9:00 P.M with Sepideh Moafi, John Wells and R. Scott Gemmill

Listen up. That means you. Yes, you. We know you're pointing at yourself. When it comes to party power games, we've got a place made for all sorts. From the experts to the drama queens. It's me, the JC. The finance bros. Look at those stocks, lads. We'll stick with slots. It's what we're good at. And not forgetting you. Yes, you, the one listening. Because at party power games, we've got all sorts of games for all sorts of trickles. Eligibility rules and terms and conditions apply. Please come by responsibly. AT&T Plus, CameroAware.org. We are the Nightcrawlers. We deal with the weirdest and the wildest, because... We are the weirdest and the wildest of them all. That is right. And tonight they're really going to be crawling. Now go get some! Hoorah! Welcome to the Pitt Podcast, the official companion to the Pitt on HBO Max. I'm Hunter Harris. And I'm Dr. Alok Patel. It's 9 p.m. The shift is finally over. Season two is over. Kind of sad. We've got a lot to talk about regarding episode 15. We're going to be joined by Sepademo Wafi, the newest attending, and the two executive producers, John Wells and R. Scott Gemmel, to hear their thoughts about this season and what's up next for our crew at PTMC. The real reason was Robbie pushing Langdon to get out of his comfort zone and realize he is a good doctor and he can be back, get back on the saddle, back in the saddle. The doctor the fuck up was just something I had in my back pocket for a long time, just waiting to drop it. Today's shift starts now. What are your big takeaways, your favorite moments from this episode? Oh my gosh, I think that the delivery, the baby, that was like one of the toughest cases this season. And I got actually emotional watching it. Listen, from the medical standpoint, I think that was the most impactful, powerful medical procedure in the entire season. I'm right there with you. It speaks to so many levels. I mean, we can get into that later. Well, look, I know we have a lot to get into. Can we start kind of going through some of the moments, medically and story character moments that really made this episode pop? Oh, mentally, I've already been doing that, Hunter. Starting out with the climactic conversation, calling a conversation, because I'm being nice right now, between Dr. Alhashmi and Dr. Ravi, about this underlying medical condition we got to discuss. You didn't rat out Langdon for stealing fucking drugs. No, but I kicked him out of this department until he got the appropriate help that he needs. And the same goes for you. You've gotten some Monday to let the administration know. I will. I was surprised. I did not know that you could have a seizure without shaking. I did not know a seizure could be just kind of blinking out a little bit. But this was a big reveal. It really was. The writers, the medical consultants, did such an incredible job of building up the tension to this moment and kind of dropping little context clues. What we can now probably say with more confidence is that Dr. Alhashmi is having a focal temporal seizure. So a focal seizure doesn't mean that you don't necessarily have that full body shaking that you kind of think of when you think of a typical, quote, Hollywood seizure or stereotypical seizure. And because of where it is in the brain, there can be really interesting phenomena. So somebody might have auras like sea lights or have a sensation. They may have deja vu, or they could just kind of step away and lose focus for a second. But what I specifically looked into in the research is this type of seizure can originate from somebody who has viral meningitis in childhood, which is exactly what we heard at the end of the last episode that Dr. Alhashmi had viral meningitis when she was five years old and now has this. And the last part I'll add is kind of the sequence of treatment, which she mentions is you can take more medication. She mentions Kebra. Or there are surgical options as well, such as they can implant different devices literally on or next to the brain to control the seizures. And if all this fails, including medications, you can go and then get potentially something called a temporal lobectomy, where they very precisely remove the part of the brain that's causing seizures. And here is another fun detail that throws back to an earlier episode. Any time somebody with seizures is going to get one of these invasive procedures, they are consulted in talking to a neuropsychiatrist. And a neuropsychiatrist is who's really going to be able to help you understand your symptoms and how a potential procedure might affect your language and other neurological function. Sepidimwafi, her acting in this entire portion, not only with the exposure towards Dr. Robbie, but even in getting in the car at the end, stopping crying, just bravo. She is up there in the acting award category with baby Jane Doe. No, I think you're completely right. I didn't know how I felt about this. Dr. Alhashmi trusts Dr. Robbie with this really intimate, really sensitive information about her own health. And it really feels like an extension of an olive branch almost, because this whole shift, they've been sort of butting heads. They've been trying to find common ground, trying to work with each other. And it felt very intimate for her to trust Dr. Robbie with this information. And he almost immediately kind of does a heel turn and really lays down the hammer with her and says, I don't think I need you in this ED. And I like that she brings up, OK, but Dr. Leng did, he was stealing drugs and all he did was get sent to rehab. I don't know where I landed with this. I felt very conflicted. I think it's fascinating to now look back on Dr. Alhashmi from the start of the season and look at things from her lens with her knowing she has this condition. I know it's really interesting. Yeah, yeah. Well, in a more shallow way, I want to look back and see if the dead body in chairs, when he arrived exactly and kind of what he was doing during the day. Maybe to figure out if he was a day shift or a night shift patient. We need to ask the makeup department, too. Like, did they change his makeup? Who's in the background all of a sudden? I mean, because the guy's got like, he does not look alive. Rape kits are supposed to be picked up within 72 hours of collecting them. This one's been here for over two weeks. That's not on us. It's on somebody. So I'm bad enough these poor women go through an assault plus the indignity of the whole collection process. But nobody from the police department even has the human decency to come get these things. Like, nobody there