American people are going to want answers to. But it's also selfish from this standpoint. It's made me more passionate about sports than ever. There have been times where I was getting a little bored doing what I was doing. Now I'm excited because of the challenge of having to know a multitude of things and going out there and making it sing. I like the challenge and it excites me every day. And you throw in what you're trying to build with your media company. Yeah. I'm doing it by myself now, but really I plan on building, having investors, having partners, that kind of thing. Because I can't do this all by myself. I just sit in infancy stages, and I did it this way to show my commitment. So whoever gets involved with me will know I'm all in. I'm very serious about it. You mentioned Bob Iger. How often do you guys talk, and what do you think you've learned from me? I think on average we talk about once a month. I love the man. He's a mentor. He's been very, very good to me. And what the knowledge that he's bestowed upon me, the way he's edified me about different things, just watching the way he does things. You know, the conversations that I've had with him most of the time having nothing to do with me, just us talking gives me insight into who I believe to be one of the most brilliant executives in American history. To get insight from that person puts me in a very, very elevated place because I know that when he does something, it makes sense. and to get insight into the thoughts behind some of the decisions he made and what led to those decisions being made really, really, really, really strengthens my confidence because I know that I know what I'm doing because I've learned from the mastermind. Anytime I want to pick his brain about something, all I got to do is ask. And he gives me insight because he knows the conversations are never going to be repeated. and it's not like he's going to divulge anything that deep anyway. He just gives me insight into him. And I think that because of that is where a lot of my confidence elevates. I have my own skill set. I have my own beliefs. I have my own abilities, et cetera. And, of course, there are others that I have listened to that have given me guidance and tutelage along the way. But to be able to sit in front of you, you know, at this moment in time in my life to know that I can pick up the phone and all I got to do is call. And if I need any advice, he doesn't hesitate. That's an incredibly privileged position for me to be in. And you know, again, I don't, this contract, I don't have this contract if it wasn't for him. There's no way. The kind of contract that I have, you needed approval. You know, so he made that happen. Jimmy Pitaro made that happen, who's also a wonderful executive. Dana Walden made that happen, who's also a wonderful executive. And I'm grateful to all of them. But Bob Iger is special. I consider him to be the Michael Jordan of executives. I just view him that way. I've seen him in action. He's given me insight into things that he's done and why. I just think he's the Michael Jordan of executives. He's the greatest ever. How about the most interesting conversation the two of you have had? I asked him one time. I said to him, you know, you've never really gotten on me for signing off when I want to clap back at people sometimes. but I also noticed that it's something you really do. Why? How do you sit there and just take it? I said, I can. I have. But that don't mean it ain't hard sometimes. He said, oh, it's hard, but it's probably easier for me than most. And I said, tell me why. And he said, because I know the truth. He said, all of them are speculating. I have the facts. You're talking about me. If you're talking about me, I know. You're guessing. So, sometimes it's entertaining to watch them guess. Because they're usually wrong. He said, when you know the truth, you should feel emboldened. You should feel empowered. Because you're the one with the answers. And they're looking for them. and I was like hmm and he said that to me on a day where I was planning on going on my YouTube show and eviscerating somebody oh my goodness I had a pile of stuff I was just I was going to wipe the floor with him and I just went back and I canceled the show I gave everybody a weekend off I said don't worry about it I said don't worry about it because I had that conversation with him and he didn't even know what I was intending to do But that conversation with him reeled me back in because it was like, I know the truth. So that's not to say you always feel that way. You always act that way. But knowing that one of the greatest executives I have ever seen in my life, you know, actually, I think he is the greatest executive I've ever seen. I've ever been associated with in my life, knowing that that's how he approaches things. It's something that you want to learn to emulate as best as you possibly can. And sometimes you're successful at doing it, sometimes you're not. Long time coming. I cannot believe it has probably been more than 20 years since I had you on my then radio show. You have an amazing story. I so appreciate the opportunity to do this. It's a very well-deserved and hard-earned life you have. Appreciate you. I appreciate you talking to me. Man, I sat with you. You were in the eighth grade. you were in eighth grade when you first interviewed me so i couldn't turn you down i was like we'll talk about things coming full circle so i'm glad i did it i enjoyed the conversation man thank you sir absolutely thanks for listening to this week's podcast don't forget to leave a rating and review and for more in-depth interviews visit grahambenzinger.com