gives a flying fuck? OK, we got it. We'll see that these get put in the evidence properly. Thank you. I love Charged Nurse Dana's fire. I have respect for her advocacy. I think the entire moment of her as the sexual assault nurse examiner is one of the most powerful parts of this entire season. But I needed a little bit more in this moment. It felt like it was just a quick line to address the box. But what do you think? I agree. I needed the detectives to really feel the anger because I would be angry too by her nurse Dana. If I'd gone through all of this trauma and taken so much time with a woman who'd survived a sexual assault and the detectives don't even care enough to pick it up, I would be enraged. I respect that. And I think there needs to be more people who take up this cause and raise awareness. I'm glad that you all listen. I'm complaining that the scene was too short, but at least they've addressed the scene because guess what? Other medical shows don't. No, I think it's very important. There are people who didn't know what a scene was until they watched that episode or heard our podcast. But yes, that is the protocol. And I'm glad people are talking about it. The beauty of the pit. I'm happy that charge nurse Dana also gets her lick back. Yeah, fair. Thought you'd left already on my way out. Hey, I'm sorry that I didn't find the time today to have that conversation. Yeah, that's all right. Seems like you didn't really want to. I didn't. Langdon laying it down. Yeah, so there's this deadbeat dad called Dr. Robbie. I loved this scene. I loved Langdon kind of turning the tables and saying, you're the one who is, who's forcing this standard of perfection onto yourself. Because this is also kind of what Dr. Robbie comes back to when he's talking to Dr. Abbott where he says, it's hard, you know, holding myself to being a standard of perfection, being a role model, all of this stuff. And I like how Langdon really makes him see that this is not perfection that you're showing us. You're not being a very good role model when you're putting yourself at risk and putting your own mental health at risk in every moment. And that he saw a lot of people in rehab that were behaving just like Dr. Robbie was. That was a big moment. Yeah, like some vulnerability from Langdon too and acknowledgement of what, of the time he's putting in and how he's made up or trying to make up for what happened. And Dr. Robbie's still writing him. I don't know if this is the conversation to have in front of patients. I'm just gonna be honest. Like they just have it out right there in the ER. Like maybe go to the staff break room or go in the hallway with the lockers or something. I mean, you can say that. However, Dr. Langdon has been trying to talk to Dr. Robbie all day. And Dr. Robbie has kept pushing him away, making him go to triage, refusing to have any kind of conversation with him about, you know, that needs to be had between these two men. So this is how it has to happen. This is how it has to go down. I feel like there's a patient. If he keeps running away. There's that patient in the background who's like getting assessed and he just has to listen to the attending. And the chief resident just talked about like, who needs to go. I love gossip. I would want to listen to. That's fine, fine. This is a soap opera ER. What's happening? Do you have a condition called preeclampsia? And how did that happen? Nobody really knows actually. It affects about 10% of the pregnancies. High blood pressure, headaches, protein in the urine and swollen ankles. Well, it's a wild pregnancy. So that means no medical care. Then why are you here? A woman comes in to the ED complaining of some complications with her pregnancy, although she says that she's having a free birth, a wild birth with no medicine, no doctors, nothing. And she has preeclampsia, which turns into a clamsia. And can you tell me what's going on here? It reminds me of the measles case from the first season. And it kind of represents misinformation, mistrust of the medical system, complications people don't talk about in a situation like straight up. I see the downstream problems from these natural birds, these wild birds, these free birds, whatever people want to call them. And it affects the baby and their situations, as mentioned in this case, where it can be life-threatening for both baby and mom. And if not life-threatening, can cause lifelong complications. This woman who's pregnant, she has preeclampsia. We don't completely understand how it happens. But let me put it this way, when there's a developing fetus, there's signals sent to arteries in the placenta, and the arteries get bigger in a former certain way to make sure that there's good blood flow to the baby. And in preeclampsia, some of those signals are off. And so the arteries might be a little bit narrowed, they're not properly formed. And what can happen is some early symptoms, such as headaches or protein in the urine or elevated liver enzymes. So those are kind of signals of liver damage. And if that doesn't get treated, that can progress to eeclampsia. So just get rid of the pre. And eeclampsia is when symptoms get so bad, they break down the blood-brain barrier, they can cause swelling in the brain and seizures, which is exactly what we see play out here, what is so important that is mentioned is that this woman says she has not had any prenatal care. And she's doing this on her own. So that means at some point, she must have had hypertension. This is screened for in prenatal visits. Doctors, healthcare professionals catch preeclampsia and they do their best to manage it symptomatically and keep everybody safe. She goes in the ER and Dr. Robbie's line, when she's like, I don't want to medical care. And he's like, then why are you here? That is a question. That is a thought that every single doctor has. When somebody comes to the emergency department, says I don't trust doctors, I don't trust medicine, I don't want anyone's help. I'm glad you're here because I'm going to do everything I can to keep you safe. In this case, to save your baby's life with like, oh, the breakdown in care. And like my last rant and I will stop is this whole concept of natural is safe, natural is better, it's not. Now, if you want to have some of the home birth experience or you prefer different situations, like there are ways to do it and make it a little bit safer, such as having a medical team, having a midwife, which is why Dr. Abbott asks about that. But anyway, I will stop. No, well, I just wanted to kind of double click on one thing. And it's when Dr. Cruz is trying to do the ultrasound and the woman says, oh, no, ultrasounds aren't safe for the baby. And I love the way Dr. Abbott says, not true. That was perfect. That was perfectly timed. Every healthcare professional who works with babies, who works with pregnant individuals, all my OB colleagues, all my NICU, PICU, ER, all of you, many people have had an experience with a home, wild, free water type of birth, gone awry. And it's traumatic for everyone. You go after kind of a rough start, didn't you, little one? Yeah, you did. Well, that makes two of us. I got abandoned too. Hunter, your winner for Best Supporting Actor has a pivotal scene with Dr. Robbie. Yes, so Dr. Robbie's season ends holding baby Jane Doe. And can I say, she breaks the fourth wall, looks right at the camera. Just Beva. Beva, she knows her power. What can I say? No, I love this moment for Robbie. I like that we sort of, the season begins with this moment with baby Jane Doe and it ends with a different sort of intimacy with Robbie holding her, cradling her, says that he would like to be swaddled too. But it comes back around to his story of being abandoned by his mom. That was really moving. I think it's super vulnerable. It kind of like lets it all out. I'm curious how many takes it took to get those expressions from baby Jane Doe because the minute Dr. Robbie holds her and her eyes are wide open, breaks the fourth wall, as you say, like a beautiful moment. And then she closes her eyes and is like kind of snoozing. I'm like, all right, this is phenomenal. Yes, it was very precious. But I think after a day for Dr. Robbie that he has gone through every emotion, he's been angry, frustrated, felt alone, felt suicidal ideation, but that he can end on with some hope, something that he didn't have even a couple of hours ago. The way that he tells baby Jane Doe, you have so many people to love and so many people who are going to love you, I think that he'll come back from the sabbatical. I mean, I don't know, but I am now trusting that maybe his helmet will be on. Yeah, let's hope so. It felt like he was speaking to his former self. He was speaking to himself. He was speaking to himself. He was speaking to himself as a child after he was abandoned. Untrub all the characters that have been talked about, fan theories, medical theories, speculations, interest, I think Dr. Alhashimi is at the top of that list. I agree. I mean, from the first episode when she joined the cast, that was a lot of intrigue. So let's go inside the pit and talk to Sepadam Wafi who plays Dr. Alhashimi. Title CO2 is 70, that's crazy high. It'll come down. Tie down the tube, control all the bleeders, spray an Empa Vepi on a stack of 4x4s. Okay, sets her up to the 90s. Good, CO2's in the 50s, good heart rate. You forgot the last step, change your underwear. How many of these have you done? First one. Are you serious? Thank you for being here in person. This is a vibe. Thank you. I'm so happy to come back full circle. From your perspective, how has it been watching the audiences reaction to Dr. Alhashimi? And I feel like it's been love hate or love, maybe, critical. People are very defensive of some of these characters. How have you felt joining and watching that? I mean, I was kind of prepared for that. For a number of reasons. This is a well-established cast. They've created something beautiful and cemented these characters into our consciousness already. And so being one of the new characters and the only new series regular, the only new main cast who comes up against America's Golden Boy, I knew that I'd have some tough critics. But I also knew because she's a woman and she's in a position of leadership and she takes the reins and she knows what she wants, she knows what she's after. She's very purpose driven and that still rubs people the wrong way. So I was prepared and there were some jokes thrown around throughout the season. I get ready for it, Seppy. But I love it because it stirs conversation. And I think anything in this day and age where we're stuck behind screens that can create community and conversation and, you know, people have a wide range of opinion and takes on each of these episodes and each of these characters. And so I love the fact that it's made this more of a, as some other people have said, like this water cooler show where people are watching it and then texting their friends or calling their friends or bringing it up at work. That's really satisfying. It's a pivotal moment. And I'm just curious about what was going through your mind, you know, as an actor, what was going through Dr. Alhashmi's mind when she was like, this is how I'm going to reveal the diagnosis to Dr. Robbie by having him read my chart. It was a slow burn throughout the season. I learned about her condition in my audition right before the final phase. And so I knew, I didn't know how there would be a big reveal, like how they would play it, but I knew there would be a big reveal at the end or at some point. And so I kind of worked my way back and started with the very basics of who this woman is, how she came to be, not only as a physician with her vast diverse medical background, but also as a woman who's juggling these two identities that are kind of loaded as an Iranian and an Iraqi, what that means having those mixed identities, like having these two homelands and being an American. So there was a lot to unpack, a lot to work through and sort of mine throughout the process. And I knew that as someone in this leadership position and based on how she was written, that she doesn't show her card, she doesn't play her card. She's someone who's zipped up and from the women that I've met throughout my life in leadership positions and specifically women in medicine, you know that you are within a system that is not necessarily built for you and you have to play within the game in order to get ahead. And she has some big, pretty colossal goals and ideas that she wants to implement in this very broken, as you both know, very broken, very fractured system that's just unraveling by the day. And so she knows that in order to get in there, she has to learn the rules and follow them strictly so that she can break them. And so there was, I found this, even though for the most part throughout the show, you don't see too much. She doesn't express too much, but her character, her personality, her inner life is expressed in the most subtle ways, the way she touches and connects with patients or with other doctors, the way she's constantly encouraging her residents, her students. I love Noah, but despite Dr. Robby's consistent, incessant condescension, the way she handles him, the way she deals with him, she's not a last word freak. She lets him have it because she knows she sees the bigger picture and she sees what's at play here. It's not her first rodeo and she knows what she's worth, which is what makes it devastating when she's challenged or shut down ultimately in that interaction with Dr. Robby when she reveals what's going on with her and her health. I'm just trying to piece together where does Seppi Muafi stop and where does Dr. Ahashmi start? Because it's just like this seamless blend. But I think what is incredible is how you portray the subtext of what people with epilepsy are going through, what they're going up against, that tension and the scene in the car. I mean, we messaged about this. That hit me on a deeper level because I see patients who have gotten the traditional treatment, but there's the rest of their life they're trying to take agency of. What type of preparation did you go through to be like, I'm going to portray the other side of epilepsy that is not talked about that needs to be? I think when you approach any role, there are certain things that you get for free, certain information or things that you connect with just very naturally that you do. And there have been certain roles where I don't even need to do much research or immersion because I'm like, I don't know why, but I connect to this deeply and I don't want to get in the way of the work. That was not the case with the medicine, the medical aspect of the show for me because I knew nothing. But there were parts of this character and what lived inside of her that did come for free. But something that I learned about epilepsy through this role was that a lot of people are dealing with this condition and a lot of doctors also deal with this condition and you just learn how to live with it. And it's not necessarily something that's debilitating. I think that we see representations of seizures through more grand mal, tonic-clonic seizures, which are full body. And these subtle seizures that Dr. Alhashimi has, there are little moments where you space out. I mean, and she says in episode 15, people don't notice. They think I'm being thoughtful. And so she's been able to hide this her whole life. And so having that knowledge and working back into how this influences every aspect of her life, her approach to her work, her worldview, her lens on other human beings and other conditions, she lives in such close proximity to her own mortality. And that drives up this urgency of how do I show up every day? And in the beginning, some people were like, oh, it's a bit much. She's in people's faces. She's taking, but that's because she has this feeling that there's no time to waste. Think about it. Experiences that we had when we were three years old or five years old or 10 years old, like little things we're still carrying in us, like the way that we were bullied or the way that we were spoken to or, and having this at age five, you know, how people, and I have a whole host of experiences that I've built out for myself, but how her father related to her after this, how she shattered her mother's heart, seeing her mother in pain because of her, and how she wanted to right her wrongs. And part of the reason why she's so high achieving is because she wants to show to prove that it was worth it, that I will not only deliver a legacy that you are proud of, mom, but I will carry your legacy as well. So, I mean, there's so many, I'm kind of all over the place with this because there's so much that went into this, the specificity of her own backstory, but then with that specificity comes a universality of experience for not only people who are holding this condition, living with this condition, but also people who have had to hide any parts of themselves and their identities in order to feel like they needed to, they felt like they needed to hide in order to get ahead or in order to thrive, you know, in their work or in their personal lives. But the logistical part of it was I just talked to a lot of doctors. I talked to an epileptologist. I watched footage of people. I had access to children having these seizures. So, I watched as many different takes of different people with this condition and seizing, and I read a lot of interviews with people who have lived with this condition their whole life and something that moved me deeply was that it's not having control or authorship over your experience, you know, not like being fully present and then going away for however long, 15 seconds, 30 seconds, two minutes, and sometimes people finding themselves in these dangerous situations where they're in water and they wake up and they almost drown or they're cooking and their hands on the stove or you know that it seems somewhat harmless, but what if you were driving? What if you were driving? So, these are real life dangers and part of the reason why she wants AI because there are human blind spots, not just in people who have seizures, but doctors like you all deserve to be human and have blind spots and have off days where you don't sleep and are tired and might miss something. And so, she sees this as an opportunity to correct or to reduce human blind spots with obviously the strict supervision of the doctors and clinicians and everything. That was poetic. Wow, sorry. That was incredible. That was great. No, it was amazing. Wow, okay. I love that. I love the idea of her living in such proximity to her own mortality and how that really impacts the way that she moves throughout the ED, but also throughout her life. Yes. And I'm curious from there, how do you think that Dr. Elhashmi is someone who has a real love and respect for perfection but also understands that people are not infallible? How do you think she thinks about the Santos-Lengden dynamic where Dr. Robbie removed Lengden from the ED but still brings him back and he's keeping it at a distance? But I don't know, how do you think she observes that conflict? I think the problem is not that he has this addiction. The problem was that they hid the fact that he was stealing drugs and this is a felony. And the fact that he hid it and kind of just slipped it into conversation and then threw it back on me on my face, I think that's what was problematic for Dr. Elhashmi. I don't know. I think she has to deal with Lengden pretty soon after and she's taken it back. She hasn't been able to process what has happened and what this infrom- you know? And so she kind of, she draws some boundaries with Lengden because she doesn't know what to do. So it just creates like all of these threads come loose and she doesn't quite know how to keep this thing intact anymore. She's thrown off guard. No, I like that. I think it definitely makes sense that this is a moment more in her relationship with Dr. Robbie than anything else where she feels like, I mean, if I'm putting words in your mouth, tell me that she's so perfect and so precise and seeing kind of Robbie's sloppiness with this situation. Like, I think kind of offends her. Yeah, and I don't think she's perfect and I don't think she thinks she's perfect, but she strives for perfection, you know? She strives to make things and she knows that we're human beings. If she didn't learn this in the healthcare system in the U.S., she learned it abroad that we are stitched together as healthcare workers. We need each other. It is more than any other profession, I'd say it relies on interdependence and communication and teamwork. And so this idea that one person holds the ER is just false. How would you say that Dr. Ahashmi would assess her first day based on that standard of wanting to show everyone the collectiveness of this effort? Her first day, like when she walks in or her first day, hour 15. I think it's probably the worst. Well, for all the characters, we all have had the worst day. I mean, when we were shooting all of these scenes, it was really important for Noah and I to just like connect and, you know, make contact as actors so that always it's whenever you're doing emotional stuff, it's important to make sure you have each other and it was really lovely to have Noah on the other side of this who was just so open and generous emotionally as an actor. So that he could be kind of harsh and kind of mean as the actor, you know, and there was no sort of conflation of that on set. It was very separate and compartmentalized. We yelled, cut, and we were joking and telling stories and all of that. And then we get in and go to the deep end. I haven't seen these last few episodes yet. So I don't know what, how they cut it or what takes they use, but I just remember doing that scene. It was so fucking intense. We did the first rehearsal and the entire crew was like, like clapping because it was just everything that we've held in everything that, especially for her, as a woman, you and I really don't mean to make everything about gender here. It's just the fucking reality. You have to present yourself in a certain way to be taken seriously. And if you were too emotional, too expressive, talk too much, whatever, then it's like, oh, she's hysterical or shut her up or this is too much. And so for her to finally be able to just like rip into him a bit and be like, I am not your fucking patient. Do not treat me like your resident. Do not treat me like your fucking patient. Have some fucking respect and pull the line about Langdon in two. And that's at the root of this Langdon issue, too, is that it's so much about the injustice of you will cover up a felony for this person. And you won't even accept that this trained professional, the neurologist says, I can work with double coverage, which is usually the case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but usually you have double coverage. You have more than one attending in the hospital. So the fact that he's, you know, so it's not unusual. And so for her to say that and for him to be like, nope, you can't do it. I'm going to expose you. I'm going to tell everyone is like, what is happening? This is everything that I fought against my entire life. And the fact that I can just be reduced to that, like you are sick and you can't work. After everything that I've done, after everything that I've shown, after everything that I've proven to the all the ways that I've proven myself. Just in the shift. One shift. One shift. It's devastating. Yeah. But I mean, the reason why I get emotional is because of her struggle, but because of how it represents so many people's struggles. Wow. Oh my gosh. No, this has been phenomenal. One of the more powerful interviews we've heard. We cannot thank you enough. No, thank you. We so appreciate you. Thank you. I'm happy that we had Sabra on because no one I think has been more controversial this season. I've learned Dr. Robbie, obviously, then Dr. Alhashimi. She got a lot of feet at the top of the season, even, you know, from us a little bit, the charting with Santos. A little bit of that. Sprinkle. Yeah, a sprinkle, a tough love. But I'm really happy that we got to hear from her to close out the season. You know, she represents something very important with women in medicine, but she was also pivotal in raising awareness about so many times. She's got so many topics that the pit has managed to do in just 15 episodes. And one thing I'm really curious about is obviously the show was designed in a way to reflect the nature of what's happening in healthcare. But the show has created such a buzz. And I'm so curious to hear from the two executive producers, John Wells and R. Scott Gammel, about their thoughts heading into the season. And now what their thoughts are now after seeing the reaction. So let's go outside the pit and talk to the two EPs. Let's do it. Thank you for being here. Well, thanks for having us. Thank you. You know, full circle moment. A few months ago, we were talking to both of you before this show premiered. And the season opens with Dr. Robbie driving the motorcycle without a helmet. And then the season ends in this very heartfelt moment of Dr. Robbie holding the abandoned and precious actor of the year, Baby Jane Doe. A lot of symbolism here. Why is this how you chose to end the season in this moment? I think it was, you know, showing Robbie's sort of journey and his own sort of confusion about what he's going to do, you know. And, you know, the idea was, it was a crazy idea, but to have that baby for the whole season and, you know, not ever find out what happens to it, you know, because that's sometimes what happens in the ER and the ER docs don't always have closure to the cases they have. And I think it's sort of symbolic of what Robbie's going through, you know, he doesn't have a closure that he's seeking his whole sabbatical is about that. And it just seemed like appropriate way to end without knowing what's going to happen to either one of those two individuals. We should probably also say that's the actors of the year because there were 12 separate infants. That's true. Because the, you know, we don't shoot it in one day, so they kept getting bigger on us. So the ones from the first episode were too big. Yes. The middle episodes, the ones from the middle episodes were too big for the last episodes. And each time we did it, we had four different infants, two sets of twins that we traded off. We have very limited time on the set with the baby set over that small. So that's great trivia. So when the Emmy is given out, there's going to be 12 babies on stage. I love it. Yes, they'll be smoking cigars now. Right now. Yeah. Knocking back beer. They're all like two years old. I love it. Yeah. A new sort of sag ensemble, you can say. Can you, in this finale, you really lean into the ambiguity. We don't know if Robbie's going to go on the sabbatical. We don't know the status of Dr. L. Hashemi's health. Can you tell us how you think about leaning into this ambiguity over, you know, providing neat, and tidy conclusions for every single character in every single case? Yeah, I think that's just the reality of life. And we try and, you know, be as truthful as we can in what we put out there. And I think you don't always get the answers you're looking for, the closure you want. And I think for some of our characters, that's part of their struggle is we don't wrap everything up in a nice bow at the end of the shift. And I think that's, you know, it's just part of being truthful in the storytelling. That's the thing is part of the reality of what you can do during the course of storytelling for one day with these characters. So, you know, people don't come to full resolutions about the issues in their lives over a 12 or 15 hour day. Right. And so being truthful to the narrative. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I have a question about, you know, sort of thematically leadership has come up a lot this season with Dr. Robbie literally handing over the keys to the ED to Dr. L. Hashemi, but also how to be a leader and how much pressure that puts on Robbie. And as he comes to learn this season, can you sort of tell us what truths or what you wanted the audience to think about or maybe how to challenge them in thinking about leadership and mentorship? Boy, that's a tough one. You know, I think, I don't think of it in terms of that specifically. It was really about Robbie's journey, but I'm sure that's part of it, you know, in terms of his, you know, part of his angst was leaving the ER in someone else's hands, you know, and some of that's legitimate and some of its ego, you know, that he's, it's, he considers it his ER and even Al Hashemi sort of takes him to task on that at one point because he keeps saying, my ER, my this, my that. But I think he takes so much ownership in the hospital and specifically his emergency department that, you know, he's reluctant to leave. And part of that, I think, is his own insecurity. I think Robbie has gotten to a point where his, his whole life is wrapped around the emergency department. And outside of that, I think he has a sort of a crisis of consciousness in terms of what, who he really is, you know, he sees himself as a doctor. And I think a lot of his personal life has suffered because of it. And part of season three will be about seeing him trying to re-engage with that aspect of his, his life. Yeah, I think we also live in an era when whatever your political persuasions were suspicious of leadership. And, and I think that part of what the show is doing well is simply showing simple integrity and leadership and competency and leadership over science. And we have real questions about competency and science and everything that happened to everyone throughout COVID. And so the show being able to kind of just say, here are competent people who are, have training and who are experts at what they do. And they're trying to, they're, they're not infallible, but they're trying to show that they care is important sort of thing to put out into the world. Were there any episodes or moments where you both were curious to see how the audience would react, what the reception would be, what the debate would be? I think we feel that way. Almost every story we tell to some extent, it's certainly how the ICE episode was going to be received. That was, you know, there were some questions about how well that was going to go over. But I think, I think we did a very fair and accurate portrayal. And I think the reception was, in most cases, fairly benign. I think people thought we did a good job, but it wasn't as controversial as, as we had maybe thought it could have been. Part of that's because we shot it before what happened in Minneapolis. So in contrast to what happened, you know, a few weeks after we actually shot it, it seemed fairly mild. But the issues are real. You know, there have to be places in which the sacred spaces, spaces which can't be intruded upon by, by immigration and custom enforcement, no matter how appropriate it is, whether you believe that they should be enforcing or not enforcing, we have to have spaces for all of our health, for all, for public health, where people can go and be seen and not be afraid, or else we endanger everyone. And I think there are a number of issues like that, that the show has tackled thoughtfully and tried to show a lot of different points of view. But ultimately, what's happening in the country, the difficulties that are going to now, we're going to start to see more and more with the loss of rural hospitals with people, because the work requirements, people no longer being able to get Medicaid. That's all going to fall on the shoulders of the public health system and particularly the urban public health system. So you're going to continue to see a lot of discussion of that because it's a real thing. It's not something we're making up. It's not a political statement. It's the truth about what some of these choices that we've been making as a country. What the truth is about the impact that it's going to have on the people we expect to actually take care of us. There's a bittersweet insight to the show. There are people who didn't know what a sane was and didn't know how sexual assault survivors are treated in ER. So the show's done a lot to amplify this conversation. And it's been amazing, I can say, to see all the articles that have come out about these topics. The show is almost predictive of what the national conversation is going to be. And that is a nod to the writers and the people who are putting in the time. And the research, the extraordinary amount of research you do. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, it's really about when we talk to all the experts and ask them, you know, what keeps them up at night, what, you know, messages would they like to be out there? And when they tell us what's bothering them, what they worry about, all we do is sort of extrapolate it to the next, you know, stage. And that's how, you know, it sometimes seems like we're a little, you know, omniscient with, you know, the vaccine, the measles outbreak and things like that. But those were inevitable. If you talk to the experts, it was just a matter of time. I do have to ask about, you know, secretly one of my favorite moments, Dr. The Fuck Up from Robbie to Langdon. Can you tell us about that little moment? He is progressing, Dr. Langdon. What is your plan? Uh, Nero, Shukla. This is right here right now. This guy's going to be a living head if we do nothing. I could paralyze him. Dr. The Fuck Up. Yeah, that was supposed to be in the first season and never got around to it. I just wanted to say that to somebody because I thought it sounded cool. And we really wanted, you know, part of Langdon coming back after rehab was, you know, having some ring rust on him and not sure if he's ready to be back and really seeing him sort of lose his confidence and flounder a little bit and then having Robbie really push him almost to the point of being inappropriate. You know, I think at the time you're wondering if Robbie's being an asshole to him. You know, and he sort of is, but he's also, I think he thinks and he knows that Langdon pulled this off. And if he doesn't push him to get past this fear, he's never going, you know, it's going to be months or he may never get back there. So the real reason was Robbie pushing Langdon to get out of his comfort zone and, you know, realize that he is a good doctor and he can be back, get back on the saddle, back in the saddle. The Doctor The Fuck Up was just something I had in my back pocket for a long time, just waiting to drop it. What a line to have in your back pocket. I love it. Exactly. One of my favorite things was in the preeclampsia that turned into a Clampsia story. You had those greatest sides from Abbott about how many women actually die as well. Oh yeah, life expectancy. And, you know, and saying in the position in that episode, in this episode isn't that women shouldn't use burtulas or midwives or anything. It's that you have to have prenatal care and you have to be aware of the dangers. And there's a lot online. You're talking about this in the same way people talk about raw milk. I've just given you some of my opinions in one sentence. But, you know, there are real dangers and there's a reason why if you go to cemeteries that have tombstones for 100 years ago, about a third of them are infant that don't even have a name on it. So, loved all of that that you wrote. Yeah. We were so impressed by throughout this season. We saw many different characters, arcs and stories, but the medical procedures and learning from the prop, the prop department and designers about how these procedures were actually done. I know you can't pick favorites, but do either of you have a favorite medical procedure or a procedure that when you finally saw it on camera blew you away this season? Well, I think the emergency historotomy was pretty impressive that we did in 15. And that took a lot of time. It's so easy for me to write it. It's so hard for him to direct it. So I feel a little badly because that took a long time, but it was, I mean, how many people? I mean, it takes dozens of people to pull that off, you know, and to the craftsmanship. And, you know, we have great doctors, Dr. Joe and Dr. Mel, who are helping us and our doctors who are on the set who make it look so realistic. But there were problems with where we put the goop on the silicone baby. And then when we put them in the amniotic sack, then all the amniotic fluid would wash all the gunk off. So then we had to, you know, they had to figure out a way to put gunk on the baby and keep it on the baby, you know, within the sack. And all these things you never think of. We had four uteruses. And so we could only cut them so many times. Sometimes it weren't cutting. We couldn't actually get through the uterus. So we actually had to punch a hole in it, then pretend it wasn't there and try and keep it in and then cut it. Yeah, it looked great when it was done. Yeah, it was a magic of television. But it took about three days to do, so. Oh, incredible. This is my last question. I want to know what can you tell us about season three, if anything, or where are you in the prep stages? We're just sort of in the beginning, you know. All the writers would just let them go for the day. You know, it's going to be about, you know, Robbie returning, what has transpired in the time he was away. What's his journey moving forward? And we have a lot of things planned for everybody. But we're still in the sort of initial stages of figuring things out. But it's going to be a good year. We've got some really fun stuff planned. The process right now is, this part of the season is where we do talk to all the experts, you know, in every kind of aspect of medicine that we're interested in portraying and new stories. And life goes on in the Pittsburgh Medical Center. This medical professional feels seen, and I've never been more motivated to doctor the fuck up. So thank you both. Thank you guys. I appreciate that. Thank you. Incredible. Thank you. I hope there's a little bit of a moment to like raise a martini and chill for a bit before everything gets out. I like that idea. Amazing hearing from John Walls and our Scott Gemel. But like we have some end of season reflections to Hunter Harris culture critic extraordinaire. Okay. So I'm curious if we just like have a couple of moments here to talk about some little highlights from the season. First question, are there moments or details from this season that now when you look back on them feel more important than when you first saw them? I think the big one was Robbie asking what occurred, a house sit for him. Because in the moment I was, listen, thinking about what he said, like that kind of throwaway line about Abbott doing naked yoga. That was like funny. But I feel like, you know, if you're a very attuned water, that was maybe the first instinct, the first, you know, suggestion that maybe Robbie isn't planning to come back from this motorcycle trip. Oh, that was a good one. My three quick ones. Okay. I think the generative AI was so much more than a tech conversation and tapped into this humanity and medicine and humans role. An obvious answer I feel like is Dr. Robbie with no helmet. I didn't realize that was going to be such a pivotal foreshadowing heading to episode 15. But then also baby Jane Doe, like not only does she get like this, she gets the scene with Dr. Alhashimi's first seizure. She gets Santos in there singing the lullaby. She gets, Pediatrics makes an appearance finally in the show, a very short lived appearance. And then, you know, she's got this pivotal moment with with Dr. Robbie when he opens up to her. This is why she gets the Oscar for best supporting actor. Well, no Oscars for TV, but totally. I like what you're thinking. The Emmy for best. But no, I like that she's kind of in the through line through what you kind of can track people's emotional well-being growth this season. I got another one for you. Okay. From your perspective as a TV writer, culture critic, are there is there anything that you took away from the season? Anything that's going to influence how you approach or judge other shows? Ooh, I like that the pit is not a show that there aren't really like alliances or allegiances. Like they really keep you guessing about every person. And I like the idea that, you know, Dr. Santos can be like one way, one episode and then can kind of redeem herself. That Mel can be, you know, really freaking out over Becca having sex. But then again, you see like the inner loneliness that she's maybe covering up. It's like a very, I think that's like how real people are. People are good and bad at the same time and make mistakes and are fallible. And I think the pit does a really good job of showing that kind of nuance. Okay. Question for you. Uno reverse. Uno reverse. Is there something that you've seen on the pit or in thinking about this season that might change how you practice medicine, how you approach patients or even in your healthcare advocacy work? Oh, good question. I don't even want to say might change. I will say has changed. Oh. Healthcare advocacy work, you know, in my practice as a physician, everyone in the pit is so real with their patients and they speak to them like they're their friends. They open up to them. They share normal stories like that just reminded me just be a human. We're not talking down to people. We're all racing the same race. Favorite procedure. Oh, has to be the slash trick or the, oh my gosh, what is the thing with LinkedIn in the neck? Oh, the cervical spine reduction. Yes, the cervical spine reduction. Yes. Blind, closed. What is the closed reduction? Yes, that was incredible. I feel like mine is cliche because it's the season opener with the open thar thorecotomy and the hyalur flip. But you see it and you're like, this is really, this is amazing. This is a great setup. And then as we did the podcast, I started to appreciate that scene more. Not only does every character have some type of small role in that scene, you get a little bit of character development. Like there's so much detail to that scene. I'm like, that was like, that was like television medical perfection. Hmm. Okay. Last question. What do you want to happen next season? Who do you want to see? What do you want? What do you want to see? I'm excited to see, I mean, from season one to season two, everyone basically went up one year in training. I'm excited to see what fellowship people choose, what residency, what's going to happen with Javadi, where's Ogilvy going, where's Joy going? Are they still going to be sticking around? Is Dr. Robbie coming back? Like there's these questions. I'm also excited to see how the pit continues to elevate conversations in healthcare. I'd like to see more conversations about women in medicine, but I don't know what shenanigans they're going to bring up this time. I wasn't expecting a waterslide accident or a cyber attack. Yeah, no one was. I think that I want to see, I really like the sort of non-medical characters on the pit, like the security guards, like the, I mean, they are in medicine, but the ambulance drivers. All of those characters, I think, really build out the world of the show, environmental services in a way that I think is, really shows how, as Sepaddo was saying, it's like a community effort. Medicine is something that we're all doing together. It's not just one person's ED. I think that's, so I think what you just said is actually there's no right or wrong answers, but I think that's the right answer. Like that's actually what the answer should be, is the show has done such a great job of highlighting characters. And I totally, totally commend you and agree with you there, because I would love to see more of the pharmacists, respiratory therapists. I was going to say the pharmacists. Peds, you had like two minutes in the show, like show up, go see Baby Jane Doe. But, okay, well, I also want to see, I want to see more of Javadi coming into her own and thinking about mental health, especially because, I mean, there need to be multiple interventions in that ED. And I think she's the woman who can change it. She's the one who starts the program. Hunter, when I first told people about the podcast, everyone just kind of said, oh, it's going to be like a medical podcast where you explain things, but it has been a sincere joy with you. Thank you for keeping me in check. Tell me when I'm boring. Tell me when I actually sounded like a real doctor, but also for adding so many layers about the culture, the complexity and the characters to the show. Oh, thank you. Look, I've had the most wonderful time getting to know you. You are my favorite doctor beyond Dr. Murphy, my pediatrician, who I still adore and my dermatologist, but don't tell her because I need to see her next week. I'll take third place in that list all day long. Thank you for being effortlessly cool also. Well, thank you for really being patient because I don't know anything about medicine and I am so thrilled that you are such a patient and kind teacher. Ah, fist bump. That's it for today's episode of the Pitt podcast. That's it for the entire season. I can't believe it's already over, but this has been a passion project. It's been amazing. We've loved hearing from all of you, not only about the Pitt podcast, but about healthcare in general. This community is awesome. We hope we'll get the chance to do it again next season. You can watch us on HBO Max or listen wherever you get your podcasts. The Pitt podcast is a production of HBO Max in collaboration with PRX. The executive producer of PRX is Jocelyn Gonzalez. Our managing producer is Courtney Florentine. Our editor is Lucy Perkins. Our production managers are Ebona Choa and Toni Carlson. Our video producer and editor is Anthony Q. Artis with assistant editor Damon Darrell-Henson. This show is engineered by Tommy Bazarian. Special thanks to Joe Carlino. The executive producer of HBO podcast is Michael Gluckstat. The senior producer is Allison Cohen-Cerococci and the associate producer is Aaron Kelly. Technical director is In San Quang. Special thanks to Podstream Studios, Kristen Martini, HBO Max Concept and Design Studio, Emily Servo-Dedillo and Ian Fox. I'm Alok Patel. And I'm Hunter Harris.